Brazilian Portuguese Gender-Neutral Language (Why I'm Against it)
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- In this video, I explain why I am against gender-neutral language in Brazilian Portuguese.
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#BrazilianPortuguese #LanguageDebate #GenderNeutral #linguagemneutra #InclusiveLanguage #nonbinary #lgbtbrasil
My thoughts as a transgender person regarding your three points:
1. I absolutely agree that it is entirely redundant to use all three forms (I think that politicians specifically may have chosen to do that to pointedly show support for lgbt people because it is a popular issue at the moment), but I agree that the masculine form as the default for mixed gender/neutral works in mostly all circumstances and isn't maliciously sexist or anything like that. Similarly, I agree that gender neutral language in gendered/romance languages is a system that should not be universally adopted because that would unnecessarily uproot a perfectly good preexisting system. However, I do think it's a useful adaptation for the times it's wanted and shouldn't be entirely discouraged. In short, I don't think it should be pushed to become the norm or anything close to that, but I appreciate the benefits of its development for individual cases.
2. I don't agree, however, with your dismissal of the cause of the development of gender neutral language. The same way I am against censorship, I am against the way you seem to "police" (that word choice is extreme but you get what I mean) what constitutes valid language evolution. Why do you get to draw the line of what is a "genuine" need or not? You say you want to keep politics out of language, yet you use your political viewpoint against lgbtq people as reasoning for your claim. Your position on nonbinary people is no less political and should stay out of the discussion.
3. 3) I apologize in advance for my harsher tone: Your third point is entirely cherry-picking to me. It's inconsistent and hypocritical that you don't agree with making adjustments for a minority, yet you are in favor of inhibiting change for another minority. On top of that, if this point truly based in your desire to help dislexic/deaf/blind people, and isn't just a argumentative tactic (which I believe it to be), you would also be against slang and natural evolution of language (I'm assuming you're not) because those kinds of changes pose the same problems for those disadvantaged people. I don't disagree that the obstacles you mentioned about are real, but pretending like the make-or-break point would be gender neutral language is very silly. Lastly on this point, the whole argument doesn't make sense because gender neutral language (in my option) is not meant to be inclusive of 100% of people, but it is meant to be an *option* for those who are typically excluded by gendered language.
I think there is a push by some for extreme/radical changes that I do not agree with at all, and I recognize that you're mostly talking about that the phenomenon in this video, so please understand that I do not possess those radical views. But I do believe that the creation of a neutral option for certain situations is not a bad thing and is in total beneficial.
Sorry for the very long response; I hope you'll take the time to read it and consider my points. And finally, thank you for your help with Portuguese!
Hi, Kit. Thank you for your counter-points. I had decided not to engage with anyone who didn't make an effort to present a coherent counter-argument. Although we disagree on some points, I appreciate that you tried to express your views respectfully.
I'd like to clarify a few points that may not have been clear in my video (maybe I'll address them in a future follow-up video).
1. First, we both agree that a gender-neutral system should not be universally adopted. You mentioned it should be "an option." However, in Brazil, the reality is that there is a push to include it in law and make it mandatory for schools to teach. Not only politicians, but also Brazilian celebrities, newspapers, and magazines are increasingly using it. There is pressure for people to use it, and those who express an opinion against it may face consequences such as being called names or labelled as "hateful." (I should know!) While I believe individuals can use it if they want to, they shouldn't force it on others. I think we agree on that.
2. Regarding your second point, I don't intend to dictate what constitutes valid language development. I don’t know how you got that from my video. It's just my opinion. Language naturally evolves, but I firmly stand by my point in the video that gender-neutral language is not an organic change; it originates from gender ideology. Rejecting this ideology doesn't mean I'm against LGBT people. As a gay man myself, I reject the new ideology of gender identity and identity politics in general. That certainly doesn't make me hateful (like some people called me) and It certainly doesn't make me "against LGBT" people, nor it makes me disrespectful towards any group of people. This subject is essential to the discussion and one of the reasons why I oppose gender-neutral language. Expressing my opinion doesn't mean I'm trying to control or dictate what others should think.
