Someone below mentions the 83% Rule. That is in reference to the book by Jim Smith, called Get Better Sound. In it he gives alot of info on room setup and placement of you speakers amongst other info. I have the book, as a PDF. In it the 83% rule refers to the distance measured between your speakers tweeters (Centre line to centre line) being 83% of the distance between your seat and the centre point between your speakers measured from the front baffle. Contrary to popular belief this triangle should not be an equilateral one, rather it is an isosceles triangle.
Yes to this, 100%. It is best to sit just outside of the point of a perfect equilateral triangle somewhere between 1.1X or 1.2X the distance your speakers are apart or somewhere between 5-20% greater. Measure the distance between your tweeters and take that X 1.1 or 1.2 and there is where you should be seated away from your speakers (specifically your ears to the tweeter).
I like a studio-like setup, in which speakers are toed-in at 60° compared to back plane, forming as such an equilateral triangle. This will also determine the hypotetical listening point. Then, seating with the head inside that triangle, sound will be more mellow and musical; seating more in the back with the head outside the triangle will get you drier sound and more pinpoint accurate. I read of this somewhere some time ago in a studio monitor maker site and always find this a great suggestion.
@@fabrized Yes, my rule of thumb, that I read somewhere in the past, is to toe in the speakers and aim them at 1 to 1.5 ft behind the listener's head. I also use the center of the speaker vertically to match my ear height when seated in my listening position.
I think that it depends on the speakers. My listening position was 11 feet from the speakers. With my Legacy Audio Valors, I have them 10.5 feet apart with very little toe-in. However, with my Legacy Audio Aeris, I had them 9 feet apart with more toe-in. You just have to experiment. When it comes to determining toe-in, I use a song track which as a sound moving from left to right. If there is not enough toe-in, the sound jumps across the center. If you toe-in just enough, the sound moves continuously across the sound stage. If you toe-in too much, the sound stage shrinks and bass energy seems to go up. I therefore start with speakers pointing straight and toe-ing them in a little bit at a time until I get that smooth transition from left to right.
Stereo was envisioned as rear projection thru Speakers Alan Blumlein was sitting in a movie theater in 1929 when the concept came to mind he had a deep understanding of RF including radar. Tow and rake are important unless the speaker is designed to project the Soundstage in a different manner,I encourage the curious to watch the demonstrations from the 30s 3 Piano playing an a triangle with each individually heard.
The letter was two pages long and took Paul about 1 min 37 sec to read when the question to Paul could have been expressed in one simple sentence. Paul's answer was excellent and useful and took only about 3 minutes to express. Paul owns a pair of Infinity IRS V's, perhaps the greatest audiophile speakers ever marketed. He outta know.
Somewhere along the way the ratio was changed? Way back in the day, the '70's when I started in HiFi, the ideal ratio was 2 to 3 ratio. The speakers were 2 units apart for every 3 units away. 6ft apart for a 9ft listening position. 9ft apart for a 12ft seating location.... Now I hear equilateral, same distance apart for the distance between. This was always more for near field back in the day. Klipsch with his Corner horns was famous for the too far apart problem because they had to be put in the room's corners which especially if the wide dimension of the room, was way too far apart for a center image. So ole Paul decided to commit heresy and add a 3rd channel speaker as center fill. And he called that reduced bandwidth center fill speaker the Heresy!
From personal experience, another way to get great soundstage with wide separation is with Omnidirectional speakers. Soundstage is what Omnis do best. Not so much "headphone-like" imaging. Ohm speakers force toe-in by pointing the super-tweeters towards center at an angle.
You can look at a speaker as a flashlight. the further away they are from others, the less light you get towards you. It is logical that you then have to tow them in!
Yes, and also, if your speakers are far apart and are pointing forward and you are sitting at a 45 degree angel to them, you are hearing the 45 degree "off axis response" of the speaker which is usually far inferior to the direct response.
@@3Cr15w311 You would have to be an idiot to use a setup like that. Sitting in an equilateral triangle you are exactly 30 degrees off axis if the speakers are facing straight ahead. To be sitting at 45 degrees off axis of the tweeter you would clearly not know what you are doing at all. Ha ha.
I have mine 8 feet apart, and I sit 7 feet away. I have had to toe then in so the cross over in front of me and tilt them back a degree or 2 back. Get a great soundstage, depth and height. And good recordings sound further outside the speakers as well left and right.
at +$150k if you want stadium sound in the home look at getting an EV or Martin Audio Active Line array's with matching sub's. or call Krix here in SA for their world class passive theatre systems. You've got/built a massive listening room, you're going to need a serious system to make it come alive. If you want live concert audio, you need live concert gear.
