I just love how Zuko could've killed his father with his own lightning, but doesn't and states that the Avatar was fated to do it, that scene is burned into my brain and I love it.
It's definitely one of the most meaningful moments in the series. I still remember having my jaw drop whenever Zuko just redirects it and vanishes, ohh what I wouldn't give to watch the series for the very first time again.
Not only is it the avatar's fate to do it but Zuko killing his father would lead to more issues. It would mostly be seen as the prince killing the firelord to try to covet the throne and take it for himself unfairly. Politically, it would be a disaster. The only way for a peaceful resolution is for the avatar to do it.
I really liked this episode because it showed the gaang looking at what was essentially a shortcut. For sokka, he wasn’t ready to be a leader and jumped into the role only for his father to take over, katara believing that this would be the end of the war, and even aang not having to master the elements as the enemy would be left powerless. None were ready for the war, still in need of growth and maturation, but when presented with an “easy way” they immediately took it. These episodes showed to me that the easy way isn’t always the best way and not to put all my eggs in one basket so to speak
I disagree with the Sokka thing. He was completely ready and his plan is why they got so far in the first place and had it not been for the earth king telling Azula disguised as a Kyoshi about the eclipse, the plan would have worked. He was just a kid so getting anxiety about talking to essentially an army (more accurately, a Militia) is understandable and even by the last episode Sokka was never talking to a group that large about soemthing as important as a plan to take down the fire nation. When it comes to Sokka as a war general he was perfect! He failed not bc he wasn’t good enough but bc Azula was.
@@nerdthatcantfit1079 that kinda goes into my point. It was a good plan but that was the only plan he had. He wasn’t prepared for a diversion, and was outsmarted as a result. Regardless of whether or not the attack was known, which I do admit is an integral part to the failure, the plan admittedly wasn’t very sound. His intent was to take out the fire lord on his weakest day so why assume he would be chilling at home. Then there’s also the fact that his father had to take command of the army in order to organize the attack. The whole day seemed to strengthen and mature him to the tactical genius we see at sozins comet
It's great how this episode was able to give Zuko another chance to step as a hero, in spite of joining Azula in defeating Aang and his friends in Ba Sing Se.
Avatar did this so well as opposed to other shows by softly showing how the fire nation was just more well planned from their experience with war as opposed to other shows where the hero loses because of straight up incompetence like a lot of CW hero shows do or just an unrealistic set up like the later seasons of Walking Dead. I love that about Avatar because it made you feel a part of it. You felt the loss whole heartedly instead of just being pissed off by lazy writing.
@MrMitchbow Yeah the Whisperer concept was pretty great. I definitely liked that arch quite a bit. Then the last arch started off well but then they just repeated the same formula they've been doing since the beginning but in a very lackluster and lazy kind of way
Another genius part is the return of impactful minor characters. The northern air temple, the swamp dudes and other friends. This is usually only done at the conclusion. The fact that it's only the gaang taking on Ozai is a huge and meaningful contrast. These are mainly personal battles, and they always had been. This also makes their loss at the day of black sun initially hit hard but retroactively feel proper. It makes the real ending feel like it always should have been the real ending (ignoring the lion turtle part). I wonder how much of it was planned and how much falls into place in hindsight.
"Another genius part is the return of impactful minor characters. The northern air temple, the swamp dudes and other friends." Also a good way to remind the audience of the inventor, and how his latest invention was discovered. "This defeat will grant us many victories."
It's truly genius. How did the writers know that we would want to see all our favorite characters coming together and fighting an epic battle side by side? Can they read our minds or something?
You kinda had to not be paying attention to zuko in the first half of book 3 to think he was enjoying being back home, the show made it very clear that he couldn't stand it and that zuko was going to leave it behind on his own terms
I interpret enjoying more in the line of "having got what he wanted" and "living the royal live in the quasi capital of the world" compared to Aang constantly running for his life and living hand to mouth, day by day. Which is the better life at first glance.
I feel like I had doubts ever since Azula found out about the eclipse plan. There's no way they were going to succeed with the Fire Nation having prepared beforehand.
True, there was no way they would win with her knowing in advance, but I (and probably a lot of others) completely forget about that one line upon first viewing.
One other brilliant aspects of this episode is how much sense the failure actually makes in-universe. The show spends so much time prepping for this battle and priming the audience for a victory, that it gets the audience to ignore the massive, glaring flaw with Sokka's plan. The fire nation would obviously know about the eclipse and be extra prepared for it. Avatar or not, it would be the perfect moment to attempt an uprising, so they'd likely be on higher alert than almost any other day. Both the audience and the characters are so distracted by how perfect of an opportunity the day of black sun is, that they don't consider the bad guys realize that too.
The fire nation actually didn’t seem to realize this until the earth king gave away their plans to Azula (thinking she was a Kyoshi warrior). Granted, Ozai probably was prepared all along, but at the very least, it shows that even someone as cunning as Azula was caught off guard by the audacity of this plan.
i still want to say azula had a huge factor in knowing when day of black sun would happen. and not to mention shes also a prodigy so even with one tidbit of info she would correctly guess when it would happen. she hard carried the fire nation and you can see it. while yeah ozai was powerful, she did all of the ground work including tipping off the firelord that they were planning an assault that day.
I also love this episode because this is one, if not the only, episode where the show actually showed how powerful the fire lord is (at least before the final fight). He only needed a glimpse of the sun to be able to whip up fucking lightning in an instant.
Since I watched it on netflix, I kind of expected they wouldn't win since there were more episodes after. But I really enjoyed seeing Zuko facing his father and overcoming his own struggles
Yes, that would be the case, but we previously watched it on TV. And being in a third world country made me even clueless about how many episodes left.
Same boat here, so did kinda lesson the impact of the loss, but still great episodes like most of the series. Kind of a flaw in this new age of streaming, but at my age I have other issues with character wins and losses in general.
That only became an issue thanks to modern day streaming. Back when it was airing and we were just kids tuning in, we didn't know how many episodes were after or if there even would be.
I watched it recently on Netflix, but thanks to never looking at the episode list, I was able to have a more similar experience to watching it on tv It's all about restraint really
I remember how hyped I was as a kid for this episode and I was just in utter shock. When I did a rewatch I Netflix , I saw the warning signs that this was going to fail and I understood it much better. Such a great twist!
I kinda agree, they aren’t the best episodes (though still very good) but they do a an important job of showing that they were still just kids before being thrust into being literal child soldiers. I also think they establish all the main characters and what they are all about really well.
I remember originally that the Day of Black Sun episodes leaked about 6 months in advance of their ultimate air date, before even the episodes that preceded it in the story. After watching the defeat, I thought maybe the leak was actually a high-quality fake.
Looking back, the plan had a critically underbaked issue: what happens after the fire lord is gone? They didn’t have a Zuko - a rightful heir to the throne - to step in at the time. They would have created a huge power vacuum that would snap close and a lot of upset soldiers still loyal to the fire lord
I mean yeah, but that's a lot better than a cohesive/non power vacuum fire nation during the day of black sun. Like, you probably can't destroy them entirely but they didn't manage to do that in the true finale anyways. Zuko was discredited as heir multiple times anyways so it's not like he's a rightful heir. Not that we really want one? Like, the current fire nation is bad right? And we've seen in avatar that kind rulers don't make a messed up system ok
I disagree with your point about wanting to see Zuko fall. He wasn't enjoying his life as hero of the Fire Nation, he was just as conflicted as before -- more so even, because he had to betray the one person who was always on his side. That's what Zuko's arc was building up to: realizing he was on the wrong side the entire time. We didn't want to see him fail, we wanted to see him change his path. And as for the battle as a whole, it was destined to fail. The premise was cheating. Aang's mission was to master all four elements and dethrone the Fire Lord to end the war. By making a move against Ozai while fire bending was neutralized, Aang was cheating on his mission. The defeat at the battle was a karmic punishment for Aang and the others trying to take a shortcut to victory.
I don't know if its cheating, its just strategy and opportunism. The fire nation would capitalize in something similar like only firebending working for a while.
My problem with a lot of losses is that they aren't _this_ satisfying. They weren't built in a way that plays correctly with the losses -- a lot of the time it exposes the hands of the writers in an ugly way. For example, in certain JRPG or manga series, the protagonist can't win because the story would be over then -- you can see that that's why they lost, not because it's a natural build-up of the storytelling. Compare that to this one where you can _feel_ that something is going to go wrong, and it went wrong in the most logical way that resonates emotionally. Now, contrast that with a manga where the protagonist lost just because they need to keep it going. Losses and victories are storytelling tools, but they're still under the same rule of storytelling in that they have to be engaging, they have to make sense emotionally, and they have to be used at the correct time with the right build up. I'd be bored of a story where the losses are because the writers need them to as much as I'd be bored of a story where they win all the time because they want it to. Context is important, and it has to be built, it has to be _earned_ .
