The performances of the genetic dynasty and Demerzel really stole the show on that side of the story. Some twists I didn’t see coming at all, and not in a bad way. Some stuff that bugs the book reader in me, but a pretty solid ending all things considered. I’ve been working on a Demerzel video so that’s coming soon, and will be putting out a season 2 questions one after I think about it for a few days. Let me know what questions you have for that.
I am looking forwards to your promised video on the differences between TV show and the books for Episode 9 and 10.. I think it will be a herculean effort in your part... :)
Ok, got a few questions.. Who are they using as a science advisor in the show? I mean, they "bought" time by faking a solar flare in the Terminus system.. How does that buy them time. Trantor is 50k light years away.. so, they wont see the flare for 50k years.. Even Anacreon (the closest planet to Terminus) is 27 light years away.. How is that buying them time? The fake Solar Flare will have reached zero planets in the next 18 months. Why could the Empire not come investigate what happened to their missing ship a lot sooner than that? If there was a massive flare in the closest star to us, we could not see it for 2 years.... Another question.. How did Salvor know where to land in Synnex. Which submerged building was the right one to go to sleep right next to? Why did Demerzel freaked out? Was it cause she killed Dawn? Cause nobody told her to do it. She acted on her own, which, to me, it indicates she did not have to.. Is it cause her programming forced her to kill an impure clone? If that's the case, I guess Brother Day is also dead once she knows he is also impure? Why did the Anacreon and Thespis forces LISTENED to Hari? they had no history with him. What did Anacreon and Thespis gain from joining up with Terminus? most of the Terminus tech people died taking the Invictus.. The Captain is a Thespisian.. They will build a new ship in 18 months.. But Terminus has no natural resources, and in Episode 9 we saw them lose their power source (when Salvor's father blew the thermal power plant and the Anacreon ships).
Love your reviews. Brother day actor is the established star of the series, the rest of the actors being less known kind of hinted at who would get more or less screen time.
I have problems with the Cleon situation. Dusk should have poetically been killed due to his inhumaniy. Dawn and Day both showed an extention beyond the inhuman "purity" programming, and that the meaning behind it turned out to be itrrelevant. Dawn was the only one of the three that was shown not to be a monster. Writing like that doesn't win my confidence, and reveals short sightedness for future story lines. Dusk should have died horribly, while Day almost appeared to be trying to redeem his previous crimes against humanity by standing up for Dawn. Demerzel also turned out to be a huge disappointment. If she "truly" cared about others, she would have saved the young one due to his attempts to survive with logic and reasoning, as well as never having harmed anyone. The show lacked a lot of heart with the dominance of ruthlessness and villainny throughtout. And Salvor along with Gaal proved weak with a lack of ability to stand up to terrible menaces along the way. Only in episode 9 did Salvor take out her nemesis, which she should have done so long before. Hari Seldon hasn't shown any reason to believe in what he has "planned". His epic return in this episode fizzled without any indication if he will be back with a meaningful vision and pathway to take the story to a better place. I need to be able to care about the characters as well as what is going to happen next. This episode shows that that premise I just described is irrelevant, and their is no meaningful continuity to Asimov's original story or anyone worth following at this point. Disposable plot lines and characters. Hari Seldon doesn't appear to give two shits to what is going to happen to anyone either. It can end here.
The scene with Azura had me glued to the screen. Lee Pace’s acting in the finale was so strong. The way he was selling his conflicted emotions was so so good.
@@jacobdenness8659 Lee Pace should be in more shows in the U.S. Pushing Daises was a FANTASTIC show, with Lee Pace, Anna Friel and Kristin Chenoweth were great in that show. More Lee Pace please. And yes, that scene was incredible. Amy Tyger did a great job in the show. More Gaal is something to look forward to (along with more Alfred Enoch, if possible). This really was a well cast show.
I'm still holding on to my idea that we haven't seen the last of Azura.....she is not out and out dead, and can be resuced in some way down the road.......but since I'm usually worng about these things, I'll go with the group's consensus - whatever it may be!
@@chca5862 Actually, no. The clones are not human... They are clones.. She can kill clones all day long and it will not contradict the laws of robotics. :)
I feel bad for brother dawn the most. 1) He trusted azura with his fears and feeling and he got betrayed. 3) He trusted demrezel and confided his fears in her. And she killed him.
I wonder when they wake up the "new" dawn from the water tank. What would be his reaction? The last thing he would remembered is hugging demrezel and then getting killed by her. But I guess since gaal woke up its been 136 years and we would see new set of cleons.
@@susen98 thats the point. He probably won't wake up, because he isnt considered the real clone. Probably try to purify the DNA and have a new baby, breaking the cycle. Remember the first Cleon only had a child left after he died.
@@cocoyeabroom2505 Even worse, I think she might have killed both the other Cleons if they are 'Adulterated', hence that crazy end scene of her ripping her face and screaming
Yeah, loved that she waited until Day ruled, and then she took her revenge, once dusk and day were fighting. I suspect she's gone from the show now. With no compulsion to obey a corrupted dynasty.
@@cocoyeabroom2505 yeap it was sad too. Brother dawn was the most empathic one out of all cleons. He trusted demrezel with his fears and he got betrayed the most brutal way
It’s funny because throughout the season I was way more invested in the Cleons (who are the “villains” of the story) than the Foundation-ites on Trantor with their skirmish with the Anachreons and their lying AI messiah. Everyone in the Empire seems to be trapped - the Cleons have to follow their birthright or get swapped out for a clone who will and Demerzel has to keep the trains on the tracks - even if it means killing the boy she raised and loves. They are all kind of prisoners of the original Cleon - even though he died 400 years ago. Tragic and fascinating at the same time.
Book stuff: Just as a side, the Cleon we meet in the books is definitely not a villain, he's actually quite a clever and benevolent ruler and becomes very close with Hari Seldon himself, who ends up serving in Dermezel's role as first councilor after that character leaves Trantor for reasons I won't spoil. Asimov generally describes how rulers tend to follow a pattern of benevolence-decadence-malevolence-benevolence...the idea being that a ruler sets up an era of prosperity, his heir is usually lazy and uncaring allowing things to start falling apart and then either an heir or outside influence brutally cracks down to regain order. A lot of that is pulled directly from the history of the Roman empire. Suffice to say, Cleon is a good guy in the books but his later successors are not.
@@PanamaLane I appreciate this semi-spoiler, I'm working my way to see if the Audiobook version exists, but You tie things nicely. The semi-spoiler being the idocracy of human conquering vis-a-vis remaining in power 'ruling' dynamics, as you put it: "Asimov generally describes how rulers tend to follow a pattern of benevolence-decadence-malevolence-benevolence...the idea being that a ruler sets up an era of prosperity, his heir is usually lazy and uncaring allowing things to start falling apart and then either an heir or outside influence brutally cracks down to regain order."
That is sort of the story of Psychohistory. But Asimov had a few twists on that line of thinking, and I don't know where this show seems to be going instead, as it deviates quite a bit.
theyre making it so hard to dislike brother day even after all the horrible things hes done. dusk set them on a path of ruin, day was able to see it in time and tried to cultivate the seed of change in dawn only for things to end horribly for all 3.
The addition of the genetic dynasty was a stroke of genius... The problem with turning this story in to a tv series was always going to be the spanning of thousands of years... Meant they cannot build the connection with strong characters which is necessary for any good story.... However they solved that by creating a mix of consistent characters that will always be around... There is the robot who is immortal.. and there is now Harry who is now a digital conciousness projection - also immortal... And of course the genetic cycle Cleon... Who are new people but the same character on going... Brilliantly solving the consistent character building we needed. Of course with Gaal they have thrown her and salvor in to cryosleep for hundreds of years to allow them both to pop in and out of certain points of the ever expanding years this story goes for.
The genetic dynasty was a highlight, but the time jumps and cryopods hurt the character depth and continuity of the story a lot. They're literally just freezing characters when they're unnecessary, thawing them out to act their part and move the plot in the way the writers want, then putting them back in the freezer until required again. It makes them very one dimensional; we never get to see them act independently of the plot points, never know where their motivations come from, and never really connect with them as a result. Their psychic "I just know what will happen" instincts make it even worse, because not even they understand what they're doing most of the time.
Agreed. Successful tv shows need its audience to be invested in its main characters. That would be hard to do if the show followed the books too close because no one was around for any amount of time, save Harry, and he was nothing more than a series of recordings. Gaal and Salvor were pretty much throwaways in the books so 5he writers could expand on their stories without too much trouble, and turning Harry into an AI was I think a no-brainer. Cleon was a brilliant change. They gave us a set of characters you could be invested in, figured out a way to logically keep them in the show, and expanded 5he story by showing events from Empire’s standpoint. Who couldn’t feel for Day, who just wanted to be free of the chains of Destiny, or even Dusk who as brutal as he could be was obviously dealing with those same feelings? Like any show there are bits and pieces you can pick apart, but unless inconsistencies or errors are just blazingly bad, most of it is people being anal and/or trying to impress with their self perceived intelligence. So far a solid show.
@@Feroxing12 David ( show runner ) made an excellent point in the last podcast, Asimov didn’t write the series with a overall plan, he just made more Foundation stories because they sold better than the others, ie riffing. I reread the books when I heard Apple where making the show. It has holes… I’m reassured that none of the characters where filmed chatting on their iPhone 😏
Asimov did not have a powerful Emperor except for the next to last one. It made more sense that one individual could not make a difference in this kind of Empire. Only a structure could could it together for 10,000 years. That structure’s decay was the basis of Asimov’s story. A strong individual could work for a generation, but must fail, thereby validating Asimov’s premise. TV drama lives on the belief that individuals make a difference in every situation. We must have drama!
@@OneEyedMonkey9000 I could not disagree more. Perhaps it was not all planned out in the books, but it all fit together perfectly and much better than the show is pulling off here. I do agree however that the genetic dynasty was an interesting and not unwelcome addition, but they are butchering my favorite character in Dermezel. What about the laws of robotics? What about the ability to manipulate minds? A robot should be unable to kill, period. They are also completely whiffing on the point of psychohistory and it's origins. I'm half expecting them to turn Seldon into a mass murdering terrorist behind the bombing, which is plainly disgusting. And the shoot-shoot-bang-bang action crap belongs in Star Wars, not in a deeply philosophical work that emphasizes intelligence triumphing over strength at all points.
@@PanamaLane Agree, the "shoot em up" crap always notches things down for me. I suppose they think that's what 14 year old boys need to like the thing.
I appreciated that Easter egg of our solar system displayed on demerzel’s desk! I wonder if they will elaborate further on the ‘mystery’ of Earth in later seasons.. if the later books are anything to go by.. Or it could just imply she is the only being that remembers Earth/the Sol System.
I think it's an Easter egg indicating that she is the only being in the galaxy that actually remembers Earth. She may even be one of the last robots built on Earth before (spoiler). We know she is at least 4,000 years old and is quite possibly much much older.
Wow, I didn't realize the genetic dynasty was an addition to the show (haven't read the books). I really like the show, but the genetic dynasty is by far the most fascinating and engaging story arc to me!
I fell so bad for bother day. He was really trying his best to change the empire. I wonder how brother dawn would have reacted had he known brother day though of him as his son too.
Brother day is a savage! He gonna be aight! Don’t worry about that! Azura now… say a prayer for that girl! I mean does God even remember who she is at this point? Damn Day!
