Even though I studied kendo for years and really really like katanas, I must admit that most of katana's original appeal comes from its highly aesthetic form(that is related to trhe general minimalistic aesthetism of feudal Japan) and the aura of "exoticism" from the perception of Westerners that made this particular sword famous worldwide. It is just another form of the same old Orientalism, a version that deals especially with "mystic" South East Asia. On the surface level, this version of Orientalism looks like it has a highly romanticised positive bias against anything "Asian", so katana becomes the "super-sword" and samurai becomes the "sıuper-warrior" clichés.
Any culture different from one's own can seem "exotic" at first glance. For a lot of outsiders, America is incredibly glamorous and wonderful and fascinating, but that doesn't make them racist against American, does it? This is just normal human thinking. The attitude to Asian martial arts +rasnac is complaining about stem from martial arts movies, which of course deliberately showed such things as powerful and magical. So in that regard, the movies did what they meant to do. Anyone who starts from an attitude of distant admiration but then goes on to seriously investigate a new culture will gain a much more balanced understanding, as I'm sure many older weeaboos can attest. ;)
Another note on the katana: When you hit a hard object like wood or other sword hard enough, you can bend the katana and it STAYS bent like that. And the edge DOES chip in contact with another sword (like arming sword for example). Which doesn't mean the katana is crap. They just never used it in mass armored combat. European swords were made to take a beating and to find gaps in armor, their swords were used on little to no armor equipped opponents and the sword is PERFECT for that. It is super sharp and rigid enough to retain edge alignment during a cut. Bent and chipped katanas can be see in some historic Japanese paintings, confirming that even they encountered those issues.
Boodgemeister Except that they were used against heavy armor. Japanese already had heavy lamellar armor early on in the 9th-11th century (albeit less protective and specialized for horseback), and Katanas started becoming popular during the 14th ~ 16th century, when Japanese armor started becoming more developed and protective. A lot of the 16th century Japanese swords were very durable and robust, with reinforced tips and significant blades to be optimized in armor-rich battlefields. Dotanuki swords are a good example. And while differential methods may have its disadvantages, (stays bent), it does bring other advantages that a springy/soft blade doesn't have. It's harder to break than a springy/soft blade, and it holds its edges for longer. In medieval battlefields where weapon breakage may have been a big concern, differential methods are solid methods.
+dboyzero Yes, but I cannot read Japanese and I do not know of any good translations. There were many encounters between Portugese, Spanish, Dutch and English swordsmen and Japanese.
The National Museum of the Philippines, in Manila, have a small colection of Tsubas from a spanish galeon shipwreck of the XVI century. They believe these tsuba belonged to japanese samurai mercenaries who were part of the ship's crew. Japanese and Chinese iron are bad quality. The Katana complex manufacture, thus, aims to improve the quality of their blade as much as possible. On the whole, katanas can cut any material ranging between cloth fabric and wood. During the ages, hundreds of kenjutsu styles were developed throughout the territory. Each style has its own characteristics of cuts, positions etc. Some styles (like Muso styles) avoid any direct contact between blades to prevent damage. Some other styles allow contacts between blades. In this last case, it will be necessary to re-sharp the blade after its use. Some Spanish sources claim that Miyamoto Musashi's two handed kenjutsu style was inspired after watching a duel between Iberian soldiers handling both rapier and dagger. In either case, it was not by chance that Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch and Englishmen were not able to conquer Japan as they did to other territories of Asia (China, Indonesia and the Philippines), even if Japan was amidst a bloody civil war that lasted for more than a hundred years (Sengoku jidai). If Japanese warriors were weaker than western soldiers they would have indeed been conquered by foreign powers as their neighboors did.
Matt, forgive me if you've covered this somewhere else. I'll just point that wikipedia lists several samurai that traveled to europe in the late 16th-early 17th centuries. There apparently is at least one french account of Hasekura Tsunenaga waiting out some weather, and causing a stir in port: Copy pasted below "Many picturesque details of their movements were recorded: "They never touch food with their fingers, but instead use two small sticks that they hold with three fingers." "They blow their noses in soft silky papers the size of a hand, which they never use twice, so that they throw them on the ground after usage, and they were delighted to see our people around them precipitate themselves to pick them up." "Their swords cut so well that they can cut a soft paper just by putting it on the edge and by blowing on it." ("Relations of Mme de St Troppez", October 1615, Bibliothèque Inguimbertine, Carpentras)." Just thought I'd mention =)
Just a few comments, some of which have been touched on before by other posters here. There is an almost infinite variety in the quality of Nihonto ( Japanese blades), even during the periods of intense conflict. The average samurai was often armed with tabagatana (lit., bundle swords). These were of inferior quality, mass produced and sold in bundles (hence the name). The same can be said of Shingunto ( WWII era swords), perhaps more so, as they were made in greater numbers. At the bottom end, these blades were mass produced, oil quenched, and the temper line was merely acid etched to give the appearance of true differential tempering. At the other end were traditionally made blades, including Rikugun Jumei Tosho ( lit., Army Approved Swordsmith), and blades made at several of the Shinto Shrines. These were often of the highest quality. In between, there were many murato (lit., half forged sword) which ran the gamut from non-traditional manufacture with true differential tempering, to actual hand made blades with the steel derived from sources other than tamahagane (steel made from iron bearing sand). Reports on the quality of the Japanese sword, especially older reports, should be taken with a grain of salt, unless the writer was aware of the actual quality of the blade being tested. This is highly unlikely under the circumstances. In regards to foreigners buying Japanese swords, the vast majority were just souvenir items made expressly for export. These are almost always of the lowest quality, not real swords at all but trinkets made to bilk the rubes. They were condescendingly refered to as "hochotetsu" (lit. kitchen steel), although even this is an exaggeration. To make matters even more complicated, after the consolidation of the Tokugawa Shogunate in the early 17th Century, many sword makers began to produce highly artistic swords which, while still quite deadly, were oriented more as status symbols than weapons designed for extended combat. I have seen (and even owned) a number of these that were razor sharp, with intricate temper lines, but would not have held up to a protracted period of intense use. The best swords foreigners are likely to encounter today ( by true Tosho) are designed for kabutogane (a competition in which plates of iron are cut). These are very expensive, however. Lastly, during the Occupation of Japan at the end of WWII, Gen MacArthur's edict to round up and melt all Japanese swords was quickly retracted, due to complaints that national treasures were being destroyed. It is worth mentioning here that many of these swords were turned in to the first American soldier to arrive on the scene, and ended up in duffel bags headed back to the US. There are still about a dozen "meito" (lit., blade with a name), or national class treasures that have yet to be accounted for. In the final analysis, the quality of the blade (in terms of its performance in combat), whether it be Japanese or European, is not as important as the skill of the user. The better swordsman has the advantage regardless of the blade he is armed with.
Ahh, this video reminded me of Dan Carlin and how he likes to portray history. You are basically giving me three things: an exact quotation from a historian (very enriching to hear it in their wording), a reference to the book/source, and of course the information itself. Props to you!
So they have actually run out of arguments to the point where they are just calling you a hater, even though it's clear you love these subjects, probably more than they do based on their knowledge levels for something they love so much. Sad.
"...drawring...". So many reasons to love this channel, the accent being just one. Excellent information. Absolutely love when you read these accounts. Must pick up that book ASAP.
All Japanese martial arts suffer imo when they come over to the west because of the difference in culture. I'm doing kendo atm and living in Japan and want to carry on when I go back to England but everyone I've talked to in England takes it so bloody mystically. One of my friends noted how he just up and left the dojo when someone said in a kind of serine seriousness "we must live the way of the samurai". Here it's a casual sport like most others, people don't take practising that seriously. They're dedicated yea but none of that kind of mystical crap.
+Calvin in Japan well i really dont blame ur friend. that person is a katana cultist forcing his religion on others. we must live the way of the samurai????? wtf?????
+Duksing Chau I will say this much the code of Bushido certainly has good morals to live by that doesn't mean you abandon all logical thinking or ignore the limitations weapons and the fighting styles and techniques used with said weapons.
+Calvin in Japan I'm practicing Kendo atm too, I live in Portugal and we do it like you do it in Japan, we take it easy. I don't know if it's just my club or not, but the Kendo people here are awesome, funny and nice, even when we're training we tend to laugh and make jokes and everything, there's still seriousness obviously but not like in Britain, as you've described it.
+lastswordfighter none Bushido didn't exist until long after the sword wielding samurai became an anachronism. In fact, the word bushido was not used at all in any existing literature until the Tokugawa shogunate, which was not only an era of peace, but an era in which gunpowder weapons made the traditional samurai mostly obsolete. What we consider "modern" bushido was mostly an invention of the Imperial Japanese to give a sort of bedrock for their militaristic ideology. There are plenty of historical accounts of samurai being complete jerks, being treacherous and greedy, and outlaw samurai were not at all uncommon. In feudal Japan, samurai could do more or less whatever they wanted, so long as it was done to someone of a lower social class than themselves. This is, of course, no different from European knights, although chivalry goes back farther than Bushido, it's important to understand that many (if not most) knights supplemented their income by taking hostages, so treating defeated enemies (at least those worth a ransom, like other knights and nobility) with at least a modicum of decency was as much a sound financial decision as anything. Regardless of if you were European or Japanese, if you were a peasant, the best you could expect from the warrior elite was a quick death.
It's the risk you face whenever you are debunking legends, especially when they are linked to nationalist pride. People can get very touchy, and often don't realize that debunking the legend does NOT mean belittling the real accomplishments, whether it be of a weapon or of a historic person. The katana's received a bit of a drubbing recently, but only because of it's overblown reputation over the last 30-40 years. It's still a good blade.
What gets frustrating is when people, in the course of properly debunking myth, fall to the temptation of ACTUALLY starting to belittle the real thing. It's very easy to lose the truth in a giant sweep from one extreme opinion to the opposite extreme.
***** Well, two things. Firstly, I'm not meaning to point fingers at anybody commenting around here. (Nor at Mike, for that matter.) It's just a trend I've seen around forums and other places for the reaction to "X IS THE BEST Y EVER" to slip past "X was pretty good at Y, but not the be- and end-all of it" and go straight into "X IS THE WORST Y EVER". Seeecondly a katana isn't really a "dueling saber made to fight against other dueling sabers"; the idea that the katana was designed specifically for peacetime dueling is just as much a modern myth as the idea that you could bisect a fully armored knight with one using a simple vertical slash is. It was designed as a basic infantryman's sword, something smaller than a tachi that's easier to get out quick when one is on foot. That's...really all it is, just a Japanese arming sword originally meant to be used by common footsloggers, but adopted by samurai when the military zeitgeist began favoring long spears on foot and firearms instead of horse archery. Dueling use came later, since the traits that made it a fairly convenient sword for an infantry grunt made it also pretty convenient to carry around for personal defense during peacetime.
Certainly continue to enjoy your thorough and unbiased approach... I do like the depth as well in the snippets of information and especially the information to further consult on my own. All the VERY BEST! as always. -Tony
At first I thought you were going to "bash" on the katana like other sword enthusiasts on RUclips do but I was pleasantly surprised. Also no one I've ever talked to about katana have given the sword or swordsmanship mystical qualities. Whenever someone brings up the katana in other sword related channels they're met with insults and scrutiny "how dare you bring up the katana and compare it to other swords! you think its magical!". Great video.