No one ever talk about how Day of Black Sun is what happened during Tet offensive of North Vietnam against the America in 1968? North Vietnam used the Tet holiday (which is Lunar New Year) to simultanously rise in multiple cities of South Vietnam, while South Vietnam army was celebrating the new year and wasn't preparing for an attack. The North Vietnam was sure to end the war there. North Vietnam successfully took controls of the big cities, including Saigon, but couldn't hold them when the Americans intervened. Most of the soldiers were then captured or killed. It took North Vietnam many years to recover due to heavy casualty, but also put a fear deep inside America, despite it's failure. Ho Chi Minh died in the year after, 1969, some says he was too sad about the failure, but at the same time, protests were all over America. And they fled in 1973, leading to Vietnam reunification at 1975, with the North victory.
I hadn’t really developed an analytical eye the first time I saw this series; I never realized how much of a subversion it was to have the heroes lose this battle that had been built up as practically a series finale. (Mostly because I didn’t catch the show live and had to watch it on Netflix later, so I knew there was more show afterwards.) Many stories these days “subvert expectations” simply by doing the opposite of what the audience expects, and that’s still what Day of the Black Sun did. But what this show did that many others don’t is take the time to CREATE those expectations within the audience, in the first place. Many other shows simply assume what their audience is expecting, and don’t make an effort to curate those expectations to fit the story they want to tell. That’s the lesson I’ve gathered from this video, at least. Thank you for sharing your observations!
I was old enough and well versed in tropes when i first watched the show to know Zuko would be part of team avatar as early as the storm (where the first hints at it appear). With that in mind, i was not waiting for Zuko to be punished during the eclipse, but instead for the inevitable: his turncoat to team avatar. The subtext was there, but it was a bit too subtle for the youngest members of the audience to pick up on; Zuko was not enjoy his life as a prince that he desired ever since his banishment. At best, he enjoyed the company of Mai, but after traveling the world and hunting the avatar for so long, he learned of the horrors of his home and felt nothing but guilt. THAT was his punishment: guilt (and Iroh's cold shoulder). Not something physical, but something karmic. If anything, the mirror between Zuko and team avatar (POV Sokka) for the episode is the first hint at defeat. As Sokka is preparing for war, Zuko is dressing down (from political/military to casual). Ignoring the knowledge or lack thereof for a raid, a high-ranking fire bender (like the prince) would not be removing protective or authoritative layers in an environment where they expect a possibility physical danger. Maybe the nation is brainwashed, but if there would ever be a coup or assassination attempt, it would be on the day with no bending, as it greatly reduces the threat Ozai could put out, even if he was physically trained for close combat. The fact such armor was removed suggests 2 things: first, Zuko and his close circle of political hierarchy are in a personal private space, and second, the group is confident no threat can reach them, despite the lack of bending. For the second point to be true, it implies knowledge of the raid, along with counter measures in place, such as the separate bunker in which they are currently hunkering down and the ghost town occupied only by soldiers that is meant to keep the raid distracted, if not completely neutralizing them (such as capturing the entire force as POWs; exactly what we see save for team avatar and the young who could escape on appa). At the start of the episode, the audience knows none of that, but it remains there as a hint hidden in plain sight. The shot alone implies a sense of calm contrary to the big military operation we know is planned. The fact the shot exists when and where it does was an intentional choice by the creative team, which is the meta-analysis to explain why the contrast makes the scene feel so uneasy, despite the hopeful projected win. Even if the audience does not pick up on the why through the analysis, they most certainly will pick up on the how subconsciously, which is what creates the unease.
I feel what makes Day of Black Sun work is how its set up. There's a thing that gives the heroes an advantage and all the allies from across the series have all come together at once to strike the main bad guys base. It's a very typical way to end a show, especially one aimed at kids like Avatar was. But none of what we expected happened. The Fire Nation knew the whole time, and the eclipse wasn't enough (which is a fantastic subversion of the whole "win button phenomenon" trope) However, none of it would matter if not for the consequences. The heroes definitively lost, and Aang and the other kids are at their absolute lowest point for the rest of the series. It's a ripple effect. I guarantee you they wouldn't have accepted Zuko into the group if this didn't happen. Not to mention for the finale, they cut it so close they have to wing it DURING Sozin's Comet, even though the whole show kept saying they had to end things before it came.
Also fun is for a the later part of ATLA the "win before Sozin's comet" thing was piled on with "Aang can't go into the Avatar state" which.. was the reason he won in the end anyways, he legit would have lost/died if he didn't reunlock the Avatar state
The only issue I have with this two parters is that there was still a half season left,so you know before the battle even starts that it will end in failure.
I'd have to disagree, this may be down to me being much younger back then and a lot less in tune with the internet, but I never went in with the thought "there are more episodes after, so this will for sure be a set back". There could have been an epilogue, there could have been another fight against the firelord himself etc. Though again, I don't recall how much information was available going into the episode originally.
And that's why I usually Avoid looking how many episodes/chapters there is left. I can't see it and just leave without imagining the results of the fight/war
I was rewatching the series for the nth time, but with another friend of mine - who was completely new for this series (basically a guy know never watched an English series). I told this was the last episode of the series, which he completely believed. He was fully geared up to watch the finale (allocating time, buying chips etc), but as the episodes unrolled, his expectations completely shattered. every scene was keeping on the toes not knowing whether Aang win or lose. I am jealous that I couldn't have this experience, when watching for the first time (watched as kid and my TV channel didn't air in the proper sequence).
I remember watching this for the first time, I think I had to be 11 or 12 and I didn't know it wasn't the last episodes then. The show actually had a lot of mini hiatus-es when it was first airing too so it was hard to tell. Episodes would be months apart sometimes and I never knew when it'd be back until Nickelodeon advertised it. There was an 8 month gap between Day of Black Sun and the rest of the show too. It was an intense time for me lmao
The irony with the World of Warcraft example is that "the bad guys win and meaningfully affects the setting" is the canon ending for the original Warcraft game. The Horde decimates the Kingdom of Stormwind which leads to the creation of the Alliance of Lordaeron and events of Warcraft 2.
It is also worth noting the truly devious and genius foreshadowing for this event. We do see the moment their surprise has been blown (in a passing comment to Azula from the Earth King), but it’s revealed right before the finale of season 2. And in all the chaos you (or at least, me the first time around) completely forget that the plan has indeed been compromised, and so upon watching these two episodes, you are exhilarated, waiting to see Aang take down the fire lord. But once you see that the fire lord was prepared, it hits you and you remember that little detail of Azula finding out about the plan. It’s just subtle enough to not stick around in your mind as the gaang prepares their attack.
That scene of the blimps and not just the small ones but the big ones for the first time. I remember being little thinking about that first technological and comparing it to ww1 ww2 and just shitting my pants while sokka and the gaang shit themselves the same.
I have this theory that the invasion’s failure and Katara being burned by accident in the season 1 episode The Disertar was the spirit world punishing Aang for cheating the cycle.
You could also draw parallels between DOBS to the invasion at the end of season one, where both situations were made possible by the use of knowledge stolen from the spirits to get a loophole against another group's bending. Fortunately for the kids, their loophole didn't require doing anything bad to trigger so the karmic blowback wasn't as severe.
I was ten or eleven years old when this first aired. I was pissed as hell my older brother was out that day cause I almost missed the ending cause my mom dragged me along to go pick him up from hanging out with his friends.
Since you brought up WarCraft I have to say that StarCraft is also a great example a loss, at the end of the main campaign The Zerg and Kerrigan are on the top, The Protoss and the Terran must flee from the horror and defeat of the Zerg, heros that we fought with are betrayed and killed by the Zerg and then they stand on the top of the Koprulu Sector at the end, the StarCraft campaign is incredible in so many ways and is definitely something that people should experience at least once.
Letting your characters lose in the right way only makes that moment when they do manage to win that much better. While like you said the loss can help make other characters better because that’s how human beings are we don’t always win every single situation. When your characters just win all the dam time then they aren’t realistic and are not really learning. In avatar every loss meant something and elevated the story and truly helped sell the weight of these massive odds against our characters. Like they lost after the northern water battle twice with ba sing sei and then black sun.
I still remember as a kid so broken hearted at the invasion of black sun. Aang went through so much, and they finally invade the fire nation and they lose. Like, wow
The thing that you didn't really point out here that you could have is that the show kinda primes us to expect something to go wrong in these episodes. 1. We know that Azula knows about the invasion plan. 2. The episode is in the middle of the season. So even if you expected aang to defeat ozai you'd have expected him to escape or something. I don't think anybody expected these episodes to be the end of the series. Still great episodes.