I think Demerzel realized that keeping Dawn alive would cause too much strife with the Cleons and bring about the fall even faster. She made a hard decision hence her scream of frustration at the end. Maybe revenge against Day played a part but I think it was more about keeping immediate stability.
Pace's brief break in his voice when he exclaimed "No!" highlighted XIII's shock, grief and despair over XIV's death for me, thanks to the culminating emotions around XIV's fate.
Dermezel for me has been the central figure and most captivating story line throughout the series. A seemingly sentient AI, she has been around for several millennia watching humanity rise and fall and rise again. At the beginning of this series we find her 400 years into an engineered program designed to maintain and promote a "peace" and well being for the human race that is diverse and spread out over the vastness of a galaxy. She is aware of the dynasty's shortfalls and its successes. Was the dynasty her brain child or was she just the designer and architect of the cloning program? One thing we don't know is what Dermezel thought of Hari Seldon and the Foundation. It seems to me She is the "living" embodiment of the prime radiant. Dermezel has personally experienced a very large sample of humanity's existence and history and she never forgets anyone or anything. I would guess her computational powers would far exceed those of a Gaal Dornick or Hari Seldon making her a better predictive modeler. Dermezel"s shedding/shredding of her human facade, I believe, is her overwhelming frustration for the failure of the dynasty and her deep seeded love for humanity.
And let's not forget the curious depiction of Earth and the rest of our solar system on her repair kit at a time when the Empire had long forgotten where humanity came from. To me it looked like she couldn't suppress her conflicted emotions after killing Dawn and the excretion of tears from her one eye. So instead of painstakingly fixing it with one of her tools, she's so overcome with her motherly feelings and killing a "son" to protect the "family", that in her rage she just rips off her human appearance altogether. Chilling to see her with her full robotic head like that.
Demerzel ripping her own "human" face off could be representative of her conflicting programming. She stated clearly that she is loyal to the Cleonic Dynasty above all else, but what if she also is subject to Asimov's traditional Robotic Laws? What if the coding that makes her loyal to the Genetic Dynasty simply precedes, but does not overwrite her traditional Robotic Laws that make her loyal to humans/humankind? What if she sees that the Genetic Dynasty will be the doom of humankind, but she also has programming that makes her loyal to that same Dynasty? She would be "torn" (yes, pun intended) internally/emotionally as she tries to reconcile the two conflicting "rules/laws". I agree wholeheartedly though, Demerzel was the most interesting part of the show for me, by far. Not to downplay the rest of the show, which I actually greatly enjoyed.
@@GattisonPrime I think your post best approximates how I read that scene as well. It was an act of the most extreme anguished frustration at her situation.
Thanks Pete for all the effort you put into releasing these videos - they have been my go to - especially love reading comments and the way you speak and articulate come from a skillful place.
First rule of character development: make the audience sympathize. Cleons, despite being clones and god-like emperors, are incredibly relatable in that they try to run from pain and fail. Even in their god-like power, they are not immune to disaster and mortal agony, making us feel something for them. You can hate them, you can despise them, but you cannot unfeel their pain. I also like how they've managed to create subtle nuances in each of the Cleons. The one that started as Day and was Dusk by season's end was more brutal. The one that started as Dawn and was Day by season's end was more compassionate and tried to understand people. This is why he was willing to cheat the system in order to protect his younger self.
That conversation between Brother Day and Azura hooked me to my core. That was a fantastic script and acting. Simple my evil and very smart. Loved it. Probably my favorite part.
Actually, I think they’re attempting to bring her inline with the books, in a sense, in that she might have killed him to keep the dynasty from changing, meaning if it can adapt and change, it won’t break, thus ensuring it breaks. I think she is responsible for altering the source dna.
@@karl2405 I also think smtn like that. She protected the dynasty. But I figure she wouldn't be killing him because he's an imperfect copy had two "perfect" ones agreed on it. But now, if this slightly changed, replaceable copy, is to bring chaos and division between two more powerful Cleons, than better just snap the boy's neck and be done with it. Demersal, having choice, believes in change, chooses evolution over stagnation, but if she's imposed this impossible choice, she has to side with the original Cleon, not with Dusk, or Day, but with Cleon I. It's not like she liked watching hanged people swinging, bombing barbarians, killing that black bitch, or anything of the sort. Also, she did ask Cleon I if he'd like to consider marriage and have son, she's not programmed to kill every Cleon spotted eating food in wrong order. At least wasn't programmed that way when Cleon II was already growing in some water tank. She was willing to accept Cleon II who would be 50% Cleon I, why, after 400 years, would she kill Cleon XIV because he's 99.99% Cleon I?
I agree with your thoughts of the season, as usual! Started strong, lagged a little, then picked up the pace, yes the Trantor storyline was always more engaging, I did wander a little during the extended Terminus arc scenes and episodes, but the dynasty idea has been Apple's best touch, it's so well done I forget that it wasn't in the original material, a perfect weave. Love the casting, and can't wait for the next season, I always seek your follow ups straight after I watch the expanse or Foundation because they're just so engaging and relatable, so thanks again and here's to many more Pete!
It does seem that the two foundation Hari’s are not networked because foundation two Hari would have known Gaal was not on Terminus. Also, now that Hari has admitted to being a revolutionary the attack on the star bridge looks to be too convenient to the plot not for him to have had a hand in it. If it comes out in the future that he did, it could complicate the alliance of foundation one. As for Demerzel something is going to pop if it turns out that there is no more pure DNA to create any more clones this would put her in a strange position with what she feels and her programming. Her programming will make her see all the clones as a threat but if she acts on it there will be no more clones left and no dynasty. As for Gaal and Salvor reuniting at the end I did think this was a little rushed but there is only so much you can fit into a ten run season. And thankyou to Pete for the episode recaps.👍
Good thing that both Seldons arenot networked as at least then they still keep to the original Asimovs' novel idea that Hari does not know about the events in the future, in the original he is like a recording that says what will happen in future according to psychohistory and provides solutions to ''Seldon crises'', if they get networked that idea goes out of the window too, as then we do not get WTF moments like when psychohistory plan he made is derailed and actually events in real life unfold differently
@@irmaosmatos4026 You might have missed the point... Psychohistory is the mask that Hari invented to build his vision of the future. Sure, there's some real math employed, but it's only conveniently understood by Gaal - who has an incentive to support Hari. It was enough to rally supporters to join his cause and then orchestrate his "immortal will" on the events thereafter.
I am a non reader of the Foundation novels and feel nothing but complete and total amazement for this story. I love this show. There is no way this could have been done as a movie not even this story line. I’m looking forward to your continued reviews, analysis & expectations. Perhaps I will get into reading the books between now and the second season. Apparently they are in the basement of my mothers house as she says she read them all, lol.
tbh, Foundation novels only start to have ''meat'' with the introduction of the Mule, which for this show might be end of season 3 or maybe even season 4. Up till then it's just a few short stories, like no wonder they introduced Clone emperors and Gaal stuff, as there is like 100 pages in the novel of events taking place in season 1. You cannot adapt 100 pages for 10 episodes, there's very little in terms of details in early Foundation stories. Even season 2 material is the same, very little details.
But wait! What about that moment when Demrezel touches the small of Dawn’s back. Made me think she had some sort of plan to save him. A part of me thinks she’s behind the adulterated clones. She has the most access.
Yep that was my first thought as well!! Her ending made it seem even more so. Almost like she couldn’t quite cope with what she’d actually done. We’ll see ;)
Her touching Dawn’s back to nudge him into the room made me think of when she pushed that earlier Dusk forward against his wishes to be incinerated on his ascension day.
It was a similar gesture to when she urged previous Dusk to walk into the Vaporisor. I think it was a hint that to her this walk to the throne room was Dawn's last one.
@@LadyJay882 this would play into the concept that she created the Cleons, and as well, that she adulterated them -- sort of like a motherly reassurning touch for one she holds dear.
Man i really feel for Demerzel, she chose to kill brother Dawn in a way to show him mercy while being truly honest in that she did love him, which leads me to believe she does love all the Cleons but she may have loved Dawn more especially because he was different, and man just Demerzel's arc, the poor Android, I'd really just like to give her a hug (if she promised not to snap my neck)
I'm remined of the scene where Brother Night says something is wrong when the baby Dawn is crying and she makes sure he doesn't look into it and becomes ash.
I've just finished season 1. I have to say I'm glad I didn't read any reviews in advance because my favourite parts are generally the ones people seem to have disliked. The time jumps, the sprawling narrative strands and Gaal and Salvor's journeys. Don't get me wrong. I do think the genetic dynasty is fascinating writing - especially if it wasn't in the books - but it's the female leads and the foundation itself that had me hooked. Just goes to prove there can be something for everyone and we all interpret things differently. Looking forward to starting season 2 and your recaps have been super useful!
What an ending, there are so many layers to this story and I'm wondering what some of those mean for the future. Can't wait for next season, thanks for all your coverage of this Pete, you've done an awesome 👍 job.
I don't think Demerzel killed Brother Dawn out of a desire for revenge or specifically because he was different. I think it was mainly because Brothers Day and Dusk were so divided about what to do with Dawn that they would have split and likely one would have ended up dead by the hand of the other, and the Genetic Dynasty would have been completely broken. Even If Day and Dusk didn't try to kill each other and went separate ways, it likely would have divided the empire in half and broken the dynasty anyway. Killing Dawn was the lesser evil and the only way (as far as she knew at this point) to maintain the dynasty. He was ultimately killed because the fact that he was different was going to cause a schism. I think if Day and Dusk were both cool with him being slightly different she would not have harmed him. She did what her programming compelled her to do, but as we saw it was something she didn't want to do. Sadly, I'm not finding the other storylines interesting in the slightest.
Didn’t the Infiltrator Dawn said he was a perfect copy of the original? Maybe they can use his corpse as a source if it is true. The saboteurs might just have saved the Cleonic Dynasty in an ironic twist.
It might just be that the latest saboteurs only believed he was a perfect copy because they are different saboteurs from the ones that tempered with the cloning program right at the onset when Cleon the First died and the first clone had been decanted. Maybe the latter was Demerzel herself.
The door was open for Azura to point at Day after he says he has eliminated anyone who has memory of her to say, "It has all been in vain, Empire, there will always be ones who remember me....you and Dusk will remember. I will be a cautionary tale told for all time to Cleons henceforth and therefore granted my own immortality. Your reign must end for me to be forgotten."
I absolutely ENJOYED THIS RIDE!!! I rarely try new scifi shows until they're in at least their 3rd season (been burned too many times, investing in a show just to see it immediately canceled) Being new to Apple+ I felt it was probably a safe bet to give it a try, gladvi did! I'm now hunting for the books as I wait for season 2! I'm also enjoying your channel and the discussion your hosting on these shows! Thank you!!!
Personally, I quite enjoy the last we see of Demerzel this season. Her expression at the end was vague enough for me to ponder if it was pain or anger. Can’t wait to find out in the next season. Overall, I find season 1 enjoyable. A good start. If there’s a question, I guess it’d be what exactly did Terminus Harry mean when he said “This isn’t the Foundation’s 1st crisis…” See y’all next season.
@@rmcode Thank you, friend. I do get that. What got me pondering was that exact phrasing: "Not the 1st crisis." To this point, we've been led to believe that this was the foundation's 1st crisis. By stating it's not, the show suggests possible omission(s) or, even tastier, time travel. You catch my meaning? In any case, I look forward to seeing what the writers have in store for us next year. Ciao
I feel like this crisis was not resolved in the same way as the book. The book had both parties still at war, and the standoff is what saves Terminus. I guess that the critical technology that Terminus possesses has been changed from Nuclear plants to Starship building.