Let me stop you there. It may be less scientific but I've seem credible videos of katana cutting through steel objects with no damage to the blade. Can it cut through the barrel of a machine gun? Probably not.
Fuq Gooogle To put it simply, the steel the original swords are made of is not better than modern steel, but I wouldn't say it was worse either. Modern steel, depending on it's application is VERY homogenous, few if any inclusions that would reduce it's strength and so a steel you would use to make a sword today is guaranteed to be top quality. That said the steel that was made by the Japanese and other sword making cultures was extremely good, especially considering how they made it, very very close to being as good as modern steel but it required a lot of time, effort and resources to make and so it was very expensive at the time. Additionally, the folds in a blade actually have nothing to do with the blade itself unless you're talking about pattern welding, it's a process to work impurities out of the steel before forging the blade and to get 1,000 layers you only need to fold the steel 10 times (Really, try it in a calculator, 1 becomes 2 layers, becomes 4, becomes 8 and so on, goes even faster when you start out with several pieces of metal instead of just one), any more than that and you're really just wasting fuel at the forge. To fold a piece of steel 1,000 times is ridiculous, but to have 1,000 layers is easy. Lastly, modern gun barrels designed to tolerate smokeless powder are made of alloy steel, you are NOT going to be able to harm one of these barrels, your sword will take a LOT more damage than the barrel would so I would recommend cutting or stabbing the person instead of the gun. Now a black powder barrel is made from soft metals, especially original barrels which were usually made of iron rather than steel. These softer barrels could be dented and bent by a reasonable blow, but then you are guaranteed to take the edge off your sword, even chip the edge if you're unlucky, so a again, it's always better to just go after the one holding the gun.
standingunder Both, if a modern sword is made using traditional techniques the impurities in the steel will need to be worked out by folding and forge welding the steel to make it homogenous before forging the blade. However if the sword is made using steel from a modern factory, the steel is already homogeneous and this process is unnecessary. Keep in mind that I'm not referring to the lamination of the blade using several types of steel but the treatment of that steel before it is forged into a blade by the swordsmith.
***** Ok cool. I though you were saying there was no reason for folding, for instance, tamahagane. Which, as you've pointed out, there is. Just makin sure.
I would very much like to hear you read a long passage from that book on any subject and reflect on it extensively. I find this sort of first hand historical accounts fascinating; even those that may need grain or two of salt added, out of bravado and hegemonic bias.
you've really taught me a lot about weapons and things of the nature, i found a long sword hema club in atlanta georgia, looking forward to having some fun. thanks man and keep up the good work
thank you ! I had bought that book because you recommended it why I enjoyed it very much I had no idea though it contain Japanese swordsmen references I mainly focused on the Sudan war source and all.
There are several accounts between portuguese sailors and the samurai in the 16th century. One account that i find very interesting is about one portuguese captain had to fight a duel in tanegashima, because one of his sailors was drunk and stired some trouble. In the duel, it is account that he defeated the samurai with ease, using his colhona, a portuguese sword made of iberian steel and painted black with a huge hand gaurd. A common sword used by the portuguese sailors at the time. This type of sword was similar to a rapier, but a bit longer, with the portuguese / spanish steel wich was very regarded, it had two big sided hand guards with the purpose to incapacitate the enemey sword and it was painted black so it would not reflect the sun while on board a ship. There are other historical accounts in the Torre do Tombo (Tomb Tower) in Lisbon, Portugal. These are the originals accounts from the 16th century.
@Michael Terrell II not quite. The record says that he fought in a duel, with his sword. But feel free to check that account, it is a 16th century record made by Damião de Gois.
@Michael Terrell II all accounts during any age are taken in account depending on who wrote them. Since Damião de Gois is a well renowned historian during that time, his accounts are taken seriously. As such, historians do take his tells as true. Be mindfull that the interpretation of the language used in that time, must be taken as a factor, as he wrote that the portuguese captain used 3 strokes to take the japanese samurai down.
@Michael Terrell II there are other accounts, one like a portuguese nau being assaulted by japanese pirates, and that they repelled the atack with only 2 losses. But guns were used. Still, the portuguese sailors commonly used the colhona or crab sword, on wich they were trained by the portuguese fencing. I can advise a book writen by a german historian, wich tells alot of the portuguese in the age of discovery. In this book, there several episodes of the portuguese, such as the sieges of Diu, and the incursions in the Indian ocean. The book is called "Men, Swords and Balls" www.wook.pt/livro/homens-espadas-e-tomates-rainer-daehnhardt/8288630
There are however plenty of historical Japanese accounts of Japanese swords breaking in half upon striking something with the spine (mune) of the blade.
That's an interesting fact about Japanese swordsmen being used as hired fighters and being involved in piracy in and around southeast Asia. I always think of Japan at that time as being so isolated and insular. It seems funny to picture Europeans encountering them in say Thailand.
Just a short anecdote. I was selling a Wilkinson poignard to an auction representative whose specialty is edged weapons. He told me of dismantling a katana to restore it. On the part of the blade metal hidden normally by the handle was inscribed some Japanese that he had interpreted: "One blow. Two bodies." It was the sword makers stamp of quality, so to speak. Anyone familiar with katanas of the previous centuries would know they tested the blades on corpses of prisoners. Gave him chills to be holding that sword at that moment.
Your comment about the Japanese working as mercenary soldiers outside of Japan reminded me of a historic event. In the early 17th century the Dutch were strengthening their monopoly in the trade in nutmeg by strengthening their rule on the spice islands. They trumped up some charges on the village elders and they were all executed by hired Japanese mercenaries. When I first heard about this I was amazed, but it made sense. They were trained soldiers, but their home nation was stable. So there was not much demand for their skills back home. But outside the shores of Japan there would be far more coin that could be earned. Either way the event might be worth looking into by someone interested in historic accounts of Japanese soldiers. Because the Dutch East India Company were strict on administration and writing things down.
scholagladiatoria First great job on your channel from a regular customer. In many eastern martial arts you often find spiritual/philosophical teachings. HEMA seems to be more on more technical side, i.e. you don't hear so much about those aspects (maybe there isn't much?). Maybe you could talk about that a bit? Cheers!
It might be that some of the accounts are of high end katanas which may be fewer in number and thus not indicative of the common blade, such as that sword which chipped.
@Michael Terrell II I think I was saying that you can't make a broad conclusion about the quality of old katanas from historical accounts alone. Dunno was years ago, forgot what the video is even about.
Katanas are great swords, but they are just swords. The main problem with Japanese swords is, that they did not evolve with the times. Like most other swords they were good at what they were originally supposed to do, but while in Europe specializations took place from rapiers for duels, sabres for cavalry, cutlasses for sea battles, etc, Japanese swords remained basically the same. Okay, there were tanto, kodachi, tachi, and nodachi, but these were all very traditional forms, mostly varying in length and thus usage. It was the form dictating the usage, not vice versa. While in Europe and in the Near East, you did not only have a much wider variety of blade forms, constantly re-inspiring one another, you also had a development in hand guards, and a sword is more than its blade. Japanese were masters in creating the best weapons from quite mediocre iron. Europeans had a far easier time, having much better quality iron and coal for steel smelting at their disposal. Thinking that better raw materials would lead to worse weapons is just ludicrous. The main advantage of samurai versus western militia would have been, that samurai basically still were a warrior caste, trained from early use in swordsmanship, just like european knights, who had ceased to serve that function.
The figure of the samurai, is wrapped in an aura of legend that shows how this men was nearly impossible to defeat. But these fighters not only were not invincible, were defeated by the Spanish Armada in 1580. This uknown episode in the history, occurred when the Spanish governor in the Philippines heard about the arrival of a strong contingent of Japanese pirates who were harassing and plundering the indigenous fipipinos in the province of Luzon. After several battles in Cagayan, both on land and sea, the spanish forces managed to defeat and expel Philippines to the japanese. Since then the samurai called spanish marines "wo-cou" (fish-lizard). For more information, please, consult the internet "wo-cou" and "Cagayan". Personally, i practice historical fencing from a year, but i have trained for a years kendo, iaido, ninjitsu, shooting sports(IPSC) and sport fencing, when I was young, and the combat effectiveness of european weapons and martial arts is much higher than that of the samurai.
I Know but the disproportion of these battles leaves little doubt about the effectiveness of weapons and techniques of European combat. If you know some of these combats, who gave them problems to Spanish marines are the ashigaru (musketeers) who killed first. Remenber that european musketeers carry the "12 apostles", 12 loads for his gun, and fire a shot for minute, if were proficient, up to 12. So i think certainly the battle was decided more by the steel by lead. Greetings and hope you find interesting my view.
Of course, what you say it's absolutely true. The Art of War includes many activities, all complementary. Thanks you very much for your comments, always timely and accurate.
It sounds like the Japanese fighting style is very explosive and aggressive and duels don't last long. This explains why the handguard on Japanese swords is very undeveloped.
Actually... the tsuba, much like the parts of any functional weapon, isn't there in vain. Though sometimes considerably decorative, it kept moisture and such out of the saya and additionally kept the hand off the blade when thrusting. It's "underdeveloped" because that's not what it was for.
Use of the Tsuba depends on the school, much like European Longsword systems vary. Some may not rely on it much, while some Iai or Kenjutsu lineages may prefer bigger and thicker Tsubas for increased usage of locking, striking & blocking. And there's not all that much difference in the protective qualities of a medieval style cross-hilt and a disc guard. A lot of Italian Longsword schools don't rely on cross guards a lot either.
Regarding the saber vs katana quote, it could be absolutely correct. The edge was very hard, while the rest of the blade was softer, to support the edge, and make sure it didn't snap.
have you covered takedowns and throws in european manuals? any difference to the japanese ones? I figured since the throws and trips moreso survived in japan via Jujutsu and judo and are still being used today? somewhat tweaked today for sport use of course (and we can still see them being utilized in MMA today) but when doing kata in judo you still do them pretty traditionally and the movement you defend are quite often sword attacks
Interesting that the strike from the draw mentioned in the account was an upwards stroke; I wouldn't even count myself as a layman, but the little bit of kenjutsu I've looked into had two such draws, one was horizontal and the other diagonal ending in the top right (drawing from the left hip) - my thoughts on trying both numerous times was that the diagonal (which I can easily see being described as upwards) was both the easier and more effective strike. Maybe someone with some actual experience in the matter can correct me, but that my appraisal appears to match with historical anecdotes may suggest that the diagonal draw was more common than the horizontal (though the diagonal does appear to leave you more open to a reply).
I am fairly certain that the strike you are describing as diagonal is the one described as upwards in the account, a lot of strikes which are considered upwards or downwards are often diagonal.
