From a competitor standpoint as a sub zero main 1. He 100% needs a faster ice ball , it’s pretty much useless. Most of the cast gets out fast projectiles so the trade almost never happens and when it does you aren’t able to get in quick enough to combo so great point. If they combo meterless and scale like ice clone that’s perfect 2. Making sub zero 1,2,1 string gapless is perfect then I’m able to jail that string more and enforce actual pressure which helps out clone. 2,1 can stay with a gap because that string is actually insane with the range and it’s so useful. However 1,2 at least should be gapless would help tremendously in MUs like Tanya and Lao 3.Clone is really good as it is , it’s a very honest move it’s fair there should be counter play around it which there is . I agree they can probably make it a little more on the recovery if not at least the enhanced one but it’s good I love the hit region buff it has. Great point on the enhanced one taking two hits that’ll lowkey be cheap 😂 4. my own personal point is sub zero needs a better anti air option that combos. Because b2 is his launcher you are never landing that after anti airing. Characters are allowed to jump in frequently on sub because when they are punished it never hits hard. So if you give sub zero a great anti air option that hurts and give him better damage when he cashes out his meter along with the first two points you made. 5. In conclusion awesome video I love the changes and agree with most of the points. Sub zero definelty struggles in this current meta and he’s legit only a few changes from being extremely strong. 6. BUFF OUR GOAT SUB ZERO
Consider this comment pinned and loved! I cannot tell you how many times I tried to get my F12 after an AA S1 and nothing comes out, so I dropped my whole combo. Then I have to go back to doing 21, Ice Punch for a measly 16%. Your suggestion of a better AA combo route is definitely something that he needs!! I was hoping that perhaps with a faster Ice Ball, he could do 21-Ice Ball and get his damage that way. But, if not that, I hope they do exactly what you requested. Thank you so much for replying back!
People on twitter really saying that iceball is a good projectile and that Subzero is a good zoner. They really said Sub is a better zoner than Liu and Kitana. That made me so mad LOL.
Whoever said that was tweakin'... Sub's Ice Ball is among the worst projectiles in the game. It's better at controlling space than it is actually freezing people. It is objectively the worst Ice move in the game - both Kameo Sub and Frost's freeze moves are better.
@@mrAPchem For real. They were saying things like "you stand full screen, they throw a projectile, you throw ice ball, you get hit, but they get fully comboed." I responded to them that I realized that they aren't playing sub, but I still got mad LOL. It was somebody named Subby that started all of it. Apparently they are known and are good at the game, but I don't know about that because they literally said Sub is a better zoner than Liu.
@@Lance.Gardenhire Yeah, the people that don't exclusively play Sub against the entire rest of the cast often have so much to say about what he can do in theory. But in actual matches, that theory goes right out of the window.
If iceball becomes the main combo tool something needs done and deadly vapor. I'd say make it a dot damage puddle that slows movement and prevents jumping. The ex version is out longer and effects a larger area.
Well, Deadly Vapor would still be quite useful because it would allow us to use Klone in combos, while Ice Ball wouldn't. But, any buff to that move is welcome by my standards!
@mrAPchem vapor to me is a hard move to buff. I think it definitely should be faster than clone punch, though. With its low damage ,tracking, and frame manipulating properties. The none ex version should bully people. And the none ex version so be a trap of sorts if you do something like stand 2 vapor and your opponent pressed a button the slow down should be enough for a clone or b34 something like that.
@@damionbaxter4912 Yeah, that move is tough to buff; the wrong addition will make it too scrubby. I like the idea of speeding it up and slightly increasing its damage and slow-down time.
@mrAPchem I think the slow down especially needs to be looked at. Even if you do it perfectly, it's not enough to get off a 7 frame move or back dash whiff punish, which I think it should at least do that. Would also help him use his gaps to his advantage.
He needs all those buffs plus mid should be 12/13 frames and damage scaling needs adjusted on ice puddle and fatal blow. All that still wouldn’t make him a top tier, but he’d actually be high mid tier at least.
Exactly! This list of buffs literally brings him up to everyone else's level. It doesn't even come close to making the character Top 5; all it does is make him ice-solid.
I've been a Sub Zero main since 1992. That being said, NRS isn't going to change anything that would make Sub Zero a competitive character. I personally like your changes, but the only thing I would add would be to have his 2,1 string restand.
