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I should not have to have the Book of Galatians to know that this passage is supposed to be taken figuratively. What if the Roman church did not have the book of Galatians yet. How would they know to interpret it ? Especially since the there is no reason in the text that this is supposed to be taken figuratively

@@jasonsexton8682 It would be as if Kamala Harris came out today with blue-colored MAGA hats. With the overwhelming pervasiveness of that slogan, there’s no reason for any modern person to misunderstand its context. If we don’t keep up on the context for the next 2,000 years that’s our fault, not Harris’ And Paul gives us 6 or 7 of them to us in a row just to be sure we got them. But also, since we do have the book of Galatians, and Paul spelled it out SO well explicitly for us, it’s really our fault for not knowing better.

The purpose of election is that maybe God maybe glorified, that is why all things exist.

@@jasonsexton8682 Yes. As Paul says, he raised them up so that his name be declared in all the Earth.

John 10 starts off with Jesus by describing himself as the great shepard. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. We see here that Jesus says he calls to his sheep by name and leads them out this is before he is the door in vs 7. 7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. Why did the sheep not listen to them? Because they are not their shepard, but we see that Jesus is both the Shepherd and the door. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. We see Jesus start talking about the inclusion of the Gentiles into the one flock with one shepherd. The group of verse tells us that Jesus knows his sheep and they know him and the other sheep from the world will listen also. Once again the crowd thinks Jesus is crazy like in chapter 6 and so they ask him if he is the Christ. 24 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” Like chapter 6 Jesus is dealing with the unbelief of the Jews and says I told you I am the Christ but you do not believe. The reason they do not believe is because they are not Jesus’ sheep. Had they been his sheep they would have believed and followed him. Notice it does not say you're not my sheep because you do not believe. It is clear from the passage that only the sheep believe because his sheep hear his voice and they follow him just like vs 3-4 and he gives them eternal life. These sheep are given to Jesus by the father just like in chapter 6. Again it is 100% our responsibility to respond to the calling of the great shepard and there is only one way to eternal life and that is the door of Jesus, but we respond to the calling because we are his sheep and we know him and he knows us and those who do not respond, do not respond because they are not his sheep.

I guess this is more of you having a deeper understanding than everyone else. @TheRomans9Guy • 1 month ago @jasonsexton8682 I understand. And I come across that way because I’ve done the work to figure this out. All the way through. Someone who is on the far side of the break through always sounds different/arrogant/prideful to one who is still in the darkness. But I’m ok with that. Once you see the breakthrough it’s crystal clear. The errors are so glaring it’s inconceivable that people still believe them. That’s where I’m at.

Not everyone is elect, obviously Esau was not. This election was not based on faith, but on God's call. Just like you think every one is justified before God and I would whole heartily disagree with that. As do most bible teaches. I am not sure I have ever heard some teach that every one is justified. Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

I wanted to spend a whole lesson on it

We are going to have to disagree just like you think everyone is Justified. @jasonsexton8682 You’re perverting Romans 5:18. I know you have to do it because of the systematic theology you hold to, but Paul is distinctly saying all people are justified. I wish you would reconsider your adherence to your systematic. It’s holding you back from the word of God.

Not really why you think this, since the gentiles are not mentioned until v 24, it would make much more sense to explain it the way I did,

I don't disagree with you some of the shift to the Jews may have been to the fact that he realizes that the Jews are not going to like that Paul was including the gentiles in the promises of romans 8, but I think it is more than just expecting an argument from the Jews like in other areas of the Romans (like chapter 2, 3, 4, 6 (not that those are all Gentile and Jew problems)) and other areas in the bible, because this seems to be far more than just an argument of why the gentiles should be included and is a very passionate plea of his heart, so that is why I think, as he ponders what is said in romans 8 he feels the weight of what his kinsmen are missing out on. I agree both Gentiles and Jews are chosen by God, but it almost seems that you make a jump in your argument from gentiles and Jews “are all chosen people of God” to “no one is not chosen” meaning every individual. If that is the case, that is a big jump. Especially since you Group the chosen with those who are foreknown, called, Justified, and glorified. Which would be indicating that every individual is going to be justified and glorified teaching universalism. If you are trying to say that romans 8:28-29 is specifically talking about the Jews or the gentiles as a group, there's no reason from the context to believe that would be the case as above and below are very specifically talking about those who are in Christ and have the spirit and putting to death the deeds of the body. I am going to assume that is not what you are meaning but that you mean that God chooses every individual for the possibility of salvation, but then you would need to detach every individual from the foreknown, called, justified, and glorified. Included a few verses below that show that not all are granted, Drawn, That only his sheep believe and come, And that the gospel is veiled to those who are lost, And though many may be called only a few are chosen. John 6:42-44 (ESV): 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:65 (ESV): 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” John 10:24-30 (ESV): “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” 2 Cor 4 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants[c] for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