The edge is both one of the strengths and one of the main weaknesses of the Katana. Yeah, it is sharp as shit and when cutting predomintly cloth/leather armor like the Japanese used before European contact, its works excellently. But as soon as you take that edge to European mail and plate style armors, the edge is just far too thin and more importantly, too hard to come away unscathed. And then the work to fix all those knicks and chips is horrendous. Simply put, the Katana is a fantastic sword, especially IN ITS OWN CONTEXT. European swords were designed to meet the challenges of the European battle field, just like the katana. As you have pointed out, there is and cannot be a do all sword.
I've long thought a good comparison, would be saying a katana (or uchigatana anyone, I believe katana just translates as sword or knife, much like dao and messer) is like a Ferrari, and a European sword is like a Land Rover.
+김영범 I read somewhere that Koreans weapons were mostly identical to the Chinese due to cultural assimilation etc. Even the nobles wore almost similar stuff
Hey Matt. Just wondered if you are aware of a Japanese school of fighting called Katori Shinto Ryu? It's an excellent source of historical Japanese martial arts (dating from the Sengoku era) and is a school that still exists. I've had some training with Japanese swords and I think they're superb (although I'm still very much a novice), but like any weapon they evolved around a specific purpose and context, as you've said in previous videos. Anyone who believes they're some kind of super weapon clearly has anime-tinted-goggles on!
Great video. Do you have knowledge on Chinese weapons and combat. I know most kung fu schools have made their sword fighting more of an art and have lost a lot of the practical uses.
Even the chinese don't know much about the art (yes, including all the charlatan monks, shifus, circus acts, etc...) I don't think any real applicable art survived. Most engineering, technical and martial art manuals/tomes were burned in order to prevent Han Chinese rebellion when the Qing Manchus took over.
Japanese swords sold as mementos and souvenirs are notoriously shitty quality. There was a similar phenomenon during WW2 when all japanese then american soldiers were trying to get their hands on katanas, but what they got were lumps of supposedly sharpened steel made in ways a decent asian smith would rather burst into tears than use to make his own weapons.
The US army confiscated and destroyed every katana they could lay their hands on after the Japanese surrender. These not only included all military swords but also priceless antiques. Some escaped the furnaces in soldiers' (officers mainly) luggage and some were successfully hidden to emerge later. These are all we have left which really makes it difficult to make any firm conclusions about the overall quality of Japanese swords. The sample is just too small.
+Gerry Edwards Certainly. But I was referring to souvenirs made as such and sold as such. They were usually mass-produced and built very hastily with whatever was available. I am pretty confident George S. Patton and his pearl-gripped SAA had a bit more money to spare than your run-on-the-mill foot soldier, and a lot of them were able to take (or sneak) a sword back home. Also, you make the distinction between military Gunto and priceless antiques, and you are absolutely right 99.99% of the time, but a very select few carried said antiques as military insignia ( an excellent example is general Tomoyuki Yamashita who carried a 17th century Kanenaga and gave it up to gen. McArthur - the sword ended up at West Point museum)
+badr selfaoui Sorry if I seemed as though I was disagreeing with you. I was just mentioning the destruction because it's a thing that comes to mind whenever katanas and ww2 come up. When I found out about it I almost wept at the waste. You're spot on as far as I've seen. Some ww2 katanas with genuine, or rather totally consistent, arsenal markings are definitely of inferior quality. Probably these were forged later on in the war when Japan's access to steel was so drastically affected by the military reversals it suffered and the mounting losses in merchant shipping. You can pick these up for not much dosh, but you do still see the odd example of antique blades with ww2 fittings. I saw a lovely naval officer's sword recently. I don't know anything about the swords picked up by the large numbers of US servicemen station in Japan post war as souvenirs or 'trophies' but I can easily imagine that they were all after one and also that any that were available to the average soldier would hardly be likely to be quality swords.
+Gerry Edwards Indeed! I may have been too harsh, sorry. The thing is, Japan had widely adopted the use of bayonets, and most people just wanted to imitate their superiors (the likes of Yamashita for example). In fact, until WW2, there were still quite some antique katana in circulation, but they were usually kept by families as heirlooms, and acquiring one was out of the question for an ordinary soldier. And speaking of this, I read an anecdote of the utmost peculiarity (alright, maybe that's too much): Nobuo Fujita, a Japanese naval pilot who bombed Oregon during WW2 and later said he was ashamed of his acts. He was invited to Brookings (a town he'd bombed) and brought along his family's 400 y.o katana to commit seppuku in case he was met with hostility. He wa sin fact warmly welcomed and so gave the blade to the city. He also planted a tree at the bomb site, was made a honorary citizen, and his daughter even buried some of his ashes there. That, sir, is a soldier.
+badr selfaoui I can't remember who said it, or how they put it exactly, but something about peace requiring more courage than war.... nope can't think.... point was that it seems like less of a cliché in light of stories like that. It's one thing feeling guilt over something and quite another to actually actually go and apologise for it in person. A different sort of courage maybe, but no less humbling. The 70th anniversary showed just how much importance is still attached by China to the subject of apologies. It's all a sad business and may yet lead to more conflict, with Japan's current perceived abandonment of their post-war pacifist doctrine. Current events are so much easier to understand when you learn the history that gave rise to them. It never ceases to surprise me that many folks have no interest in history.
I love all kinds of swords, but i think that is difficult to compare japanese swords with european swords, sabres or cutlasses because the techniques to using them is very different... Nice videos anyway mate... subscribing in 3..2..1...
I have a question. As a dutchman, I am really interested in my own country and its heritage. Now I know that the netherlands as such wasn't around untill 17 something (perhaps 16) And that "we" aren't mentioned in medieval warfare much. But are there typical Dutch weapons? And I will go ahead and say that the goedendag is a belgian weapon (if that is any difference?) So I ask, are there any dutch melee weapons that are truly of the european mainland. So not the imported weapons from asia and such? I hope I don't ask to much.
As someone who has done Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai this was a great video Matt. Do you know where one can find first hand accounts of Japanese swordsmanship? At least stuff that has been translated to English?
Any accounts of those European soldiers fencing against Japanese swordsmen, and what is your opinion on the effectiveness of kenjutsu when pitted against saber or cutlass? Saber and cutlass would be the European forms most likely to have been encountered in a historical context and are not as thrust oriented as other forms. Also kenjutsu does utilize thrusts, they just tend to be delivered from the centerline of the body rather than from a ventral lunge.
The difficulty many Europeans have with Asian accounts of warriors is that they are unable to separate the fairy tales from fact. Asian accounts tend to be replete with stories of magic which are not taken seriously within an Asian context whereas us Europeans tend to swallow the fairy tales hook line and sinker as our historical accounts do not tend to have hagiographies so we wrongly read the Asian accounts as fact.
Enlightenment on Japanese samurai by the way l like the mutton chops your wearing Matt. Possibly a European swordsman who should have carried the beautiful Arn sword made by Albion Armories.!
Great video, I really like the subject! Just out of curiosity, do you know of any accounts abot okinawan martial arts seen by westerners or applied in bouts/brawls and recorded by westerners? Thanks a lot! And BTW got the book you showed in my list :D Cheers from Napoli! Davide
Do I remember reading that many of the archetypal 'ninja' weapons, kasurigama and the long flail thingy among others, originated in Okinawan martial arts? Farm implements originally, but used to great effect against samurai and their retinue from the Home Islands.
I honestly do not know if the kusarigama as seen and used in mailna d Japan originates in Okinawa. The kama are used in Okinawan kobud in pairs, but without a a chain. Other than the regular kama the chogama, a kama blade ounted over a bo is also used. Unfortunately evidences on farm tools used against samurai weapons are rare. Nonetheless just yesterday a saw a very old picture of a jigen ryu kenjutsuka pitted against a bojutsuka of one of the ancient okinawan bojutsu ryuu. an intersting topic indeed, I regret not having the time to research in depth :(
I heard somewhere that the Katana was a very good thrusting weapon, and here you state they didn't teach thrusting. It's also been my understanding that single edged curved weapons were not designed/are inferior for thrusting. Thoughts? Thanks.
Good food for thought in this video. I wonder if there are any Japanese accounts of European swordsmanship. It's always been my understanding that Japan was fairly isolated until the mid to late 19th century. As such, I would imagine they might be considerably rarer, but I'd like to see some, if they exist. If they took a favorable attitude towards European styles and weapons, it might well lay to rest much of the debate about which was "better." Personally, I take the opinion that the Japanese sword is a fantastic solution to the problem of relatively poor and/or rare raw materials, and that given those materials, the fact that they managed to produce a sword as good as they did is quite impressive. Their swordsmanship simply seems to me to have been developed to enhance and compliment the best characteristics of that weapon. But what do I know?
It would be interesitng ot know what the Porteguese thoughts on the subject frm back in the 16th century. Also, what the Chinese thought of Japanese swords ad sword techniques.
The Ming accounts in modern literature tend to be somewhat ret-conned to create a mythos for certain weapons (especially the Miao Dao), a common problem in CMA history. In more modern times we know that Liu Yun Qiao defeated a Kenjutsu master in a duel in Tianjin in the 20s armed with a Jian (Kindof a double edged spadroon if you're not familiar with Chinese swords) which conventional wisdom would state is a less potent weapon. We know that the swords themselves were prized after the first Sino-Japanese war, but that the early encounters between Katana and Dadao in the second Sino-Japanese war were so disastrous for the Japanese that they completely overhauled their training.
Sifuben Thank you for all the information. It might be that the Japanese at this point were no longer taking sword training as seriously. But as for previous centuries who knows. Funny though how not many people pay attention to Chinese swords and sword techniques. Shame really.
This does not really address swords that much but Noel Perrin's book "Giving Up the Gun" offers the following quote regarding the invasion by Hideyoshi. (Page 35) "That war occurred from their point of view, during the Ming Dynasty; and the official dynastic history summarizes the fighting in these words:" "The invasion by the Kampaku (Lord Hideyoshi) lasted nearly seven years. Causalities in the war exceeded many hundred thousand... Though Korea and China fought hand in hand, they had no change of victory. Only the death of the Kampaku brought the calamities of warfare to an end"
I agree with this i by no means have much knowledge about swords or practice with them sadly though i do have a large interest in them. I just wanted to say well it is all good fun to have the fantasy "lightning fast" sword fighting and ect ect in real-life yea swordsmanship (from what i have seen) have a lot of similar things to them though of course some differences as you said as well.
In china japanese swords and swordmanship is also highly regarded through history. and in my experience, the traditional japanese swords tend to chip when encounter heavy edge to edge impact. its not supprising for a edge as hard as 60 HRC in hardness. but it doesn't mean you cannot use it for edge to edge contact. the blade may chip but very hard to break. a low carbon core inside the blade usually pervent any kind of breaking. when come to kill, a chipped blade has little difference with an undamaged one.
Are there any Portuguese accounts of Japanese swordsmanship from their first encounters with the Japanese in the 16th century? Also, while the (in my opinion ridiculous) question of how a fight between a knight and samurai would fare is far too commonly asked, I've never heard anyone asking about a civilian duel between a rapier or side-sword wielder and an edo-period samurai. Obviously the level of training between civilians would differ far more than the training of soldiers, but I think it could be an interesting question nevertheless.
