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So you have your spunding valve set to 10psi and you haven't seen any gas pressure, or are you applying 10 psi to it constantly? Confused by your process here. The activity you see will be small bubbles and the gas pressure on your spunding valve rise to 10psi. That shouldn't take much longer than 2 days. I usually see it after a day.

@CiderWithKevin I applied 10psi initially to set the valve. Surprisingly it didn't drop, but it's also not releasing anything. Either it's super slow or nothing much is going on. I got more yeast an nutrients today an just put those in. Kind of has a bit of a sour smell after 3 days sitting in my garage. Dunno, but it may be ruined. The juice was around 50f when I pitched the yeast. Maybe I killed it, no idea. The yeast I just threw in already seems to be active and bubbling after only a few minutes. Time will tell, but this may have been a $50 learning experience that goes straight down the drain. I'll try to come back with an update in a few days

@richardcagle5475 the only thing that makes sense is dead yeast or an under pitch. With a healthy ferment, it should smell of apples and yeast from the spunding valve outlet.

@CiderWithKevin okay I think maybe it was doing something the whole time. There's no krausen at all, which really threw me, but the initial charge of co2 seemingly not being absorbed should've been a clue that some was being produced. I think it was just really slow starting. Either way, it's fully going now. Smells a bit sulfurous though. Like apples, but with a twang, if that makes sense. Is this normal? I really have very little idea what I'm doing here. Thanks for the replies.

@richardcagle5475 that is what s05 smells like with cider ferms. So if the initial co2 does not get absorbed or usually means that something is producing it. Krausen is not always present.

Specifically, if you do tight turns, they can very minorly leak. I've only every seen that on gas lines. Otherwise, they're fantastic.

as he said in the final note, before clarification with agar agar it should be stabilized, for example with potassium metabisulfite (hence killing the yeast)

This would actually be a feature even if I did bottle condition. You usually should pitch a small amount of yeast for bottle conditioning just to ensure that it occurs. The short answer is that the small amount of boiling liquid is unlikely to raise the temperature of the cider to pasteurization temperature.

Would there be an off flavor if the agar ferments? If I were planning on force carbing, could I agar in the fermenter before transferring to the serving keg and adding sulfites and sorbates? Only 2 grams of agar shouldn't ferment much, I'd think.

It's my favorite thing I've made this year!

I do. It's a nice fermenter. Hate the lid though

I like it, but it's definitely not essential for cider making. I make most of my cider non-pressurized

I know the owner, but I'm not inclined to ask for a discount when I'm getting apples at such a bargain! That is, in fact, the normal price. Happy to have you here. Thanks for coming to the channel :)

Alright, just to verify: 12.5L sweet cider to 8.5L bittersweet cider. 42.5% bittersweet. I don't have my recipe up, butI would say that's in the ballpark of correct for an Austere, C1B style cider. Key word being Austere. It's going to be highly tannic. It will mellow slightly with age, but it will remain austere as that is the style. Personally, very tannic is my preference, but if you've only ever had sweet, low tannin cider, it is wildly different. The flavor on the cider does change a lot with Conditioning.

@@CiderWithKevin I've had many different commercials ciders, including those claiming to be traditional and heritage and so on. I assumed some of these would have been as tannic as your recipe but apparently this style is quite unique as far as what's commercially available. Anyway, will let it age for a few more months and then try it and maybe backsweeten or blend into a new batch

@teamearleracing4782 I'm concerned that you think it's too tannic. Heirloom Ciders are not the same as traditional cider. Traditional cider can be bittersweet (what this is). Bittersweet cider is very much an acquired taste. Some commercial examples that have similar tannins: www.libertycider.com/ Anything in the artisan series. A couple things to note: has fermentation even started? You said you went with a wild fermentation rather than the recommended cider yeast. That does have an impact. Also, choosing to not use a MLF as in the recipe will have a major impact on final flavor. The MLF makes the cider more smooth and buttery. Just give it time. If it's not too your preference, blend it as you stated. Also, did you try the must or the diluted concentrate?

@@CiderWithKevin Yeah, I think I'll let it ferment to dry and then assess. If the cider is too sharp, I could introduce the MLF culture and allow another few months of evolution. Perhaps it already would've undergone a wild/partial MLF at that point because I'm aging on lees in cellar at 65 or so.

Thanks!

