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You need to fix your speakers and your screen. You can see stock db varying about mid 80's on both the number and the graph. The sound is clearly different. The difference in distance when revving it doesn't invalidate the difference that can be heard in the other two samples. You don't have to buy into the idea but there's no deeper sounding option for this bike than this.

I have previously pondered the situation you're in after someone posted on reddit that they tried installing ebay purchased o2 sensor deletes in place of both sensors and the engine was running very inconsistently as a result. The behaviour indicated how active the o2 sensor feedback loop is in self tuning the fuel maps. Many big name tuners claim it only matters at idle but this individuals experience proved that to be wrong. There are a lot of unknowns regarding what the ECU expects and what will cause the CEL with the gen4. Most of what I worked out came from the error codes in tthe service manual which for the gen3 I was able to download. Something like my design would allow for smaller variations to be programmed similar to what would be present with the stock exhaust but knowing what voltage level and how much variation will mean a lot of experimenting. Because we know that the ECU o2 sensor feed back loop uses the 2nd o2 sensor to tune the fuel map simply deleting it could cause problems. We wouldn't want it to be telling the ECU that everything is normal when in fact it's running lean. That would be bad. If I had to solve it for myself I would probably take the value from the first sensor or even the second sensor if it's still installed and halve the value from it. The value centers around 0.5v so if the sensor was outputting 0.8v I would change it to 0.65v or if it was outputting 0.2v then I would feed it 0.35v

Nice approach. Hopefully I'll never have to do that.,

I would think the sensor zeroing is stored separately from the maps. They just need to know the offset once and after that just read the map as is.

The MT09 doesn't have any IAP/TPS under other maps.

It's a low load scenario and the AFR see's it as rich and wanting to lean it out. But the main one is the popping in the exhaust 😁😁😁

​@@davidb3925so having it enabled reduces the pops or encourages? Why wouldn't you want a leaner mixture on decel?

The amount of back off is more than I could have done without noticing. In reality I didn't even feel the front lift so I had no reason to back off. We're talking ~50% here which is a lot. Not saying you're wrong though. More data will answer the question.

@@davidb3925 It's inadvertent - you're leaning forward and the front end is trying to rotate up. Both of which are conspiring to make the throttle want to close. Put some marks on the throttle grip and housing at wide open, and point a camera at it. That will show what your wrist is actually doing.

The first time I went to the drags I was playing with the different TCS and LIF settings and the bike just got slower and slower. That's why I went for a drag mode.

These were the main ones for drilling the final holes. www.thingiverse.com/thing:6817359 The ones to help with the initial gutting of the exhaust aren't helpful because they were wrong and I don't have the measurements needed to correct them. These will do the job though

It changes the sound a lot. It's actually quite loud and quite a deep tone at that. If you maintain the o2 sensor with this model (and newer models) then the ECU will self tune the fuel maps. No ecu flash needed. However if you look at the other videos in this channel you can learn about flashing these bikes.

Make sure you didn't combine the ignition maps. There's a video where I cover that. My email appears in quite a few videos. Feel free to email me.

The green line is g-force in the forward/backward direction. The value is negative G to the lower the value the higher the acceleration. If you wanted to for bragging rights you could calculate the horsepower from the lower gear data if you knew the mass of the bike + rider but that's not strictly necessary to make the point. I say lower gear because you have to account for the wind resistance at the higher speeds. Acceleration is a real world representation of applied horsepower. A dip in power will result in a dip in acceleration and visa versa.

@davidb3925 Thank you for replying! Is there any particular mathematical formula you are using?

@@KHIJAPAN I'm actually just looking at the shape of the green line. You can see its gradient and magnitude change which is enough to know if the power delivery is smooth. The precise numbers aren't needed for the task I'm using it for which is why I'm not going to do it. Metaphorically it's like wanting to know the colour of the sky. It's like looking up at the sky and seeing that it's blue as opposed to measuring the dominant wavelength of the light from that direction.

Interesting. I wonder if something to get the o2 sensor out of the direct flow might help smooth things out. A bit like my adaptor. There's some contention about how much the ECU pays attention to the live data from the o2 sensor but your comment and some other recent stories i've heard seem to indicate that the learning isn't totally static and that there's real time monitoring of the sensor inputs.