Closest thing I can think of, is battle between Japanese and European (Portugese IIRC) pirates. Japanese boarding party was dealt with swiftly, though Portugese advantage didn't come from superior swordsmanship as much as use of bucklers.
kireta21 I can see that; a small shield usable in the tight quarters of a ship would be a huge advantage. I wasn't aware that European pirates ventured that far or had much activity in East Asia. I guess where trade goes enterprising thieves follow.
I think it's more because Japanese were unlikely to face such weapon before, and because of that were simply unable to deal with it. Shield is easy to understand, but buckler is all about active defense and can be easily used as secondary weapon. It's just like mentioned Japanese-style draw cut: extremely dangerous to opponent not familiar with it.
I think it was common in medieval times for military to encounter, and recruit into their military, skilled warriors from wherever they could be found, and afforded. For example: The crossbow was changed to a recurve bow because it allowed a shorter (smaller) bow with just as much power as the longbow based crossbow but in a smaller package. Just one example of co-opting foreign technology.... I wonder if medieval Europeans ever met Japanese swordsmen and how such would affect martial skills.... Either way, thank you for the video and your opinion!
As many of these accounts come from a time when swordsmanship was (compared to still feudal japan) a less practiced art. Along with the relative prominence of Iai would have perhaps created the impression of speed greater than a comparable European sword making the same moves.
I have a collection of culinary knives and chisels from my travels in japan. The quality of these “samurai forge “ traditional blades is pretty wide. Some have such a brittle and poor quality white steel core. They chip easily, while the higher quality blades are amazing. Guess what? All my lower quality blades came from sellers aimed at visitors while most of my quality blades came from insider connected retailers with local reputation. I suspect times aren’t that different today than 150 years ago. Cheers.
what is the earliest account you have found of Europeans speaking of Japanese swords or swordsmanship? we know Europeans were there before the banning of the 'barbarians' and then again later, but were any encounters, as witnesses or actual fights from earlier than the quotes listed in the vid?
I have been practicing Japanese martial arts for a number of years and i love my katana but i also love my hand and a half sword as well. I never think that you bash on Japanese swords or swordsmanship what people in the world must realise that its not only the sword but makes a good sword but the actual swordsman. You could have the best sword in the world and have a amateur use it and would be a crap sword. What is a sword without an arm that wields it nothing but steel.
Another example for context, altough it has to be considered as a whole regarding the different tactics and general flow of the battle, not only for swordmanship. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles
Kenjistu, jujitsu and aikido revolve around the same base philosophies in using momentum and footwork to essentially minimize excess energy and maximize efficiency. And the quality of the blade is dependent on the smith in person just like you can’t say which is better ‘knight’ or ‘samurai’ it all depends on the warriors in question.
A Shotgun can cut a Katana in half :D Sorry, love my shotgun. Interesting video. Love Japanese swords but don't think they were the best. I think the best probably depends upon who's wielding it and for what purpose. I think I'd rather have a rapier to duel with than a katana but I'm pretty sure I'd look much cooler with a Katana :D
The reason why there is so much japanese sword / swordsmanship praising in the internet is that there is a lot of people in the internet that play japanese/asian games all day,watch anime,read mangas and have an obsesion with their culture thinking its "more cool"besides the samurai has an aura of mistery that makes people like to think they were better warriors.
Sounds more like a training and diligence thing than a sword quality thing. It was probably the best way to deal with the iron they had at the time and they do look exquisite. I think I read somewhere that in practice European and Japanese swordsmanship was not wholly dissimilar.
Personally I feel that the sword they tested against Wilkinson saber might have been quite good. Differential hardening may have lots of virtues, but t it produces a blade which can potentially chip and bend, both at the same time.
i have always found the meigi era of japan fascinating. Do you suppose the mysticism of japanese sword play may have come from its unique unfamiliar use from the perspective of the western swordsman? And perhaps its this view point that has so heavily colored pop culture today?
On the one negative account of the katana odds are it actually WAS a bad quality sword that was sold to them as a good sword wouldn't have been sold to someone who hadn't practiced the Japanese sword styles especially if they weren't Japanese. another similar case of this would be colonial north America where colonists would sell muskets to native Americans to hunt with, but they would be very low quality and as such would not begin to compare with the muskets the Europeans had.
It makes good sense that a katana would chip where a sabre would not. The steel at the edge of a katana is differentiated from the rest of the blade; harder and more brittle. Edge to edge contact between the two weapons could be expected to damage the katana regardless of how the sabre fared.
Many years ago, a friend asserted that the Portuguese who first encountered the Japanese in the 1500's and used rapiers, were not impressed with Japanese swordsmanship or their weapons. He's never been able to show me documentation for this though. But it is an interesting subject. How would a Katana - Rapier duel turn out?
dkeith45 Actually, according to books that I lost access to several years ago, Miyamoto Musashi's niten'ichi (2-sword technique) was developed from his observations of other samurai dueling with Portuguese traders - who fenced with rapier and main-gauche, and usually won the duel. Unfortunately, I can't document it either, though I came across this story from many sources. (I drastically trimmed my personal library a few years ago, and I no longer have access to the stacks of the Widener Memorial Library, etc.) If you put - Musashi Miyamoto/Portuguese sailors - into google, you'll find indications that a lot of people have heard of this. (That doesn't actually prove anything, but to be fair, it isn't possible to prove anything 400 years later) However, having studied many forms of fencing over the years (including Kendo and Florentine-style), I really don't see any reason to doubt it...
What made samurai so proficient is what made Spartans to be held in such high regard as well - they were raised and taught as warriors all their lives, they dedicated themselves to war and to their masters. As any person dedicating themselves to one set of skills over the whole course of their lives, specially with Japanese discipline involved, of course you get to be an outstanding warrior, there's no way you can be bad at what you dedicated your whole life to.
+Fabricio Nogueira Knights typically began training in early adolescence. What do you think squires are? Nearly every society's warrior class began training early.
The jist of it is the katana gets exaggerated but is still pretty good, the long sword is in fact almost as fast and about the same weight and not at all slow, rapiers don't break easy, but aren't much fast when used than any other sword, sabers are more durable than usually believed but still inferior, save as a calvary weapons, and people don't do their research like this guy has done with his good videos. :) Ultimately, the user and the quality of how it is made and what circumstance defines the battle.
I just love the craftsmanship of Japanese swords. Not to take anything away from European smithing, of course, or suggest that somehow the smithing process of a katana of No Dachi make them 'superior'; I just adore the aesthetic of the end product. It is as much an expression of art, with steel the medium, as much as it is a weapon (and was treated as such, as I understand it, back in the relevant time period).
Not sure if this has been mentioned but there is an interesting account from 1610 where the Captain of the Portuguese ship Nossa Senhora de Graca killed several samurai in blade to blade combat while he was armed with a shield and rapier.
Per wikipedia Portuguese explorers arrived in Japan in 1543. Does anybody know of any accounts of Japanese vs. European swordsmen from the 16th or 17th centuries?
Do you reckon there is any possibility of a sort of mystification of certain eastern Swords and Swordsmanship even back then? Not to deny the sources or what they are saying it is just something I've always thought about.
Maybe, but both the Japanese and Indians still had strong swordsmanship traditions, at a time when most other places had let hand to hand combat skills decline in favour of greater use of firearms.
There is a lovely advertisement on The Project Gutenberg website called "Japanese Swords" by Anonymous. The title page has this JAPANESE SWORDS YAMANAKA & CO. 127, New Bond Street, London. April, 1913. And the author very briefly points out how deadly the Japanese sword blades are compared to European swords. It's a quick overview of Japanese sword blade terminlogy and it contains a nice catalog of blades and their sizes in both Japanese measurement (Shaku, Sun, Bu) and Metric measurement for each of the blades that are pictured. It's on;y about 2 pages long. Here's a link: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41321
Juan Gonzalez Great stuff, thanks for sharing. Nice source. There is also at least one circa 1900 European self defence manual that recommends wakizashi for home/personal defence.
Same thing with many people and religion. People like, for example, christianity, they just dont like its die hard fanatics (And this is a franciscan/jesuit speaking)
In 1905, Japanese admiral Togo sent letter to Russian admiral Rozenstvenko (near Vladivostok). He asked for one Russian to come for a duel with his samurai in front of both armies... To shorten this, Captain Saicic of Montenegro decapitated this samurai... His saber from this duel is now at the Military Museum in Moscow. After this, his friends started to call him “Muromec of the new age”.
Nicely said IMO I have experience and training with Japanese swords as well as martial arts.. and from what I was taught (by my sensai's sensai) was the swords sold to the Europeans were generally "junk" by low end apprentices. Not the same quality as what I have been lucky enough to work with.
Summarized: Japanese swords were a highly effective weapon and Japanese fighting styles were praiseworthy... but were not a fucking magic wand.
+PsyckoSama Not even when wielded by mutated teenaged turtles?
I tried that and it didn't work, but maybe that's because I'm not a sorcerer XD
Exactly. It's better than a magic wand.
PsyckoSama katana v. War sword.... Katanas get bent and stay bent. European sword MAY have a nik in the edge.... Maybe.
Yup
Even though I studied kendo for years and really really like katanas, I must admit that most of katana's original appeal comes from its highly aesthetic form(that is related to trhe general minimalistic aesthetism of feudal Japan) and the aura of "exoticism" from the perception of Westerners that made this particular sword famous worldwide. It is just another form of the same old Orientalism, a version that deals especially with "mystic" South East Asia. On the surface level, this version of Orientalism looks like it has a highly romanticised positive bias against anything "Asian", so katana becomes the "super-sword" and samurai becomes the "sıuper-warrior" clichés.
Short answer - movies - lol
shanes channel Nah, you saw it happening before movies were a thing.
Graidon Mabson I imagine the fact that many soldiers were confronted by them in WW2 played a part as well.
shanes channel In a real life duel, the katana wielder would not last a minute against a rapier...
Any culture different from one's own can seem "exotic" at first glance. For a lot of outsiders, America is incredibly glamorous and wonderful and fascinating, but that doesn't make them racist against American, does it? This is just normal human thinking.
The attitude to Asian martial arts +rasnac is complaining about stem from martial arts movies, which of course deliberately showed such things as powerful and magical. So in that regard, the movies did what they meant to do.
Anyone who starts from an attitude of distant admiration but then goes on to seriously investigate a new culture will gain a much more balanced understanding, as I'm sure many older weeaboos can attest. ;)
Another note on the katana: When you hit a hard object like wood or other sword hard enough, you can bend the katana and it STAYS bent like that. And the edge DOES chip in contact with another sword (like arming sword for example). Which doesn't mean the katana is crap. They just never used it in mass armored combat. European swords were made to take a beating and to find gaps in armor, their swords were used on little to no armor equipped opponents and the sword is PERFECT for that. It is super sharp and rigid enough to retain edge alignment during a cut.
Bent and chipped katanas can be see in some historic Japanese paintings, confirming that even they encountered those issues.
Which is why samurais used katana as sidearm
kampusmampus No, katana was used as a sidearm because it is a sidearm. Even if it does not bend or chip it will still not be as effective as a spear.