Well, NRS did exactly that for characters like Rain, Nitara and Scorpion in this game. Sub-Zero could get that same love also. Having said that, a restanding 21 sounds great!
It blows my mind that ice ball is so bad in a game where if you kept it exactly the same as any previous game, it'd automatically be nerfed because kameos can just tank the damn hit and you get nothing. EX Iceball is even worse because a ton of the projectiles you'd want to use it to blow through, are FROM kameos and thus worthless to use it on. I still think EX iceball should either pierce kameos or just straight up do that AND give him the mk9 beam back (since that also catches jumps). You can keep THAT iceball at its current frame data if you want, because yes you can punish the shit out of a kameo call, but his normal one has got to be faster.
Yeah, his Ice Ball is horrendous in this game. That's why I made it the very first buff suggestion - it's too slow, which interferes with so many areas of his gameplay.
These are the buffs I think Sub Zero needs also. I think F12 should be slightly faster by 1 or 2 frames, and the low should be a gap if they added grab command to the string and give it a MB to freeze if the opponent guesses wrong and it does count as a freeze, it's like a deadly vapors move. I agree with all the other buffs you said in the video too, and I think his B2 should be 1 or 2 frames faster also. it would be nice if the new ice Clone property you said in the video was "frost bite" if the opponent hits this 2 hitting ice clone, you can get another freeze in combo with slightly reduced scaling in damage but they need to fix his scaling first. A faster slide is very much needed. I think this will make sub zero more viable for sure.
@@mrAPchem yeah! Especially if it's like a throw command like peacemaker. Obviously make it duckable, so it can play as a mind game and keep kameos like Sonya viable if they get hit with the low for combos.
@@mrAPchem it's like an homage for that command grab. I think it could give him some versatility with other kameos that usually don't pair well with him in theory. It would just make( F12 ) a string to slightly respect on block or staggered with a buffed ice clone. It gives him the ability to be aggressive than be totally on the defensive.
give him an effective projectile that's fast enough to combo off most hit confirms like his counterparts, shorten his combo gaps so people can't interrupt them like every other character, make his launcher unreactable like everyone else, and his ice klone can stay as negative as it is, but too many characters are punching through it.
I like most of these, but I would definitely not make his overhead unreactable. That would make him scrubby. The buff to Ice Ball alone would help him out so that Sub players would have to be forced to throw the overhead out at the wrong time.
@@aidandemarrais6655 as punishable as his other counterparts. Scorpion's spear and Reptile's ball are quick enough to lead to full combos from almost any hit confirm, but they are punishable. Both put the enemy in a stun.
@@mrAPchem The game itself is scrubby. All it is, is unreactable 50/50s after unreactable 50/50s. Every other character gets an unreactable launcher in some way. Sub's only launcher is the most punishable launcher. Therefore, Sub has to do twice the work to win since he has no real mix-up. For the mix-ups he does have, it is only at the end of his combo string, therefore, it leads to no combos like OP explained. To add salt to injury, his combos are as dry as raw, well-done chicken and popeye's biscuits. Easy to learn, easy to counter. Even if you do cancel overheads into slide, you're not getting any damage without kameos. They have NO range and gets beat out by most other moves even if you visually hit them first. Without any tools at his disposal working, better yet with them working against him, the least they can do is give him that. Either make it unreactable or make it safe.
y'all dont know what your talking about mk1 is an assist game sub zero in this game is not meant to be played like previous versions of sub zero example mk9 mkx your all playing him wrong the ice clone is not meant to be used like it was in 9 or x watch afoxy grampa play with sub and sonya cameo he uses the ice ball and clone how its meant to be used if sub zeros ice ball was the same start up as other characters fire ball he would be trading every single time getting a full combo punish which would shut down options for 90 percent of the cast example quan chi is a zoner if sub ice ball traded with skull fire ball every time that would basically be an 7 3 match up in subs favor and just to note if you played mk9 subs ice ball would rarely trade unless you enhanced the move you cant have an mk9 or mkx sub in a kameo slash assist game then you'd make him broken hes fine as he is stop down playing this character all i hear is ice ball and clone is so bad but no one talks about the good moves he has a little tip for all your players out there with brain rot why would you continue to do something in a fighting game that you know doesn't work change up your game plan and do something that does work yes sub has bad match ups but so does every fighting game ever made this seems like a skill issue to me STOP THE CAP.