@@MrAaron117x it’s the truth. Take a modest system, set it up perfectly, maybe add a bit of treatment at the right spots and it will sound better than a system worth much more set up poorly in a poor room.
If I had the liquidity to buy a pair of YG Sonja 2.2 and the relevant equipment up the signal path, I would want my dealer to come and setup them properly until I achieved what I have in mind.
The sound of the speakers should dictate their placement in any given room. The person who wrote the question is describing a Home Theater set-up. If he wants to get what he paid for with those speakers he should abandon the home theater screen idea and set the speakers up as Paul very nicely suggested.
But why say he hadn’t toed them in? If he knew toeing in might have been relevant why on earth not just try it before asking the question? Also can we all agree to use toe & axis the same way? Some reviewers/experts/whatever use on axis to mean pointed at the listener’s ears and some call that toed in. Can be a bit confusing…
It's probably worth your time to pay for someone that does lots of setup and do measurements with your new room. My audio store guy I work with has calibrated laser measurements for length and height for all types of positioning for the room. Takes about 1hour when he does mine. Scott at EvolutionHT in Buckhead is a great guy. My sound other spectrum than yours Sonus Faber Aida 2's speakers and VAC 452 IQ musicblock amps each in mono. U have separate theatre room from my listening room. I do not like blending the 2. Maybe if your room was big enough you could have a smaller walled off listening room and then bigger home theatre room. Regular listening room if you have smaller speakers can be for example 10 by 10 or 10 by 12 etc.
The most important attributes to achieving great sound are about choice of speakers and speaker placement/room acoustics and nobody “speaks” better to that topic than Paul.
Наука
Someone below mentions the 83% Rule. That is in reference to the book by Jim Smith, called Get Better Sound. In it he gives alot of info on room setup and placement of you speakers amongst other info. I have the book, as a PDF. In it the 83% rule refers to the distance measured between your speakers tweeters (Centre line to centre line) being 83% of the distance between your seat and the centre point between your speakers measured from the front baffle. Contrary to popular belief this triangle should not be an equilateral one, rather it is an isosceles triangle.
The 83% rule works great for me!
Yes to this, 100%. It is best to sit just outside of the point of a perfect equilateral triangle somewhere between 1.1X or 1.2X the distance your speakers are apart or somewhere between 5-20% greater. Measure the distance between your tweeters and take that X 1.1 or 1.2 and there is where you should be seated away from your speakers (specifically your ears to the tweeter).
I like a studio-like setup, in which speakers are toed-in at 60° compared to back plane, forming as such an equilateral triangle. This will also determine the hypotetical listening point. Then, seating with the head inside that triangle, sound will be more mellow and musical; seating more in the back with the head outside the triangle will get you drier sound and more pinpoint accurate.
I read of this somewhere some time ago in a studio monitor maker site and always find this a great suggestion.
@@fabrized Yes, my rule of thumb, that I read somewhere in the past, is to toe in the speakers and aim them at 1 to 1.5 ft behind the listener's head.
I also use the center of the speaker vertically to match my ear height when seated in my listening position.
I think that it depends on the speakers. My listening position was 11 feet from the speakers. With my Legacy Audio Valors, I have them 10.5 feet apart with very little toe-in. However, with my Legacy Audio Aeris, I had them 9 feet apart with more toe-in. You just have to experiment. When it comes to determining toe-in, I use a song track which as a sound moving from left to right. If there is not enough toe-in, the sound jumps across the center. If you toe-in just enough, the sound moves continuously across the sound stage. If you toe-in too much, the sound stage shrinks and bass energy seems to go up. I therefore start with speakers pointing straight and toe-ing them in a little bit at a time until I get that smooth transition from left to right.
Paul Sir, big thanks to you for sharing very important information with everyone...🙏
thank you letter writer 🙂 I have the same room size with almost the same problem. Gonna use Paul's tips to get it better :-)
Stereo was envisioned as rear projection thru Speakers Alan Blumlein was sitting in a movie theater in 1929 when the concept came to mind he had a deep understanding of RF including radar.
Tow and rake are important unless the speaker is designed to project the Soundstage in a different manner,I encourage the curious to watch the demonstrations from the 30s 3 Piano playing an a triangle with each individually heard.
The magic word you used is ‘couple’. You might want to elaborate more about what you mean here.
Sound waves of the speakers connecting.
After trying many speaker setup guides including The Audiophile's Guide, I found the Master Set system works best for my system.
The letter was two pages long and took Paul about 1 min 37 sec to read when the question to Paul could have been expressed in one simple sentence. Paul's answer was excellent and useful and took only about 3 minutes to express. Paul owns a pair of Infinity IRS V's, perhaps the greatest audiophile speakers ever marketed. He outta know.