3. I also stand by my third point. In your comment, you assume a lot about my intentions when mentioning other minorities affected by gender-neutral language. You suggest I'm treating it as a “make-or-break” point, but I never implied that, but I do believe it is an important point among the three reasons I mentioned. You argue that it's hypocritical for me not to support adjustments for a minority, but I believe it's hypocritical for proponents of gender-neutral language to use "inclusivity" as a reason while disregarding the needs of other minority groups that would be heavily affected by its adoption. Additionally, it's important to note that the system being pushed is not just minor adjustments to the language; it involves a whole new set of grammatical rules, making texts in gender-neutral language practically unreadable.
I understand that you don't hold radical or extreme views and prefer neutral language as an "option." My opinions on the other hand are based more on the current reality of gender-neutral language being pushed to be widely adopted by society in Brazil, as I explained at the beginning of my comment.
Obrigado!
@@fwbp Thank you so much for your reply. It seems we 100% agree on point #1.
Regarding #2, I apologize for assuming your opinions and generalizing your statements. I'm not a fan of identity politics either (however, with the information that I have now, I don't understand how you as a gay man can "reject" fellow queer people-but that is a discussion for another time). Even though it's not organic, I think that fact shouldn't disqualify it from being an addition to language.
On point #3, I think we agree. The aggressive changes being pushed should not be happening, and it's always difficult to optimize accessibility.
Based on what you've told me about what's happening in Brazil (which my silly american ass was not well informed of), I understand your video and where you're coming from much more.
It's so rare these days that people can actually have respectful discussions about this things and so I really appreciate you for that.
@@kit15925 Thanks, Kit. You did assume more things about me though! 😀 You assumed I "reject" queer people (I never said that) and by saying "fellow queer people" you assume that I describe myself as queer. I describe myself as gay (as in male homosexual). I'm not even keen on the word queer either - I didn't grow up in the UK, but I know a lot of British gay men were bullied by being called "queer" when they were at school - they still see it as a slur. As a gay man, or even better, "as a person" I do reject gender identity. I have my own opinions regardless of my sexual orientation. That's what gender identity does, it puts people into their identity boxes - it says that gay men should all think the same, that there is only one right way of thinking. My observation above doesn't take away the fact that I did enjoy our exchange and I really appreciate you having taken the time to have a respectful debate. But now, I must go and get on with making more videos - exclusively on the language itself though, no more controversial subjects (at least for now! 😆). Obrigado!
@@fwbp You're completely right, the history of that word as a slur is heavy, and understandably, not everyone is comfortable with it so again, I sincerely apologize. We seem to disagree about gender identity a bit but I respect your opinion.
I also respect your time so you do not have to reply to this comment; I prefer you spend your energy making more amazing videos :)
muito obrigado 💛
@@kit15925 Thanks, Kit! I appreciate it! 🙌🙏🇧🇷😊
As a woman, I absolutely do not get offended if someone only says "todos" rather than "todos e todas". I 100% agree that gender-neutral language is unnecessary and the way it's politicized nowadays is beyond crazy. Not sure if I agree with your reason #3 - over time, I feel like this wouldn't be an issue, but it would of course take decades potentially. However, I am very happy to see someone putting this up on the Internet these days and not being worried about what the "woke" mainstream might think ;)
Thank you very much, Eva. I should have been clearer in the video, that this ILE system basically rewrites the whole grammar, it's not just a couple of changes. There is a manual online, a PDF, that sets out all the changes, it changes the whole language. So, it would be a huge problem for people who already face challenges accessing the language, so it really isn't "inclusive" at all.
Not to mention that the ending "e" is not necessarily gender neutral. All nouns that end in "e" also have a gender, they are either masculine and feminine. So we cannot really escape the binary in the Portuguese Language. And this really shouldn't offend anyone because it comes from a grammatical perspective. No one says "todos" with the intention to offend or exclude. Now, imagine if we had to teach the gender neutral option to our students as well, how difficult it would be... Thank you for this video.