That's actually one piece of equipment I don't recommend. They're called wine thieves, and in principle they're good. In actual use, they only really work for large volume vessels. I'd stick to a baster and cylinder

good to know. I got my first cider with pineapple from concentrate and its cleaning finally! thank you for the help. Cider seems to ferment much easier than mead. @@CiderWithKevin

For the tanks: I'd recommend seeing what the local gas supply shops in the area have. That's where you'll need to get refills from. The regulator in using is a Komos regulator. Tubing is evabarrier 8mm. Fittings are duotight ffl. Ball lock valves with mfl *threaded not barbed.

@@CiderWithKevin what are the two gauges for on the regulator? My mini only has one. Oh wait I looked it up. One is the pressure of the tank so you know how much gas you have left and one is the pressurizing of the keg gauge.

@AM2PMReviews so when you have a CO2 tank you have two gages: one for the tank pressure, one for the regulator pressure.

@@CiderWithKevindo you serve at the same pressure or at a lower level? I get a lot of foam off my picnic tap at 30psi but I love the high carbonation. The flow control on the ball lock is nice for keeping it at one psi.

@AM2PMReviews 30 psi is way too much pressure to serve at! Most likely to much to carb at too! What temp are you carbing at? I don't see how you get anything but foam at that pressure.

The important thing to note is that this fermenter is pressure rated up to 30psi. You can't do this in normal fermenters!

yes I just thought it would stall because the yeast would choke. I usually have to degass to get a mead completed. Do you have any mini keg set up recommendations? I see there are tornado kegs are little cool guys. so much to learn. I just need something to fit in my fridge. @@CiderWithKevin

@@AM2PMReviews fermenting under pressure is really cool, but still very niche. I suppose I feel obligated to say the safety things lol. As for recommentations, I am currently using this one: www.amazon.com/TMCRAFT-Gallon-Stainless-Disconnect-Home-brewing/dp/B09B9SZ1BZ/ref=sr_1_11_sspa?crid=XLG30N14ZAO0&keywords=Mini+keg&qid=1706043592&sprefix=mini+keg%2Caps%2C146&sr=8-11-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9tdGY&psc=1 I can't say if it fits in your fridge, but it's pretty compact!

@@AM2PMReviews I also wanted to add that if you are planning on fermening and serving in the same vessel, get a floating dip tube :)

oh yeah I saw those! @@CiderWithKevin

It probably will help as well! I'll give that a shot for the 2024 version of this brew.

I just started my yearly cranberry cider a couple of weeks ago! I'm mixing it up this year by adding some of my garden black currants to the cider. When that's done we'll have a video of that :).

@@CiderWithKevin Neat combo!! Can't wait!

I think this might go back to what is defined as an applewine in the US. According to the BJCP: C2C. Applewine The term for this category is traditional but possibly misleading: it is simply a cider with substantial added sugar to achieve higher alcohol than a standard cider. As such it comes closer to a white wine than any other style. No fruit other than apples may be used in this style. You totally could dillute it with a mixer, I've heard squirt, sprite, or even just club soda is common. My personal preference is lower ABV stuff, so I might give that a go. 2lb of dextrose / 5gallons would raise the gravity by .46 * 2/ 5 gallons = .0184. This would increase the ABV by 2.4% - hypothetically. I think that would put it into the wine category, but kinda on the border.

@@CiderWithKevin I just came back from a trip to Germany and picked up a bottle of Possman's (the classic brand for Apfelwein). I was wrong: it is 6% alcohol. Cheers!

Much appreciated!

I appreciate that! They'll come around I'm sure. Right now I'm focused on good quality content rather than metrics!

So pectic enzyme clearing times are dependent on a lot of things: the concentration of the enzyme, temperature, and alcohol content. It's difficult to pinpoint how long much PE it will take to clear. I tend to go towards the higher side myself.

Interesting! There are hundreds of yeasts out there and I'd love to try them all.

His name is Maximus. He's a butt and likes to interfere when I'm recording, so I give him a box to sit in when he's onery.

Thanks for the kind words! I recently changed my format, so that might be it too. Also cidermaking is a niche topic in the niche topic of homebrewing, so contributes:).

So I did a bunch of Belle Saison brews at once. I can say that this time, the spice and Backsweetening overrode whatever footy note that Belle Saison has. This may be controversial, but it's going to be difficult to notice yeast nuances when you heavily Backsweeten. That's probably why the notes did not come through!