@@davidb3925 Wonder if not having secondary combustion going on in a cat, meanwhile an ecu programmed for use with a pair valve and catalytic combustion have something to do with it. FYI I did not block off the secondary exhaust air intake (pair) and have since switched back to stock exhaust. On a different note, I noticed you started messing around with your ignition timing. What are your thoughts on knock? Being that most of these bikes don't have knock sensors I feel like it's just a shot in the dark whether or not you're going to create detonation when tweaking ignition timing. I noticed in the documentation of Woolich they recommend the dyno tuners tweak ignition timing until max power is attained and then back it off 2%. I'd like to know where they came up with that. Seems like you wouldn't know unless you did extensive testing with knock sensors on these engines

@@dhall5634 Knock is something I have done my homework on but it's also something I've never actually experienced so I'm more concerned that I wouldn't recognise it if I pushed things far enough to encounter it. The way I see things detonation occurs for many reasons and it's alleviated in many way's. Using higher octane fuel, lowering compression, reducing ignition advance, rich mixture. From the research I've done this engine is actually tuned quite conservatively and the changes I'm making aren't that dramatic. It's a simplistic way of looking at it but if one or 2 degrees of advance was going to be bad then the bikes wouldn't be able to run at the stock 14.7AFR with some of the lower octane pump fuels without blowing up.

Once you're pre-prepared for it it does get easier. Make sure you let the device self calibrate on powerup with nice straight clear hoses. Otherwise it can read quite a bit off. I've just done the 20k service and had to go through it all again. I actually cut a longer bit of tube for the middle one. I've 3d printed some "things" to support the front of the tank too but did that after I was done so i'll be ready for next time.

I label myself as "old school nerd", a product of the late 80's who typically does anything and everything. The IT industry hates people like me because the IT industry wants people to stay in their lane and not multi task.

Target AFR's are mainly 13.5 with some minor variations on the edges of the maps. These ETV regions are in the middle of the map at around 13.5 target AFR.

That's not fast enough and interferes with the need to shift into second.

Good point.

There's also the middle cylinder being subject to more heat. But I do like the fuel rail idea.

Interesting that you ask that... There was someone who posted just recently on reddit about plugging 2 o2 sensor deletes into their EU gen4 and it was causing chaos as the ECU adjusted to the fake output at all points in the rev range. I've always been skeptical about the "It's only at low revs" claim. No one I've been able to find has ever put up anything to prove it. It may have been true in the early days of euro compliance but I suspect that it hasn't been true for a long time. I've certainly had the ECU throw errors about the o2 sensor output at high revs so the ECU is definitely looking for it. I would also postulate that the bikes wouldn't meet emissions if it was just for low revs. Yamaha has dropped the R1 and R6 for emissions reasons so it's something they're very conscious of. They don't want to become another volkswagon Dieselgate candidate. At the end of the day it was all just speculation... Until that post on reddit about the gen4.

@@davidb3925 makes sense. When i get my kit and start experimenting with it, i will try to check the AFR with the stock o2 in and see what's up. We could keep in touch if you want to.

​@@davidb3925 Hello David, a little follow-up. I've done a longer log run, trying to use the rpm band with light and heavy throttle. The OEM O2 sensor was in and connected, I've welded the Wideband o2 bung to the exhaust and used the wideband sensor for logging. Sadly the results are just as bad as yours, it seems like the bike can't keep up with the cat-less LV exhaust.

I've found IAP to apply at all RPM's and is more about TPS than RPM. It's more engine braking and cruising at constant speed. There are areas of both maps that can never ever be reached but there are plenty of areas that overlap. Only a yamaha software developer can tell us for sure how the 2 maps are used together so it's up to us to try and reverse engineer what's happening which is for me why i'm so happy to have the logs decoded so I can compare logged ETV to IAP at specific rev ranges and check that the maps align. Getting IAP right is IMO critical to smooth throttle. If the ECU attempts to switch between IAP and ETV map while you're riding you want that fuel value to be close enough that the ECU doesn't suddenly alter the fuel amount being injected and cause jerkiness. At high RPM's and high pressure running IAP rich is good for some light subtle popping. You're in zero throttle in those areas so there's no overlap.

@@davidb3925 I seen also woolrich has a option u can pick when it switches IAP to TPS. Basically over ride stock. I would think stock they make gradual so like 30% 14.7 holding speed but by 50% starts to go down to wot (amount depending on NA or boosted) (just picking random thr%) I know my suzuki was so choppy on the on off throttle. I just don't want to waste tons of gas cruising 80mph 5k rpms .. I keep seeing on tuned bikes idling warm at 13:1 and cruising 13 to 13.5:1. Hope if I have to shop tune they ain't mad I'm like yo I use this bike to commute still want good gas mileage lmao

@@QSpeedRacer Selecting the transition between IAP and ETV isn't an option that gets written to the bike. It's just a setting for autotune when deciding what autotune log should apply to what map. It lets the tuner make an educated guess on what logs to include and exclude. I agree that there's a limit to how rich you can make them before it degrades performance and many tunes don't take that into account. Many tuners just as you say aim for 13 and send the rider on their way. The bike owners lap up the poor fuel economy claiming it means they ride hard.