I wanna tell y'all how much I thought this was a final episode. My dad was at work and he said he might be late. I was in the first 20 or so minutes so I told him don't rush because I wanted to finish the *finale* episode. This episode threw me for a loop! :D
2:02 I always wondered why the gang changed the date to defeat ozai, and now I remember. The invasion was that plan, and when it failed, they had no other plan, until Zuko gave them a new mission when telling his father’s plan
I'm sorry for mentioning one piece in a Avatar video,but one piece also does this just as well as Avatar, you haven't reached that point yet but you will see what I'm talking about,few hundred eps later
Rising of the shield hero did this very well too. I'm glad to see a strong variety of animated shows successfully navigating these hurdles, especially when dealing with relatable character who, if nothing else, we can't fault and relate too. I know, I know, "this is just like my animes" is a hell of a funny quote, but for real, its another great example of this type of writing being so powerful. Defeat is sometimes the most incredible motivator. Especially when you relate to the injustices that defeat can present. I'm glad you discuss this. It highlights a feature of media used less often than sometimes feels warranted in modern writing.
eh, i’d say it was missed potential in rotsh, they played t he it hand too fast in redeeming naofumi and the payoff just didn’t feel as satisfying cause of it, it wasn’t a meaningful incremental struggle, don’t get me wrong there was an incremental struggle, he did get defeated but it was too few and far between to be a real struggle. Azula beating the gaang was a real threat that kept coming, myne and the hero’s didn’t feel competent but lucky. also his struggles in proving himself by helping people around the kingdom didn’t actually play a part in his redemption in the publics eyes. He just had to reveal the popes corruption and the queen came in and absolved him, instead of a more nuanced and slow change in public perception of him. And since this all done in one season, it was great for a show that ended there, but then it continued without the initial hook
One of my favorite tidbits of the espide was Aang telling everybody 'Thank you all for being SO brave.' Theres just so much raw emotion in the delivery and the fact that he chose to say 'thank you' instead 'I'm sorry' says alot.
Between this episode and the Season 2 Finale, in both attempts it really does seem like major setbacks, it's such a tie in on why the Fall of the Earth Kingdom led to the failure at the day of Black Sun, but they had to try as it was the vulnerable moment for fire benders.
@@sasir2013 I know it happened to me too when the show was airing. I find it amazing cause they told us they were gonna lose and we were still surprised
@@simon-peterwilliamson2412 Well they also subverted us twice in the episode, first time when Aang bursts into the throne room, and then when we go underground, like the savvy fans may think "oh yeah Azula knew, but they didn't expect them to keep looking" and then get hit with Azula sitting there, knowing , yes, they kept looking
Another interesting thought I just realized: this episode is kind of like a mirror of the seige of the north in a way. Both of them are this huge attack on the capital of a nation, spurred on by secret knowledge obtained from the library. Both of them relied on the idea that victory could be achieved easily by taking advantage of an enemy unable to bend. And ultimately, both were always fated to end in failure (if Zhao was successful, he would've plunged the entire world into chaos without the moon, and the day of black sun was doomed from the moment Azula learned it was coming).
I grew up so attached to avatar & the walking dead. Even more attached because I used to watch it with the girl I was with & were living together at that time. So many memories … Thanks for shouting out the walking dead
The anticipation for this episode will always be peak in my opinion. Watching it as a kid I just assumed the show was ending. I had no way to know another season was coming so the loss hit extra hard
10:53 This is why I love the show Person of Interest. *⛔️SPOILER WARNING⛔️* The “good guys” lose at end of season 3. The show then spends the next 2 whole seasons surviving, regrouping and fighting back in small ways whenever they can.
i always feel like watching avatar help shaped my personality as a kid, i.guess its in the great writing since everyone still talking about it till now
I only watched and finished avatar a week or two ago. And when this episode came up i was fully anticipating the end of the show (i didnt look at the ep list in fear of spoilers) with this episode. So much so i wanted until i was all alone in my bed, popcorn in hand, waiting to see how it all ended. And then- a lost. I was shocked.
You are actually the best RUclipsr. I fucking love avatar and death note. I just saw your death note vidoes and I loved it now I found out you also talk about avatar. I’m going to be on your channel binging all these videos for awhile. 😂😂😂
I remember being young and at this point in these series rooting for Zuko very hard! I could see them turning Zuko in to a hero before my eyes. It’s the redemption arc we all want for ourselves
Good thing the fire nation never killes anybody (except Kataras mom for some reason). Imagine how meaningful this defeat would have been if anyone's life would have been at stake.
it’s cause it’s a kids show, they probably wouldn’t be able to get away with mass murder of characters that have been shown, even the genocide of the air nomads and karats mom were before the stories beginning and that was probably a hard sell to nick
Korra's problem was the reverse where she lost an almost comical number of times despite all the power she had. I would have liked it if the show gave her more victories in things she was good at (direct brute force fighting) while still allowing her to be defeated in things she wasn't initially good at (airbending, playing by rules, being diplomatic, keeping collateral damage to a minimum).
@@maximtsai1856 Bro I felt like I was being bratty for complaning about her losing so much but it really was that bad, she literally lost every single major boss fight for 4 seasons straight
I knew the Day of Black Sun would be a failure . . . Oh gees, NOW is the Day of Black Sun and we're only half way to Chapter 20 (soon revealed to be a 21 Chapter Book), and I doubt this is a 10 Chapter Book X3 "Salty about Subverting Expectations", there's no bigger fool than Ruin Johnson . . .
I think that the show hinted a lot that the final battle would occur on the day of the return of Sozin's comet. When I watched the book of fire the first time I never anticipated them to win on the day of the Black sun, here's why: 1) by the day of the Black sun Aang hasn't learned firebending. And before that the show had told dozens of times that the avatar needs to master all the four elements before defeating Ozai; 2) the show already established the Sozin's comet's return as the greatest threat to the world and to the main characters. And in such epic shows you expect to see the villains fighting at their highest power, not at their lowest.
What Avatar did very well was keep the Fire Nation as a real serious threat throughout the series, which is hard to do when the good guys need to win. And it's done by simply having the Fire Nation be full of people who want to win, which sounds simple but is incredibly hard to pull off narratively.
Avatar is the best example of a series showing how a show is not always about completing the final goal, it's about the journey you go through to get there, and the experiences you learn along the way. The ultimate goal is to stop fire lord Ozai before the comet comes. We already know he's going to be the final boss of the show in episode 7, very early on. The main cast of characters goes through a journey of literal hell to complete that task, with many!!!! setbacks. What happened in Ba Sing Se, and The Day of Black Sun truly made the series finale all the more satisfying. If Avatar was considered an anime, it would be in my top 3 of all time.
Zuko and Sokka REALLY made book 3 so much more amazing to me, imo they are the best characters in the show along with Iroh, though I feel It's not a particularly unpopular opinion
Here's the thing. I knew going into the Day of Black Sun that they'd lose, or at least suffer a stalemate. The narrative was primed from the beginning to have the final showdown during the comet, and the Day of Black Sun siege was set smack dab in the middle of book 3. There was no way they'd end the series with it, even with the narrative beats established in the episodes leading up to it.
From an audience perspective, it was to be expected that the series wouldnt end there because of the comet. Cartoons rarely end before the big bad threat is at least about to be used, and almost always must be full on overcome. Here the comet was nowhere near arriving. Still very good buildup for it regardless.
I actually believe that this was suppose to show that you can't cheat or run from destiny. If Aang had defeated the firelord within the eclipse destiny would been broken because he didn't fulfill the role of avatar by learning fire bending.
I strongly disagree with the subverting of expectations point. This should have been "We know that they know" because the Earth King has told Azula about the invasion. I always found it weird how dumb the gang is acting here, particularly in how they let Azula play with them for the 10 min eclipse.
None of the cast was there when the Earth King told them and the Earth King never mentioned that he told them the plans. We also never see all the details that the King tells them And considering how incompetent he was that information could have been widely inaccurate. And I know a much younger me wasn't thinking ahead like that especially considering everything that happened in between. If you were binging the series than that might stay in your mind but watching it while airing it has been months since then and I'm sure plenty of kids just assumed that without the full might of the Earth Kingdom the Fire Nation would have just assumed there was no little to no chance of an assault so at best they would have put up basic defenses.
@@bdf1006 yeah yeah.. I still think it was stupid. Like, I'm sorry, this invasion was hyped up like crazy, only for it to tremble on the circumstances set around it. Just have Azula or her henchmen kill the Earthking and have the scene were tells them earlier intentionally ambiguous so that the viewer isn't so far ahead as the protagonists.