@@thomaswayne1852 Time-travel? God, I hope not! But what it might mean (that this wasn't the Foundation's 1st crisis) could be that the Foundation didn't really start with Terminus. Seldon has been working on his project since he was a young man - there's probably been other Plans, Projects and Crises. I think Goyer has said that some of the future seasons may delve into the past as well. We certainly need to know more about Demerzel's past. If the show does what the books did, then maybe it will work towards a confluence of two different Plans - the long-term Robot Plan and the more recent Seldon Plan. This show didn't give any indication that Demerzel had a past with Seldon, but clearly, if there is also a Robot Plan (and there must be, since she is that old, and since she is probably, IMO, behind the Starbridge bombing), she must have been very aware of what he was doing, and has probably helped him along - maybe even covertly given him the technological means to carry out his Plan (the vault seems way more advanced than what the current, declining Empire is capable of).
@@clarkkent7973 I never read the books. So, forgive me, Superman? I'm coming at this as a sci-fi fan, nothing more. I think I like what they have set up ;)
The early episodes were slow in getting to know or care about the characters. But the latter episodes have fixed that issue. Now I’m invested in Harding and the Genetic Dynasty. I was horrified by the sentence Day gave to the girl but then challenged to see he truly cared about Dawn. Conflicting on wanting to hate or at the very least understand Days character. But all in all it was a epic undertaking.
If we get to finish that plot before they time jump, then I think that we’ll find out that he didn’t have those people executed. The psychology impact of that false belief would be just as effective as if Day actually had that done, but without the mess that you’d have to cover up so that those that they didn’t account for decide ghat they either want answers or payback assuming the equivalent of the 7 degrees of separation on a planet of one trillion. It would be a Dusk level cruelty and miscalculation.
...and his kindness to the pilgrim followed by sending Demerzel to assissinate Halima. Kindness followed by breathtaking cruelty and spitefulness. The cruelty to Azura and everyone who knew her goes beyond any compassion he's ever shown.
I have been having some fun conversations with friends playing with some ideas for overall plot lines, be they part of season two or further into the series. Very, very far fetched, andzaney, but still.... I have also been enjoying the many conversations that this e-group has shared as well , and I thank everyone for this time -- I look forward to more as we get further into the series. While I do have a life outside of this series, I freely admit to being drawn in more and more but I do have a set of brakes - I just haven't haven't applied them - yet. ) I have been slowly rewatching the first season, seeing that I missed some details, and gaining new insights as a result -- so much detail seems to fly by that a second look was warrented for me - both visual as well as hints as to what might come. I even spent some time with friends stopping at certain frames to take in scenes that I felt had an element of artisitc composition. There were many frames that I truly admired, but the one that stood out the most was Lee Pace when he was sitting in the water in the cave after having walked the spiral, waiting for .... well... waiting for something to reveal itself. I was actually quite astonished. It looked like an artistically thought out frame, one that could be hung on a wll if you were into that. Many in this conversation thread have spoken of Lee Pace as a great actor, and expressed the hope that he would continue to be part of the series in some way. To all those I can safely say -- I get it now!! So a few friends who watch the series with me have come up with some ideas as to how he might continue to be in the series (assuming that he wants to) , even after the Cleons are gone. We came up with this: we all know that the robot has to change out both the brain and body over time - the brain fills up and has to ber upgraded, and the bodies simply wear out, or they have been exchanged as a matter of not being recognized. It does, however, return to its original body as its "true" identity at times. Could Lee Pace, then, be one of the iterations of the robot? Perhaps even the "true" iteration. We know that the robot created the Empire and quite possibly the Cleons - at least in appearance ( in the robots own image), so the argument went to whether or not the robot had used its ture form to create the first Cleon. This has been the most fun thinking experiment that we have come up with, and am wondering if there are any other thougts as to other ideas that would keep him in the series. As for Season two, we are playing around with that as well -- if anything fun comes up, I'll report back (so far, same old same old -- I need to get more creative!). Happy holiday to all!
i didn't know asimov's books, i missclicked on foundation on my stream site and i got hooked right away. i really like the idea of the genetic dynasty and Demerzel is definitely my favorite character. overall i find the 1st season really good. i'd really like to know, why she walked the spiral 11k years ago(if that's in the books) and how she ended up at the service of cleon the 1st.
It was a good effort. I found it interesting how they emphasized the empire so heavily, whereas in the books it's mostly in the background. I understand the need for action and showing the crisis, rather than talking about it, but one thing I wish they had done differently was Harry and the Vault; I wished they had followed the books a bit more. Still, though I am looking forward to season 2 and beyond. I'm very curious to see how they do the Mule as well as the 2nd Foundation.
Seldon comes off as somewhat of a villain in the second act, an unreliable trickster with his own agenda with the people of the foundation being no more than puppets not unlike the people of the empire are to the Cleons. Demrizel totally undermined Day which makes me thinks she is behind collapse of the Cleonic dynasty which is causing her dissonance but she’s doing it anyway Also that far in the future I’m surprised a neck snap can’t be fixed if treated immediately but sci-fi limitations are story tools. The nanites in there bodies seem to only work for superficial healing
I suppose there is something of the trickster in his characterization but the coming of a new Dark Age is inevitable. He was manipulating events to shorten that time in a dark age as much as possible. And like it or not people cling to myths. Using myth-making is a viable tool for manipulating societies toward the end goal.
Villain in the second act??? In act 1 it's implicit but clear to me he's the one behind the terrorist attack on the space elevator just to get his plans moving forward and start the Dark Age on his own terms. They made him a complete villain allright, pure zealot type with a savior complex. There's plenty of religious fanaticism undertones going on the show.
Man that was some good sci fi !! I used to wish for this type of show for the foundation books. The whole time I was watching the finale, I couldn’t wait to get to your breakdowns!!! Lol Best episode of the series yet:)
Hari Seldon: Good job recovering the invictus even if you had no idea that was the plan, now you have technology to defend yourselves! Also, Hari Seldon: *has the technology to create a vault that copies his mind and can make everybody faint and is invulnerable to combat ship's weapons and can travel through space and keeps it all a secret for himself and doesn't give it to the Foundation to defend themselves*
The Cleon parts of the series are definitely the best, all three actors are phenomenal in their roles! Dawn was the victim of the entire rebel plot, Day was the only one who cared about him. I think Dawn's story may reverberate through future Cleons and a future Cleon will be instrumental in ending the empire so their civilization can live.
Interesting thing about the whole azura this is that empire doesn't really have to kill everyone. What matters is that she knows he could do it and so believing he has she'll go into sensory deprivation knowing they are dead because of her. She'll be insane inside 6 months. He has taken her legacy away from her with us not knowing whether he actually killed anyone.
If you can make it through the time jumps in the first couple episodes, this is well worth watching. They are just at first, confusing, but ultimately get lined up in a way that makes sense.
I'm fairly certain that the Shadow told Brother Dawn that he and Brother Dusk had also be genetically altered. And that all of the clones for hundreds of years had been tainted making it impossible for them to create a pure clone. But also more importantly, that the genetic dynasty has been operating with the false belief that they were the same as the OG. So the question is planted how has and will these differences impact the Empire and how would/will the citizens react if they learned the truth. As an aside: Does these genetic changes/evolutions make Empire better able to adapt and survive, or are they the reason Empire falls?
@@captainyossarian388 The Brother would have to have killed hundreds to keep their secret. I can see things going normally, but the Brothers becoming more and more paranoid. Things are going to get very messy. The funny thing is that even without the clone abnormalities the Brothers have never really been the same person. The personalities evolve or devolve but they have lied to themselves. So the internal lie is gone. So it's only the public being lied to how long can that continue and who breaks first?
@@karl2405 You are correct. But I'm going to assume that he has been diluted also. Because if not it would not matter that the original has been tainted because all Empire would need to do was make Dusk the new source. Eliminate the diluted Day and Empire would be good as new. So I choose to think Dusk is also diluted because that makes for a far more interesting story. We'll have to wait till next year to find out. I don't know why, but out of all of the Brothers I disliked Dusk the most out of the most recent generation. Though Day is cunningly evil.
@@malestorm234 Yeah probably drama-wise it makes most sense for them all to be altered. It also gives all of the brothers, and Demerezel, moral dilemmas. I didn't hate any of the brothers, they were all acting as best they could from what they knew. But yeah I liked Day, Dawn, Dusk in that order. Lee Page is an amazing actor!
The mathematical probability that Gaal is going through space in a space escape capsule and the one who found Salvor in Synnax is... Let say... ASTRONOMICAL !!
@@jimmywrangles Coolest detail about it - he takes her to this garden, she sitting with him, birds singing, everything like in paradise. But, no place for doubt that everyone she ever met just died. What a contrast. Her future is also awesome detail. I bet she's gonna live 300 years. Shrouded and fed intravenously in sensory deprived eternity lol You gotta be Cleon to think of all that.
Demerzel is the best character! I am OBSESSED with her-I wish they would have given us a quick flashback to one of her previous lives, come on already, show me more about her! Did she CREATE that religion? How exactly has she been altered? Is she suffering from robotic PTSD??! What effects will it have on her mind to be forced to do things she is morally disgusted by, for hundreds of years? What CAN she do? Has she been working against Empire, in extremely subtle ways? Can she manage THAT somehow? Why can’t she reprogram herself? She can switch body parts-and possibly impersonate others-so why can’t she edit her own code? How can such a complex mind be restrained this way? Looking forward to your video on her!!
After watching all season one ten episodes. Amazing!! The scoop of interplay of the characters actions and the expanse of time over which the series covers is mindboggling. It's impressive. Though I fall in love with a character and their story and want them to stay longer that time and place, but the character fast forwards hundreds of years forward dropping them into a completely new story. The writers and directors do it brilliantly, and the actors are a joy so go with it. The two actresses they end season two with are a gift and I look forward to seeing where they go in this series, and future performances. Hell, that goers for all of the actors in this series. I can't wait to see more of this masterful series and this cast and crew. (I just hope it's not too intellectual to be the hit. it deserves to be.
they should just make a spinoff of a whole season on just the Cleons alone cause I was tuned in a lot during the Empire stuff. It gave me Game of Throne vibes... in space lol. Maybe a spinoff of how the first Cleon was and then onto the first generation of clones. A lot of room for ideas.
I loved the show on many levels. It also included the most believable version of a starship that I've ever seen; one that creates its own black hole to bridge space-time. Very clever.
I think it was largely a successful first season. In the vein of authentic sci-fi (particularly Asimov’s books) it asks interesting questions about the future, morality, technological implications and more. I agree the genetic dynasty was an interesting addition as is their robotic governess. The special effects were strong as was most of the acting. Where the show falls down for me a bit is it sometimes struggles to build tension, which makes the action sequences feel a bit flat. The actress portraying Salva - I’m not sure if its the casting or her performance but that character falls a bit flat for me, not horrible but not great. I enjoyed just about everyone else. It’s worth noting the books are more intellectual than emotional and I give the writers a lot of credit for bridging that gap, though I have to say part of the tension gap is also that most of the twists are predictable. That said, all and all it is a success, I’ll be back for S2.
I have a question. Why was the plant shown to grow and expand. Then they immediately cut back to the exact same time!?! Then after Salvor left, they had another growth/development montage.