@@jasonsexton8682 Hi Jason. It is a big jump, and I am absolutely claiming it is the teaching of scripture. As the name of my channel suggests, this is my particular area of study. I’ve written a small book on this already and am working on a much larger one. Pauls teaching, in several instances, especially including Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 1-3, is a correction of Jewish theological errors. To understand Paul’s correction it is imperative to understand the precipitant error. The Jews believed (as they still believe) that their nation was chosen to be God’s people, and that all other people were not chosen and are not God’s people. It’s in error in at least a couple important ways, but that is and has always been their core belief. Thy believe all non-Jews are just…sub-human. It’s this ridiculously short-sighted error that Jesus corrected and Paul continued correcting. Their message is that yes, God chose the nation of Israel first, but he didn’t not-choose everyone else. He just chose them later, and in a different way, through Christ. I understand you’ll be hesitant to see and understand this very different view point because the initial error is so repugnant to digest in the first place, but this is definitely what Paul is teaching in Romans. He is not talking about the chosen people being from Jews and Gentiles, he is talking about all Jews being chosen first, but all Gentiles also being chosen. See Rom 5:18-19, 11:32, Ephesians 2:11-16 and 3:6.

@@jasonsexton8682 Your understanding of the passages you present isn’t complete yet. The John 6 passage is often cited by Calvinist teachers in support of their theology, but it’s a shallow understanding. John 6:42-44 that you quote has Jesus saying no one can come to the father unless the father draws them, but it doesn’t say the father only draws some people. Because he doesn’t, he draws all people. Jesus’ words are an indication of man’s lack of authority, not God’s lack of action. And he’s right of course. John 6 is largely about Jesus defending his authority from God. It’s not about election at all. Jesus never talks about a group of people being unelect. It refers to Judas Iscariot in verse 65, but that’s hardly proof of the entire proposition of Calvinism. Even non-Calvinists agree God can overrule man’s will if he chooses, he just hardly ever does. What’s more, count the number of times Jesus implores his audience to take the action to surrender to God and have faith. Just in John 6 it’s something like 13 times. John 6 agregues against your position not for it. John 10 is even less so. The sheep are not Jesus’ sheep…because they don’t listen to Jesus, not because they were predestined to be reprobates from before the beginning of time. In verse 9 Jesus makes it clear that his sheep choose to enter through his gate. It’s the sheep doing the choosing. Calvinism is rebuked.

@@jasonsexton8682 Hi Jason. It is a big jump, and I am absolutely claiming it is the teaching of scripture. As the name of my channel suggests, this is my particular area of study. I’ve written a small book on this already and am working on a much larger one. Pauls teaching, in several instances, especially including Romans 9-11 and Ephesians 1-3, is a correction of Jewish theological errors. To understand Paul’s correction it is imperative to understand the precipitant error. The Jews believed (as they still believe) that their nation was chosen to be God’s people, and that all other people were not chosen and are not God’s people. It’s in error in at least a couple important ways, but that is and has always been their core belief. Thy believe all non-Jews are just…sub-human. It’s this ridiculously short-sighted error that Jesus corrected and Paul continued correcting. Their message is that yes, God chose the nation of Israel first, but he didn’t not-choose everyone else. He just chose them later, and in a different way, through Christ. I understand you’ll be hesitant to see and understand this very different view point because the initial error is so repugnant to digest in the first place, but this is definitely what Paul is teaching in Romans. He is not talking about the chosen people being from Jews and Gentiles, he is talking about all Jews being chosen first, but all Gentiles also being chosen. See Rom 5:18-19, 11:32, Ephesians 2:11-16 and 3:6.

I appreciate the time that you have put in this area of study and that you have put it into a book, however just because anyone writes a book does not make them correct and does not afford them the ability to make jumps in exegesis when it is not warranted. There are many many books written on Romans 9 by very intelligent and spiritual people on both sides, but that does not make them both correct. I do agree Paul is addressing an error in the belief of Israel, but it is a 2 fold error right now he is dealing with the fact that they think just because they are Jewish and they have all the blessings from vs 4-5 that means they are going to heaven (the other is that gentiles have no part). Paul addresses the problem that it appears God word has failed the Jewish people because they think they have all the blessing of v 4-5, in reality the word of God has not failed because “not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring” As far as all gentiles being chosen I think verses like Acts 13:48 (ESV): And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. It would not seem that all gentiles are chosen for salvation in this case not all Jews or Gentiles based on Matthew 13:49-50 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. I do agree that individuals both Jews and Gentiles are chosen, but not that every individual Jew and Gentile are chosen. Based on your statements : ‘Romans 8, that the Gentiles have also been foreknown, called, blessed, glorified, along with the Jews so that it can now be seen that ALL people are chosen by God. No one is NOT chosen.” and “He is not talking about the chosen people being from Jews and Gentiles, he is talking about all Jews being chosen first, but all Gentiles also being chosen.” I am not sure why you exchanged the word justified with blessed in your first statement, when the KJV, ESV, and NASB all translate it as justified and the word means to make righteous. The only conclusion I can come to with the statements above is that you believe all people are called and chosen and justified and glorified. The more we send messages the more I begin to think that you are a universalist and believe that everyone is going to heaven.