Boodgemeister Except that they were used against heavy armor. Japanese already had heavy lamellar armor early on in the 9th-11th century (albeit less protective and specialized for horseback), and Katanas started becoming popular during the 14th ~ 16th century, when Japanese armor started becoming more developed and protective. A lot of the 16th century Japanese swords were very durable and robust, with reinforced tips and significant blades to be optimized in armor-rich battlefields. Dotanuki swords are a good example.
And while differential methods may have its disadvantages, (stays bent), it does bring other advantages that a springy/soft blade doesn't have. It's harder to break than a springy/soft blade, and it holds its edges for longer. In medieval battlefields where weapon breakage may have been a big concern, differential methods are solid methods.
Just curious, are there any accounts of European swordsmenship from Japanese primary sources?
+dboyzero Yes, but I cannot read Japanese and I do not know of any good translations. There were many encounters between Portugese, Spanish, Dutch and English swordsmen and Japanese.
+scholagladiatoria I understand Japanese well. Can you post a link to these sources?
+Maikeru Sazarando I would love to see the result.
The National Museum of the Philippines, in Manila, have a small colection of Tsubas from a spanish galeon shipwreck of the XVI century. They believe these tsuba belonged to japanese samurai mercenaries who were part of the ship's crew.
Japanese and Chinese iron are bad quality. The Katana complex manufacture, thus, aims to improve the quality of their blade as much as possible. On the whole, katanas can cut any material ranging between cloth fabric and wood.
During the ages, hundreds of kenjutsu styles were developed throughout the territory. Each style has its own characteristics of cuts, positions etc. Some styles (like Muso styles) avoid any direct contact between blades to prevent damage. Some other styles allow contacts between blades. In this last case, it will be necessary to re-sharp the blade after its use.
Some Spanish sources claim that Miyamoto Musashi's two handed kenjutsu style was inspired after watching a duel between Iberian soldiers handling both rapier and dagger.
In either case, it was not by chance that Portuguese, Spaniards, Dutch and Englishmen were not able to conquer Japan as they did to other territories of Asia (China, Indonesia and the Philippines), even if Japan was amidst a bloody civil war that lasted for more than a hundred years (Sengoku jidai). If Japanese warriors were weaker than western soldiers they would have indeed been conquered by foreign powers as their neighboors did.
+Pedro Paulo Guilhardi I don't remember China being conquered in the Sengoku Jidai... It happened in XIX century when the west had steam gunships.
Matt, forgive me if you've covered this somewhere else. I'll just point that wikipedia lists several samurai that traveled to europe in the late 16th-early 17th centuries. There apparently is at least one french account of Hasekura Tsunenaga waiting out some weather, and causing a stir in port: Copy pasted below
"Many picturesque details of their movements were recorded:
"They never touch food with their fingers, but instead use two small sticks that they hold with three fingers."
"They blow their noses in soft silky papers the size of a hand, which they never use twice, so that they throw them on the ground after usage, and they were delighted to see our people around them precipitate themselves to pick them up."
"Their swords cut so well that they can cut a soft paper just by putting it on the edge and by blowing on it."
("Relations of Mme de St Troppez", October 1615, Bibliothèque Inguimbertine, Carpentras)."
Just thought I'd mention =)
Just a few comments, some of which have been touched on before by other posters here.
There is an almost infinite variety in the quality of Nihonto ( Japanese blades), even during the periods of intense conflict. The average samurai was often armed with tabagatana (lit., bundle swords). These were of inferior quality, mass produced and sold in bundles (hence the name). The same can be said of Shingunto ( WWII era swords), perhaps more so, as they were made in greater numbers. At the bottom end, these blades were mass produced, oil quenched, and the temper line was merely acid etched to give the appearance of true differential tempering. At the other end were traditionally made blades, including Rikugun Jumei Tosho ( lit., Army Approved Swordsmith), and blades made at several of the Shinto Shrines. These were often of the highest quality. In between, there were many murato (lit., half forged sword) which ran the gamut from non-traditional manufacture with true differential tempering, to actual hand made blades with the steel derived from sources other than tamahagane (steel made from iron bearing sand). Reports on the quality of the Japanese sword, especially older reports, should be taken with a grain of salt, unless the writer was aware of the actual quality of the blade being tested. This is highly unlikely under the circumstances.
In regards to foreigners buying Japanese swords, the vast majority were just souvenir items made expressly for export. These are almost always of the lowest quality, not real swords at all but trinkets made to bilk the rubes. They were condescendingly refered to as "hochotetsu" (lit. kitchen steel), although even this is an exaggeration.
To make matters even more complicated, after the consolidation of the Tokugawa Shogunate in the early 17th Century, many sword makers began to produce highly artistic swords which, while still quite deadly, were oriented more as status symbols than weapons designed for extended combat. I have seen (and even owned) a number of these that were razor sharp, with intricate temper lines, but would not have held up to a protracted period of intense use.
The best swords foreigners are likely to encounter today ( by true Tosho) are designed for kabutogane (a competition in which plates of iron are cut). These are very expensive, however.
Lastly, during the Occupation of Japan at the end of WWII, Gen MacArthur's edict to round up and melt all Japanese swords was quickly retracted, due to complaints that national treasures were being destroyed. It is worth mentioning here that many of these swords were turned in to the first American soldier to arrive on the scene, and ended up in duffel bags headed back to the US. There are still about a dozen "meito" (lit., blade with a name), or national class treasures that have yet to be accounted for.
In the final analysis, the quality of the blade (in terms of its performance in combat), whether it be Japanese or European, is not as important as the skill of the user. The better swordsman has the advantage regardless of the blade he is armed with.
Ahh, this video reminded me of Dan Carlin and how he likes to portray history. You are basically giving me three things: an exact quotation from a historian (very enriching to hear it in their wording), a reference to the book/source, and of course the information itself.
Props to you!
So they have actually run out of arguments to the point where they are just calling you a hater, even though it's clear you love these subjects, probably more than they do based on their knowledge levels for something they love so much.
Sad.
"Curved ... swords " - guard of Skyrim.
"...drawring...". So many reasons to love this channel, the accent being just one. Excellent information. Absolutely love when you read these accounts. Must pick up that book ASAP.
don't listen to the crazy anime weeabu's
All Japanese martial arts suffer imo when they come over to the west because of the difference in culture. I'm doing kendo atm and living in Japan and want to carry on when I go back to England but everyone I've talked to in England takes it so bloody mystically. One of my friends noted how he just up and left the dojo when someone said in a kind of serine seriousness "we must live the way of the samurai". Here it's a casual sport like most others, people don't take practising that seriously. They're dedicated yea but none of that kind of mystical crap.
+Calvin in Japan well i really dont blame ur friend. that person is a katana cultist forcing his religion on others. we must live the way of the samurai????? wtf?????
+Duksing Chau I will say this much the code of Bushido certainly has good morals to live by that doesn't mean you abandon all logical thinking or ignore the limitations weapons and the fighting styles and techniques used with said weapons.
yeee
+Calvin in Japan I'm practicing Kendo atm too, I live in Portugal and we do it like you do it in Japan, we take it easy. I don't know if it's just my club or not, but the Kendo people here are awesome, funny and nice, even when we're training we tend to laugh and make jokes and everything, there's still seriousness obviously but not like in Britain, as you've described it.
+lastswordfighter none Bushido didn't exist until long after the sword wielding samurai became an anachronism. In fact, the word bushido was not used at all in any existing literature until the Tokugawa shogunate, which was not only an era of peace, but an era in which gunpowder weapons made the traditional samurai mostly obsolete. What we consider "modern" bushido was mostly an invention of the Imperial Japanese to give a sort of bedrock for their militaristic ideology.
There are plenty of historical accounts of samurai being complete jerks, being treacherous and greedy, and outlaw samurai were not at all uncommon. In feudal Japan, samurai could do more or less whatever they wanted, so long as it was done to someone of a lower social class than themselves.
This is, of course, no different from European knights, although chivalry goes back farther than Bushido, it's important to understand that many (if not most) knights supplemented their income by taking hostages, so treating defeated enemies (at least those worth a ransom, like other knights and nobility) with at least a modicum of decency was as much a sound financial decision as anything. Regardless of if you were European or Japanese, if you were a peasant, the best you could expect from the warrior elite was a quick death.
It's the risk you face whenever you are debunking legends, especially when they are linked to nationalist pride. People can get very touchy, and often don't realize that debunking the legend does NOT mean belittling the real accomplishments, whether it be of a weapon or of a historic person. The katana's received a bit of a drubbing recently, but only because of it's overblown reputation over the last 30-40 years. It's still a good blade.
What gets frustrating is when people, in the course of properly debunking myth, fall to the temptation of ACTUALLY starting to belittle the real thing. It's very easy to lose the truth in a giant sweep from one extreme opinion to the opposite extreme.
***** Well, two things. Firstly, I'm not meaning to point fingers at anybody commenting around here. (Nor at Mike, for that matter.) It's just a trend I've seen around forums and other places for the reaction to "X IS THE BEST Y EVER" to slip past "X was pretty good at Y, but not the be- and end-all of it" and go straight into "X IS THE WORST Y EVER".
Seeecondly a katana isn't really a "dueling saber made to fight against other dueling sabers"; the idea that the katana was designed specifically for peacetime dueling is just as much a modern myth as the idea that you could bisect a fully armored knight with one using a simple vertical slash is. It was designed as a basic infantryman's sword, something smaller than a tachi that's easier to get out quick when one is on foot. That's...really all it is, just a Japanese arming sword originally meant to be used by common footsloggers, but adopted by samurai when the military zeitgeist began favoring long spears on foot and firearms instead of horse archery. Dueling use came later, since the traits that made it a fairly convenient sword for an infantry grunt made it also pretty convenient to carry around for personal defense during peacetime.
Certainly continue to enjoy your thorough and unbiased approach... I do like the depth as well in the snippets of information and especially the information to further consult on my own. All the VERY BEST! as always. -Tony
At first I thought you were going to "bash" on the katana like other sword enthusiasts on RUclips do but I was pleasantly surprised. Also no one I've ever talked to about katana have given the sword or swordsmanship mystical qualities. Whenever someone brings up the katana in other sword related channels they're met with insults and scrutiny "how dare you bring up the katana and compare it to other swords! you think its magical!". Great video.
Let me stop you there. It may be less scientific but I've seem credible videos of katana cutting through steel objects with no damage to the blade. Can it cut through the barrel of a machine gun? Probably not.
Fuq Gooogle
To put it simply, the steel the original swords are made of is not better than modern steel, but I wouldn't say it was worse either. Modern steel, depending on it's application is VERY homogenous, few if any inclusions that would reduce it's strength and so a steel you would use to make a sword today is guaranteed to be top quality. That said the steel that was made by the Japanese and other sword making cultures was extremely good, especially considering how they made it, very very close to being as good as modern steel but it required a lot of time, effort and resources to make and so it was very expensive at the time.