There's a classic Elder Scrolls side game called _Battlespire_ and I think one of the things that makes it so compelling is that you're not some sort of chosen one, or OP character, you're just a student at a now ruined academy on another plane of existence trying to GTFO and reunite with your lover/classmate. On your plane-hopping quest, you have to talk to demons, demon lords, and pseudo-gods, rather than muscle through everything. You defeat the final boss by saying his True Name and banishing him long enough to get back to Earth/Nirn. And if you try to muscle through everything, I pray that you're good at hit-and-run tactics in video games where most of the enemies are faster than you.
I also had that feeling at the end of infinity war. When I saw Thor get the hit I thought it was it, just for Thanos to basically throw a Unni reverse card and win. The bad guy lost and half the people died! It was never an option in my mind for that to happen.
Oh yeah Infinity War was a great subversion since people expect movies to sort themselves out, shows you know are many episodes so a loss isn't the worst, there is still more, but a movie you go in thinking it is self-contained for the most part (ie random detail or easter egg comes back later but isn't the focal point of the original movie) and thus a movie ending with what is normally the mid-point or climatic thing that is about to be reversed by the heroes.. throws you off
DO: 1. Build up! 2. Character writing takes TIME to develop! 3. Show, don't tell! 4. Subvert expectations of the audience, without letting them down... 5. *PAY OFF!!* DO NOT: 1. Don't deliver vital information about the finale during the finale... 2. Don't betray your character's writing and motivation, most evil characters don't deserve to be redeemed... 3. Don't make them fight before the third act for no reason, everyone hates that 4. Don't make a "liar reveal" about the lie, nobody likes that... 5. Don't write a "we're not so different you and I..." line for the villain, please!!
Honestly, I'm not sure 8 minutes of no fire bending would be enough to liberate the whole earth kingdom. Bumi was able to do it to his one city because he is OP, but for the whole kingdom... Nah
@@juansebastianraadmeza9405 Even with all this he planned and waited. I love Bumi because he is OP but still relies on natural inn universe advantages like his neutral jin, waiting for the black sun and hiding his plan from overeager kids that could have possibly ruined it or leaked it.
I never wanted Zuko to go down. To me the Day Of Black Sun was telegraphed to be a defeat the moment we learn Azula learn about it the invasion back in the finale of season two. The whole of season three up until the Day Of Black Sun was Zuko getting everything he thought he wanted and learning it isn’t anything he actually needed. The Day Of Black Sun needed to be a route for the Gaang because it’s the final piece to Zuko’s puzzle. He’s the one who got the information that lit a fire under Aang’s ass to finally master firebending and confront his fear head on instead of running from it or trying to find a way around having to confront it. It’s the example of sometimes things don’t get better unless you really tackle the problem at its root. Which is firebending as a whole has gotten out of balance with the rest of the world they’ve forgotten so much of their history in exchange for power. The Avatar HAD to learn firebending and true firebending if he was going to restore balance to the world. Which means the Day Of Black Sun could never be his victory, it could only ever be Zukos
Even dbz at some point from the old dragon ball sagas. Had some heroes being killed off, especially in the Saiyan saga. Truly dark there. Having villains so off world and powerful.
Sorry for spoiling the fun, but for me ATLA is near perfect, but Black Sun is one of it's weakest moments. Team Good Guys out of blue decided they want to go for a suicidal mission, because that's what sieging Fire Nation capital was. What was their plan? That Aang will defeat Ozai in his home and the war just ends? If so, then it would be much easier to sneak into the palace with small group than storming it in open battle. Also, they were hoping that Ozai would be seating calm in his pajamas sipping morning tea while there's a frontal attack on the outside? No, even if he didn't know anything about incoming siege, he would hide in a buncker long before Aang would be able to start looking for him. Besides that the Eclipse was only 8 minutes long and even if plan would work out perfectly than there's still a lot of things than can go wrong. Non benders can be tough opponents so why they hoped that temporaly powerless firebender would be an easy catch? Especially with time window that tight and whole army on his side? Also, Ba Sing Se was great and meaningful defeat, why we had to repeat it? But worse?
Before we have started streaming everything people could have really that this is the last episode. With streaming you see there are more coming after this.
And in season 2, Iroh told Zuko he would never be able to understand how to to use Lightning until he dealt with the immense inner turmoil he had within him. Well here Zuko finally made peace with the fact that his actions in Ba Sing Sae were wrong, that he has always been a victim of mental and physical abuse, and that he has had his honor the entire damn time and doesn’t need his father’s approval. And only when he finally makes peace with all of that, does he at long last confront his abuser and shoot the lightning for the first time. Absolutely incredible.
Actually you misunderstood what happened. Zuko cannot generate lightning due to his inner conflict, which is why Iroh taught him to REDIRECT lightning, which is what Zuko does in the rest of the show. Zuko never himself makes lightning, just redirects it
To be fair Bolin and Mako were just essentially sports stars prior to meeting her. Like they are skilled sure but they fight for sport and entertainment not actual rules. Even if you make the argument they had a background of being street urchins and working with the gangs a few times they are still inexperienced kids. It's only after meeting korra did they actually start to progress more in a sense like Bolin learning lava bending. Besides on another note korra was also screwed by the network and the writing. At the end of book 1 korra was at her technical strongest with all elements unlocked and remained so till the end of season 2...but they couldn't just make her stronger without breaking the system. So instead they had to make her weaker. As much as we dislike them losing I'm positive if each boom for character had her learn or gain new powers then it would just seem worse than what we did get.
You know what the irony about this, it was foreshadowed of sozin comet and how the fire nation relied on it for them to win the war, but Aang and the others did the same thing to them. Ozai, Azula and the fire nation lost the war at the end.
I just love how Zuko could've killed his father with his own lightning, but doesn't and states that the Avatar was fated to do it, that scene is burned into my brain and I love it.
It's definitely one of the most meaningful moments in the series. I still remember having my jaw drop whenever Zuko just redirects it and vanishes, ohh what I wouldn't give to watch the series for the very first time again.
Not only is it the avatar's fate to do it but Zuko killing his father would lead to more issues. It would mostly be seen as the prince killing the firelord to try to covet the throne and take it for himself unfairly. Politically, it would be a disaster.
The only way for a peaceful resolution is for the avatar to do it.
@@naruchancutie1 yes Iroh. 😆
It also adds to it, when Iroh said he shouldn't end Ozai either, because of how history will look at the fire nation.
@@antithoughtpolice7497 as Iroh said, history would see it as senseless violence a brother killing a brother or a son killing a father to grab power.
I really liked this episode because it showed the gaang looking at what was essentially a shortcut. For sokka, he wasn’t ready to be a leader and jumped into the role only for his father to take over, katara believing that this would be the end of the war, and even aang not having to master the elements as the enemy would be left powerless. None were ready for the war, still in need of growth and maturation, but when presented with an “easy way” they immediately took it. These episodes showed to me that the easy way isn’t always the best way and not to put all my eggs in one basket so to speak
true.
I disagree with the Sokka thing. He was completely ready and his plan is why they got so far in the first place and had it not been for the earth king telling Azula disguised as a Kyoshi about the eclipse, the plan would have worked. He was just a kid so getting anxiety about talking to essentially an army (more accurately, a Militia) is understandable and even by the last episode Sokka was never talking to a group that large about soemthing as important as a plan to take down the fire nation. When it comes to Sokka as a war general he was perfect! He failed not bc he wasn’t good enough but bc Azula was.
@@nerdthatcantfit1079 that kinda goes into my point. It was a good plan but that was the only plan he had. He wasn’t prepared for a diversion, and was outsmarted as a result. Regardless of whether or not the attack was known, which I do admit is an integral part to the failure, the plan admittedly wasn’t very sound. His intent was to take out the fire lord on his weakest day so why assume he would be chilling at home. Then there’s also the fact that his father had to take command of the army in order to organize the attack. The whole day seemed to strengthen and mature him to the tactical genius we see at sozins comet
If it ended here we would've never got ember island players 😂
@@daa589 definitely the best byproduct bar none
It's great how this episode was able to give Zuko another chance to step as a hero, in spite of joining Azula in defeating Aang and his friends in Ba Sing Se.
That scene in Ba Sing Se was a twist I didn't see coming ngl. They rllllllly had me in the first half there.
And, for the first time, he perfectly articulates everything that makes Ozai and _his_ ideal for him and their nation objectionable.
Day of black sun is on par with the actual ending of the series, it's so good.
Avatar did this so well as opposed to other shows by softly showing how the fire nation was just more well planned from their experience with war as opposed to other shows where the hero loses because of straight up incompetence like a lot of CW hero shows do or just an unrealistic set up like the later seasons of Walking Dead. I love that about Avatar because it made you feel a part of it. You felt the loss whole heartedly instead of just being pissed off by lazy writing.