That's true. It's important to bear in mind as well, that none of this has ever been a problem in Brazil, until only a few years ago, when gender ideology started.
This should be shown in workplaces and schools. It is a well-structured and convincing argument and I agree with every single statement.
Muito obrigado! 🙂
I think I can understand the gender-neutral complication in a romance/germanic(?) language from your explanation and points. I wondered how this 'inclusive' change happened. Learned Spanish (forgot most of it) in high school, it was my first dive knowing about a language different linguistically and grammatically from both English and Khmer. Honestly, I think all languages have their own unique spin on communicating their reality, it is why some words can't be translated exactly or lose the 'emotion' or humor from original context alluded.
In the language I speak, Khmer (Cambodian), there is gender distinction in speech, but everyone is usually 'one/it' as oppose to 'him/her/they' regarding objective third person, formal (one) and informal (it) respectively. You can basically never gender yourself, unless you add suffix (I-he, I-she) or prefix if you are addressing the person in question, but at default it's usually preferably 'social/familial', sometimes, a distant neutral sense. There are different ways to say 'I' and 'you' (at least thirty pronouns), but depends on 'relationship status', 'profession', 'familial', and/or 'age'. It's one language that can combine two pronouns for emphasis, but has specific rules.
Awesome explanation Fernando. Having worked for many years amongst people with Learning Disabilities, in my opinion you could not be more right. Obrigado!
Thank you very much! It's never been about real inclusivity - it's about pushing an ideology.
Peço desculpas por comentar em português, mas quero comunicar uma mensagem clara.
Você fez muito bem em se posicionar contra (e foi bem suscinto, inclusive). Vejo que muitos professores de português aqui no RUclips (inclusive alguns que ensinam português para estrangeiros) têm sido lenientes ou até favoráveis com relação a isso. Não acho necessário temer ofender alguém quando simplesmente se fala sobre algo que já deveria ser óbvio e evidente, e que só pode ser confundido por malabarismos retóricos ideológicos de função claramente doutrinária e subversiva. Pois é disso que se trata a linguagem neutra: subversão cultural e manipulação política.
A propósito, essa é uma questão enfrentada por todo o Ocidente, não só o Brasil.
Fico feliz pelo seu trabalho, e pelo seu auxílio aos estrangeiros com a língua portuguesa. ❤
Completely agree, Fernando. 👍
Muito obrigado, Susana! É ótimo poder contar com o apoio de outros professores! 🙌
I’m not even studying Portuguese, but Spanish. This video came up in my suggestions and I thought it was an interesting topic. I agree with your well thought out points.
Obrigado! 👍
Great video and I agree whole-heartedly. Languages evolve naturally and are not forced upon its users. Any compelled speech is harmful and a dangerous precedence. You're brave for discussing this topic. Beware of incoming cancellation from the woke mob!!!
😆😆 Obrigado! I’ve had a few hateful messages but nothing I can’t deal with. It just shows they don’t have an argument and have to resort to insults. 😄😄
@@fwbp It's just funny that as soon you don't agree with their nonsense you're labelled as anti-LGBT. Every gay guy I've talked to is against it and even the only trans person I follow online (Blair White) also is against this pronoun hysteria. Seems like the only people that want to force this upon everybody are the government, liberal academic institutions and white, twenty-something feminazis.
Thank you for your videos and posting something that could be seen as “controversial”. We should be allowed to state our opinions too, never let the hate and ability to not welcome others’ opinions stop you. Your videos are great for learning Portuguese. God bless.
Thank you very much, Kaitlyn. I really appreciate your support. Muito obrigado! 🙏
I liked you before, but I like you even better now.
Muito obrigado, Kerry! That means a lot! 😊😊
Great video!!! I support fully.
Muito obrigado! 😊😊
🇧🇷Legendas em Português estão disponíveis neste vídeo.
Carmen Miranda says mamãe eu quero!