Additionally, the folds in a blade actually have nothing to do with the blade itself unless you're talking about pattern welding, it's a process to work impurities out of the steel before forging the blade and to get 1,000 layers you only need to fold the steel 10 times (Really, try it in a calculator, 1 becomes 2 layers, becomes 4, becomes 8 and so on, goes even faster when you start out with several pieces of metal instead of just one), any more than that and you're really just wasting fuel at the forge. To fold a piece of steel 1,000 times is ridiculous, but to have 1,000 layers is easy.
Lastly, modern gun barrels designed to tolerate smokeless powder are made of alloy steel, you are NOT going to be able to harm one of these barrels, your sword will take a LOT more damage than the barrel would so I would recommend cutting or stabbing the person instead of the gun. Now a black powder barrel is made from soft metals, especially original barrels which were usually made of iron rather than steel. These softer barrels could be dented and bent by a reasonable blow, but then you are guaranteed to take the edge off your sword, even chip the edge if you're unlucky, so a again, it's always better to just go after the one holding the gun.
***** When addressing folding, are you referring to historically, or in modern replicas when you say it has nothing to do with the blade?
standingunder Both, if a modern sword is made using traditional techniques the impurities in the steel will need to be worked out by folding and forge welding the steel to make it homogenous before forging the blade.
However if the sword is made using steel from a modern factory, the steel is already homogeneous and this process is unnecessary.
Keep in mind that I'm not referring to the lamination of the blade using several types of steel but the treatment of that steel before it is forged into a blade by the swordsmith.
***** Ok cool. I though you were saying there was no reason for folding, for instance, tamahagane. Which, as you've pointed out, there is. Just makin sure.
What I love about your videos is that you are a scholar AND a practitioner AND a very effective divulgator. Thanks and keep up the good work!
I would very much like to hear you read a long passage from that book on any subject and reflect on it extensively. I find this sort of first hand historical accounts fascinating; even those that may need grain or two of salt added, out of bravado and hegemonic bias.
you've really taught me a lot about weapons and things of the nature, i found a long sword hema club in atlanta georgia, looking forward to having some fun.
thanks man and keep up the good work
thank you ! I had bought that book because you recommended it why I enjoyed it very much I had no idea though it contain Japanese swordsmen references I mainly focused on the Sudan war source and all.
There are several accounts between portuguese sailors and the samurai in the 16th century. One account that i find very interesting is about one portuguese captain had to fight a duel in tanegashima, because one of his sailors was drunk and stired some trouble.
In the duel, it is account that he defeated the samurai with ease, using his colhona, a portuguese sword made of iberian steel and painted black with a huge hand gaurd. A common sword used by the portuguese sailors at the time.
This type of sword was similar to a rapier, but a bit longer, with the portuguese / spanish steel wich was very regarded, it had two big sided hand guards with the purpose to incapacitate the enemey sword and it was painted black so it would not reflect the sun while on board a ship.
There are other historical accounts in the Torre do Tombo (Tomb Tower) in Lisbon, Portugal. These are the originals accounts from the 16th century.
interesting indeed. But it could be that the japanese swordsman sucked and the portuguese was really good...we'll never know.
That is just one account, there are others. Like the boarding of a portuguese galleon and the fight that were
@Michael Terrell II not quite. The record says that he fought in a duel, with his sword.
But feel free to check that account, it is a 16th century record made by Damião de Gois.
@Michael Terrell II all accounts during any age are taken in account depending on who wrote them. Since Damião de Gois is a well renowned historian during that time, his accounts are taken seriously. As such, historians do take his tells as true. Be mindfull that the interpretation of the language used in that time, must be taken as a factor, as he wrote that the portuguese captain used 3 strokes to take the japanese samurai down.
@Michael Terrell II there are other accounts, one like a portuguese nau being assaulted by japanese pirates, and that they repelled the atack with only 2 losses. But guns were used. Still, the portuguese sailors commonly used the colhona or crab sword, on wich they were trained by the portuguese fencing.
I can advise a book writen by a german historian, wich tells alot of the portuguese in the age of discovery. In this book, there several episodes of the portuguese, such as the sieges of Diu, and the incursions in the Indian ocean. The book is called "Men, Swords and Balls"
www.wook.pt/livro/homens-espadas-e-tomates-rainer-daehnhardt/8288630
There are however plenty of historical Japanese accounts of Japanese swords breaking in half upon striking something with the spine (mune) of the blade.
That's an interesting fact about Japanese swordsmen being used as hired fighters and being involved in piracy in and around southeast Asia. I always think of Japan at that time as being so isolated and insular. It seems funny to picture Europeans encountering them in say Thailand.
Just a short anecdote. I was selling a Wilkinson poignard to an auction representative whose specialty is edged weapons. He told me of dismantling a katana to restore it. On the part of the blade metal hidden normally by the handle was inscribed some Japanese that he had interpreted: "One blow. Two bodies." It was the sword makers stamp of quality, so to speak. Anyone familiar with katanas of the previous centuries would know they tested the blades on corpses of prisoners. Gave him chills to be holding that sword at that moment.
Your comment about the Japanese working as mercenary soldiers outside of Japan reminded me of a historic event. In the early 17th century the Dutch were strengthening their monopoly in the trade in nutmeg by strengthening their rule on the spice islands. They trumped up some charges on the village elders and they were all executed by hired Japanese mercenaries.
When I first heard about this I was amazed, but it made sense. They were trained soldiers, but their home nation was stable. So there was not much demand for their skills back home. But outside the shores of Japan there would be far more coin that could be earned.
Either way the event might be worth looking into by someone interested in historic accounts of Japanese soldiers. Because the Dutch East India Company were strict on administration and writing things down.
great video- Thank you
Really nice video and good info i enjoyed it a lot thanks
scholagladiatoria First great job on your channel from a regular customer.
In many eastern martial arts you often find spiritual/philosophical teachings. HEMA seems to be more on more technical side, i.e. you don't hear so much about those aspects (maybe there isn't much?). Maybe you could talk about that a bit? Cheers!
It might be that some of the accounts are of high end katanas which may be fewer in number and thus not indicative of the common blade, such as that sword which chipped.
@Michael Terrell II I think I was saying that you can't make a broad conclusion about the quality of old katanas from historical accounts alone. Dunno was years ago, forgot what the video is even about.
Katanas are great swords, but they are just swords. The main problem with Japanese swords is, that they did not evolve with the times. Like most other swords they were good at what they were originally supposed to do, but while in Europe specializations took place from rapiers for duels, sabres for cavalry, cutlasses for sea battles, etc, Japanese swords remained basically the same. Okay, there were tanto, kodachi, tachi, and nodachi, but these were all very traditional forms, mostly varying in length and thus usage. It was the form dictating the usage, not vice versa. While in Europe and in the Near East, you did not only have a much wider variety of blade forms, constantly re-inspiring one another, you also had a development in hand guards, and a sword is more than its blade. Japanese were masters in creating the best weapons from quite mediocre iron. Europeans had a far easier time, having much better quality iron and coal for steel smelting at their disposal. Thinking that better raw materials would lead to worse weapons is just ludicrous. The main advantage of samurai versus western militia would have been, that samurai basically still were a warrior caste, trained from early use in swordsmanship, just like european knights, who had ceased to serve that function.
The figure of the samurai, is wrapped in an aura of legend that shows how this men was nearly impossible to defeat. But these fighters not only were not invincible, were defeated by the Spanish Armada in 1580.
This uknown episode in the history, occurred when the Spanish governor in the Philippines heard about the arrival of a strong contingent of Japanese pirates who were harassing and plundering the indigenous fipipinos in the province of Luzon.
After several battles in Cagayan, both on land and sea, the spanish forces managed to defeat and expel Philippines to the japanese.
Since then the samurai called spanish marines "wo-cou" (fish-lizard).
For more information, please, consult the internet "wo-cou" and "Cagayan".
Personally, i practice historical fencing from a year, but i have trained for a years kendo, iaido, ninjitsu, shooting sports(IPSC) and sport fencing, when I was young, and the combat effectiveness of european weapons and martial arts is much higher than that of the samurai.
+luis Moratinos You know the battle involved more pirates than ronins right ?
I Know but the disproportion of these battles leaves little doubt about the effectiveness of weapons and techniques of European combat.
If you know some of these combats, who gave them problems to Spanish marines are the ashigaru (musketeers) who killed first.
Remenber that european musketeers carry the "12 apostles", 12 loads for his gun, and fire a shot for minute, if were proficient, up to 12.
So i think certainly the battle was decided more by the steel by lead.
Greetings and hope you find interesting my view.
luis Moratinos I do also think it was a combination of various strategies, not just sword fighting.
Of course, what you say it's absolutely true.
The Art of War includes many activities, all complementary.
Thanks you very much for your comments, always timely and accurate.
It sounds like the Japanese fighting style is very explosive and aggressive and duels don't last long. This explains why the handguard on Japanese swords is very undeveloped.
And also for that reason the swords weren't really used for sparring, what might explain why it would get chipped easily.
Actually... the tsuba, much like the parts of any functional weapon, isn't there in vain. Though sometimes considerably decorative, it kept moisture and such out of the saya and additionally kept the hand off the blade when thrusting. It's "underdeveloped" because that's not what it was for.
Use of the Tsuba depends on the school, much like European Longsword systems vary. Some may not rely on it much, while some Iai or Kenjutsu lineages may prefer bigger and thicker Tsubas for increased usage of locking, striking & blocking.
And there's not all that much difference in the protective qualities of a medieval style cross-hilt and a disc guard. A lot of Italian Longsword schools don't rely on cross guards a lot either.
Thank you very much for a rare angle.
Regarding the saber vs katana quote, it could be absolutely correct. The edge was very hard, while the rest of the blade was softer, to support the edge, and make sure it didn't snap.
have you covered takedowns and throws in european manuals? any difference to the japanese ones?
I figured since the throws and trips moreso survived in japan via Jujutsu and judo and are still being used today? somewhat tweaked today for sport use of course (and we can still see them being utilized in MMA today)
but when doing kata in judo you still do them pretty traditionally and the movement you defend are quite often sword attacks
Interesting that the strike from the draw mentioned in the account was an upwards stroke; I wouldn't even count myself as a layman, but the little bit of kenjutsu I've looked into had two such draws, one was horizontal and the other diagonal ending in the top right (drawing from the left hip) - my thoughts on trying both numerous times was that the diagonal (which I can easily see being described as upwards) was both the easier and more effective strike.
Maybe someone with some actual experience in the matter can correct me, but that my appraisal appears to match with historical anecdotes may suggest that the diagonal draw was more common than the horizontal (though the diagonal does appear to leave you more open to a reply).
What directiong is the diagonal draw going? Upwards.
I am fairly certain that the strike you are describing as diagonal is the one described as upwards in the account, a lot of strikes which are considered upwards or downwards are often diagonal.
RUclips has forced me to re-subscribe to your channel multiple times this week alone. I'd say 15-20 times at least.
Interesting video. Sounds like a great book, too.
id love to hear more about these japanese pirates please!
I think you made a verry good point about katanas. These are decent weapons, but just not the magic that some americans think they are.