The Robots usually agonized about any death and it caused them great distress. here they kill billions without any difficulty. It was bad. 1 episode of asimovs foundation. 3 of gender swapping and diversity casting. 2 of screwing. 3 of religious mumbo jumbo of the clones, and the remainder of generic action.
i was totally captivated by the last half of the finale, from the Salvor and her mom scene on. The fight scenes were lackluster all season but the space action scenes were great. I like more linear storytelling like the seocnd half. The first few episodes, jumping from one planet to another at different time zones were more confusing than stylistic. i understand that if you watch it as a wholeyou look at it differently. The fact is, all the episodes weren't available to binge at once. Showrunners should take that into consideration as well. Will i rewatch the whole first season ? Yes.
I wasn't sure at first, but for me it got better with each episode, and that bodes well for season 2. Terminus was the weak part for me, but I really think that was hindered by Covid. But I also felt that Salvor was not portrayed very well. I didn't find any of her connections believable. Whether it was scenes with her mother, father, bf, huntress, etc... I just always felt like the actress was just waiting for the other person to finish their lines so she could say hers. Maybe that was a directorial choice to convey that she is different, but even her last scene with her bf, I didn't get any sense that she was sad about leaving him (kind of the opposite actually). But again, maybe that was intentional.
I was also into the Cleon arc more. Read the book a long time ago and have been waiting for a TV adaptation for decades :D Did not have any big expectations, the series is decent enough.
About Demerzel being able to break the 1st law of robotics "A robot may not injure a HUMAN BEING or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm", if you read about the Robot "Daneel Olivaw" ... they were the 1st robot to be "indistinguishable from humans" in the foundation books. Daneel is almost 20,000 years old and has survived so long by changing their identity (most recently to Eto Demerzel). So Daneel is Demerzel. Daneel was able to develop a fourth law of Robotics "Zeroth Law" which states "A robot may not harm HUMANITY, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm". This is a unique law that only Daneel has been able to achieve by hardwiring their brain differently (theres a backstory here about how this came to be). But essentially it means Demerzel has been able to kill humans in accordance with what they believe to be the best thing for humanity. Then theres the fact that in the series, Demerzel states she has been reprogrammed to by the dynasty to protect the lineage. But I thought the above was pretty interesting from the books and hope they hint towards this in future series!
Spoiler Alert!!! The books -- originals, prequels, sequels, all lead in the end to Daneel's use of his unique powers (to reprogram himself, and the development of the zeroth law) as having guided Humanity to keep it from harm. The denouement comes when he has to choose another way for Humanity after the failure of the Empire, but there are some twists as to how he comes to the choice which is based on a mistake some 20,000 years before. I can't imagine how the Apple series can change that - then again, they changed so much already, so who knows??
I really disliked the part about the Foundation being about curating "the people" over "psychohistory". At this point I dont know why they slapped "the Foundation" tittle on the production. It seems like it is a "pastiche" of a number of "new school" scifi ideas. Im unsure why people keep doing "random story" + "Optioned Book Name" as a thing. Nothing in the story has me wanting more.
I don't know either. They have no interest in the themes of the books. They're actually acting out what Asimov was saying was bad. Math now is witchcraft that can predict where a mystery ship will appear and who will capture it. It's absurd. Meanwhile we get the boring Hardin emo. The only part of this show working is the genetic dynasty storyline and that isn't from the books at all.
@@chrislutz416 I mean, that idea is not absurd at all. It's scientific determinism - if you could know the properties of every particle in the universe you could predict every event. That seems to pretty much be the basis on which psychohistory is based on, from a more up-to-date perspective. In fact almost all scientific and mathematical models are deterministic.
When you watching or reading epic creations like this one, you may think only about one thing - how to live long enough, to see what will come out of this, and how it will end up. "live long and prosper."
I loved the season! I hadn’t heard of Foundation prior to Apple making the series, which probably is a good thing because I went in without expectations. The cinematography was beautiful. The story is great and I really liked the special effects. I can’t wait for season two!
The final denouement of Azura was brutal. I've seen tougher scenes, but I can't remember where. Amy Tyger's performance was understated, to say the least, but it's hard to imagine how the impact of such a horrifying portent would be expressed.
Creating a mega flare...that would take light/infos hundreds of years to reach Trentor unless they have another way of receiving messages faster than light...remember the com buoy was broken. So, Trentor wouldn't know about the mega flare...and they would still wonder why there was no response from one of their ships.
They have Galaxy-wide hyperspace communication so it probably wouldn`t take that long, just enough time for the flare`s light to reach the nearest still functioning com buoy. Probably a few years tops. This sort of thing seems to be cropping up in a lot of SF shows these days though which shows that a lot of writers need to learn a bit more physics.
Love your positive viewpoints! Im trying to reconcile my knowledge of the books with the show, and frankly have arrived at the decision to dissociate them both, as it appears they are only going to follow the books in the broadest of strokes. That said I’m still interested and excited for season 2 and the Hober Mallow story, the character does at least travel regularly beyond Terminus, so it should give the writers more material to work with such as the Korell storyline.
I have taken this exact same tack -- as have others methinks. It would seem they bought the rights to use the names of the characters and a vague underpinning of the story, but with little in the way of a deeper understanding of the ideas being presented in the books. Hence, more violence, less ideas. Maybe the requirement of having to read the 'Fall of the Roman Empire as a prerequisite to making a film would have been in order.......
Following from my thought that Day had Demercel kill the priestess as revenge on the felt betrayal when she outet herself as follower, I also think this was not a fail safe, but a reverse revenge compatible with the programming.
I really hope they have one hell of an explanation for all these hunches and visions, for a show where one of the central themes is the inevitability and predictive power of math they seem to be toying with the supernatual way too much.
@@chrislutz416 Well there is a theory that if we were somehow able to map the position of every particle in the universe that we would be able to perfectly recreate the past or predict the future, everything is about action & reaction so if you know the action of one particle you can know what the reaction of another one is gonna be and so on and so forth. Of course as far as we know we'll never be able to ever create a supercomputer powerful enough to perform such a task
@@dreamxcviii3249 It's not a theory, it's true. IF we could do that - it's the entire premise of what "psychohistory" is based on. The idea that we can suspend our disbelief for "psychohistory", millennia old robots that still function perfectly, and even FTL travel (especially with no time dilation effects) but anything else is wizardry is absurd lol.
I want them to take this season and cut it per each storyline. Then stitch them together in 3 different long episodes per each story. Jumping between 3 different stories and timelines multiple times per episode made it way harder to follow then it was necessary imo.
I say this with most tv series and sometimes even movies. It’s a narrative device to switch between stories. But i’d be able to put a lot more together if it was just a clip montage of the different story lines stitched together
My questions for the finally : Who… no, What is the Shadow Master? He doesn’t seem to age at all and Hari also mentioned he was ordered by Cleon II to kill the Huntress. This means he has been a servant to the Cleonic dynasty for at least 300-400 years, but how? Is he is a robot? Is he a clone? Or is it involved the cryo-pod? What is the galactic council? When Day decided to give Dawn a second chance, Dusk said “if the galactic council discovers our dynastic thread is broken, we are through.” So… there is a galactic council, and it seems this council is powerful enough to somewhat threaten Dusk and Day (Day said “the council needs never know.”). So… what is this council? Is it like the Landsraad from Dune or something similar?
The performances of the genetic dynasty and Demerzel really stole the show on that side of the story. Some twists I didn’t see coming at all, and not in a bad way. Some stuff that bugs the book reader in me, but a pretty solid ending all things considered. I’ve been working on a Demerzel video so that’s coming soon, and will be putting out a season 2 questions one after I think about it for a few days. Let me know what questions you have for that.
I am looking forwards to your promised video on the differences between TV show and the books for Episode 9 and 10.. I think it will be a herculean effort in your part... :)
Love your reviews, could not agree more, happy that you are sticking by the show- so will I!
Ok, got a few questions..
Who are they using as a science advisor in the show? I mean, they "bought" time by faking a solar flare in the Terminus system.. How does that buy them time. Trantor is 50k light years away.. so, they wont see the flare for 50k years.. Even Anacreon (the closest planet to Terminus) is 27 light years away.. How is that buying them time? The fake Solar Flare will have reached zero planets in the next 18 months. Why could the Empire not come investigate what happened to their missing ship a lot sooner than that? If there was a massive flare in the closest star to us, we could not see it for 2 years....
Another question.. How did Salvor know where to land in Synnex. Which submerged building was the right one to go to sleep right next to?
Why did Demerzel freaked out? Was it cause she killed Dawn? Cause nobody told her to do it. She acted on her own, which, to me, it indicates she did not have to.. Is it cause her programming forced her to kill an impure clone? If that's the case, I guess Brother Day is also dead once she knows he is also impure?
Why did the Anacreon and Thespis forces LISTENED to Hari? they had no history with him. What did Anacreon and Thespis gain from joining up with Terminus? most of the Terminus tech people died taking the Invictus.. The Captain is a Thespisian.. They will build a new ship in 18 months.. But Terminus has no natural resources, and in Episode 9 we saw them lose their power source (when Salvor's father blew the thermal power plant and the Anacreon ships).
Love your reviews. Brother day actor is the established star of the series, the rest of the actors being less known kind of hinted at who would get more or less screen time.
I have problems with the Cleon situation. Dusk should have poetically been killed due to his inhumaniy. Dawn and Day both showed an extention beyond the inhuman "purity" programming, and that the meaning behind it turned out to be itrrelevant. Dawn was the only one of the three that was shown not to be a monster. Writing like that doesn't win my confidence, and reveals short sightedness for future story lines. Dusk should have died horribly, while Day almost appeared to be trying to redeem his previous crimes against humanity by standing up for Dawn. Demerzel also turned out to be a huge disappointment. If she "truly" cared about others, she would have saved the young one due to his attempts to survive with logic and reasoning, as well as never having harmed anyone. The show lacked a lot of heart with the dominance of ruthlessness and villainny throughtout. And Salvor along with Gaal proved weak with a lack of ability to stand up to terrible menaces along the way. Only in episode 9 did Salvor take out her nemesis, which she should have done so long before. Hari Seldon hasn't shown any reason to believe in what he has "planned". His epic return in this episode fizzled without any indication if he will be back with a meaningful vision and pathway to take the story to a better place. I need to be able to care about the characters as well as what is going to happen next. This episode shows that that premise I just described is irrelevant, and their is no meaningful continuity to Asimov's original story or anyone worth following at this point. Disposable plot lines and characters. Hari Seldon doesn't appear to give two shits to what is going to happen to anyone either. It can end here.
The scene with Azura had me glued to the screen.
Lee Pace’s acting in the finale was so strong. The way he was selling his conflicted emotions was so so good.
Coldest scene from a tv show/movie I have seen in years. This man is amazing!
Went full kiser sosay
@@jacobdenness8659 Lee Pace should be in more shows in the U.S. Pushing Daises was a FANTASTIC show, with Lee Pace, Anna Friel and Kristin Chenoweth were great in that show. More Lee Pace please. And yes, that scene was incredible. Amy Tyger did a great job in the show. More Gaal is something to look forward to (along with more Alfred Enoch, if possible). This really was a well cast show.
I'm still holding on to my idea that we haven't seen the last of Azura.....she is not out and out dead, and can be resuced in some way down the road.......but since I'm usually worng about these things, I'll go with the group's consensus - whatever it may be!
@@michaellerner528 Nah bro. Make your own theories. Its so much more satisfying when youre right.
Lee Pace - He is what I think of when I think of this show. He made the whole Trantor storyline so hooking!