What??? 😄😄
I'm a teen that loves learning languages and cultures. I've actually been kicked out of a Brazilian server for refusing to use gender neutral pronouns. When I learn Portuguese, I learned ele, ela and eles. The server I was in had a shopping list of singular pronouns that I never heard of: (ael, el, el@, élu, elx, île, ilu, êla, ilo, olá, elo). Portuguese is already a hard language, why would you overcomplicate it? When I seen gender neutral articles, nous and pronouns, I don't even know what I'm reading anymore. I rely on patterns to learn a language.
Very interesting. You’d get canceled in USA for this message lol
Never mind being cancelled, in some countries, you could go to prison for having the "wrong" opinion.
I agree with you Fernando, it is just pandering for those few extra votes for the political parties who sometimes rule by tiny margins. Unfortunately this is a sad but global phenomenon, and the proponents are completely disingenuous. On another note, cool to see you here on RUclips, I got off insta for a while, and you reminded me how uplifting your videos are 🥰. Fique com Deus e tudo de bom Fernando querido!! Abraçao!!
Muito obrigado! Great to hear you enjoy my videos! I'm excited about making videos for RUclips again - but I will also continue to do short, sillier videos for Insta! 😀😀
Show professor, arrasou, parabéns pela explicação! ❤
Valeu, Raquel! 🙌
Finalmente alguém com coragem para falar sobre isto! Parabéns Fernando!!! Que sejam o que querem livres e felizes mas deixem a língua em paz!!! ❤ a liberdade consiste em ser se livre e saber não impor as suas vontades aos outros! Deixemos a beleza da língua na sua História 😊
Muito obrigado, Anita. Fico muito feliz de poder contar com o teu apoio! 🙌 Sempre admirei muito o teu trabalho e agora mais ainda! 😊🇧🇷🇵🇹❤️
@@fwbp igualmente de mim para ti 🧡🍀 um abraço e continua 👍
That was very good deep thinking Fernando, thanks for posting your thoughts!
Obrigado, Daniela! 😀
Pra mim o pior é "todes" .
É ridicule! 😆 Mesmo “Todos e todas”. Completamente desnecessário.
Amazing! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Muito obrigado, Isabella! 🙌🙏😊
I’m Brazilian living in the U.K. , that neutral language is already extremely confusing and unnecessary in English, but in Portuguese just sound stupiddd as f , I’m gay I’m all about anyone live the life they want, but this generation live on strangers validation , call yourself they , frog frog self , Whatever you do you boo, what you don’t do is force strangers to go with wherever go in your head, im not your therapist, ask your family and friends to go with it , not me
Obrigado por deixar um comentário. Concordo com você 100%! 🙌
Couldn't agree more ! & could.not.put.it.a.ny.bétter ! Thank you kind & intélligent sir ! GBY!
Muito obrigado! 🙏
Concordo. Parabéns, Fernando. Muitos professores no IG ou no RUclips preferem não opinar sobre política ou questões sociais por medo de reduzir o número de seguidores.🏆
Muito obrigado! Eu normalmente não gosto de opinar sobre assuntos de política e ou questões sociais não por ter medo de perder seguintes mas simplesmente porque não tem a ver com a proposta de ensinar português. A minha opinião sobre esses assuntos é irrelevante. Mas, nesse caso, como eu expliquei no vídeo, é um assunto que afeta a língua portuguesa, então achei importante me posicionar.
As a transgender person who loves your teaching, I am very saddened to hear you dismiss non-binary people's struggle for acknowledgement as not being a "genuine linguistic need." I'm sorry if my tone is harsh, but how can you tell trans people that how we are referred to in virtually all social interactions is not important enough for consideration? Do you really think that referring to 1.2% of Brazilians in a dignifying manner (more than 2 million people) is not a "genuine linguistic need"?
To be trans is to fight everyday to be perceived as you are, and language is one of the easiest and most fundamental ways of acknowledging our existence. Saying that you would rather not refer to people as non-binary is just a gentler way of saying that you do not think transgender people are not real at all. If you really respected our identities, you would refer to us how we wish to be referred to.