It's always interesting to see people that don't play Sub-Zero in MK1 lecture people that do about how good he is or how he's supposed to be played. They either theory-craft ideas that don't make sense or say things that betray the fact that they have never played this character against good players with top-tier characters in their lives. Not only have I watched Foxy use Sub, but I've also watched Sikander and every other high-level Sub player. Foxy says the character is okay, but not good. Sikander says that he sucks. Every Sub player has stated that the character is severely lacking and was only strong in previous iterations of the game because of how well he paired with a pre-nerfed Khameleon. And those are the only two names of people that are willing to use Sub in a tournament these days, which says a lot. Now, as has been the case throughout the life of the game, Sub-Zero is the secondary character in every team he has, while the Kameo is the star, which isn't the case for virtually any other character in the game. You mentioned the Klone. The Klone is indeed meant to be used defensively as a gotcha move. But the EX-Klone lasts longer, therefore giving him the ability to trap, which it does well enough. But the normal Klone lasts for roughly 1.16 seconds and for over half that time, Sub-Zero is in a recovery state where he can't block. This lets virtually every character in the game punish him for free on reaction just for using the move. And it does happen in matches against the best players. The Klone has the ability to block projectiles, but in too many situations, it goes away right as the projectile is barreling towards you, so Sub gets hit right in the face after doing a move that is supposed to protect him. The Quan Chi matchup isn't a winning matchup at all for Sub-Zero because Quan can and will S4 on reaction the Klone and get either a setup or a full combo anywhere on screen. You would know that if you actually played the character. You also mentioned the Ice Ball. I'm sure that Foxy did find an intelligent way to make use of Ice Ball because that's what he does. Both he and Sikander use some kind of ambush projectile or other Kameo move that provokes the opponent to jump, to which they then use the Ice Ball to catch said jump. But that only works with about 3 Kameos - Kano, Sonya and Lao. With all 3 of those Kameos, Sub loses the ability to combo meterlessly from his best footsie string 21 and for the male Kameos, he must use meter anytime he gets a hit-confirm from his strings. For the other Kameos that don't have an ambush projectile, Ice Ball is a near-useless move that either overwhelmingly gets dodged, blocked or gets Sub-Zero hit with a projectile to the face with nothing to show for it. Speeding it up is a necessity so that it can be integrated in his gameplan because as it currently stands, it's a dead move. Go ahead and use it against good players and see what happens to you as a result. Do us all a favor - instead of using all caps to tell us to stop capping about how good he is, why don't you pick him up, use him against good players and show us all how we aren't using him correctly? Show us all the error of our ways since you the one that has expertise with Sub-Zero rather than all of us that actually use him. Demonstrate to us that this character isn't as handicapped as we all claim that he is. If you can't or won't do this, then please shut all the way the fuck up because you don't know what you are talking about and are speaking from an emotional perspective, likely after having just gotten outplayed by a Sub-Zero player. I am speaking from an objective and experienced perspective after having used this character - and every other version of him in Mortal Kombat games. I know how good he is. And I know how to align him with the rest of the cast - he isn't there right now. You, by contrast, do not.
@@mrAPchemcrazy keep coping bro you assumed i dont play sub zero when in reality ive mained him since mortal kombat 2 back in the arcade days probably before you was born maybe im wrong who knows i was one of the best online subs in mk9 and he was low tier in that game and i got along just fine my main main in mk1 is scorpion sektor which in my opinion is not that good of a team all i really have is set ups unlike scorpion ferra or kamelion which have mix and good pressure meta basically if subs ice ball functioned like it did in mk11 you would literally break the character stop talking smack and educate yourself you mention the ice clone being punishable right then why do something that dont work like i previously explained players like you are stupid in the sense that you know full well know if you do the clone and your opponent has meter there gonna punish it yet y'all continue to do unsafe shit thats on you not sub you could do lao hat or kamelion blade toss or even sareena there are other options if you want to talk about a bad match up try kabal vs sektor in mk9 9 times out of 10 i would overcome the matchup because i was a skilled player watch reo vs djt grand finals he creeps up on the air gas blasts then applies pressure when he gets in and he won the tourney why because he used his brain and did the only thing that works and dont get me started on sikander hes a toxic narc who plays fueled by rage all he does is cry he did it in x in mk11 now mk1 and also hes not the voice of all sub players just because he mains him i never said sub was top hes mid tier hes not bad of course hes gonna have bad match ups but for the most part he does ok shang tsung is literally one of the worst characters in the game whys nobody talking about that and just for the record i beat most sub players i come across i never rage quit like 90% of players do including your GF sikkiana and if i do lose i take it on the chin like a man stop crying that sub is bad hes not your just shit at the game skill issue my guy.
