Why Flatting AK Sucks | Ask SplitSuit
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2024
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What would you do, if you were dealt AK OOP and facing a multi-way pot? What should you consider when making your decisions?
On the surface, this hand may sound somewhat straight forward, but there are various angles to examine. From choosing to squeeze or flat pre-flop, multiple SPRs post flop, ranges that may or may not give action, and more.
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Not 100% sure when to play AK fast vs. slow preflop? Read the entire preflop section of *Optimizing Ace King* today: www.splitsuit.com/ace-king-poker-book
wow this is a peeeerfect example for this situation. The fish obviously would never call a strong 3bet with 4-5 off but he he thought he can catch something in a 5 way pot with this betsize preflop. These situations happened to me too often so I always try to punish crazy idiots limping in pots preflop with hands like that. This video was great in showing that.
+Falkao92 thank you!
Calling pre flop with 45 off suit and flopping a straight. gotta hate the lucky fish
Thats exactly why, you should 3-bet AK preflop. Then 45 off goes away, and this thing does not happen.
Well, I tried that with AA, and in comes 24 off and ends up with a straight... What in the world is going on lol
He was getting terrific pot odds there...closing the action and getting roughly 6-1...only the worst players wouldn't call there! This hand demonstrates very well why you do call in that spot..for 62 cents you get a chance to stack players who never know what hit them.
not to mention from utg hahahahaa
razorgarf That will always happen from time to time, but more often than not you get people to fold their fishy garbage with an adequate raise. Be careful not to fall down the confirmation bias well or you may never emerge - certainly not with a profit!
I float on and off poker, and watched a lot of your videos, this is one of your better ones I believe and would help everyone.
Babyface Nelson thanks Nelson!
"Weigh the pros and cons of every option, always remembering to ask 'Why?'"
Thanks for the reminder - great tips.
+McGavel1 I love how you set up the idea that 3-betting PF is good there.
+McGavel1 so basic...but so powerful :)
hey james. i've been watching your videos for a long time and they helped my game so much from a couple years ago, especially in terms of getting reads on people. poker is so much more fun when you're playing your own hand less and less and playing your opponents hands more and you helped enormously. are you ever going to make any omaha videos?
+tipsy09 I don't think we'll be doing Omaha videos on this channel. But SplitSuit did write a BigO article here: redchippoker.com/how-to-play-big-o-poker/
Flat only if you hate money.
Arnold Diaz i would say flat if you love money because you want to hold on to it and aren't a gambler
tipsy09 Just fold it if you really want to hold on to your money.
lol
It's crazy how simple preflop and flop mistakes with either making the right move or making the right bet size can lead to huge lost pots. That's what I've learned the most from splitsuit watching these. Small mistakes can lead to huge losses.
This really is a mandatory squeeze spot with so much dead money in the pot. The only hands, we are worried about, are KK and AA, which we block down to only 3 combos each. And even more importantly the only players here, who can really have KK-AA, are player 1 and player 6.
So just pump this up, expect to win it a ton of the time preflop, and be happy to call it off, if someone shove on you. Yes it sucks to get it all in preflop against AA, and yes that is going to happen sometimes. But you cant play winning poker, if you are always thinking about those monsters under the bed.
you make good points. However, every now and then you will come across hands where you hold AKs vs AA KK QQ. How would you get away from that situation without losing your full stack? Fold preflop to 4 bet? call and see flop and laydown if missed?
It depends if this is a cash game or a tournament. Squeezing in a tournament can be effective, unless it costs you your tournament life! WHICH, when you’re on a draw, it can! 😞
When there's a 5x iso with 2 callers and a limper behind, I'm putting a pot committing raise in their eye 100% of the time with that hand.
In this scenerio it was quite obvious to me to squeeze, but in other scenerios where you are playing quite nitty and then decide to raise even 3BB, most people will just fold because they will know you have a strong hand. So in those scenerios, I usually just raise 2BB unless others have already raised then I reraise because I know someone will call.