Underrated comment right here! Couldn't have said it better myself.
@@07Flash11MRC Appreciate it 😁
The post-governor stuff was whack, but you gotta admit the whisperers were sick and did come off as a threat that would’ve been there the whole time
@MrMitchbow Yeah the Whisperer concept was pretty great. I definitely liked that arch quite a bit. Then the last arch started off well but then they just repeated the same formula they've been doing since the beginning but in a very lackluster and lazy kind of way
The only reason why the fire nation won was because the earth king leaked the invasion plans to azula
Another genius part is the return of impactful minor characters. The northern air temple, the swamp dudes and other friends. This is usually only done at the conclusion.
The fact that it's only the gaang taking on Ozai is a huge and meaningful contrast. These are mainly personal battles, and they always had been. This also makes their loss at the day of black sun initially hit hard but retroactively feel proper. It makes the real ending feel like it always should have been the real ending (ignoring the lion turtle part).
I wonder how much of it was planned and how much falls into place in hindsight.
"Another genius part is the return of impactful minor characters. The northern air temple, the swamp dudes and other friends."
Also a good way to remind the audience of the inventor, and how his latest invention was discovered. "This defeat will grant us many victories."
The series was written in its entirety before the first episode ever aired, which is why it's so damn good and cohesive
It's truly genius. How did the writers know that we would want to see all our favorite characters coming together and fighting an epic battle side by side? Can they read our minds or something?
@@g0t3nks dude I wish more shows would do this ong
You kinda had to not be paying attention to zuko in the first half of book 3 to think he was enjoying being back home, the show made it very clear that he couldn't stand it and that zuko was going to leave it behind on his own terms
the question was how long would it take for him to realize it
I interpret enjoying more in the line of "having got what he wanted" and "living the royal live in the quasi capital of the world" compared to Aang constantly running for his life and living hand to mouth, day by day. Which is the better life at first glance.
I feel like I had doubts ever since Azula found out about the eclipse plan. There's no way they were going to succeed with the Fire Nation having prepared beforehand.
True, there was no way they would win with her knowing in advance, but I (and probably a lot of others) completely forget about that one line upon first viewing.
Thats called foreshadowing. And its what separates mediocre plot points from good plot points.
One other brilliant aspects of this episode is how much sense the failure actually makes in-universe. The show spends so much time prepping for this battle and priming the audience for a victory, that it gets the audience to ignore the massive, glaring flaw with Sokka's plan. The fire nation would obviously know about the eclipse and be extra prepared for it. Avatar or not, it would be the perfect moment to attempt an uprising, so they'd likely be on higher alert than almost any other day. Both the audience and the characters are so distracted by how perfect of an opportunity the day of black sun is, that they don't consider the bad guys realize that too.
The fire nation actually didn’t seem to realize this until the earth king gave away their plans to Azula (thinking she was a Kyoshi warrior).
Granted, Ozai probably was prepared all along, but at the very least, it shows that even someone as cunning as Azula was caught off guard by the audacity of this plan.
i still want to say azula had a huge factor in knowing when day of black sun would happen. and not to mention shes also a prodigy so even with one tidbit of info she would correctly guess when it would happen. she hard carried the fire nation and you can see it. while yeah ozai was powerful, she did all of the ground work including tipping off the firelord that they were planning an assault that day.
I also love this episode because this is one, if not the only, episode where the show actually showed how powerful the fire lord is (at least before the final fight). He only needed a glimpse of the sun to be able to whip up fucking lightning in an instant.
Since I watched it on netflix, I kind of expected they wouldn't win since there were more episodes after. But I really enjoyed seeing Zuko facing his father and overcoming his own struggles
Yes, that would be the case, but we previously watched it on TV. And being in a third world country made me even clueless about how many episodes left.
Same boat here, so did kinda lesson the impact of the loss, but still great episodes like most of the series. Kind of a flaw in this new age of streaming, but at my age I have other issues with character wins and losses in general.
That only became an issue thanks to modern day streaming. Back when it was airing and we were just kids tuning in, we didn't know how many episodes were after or if there even would be.
Yeah I knew that they wouldn't kill the firelord, but I was not expecting them to fail this miserably
I watched it recently on Netflix, but thanks to never looking at the episode list, I was able to have a more similar experience to watching it on tv
It's all about restraint really
It speaks of confidant writing, and that the writers trust their audience. It's also a good lesson to the kids watching that defeat happens
I remember how hyped I was as a kid for this episode and I was just in utter shock. When I did a rewatch I Netflix , I saw the warning signs that this was going to fail and I understood it much better. Such a great twist!
I really gotta give ATLA a shot, been meaning to watch it, especially with yours and others praise of it.
I don't say this lightly - ATLA is probably my favorite series of all time, you absolutely should!
Did you ever watch it?
I would give near everything in the world to be able to see this series for the first time again. I envy you.
you really should, it starts kiddy and dumb, not gonna lie, but just for the first few episodes.
I kinda agree, they aren’t the best episodes (though still very good) but they do a an important job of showing that they were still just kids before being thrust into being literal child soldiers. I also think they establish all the main characters and what they are all about really well.
I remember originally that the Day of Black Sun episodes leaked about 6 months in advance of their ultimate air date, before even the episodes that preceded it in the story. After watching the defeat, I thought maybe the leak was actually a high-quality fake.
Gosh I love this account, first you talk about avatar, and now you’re talking about breaking bad and invincible 😩😩
Happy to see you enjoying the content, plenty of variety planned for the future as well! :)
Yeah, I felt glad when I saw that too
Looking back, the plan had a critically underbaked issue: what happens after the fire lord is gone? They didn’t have a Zuko - a rightful heir to the throne - to step in at the time. They would have created a huge power vacuum that would snap close and a lot of upset soldiers still loyal to the fire lord
I mean yeah, but that's a lot better than a cohesive/non power vacuum fire nation during the day of black sun.
Like, you probably can't destroy them entirely but they didn't manage to do that in the true finale anyways. Zuko was discredited as heir multiple times anyways so it's not like he's a rightful heir.
Not that we really want one? Like, the current fire nation is bad right? And we've seen in avatar that kind rulers don't make a messed up system ok
@@solsystem1342 Azula would have just taken Ozai's place as Firelord. She would have filled the same role and been just as much of a threat.
I disagree with your point about wanting to see Zuko fall.
He wasn't enjoying his life as hero of the Fire Nation, he was just as conflicted as before -- more so even, because he had to betray the one person who was always on his side.
That's what Zuko's arc was building up to: realizing he was on the wrong side the entire time.
We didn't want to see him fail, we wanted to see him change his path.
And as for the battle as a whole, it was destined to fail. The premise was cheating. Aang's mission was to master all four elements and dethrone the Fire Lord to end the war. By making a move against Ozai while fire bending was neutralized, Aang was cheating on his mission. The defeat at the battle was a karmic punishment for Aang and the others trying to take a shortcut to victory.
I don't know if its cheating, its just strategy and opportunism. The fire nation would capitalize in something similar like only firebending working for a while.
Yeah aang such a cheater not letting the barbaric warlord fight at full power. Poor little Ozai
Mf said using a strategy to win a war against people who genocided an entire culture is cheating 💀💀💀
@@bevvvy1374 tripping balls hard
I agree with all of this except the cheating, it was just good strategy
My problem with a lot of losses is that they aren't _this_ satisfying. They weren't built in a way that plays correctly with the losses -- a lot of the time it exposes the hands of the writers in an ugly way.
For example, in certain JRPG or manga series, the protagonist can't win because the story would be over then -- you can see that that's why they lost, not because it's a natural build-up of the storytelling. Compare that to this one where you can _feel_ that something is going to go wrong, and it went wrong in the most logical way that resonates emotionally. Now, contrast that with a manga where the protagonist lost just because they need to keep it going.
Losses and victories are storytelling tools, but they're still under the same rule of storytelling in that they have to be engaging, they have to make sense emotionally, and they have to be used at the correct time with the right build up. I'd be bored of a story where the losses are because the writers need them to as much as I'd be bored of a story where they win all the time because they want it to. Context is important, and it has to be built, it has to be _earned_ .
My favourite losses in video games are ones where you couls acrually win if your cracked
Heavy agree, some shows just have a loss for sake of not ending the story.. while others cover that with a thematic reason why the loss happens..
No one ever talk about how Day of Black Sun is what happened during Tet offensive of North Vietnam against the America in 1968?
North Vietnam used the Tet holiday (which is Lunar New Year) to simultanously rise in multiple cities of South Vietnam, while South Vietnam army was celebrating the new year and wasn't preparing for an attack. The North Vietnam was sure to end the war there. North Vietnam successfully took controls of the big cities, including Saigon, but couldn't hold them when the Americans intervened. Most of the soldiers were then captured or killed. It took North Vietnam many years to recover due to heavy casualty, but also put a fear deep inside America, despite it's failure.