It's a pretty good one.

@@CiderWithKevin Sure was! Would be even more tastier if you mix with toffee without fats or oils.

@@aaronweyl2272 toffee without oil would be pretty difficult.... but.... if you use something like a recipe for browned butter Rum, you could hypothetically do a toffee buttered rum to use as an infusion

@@CiderWithKevin I heard something like that though you can also add brown sugar as it does add toffee like character to the party.

The funny thing is that I've never used EC-1118 for that exact reason. Everyone says to just avoid it for cider. My impressions of S-04 could be different from others. I find it to be remarkably clean, but also kinda character-less. You need a mix of good, flavorful apples to back it up. It's worked like a champ in fruited Ciders because it doesn't add any character, which can distract from the impression of the fruit and apple blend.

@@CiderWithKevin Yes I didn't think S-04 was bad, or Nottingham, a few other ale type yeasts. I just find myself preferring the white wine and champagne yeasts. I do make a lot of fruited ciders so that might have something to do with it. I have a good amount of fruit trees, peach, plum, apricot, etc. so I save fruit in my freezer and add those to most of my ciders. Thanks for making the yeast comparison video there's not a lot of them when it comes to cider.

@@CiderWithKevin I also might be leaving my ciders on the lees in primary too long which is maybe why I prefer the champagne white wine yeasts. How long did you have your ciders in primary and secondary or bottle conditioned for? You may have mentioned it in video and maybe I missed it.

I actually would recommend always using Pectic Enzyme with any fresh juice ferment. That was definitely an oversight on my part. Regarding the bouquet, I think the yeast character took over the nuances of the pink lady aroma. I'm going to try this with Safale S-O4 and 1.5 gallons of pink lady juice next time. I was left craving that pink lady character. S-04 is pretty restrained in aroma, which may allow the pink lady character to come through more.

Yeah, you definitely should!

Cote de Blancs is just a good yeast. It's affordable and performs really well! In my experience cider almost always goes completely dry (<= 1.000), but some yeasts do a better job of retaining some of the perceived sweetness than other yeasts. That maybe what it was! Ironically, I have a couple of Kveik and lager strains in my fridge ready to test out. Maybe a part 2!

It really was.

Good question. I force carb then bottle using The Last Straw from Northern Brewer about 1 gallon of each batch. Then, I pasteurize the bottles and store them in my cellar. Keg space is definitely at a premium.

I'm not sure what you mean here. It's pretty hard to get identical fill levels in all wine bottles to begin with.

Hazy cider is just sold as "trendy" scrumpy cider and doesn't noticeably affect the flavour, many years ago was drinking Black Rat and that was very dry and 10% ish alcohol, It doesn't much matter about the taste as long as the people drinking it like it, hence all the flavoured ciders (ick)

Since this goes through an MLF, I'd say go for it. You might have better luck using more tart juice in the non-concentrate side of things to preserve the tannin structure.

​@@CiderWithKevinI was suggesting it as a possibility for you (us makers), not sure how cookers and cider apples compare but cookers tend to be sharp (lots of sugar added to pie or crumble), I tend to buy my cider ready made

I had to try it when I saw the How to Brew video. It works really well at clearing loose sediment, but it struggles with protein and pectin haze.

Goodness that's a few questions! Clarity only really affects the appearance. Unfortunately people who judge ciders drink with their eyes. My hazy British Humor got called a yeast bomb when it was just a sediment haze. That's the reason to clarify, not for taste. I would not recommend not using sulfite and sorbate. Yeast can definitely still ferment at low temperature, it's just a dangerous game to play. At 35F they are very stable. Still, some fermentation can occur though. I'm going to have to do a video on the preservatives taste. I can tell you I haven't really noticed any off flavors, but I have yet to do a side by side. I am definitely not a super taster, even though I try and refine my palette, but man that would be hard to tell. We're talking 50-125ppm. That's 1g - 1.75g / 5 gallons. Could you taste that? Maybe. But it would be hard to discern without a side by side.

Yeah, it's actually really awesome stuff.

I have in the past. In my opinion of you're using additions, powdered wine tannin, and malic acid is the way to go. When I'm using store bought juice, my personal preference is to balance without those additions. I use oak staves for tannin and use sharp apples like pink lady or granny smith for malic acid.