Great video once again!
$3.60 to me seems a bit small for the squeeze sizing in this scenario. I think I read somewhere that 3betting roughly 4x the raise is standard when we're in the blinds (since we're OOP) + 1 for every caller. So since the raise is $0.80, and there are two callers, this would make the squeeze $4.80.
Your thoughts?
SaberX1138 yea, $3.6 is a bit tiny and I'd actually prefer it be like $4.2 in retrospect. But ~$5 seems a bit large and begins to tell players that there is zero FE and thus removes their ability to bluff shove as easily.
James (SplitSuit)
So the assumption is that we're at a table full of competent opponents who are capable of thinking on that level?
If not then our raise to $5 is clearly for value, no? I mean the guy from EP limp-called a raise with 54 offsuit! :P
SaberX1138 $5 is a psychological price-point...I want to be under that unless I know there is maximum inelasticity (and limp/calling $.8 with 54 is 'typical fishy'...limp/calling $5 with 54 is 'special-case-fishy' =) )
James (SplitSuit)
Fair enough. And I would expect that the vast majority of players would not call a $5 raise with that hand. But I think that based on the actions taken in the hand the table isn't shaping up to be the most competent in the world and that at least one of those guys can make a mistake and call with a dominated broadway or medium pocket pair. So I would err on the larger side. But I would probably make it $4 if I was in position.
SaberX1138 totally fair =)
Over cards an nut flush draw where u going no where. With this hand .thats why u shove pre flop get rid of 45 or outher shitty hands .if they didn't raise .they most likely to have a shifty hand.
I completely understand the need to reraise pre here, but why are you suggesting such a big one? $3.60 would be 4.5x the initial raise....are you just trying to take the pot down? That's a very strong hand, so I don't see why you might not want a caller or two, plus if one of the other 5 players does have aces or kings, hoping for exactly your big re-pop, you are losing more. What's wrong with going to about $2.00-$2.40 range instead here?
To me this look like the perfect opportunity to squeese! I was facepalming when I saw the call preflop! How long has he sit on the table, that could probably explain it to me a little bit...?
Without players stats this is a harder decision to make with AK. Vs stations I'm flatcalling oop, 3betting ip. Vs A-Fish I'm flatcalling oop and flatcalling ip to avoid 4bet/5bet bluff. Vs nits,tags, and lags I'm 3betting oop and ip. Multiway vs stations I'm flatcalling oop and 3betting ip. If A-Fish was original raiser multiway I'd probably flatcall. Would love your insight on this decision matrix.
+Kevin Clarkson too tight. if you won't get AK AIPF vs an A-fish...your committing ranges are just too tight.
+The Poker Bank Fine. Thanks for the leak tune-up. Ya you're right because they do shove a lot of Ax so that's +ev and flipping with them is breakeven vs smaller pocket pairs. Gimme 3-4 months of finishing up my devouring of fr info and then I'm gonna pay you for coaching... gl finding another leak then ;).
But you only 3bet if you expect to have fold equity on the flop if he calls, right? Because you miss 67% of the times. If he calls and you miss the flop, you can't really value bet AK and if he doesn't fold postflop, you lose too often. Also, you probably wouldn't call a preflop 4bet, so you want them to fold (preflop or postflop) or to hit and win big.
+knompf it's logical that villain would give your 3bet action with hands that also miss the flop 2/3 of the time as well though.
Great analysis to build fundamentals
just watched about 5 of your videos. nice and informative and on topic. great.
Thanks Chris!
how about the same situation only on the button instead of UTG? could a case be made for flatting then?