Ho Chi Minh died in the year after, 1969, some says he was too sad about the failure, but at the same time, protests were all over America. And they fled in 1973, leading to Vietnam reunification at 1975, with the North victory.
I hadn’t really developed an analytical eye the first time I saw this series; I never realized how much of a subversion it was to have the heroes lose this battle that had been built up as practically a series finale. (Mostly because I didn’t catch the show live and had to watch it on Netflix later, so I knew there was more show afterwards.)
Many stories these days “subvert expectations” simply by doing the opposite of what the audience expects, and that’s still what Day of the Black Sun did. But what this show did that many others don’t is take the time to CREATE those expectations within the audience, in the first place. Many other shows simply assume what their audience is expecting, and don’t make an effort to curate those expectations to fit the story they want to tell. That’s the lesson I’ve gathered from this video, at least. Thank you for sharing your observations!
I was old enough and well versed in tropes when i first watched the show to know Zuko would be part of team avatar as early as the storm (where the first hints at it appear). With that in mind, i was not waiting for Zuko to be punished during the eclipse, but instead for the inevitable: his turncoat to team avatar. The subtext was there, but it was a bit too subtle for the youngest members of the audience to pick up on; Zuko was not enjoy his life as a prince that he desired ever since his banishment. At best, he enjoyed the company of Mai, but after traveling the world and hunting the avatar for so long, he learned of the horrors of his home and felt nothing but guilt. THAT was his punishment: guilt (and Iroh's cold shoulder). Not something physical, but something karmic.
If anything, the mirror between Zuko and team avatar (POV Sokka) for the episode is the first hint at defeat. As Sokka is preparing for war, Zuko is dressing down (from political/military to casual). Ignoring the knowledge or lack thereof for a raid, a high-ranking fire bender (like the prince) would not be removing protective or authoritative layers in an environment where they expect a possibility physical danger. Maybe the nation is brainwashed, but if there would ever be a coup or assassination attempt, it would be on the day with no bending, as it greatly reduces the threat Ozai could put out, even if he was physically trained for close combat. The fact such armor was removed suggests 2 things: first, Zuko and his close circle of political hierarchy are in a personal private space, and second, the group is confident no threat can reach them, despite the lack of bending. For the second point to be true, it implies knowledge of the raid, along with counter measures in place, such as the separate bunker in which they are currently hunkering down and the ghost town occupied only by soldiers that is meant to keep the raid distracted, if not completely neutralizing them (such as capturing the entire force as POWs; exactly what we see save for team avatar and the young who could escape on appa). At the start of the episode, the audience knows none of that, but it remains there as a hint hidden in plain sight. The shot alone implies a sense of calm contrary to the big military operation we know is planned. The fact the shot exists when and where it does was an intentional choice by the creative team, which is the meta-analysis to explain why the contrast makes the scene feel so uneasy, despite the hopeful projected win. Even if the audience does not pick up on the why through the analysis, they most certainly will pick up on the how subconsciously, which is what creates the unease.
I feel what makes Day of Black Sun work is how its set up. There's a thing that gives the heroes an advantage and all the allies from across the series have all come together at once to strike the main bad guys base. It's a very typical way to end a show, especially one aimed at kids like Avatar was. But none of what we expected happened. The Fire Nation knew the whole time, and the eclipse wasn't enough (which is a fantastic subversion of the whole "win button phenomenon" trope)
However, none of it would matter if not for the consequences. The heroes definitively lost, and Aang and the other kids are at their absolute lowest point for the rest of the series. It's a ripple effect. I guarantee you they wouldn't have accepted Zuko into the group if this didn't happen. Not to mention for the finale, they cut it so close they have to wing it DURING Sozin's Comet, even though the whole show kept saying they had to end things before it came.
Also fun is for a the later part of ATLA the "win before Sozin's comet" thing was piled on with "Aang can't go into the Avatar state" which.. was the reason he won in the end anyways, he legit would have lost/died if he didn't reunlock the Avatar state
The only issue I have with this two parters is that there was still a half season left,so you know before the battle even starts that it will end in failure.
I'd have to disagree, this may be down to me being much younger back then and a lot less in tune with the internet, but I never went in with the thought "there are more episodes after, so this will for sure be a set back". There could have been an epilogue, there could have been another fight against the firelord himself etc. Though again, I don't recall how much information was available going into the episode originally.
And that's why I usually Avoid looking how many episodes/chapters there is left. I can't see it and just leave without imagining the results of the fight/war
Well the show wasn't always on Netflix.
I was rewatching the series for the nth time, but with another friend of mine - who was completely new for this series (basically a guy know never watched an English series).
I told this was the last episode of the series, which he completely believed. He was fully geared up to watch the finale (allocating time, buying chips etc), but as the episodes unrolled, his expectations completely shattered. every scene was keeping on the toes not knowing whether Aang win or lose.
I am jealous that I couldn't have this experience, when watching for the first time (watched as kid and my TV channel didn't air in the proper sequence).
I remember watching this for the first time, I think I had to be 11 or 12 and I didn't know it wasn't the last episodes then. The show actually had a lot of mini hiatus-es when it was first airing too so it was hard to tell. Episodes would be months apart sometimes and I never knew when it'd be back until Nickelodeon advertised it. There was an 8 month gap between Day of Black Sun and the rest of the show too. It was an intense time for me lmao
The irony with the World of Warcraft example is that "the bad guys win and meaningfully affects the setting" is the canon ending for the original Warcraft game. The Horde decimates the Kingdom of Stormwind which leads to the creation of the Alliance of Lordaeron and events of Warcraft 2.
The alliance are the bad guys though. Horde are just freedom fighters
@@Relisoc4 Not for the first and second great war. The horde arrived as foreign conquerors from a portal.
Why dont you have more subs? atleast 100k, I just discovered this channel and its a fucking gold mine.
Thank you for the kind words, welcome aboard! :)
It is also worth noting the truly devious and genius foreshadowing for this event. We do see the moment their surprise has been blown (in a passing comment to Azula from the Earth King), but it’s revealed right before the finale of season 2. And in all the chaos you (or at least, me the first time around) completely forget that the plan has indeed been compromised, and so upon watching these two episodes, you are exhilarated, waiting to see Aang take down the fire lord. But once you see that the fire lord was prepared, it hits you and you remember that little detail of Azula finding out about the plan. It’s just subtle enough to not stick around in your mind as the gaang prepares their attack.
That scene of the blimps and not just the small ones but the big ones for the first time. I remember being little thinking about that first technological and comparing it to ww1 ww2 and just shitting my pants while sokka and the gaang shit themselves the same.
I have this theory that the invasion’s failure and Katara being burned by accident in the season 1 episode The Disertar was the spirit world punishing Aang for cheating the cycle.
You could also draw parallels between DOBS to the invasion at the end of season one, where both situations were made possible by the use of knowledge stolen from the spirits to get a loophole against another group's bending.
Fortunately for the kids, their loophole didn't require doing anything bad to trigger so the karmic blowback wasn't as severe.
Watching Koroto's mystery shack and not having a 50 min video is very strange for me
Haha, yeah, I've kind of established that as a norm, haven't I? 😅
I was ten or eleven years old when this first aired. I was pissed as hell my older brother was out that day cause I almost missed the ending cause my mom dragged me along to go pick him up from hanging out with his friends.
Since you brought up WarCraft I have to say that StarCraft is also a great example a loss, at the end of the main campaign The Zerg and Kerrigan are on the top, The Protoss and the Terran must flee from the horror and defeat of the Zerg, heros that we fought with are betrayed and killed by the Zerg and then they stand on the top of the Koprulu Sector at the end, the StarCraft campaign is incredible in so many ways and is definitely something that people should experience at least once.
Letting your characters lose in the right way only makes that moment when they do manage to win that much better. While like you said the loss can help make other characters better because that’s how human beings are we don’t always win every single situation. When your characters just win all the dam time then they aren’t realistic and are not really learning. In avatar every loss meant something and elevated the story and truly helped sell the weight of these massive odds against our characters. Like they lost after the northern water battle twice with ba sing sei and then black sun.