Deadly vapors at least needs to have less damage scaling. Also give him his command grab back from injustice 2 just to add sum to his kit caz his mix is so predictable. Also his overhead is so debilitatingly slow if u try to do it raw into sareena or into khamleon fan lift more than half the time your getting down one mashed and interupted. I say a lil less recovery on ice klone but there are also scrub zeros who spend the entire match hiding behind ice klones and making you chase them down which becomes so exhausting. At the very lest they could make the ice ball slightly faster
I'd like the Injustice command grab as a string ender after 21 that would automatically link into Ice Ball if NRS didn't decide to speed it up. About people using the Klone, know that it lasts for only 70 frames and takes nearly 300 frames to come back. So, they can't run away for very long. If you merely walk them down, their strategy falls apart. But yes, a faster Ice Ball is a must for Sub. It should combo from his strings.
If Sub-Zero had his combos from Mortal Kombat X that would be super op but even if you took mechanics from mk11 he would be very good. If you add that on top of what you said with those books that would make Sub-Zero extremely strong
Well, Sub's combos in this game are at the same level as or even better than MKX's. Pairing him with Sonya, Goro, Scorpion and other Kameos gives him lots of swaggy stuff. But it's more about ensuring that he doesn't have to risk his life just to perform these combos. The Ice Ball should at least be fast enough for him to use it after his strings for combos.
Great video as always! Very reasonable and realistic buff concepts. I agree that 122 should most definitely be gap-less, and ice ball should be much faster. But I don’t agree with the basic ice clone lasting as long as the ex. I think the recovery of non ex clone should be buffed and sub should be upper body invincible for maybe 2-3 frames so he can’t be jabbed out of clone. I also believe ex triple clone should have the same upper body immunity AND enable auto block when landing because of instant recovery. If you punish/armor him while he’s in the air good for you, if not? Sub is safe and can attack immediately. I think your clone suggestion is amazing and I know I’d enjoying playing with that buff, but it might be a touch too strong combined with the iceball buff in my mind. I just visualize sub zero winning every zoning encounter regaurdless of his kameo pick. After all he is a counter zoner, and the iceball has always been the cornerstone of that playstyle seeing as clone comes and goes. But I’d rather have the clone be buffed up to broken in this game and the iceball stay unusable how it is now, just because it covers more bases and is faster start up. Slide should also low profile faster and more consistently, I feel like half the time or more, slide is just not fast enough to punish or gets stuffed by a move it should go under. But I think im being fairly conservative with my personal suggestions. I think your suggestions are more in line with the intensity of this game and its roster.
Or just remove the ex single clone give the basic clone it's properties then make ex triple clone 1 bar and give it armor immunity. So if the opponent reads the situation correctly sub gets armored like usual but if they get to comfortable blindly armoring like they do now sub can spend a bar for triple clone to beat their armor which is fair and how it should have worked from the beginning.
@Codename_aether yep. And the slide is fast enough. The problem is that out of the 14 frames of slides, he isn't treated as crouching until frame 12 of that 14 so only 3 frames actually low profile, and they built standing frames into the slide animation so he's forced to stand first than slide so if done from crouching it takes longer unlike every other version of sub since the birth of the character. The solution is just his standing frames 3 and his low profile frames 12.
@@damionbaxter4912 yea your 100% right. I guess I should clarify I mean it should travel fast enough to punish things like projectiles from afar (I’ve gone under projectiles on read and gotten blocked and punished, this should ALMOST never happen) or long reaching specials with pushback. My issue is with its travel speed rather than its startup frames. Li mei is one example of a character who I make the read and slide under her projectile just to get punished on block and eat 50%, and spending a bar for armor will allow me to slide from closer ranges without worrying about the projectile, but I shouldn’t have to spend a bar on slide to punish a projectile unless it’s mid.
I quite like your Klone buff suggestions - making the first few frames would allow him to Klone people's gaps and meaty attacks. Very powerful stuff right there. I'd take either that or the buffs I suggested.