The edge is both one of the strengths and one of the main weaknesses of the Katana. Yeah, it is sharp as shit and when cutting predomintly cloth/leather armor like the Japanese used before European contact, its works excellently. But as soon as you take that edge to European mail and plate style armors, the edge is just far too thin and more importantly, too hard to come away unscathed. And then the work to fix all those knicks and chips is horrendous. Simply put, the Katana is a fantastic sword, especially IN ITS OWN CONTEXT. European swords were designed to meet the challenges of the European battle field, just like the katana. As you have pointed out, there is and cannot be a do all sword.
I've long thought a good comparison, would be saying a katana (or uchigatana anyone, I believe katana just translates as sword or knife, much like dao and messer) is like a Ferrari, and a European sword is like a Land Rover.
Can you talk about the historical accounts with Korean back on the days with the weapons :)
+김영범 I read somewhere that Koreans weapons were mostly identical to the Chinese due to cultural assimilation etc. Even the nobles wore almost similar stuff
Mohd Haikal Mohd Nashuha I see ! man, i want to study more >:)
First comment! Loved the video, very informative.
So when facing down a Japanese swordsmen, carry a gun. Advice still holds up
The Indiana Jones method.
Not just one gun TWO guns. You know, just in case.
I'm really liking your videos. Do you have any suggestions for book on medieval sword fighting and other combat?
Thanks
Sideburns to the tips of the lips? Interesting choice, but I see that it isn't reflected later on down the line.
Hey Matt. Just wondered if you are aware of a Japanese school of fighting called Katori Shinto Ryu? It's an excellent source of historical Japanese martial arts (dating from the Sengoku era) and is a school that still exists. I've had some training with Japanese swords and I think they're superb (although I'm still very much a novice), but like any weapon they evolved around a specific purpose and context, as you've said in previous videos. Anyone who believes they're some kind of super weapon clearly has anime-tinted-goggles on!
Great video. Do you have knowledge on Chinese weapons and combat. I know most kung fu schools have made their sword fighting more of an art and have lost a lot of the practical uses.
Even the chinese don't know much about the art (yes, including all the charlatan monks, shifus, circus acts, etc...) I don't think any real applicable art survived. Most engineering, technical and martial art manuals/tomes were burned in order to prevent Han Chinese rebellion when the Qing Manchus took over.
You know, I don't know why I've never thought about this. Super interesting.
Japanese swords sold as mementos and souvenirs are notoriously shitty quality. There was a similar phenomenon during WW2 when all japanese then american soldiers were trying to get their hands on katanas, but what they got were lumps of supposedly sharpened steel made in ways a decent asian smith would rather burst into tears than use to make his own weapons.
The US army confiscated and destroyed every katana they could lay their hands on after the Japanese surrender. These not only included all military swords but also priceless antiques. Some escaped the furnaces in soldiers' (officers mainly) luggage and some were successfully hidden to emerge later. These are all we have left which really makes it difficult to make any firm conclusions about the overall quality of Japanese swords. The sample is just too small.
+Gerry Edwards Certainly. But I was referring to souvenirs made as such and sold as such. They were usually mass-produced and built very hastily with whatever was available. I am pretty confident George S. Patton and his pearl-gripped SAA had a bit more money to spare than your run-on-the-mill foot soldier, and a lot of them were able to take (or sneak) a sword back home.
Also, you make the distinction between military Gunto and priceless antiques, and you are absolutely right 99.99% of the time, but a very select few carried said antiques as military insignia ( an excellent example is general Tomoyuki Yamashita who carried a 17th century Kanenaga and gave it up to gen. McArthur - the sword ended up at West Point museum)
+badr selfaoui Sorry if I seemed as though I was disagreeing with you. I was just mentioning the destruction because it's a thing that comes to mind whenever katanas and ww2 come up. When I found out about it I almost wept at the waste. You're spot on as far as I've seen. Some ww2 katanas with genuine, or rather totally consistent, arsenal markings are definitely of inferior quality. Probably these were forged later on in the war when Japan's access to steel was so drastically affected by the military reversals it suffered and the mounting losses in merchant shipping. You can pick these up for not much dosh, but you do still see the odd example of antique blades with ww2 fittings. I saw a lovely naval officer's sword recently. I don't know anything about the swords picked up by the large numbers of US servicemen station in Japan post war as souvenirs or 'trophies' but I can easily imagine that they were all after one and also that any that were available to the average soldier would hardly be likely to be quality swords.
+Gerry Edwards Indeed! I may have been too harsh, sorry. The thing is, Japan had widely adopted the use of bayonets, and most people just wanted to imitate their superiors (the likes of Yamashita for example). In fact, until WW2, there were still quite some antique katana in circulation, but they were usually kept by families as heirlooms, and acquiring one was out of the question for an ordinary soldier. And speaking of this, I read an anecdote of the utmost peculiarity (alright, maybe that's too much): Nobuo Fujita, a Japanese naval pilot who bombed Oregon during WW2 and later said he was ashamed of his acts. He was invited to Brookings (a town he'd bombed) and brought along his family's 400 y.o katana to commit seppuku in case he was met with hostility. He wa sin fact warmly welcomed and so gave the blade to the city. He also planted a tree at the bomb site, was made a honorary citizen, and his daughter even buried some of his ashes there. That, sir, is a soldier.
+badr selfaoui I can't remember who said it, or how they put it exactly, but something about peace requiring more courage than war.... nope can't think.... point was that it seems like less of a cliché in light of stories like that. It's one thing feeling guilt over something and quite another to actually actually go and apologise for it in person. A different sort of courage maybe, but no less humbling. The 70th anniversary showed just how much importance is still attached by China to the subject of apologies. It's all a sad business and may yet lead to more conflict, with Japan's current perceived abandonment of their post-war pacifist doctrine. Current events are so much easier to understand when you learn the history that gave rise to them. It never ceases to surprise me that many folks have no interest in history.
I love all kinds of swords, but i think that is difficult to compare japanese swords with european swords, sabres or cutlasses because the techniques to using them is very different... Nice videos anyway mate... subscribing in 3..2..1...
I have a question. As a dutchman, I am really interested in my own country and its heritage. Now I know that the netherlands as such wasn't around untill 17 something (perhaps 16) And that "we" aren't mentioned in medieval warfare much. But are there typical Dutch weapons? And I will go ahead and say that the goedendag is a belgian weapon (if that is any difference?) So I ask, are there any dutch melee weapons that are truly of the european mainland. So not the imported weapons from asia and such? I hope I don't ask to much.
As someone who has done Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai this was a great video Matt. Do you know where one can find first hand accounts of Japanese swordsmanship? At least stuff that has been translated to English?
We need some examples of Japanese sword master vs. European sword master. This was fascinating. Great perspectives!
Any accounts of those European soldiers fencing against Japanese swordsmen, and what is your opinion on the effectiveness of kenjutsu when pitted against saber or cutlass? Saber and cutlass would be the European forms most likely to have been encountered in a historical context and are not as thrust oriented as other forms. Also kenjutsu does utilize thrusts, they just tend to be delivered from the centerline of the body rather than from a ventral lunge.
The difficulty many Europeans have with Asian accounts of warriors is that they are unable to separate the fairy tales from fact.
Asian accounts tend to be replete with stories of magic which are not taken seriously within an Asian context whereas us Europeans tend to swallow the fairy tales hook line and sinker as our historical accounts do not tend to have hagiographies so we wrongly read the Asian accounts as fact.
That's a good point, I don't know of any Asian or European accounts, but that sounds like something that could be very true.
Thanks for sharing .
As with all skills , A sword is only as good as the man wielding it .
Enlightenment on Japanese samurai by the way l like the mutton chops your wearing Matt. Possibly a European swordsman who should have carried the beautiful Arn sword made by Albion Armories.!
Great video, I really like the subject!
Just out of curiosity, do you know of any accounts abot okinawan martial arts seen by westerners or applied in bouts/brawls and recorded by westerners? Thanks a lot!
And BTW got the book you showed in my list :D
Cheers from Napoli!
Davide
Do I remember reading that many of the archetypal 'ninja' weapons, kasurigama and the long flail thingy among others, originated in Okinawan martial arts? Farm implements originally, but used to great effect against samurai and their retinue from the Home Islands.
I honestly do not know if the kusarigama as seen and used in mailna d Japan originates in Okinawa. The kama are used in Okinawan kobud in pairs, but without a a chain. Other than the regular kama the chogama, a kama blade ounted over a bo is also used.
Unfortunately evidences on farm tools used against samurai weapons are rare. Nonetheless just yesterday a saw a very old picture of a jigen ryu kenjutsuka pitted against a bojutsuka of one of the ancient okinawan bojutsu ryuu. an intersting topic indeed, I regret not having the time to research in depth :(
I heard somewhere that the Katana was a very good thrusting weapon, and here you state they didn't teach thrusting. It's also been my understanding that single edged curved weapons were not designed/are inferior for thrusting. Thoughts? Thanks.
Is there any historical accounts of duels between Europeans and Japanese swordsman and what was the outcome?
Good food for thought in this video. I wonder if there are any Japanese accounts of European swordsmanship. It's always been my understanding that Japan was fairly isolated until the mid to late 19th century. As such, I would imagine they might be considerably rarer, but I'd like to see some, if they exist. If they took a favorable attitude towards European styles and weapons, it might well lay to rest much of the debate about which was "better."
Personally, I take the opinion that the Japanese sword is a fantastic solution to the problem of relatively poor and/or rare raw materials, and that given those materials, the fact that they managed to produce a sword as good as they did is quite impressive. Their swordsmanship simply seems to me to have been developed to enhance and compliment the best characteristics of that weapon.
But what do I know?
and not to mention that HEMA and kenjutsu stances are very similar
It would be interesitng ot know what the Porteguese thoughts on the subject frm back in the 16th century.
Also, what the Chinese thought of Japanese swords ad sword techniques.
See Kill Bill 2
Well they traded with them long enough, if the swords and Fencing was that good they could a have gone to Europe!
The Ming accounts in modern literature tend to be somewhat ret-conned to create a mythos for certain weapons (especially the Miao Dao), a common problem in CMA history. In more modern times we know that Liu Yun Qiao defeated a Kenjutsu master in a duel in Tianjin in the 20s armed with a Jian (Kindof a double edged spadroon if you're not familiar with Chinese swords) which conventional wisdom would state is a less potent weapon. We know that the swords themselves were prized after the first Sino-Japanese war, but that the early encounters between Katana and Dadao in the second Sino-Japanese war were so disastrous for the Japanese that they completely overhauled their training.
Sifuben
Thank you for all the information.
It might be that the Japanese at this point were no longer taking sword training as seriously.
But as for previous centuries who knows.
Funny though how not many people pay attention to Chinese swords and sword techniques. Shame really.
This does not really address swords that much but Noel Perrin's book "Giving Up the Gun" offers the following quote regarding the invasion by Hideyoshi. (Page 35)
"That war occurred from their point of view, during the Ming Dynasty; and the official dynastic history summarizes the fighting in these words:"
"The invasion by the Kampaku (Lord Hideyoshi) lasted nearly seven years. Causalities in the war exceeded many hundred thousand... Though Korea and China fought hand in hand, they had no change of victory. Only the death of the Kampaku brought the calamities of warfare to an end"
Well said.