Additionally, the idea that incorporating more gender neutral pronouns into language significantly hinders the lives of dyslexic, blind, and deaf people is absurd and unsubstantiated. Adapting language and everyday communication to accommodate trans people requires an extremely minimal amount of relearning that anyone is capable of.
Once more, I greatly respect and enjoy your teaching, and I hope that you will recognize why this message is hurtful for us.
Glad to know that you love my teaching. Regarding your comment, It's disingenuous to say that the opinion I express in the video comes from a place of disrespect. No, I don't recognise that my message is hurtful to you. But I have no control over people's assumptions of me. I stand by my video 100%. I've just written a reply to another trans person @kit15925 - you can go and read that. Obrigado!
Thank you for staying true to reality and not giving into that LGBT idiocracy 👏👏
Thanks, Jimmy! I appreciate it. 🙌
your video is quite disrespectful. you realize deaf, blind, and dyslexic people can be non-binary as well? And that defaulting to the masculine as the gender neutral is not fair to women? I bet you wouldn’t like if the gender neutral was todas. Todes allows equality, its for both men, women, and non binary people. It’s something that’s inclusive for your gender expression, and even then you find it redundant to be inclusive of women who are half the population.
I don't think my video was disrespectful. I think it was quite balanced, but of course, you're entitled to your opinion. Of course, people in those groups I mentioned can identify as "non-binary" as well, but I don't think it's a stretch to assume that it would be a tiny minority, considering the poll done with the population as a whole. I think it would reflect that. So, that doesn't invalidate my point of "language neutral language" catering to a minority, disregarding the majority. You say the neutral masculine is not fair to women. How do you know if you identify as non-binary? It seems that the majority of people who have a problem with it are the ones who identify as non-binary, not actual women. Besides, "todos" **is** inclusive of women, as well as men, and everyone else. That was my point.
@@fwbp im not non-binary. From your comment, you are saying being inclusive to a minority means to exclude the majority, which is so untrue. You should try to think why todos includes everyone and not todas. It’s patriarchal, language has power and enforces socio-economic indifferences, where as gender neutral language is freeing us from it, including us men.
Sorry, my bad, I shouldn’t have assumed that you identified as non-binary. I should have said “as a man you seem to be sure about what women find is not fair to them”. With regards to the rest, we’ll have to agree to disagree. Thank you for taking the time to comment, though.
From a perspective of a trans person, your video is *extremely* disrespectful, from your use of wig, Dave Chapelle, laughter clips, to the hateful message you try to disguise as "but it is just my opinion". Own your hate.
@@xtraactive As someone who actually uses they/them (as well as she/her) pronouns, I don't believe the video is disrecpectful at all.
The use of a wig? Wigs are used in theatre and comedy sketches. It is a prop in his video skits, nothing more.
Dave Chapelle? It's a clip that's a very famous meme.
As I said, I am someone who identifies as she/her as well as they/them (some days I just don't feel like a "she/her" as much as others, and I also don't mind being called they/them), I found this video very interesting to watch. I can see that it came from a place of simply expressing an opinion in a completely respectful and lighthearted way. For sure, if I told Fernando to use they/them with me, he would, no doubt - he is not a hateful person who would reject that, I'm sure. In English, the use of gender neutral language is becoming more popular, which I'm very happy about and it's intriguing for me as a linguist to see. I didn't once get triggered by watching Fernando's video here. Why? Because he just stated an opinion in a lighthearted and factual way. We can all share opinions without attacking one another. So, while I disagree with the rejection of gender neutral language 100%, I still love to hear what others say about it. I don't think Fernando's opinions are any less than mine. In fact, it's so interesting to hear another person's perspective on this from a completely different angle, and I fully understand his points.
We can all disagree here without getting too heated. Remember, arguing isn't about 'winning' and showing who is the person that's more in the wrong. It's about expanding your views and getting into the heads of other people. It challenges your own way of thinking too, and can either change or strengthen your beliefs. This is what makes these kinds of discussions so interesting.
Anyway, muito obrigada, Fernando! I found it interesting and also learnt what the gender neutral terms are in Portuguese! I'd always wondered what they were.
👏👏