@@mrAPchem it wasn't about this video it was a statement just in general. Spot on with your video though. Just making cameos in the first place was a bad idea to me.
@@Teryckdidit The Kameos are a much better version of the Variation systems that we've been getting. They add so much depth and variety to the game. But a 1v1 Mode would make for a very nice addition to the game.
I find it funny that you made a video discussing possible buffs to Sub-Zero and did so in a positive way and without attacking anyone or being aggressive about it, yet half of the comments I see are people being negative and typing the usual; "Sub-Zero players' tears, NRS buff please." Just like other comment sections I see where people discuss Sub-Zero, the people leaving negative comments and saying stuff about Sub-Zero or the uploader, they say stuff that makes it very obvious they do not lab the character or probably even any character past a combo or two they found on RUclips. I main Scorpion, but when it comes to Sub-Zero and buffs; the main things I'd want for him are - 1) Faster ice ball so that he can properly trade projectiles and also do it off strings to combo into. 2) Slide needs to lower Sub-Zero's hitbox more quickly. Currently, if he tries to slide on reaction to projectiles, he's just going to get hit out of it, which is silly. His slide has always been used as a way to punish projectiles. 3) Less gaps in his strings. 4) Slight damage buff so that he can get 37-40% damage combos for one bar like most of the cast. 5) Decent damage buff to his 3 bar combos. Right now, he gets almost no extra damage for doing 3 bar combos. 6) Fix his overhead. There are many things they could do to fix it. The main way would be to speed it up a bit, though what I'd like most would be for it to act something like Reptile's. Allow him to do a quick version that is safe, but does a hard knockdown and then a slow version that launches, but is punishable on block. (Reptile's launching version should be made unsafe as well). 7) Slight damage buff to fatal blow? His fatal blow getting added onto combos sometimes looks like he just hit someone with a feathered pillow. 8) Fix all of his klone variations. He has 4 klones and they are all basically punished by the same things most of the time. He basically has no reason to use one version of klone over another 95% of the time. They can give Sub-Zero all of that and all I asked NRS for; buff Shang Tsung! and give Scorpion his flipkick overhead back. :p
@@LadyJasmineFGC I'm so glad that you saw what I saw! I play this character near-exclusively and wanted buffs that are far less ambitious than what you suggested! Yet, I had multiple non-Sub players crying foul! That was very fascinating actually, but it gave me content for the follow-up video, so I took advatange. But yes, Sub-Zero does indeed need help in the ways that I describe. But I'll happily take your buff suggestions too! You overhauled my boy right there!! Also, I love the idea of female MK players not only watching my videos, but playing this game in general. I hope that people haven't been weird/creepy towards you, but knowing how the online elements of gaming communities can be, I have little faith. Even if you've been here for a while, I just want to say 'Welcome!' I hope you stick around and whoop some ass! But also I hope that you've found a home on my channel and continue to watch because I have more where this video came from!
@mrAPchem I've been playing MK and other games online for a really long time, so I'm used to weird people, though for a long time now, I've kept my profile for games private and I keep messaging and voice chat off, that way I don't have to deal with it. About MK, though - yeah, I just want Sub-Zero to be fun and viable. I want the same for other characters that need help, too. Shang Tsung, Havik, and Geras mainly. Smoke after them since his cancels are fake pressure, and his mixup is not real past a certain level of player and highly punishable. I want to play Sub-Zero in MK 1 as I loved playing him in MK 11, but I find it so hard to have fun playing him due to how obviously weak he is in most match-ups. With me maining Scorpion and Shang Tsung since release, both of which being bottom 5 characters (Scorpion being way better since Ferra release, although I do not use Ferra), I find it hard to want to also play Sub-Zero in his current condition. Still playing Shang as possibly the worst or second worst character makes it hard to want to play the other character he shares the bottom with. XD Hopefully, Khaos Reigns brings buffs to Sub-Zero, Shang (we know Ed is aware of Shang needing buffs as he brought it up prior to Takeda/Ferra release), Havik (no way Havik isn't being buffed with the theme of Khaos Reigns), Geras, and a few others. We saw that Sub kameo and Sonya are both getting new kameo moves. Maybe other kameos will get new moves as well, and maybe they'll be useful to Sub-Zero.