@davidb3925 yea. Guess tuner assume they don't care. Getting then must be speeding always. Kind of nice I can get 40mpg on this H2 SX holding like 70 or 80. I use the bike alot for long rides save on gas. 😆 Also nice at 100mph it's still getting like 35mpg or something haha.

For me with the gen3 it was mainly to allow me to remove the o2 sensor completely. With the decel fuel cut turned off and my ignition at the time being tuned to induce decel popping I didn't want the o2 sensor to get destroyed by all of the carbon build up. The damn things are expensive to replace if I ever want to put it back to stock. As for the gen 4 it seems that only Europe has the 2 sensor setup at the moment. Australia and the USA still only have the one sensor. The ecu for the gen4 is actively looking for a difference between the first sensor and the second so a delete for the gen4 would need to be carefully crafted and not just throw random values to the ECU. Someone tried the existing commercially available units it and posted on reddit about it. It was very educational.

You can buy them of ebay and aliexpress. I've got the electronics gear to DIY so I did, and I learned quite a bit along the way about what the ECU is looking for from the o2 sensor and the faults that the ECU will throw if it's not seeing what it wants to see.

It's a lot of work to do for others. The per hour rate would be too costly. But for DIY time is free and I was on a riding hiatus for medical reasons (nothing negative) so I had plenty of time.

Given there are no "pipes" in that area and given I've just done the 20k service and thus I've had to do this again i'm not sure of the point of your post. If you're referring to all of the breather hoses then no, you don't remove them. They would be a nightmare to remove while you fit the hoses from the synchroking after which you have to put them all back to properly before you sync the throttle bodies. That's an insane amount of work for what is now a very quick job after you replace the small vacuum caps with hoses you can grab easily. In fact I took the shortest of my replacements and swapped it with a much longer piece of tube and put that in the middle which is the hardest one to find and remove. Syncing is now a 30 min job.

I'm purchasing a 2024 MT-09 this week. I do my own work, and I'm not looking forward to the sync. My 2019 Tracer isn't too bad to sync, but it's still a pain. Thanks for the heads-up!

Thanks. Remember this is a group effort. We're all in this learning together.

Have you looked at the throttle maps for the gears in question. Do you have the etv more open than it can handle. Or the opposite... Is the throttle mapping the limitation. I use my log decoder to filter the data to exclude low gears before I put it into the autotune. It's low load for the engine so I don't want those areas to be tuned from engine loads that aren't relevant unless they're lean. Have you look at which way the autotune adjusted the maps for the areas in question? Did it lean them or richen them?

Currently I have the ETV map stock until the higher rpm and throttle range, the issue is around the 4-6k rpm range at which seems to be any throttle input, I started a ticket with woolich and sent them the maps as well As far as the AF Adjustments it does seem to be altering in the correct direction, what has me interested in you situation is the correct columns, the data being recorded says that the throttle percentage range that I’m riding in is pretty high, around 31-36% throttle but the hard part is it feels much lower realistically more like 15-30% The third part is I do have some drastically different readings from block to block in that area that could cause some erratic operation. I’m going to keep tuning and find out if it will eventually get it right or in fact is incorrectly programming. I’ll keep you posted on their reply and results

@@tylerfloyd8036 One thing I realised when looking at a viewers R1 file was that their TPS and ETV calculations were closer to actual than for my MT09SP It was then that I realised what should have been obvious. That it's not a bug but a reality that there is a calibration component to every bike that woolich cannot realistically account for. Another aspect of data in the wrong place is the settings for the position of the o2 sensor. There's a time delay between fuel in and o2 sensor reading the output and those header length settings are important to match the AFR with the fueling settings that resulted in that recorded afr. My decoder should be able to read your log files. If not you could email me a smaller one where you use the whole TPS and ETV range and I can try and decode it. From the CSV you will be able to pull out the maximum and minimum values read from the TPS sensor like I was and also the ECU's calculated ETV values.