I always thought that when comparing swords, one has to take into account the places they were made in.
I agree with this i by no means have much knowledge about swords or practice with them sadly though i do have a large interest in them. I just wanted to say well it is all good fun to have the fantasy "lightning fast" sword fighting and ect ect in real-life yea swordsmanship (from what i have seen) have a lot of similar things to them though of course some differences as you said as well.
RELEASE THE KATANA TROLLS! YAGH YAGH YAGH!
In china japanese swords and swordmanship is also highly regarded through history. and in my experience, the traditional japanese swords tend to chip when encounter heavy edge to edge impact. its not supprising for a edge as hard as 60 HRC in hardness. but it doesn't mean you cannot use it for edge to edge contact. the blade may chip but very hard to break. a low carbon core inside the blade usually pervent any kind of breaking. when come to kill, a chipped blade has little difference with an undamaged one.
Are there any Portuguese accounts of Japanese swordsmanship from their first encounters with the Japanese in the 16th century?
Also, while the (in my opinion ridiculous) question of how a fight between a knight and samurai would fare is far too commonly asked, I've never heard anyone asking about a civilian duel between a rapier or side-sword wielder and an edo-period samurai. Obviously the level of training between civilians would differ far more than the training of soldiers, but I think it could be an interesting question nevertheless.
Closest thing I can think of, is battle between Japanese and European (Portugese IIRC) pirates. Japanese boarding party was dealt with swiftly, though Portugese advantage didn't come from superior swordsmanship as much as use of bucklers.
kireta21 I can see that; a small shield usable in the tight quarters of a ship would be a huge advantage.
I wasn't aware that European pirates ventured that far or had much activity in East Asia. I guess where trade goes enterprising thieves follow.
I think it's more because Japanese were unlikely to face such weapon before, and because of that were simply unable to deal with it. Shield is easy to understand, but buckler is all about active defense and can be easily used as secondary weapon.
It's just like mentioned Japanese-style draw cut: extremely dangerous to opponent not familiar with it.
I think it was common in medieval times for military to encounter, and recruit into their military, skilled warriors from wherever they could be found, and afforded. For example: The crossbow was changed to a recurve bow because it allowed a shorter (smaller) bow with just as much power as the longbow based crossbow but in a smaller package. Just one example of co-opting foreign technology.... I wonder if medieval Europeans ever met Japanese swordsmen and how such would affect martial skills.... Either way, thank you for the video and your opinion!
As many of these accounts come from a time when swordsmanship was (compared to still feudal japan) a less practiced art. Along with the relative prominence of Iai would have perhaps created the impression of speed greater than a comparable European sword making the same moves.
I have a collection of culinary knives and chisels from my travels in japan. The quality of these “samurai forge “ traditional blades is pretty wide. Some have such a brittle and poor quality white steel core. They chip easily, while the higher quality blades are amazing. Guess what? All my lower quality blades came from sellers aimed at visitors while most of my quality blades came from insider connected retailers with local reputation. I suspect times aren’t that different today than 150 years ago. Cheers.
Sweet sideburns bro
what is the earliest account you have found of Europeans speaking of Japanese swords or swordsmanship? we know Europeans were there before the banning of the 'barbarians' and then again later, but were any encounters, as witnesses or actual fights from earlier than the quotes listed in the vid?
I have been practicing Japanese martial arts for a number of years and i love my katana but i also love my hand and a half sword as well. I never think that you bash on Japanese swords or swordsmanship what people in the world must realise that its not only the sword but makes a good sword but the actual swordsman. You could have the best sword in the world and have a amateur use it and would be a crap sword. What is a sword without an arm that wields it nothing but steel.
It would be interesting to hear Japanese account of European swordsmanship to compare.
You make me think of a Old veteran British officer that has seen some shit.
Another example for context, altough it has to be considered as a whole regarding the different tactics and general flow of the battle, not only for swordmanship.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1582_Cagayan_battles
Kenjistu, jujitsu and aikido revolve around the same base philosophies in using momentum and footwork to essentially minimize excess energy and maximize efficiency. And the quality of the blade is dependent on the smith in person just like you can’t say which is better ‘knight’ or ‘samurai’ it all depends on the warriors in question.
A Shotgun can cut a Katana in half :D Sorry, love my shotgun.
Interesting video. Love Japanese swords but don't think they were the best. I think the best probably depends upon who's wielding it and for what purpose. I think I'd rather have a rapier to duel with than a katana but I'm pretty sure I'd look much cooler with a Katana :D
On the other hand, a katana could cut a Shogun in half.
Matei Ionescu no...not at all
*****
Members of the Shogunate were immune to swords?
Matei Ionescu I thought you said "shotgun"
*****
Shotgun? Hell no! Katanas were used to cut Shoguns, not Shotguns!
+scholagladiatoria
Fantastic, now how many of those accounts actually saw the swords in actions or even fenced with Europeans?
Do you info on Korean swordsmanship? Are there any records on that still existing?
What about Sikh weapons?
The reason why there is so much japanese sword / swordsmanship praising in the internet is that there is a lot of people in the internet that play japanese/asian games all day,watch anime,read mangas and have an obsesion with their culture thinking its "more cool"besides the samurai has an aura of mistery that makes people like to think they were better warriors.
Sounds more like a training and diligence thing than a sword quality thing. It was probably the best way to deal with the iron they had at the time and they do look exquisite. I think I read somewhere that in practice European and Japanese swordsmanship was not wholly dissimilar.
Personally I feel that the sword they tested against Wilkinson saber might have been quite good. Differential hardening may have lots of virtues, but t it produces a blade which can potentially chip and bend, both at the same time.
i have always found the meigi era of japan fascinating. Do you suppose the mysticism of japanese sword play may have come from its unique unfamiliar use from the perspective of the western swordsman? And perhaps its this view point that has so heavily colored pop culture today?
On the one negative account of the katana odds are it actually WAS a bad quality sword that was sold to them as a good sword wouldn't have been sold to someone who hadn't practiced the Japanese sword styles especially if they weren't Japanese. another similar case of this would be colonial north America where colonists would sell muskets to native Americans to hunt with, but they would be very low quality and as such would not begin to compare with the muskets the Europeans had.
one weapon that i want to know more about is the sword breaker
cant really find much info about them
European or Chinese? Completely different weapons there.
It makes good sense that a katana would chip where a sabre would not. The steel at the edge of a katana is differentiated from the rest of the blade; harder and more brittle. Edge to edge contact between the two weapons could be expected to damage the katana regardless of how the sabre fared.
Many years ago, a friend asserted that the Portuguese who first encountered the Japanese in the 1500's and used rapiers, were not impressed with Japanese swordsmanship or their weapons. He's never been able to show me documentation for this though. But it is an interesting subject. How would a Katana - Rapier duel turn out?
dkeith45 Actually, according to books that I lost access to several years ago, Miyamoto Musashi's niten'ichi (2-sword technique) was developed from his observations of other samurai dueling with Portuguese traders - who fenced with rapier and main-gauche, and usually won the duel. Unfortunately, I can't document it either, though I came across this story from many sources. (I drastically trimmed my personal library a few years ago, and I no longer have access to the stacks of the Widener Memorial Library, etc.) If you put - Musashi Miyamoto/Portuguese sailors - into google, you'll find indications that a lot of people have heard of this. (That doesn't actually prove anything, but to be fair, it isn't possible to prove anything 400 years later) However, having studied many forms of fencing over the years (including Kendo and Florentine-style), I really don't see any reason to doubt it...
What made samurai so proficient is what made Spartans to be held in such high regard as well - they were raised and taught as warriors all their lives, they dedicated themselves to war and to their masters.
As any person dedicating themselves to one set of skills over the whole course of their lives, specially with Japanese discipline involved, of course you get to be an outstanding warrior, there's no way you can be bad at what you dedicated your whole life to.
+Fabricio Nogueira Knights typically began training in early adolescence. What do you think squires are?
Nearly every society's warrior class began training early.
The jist of it is the katana gets exaggerated but is still pretty good, the long sword is in fact almost as fast and about the same weight and not at all slow, rapiers don't break easy, but aren't much fast when used than any other sword, sabers are more durable than usually believed but still inferior, save as a calvary weapons, and people don't do their research like this guy has done with his good videos. :) Ultimately, the user and the quality of how it is made and what circumstance defines the battle.
I just love the craftsmanship of Japanese swords. Not to take anything away from European smithing, of course, or suggest that somehow the smithing process of a katana of No Dachi make them 'superior'; I just adore the aesthetic of the end product. It is as much an expression of art, with steel the medium, as much as it is a weapon (and was treated as such, as I understand it, back in the relevant time period).
Not sure if this has been mentioned but there is an interesting account from 1610 where the Captain of the Portuguese ship Nossa Senhora de Graca killed several samurai in blade to blade combat while he was armed with a shield and rapier.
Per wikipedia Portuguese explorers arrived in Japan in 1543. Does anybody know of any accounts of Japanese vs. European swordsmen from the 16th or 17th centuries?
Do you reckon there is any possibility of a sort of mystification of certain eastern Swords and Swordsmanship even back then? Not to deny the sources or what they are saying it is just something I've always thought about.
Maybe, but both the Japanese and Indians still had strong swordsmanship traditions, at a time when most other places had let hand to hand combat skills decline in favour of greater use of firearms.
Good to know.
There is a lovely advertisement on The Project Gutenberg website called "Japanese Swords" by Anonymous. The title page has this
JAPANESE SWORDS
YAMANAKA & CO.
127, New Bond Street, London.
April, 1913.
And the author very briefly points out how deadly the Japanese sword blades are compared to European swords. It's a quick overview of Japanese sword blade terminlogy and it contains a nice catalog of blades and their sizes in both Japanese measurement (Shaku, Sun, Bu) and Metric measurement for each of the blades that are pictured. It's on;y about 2 pages long.
Here's a link: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41321
Juan Gonzalez Great stuff, thanks for sharing. Nice source. There is also at least one circa 1900 European self defence manual that recommends wakizashi for home/personal defence.
scholagladiatoria Now that's interesting, it's sort of just the Japanese cutlass.
Same thing with many people and religion. People like, for example, christianity, they just dont like its die hard fanatics (And this is a franciscan/jesuit speaking)
The global child rape culture is an issue too.....
2:26 William Blakeney... any chance he's related to that absolutely-a-total-fop-and-most-certainly-not-the-Scarlet-Pimpernel Percy Blakeney?
In 1905, Japanese admiral Togo sent letter to Russian admiral Rozenstvenko (near Vladivostok). He asked for one Russian to come for a duel with his samurai in front of both armies... To shorten this, Captain Saicic of Montenegro decapitated this samurai... His saber from this duel is now at the Military Museum in Moscow. After this, his friends started to call him “Muromec of the new age”.
Nicely said IMO
I have experience and training with Japanese swords as well as martial arts.. and from what I was taught (by my sensai's sensai) was the swords sold to the Europeans were generally "junk" by low end apprentices. Not the same quality as what I have been lucky enough to work with.
I wouldn't be surprised if they did that