He really did didn't he. Obviously we can't see this day again but I hope we see other days in the future
Yes, he is as good as Antony Starr on The Boys.
Yes, his screen presence and character are some of the richest and most complex I've seen in quite a while.
Scene stealer! Def the source of the best acting in the series so far.
I actually preferred the Brother Dusk performances
I agree. The neck-snap was an absolutely shocking turn of events.
That was very well done indeed. And how Brother Dawn dealt with "that woman" was brilliant too. Empire story shines in this episode.
Demerzel broke the first law of robotics. So this should not have happened.
It's a nice bonus that she knows it hurts Day considering the Halima situation.
@@chca5862 Actually, no. The clones are not human... They are clones..
She can kill clones all day long and it will not contradict the laws of robotics. :)
@@mvilla9754 Disagree. They are human, especially the "Brother Dawn" she killed because he was not good enough clone.
I feel bad for brother dawn the most.
1) He trusted azura with his fears and feeling and he got betrayed.
3) He trusted demrezel and confided his fears in her. And she killed him.
It was karma for making her kill Halima.
@@jcgrx2251 that was brother day, brother dawn didn't kill anybody
@@jcgrx2251 but dawn was innocent and she raised dawn too. That was cold of her man.
I wonder when they wake up the "new" dawn from the water tank. What would be his reaction? The last thing he would remembered is hugging demrezel and then getting killed by her. But I guess since gaal woke up its been 136 years and we would see new set of cleons.
@@susen98 thats the point. He probably won't wake up, because he isnt considered the real clone. Probably try to purify the DNA and have a new baby, breaking the cycle. Remember the first Cleon only had a child left after he died.
Demerzel shocked me twice in this episode - fascinating character
Laura Birn does a terrific job in the role
Demerzel got payback for having to kill zephyr
@@cocoyeabroom2505 Even worse, I think she might have killed both the other Cleons if they are 'Adulterated', hence that crazy end scene of her ripping her face and screaming
Yeah, loved that she waited until Day ruled, and then she took her revenge, once dusk and day were fighting. I suspect she's gone from the show now. With no compulsion to obey a corrupted dynasty.
@@cocoyeabroom2505 yeap it was sad too. Brother dawn was the most empathic one out of all cleons. He trusted demrezel with his fears and he got betrayed the most brutal way
It’s funny because throughout the season I was way more invested in the Cleons (who are the “villains” of the story) than the Foundation-ites on Trantor with their skirmish with the Anachreons and their lying AI messiah. Everyone in the Empire seems to be trapped - the Cleons have to follow their birthright or get swapped out for a clone who will and Demerzel has to keep the trains on the tracks - even if it means killing the boy she raised and loves. They are all kind of prisoners of the original Cleon - even though he died 400 years ago. Tragic and fascinating at the same time.
And now, only Lee Pace can save humanity from Laura Birn
Book stuff: Just as a side, the Cleon we meet in the books is definitely not a villain, he's actually quite a clever and benevolent ruler and becomes very close with Hari Seldon himself, who ends up serving in Dermezel's role as first councilor after that character leaves Trantor for reasons I won't spoil. Asimov generally describes how rulers tend to follow a pattern of benevolence-decadence-malevolence-benevolence...the idea being that a ruler sets up an era of prosperity, his heir is usually lazy and uncaring allowing things to start falling apart and then either an heir or outside influence brutally cracks down to regain order. A lot of that is pulled directly from the history of the Roman empire. Suffice to say, Cleon is a good guy in the books but his later successors are not.
@@PanamaLane I appreciate this semi-spoiler, I'm working my way to see if the Audiobook version exists, but You tie things nicely. The semi-spoiler being the idocracy of human conquering vis-a-vis remaining in power 'ruling' dynamics, as you put it: "Asimov generally describes how rulers tend to follow a pattern of benevolence-decadence-malevolence-benevolence...the idea being that a ruler sets up an era of prosperity, his heir is usually lazy and uncaring allowing things to start falling apart and then either an heir or outside influence brutally cracks down to regain order."
That is sort of the story of Psychohistory.
But Asimov had a few twists on that line of thinking, and I don't know where this show seems to be going instead, as it deviates quite a bit.
@@PanamaLane Clogs to clogs... an old British saying about 4 generations
theyre making it so hard to dislike brother day even after all the horrible things hes done. dusk set them on a path of ruin, day was able to see it in time and tried to cultivate the seed of change in dawn only for things to end horribly for all 3.
it's quite a tragedy...
Brother Day did nothing wrong
The way brother day carried brother dawn dead body. Broke my heart
The addition of the genetic dynasty was a stroke of genius... The problem with turning this story in to a tv series was always going to be the spanning of thousands of years... Meant they cannot build the connection with strong characters which is necessary for any good story.... However they solved that by creating a mix of consistent characters that will always be around... There is the robot who is immortal.. and there is now Harry who is now a digital conciousness projection - also immortal... And of course the genetic cycle Cleon... Who are new people but the same character on going...
Brilliantly solving the consistent character building we needed.
Of course with Gaal they have thrown her and salvor in to cryosleep for hundreds of years to allow them both to pop in and out of certain points of the ever expanding years this story goes for.
100%!
Well said...
Agreed!
The genetic dynasty was a highlight, but the time jumps and cryopods hurt the character depth and continuity of the story a lot. They're literally just freezing characters when they're unnecessary, thawing them out to act their part and move the plot in the way the writers want, then putting them back in the freezer until required again. It makes them very one dimensional; we never get to see them act independently of the plot points, never know where their motivations come from, and never really connect with them as a result. Their psychic "I just know what will happen" instincts make it even worse, because not even they understand what they're doing most of the time.
Agreed. Successful tv shows need its audience to be invested in its main characters. That would be hard to do if the show followed the books too close because no one was around for any amount of time, save Harry, and he was nothing more than a series of recordings.
Gaal and Salvor were pretty much throwaways in the books so 5he writers could expand on their stories without too much trouble, and turning Harry into an AI was I think a no-brainer. Cleon was a brilliant change. They gave us a set of characters you could be invested in, figured out a way to logically keep them in the show, and expanded 5he story by showing events from Empire’s standpoint. Who couldn’t feel for Day, who just wanted to be free of the chains of Destiny, or even Dusk who as brutal as he could be was obviously dealing with those same feelings?
Like any show there are bits and pieces you can pick apart, but unless inconsistencies or errors are just blazingly bad, most of it is people being anal and/or trying to impress with their self perceived intelligence.
So far a solid show.
The genetic dynasty wasn’t part of the books? 🤯🤯🤯 Major respect to the writers! That is a stellar feature of the tv story!
basically everything in this tv show is made up.
@@Feroxing12 David ( show runner ) made an excellent point in the last podcast, Asimov didn’t write the series with a overall plan, he just made more Foundation stories because they sold better than the others, ie riffing. I reread the books when I heard Apple where making the show. It has holes… I’m reassured that none of the characters where filmed chatting on their iPhone 😏
Asimov did not have a powerful Emperor except for the next to last one. It made more sense that one individual could not make a difference in this kind of Empire. Only a structure could could it together for 10,000 years. That structure’s decay was the basis of Asimov’s story. A strong individual could work for a generation, but must fail, thereby validating Asimov’s premise.
TV drama lives on the belief that individuals make a difference in every situation. We must have drama!
@@OneEyedMonkey9000 I could not disagree more. Perhaps it was not all planned out in the books, but it all fit together perfectly and much better than the show is pulling off here. I do agree however that the genetic dynasty was an interesting and not unwelcome addition, but they are butchering my favorite character in Dermezel. What about the laws of robotics? What about the ability to manipulate minds? A robot should be unable to kill, period. They are also completely whiffing on the point of psychohistory and it's origins. I'm half expecting them to turn Seldon into a mass murdering terrorist behind the bombing, which is plainly disgusting. And the shoot-shoot-bang-bang action crap belongs in Star Wars, not in a deeply philosophical work that emphasizes intelligence triumphing over strength at all points.
@@PanamaLane Agree, the "shoot em up" crap always notches things down for me. I suppose they think that's what 14 year old boys need to like the thing.
I appreciated that Easter egg of our solar system displayed on demerzel’s desk! I wonder if they will elaborate further on the ‘mystery’ of Earth in later seasons.. if the later books are anything to go by.. Or it could just imply she is the only being that remembers Earth/the Sol System.
If she's truly old enough, she likely remembers the actual origin of humanity.
Pretty sure they plan to adapt Foundation and Earth. No guarantee they'll get there though.
@@Wico90YT And the good old days on earth
I wonder if synnax is future earth
I think it's an Easter egg indicating that she is the only being in the galaxy that actually remembers Earth. She may even be one of the last robots built on Earth before (spoiler). We know she is at least 4,000 years old and is quite possibly much much older.
Wow, I didn't realize the genetic dynasty was an addition to the show (haven't read the books). I really like the show, but the genetic dynasty is by far the most fascinating and engaging story arc to me!
Totally agree! That story arc was by far the best in the series
I fell so bad for bother day. He was really trying his best to change the empire. I wonder how brother dawn would have reacted had he known brother day though of him as his son too.
Brother day is a savage! He gonna be aight! Don’t worry about that! Azura now… say a prayer for that girl! I mean does God even remember who she is at this point? Damn Day!
That whole bit was real tragedy. On the edge of probably changing things for the better and then it was gone. True tragedy there.
Dr-ddh540 the person who has my sympathy here is dawn and all the people who died because she diced be a witch
@@jacobdenness8659 did Day have to go all Machiavellian on her though! I mean 😐
Dr-ddh540 fair but she's still not the one I'm sympathetic for
This and last episodes are one OH MY GOD moment after another. Epic series.
I think Demerzel realized that keeping Dawn alive would cause too much strife with the Cleons and bring about the fall even faster. She made a hard decision hence her scream of frustration at the end. Maybe revenge against Day played a part but I think it was more about keeping immediate stability.
Great point
I know it he is minor character but Hugo's despair as Salvor leaves once again broke my heart.
I was also sad about Brother Day being killed by Dermezel.
All the more for the fact that we're pretty certain they never saw each other again, since we take a 138 year time jump to reconnect with Salvor.
@@captainyossarian388 I had totally forgotten about it...they never saw each other again. Man, poor Hugo!
well shot scene too!
I really liked his character too.
Love what you said about Brother Day. It’s ironic- even he, with all the power, is powerless to effect any change.
Pace's brief break in his voice when he exclaimed "No!" highlighted XIII's shock, grief and despair over XIV's death for me, thanks to the culminating emotions around XIV's fate.
Absolutely loved the finale. Not read the books but I love the set up going into season 2. That Demerzel scene near the end was so good
Dermezel for me has been the central figure and most captivating story line throughout the series. A seemingly sentient AI, she has been around for several millennia watching humanity rise and fall and rise again. At the beginning of this series we find her 400 years into an engineered program designed to maintain and promote a "peace" and well being for the human race that is diverse and spread out over the vastness of a galaxy. She is aware of the dynasty's shortfalls and its successes. Was the dynasty her brain child or was she just the designer and architect of the cloning program? One thing we don't know is what Dermezel thought of Hari Seldon and the Foundation. It seems to me She is the "living" embodiment of the prime radiant. Dermezel has personally experienced a very large sample of humanity's existence and history and she never forgets anyone or anything. I would guess her computational powers would far exceed those of a Gaal Dornick or Hari Seldon making her a better predictive modeler. Dermezel"s shedding/shredding of her human facade, I believe, is her overwhelming frustration for the failure of the dynasty and her deep seeded love for humanity.