@@davidb3925yeah that is an understatement, some bikes have their own personalities, I work at a dealership with lots of big name brands and even at an oem level some bikes just don’t like to be touched lol but I sent them in all of my settings for auto tune and input all of my exhaust measurements. So far they are recommending to turn down the tune strength to 60% and see if it tunes in a calmer manner, it will be a few days before I will have time to ride it again so we will see what the result is after a few more logs

@@davidb3925so after restarting again for the 3rd time but changing the settings for autotune I started at 80% strength for the first adjustment and then the following three adjustments at 60% and it turned out much better, the other part is I made no other adjustments to anything else which I plan on changing the ETV but at this point I’m just glad it’s not lean anymore, for now I’m just going to ride it and leave it alone lol

It's open source on github. Link in the video description

That depends on what you mean by resonance and where and how you're feeling it. I always wear ear plugs and do find that there is some bone conduction sound transmission coming up through the frame, up through the seat and up through my spine. If I lift my bum off the seat the noise goes away but most of that noise is road noise rather than exhaust noise. We're talking 4+ hours of riding before that starts to become a thing though. If I don't wear my ear plugs then I very quickly find it to be too loud and I fully expect that it because the sound goes down and back up. I haven't found it to resonate at any particular speed though so what you're experiencing may not be what I experience. I have quite a lot of brazing material inside and outside of the plates and that might stop it. Also I used a high temp rtv silicone when I riveted the units in. They could be damping things too.

Obviously yes ;-)

​@@davidb3925 Hey David, how would you prefer to receive said file? Also you will see some interesting data where my ETV was to high and it caused a fault. The S1Krr doesn't get very much data via Woolich sadly. I need to add the Woolich wideband if I want that data in my logs, I wish it could extract the built in wide bands.

@@jasonisdn If you can keep the file under 10M then you should be able to go the github repo and create an issue and attach the file. You might need to rename it to .log extension. github.com/mt09sp/woolich_log_decoder

@@davidb3925 lol it's 84M, can I host it to my google drive for you?

Hey David, It's 80MB, I can put it on my Google drive if you like?

I watched your video about the ETV max max values and you kind of lost me. I personally don't understand the point of that having a max value page in addition to the ETV map page which covers the whole RMP range. Anything less that 100% for the max page would potentially limit higher values in the ETV page, seems redundant.

​@@rojoracing53 The max values do feel redundant given that you can define them for each gears tps to etv map. I will gleefully speculate though on reasons for it... One could be legal considerations where one or more particular regions that may be more litigious... yamaha might want to more easily prevent people from giving it too much throttle in low gears and looping it and injuring themselves. Particularly in regions where people aren't restricted on the power of the bike they're learning on. Another and perhaps the main engineering reason is that with too large a throttle opening at low rpm's the engine will just bog down and cannot produce as much power as it would with a smaller throttle opening for that rpm. This could help with that. It's certainly an effect I am aware of from my carb bikes back in the 90's & 00's Related to this is a very interesting cycle world video ruclips.net/video/NWgbXU8thec/видео.html about airflow that's worth watching. I hope it's the one I linked to where they mention the effect i mentioned before. With all that in mind I am actually happy not having 1:1 mapping of TPS to ETV. I ride a lot of very twisty roads very fast and having more roll on range while I've still got some lean is appealing to me and if I want full 100% etv then it's there waiting for me in the higher revs where the maximum power is. I've spent enough time on track in the past to know that power is only useful if you can use it and for me the only time i'm in the lower gears and lower rpm ranges is while cornering (or on launch) and for cornering I'll never be able to use 100% etv so why not sacrifice some of that unusable etv into more precise control. Halving the ETV decel values will increase the engine braking. That's not something I want to do because I like having less engine braking. It can actually unsettle the bike particularly in fast multi radius corners where there's a slight need to wash off speed mid corner without loading the front and risking a front slide. It's one area where thumb brakes can be useful if it's a right hander or I can just keep the engine braking lower like I do. I'd be happy to look at some more logs. Best bet is to try and upload them to the github repo for the log decoder unless you can put them somewhere I can download them. You'll spot my email in some of the vids if you're interested in directly contacting me.

@davidb3925 I actually tried to upload to github, but it said I need permission or access, so I assumed I may need an invite from the creator of the page. I know more about how to ride motorcycles fast than I do about github. As far as not running a 1:1 ETV ratio I guess you prefer a more progressive throttle opening similar to the throttle tube cams you could install in the late 90's and early 2000's. I was once told by the factory data technician that my throttle use was very smooth and acute compared to the typical racer. He said it would explain my hypersensitivity to power fluctuations any time the electronics would do anything out of the ordinary. I would bet 99% of riders and 90% of racers would prefer a progressive throttle over a linear. Now it makes sense why you spent so much time dialing in the 3d map when I just drew a straight line. One crazy thing I still notice is even though I'm 1:1, I can still feel the occasional instance where it's not 1:1 as I exit a corner which shouldn't happen. It's like the system gets confused and forgets my settings. I happend like 5-6 time my first ride post install, and 2-3 times the second ride after I tuned the fuel map. I view the linear graph in the log and sure enough you can see a couple instances where the ETV hesitates to match the TPS. Have you ever experienced this? Have you figured out the mode setting? Woolich shows modes 1-4, but my bike has rain, street, sport, custom 1, custom 2. Are those supposed to corelate? It seem like my flash affected sport and custom 1 and definitely not rain.