I still remember as a kid so broken hearted at the invasion of black sun. Aang went through so much, and they finally invade the fire nation and they lose. Like, wow
The thing that you didn't really point out here that you could have is that the show kinda primes us to expect something to go wrong in these episodes. 1. We know that Azula knows about the invasion plan. 2. The episode is in the middle of the season. So even if you expected aang to defeat ozai you'd have expected him to escape or something. I don't think anybody expected these episodes to be the end of the series. Still great episodes.
about number 2, you don't know that when it's airing on TV (or if you don't check the episode's list beforehand on streaming services)
I wanna tell y'all how much I thought this was a final episode. My dad was at work and he said he might be late. I was in the first 20 or so minutes so I told him don't rush because I wanted to finish the *finale* episode. This episode threw me for a loop! :D
2:02 I always wondered why the gang changed the date to defeat ozai, and now I remember.
The invasion was that plan, and when it failed, they had no other plan, until Zuko gave them a new mission when telling his father’s plan
I'm sorry for mentioning one piece in a Avatar video,but one piece also does this just as well as Avatar, you haven't reached that point yet but you will see what I'm talking about,few hundred eps later
Can't wait! Though "few hundred eps later" is One Piece in a nutshell, isn't it 😅
@@Koroto Yeah lol
@@Koroto especially with all the foreshadowing Oda puts in his story
Alabasta and wano
Rising of the shield hero did this very well too. I'm glad to see a strong variety of animated shows successfully navigating these hurdles, especially when dealing with relatable character who, if nothing else, we can't fault and relate too. I know, I know, "this is just like my animes" is a hell of a funny quote, but for real, its another great example of this type of writing being so powerful. Defeat is sometimes the most incredible motivator. Especially when you relate to the injustices that defeat can present. I'm glad you discuss this. It highlights a feature of media used less often than sometimes feels warranted in modern writing.
eh, i’d say it was missed potential in rotsh, they played t he it hand too fast in redeeming naofumi and the payoff just didn’t feel as satisfying cause of it, it wasn’t a meaningful incremental struggle, don’t get me wrong there was an incremental struggle, he did get defeated but it was too few and far between to be a real struggle. Azula beating the gaang was a real threat that kept coming, myne and the hero’s didn’t feel competent but lucky. also his struggles in proving himself by helping people around the kingdom didn’t actually play a part in his redemption in the publics eyes. He just had to reveal the popes corruption and the queen came in and absolved him, instead of a more nuanced and slow change in public perception of him. And since this all done in one season, it was great for a show that ended there, but then it continued without the initial hook
Though I feel like the whole idea about MC needing to carry the other 3 heroes in the main battles because for some reason they suck, kinda stinks.
More proof that ATLA is a masterpiece (as if we needed it lol)
One of my favorite tidbits of the espide was Aang telling everybody 'Thank you all for being SO brave.' Theres just so much raw emotion in the delivery and the fact that he chose to say 'thank you' instead 'I'm sorry' says alot.
I'm glad I found your channel even when it only had 3k subs, oh how you've grown.
Good work, keep it up man!
While we lost the battle but we finally gained Zuko. Probably the most satisfying ending I’ve seen in an episode
Zuko better be lucky iroh taught him how to redirect lightning, cause he'd be a dead man against ozai on that day
Between this episode and the Season 2 Finale, in both attempts it really does seem like major setbacks, it's such a tie in on why the Fall of the Earth Kingdom led to the failure at the day of Black Sun, but they had to try as it was the vulnerable moment for fire benders.
To be honest they literally told us they were gonna lose when azula was told about the day of black sun by the earth kingdom
yeah, but watching an episode a week that's really easy to forget
@@sasir2013 I know it happened to me too when the show was airing. I find it amazing cause they told us they were gonna lose and we were still surprised
@@simon-peterwilliamson2412 Exactly
@@simon-peterwilliamson2412 Well they also subverted us twice in the episode, first time when Aang bursts into the throne room, and then when we go underground, like the savvy fans may think "oh yeah Azula knew, but they didn't expect them to keep looking" and then get hit with Azula sitting there, knowing , yes, they kept looking
Another interesting thought I just realized: this episode is kind of like a mirror of the seige of the north in a way. Both of them are this huge attack on the capital of a nation, spurred on by secret knowledge obtained from the library. Both of them relied on the idea that victory could be achieved easily by taking advantage of an enemy unable to bend. And ultimately, both were always fated to end in failure (if Zhao was successful, he would've plunged the entire world into chaos without the moon, and the day of black sun was doomed from the moment Azula learned it was coming).
I grew up so attached to avatar & the walking dead. Even more attached because I used to watch it with the girl I was with & were living together at that time. So many memories … Thanks for shouting out the walking dead
The anticipation for this episode will always be peak in my opinion. Watching it as a kid I just assumed the show was ending. I had no way to know another season was coming so the loss hit extra hard
It’s simple, you give me good analysis of my favorite tv show, I subscribe
10:53 This is why I love the show Person of Interest.
*⛔️SPOILER WARNING⛔️*
The “good guys” lose at end of season 3. The show then spends the next 2 whole seasons surviving, regrouping and fighting back in small ways whenever they can.
that's IT I'm rewatching this show soon.
Go for it! 🙌
@@Koroto I did. I watched it all in like a week and a half if that lol
I was already super impressed with the quality of writing. After this twist I felt that they reached God level.
i always feel like watching avatar help shaped my personality as a kid, i.guess its in the great writing since everyone still talking about it till now
i was more exicited for this than any of the important exams i had
I only watched and finished avatar a week or two ago. And when this episode came up i was fully anticipating the end of the show (i didnt look at the ep list in fear of spoilers) with this episode. So much so i wanted until i was all alone in my bed, popcorn in hand, waiting to see how it all ended.
And then- a lost. I was shocked.
Nobody wanted to see Zuko go down since The Storm, we all wanted him to join Aang and co.
Despite the main character losing, this episode was 10/10
You are actually the best RUclipsr. I fucking love avatar and death note. I just saw your death note vidoes and I loved it now I found out you also talk about avatar. I’m going to be on your channel binging all these videos for awhile. 😂😂😂
I remember being young and at this point in these series rooting for Zuko very hard! I could see them turning Zuko in to a hero before my eyes. It’s the redemption arc we all want for ourselves
Good thing the fire nation never killes anybody (except Kataras mom for some reason). Imagine how meaningful this defeat would have been if anyone's life would have been at stake.
it’s cause it’s a kids show, they probably wouldn’t be able to get away with mass murder of characters that have been shown, even the genocide of the air nomads and karats mom were before the stories beginning and that was probably a hard sell to nick
“There is always been one tool that I found incredibly fascinating, The main character losing”
Go watch Korra & say that again 😂
Korra's problem was the reverse where she lost an almost comical number of times despite all the power she had. I would have liked it if the show gave her more victories in things she was good at (direct brute force fighting) while still allowing her to be defeated in things she wasn't initially good at (airbending, playing by rules, being diplomatic, keeping collateral damage to a minimum).
@@maximtsai1856 Bro I felt like I was being bratty for complaning about her losing so much but it really was that bad, she literally lost every single major boss fight for 4 seasons straight
I knew the Day of Black Sun would be a failure . . . Oh gees, NOW is the Day of Black Sun and we're only half way to Chapter 20 (soon revealed to be a 21 Chapter Book), and I doubt this is a 10 Chapter Book X3
"Salty about Subverting Expectations", there's no bigger fool than Ruin Johnson . . .
late comment for the algorithm. If you see this, I love finding out that you also do Avatar content! (came from AOT)
Great, now I have to binge watch the whole series 😅
I think that the show hinted a lot that the final battle would occur on the day of the return of Sozin's comet. When I watched the book of fire the first time I never anticipated them to win on the day of the Black sun, here's why:
1) by the day of the Black sun Aang hasn't learned firebending. And before that the show had told dozens of times that the avatar needs to master all the four elements before defeating Ozai;
2) the show already established the Sozin's comet's return as the greatest threat to the world and to the main characters. And in such epic shows you expect to see the villains fighting at their highest power, not at their lowest.
What Avatar did very well was keep the Fire Nation as a real serious threat throughout the series, which is hard to do when the good guys need to win. And it's done by simply having the Fire Nation be full of people who want to win, which sounds simple but is incredibly hard to pull off narratively.
Avatar is the best example of a series showing how a show is not always about completing the final goal, it's about the journey you go through to get there, and the experiences you learn along the way. The ultimate goal is to stop fire lord Ozai before the comet comes. We already know he's going to be the final boss of the show in episode 7, very early on. The main cast of characters goes through a journey of literal hell to complete that task, with many!!!! setbacks. What happened in Ba Sing Se, and The Day of Black Sun truly made the series finale all the more satisfying. If Avatar was considered an anime, it would be in my top 3 of all time.
i legit forgot that there was still half a season to go because of the build up
Zuko and Sokka REALLY made book 3 so much more amazing to me, imo they are the best characters in the show along with Iroh, though I feel It's not a particularly unpopular opinion
In rwby the protagonist have lose 2 times one in season 3 and one in season 8
Here's the thing. I knew going into the Day of Black Sun that they'd lose, or at least suffer a stalemate. The narrative was primed from the beginning to have the final showdown during the comet, and the Day of Black Sun siege was set smack dab in the middle of book 3. There was no way they'd end the series with it, even with the narrative beats established in the episodes leading up to it.
the reason Infinity War and Endgame was so good is because the heroes LOST in infinity war.