@@LadyJasmineFGC That is my hope also. I'm sorry that you've had to mute yourself and people. When I do it, it's merely because I don't want anyone to hear what I'm saying because I think aloud. For you and other ladies, it's likely because dudes don't know when to stop being odd. But to your point about Sub and other characters, I want the exact same thing - every character to be strong, unique and solo-main viable. In this game, I'd also like to see each character have several Kameos that are tournament-viable, which the vast majority of them do, except the ones we named. I made a video that you might be interested in titled "Sub-Zero Needs the Scorpion Treatment". I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!
Good video as always man! Your a great voice for all us sub zero mains ❄️ Do you think there’s a chance they are stumped on how to buff ice ball without making Ex deadly vapours a pretty useless move? Because they obviously want that move to be subs combo extender instead of his usual ice ball. Maybe they could make ice ball combo but scale a lil heavy and then decrease the scaling on ex vapours so if you spend the bar you get a more damaging combo. If not maybe they could rework it into more of a projectile similar to scorpions hellfire move.
That's a fantastic question! The way I see it, Ice Ball would still allow EX Deadly Vapors to be useful because Sub can't use Ice Klone in combos after Ice Ball. But he can Klone in combos after EX Deadly Vapors. But to your point, NRS could grant some kind of buff to Klone used in a combo after EX Deadly Vapors, like maybe it does an extra 7% damage by itself, helping Sub's overall lack of damage in combos. I think that something like that would still give utility to that move, while allowing us to use Ice Ball in the way that I suggest. What do you think about this?
@@mrAPchem The clone doing a flat 7% in combos seems like solid idea as this would give sub more damage using Ex deadly vapours than ice ball but obviously ice ball allows sub a chance to do damage without spending resources.
I was thinking that perhaps 122 should be a +40-on-hit knockdown with no gaps so that he can use it as a combo ender. And 212 could either pop-up or freeze the opponent if NRS doesn't buff Ice-Ball.
This is important but it's positioning and hit specific. There's plenty of trades where you just don't get much more than slide, and while you do need to learn to divekick for conversions, screwing it up in the slightest can get you full combo punished. Your opponent can just input the upblock and if you hit them, oh well they eat the combo, and if you DON'T, they upblock the divekick and murder you for it.
@Eji1700 you can do the ground pound to pop them up but he shouldn't have to use meter to xombo after freezing them. They need to make the opponent stay frozen a little longer.
They could definitely tweak it to stay froze a lil longer, at the end of the day it’s the only way he can continue combos and mostly everyone else has multiple ways to continue combos ( pop ups, crumble state etc) I wonder if you do meterless ground vapors before the dive kick will that guarantee a hit⁉️
@@bigunclevince I haven't tried that but I doubt it will. I don't understand why sub is the only one that has to use meter or cameo to continue combos, unless in corner and he just got that ability.
@@jaxfan I don't mind differences in characters, I just don't see where Sub makes up for it. It just feels like his core identity is missing and he got a, admittedly good, but not that good, divekick out of the deal.
This perspective doesn't make much sense. Characters that were both better and worse than Sub have been buffed to the moon in this game. Plus, Sub just got a series of buffs recently. NRS has shown that they can and will buff low characters with new strings, moves and abilities. Given the fact that we have the KP2 dropping in about 3 weeks, this is the perfect time to campaign for changes.
I really might. Get his thoughts on what Sub needs - if merely to quell the prattle of non-Sub-playing naysayers in this comment section that swear that he's amazing already.
@@spongeaa I like that change for him. Especially if the command grabs allows us to freeze the opponent with an Ice Ball afterwards. That would actually be a nice compromise if NRS didn't feel like giving Sub a faster Ice Ball.
I don't care what noone says. Mk1 subzero is only as good as his cameo character. Yes I fair extreamly well with sub being my main. But Nrs has butchered him since mkx.
I tagged edd boon,paulo Garcia,Tyler and Deric,and sent them your video, hopefully the do something about sub,so if the haters are gonna fight against buffs we sub zero players have to fight for our character,not just becouse we love tha character,but becouse we are right.
@mrAPchem can they really??? Ooohh jeeze it's almost like sub didn't get a buff on literally the last patch? What u want a buff every patch until your char is broken? Cause u know running away throwing iceballs and hiding behind a clones wasn't a good enough game plan. Just make all subs moves +15.