Somewhere along the way the ratio was changed? Way back in the day, the '70's when I started in HiFi, the ideal ratio was 2 to 3 ratio. The speakers were 2 units apart for every 3 units away. 6ft apart for a 9ft listening position. 9ft apart for a 12ft seating location.... Now I hear equilateral, same distance apart for the distance between. This was always more for near field back in the day.
Klipsch with his Corner horns was famous for the too far apart problem because they had to be put in the room's corners which especially if the wide dimension of the room, was way too far apart for a center image. So ole Paul decided to commit heresy and add a 3rd channel speaker as center fill. And he called that reduced bandwidth center fill speaker the Heresy!
From personal experience, another way to get great soundstage with wide separation is with Omnidirectional speakers. Soundstage is what Omnis do best. Not so much "headphone-like" imaging. Ohm speakers force toe-in by pointing the super-tweeters towards center at an angle.
Mine are about 3 meters apart no toe as recommended by Dali.
Actually 83% rule is best between speaker and listening position
You can look at a speaker as a flashlight. the further away they are from others, the less light you get towards you. It is logical that you then have to tow them in!
Yes, and also, if your speakers are far apart and are pointing forward and you are sitting at a 45 degree angel to them, you are hearing the 45 degree "off axis response" of the speaker which is usually far inferior to the direct response.
@@3Cr15w311 You would have to be an idiot to use a setup like that. Sitting in an equilateral triangle you are exactly 30 degrees off axis if the speakers are facing straight ahead. To be sitting at 45 degrees off axis of the tweeter you would clearly not know what you are doing at all. Ha ha.
I have mine 8 feet apart, and I sit 7 feet away. I have had to toe then in so the cross over in front of me and tilt them back a degree or 2 back. Get a great soundstage, depth and height. And good recordings sound further outside the speakers as well left and right.
@@MrDishdonkey Very strange. But whatever works for you!
Does focal Kanta2 got thin mid bass?
No
have
at +$150k if you want stadium sound in the home look at getting an EV or Martin Audio Active Line array's with matching sub's. or call Krix here in SA for their world class passive theatre systems.
You've got/built a massive listening room, you're going to need a serious system to make it come alive. If you want live concert audio, you need live concert gear.
Use your ears to determine the best position for your speakers. Quite simple really.
OK. That’s what I found out. I toe them in when they’re “far apart.”
Set up set up set up!!!!!!
It can make crappy speakers sound listenable. I have cheap speakers that I actually enjoy!
True story.
@@MrAaron117x it’s the truth. Take a modest system, set it up perfectly, maybe add a bit of treatment at the right spots and it will sound better than a system worth much more set up poorly in a poor room.
@@sean_heisler yes I should’ve said “modest system” allot of dirt cheap speakers are unlistenable.
If I had the liquidity to buy a pair of YG Sonja 2.2 and the relevant equipment up the signal path, I would want my dealer to come and setup them properly until I achieved what I have in mind.
Pretty wide if you turn them sideways.
The sound of the speakers should dictate their placement in any given room. The person who wrote the question is describing a Home Theater set-up. If he wants to get what he paid for with those speakers he should abandon the home theater screen idea and set the speakers up as Paul very nicely suggested.
Im from Indonesia, i often download your video, so many of them, don't know why ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ hahaa
But why say he hadn’t toed them in? If he knew toeing in might have been relevant why on earth not just try it before asking the question?
Also can we all agree to use toe & axis the same way?
Some reviewers/experts/whatever use on axis to mean pointed at the listener’s ears and some call that toed in. Can be a bit confusing…
Damned right!
If you buy a book about placement you are mental 😅
Lol, yeah, we can just download it now and pretend that we're sane.
It's probably worth your time to pay for someone that does lots of setup and do measurements with your new room. My audio store guy I work with has calibrated laser measurements for length and height for all types of positioning for the room. Takes about 1hour when he does mine. Scott at EvolutionHT in Buckhead is a great guy. My sound other spectrum than yours Sonus Faber Aida 2's speakers and VAC 452 IQ musicblock amps each in mono. U have separate theatre room from my listening room. I do not like blending the 2. Maybe if your room was big enough you could have a smaller walled off listening room and then bigger home theatre room. Regular listening room if you have smaller speakers can be for example 10 by 10 or 10 by 12 etc.
The most important attributes to achieving great sound are about choice of speakers and speaker placement/room acoustics and nobody “speaks” better to that topic than Paul.
GD MORNIN MR PAUL...HOW MY QUESTION COMING ALONG...IM SIMON..