This is one of the best show ever even though being 20 years old
Avatar has yet to be topped.
Haikyu in a sense. No spoilers, but if you know you know.
From an audience perspective, it was to be expected that the series wouldnt end there because of the comet.
Cartoons rarely end before the big bad threat is at least about to be used, and almost always must be full on overcome.
Here the comet was nowhere near arriving.
Still very good buildup for it regardless.
I actually believe that this was suppose to show that you can't cheat or run from destiny. If Aang had defeated the firelord within the eclipse destiny would been broken because he didn't fulfill the role of avatar by learning fire bending.
This was happening right on episode 10 which could have easily been a series finale if they just went with a smaller season for book 3.
I strongly disagree with the subverting of expectations point. This should have been "We know that they know" because the Earth King has told Azula about the invasion. I always found it weird how dumb the gang is acting here, particularly in how they let Azula play with them for the 10 min eclipse.
I don't remember, did the Earth King tell them about that?...
None of the cast was there when the Earth King told them and the Earth King never mentioned that he told them the plans. We also never see all the details that the King tells them And considering how incompetent he was that information could have been widely inaccurate. And I know a much younger me wasn't thinking ahead like that especially considering everything that happened in between. If you were binging the series than that might stay in your mind but watching it while airing it has been months since then and I'm sure plenty of kids just assumed that without the full might of the Earth Kingdom the Fire Nation would have just assumed there was no little to no chance of an assault so at best they would have put up basic defenses.
@@bdf1006 yeah yeah.. I still think it was stupid. Like, I'm sorry, this invasion was hyped up like crazy, only for it to tremble on the circumstances set around it. Just have Azula or her henchmen kill the Earthking and have the scene were tells them earlier intentionally ambiguous so that the viewer isn't so far ahead as the protagonists.
I'm a simple person
I see yet another ATLA video essay
I click
Crossroads of Destiny was also a great example
There's a classic Elder Scrolls side game called _Battlespire_ and I think one of the things that makes it so compelling is that you're not some sort of chosen one, or OP character, you're just a student at a now ruined academy on another plane of existence trying to GTFO and reunite with your lover/classmate. On your plane-hopping quest, you have to talk to demons, demon lords, and pseudo-gods, rather than muscle through everything. You defeat the final boss by saying his True Name and banishing him long enough to get back to Earth/Nirn.
And if you try to muscle through everything, I pray that you're good at hit-and-run tactics in video games where most of the enemies are faster than you.
I also had that feeling at the end of infinity war. When I saw Thor get the hit I thought it was it, just for Thanos to basically throw a Unni reverse card and win. The bad guy lost and half the people died! It was never an option in my mind for that to happen.
Oh yeah Infinity War was a great subversion since people expect movies to sort themselves out, shows you know are many episodes so a loss isn't the worst, there is still more, but a movie you go in thinking it is self-contained for the most part (ie random detail or easter egg comes back later but isn't the focal point of the original movie) and thus a movie ending with what is normally the mid-point or climatic thing that is about to be reversed by the heroes.. throws you off
DO:
1. Build up!
2. Character writing takes TIME to develop!
3. Show, don't tell!
4. Subvert expectations of the audience, without letting them down...
5. *PAY OFF!!*
DO NOT:
1. Don't deliver vital information about the finale during the finale...
2. Don't betray your character's writing and motivation, most evil characters don't deserve to be redeemed...
3. Don't make them fight before the third act for no reason, everyone hates that
4. Don't make a "liar reveal" about the lie, nobody likes that...
5. Don't write a "we're not so different you and I..." line for the villain, please!!
They coulda used the time of the black sun to liberate the earth kingdom, but instead used on a doomed counter attack
Honestly, I'm not sure 8 minutes of no fire bending would be enough to liberate the whole earth kingdom. Bumi was able to do it to his one city because he is OP, but for the whole kingdom... Nah
@@leritykay8911 also, omashu is way smaller and has height advantage compared to the huge and plain terrain of ba sing sae
It wasn't an invasion, it was an assassination attempt. About what 8 minutes are worth.
@@juansebastianraadmeza9405 Even with all this he planned and waited. I love Bumi because he is OP but still relies on natural inn universe advantages like his neutral jin, waiting for the black sun and hiding his plan from overeager kids that could have possibly ruined it or leaked it.
I never wanted Zuko to go down. To me the Day Of Black Sun was telegraphed to be a defeat the moment we learn Azula learn about it the invasion back in the finale of season two. The whole of season three up until the Day Of Black Sun was Zuko getting everything he thought he wanted and learning it isn’t anything he actually needed. The Day Of Black Sun needed to be a route for the Gaang because it’s the final piece to Zuko’s puzzle. He’s the one who got the information that lit a fire under Aang’s ass to finally master firebending and confront his fear head on instead of running from it or trying to find a way around having to confront it. It’s the example of sometimes things don’t get better unless you really tackle the problem at its root. Which is firebending as a whole has gotten out of balance with the rest of the world they’ve forgotten so much of their history in exchange for power. The Avatar HAD to learn firebending and true firebending if he was going to restore balance to the world. Which means the Day Of Black Sun could never be his victory, it could only ever be Zukos
Even dbz at some point from the old dragon ball sagas. Had some heroes being killed off, especially in the Saiyan saga. Truly dark there. Having villains so off world and powerful.
Sorry for spoiling the fun, but for me ATLA is near perfect, but Black Sun is one of it's weakest moments. Team Good Guys out of blue decided they want to go for a suicidal mission, because that's what sieging Fire Nation capital was. What was their plan? That Aang will defeat Ozai in his home and the war just ends? If so, then it would be much easier to sneak into the palace with small group than storming it in open battle. Also, they were hoping that Ozai would be seating calm in his pajamas sipping morning tea while there's a frontal attack on the outside? No, even if he didn't know anything about incoming siege, he would hide in a buncker long before Aang would be able to start looking for him. Besides that the Eclipse was only 8 minutes long and even if plan would work out perfectly than there's still a lot of things than can go wrong. Non benders can be tough opponents so why they hoped that temporaly powerless firebender would be an easy catch? Especially with time window that tight and whole army on his side? Also, Ba Sing Se was great and meaningful defeat, why we had to repeat it? But worse?
This was also achieved great in the game immortals of aveum
Day of black sun was my absolute favorite battle!!!!
This is what I wanted to happen in warframe's new war quest. I wanted our loss as the player to be meaningful not be rushed as hell and feel pointless
Great video
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it :)
Before we have started streaming everything people could have really that this is the last episode. With streaming you see there are more coming after this.
And in season 2, Iroh told Zuko he would never be able to understand how to to use Lightning until he dealt with the immense inner turmoil he had within him.
Well here Zuko finally made peace with the fact that his actions in Ba Sing Sae were wrong, that he has always been a victim of mental and physical abuse, and that he has had his honor the entire damn time and doesn’t need his father’s approval. And only when he finally makes peace with all of that, does he at long last confront his abuser and shoot the lightning for the first time.
Absolutely incredible.
Actually you misunderstood what happened. Zuko cannot generate lightning due to his inner conflict, which is why Iroh taught him to REDIRECT lightning, which is what Zuko does in the rest of the show. Zuko never himself makes lightning, just redirects it
“Having characters constantly lose isn’t entertaining” that’s why I don’t like Korra, the gang loses every single fight against Amon until the end
To be fair Bolin and Mako were just essentially sports stars prior to meeting her.
Like they are skilled sure but they fight for sport and entertainment not actual rules. Even if you make the argument they had a background of being street urchins and working with the gangs a few times they are still inexperienced kids.
It's only after meeting korra did they actually start to progress more in a sense like Bolin learning lava bending.
Besides on another note korra was also screwed by the network and the writing.
At the end of book 1 korra was at her technical strongest with all elements unlocked and remained so till the end of season 2...but they couldn't just make her stronger without breaking the system.
So instead they had to make her weaker.
As much as we dislike them losing I'm positive if each boom for character had her learn or gain new powers then it would just seem worse than what we did get.
4:00 ah one of the few actual filler episodes.
if you like this I would recommend the video game chrono trigger. I think it does something similar very well
You know what the irony about this, it was foreshadowed of sozin comet and how the fire nation relied on it for them to win the war, but Aang and the others did the same thing to them. Ozai, Azula and the fire nation lost the war at the end.
When I was a kid I thought this would be the last episode