Never heard of 16nl so I have to do some quick math first. So UTG limps and next player raises 4x and gets two other callers. This is a standard raise and probably the next player is set mining or has something like TT that may have some value even if he misses. The other caller can now call a wider range because he's getting about least 4 to 1 before Hero decides what to do. I think David Skalansky would say calling here is a mathematical catastrophe. And as played the UTG limped is getting about 5 or 6 to 1 (can't remember if bb calls too) and I would almost call with any two given the enormous pot odds I'm getting. That's my thought process and I would raise that up to full pot especially since if I get any callers I will be OOP. And say two people call it would be an awkward spot even with a flush draw and two overs, but I'm sure I have enough equity at that point with even 8 outs for a flush to make the call. Discount the heart that pairs the board. Great video.
Chad Moore thanks Chad, and your thought process is right-on!
James (SplitSuit) thanks :)
Agree Chad this how simple discisions in poker can gain you 20 bb pre , or lose your whole stack
Hey Split - first up, thanks for the vids. Amateur trying to lift my game so I loooove the analysis you do, and especially the explanations of why particular actions are/aren't good.
In this case - as a rook, what does the 88/15 refer to? Having a search on Google I found mention of it possibly referring to Pokertracker numbers - where 88 would be VPIP and 15 would be PFR. Is that accurate?
some player would just call the AK's 3 bet because they are pot committed but In reality and in poker if want long term you should definitely look at your hands again at 45 off is it worth it?
Probably watched this a dozen times, but just have to stop and lol when i hear the hand is gonna be super interesting according to the guy that suggested the hand...
Flatting AK is usually a bad play. Multiway it's just usually not gonna work. All it did was allow a donk to get his 45 in cheap for excellent pot odds and flopped the straight.
I actually had a hand earlier tonight I played with AKs that was played perfectly. Had AK, I raised, late position reraised heavy, I hit two pair aces and kings on the flop and I jammed and he called . Now *THAT"S* how you played AK. Old matey's AQ gets crumbled to nothing. He even hits a queen and everything but that's no good because that's the power of top kicker hands like AK. They make excellent TP//Two pair scenario hands, and monster draw scenario hands but a draw is still a draw. I'd rather take a sizeable pot down even if it's not a monster pot then let my opponent's draw out for cheap. I'd rather a TPTK or a two pair scenario then chasing a monster draw like this guy in the vid and with 5 people before him betting into it your equity is just too garbage to flat call. Even if he'd bet and they'd all folded he *STILL* would've made nearly $3 from the preflop alone which is a better outcome then busting over half your stack to 4 freaking 5 offsuit.
Speaking off. I really have to say a big thank you to Poker Bank and Split Suit :). I've been following your guy's advice on playing hands and my game has improved immensely. It's astonishing how much better you can get by just learning what you can when you can and I find myself thinking back to these videos in tough decisions and they actually pay off big time. So once again I appreciate your videos and I say keep up the good work.
Unless the opponent is particularly donkey-like I'm happier raising all in than calling all in. I also see a difference between a pair and a flush draw or 2 overs and a flush draw and a monster draw that is both open ended and a flush draw. In the former case, we may only be getting called by better than a pair, whereas when we have the latter we'll almost always be able to feel confident that our outs are clean.
more money is lost with AK by limping than almost any other scenario. if hero jams pre flop he wins far more often than not. does 4-5 os call when hero jams pre? not even 1\2 live except very rarely. jam AKs.
If you squeeze here and player 1 piles the stack in, do you stack off?
Is folding preflop a valid play? I mean its very multiway and youre hitting 1/3 of the time. probably not going to be able to bluff as well. Can find a better spot to make money.
+Eric Winkworth no, you can't fold preflop. You'd be relinquishing way too much equity.
never a fold! squeeze the hand. yas play tight but not like a nit (and that whould be really nitty)
What is your fold/call ratio if Player1 4bet Shove pre?
Soooo do you typically call a 4 bet/5 bet shove w AK?
100% read/math dependent. But the question of "what do I do when facing a 4bet?" isn't the only question to ask before 3betting.
Is it most always wrong in tournament play also?
which hands do actually do well in a multiway pot?
thxx I saw the related video on the topic
Too much thinking-you are only guessing wildly. The main thing to consider is are they loose or tight. Works for me.