Hey thanks for the comments. I listened to the place you mentioned and I do agree with you about what I said. I should not have said work of faith. I did not mean that faith was a work, it was a bad word choice. I will make sure I correct it this sunday. I think there is a misunderstanding that is often made when a reformed person is speaking to a non reformed person when it comes to faith being or not being a work. The first thing is that there are so many variations on both sides of these issues. It’s ironic, as yesterday someone in my class asked if I thought faith was a work (he is not reformed). My answer was no, not a work as in a work of righteousness or something we earn to merit salvation and as far as romans 3 I agree, faith is not a work of the law in any way. It is just the opposite: it is a humbling and an emptying of self while accepting the work of righteousness from Christ on the cross. Where the disagreement occurs is a non-reformed person stops there, but a reformed person says “but you humbling yourself is you doing something and how is it that you do it”. We would say that it is a work of the spirit. Almost everything comes back down to, does romans 1 (among others) teach that all man suppresses the truth and thus God gives them over to their sin. That none are righteous, no one understands and no one seeks for God (romans 3). That without the spirit, unbelieving man can neither please God nor submit to God's law (romans 8)( I am sure you know all the verses as well as anyone). On the prodigal son I would say that yes he humbled himself, but when it says he came to himself I believe that it was the spirit calling him and he responded in faith. Now whether you want to say that was him being regenerated or just the Spirit performing a supernatural calling that is another discussion that not all reformed people agree on. (see Flowers and Robert Wiesner video ruclips.net/user/liveZg-b94opxGg?si=O_MpwsXNyMIWMG_f) I am sure that you believe that the Spirit calls everyone in that way like in John 12:32 that Jesus will draw all people to myself, but in the greek there is no men or people it is only draw all to myself. I then look back into chapter 9 and 10 and say the all he draws are only the sheep and those given over to Jesus by the father (again I am sure you already know all this). The other idea is that they are not hardened unto the point of not being able to respond without the supernatural work of the spirit in their life. I just read those above passages in romans differently than you. I looked at your website, but I do not agree that reformed theology produces a person who does not need to witness, but rather the promise of success of the gospel when preached to accomplish the purpose it was intended to achieve by God, rather than on how good I am at convincing someone to believe. Thank you again for reaching out and digging into the word deeply. I believe the most important thing and the reason why God allows this difference to exist is so that we can practice unity in the sight of disagreement. It is not hard to show unity if we agree with everyone.

@@jasonsexton8682 Thank you for the thoughtful and balanced answer! I find that there are two points you make in your answer that serve as very good distinctives that take us down the wrong path, logically and theologically. The first point is when you mentioned a reformed person would say that having faith is still the person doing something, the question is how do you do it? This isn’t what I find to be true in practice. In practice the reformed person says that if the person is providing the faith, then the person is doing a work, and that leads to the same logical fallacy I first pointed out. A person’s faith is not a work. It’s surrender, it’s abandoning work. To the second point of that statement, the question about it being in the spirit, both sides believe faith comes from the supernatural gifting of God. I do think man cannot do anything without the supernatural gifting from God. The reformed position is that God grants the faith, or the ability to have faith, to only some people. I don’t think thats tenable. The non-reformed position is that God gives all men the ability to have faith. This stands with scripture better, but more importantly, doesn’t make God the author of evil. The second point you make is the question about whom Jesus will draw. You cite John 12, and then John 9 & 10. But I think you’re missing a big point. In John, Jesus is defending his authority and his role in the process to the unbelieving Jews he was confronting, but it doesn’t mean he was giving the entire picture. Yes, Jesus cares for HIS sheep. And yes all that the Father gives to him will come to him. But none of that contradicts the idea that God draws all men, which he indeed does. John 6 should be understood that God draws all men and supernaturally gives all men the ability to repent and believe in Christ, some respond in faith and some do not, on their own volition, and those who do respond in faith, those are the ones the father gives over to the son. Nothing Jesus says is wrong, but the reformed position of thinking that the Gather must only draw some people is coming from completely outside of the text. And is dead wrong.

Thank you brother