You are spot on!!
And let's not forget the curious depiction of Earth and the rest of our solar system on her repair kit at a time when the Empire had long forgotten where humanity came from. To me it looked like she couldn't suppress her conflicted emotions after killing Dawn and the excretion of tears from her one eye. So instead of painstakingly fixing it with one of her tools, she's so overcome with her motherly feelings and killing a "son" to protect the "family", that in her rage she just rips off her human appearance altogether. Chilling to see her with her full robotic head like that.
bravo
Demerzel ripping her own "human" face off could be representative of her conflicting programming. She stated clearly that she is loyal to the Cleonic Dynasty above all else, but what if she also is subject to Asimov's traditional Robotic Laws? What if the coding that makes her loyal to the Genetic Dynasty simply precedes, but does not overwrite her traditional Robotic Laws that make her loyal to humans/humankind? What if she sees that the Genetic Dynasty will be the doom of humankind, but she also has programming that makes her loyal to that same Dynasty? She would be "torn" (yes, pun intended) internally/emotionally as she tries to reconcile the two conflicting "rules/laws".
I agree wholeheartedly though, Demerzel was the most interesting part of the show for me, by far. Not to downplay the rest of the show, which I actually greatly enjoyed.
@@GattisonPrime I think your post best approximates how I read that scene as well. It was an act of the most extreme anguished frustration at her situation.
It turns out the Cleonic dynasty storyline was the better part of the series. Hopefully it continues.
They have a season two coming they announced it after the 4th or 5th episode
I have heard the same thing, but I liked the Terminus story too. Also, I heard (If it get's the ratings) it's planned for 8 seasons.
The Empire story is fascinating. I hope it will be again Major story in the next season. I want more Kleons!
Thanks Pete for all the effort you put into releasing these videos - they have been my go to - especially love reading comments and the way you speak and articulate come from a skillful place.
First rule of character development: make the audience sympathize. Cleons, despite being clones and god-like emperors, are incredibly relatable in that they try to run from pain and fail. Even in their god-like power, they are not immune to disaster and mortal agony, making us feel something for them. You can hate them, you can despise them, but you cannot unfeel their pain.
I also like how they've managed to create subtle nuances in each of the Cleons. The one that started as Day and was Dusk by season's end was more brutal. The one that started as Dawn and was Day by season's end was more compassionate and tried to understand people. This is why he was willing to cheat the system in order to protect his younger self.
That conversation between Brother Day and Azura hooked me to my core. That was a fantastic script and acting. Simple my evil and very smart. Loved it. Probably my favorite part.
Nobody else thinks Demerzel killing Dawn was a little bit of revenge for having to kill Zephyr Halima?
Yup.
Good point she wasnt the same since then
Actually, I think they’re attempting to bring her inline with the books, in a sense, in that she might have killed him to keep the dynasty from changing, meaning if it can adapt and change, it won’t break, thus ensuring it breaks. I think she is responsible for altering the source dna.
Not really. She's coded to protect the imperial dynasty above all else. Unless we get a twist in later seasons
@@karl2405 I also think smtn like that. She protected the dynasty.
But I figure she wouldn't be killing him because he's an imperfect copy had two "perfect" ones agreed on it. But now, if this slightly changed, replaceable copy, is to bring chaos and division between two more powerful Cleons, than better just snap the boy's neck and be done with it.
Demersal, having choice, believes in change, chooses evolution over stagnation, but if she's imposed this impossible choice, she has to side with the original Cleon, not with Dusk, or Day, but with Cleon I.
It's not like she liked watching hanged people swinging, bombing barbarians, killing that black bitch, or anything of the sort. Also, she did ask Cleon I if he'd like to consider marriage and have son, she's not programmed to kill every Cleon spotted eating food in wrong order. At least wasn't programmed that way when Cleon II was already growing in some water tank. She was willing to accept Cleon II who would be 50% Cleon I, why, after 400 years, would she kill Cleon XIV because he's 99.99% Cleon I?
I agree with your thoughts of the season, as usual! Started strong, lagged a little, then picked up the pace, yes the Trantor storyline was always more engaging, I did wander a little during the extended Terminus arc scenes and episodes, but the dynasty idea has been Apple's best touch, it's so well done I forget that it wasn't in the original material, a perfect weave. Love the casting, and can't wait for the next season, I always seek your follow ups straight after I watch the expanse or Foundation because they're just so engaging and relatable, so thanks again and here's to many more Pete!
It does seem that the two foundation Hari’s are not networked because foundation two Hari would have known Gaal was not on Terminus. Also, now that Hari has admitted to being a revolutionary the attack on the star bridge looks to be too convenient to the plot not for him to have had a hand in it. If it comes out in the future that he did, it could complicate the alliance of foundation one.
As for Demerzel something is going to pop if it turns out that there is no more pure DNA to create any more clones this would put her in a strange position with what she feels and her programming. Her programming will make her see all the clones as a threat but if she acts on it there will be no more clones left and no dynasty.
As for Gaal and Salvor reuniting at the end I did think this was a little rushed but there is only so much you can fit into a ten run season.
And thankyou to Pete for the episode recaps.👍
How else would Hari know the Empire would want to start a war with the Foundation, if he didn't have a hand in Empire's downfall? 🤔
Good thing that both Seldons arenot networked as at least then they still keep to the original Asimovs' novel idea that Hari does not know about the events in the future, in the original he is like a recording that says what will happen in future according to psychohistory and provides solutions to ''Seldon crises'', if they get networked that idea goes out of the window too, as then we do not get WTF moments like when psychohistory plan he made is derailed and actually events in real life unfold differently
@@lorezyra psychohistory?
@@irmaosmatos4026
You might have missed the point... Psychohistory is the mask that Hari invented to build his vision of the future. Sure, there's some real math employed, but it's only conveniently understood by Gaal - who has an incentive to support Hari. It was enough to rally supporters to join his cause and then orchestrate his "immortal will" on the events thereafter.
The Azura scene with Brother Day and the neck-snapping scene are probably my two favorite scenes from the show so far
Note to self: Never piss off Brother Day! Never!
Never, ever Piss off Demerzel!
@@MrRjhyt at least she will just kill you compassionately. Brother day, 😳. Damn!!!
I love how he starts off talking about how he has put aside a sense of self and then very personally punishes her
@@MrRjhytmeh, you can just turn it off
I am a non reader of the Foundation novels and feel nothing but complete and total amazement for this story. I love this show. There is no way this could have been done as a movie not even this story line. I’m looking forward to your continued reviews, analysis & expectations. Perhaps I will get into reading the books between now and the second season. Apparently they are in the basement of my mothers house as she says she read them all, lol.
tbh, Foundation novels only start to have ''meat'' with the introduction of the Mule, which for this show might be end of season 3 or maybe even season 4. Up till then it's just a few short stories, like no wonder they introduced Clone emperors and Gaal stuff, as there is like 100 pages in the novel of events taking place in season 1. You cannot adapt 100 pages for 10 episodes, there's very little in terms of details in early Foundation stories. Even season 2 material is the same, very little details.
Harris lack of surprise during the bridge incident and his speech in this episode makes me think he had something to do with the bombing
Great breakdown Pete of not only this episode but the whole season. Thanks for all you do my friend!
But wait! What about that moment when Demrezel touches the small of Dawn’s back. Made me think she had some sort of plan to save him.
A part of me thinks she’s behind the adulterated clones. She has the most access.
me too.
Yep that was my first thought as well!! Her ending made it seem even more so. Almost like she couldn’t quite cope with what she’d actually done. We’ll see ;)
Her touching Dawn’s back to nudge him into the room
made me think of when she pushed that earlier Dusk forward against his wishes to be incinerated on his ascension day.
It was a similar gesture to when she urged previous Dusk to walk into the Vaporisor. I think it was a hint that to her this walk to the throne room was Dawn's last one.
@@LadyJay882 this would play into the concept that she created the Cleons, and as well, that she adulterated them -- sort of like a motherly reassurning touch for one she holds dear.
Man i really feel for Demerzel, she chose to kill brother Dawn in a way to show him mercy while being truly honest in that she did love him, which leads me to believe she does love all the Cleons but she may have loved Dawn more especially because he was different, and man just Demerzel's arc, the poor Android, I'd really just like to give her a hug (if she promised not to snap my neck)
I'm remined of the scene where Brother Night says something is wrong when the baby Dawn is crying and she makes sure he doesn't look into it and becomes ash.
Because she is behind all of it. Has to be.
I'm sure he would have preferred to live a longer life
In terms of "love" and "mercy"😒
I still think this would be better as an anthology with different characters like in the books, but
Lee Pace was pure gold!
I've just finished season 1. I have to say I'm glad I didn't read any reviews in advance because my favourite parts are generally the ones people seem to have disliked. The time jumps, the sprawling narrative strands and Gaal and Salvor's journeys.
Don't get me wrong. I do think the genetic dynasty is fascinating writing - especially if it wasn't in the books - but it's the female leads and the foundation itself that had me hooked. Just goes to prove there can be something for everyone and we all interpret things differently.
Looking forward to starting season 2 and your recaps have been super useful!
What an ending, there are so many layers to this story and I'm wondering what some of those mean for the future. Can't wait for next season, thanks for all your coverage of this Pete, you've done an awesome 👍 job.
Jared Harris in Chernobyl: Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth
Jared Harris in Foundation: Well, I might have lied about that
I don't think Demerzel killed Brother Dawn out of a desire for revenge or specifically because he was different. I think it was mainly because Brothers Day and Dusk were so divided about what to do with Dawn that they would have split and likely one would have ended up dead by the hand of the other, and the Genetic Dynasty would have been completely broken. Even If Day and Dusk didn't try to kill each other and went separate ways, it likely would have divided the empire in half and broken the dynasty anyway. Killing Dawn was the lesser evil and the only way (as far as she knew at this point) to maintain the dynasty. He was ultimately killed because the fact that he was different was going to cause a schism. I think if Day and Dusk were both cool with him being slightly different she would not have harmed him. She did what her programming compelled her to do, but as we saw it was something she didn't want to do. Sadly, I'm not finding the other storylines interesting in the slightest.
Thank you for all these insightful videos. I really enjoyed this first season and your videos only added to the pleasure!
Didn’t the Infiltrator Dawn said he was a perfect copy of the original?
Maybe they can use his corpse as a source if it is true. The saboteurs might just have saved the Cleonic Dynasty in an ironic twist.
I wondered that.
They probably fried his body - but seems like they should’ve kept him in the freezer for posterity.
It might just be that the latest saboteurs only believed he was a perfect copy because they are different saboteurs from the ones that tempered with the cloning program right at the onset when Cleon the First died and the first clone had been decanted. Maybe the latter was Demerzel herself.
Seems like the cremation of the many Brother Dusks was a mistake.
Your recaps are fantastic. Thank you!
The door was open for Azura to point at Day after he says he has eliminated anyone who has memory of her to say, "It has all been in vain, Empire, there will always be ones who remember me....you and Dusk will remember. I will be a cautionary tale told for all time to Cleons henceforth and therefore granted my own immortality. Your reign must end for me to be forgotten."
Oh, that would have been an epic burn.
Yeah, was thinking the same. In my head I was replying as Azura, 'I still have my legacy in you'.
That’s something I think only the huntress would’ve had the gall abs wherewithal to say in that moment.
That is some good writing.