@@rojoracing53 Github would expect you to add files to the project as a developer and create a Pull Request. It's potentially a bit overblown. If you could upload it to google docs or something then I could pull it from there. It's too big to email. If you do want to email try mt09sp at divineentanglement.com I don't have a 2024 so I don't know how the modes map. That might be a question for woolich? I can see all 4 of the gen3 modes as 1 to 4 but I only ever play in 1.

@@rojoracing53 I did notice with the drag racing that the TCS did drop the ETV either for lif control or wheel spin. I cannot remember which.

The zeitronix is normally not connected at all. I only reconnected it while playing with the tuning and wanting to refine the AFR. Exposure to water ingress is also not fun. There isn't really enough space beside the radiator under that cowl for all the necessary wiring which means I would need to re-route it. This is easier. It took me less time to solder this than it would to re-route wiring to somewhere it wouldn't get wet. I don't have a second bung to leave the stock o2 sensor connected and if connected it needs to be installed in the exhaust to prevent error codes.

@@davidb3925 Also running them in an exhaust with out them being warm and on they dont like that. So as far as i knew theres only Logbox (the Denso 1) that the wideband o2 sensor replaces the stock and connects to the ecu to be used as the stock... Any way ive just used my o2 sensor on their own lop not connected to the ecu.. Im not sure exactly where the stock ones are but if your saying near the radiator that may be to close to exhaust port for it to..

@@stephengale8601 You should take a step back and consider that my bike is a 2023 MT09SP. There are a lot of fault codes relating to the o2 sensor function that when triggered will disable the cruise control, disable power mode and tcs changes and finally disable the quickshifter. It's all listed in the service manual and I recommend that you read that. It will help you to better understand why a well functioning o2 sensor delete that I can put together with ease in very little time is a better solution than trying to keep the o2 sensor connected. With the zeitronix logger connected I can either go without the cruise control or I can have the o2 sensor delete that is able to trick the ecu into believing that a fully functioning o2 sensor is connected in every way that the ecu monitors the performance of the o2 sensor.

There's a separate map for ignition timing. From previous investigation of the logs the ECU follows the ignition maps without alteration except for when it's retarding the ignition for traction control and quickshifter.

@@davidb3925 what are the X and Y aixs on your ignition map? RPM would be one..

@@stephengale8601 ruclips.net/video/w-vRsb1Umzg/видео.html

The feedback loop is just telling the ECU not to modify the fuel map based upon the data that it gets from the o2 sensor. The ECU however expects the o2 sensor to be there even if it's not using it and will throw error codes. There are approx 5 (just of the top of my head) fault codes related to the o2 sensor that will do anything from preventing the cruise control on the SP to disabling the quick shifter and also preventing you from changing ride modes.

@MrBCRC I have a 2024 with cruise and I got full woolich kit with wide band. Now I'm curious if I'm going to loose cruise control functionality with my kit. They recommend I remove the wide band sensor after I'm happy with my tune to prevent continuous heat wear on the sensor itself.

@@rojoracing53 It depends on the fault definitions for the gen4. You would need access to the service manual for that. You also have to deal with the gen4 having two o2 sensors one before and one after the cat. If you disconnect the o2 sensor on the gen3 it will fault for the o2 sensor heater not working and the only thing that gets disabled for that is the cruise control. I was fine riding without it while I was developing the fuel maps but when I was done I wanted to explore an o2 sensor delete so I didn't have to re-connect the o2 sensor. Part of the reason I did that it was people having problems related to o2 sensors after having a tune done. Thinking about it now I suspect that the tune was rich enough to make the ECU think that the o2 sensor was stuck high (Fault P0134). It sounds like you're going to have to experiment like I did particularly given you've got 2 sensors.

@@davidb3925 I'm in the US so I've only got the one narrow band on the GEN4 that I'll replace with a wide band to tune the bike. My hope is while tuning with the wide band the bike is happy with the different O2 sensor and I can retain all my functions. If the bike is not happy with out an O2 sensor after I'm satisfied with the tune I guess I can put the narrow band back in with it disabled so I can keep my wide band fresh to future tunes. The 3rd option would be a O2 delete like you've made but that is beyond my level of electronic building experience.

@@rojoracing53 Be aware that they are available to buy. Not my ones but other commercially available ones. Just google for it and you'll find plenty of options. My ones are me just doing my own DIY thing because I can.