If I make a 3 bet of $3.5-$4 and player 1 moves all in; in that case what do you suggest? I find these types of situations quite tricky. What could be the best move on that scenario?
Epecially in a situation like this, when there is so much dead money in the pot already, most people will have shoving ranges, which are much wider than just only KK+. Sure some percentage of the time they will flip over AA, and that will suck. But they will show up with other stuff often enough, that by default you have to make the call. Maybe you can find the rare fold, if you have a decent HUD-sample on your opponent, and he is a super nitty player in general.
@fundiver198 - What is he possibly 4 bet shoving with against 2 callers and a 3-bet that you are ahead against though? Even 22-QQ you are still behind or only flips at best, let alone being crushed by KK and dominated by AA. I really don't see a 4-bet shove with 3 players left to act on any non-AK suited connectors, even other broadway ones like KQ/QJ/J10. The only chance you are ahead really is facing an AKo or MAYBE AQs from a LAG
What is considered a monster hand? So in this hand he had 15 outs. Is it after 13 or more outs, a hand is considered monster hand? Obviously the nuts is considered monster hand I guess.
galanoth17 it's relative, but lots of outs makes for a monster draw :)
+galanoth17 12 Outs plus is a Approximation. it is clear that they not always will be Outs because of sets,two pairs.
+galanoth17 More than 10 outs especially on the turn is a monster bluff at the very least in my book. 13+ would be hard not to bet at
Yup
Great Vid
What if player 2 reshoves over player 9 would you still call?
Xtraderr just fold. risk/reward is pretty bad at that point.
+The Poker Bank whaat???? postflop?? 11$ into 39$?? getting 3,5:1 with such a strong draw youd fold??? you only need 22% Equity... worst case is beeing up against top set and another FD wich would leave you with 20% Equity... if they both have sets your still around 27% ...... best case is they both have Flushdraws wich would make you a very big favourite....why would you fold there????
you always sounds weard but your advice is always appriciate thx
+mindbendinggoldtimemachine s thanks - I guess.
isnt splitsuit the same as offsuit :0
+Dovahkrab James 'Offsuit' Sweeney - meh, doesn't have the same ring to it imo :-)
can anyone tell me what is spr
It`s how deep the remaining effective stack is relative to the pot. I recommend watchin his video on the subject.
what is SPR?
+Herv3 Stack to Pot Ratio. This video will explain it: ruclips.net/video/UwrkbXtJ55A/видео.html
The Poker Bank thank you. I appreciate all your videos
Where are you all playing online? Maybe a dumb question but I'm in Florida and so far I've tried bet online and a week later my debit card was compromised :(
what is spr?
Hey Pluggie. This video will help you out: ruclips.net/video/UwrkbXtJ55A/видео.html
BTW, if you ever search on RUclips for "splitsuit xyz" where "xyz" is the term you are looking for (in this instance, SPR), you'll usually find something =)
Just shove at this level. You're only dominated by AA and AA is highly unlikely given the flat calls.
flat back well you are actually dominated by TT, JJ, QQ, KK and Aces
You don't think 66-33 against kings is pretty bad off? The initial raiser was strong and there are two left to act, and either of the callers could have been trapping hoping for a squeeze...
If you are including QQ, JJ, TT...why not include 22 too? The odds are about the same, actually. QQ:53 AKs:46...22 vs. AKs almost exactly 50/50...
Your flipping against those hands. Only AA dominates AK preflop.
SPR? What?
Are you really analyzing a hand played for PENNIES??
David Zannini even hands played at super small stakes can bring up important concepts that apply at all limits.
+David zannini I don't think it matters if the blinds are 8p 16p or 8k 16k the concept is still the same
Also how do I add the name of the person I'm trying to type too lol
On the one hand, as someone that's played a fair bit of free poker I know where you're coming from. Little to no stakes means players can act quite a bit more maniacally.
OTOH, good strategy applies at pretty much every level, from free to pro. Perfectly valid hand to analyze in that respect.