How can it be Good News when a church discriminates? What happened to Open Doors, Open Minds and Open Hearts? Is that still the motto of the UMC? If so, we must live those words, not just print them on our bulletins.
There were many truths spoken by Rob, but those truths can be interpreted two ways. One, is that we continue on the path we have trod since 1972 and say that the scriptures, as interpreted by Good News, is inerrant when it states that "homosexuality is incompatible with Christian Teaching." The second path, and one that I feel that Jesus would have trod. This path is that God loves each and every one of us. God made us and we comprise many different races, ethnicities, genders, gender identities and sexual orientations. People in loving, monogamous, relationships, and who support each other, whether they be heterosexual or LBGT should be welcomed and have full inclusion in all aspects of the UMC. This includes Karen Oliveto and her wife, along others serving as clergy or laity. They must be welcomed. Sadly we did split in the past, when in the 1840s our church split over slavery and some thought that slavery was allowed in our scriptures, others vehemently disagreed. I hope that this will not happen again over the issue of sexual orientation or gender identity. If we follow the second path, the debate is over. Remember that the BoD has been changed in the past, and, yes, my fellow Methodist Christians, it can be changed again.
To call yourself a Methodist Christian, in the old sense of the word, you must at least take into consideration the Quadrilateral. It states that Scripture is the supreme source for knowing God's will for our lives. The other three corners are lesser and submissive to the corner of Scripture. God's Word does not change. Fallen men's feelings and views of different sins do as the years go by. If you can sit there and state that Christ, Whom is the Living Word (it reveals his nature), would disregard himself and tell his followers that "this sin is fine!," I suggest you spend some serious time in prayer. If we do not have a fixed point for our morality to hinge on in the Scriptures, just tell me, how are we any different from the rest of the world? Why would they waste their time with us? This is why our UMC is shrinking. We no longer offer the only thing the Church was instructed: Christ Himself.
Will, the Quadrilateral is four tenets held in equal value. Scripture, Tradition, Reason and Experience. No one tenet supersedes another. Scripture is part, and must be read rationally, but we, also, need to use Reason, Tradition, and Experience. Yes, "I call myself A Christian," and I act as a Christian should, I do not discriminate. I used to attend a Methodist Church but now attend a UCC Church.
The teaching of the Quidrilateral always has Scripture as the supreme source of Christian knowledge, never to be overridden by the other three. Even Wikipedia will tell you that. It's meant to be read rightly, not literally word for word, of course. You just have to figure out which literary device is being used. Discriminate is now a loaded word that used to be synonymous with "distinguish". However, it is now the same as "prejudice". Christians must distinguish between the lost and saved in order to reach the lost with the Gospel of love--a love that is so strong it refuses to leave people in their broken state.
I realize that you disagree, however, no one tenet of the Quadrilateral supersedes the other, all are of equal value. Do you recall the lovely motto that the UMC adopted? Open Doors, Open Hearts, Open Minds? If the UMC truly believes this wonderful motto, we must live by it. We, as a church, must be Open to all God's Children and that includes attendees, members and clergy. I remember reading about how the Methodist Church of the South allowed the ownership of slaves by members and clergy, as "slavery was condoned in the Bible." The Methodist Church in the North did not allow any member or cleric to own slaves, as they felt that Jesus would not want any person to be "owned" by another. The church split over this disagreement. So, too, unless the conservative branch of the UMC does not agree to a Big Tent Option, we may well split again, over what the "Bible Says," regarding our LBGT+ sisters and brothers. If this schism does occur, the UMC will reunite, eventually, and I hope that we do not cling to prejudices and have our LBGT+ sisters and brothers relegated to a "Central Jurisdiction" as we did to our African American sisters and brothers in years past.
1. You cannot "disagree" with a fact: the fact that the Quadrilateral holds all four tenets as being equal is simply not true. It was never meant to be interpreted this way. You can read this anywhere. 2. This motto is important, yes. We should welcome all into our congregations. However, we should adhere to the instructions that Paul laid out for pastors in 1 Timothy 3. 3. You're equating something people are born into without a choice (slavery/racial prejudice) to homosexuality, a choice. No one (in the UMC) is out here saying that we should shut homosexuals out of the congregations. Sin is a choice--it is human nature, not God's nature. You can simultaneously be LGBT and in Christ. However, it will be your new nature growing in Christ to eventually move out of that community, turning away from that sin and toward Jesus. A Christian should not take "pride" in something the Word considers corrupt. I believe by accepting sin as being fine, we are serving as a stumbling block for the young in Christ, as well as those on the outside. Happy Lord's Day! I'll stop hindering you now. Just felt led to say something.