I absolutely ENJOYED THIS RIDE!!! I rarely try new scifi shows until they're in at least their 3rd season (been burned too many times, investing in a show just to see it immediately canceled)
Being new to Apple+ I felt it was probably a safe bet to give it a try, gladvi did!
I'm now hunting for the books as I wait for season 2!
I'm also enjoying your channel and the discussion your hosting on these shows!
Thank you!!!
Personally, I quite enjoy the last we see of Demerzel this season. Her expression at the end was vague enough for me to ponder if it was pain or anger. Can’t wait to find out in the next season. Overall, I find season 1 enjoyable. A good start. If there’s a question, I guess it’d be what exactly did Terminus Harry mean when he said “This isn’t the Foundation’s 1st crisis…” See y’all next season.
The whole structure of the original book series is based on the concept of recurrent crises facing the foundation.
@@rmcode Thank you, friend. I do get that. What got me pondering was that exact phrasing: "Not the 1st crisis." To this point, we've been led to believe that this was the foundation's 1st crisis. By stating it's not, the show suggests possible omission(s) or, even tastier, time travel. You catch my meaning? In any case, I look forward to seeing what the writers have in store for us next year. Ciao
I feel like this crisis was not resolved in the same way as the book. The book had both parties still at war, and the standoff is what saves Terminus. I guess that the critical technology that Terminus possesses has been changed from Nuclear plants to Starship building.
@@thomaswayne1852 Time-travel? God, I hope not! But what it might mean (that this wasn't the Foundation's 1st crisis) could be that the Foundation didn't really start with Terminus. Seldon has been working on his project since he was a young man - there's probably been other Plans, Projects and Crises. I think Goyer has said that some of the future seasons may delve into the past as well. We certainly need to know more about Demerzel's past. If the show does what the books did, then maybe it will work towards a confluence of two different Plans - the long-term Robot Plan and the more recent Seldon Plan. This show didn't give any indication that Demerzel had a past with Seldon, but clearly, if there is also a Robot Plan (and there must be, since she is that old, and since she is probably, IMO, behind the Starbridge bombing), she must have been very aware of what he was doing, and has probably helped him along - maybe even covertly given him the technological means to carry out his Plan (the vault seems way more advanced than what the current, declining Empire is capable of).
@@clarkkent7973 I never read the books. So, forgive me, Superman? I'm coming at this as a sci-fi fan, nothing more. I think I like what they have set up ;)
Thank you for retelling the stories as it is already shown in the series
The early episodes were slow in getting to know or care about the characters. But the latter episodes have fixed that issue. Now I’m invested in Harding and the Genetic Dynasty. I was horrified by the sentence Day gave to the girl but then challenged to see he truly cared about Dawn. Conflicting on wanting to hate or at the very least understand Days character. But all in all it was a epic undertaking.
If we get to finish that plot before they time jump, then I think that we’ll find out that he didn’t have those people executed. The psychology impact of that false belief would be just as effective as if Day actually had that done, but without the mess that you’d have to cover up so that those that they didn’t account for decide ghat they either want answers or payback assuming the equivalent of the 7 degrees of separation on a planet of one trillion. It would be a Dusk level cruelty and miscalculation.
...and his kindness to the pilgrim followed by sending Demerzel to assissinate Halima. Kindness followed by breathtaking cruelty and spitefulness. The cruelty to Azura and everyone who knew her goes beyond any compassion he's ever shown.
@@xy11xy good sociopaths alternate punishment and reward to get obedience
I have been having some fun conversations with friends playing with some ideas for overall plot lines, be they part of season two or further into the series. Very, very far fetched, andzaney, but still.... I have also been enjoying the many conversations that this e-group has shared as well , and I thank everyone for this time -- I look forward to more as we get further into the series. While I do have a life outside of this series, I freely admit to being drawn in more and more but I do have a set of brakes - I just haven't haven't applied them - yet. )
I have been slowly rewatching the first season, seeing that I missed some details, and gaining new insights as a result -- so much detail seems to fly by that a second look was warrented for me - both visual as well as hints as to what might come. I even spent some time with friends stopping at certain frames to take in scenes that I felt had an element of artisitc composition. There were many frames that I truly admired, but the one that stood out the most was Lee Pace when he was sitting in the water in the cave after having walked the spiral, waiting for .... well... waiting for something to reveal itself. I was actually quite astonished. It looked like an artistically thought out frame, one that could be hung on a wll if you were into that. Many in this conversation thread have spoken of Lee Pace as a great actor, and expressed the hope that he would continue to be part of the series in some way. To all those I can safely say -- I get it now!! So a few friends who watch the series with me have come up with some ideas as to how he might continue to be in the series (assuming that he wants to) , even after the Cleons are gone. We came up with this: we all know that the robot has to change out both the brain and body over time - the brain fills up and has to ber upgraded, and the bodies simply wear out, or they have been exchanged as a matter of not being recognized. It does, however, return to its original body as its "true" identity at times. Could Lee Pace, then, be one of the iterations of the robot? Perhaps even the "true" iteration. We know that the robot created the Empire and quite possibly the Cleons - at least in appearance ( in the robots own image), so the argument went to whether or not the robot had used its ture form to create the first Cleon. This has been the most fun thinking experiment that we have come up with, and am wondering if there are any other thougts as to other ideas that would keep him in the series. As for Season two, we are playing around with that as well -- if anything fun comes up, I'll report back (so far, same old same old -- I need to get more creative!). Happy holiday to all!
i didn't know asimov's books, i missclicked on foundation on my stream site and i got hooked right away. i really like the idea of the genetic dynasty and Demerzel is definitely my favorite character. overall i find the 1st season really good.
i'd really like to know, why she walked the spiral 11k years ago(if that's in the books) and how she ended up at the service of cleon the 1st.
The show barely resembles the books. They took the story and characters to a very different path.
the parts you like aren't from the books.
the show is crap as an adaptation.
It was a good effort. I found it interesting how they emphasized the empire so heavily, whereas in the books it's mostly in the background. I understand the need for action and showing the crisis, rather than talking about it, but one thing I wish they had done differently was Harry and the Vault; I wished they had followed the books a bit more. Still, though I am looking forward to season 2 and beyond. I'm very curious to see how they do the Mule as well as the 2nd Foundation.
Seldon comes off as somewhat of a villain in the second act, an unreliable trickster with his own agenda with the people of the foundation being no more than puppets not unlike the people of the empire are to the Cleons.
Demrizel totally undermined Day which makes me thinks she is behind collapse of the Cleonic dynasty which is causing her dissonance but she’s doing it anyway
Also that far in the future I’m surprised a neck snap can’t be fixed if treated immediately but sci-fi limitations are story tools. The nanites in there bodies seem to only work for superficial healing
Nanites were removed by the rebels
I suppose there is something of the trickster in his characterization but the coming of a new Dark Age is inevitable. He was manipulating events to shorten that time in a dark age as much as possible. And like it or not people cling to myths. Using myth-making is a viable tool for manipulating societies toward the end goal.
I honestly don't think Demerezel can undermine her programming. She must protect the Cleonic dynasty
Demerzel's directive to protect the dynasty would not allow Dawn to be brought back to life. She would stop anyone who tried.
Villain in the second act???
In act 1 it's implicit but clear to me he's the one behind the terrorist attack on the space elevator just to get his plans moving forward and start the Dark Age on his own terms.
They made him a complete villain allright, pure zealot type with a savior complex. There's plenty of religious fanaticism undertones going on the show.
Man that was some good sci fi !! I used to wish for this type of show for the foundation books. The whole time I was watching the finale, I couldn’t wait to get to your breakdowns!!! Lol
Best episode of the series yet:)
My jaw dropped with the sneak snapping, this episode was amazing, the acting was nothing but amazing
Hari Seldon: Good job recovering the invictus even if you had no idea that was the plan, now you have technology to defend yourselves!
Also, Hari Seldon: *has the technology to create a vault that copies his mind and can make everybody faint and is invulnerable to combat ship's weapons and can travel through space and keeps it all a secret for himself and doesn't give it to the Foundation to defend themselves*
It was the unexpected turns... brilliant.
As soon as Demerzel killed Brother Dawn, it made me immediately think how you soothe a chicken 🐔 right before breaking it’s neck.
The Cleon parts of the series are definitely the best, all three actors are phenomenal in their roles! Dawn was the victim of the entire rebel plot, Day was the only one who cared about him. I think Dawn's story may reverberate through future Cleons and a future Cleon will be instrumental in ending the empire so their civilization can live.
Wow, I forgot how complex this show is. Thank you for the excellent recap and enjoy the new season!
So THIS is what Anderson Dawes has been up to..
Imagine The Expanse and Foundation somehow had a collab😭
Interesting thing about the whole azura this is that empire doesn't really have to kill everyone. What matters is that she knows he could do it and so believing he has she'll go into sensory deprivation knowing they are dead because of her. She'll be insane inside 6 months. He has taken her legacy away from her with us not knowing whether he actually killed anyone.
Loved the season and the finale. Thrilled for a second season.
If you can make it through the time jumps in the first couple episodes, this is well worth watching. They are just at first, confusing, but ultimately get lined up in a way that makes sense.
I'm fairly certain that the Shadow told Brother Dawn that he and Brother Dusk had also be genetically altered. And that all of the clones for hundreds of years had been tainted making it impossible for them to create a pure clone. But also more importantly, that the genetic dynasty has been operating with the false belief that they were the same as the OG. So the question is planted how has and will these differences impact the Empire and how would/will the citizens react if they learned the truth.
As an aside: Does these genetic changes/evolutions make Empire better able to adapt and survive, or are they the reason Empire falls?
And we're now 138 years since that discovery was made. Can't wait for season 2 to dwell on the aftermath.
@@captainyossarian388 The Brother would have to have killed hundreds to keep their secret. I can see things going normally, but the Brothers becoming more and more paranoid. Things are going to get very messy. The funny thing is that even without the clone abnormalities the Brothers have never really been the same person. The personalities evolve or devolve but they have lied to themselves. So the internal lie is gone. So it's only the public being lied to how long can that continue and who breaks first?
He said Day was altered for sure. They were looking into Dusk.
@@karl2405 You are correct. But I'm going to assume that he has been diluted also. Because if not it would not matter that the original has been tainted because all Empire would need to do was make Dusk the new source. Eliminate the diluted Day and Empire would be good as new. So I choose to think Dusk is also diluted because that makes for a far more interesting story. We'll have to wait till next year to find out. I don't know why, but out of all of the Brothers I disliked Dusk the most out of the most recent generation. Though Day is cunningly evil.
@@malestorm234 Yeah probably drama-wise it makes most sense for them all to be altered. It also gives all of the brothers, and Demerezel, moral dilemmas.
I didn't hate any of the brothers, they were all acting as best they could from what they knew. But yeah I liked Day, Dawn, Dusk in that order. Lee Page is an amazing actor!
The mathematical probability that Gaal is going through space in a space escape capsule and the one who found Salvor in Synnax is... Let say... ASTRONOMICAL !!
She came back home and Salvor was searching for her in her place, not so strange. If it was in a place stranger to both of them, Yes ASTRONOMICAL !!
Nope -- it's not astronomical -- It's television!!
"At my signal, they will all cease to exist. . . . There. All gone."
I love that man!!! ;D
The single coldest act of revenge I've seen on TV. Brilliantly done.
@@jimmywrangles Coolest detail about it - he takes her to this garden, she sitting with him, birds singing, everything like in paradise. But, no place for doubt that everyone she ever met just died. What a contrast.