Pastor Renfroe....I just received my May/June 2017 issue of Good News Magazine, and after reading your Editorial "Eyes on Faith" I was greatly dismayed. In your editorial you said "....I have decided to see what is happening in the church with the eyes of faith". You have personally decided to wait out the next two years to see how the Bishop's Commission on "A Way Forward" comes out. You also tried - and in my opinion very inappropriately - used examples of people who had cancer, ALS, the death of a child, etc. of how people in these situations "held on" and didn't give up. Well, I have lost two family members to cancer, and I have had cancer twice, and I can personally say that in such a situation if possible anyone who has cancer would gladly WALK AWAY FROM IT, and not "choose" to have a better attitude about it and keep walking with cancer! To try and compare a cancer patients situation - where they have NO CHOICE - with the UMC situation - where there IS A CHOICE is very poor judgement on your part. After watching the UMC over the past 45 years, I have come to conclusion that many in the United Methodist Church are like the person in the parable who is straddling the fence, not sure which side of the fence they want to be on. Then God electrifies the fence to force this person to make a decision - to CHOOSE NOW. My impression of your perspective and many others in the UMC is that you will hold on to the electrified fence (for two more years... after 45 years) and wait and see if hopefully the fence will be turned off soon. You are going to hold on in faith that you will be rewarded for holding on to the fence that God electrified. You are hoping that He will say to you "Good and faithful servant" when in reality he will say - "You are neither hot nor cold, so I spit you out of my mouth." God does call us to forgive, always, but he does not call us to perpetually keep ourselves in a toxic, unhealthy relationship with those who refuse to repent. Jesus even told his followers that there is a TIME TO WALK AWAY and brush the dust off your feet as you do so.
Ann, I am not sure of your premise. Is your premise that of saying that there will be a schism/ Walk Away due to the inability of the very conservative branch of the UMC to convince the more progressive branch to "see things only their way?" Or is your premise is that the more progressive branch should "Walk Away," due to the fact that the very conservative branch cannot see A Way Forward, and allow a Big Tent Methodism, where those conferences and parishes who have no objection to a LBGT+ cleric to serve, and will perform same gender marriages? I "think" that you feel that there will be a split/schism, but are you progressive or conservative? I am one of the progressive UMC members, and live in a conference area that is in Non Conformity, however, that being said, the three UMCs in my area are very conservative, and thus I attend an Open and Affirming UCC. My granddaughter is gender fluid, and attends an Open Community Church in her area, as the local UMC in her area is, also, conservative, although that conference is in Non Conformity. Even in the six conferences that are in Non Conformity, any church has a choice to be progressive or conservative, as to churches in conferences that are In Conformity, have the choice to be progressive or conservative.
Thank you Pastor Rob...peace be with you!
Amen!
Thank you for this message. I've been praying about this for some time now.
How can it be Good News when a church discriminates?
What happened to Open Doors, Open Minds and Open Hearts? Is that still the motto of the UMC? If so, we must live those words, not just print them on our bulletins.
There were many truths spoken by Rob, but those truths can be interpreted two ways.
One, is that we continue on the path we have trod since 1972 and say that the scriptures, as interpreted by Good News, is inerrant when it states that "homosexuality is incompatible with Christian Teaching."
The second path, and one that I feel that Jesus would have trod. This path is that God loves each and every one of us. God made us and we comprise many different races, ethnicities, genders, gender identities and sexual orientations. People in loving, monogamous, relationships, and who support each other, whether they be heterosexual or LBGT should be welcomed and have full inclusion in all aspects of the UMC. This includes Karen Oliveto and her wife, along others serving as clergy or laity. They must be welcomed.
Sadly we did split in the past, when in the 1840s our church split over slavery and some thought that slavery was allowed in our scriptures, others vehemently disagreed. I hope that this will not happen again over the issue of sexual orientation or gender identity.
If we follow the second path, the debate is over. Remember that the BoD has been changed in the past, and, yes, my fellow Methodist Christians, it can be changed again.
To call yourself a Methodist Christian, in the old sense of the word, you must at least take into consideration the Quadrilateral. It states that Scripture is the supreme source for knowing God's will for our lives. The other three corners are lesser and submissive to the corner of Scripture. God's Word does not change. Fallen men's feelings and views of different sins do as the years go by. If you can sit there and state that Christ, Whom is the Living Word (it reveals his nature), would disregard himself and tell his followers that "this sin is fine!," I suggest you spend some serious time in prayer.
If we do not have a fixed point for our morality to hinge on in the Scriptures, just tell me, how are we any different from the rest of the world? Why would they waste their time with us? This is why our UMC is shrinking. We no longer offer the only thing the Church was instructed: Christ Himself.
Will, the Quadrilateral is four tenets held in equal value. Scripture, Tradition, Reason and Experience. No one tenet supersedes another. Scripture is part, and must be read rationally, but we, also, need to use Reason, Tradition, and Experience.
Yes, "I call myself A Christian," and I act as a Christian should, I do not discriminate. I used to attend a Methodist Church but now attend a UCC Church.
The teaching of the Quidrilateral always has Scripture as the supreme source of Christian knowledge, never to be overridden by the other three. Even Wikipedia will tell you that. It's meant to be read rightly, not literally word for word, of course. You just have to figure out which literary device is being used.
Discriminate is now a loaded word that used to be synonymous with "distinguish". However, it is now the same as "prejudice". Christians must distinguish between the lost and saved in order to reach the lost with the Gospel of love--a love that is so strong it refuses to leave people in their broken state.
I realize that you disagree, however, no one tenet of the Quadrilateral supersedes the other, all are of equal value.
Do you recall the lovely motto that the UMC adopted? Open Doors, Open Hearts, Open Minds? If the UMC truly believes this wonderful motto, we must live by it. We, as a church, must be Open to all God's Children and that includes attendees, members and clergy.
I remember reading about how the Methodist Church of the South allowed the ownership of slaves by members and clergy, as "slavery was condoned in the Bible." The Methodist Church in the North did not allow any member or cleric to own slaves, as they felt that Jesus would not want any person to be "owned" by another. The church split over this disagreement.
So, too, unless the conservative branch of the UMC does not agree to a Big Tent Option, we may well split again, over what the "Bible Says," regarding our LBGT+ sisters and brothers.
If this schism does occur, the UMC will reunite, eventually, and I hope that we do not cling to prejudices and have our LBGT+ sisters and brothers relegated to a "Central Jurisdiction" as we did to our African American sisters and brothers in years past.
1. You cannot "disagree" with a fact: the fact that the Quadrilateral holds all four tenets as being equal is simply not true. It was never meant to be interpreted this way. You can read this anywhere.
2. This motto is important, yes. We should welcome all into our congregations. However, we should adhere to the instructions that Paul laid out for pastors in 1 Timothy 3.
3. You're equating something people are born into without a choice (slavery/racial prejudice) to homosexuality, a choice. No one (in the UMC) is out here saying that we should shut homosexuals out of the congregations. Sin is a choice--it is human nature, not God's nature.
You can simultaneously be LGBT and in Christ. However, it will be your new nature growing in Christ to eventually move out of that community, turning away from that sin and toward Jesus. A Christian should not take "pride" in something the Word considers corrupt. I believe by accepting sin as being fine, we are serving as a stumbling block for the young in Christ, as well as those on the outside.
Happy Lord's Day! I'll stop hindering you now. Just felt led to say something.
Pastor Renfroe....I just received my May/June 2017 issue of Good News Magazine, and after reading your Editorial "Eyes on Faith" I was greatly dismayed. In your editorial you said "....I have decided to see what is happening in the church with the eyes of faith". You have personally decided to wait out the next two years to see how the Bishop's Commission on "A Way Forward" comes out. You also tried - and in my opinion very inappropriately - used examples of people who had cancer, ALS, the death of a child, etc. of how people in these situations "held on" and didn't give up. Well, I have lost two family members to cancer, and I have had cancer twice, and I can personally say that in such a situation if possible anyone who has cancer would gladly WALK AWAY FROM IT, and not "choose" to have a better attitude about it and keep walking with cancer! To try and compare a cancer patients situation - where they have NO CHOICE - with the UMC situation - where there IS A CHOICE is very poor judgement on your part.
After watching the UMC over the past 45 years, I have come to conclusion that many in the United Methodist Church are like the person in the parable who is straddling the fence, not sure which side of the fence they want to be on. Then God electrifies the fence to force this person to make a decision - to CHOOSE NOW. My impression of your perspective and many others in the UMC is that you will hold on to the electrified fence (for two more years... after 45 years) and wait and see if hopefully the fence will be turned off soon. You are going to hold on in faith that you will be rewarded for holding on to the fence that God electrified. You are hoping that He will say to you "Good and faithful servant" when in reality he will say - "You are neither hot nor cold, so I spit you out of my mouth."
God does call us to forgive, always, but he does not call us to perpetually keep ourselves in a toxic, unhealthy relationship with those who refuse to repent. Jesus even told his followers that there is a TIME TO WALK AWAY and brush the dust off your feet as you do so.
Ann, I am not sure of your premise. Is your premise that of saying that there will be a schism/ Walk Away due to the inability of the very conservative branch of the UMC to convince the more progressive branch to "see things only their way?"
Or is your premise is that the more progressive branch should "Walk Away," due to the fact that the very conservative branch cannot see A Way Forward, and allow a Big Tent Methodism, where those conferences and parishes who have no objection to a LBGT+ cleric to serve, and will perform same gender marriages?
I "think" that you feel that there will be a split/schism, but are you progressive or conservative?
I am one of the progressive UMC members, and live in a conference area that is in Non Conformity, however, that being said, the three UMCs in my area are very conservative, and thus I attend an Open and Affirming UCC. My granddaughter is gender fluid, and attends an Open Community Church in her area, as the local UMC in her area is, also, conservative, although that conference is in Non Conformity. Even in the six conferences that are in Non Conformity, any church has a choice to be progressive or conservative, as to churches in conferences that are In Conformity, have the choice to be progressive or conservative.
@@carlaskidmore6354 so you're not a UMC member you're a UCC member. Stay with the UCC lady, and take all of the progressives with you. Thanks!