Her future is also awesome detail. I bet she's gonna live 300 years. Shrouded and fed intravenously in sensory deprived eternity lol
You gotta be Cleon to think of all that.
I expected this dialogue to happen when Gaal and Salvor Harding got togeather: Salvor: "I am your daughter." Gaal: "Noooooooooooo!!!"
The box with our solar system seems like a major detail
I love how the shadow master slowly and vaguely suggested that brother day is adulterated himself. Clearly fearing for his life
I so want to just watch this now rather than waiting till i get in from work to watch the actual show!
Demerzel is the best character! I am OBSESSED with her-I wish they would have given us a quick flashback to one of her previous lives, come on already, show me more about her! Did she CREATE that religion? How exactly has she been altered? Is she suffering from robotic PTSD??! What effects will it have on her mind to be forced to do things she is morally disgusted by, for hundreds of years? What CAN she do? Has she been working against Empire, in extremely subtle ways? Can she manage THAT somehow? Why can’t she reprogram herself? She can switch body parts-and possibly impersonate others-so why can’t she edit her own code? How can such a complex mind be restrained this way? Looking forward to your video on her!!
After watching all season one ten episodes. Amazing!! The scoop of interplay of the characters actions and the expanse of time over which the series covers is mindboggling. It's impressive. Though I fall in love with a character and their story and want them to stay longer that time and place, but the character fast forwards hundreds of years forward dropping them into a completely new story. The writers and directors do it brilliantly, and the actors are a joy so go with it. The two actresses they end season two with are a gift and I look forward to seeing where they go in this series, and future performances. Hell, that goers for all of the actors in this series. I can't wait to see more of this masterful series and this cast and crew. (I just hope it's not too intellectual to be the hit. it deserves to be.
Thanks for doing these, you really helped me better understand and enjoy this show. Well done.
I really loved this series but Lee Pace man, he really steals the show. Such a great actor they got for Empire/Cleon.
they should just make a spinoff of a whole season on just the Cleons alone cause I was tuned in a lot during the Empire stuff. It gave me Game of Throne vibes... in space lol. Maybe a spinoff of how the first Cleon was and then onto the first generation of clones. A lot of room for ideas.
@@CasanovaPugilist147 not even sure we need a spin off just yet! We are going into season 2. Still plenty of time to show us that first Cleon.
I loved the show on many levels. It also included the most believable version of a starship that I've ever seen; one that creates its own black hole to bridge space-time. Very clever.
I think it was largely a successful first season. In the vein of authentic sci-fi (particularly Asimov’s books) it asks interesting questions about the future, morality, technological implications and more. I agree the genetic dynasty was an interesting addition as is their robotic governess. The special effects were strong as was most of the acting. Where the show falls down for me a bit is it sometimes struggles to build tension, which makes the action sequences feel a bit flat. The actress portraying Salva - I’m not sure if its the casting or her performance but that character falls a bit flat for me, not horrible but not great. I enjoyed just about everyone else. It’s worth noting the books are more intellectual than emotional and I give the writers a lot of credit for bridging that gap, though I have to say part of the tension gap is also that most of the twists are predictable. That said, all and all it is a success, I’ll be back for S2.
Really good review. A valiant effort at a very complex trilogy.
I have a question.
Why was the plant shown to grow and expand. Then they immediately cut back to the exact same time!?! Then after Salvor left, they had another growth/development montage.
Yeah the editing is a bit clunky, there were also some scene transition that doesn't really work well in the older episodes.
Looking forward to your video on Demerzel. She (they) have a lot of explaining to do on how they have ignored the first law of Robotics.
The Robots usually agonized about any death and it caused them great distress. here they kill billions without any difficulty. It was bad. 1 episode of asimovs foundation. 3 of gender swapping and diversity casting. 2 of screwing. 3 of religious mumbo jumbo of the clones, and the remainder of generic action.
i was totally captivated by the last half of the finale, from the Salvor and her mom scene on. The fight scenes were lackluster all season but the space action scenes were great.
I like more linear storytelling like the seocnd half. The first few episodes, jumping from one planet to another at different time zones were more confusing than stylistic.
i understand that if you watch it as a wholeyou look at it differently. The fact is, all the episodes weren't available to binge at once. Showrunners should take that into consideration as well.
Will i rewatch the whole first season ?
Yes.
Thank you. Such a well made review series.
I wasn't sure at first, but for me it got better with each episode, and that bodes well for season 2. Terminus was the weak part for me, but I really think that was hindered by Covid. But I also felt that Salvor was not portrayed very well. I didn't find any of her connections believable. Whether it was scenes with her mother, father, bf, huntress, etc... I just always felt like the actress was just waiting for the other person to finish their lines so she could say hers. Maybe that was a directorial choice to convey that she is different, but even her last scene with her bf, I didn't get any sense that she was sad about leaving him (kind of the opposite actually). But again, maybe that was intentional.
Did anyone else get the Big Bang Theory easter egg? The speech about three legs of a stool...and it's fitting because Sheldon is almost Seldon :)
I was also into the Cleon arc more. Read the book a long time ago and have been waiting for a TV adaptation for decades :D Did not have any big expectations, the series is decent enough.
About Demerzel being able to break the 1st law of robotics "A robot may not injure a HUMAN BEING or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm", if you read about the Robot "Daneel Olivaw" ... they were the 1st robot to be "indistinguishable from humans" in the foundation books. Daneel is almost 20,000 years old and has survived so long by changing their identity (most recently to Eto Demerzel). So Daneel is Demerzel. Daneel was able to develop a fourth law of Robotics "Zeroth Law" which states "A robot may not harm HUMANITY, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm". This is a unique law that only Daneel has been able to achieve by hardwiring their brain differently (theres a backstory here about how this came to be). But essentially it means Demerzel has been able to kill humans in accordance with what they believe to be the best thing for humanity.
Then theres the fact that in the series, Demerzel states she has been reprogrammed to by the dynasty to protect the lineage. But I thought the above was pretty interesting from the books and hope they hint towards this in future series!
Spoiler Alert!!! The books -- originals, prequels, sequels, all lead in the end to Daneel's use of his unique powers (to reprogram himself, and the development of the zeroth law) as having guided Humanity to keep it from harm. The denouement comes when he has to choose another way for Humanity after the failure of the Empire, but there are some twists as to how he comes to the choice which is based on a mistake some 20,000 years before. I can't imagine how the Apple series can change that - then again, they changed so much already, so who knows??
I really disliked the part about the Foundation being about curating "the people" over "psychohistory". At this point I dont know why they slapped "the Foundation" tittle on the production. It seems like it is a "pastiche" of a number of "new school" scifi ideas. Im unsure why people keep doing "random story" + "Optioned Book Name" as a thing. Nothing in the story has me wanting more.
I don't know either. They have no interest in the themes of the books. They're actually acting out what Asimov was saying was bad. Math now is witchcraft that can predict where a mystery ship will appear and who will capture it. It's absurd. Meanwhile we get the boring Hardin emo. The only part of this show working is the genetic dynasty storyline and that isn't from the books at all.
@@chrislutz416 I mean, that idea is not absurd at all. It's scientific determinism - if you could know the properties of every particle in the universe you could predict every event. That seems to pretty much be the basis on which psychohistory is based on, from a more up-to-date perspective. In fact almost all scientific and mathematical models are deterministic.
When you watching or reading epic creations like this one, you may think only about one thing - how to live long enough, to see what will come out of this, and how it will end up. "live long and prosper."
I loved the season! I hadn’t heard of Foundation prior to Apple making the series, which probably is a good thing because I went in without expectations. The cinematography was beautiful. The story is great and I really liked the special effects. I can’t wait for season two!
The final denouement of Azura was brutal. I've seen tougher scenes, but I can't remember where.
Amy Tyger's performance was understated, to say the least, but it's hard to imagine how the impact of such a horrifying portent would be expressed.
Creating a mega flare...that would take light/infos hundreds of years to reach Trentor unless they have another way of receiving messages faster than light...remember the com buoy was broken. So, Trentor wouldn't know about the mega flare...and they would still wonder why there was no response from one of their ships.
They have Galaxy-wide hyperspace communication so it probably wouldn`t take that long, just enough time for the flare`s light to reach the nearest still functioning com buoy. Probably a few years tops. This sort of thing seems to be cropping up in a lot of SF shows these days though which shows that a lot of writers need to learn a bit more physics.
Great review of all ten episodes really appricate your insights and theories
Love your positive viewpoints! Im trying to reconcile my knowledge of the books with the show, and frankly have arrived at the decision to dissociate them both, as it appears they are only going to follow the books in the broadest of strokes. That said I’m still interested and excited for season 2 and the Hober Mallow story, the character does at least travel regularly beyond Terminus, so it should give the writers more material to work with such as the Korell storyline.
I have taken this exact same tack -- as have others methinks. It would seem they bought the rights to use the names of the characters and a vague underpinning of the story, but with little in the way of a deeper understanding of the ideas being presented in the books. Hence, more violence, less ideas. Maybe the requirement of having to read the 'Fall of the Roman Empire as a prerequisite to making a film would have been in order.......
Shadow Master hesitantly confirmed that brother day was indeed altered. They were waiting for the results of dusk.
Following from my thought that Day had Demercel kill the priestess as revenge on the felt betrayal when she outet herself as follower, I also think this was not a fail safe, but a reverse revenge compatible with the programming.
Great review! Thank you. What a fabulous story. Did we lose some book years when Gaal and Salvor meet face to face?
I really hope they have one hell of an explanation for all these hunches and visions, for a show where one of the central themes is the inevitability and predictive power of math they seem to be toying with the supernatual way too much.
They don't. No math can predict decades into the future, exactly one group will find and capture a specific ship. Math has now become wizardry.
@@chrislutz416 Well there is a theory that if we were somehow able to map the position of every particle in the universe that we would be able to perfectly recreate the past or predict the future, everything is about action & reaction so if you know the action of one particle you can know what the reaction of another one is gonna be and so on and so forth. Of course as far as we know we'll never be able to ever create a supercomputer powerful enough to perform such a task
@@dreamxcviii3249 It's not a theory, it's true. IF we could do that - it's the entire premise of what "psychohistory" is based on. The idea that we can suspend our disbelief for "psychohistory", millennia old robots that still function perfectly, and even FTL travel (especially with no time dilation effects) but anything else is wizardry is absurd lol.
Very good presentation of the ending. Congrats. Loved the Cleon clones but not much the Salvor hardin stuff which was too slow and confusing too much.
I want them to take this season and cut it per each storyline. Then stitch them together in 3 different long episodes per each story. Jumping between 3 different stories and timelines multiple times per episode made it way harder to follow then it was necessary imo.
I say this with most tv series and sometimes even movies. It’s a narrative device to switch between stories. But i’d be able to put a lot more together if it was just a clip montage of the different story lines stitched together
My questions for the finally :
Who… no, What is the Shadow Master? He doesn’t seem to age at all and Hari also mentioned he was ordered by Cleon II to kill the Huntress. This means he has been a servant to the Cleonic dynasty for at least 300-400 years, but how? Is he is a robot? Is he a clone? Or is it involved the cryo-pod?
What is the galactic council? When Day decided to give Dawn a second chance, Dusk said “if the galactic council discovers our dynastic thread is broken, we are through.” So… there is a galactic council, and it seems this council is powerful enough to somewhat threaten Dusk and Day (Day said “the council needs never know.”). So… what is this council? Is it like the Landsraad from Dune or something similar?