Theres a way to do 3 clones using one meter bar not much better but if im putting out a clone lol id rather put out 3 then 1 lol to me 3 clones seems to throw ppl off more then one does lol not all the time tho lol . I wish theyd buff sub sub zero and scorpion should be the two most over powered and broken characters in the game not jonny cage sindel and homelander lol thats just me tho making sub zero and scorpion the worst characters in the game is like making ken and ryu the worst characters in a street fighter game
I don't need Sub to be OP - I just need him to be fully-functional on his own as a character. Right now, he's an incomplete character that relies on his Kameo to become a whole character whereas the best characters are either a character and a half or greater. Sub actually has 2 triple-Klone moves. One requires 1 bar and the other requires 2. Both are equally niche and near-useless.
@mrAPchem agreed homie I feel shit sub zero reptile and scorpion are my 3 most favorite characters the ninjas are the only reason I play mk tbh but I agree g
@mrAPchem sub is solid the way he is, u guys need to stop downplaying him, God is filled with subzero and they are actually op, maybe it's a skill issue
@@svgghadkillah4013 Nobody said he isn't. But his mix isn't real, - not that it needs to be. His Klone is -43 anytime he does it which gets him killed. And his footsie strings are filled with gaps. Not to mention his Ice Ball is useless.
The constant crying about Sub Zero is exhausting. Yall want ice ball to be the same speed as other projectiles that you can’t kombo from. Thats ridiculous. His clone is essentially a parry, a shield and a trap but somehow yall want it to be safe lmao. Most special moves are full kombo punishable. Most the cast can’t even full kombo punish it. Use safe set ups or get a read. Yall wanna just brain dead throw it out whenever you feel like it 🥱
And people not watching videos yet replying in the comments anyway is even more exhausting. You do realize that Scorpion's Spear is 17 frames, right? That is faster than the vast majority of projectiles in the game - and not only does it allow a full-combo on hit, but it pulls the opponent towards you so you don't have to travel to them to get your damage. Also, who said anything about Klone being safe? I specifically advocated for the move to still be punishable on a read from the opponent, rather than on reaction like it is now. I can tell you don't play this character because you advocated for people to use safe setup(s) plural for Klone when he only has one. And he wouldn't need to safely set up a Klone if it couldn't be punished by everyone in the game already. People don't punish it in matches, but every character punishes this move on reaction, with many getting a full combo. Learn to hit the lab before leaving a comment about a character that you don't play.
@@mrAPchemno, he just probably hasn't labbed or played Sub-Zero and gets beat by him because surprise surprise: how can you expect to be good at something you haven't practiced??? Buff Sub
@@ElConejo6713 I'll lose the Tanya mod when you lose that bad take of yours and actually contribute something productive to this conversation. Talking about you're a Sub main, but you want to nerf him...You must think that we're as dumb as you sound. Also, MK3 female ninja suits are goated, even if Tanya never was one.
You are actually out of your mind if you think sub needs a buff. Ice klone alone fucks up the whole neutral game. Dumb as fuck, d1-ice klone. When you try to hit back you get frozen.... Most broken dive-kick in the game. What more do you want? If anyone wants a buff to sub-zero they just don't play the game on high level period.
@@xairaxboss And you're just out of your mind. Period. If Sub is as high-level as you claim, name me 3 of the last tournaments the character has won from someone using him as a solo-main. Better yet, find me 2 Sub-Zero mains that think this character is top-tier or even high-tier. Don't worry, I'll wait... Also, if you can't get around D1-Klone, you don't have the range to contribute to this conversation. If you can't UpBlock his already unsafe Divekick, you don't have the range to contribute to this conversation. Also, Nitara and Kung Lao say 'Hi'. And if you can't fight Sub's great neutral when his Klone only lasts for 70 frames but has 240 frames of cooldown, you don't know enough to contribute to this conversation.
Not to be rude, unlike yourself, but your comment shows an obvious lack of understanding of Sub-Zero, the placement in which he exists in tier lists, and what actual high-level players think. 1) There are multiple tournament level players, ex pros, and people like Sikander, who a lot may not like due to his online personality, but they all agree that Sub-Zero is a low tier character. So, your comment about "they just don't play the game on a high level period" is just wrong, period. 2) MK 1 is an assist game; plenty of things "f up the whole neutral game." Klone is meant to make people learn to be patient, to allow Sub-Zero to apply unusual pressure that is different from other characters. Klone has largely always been a unique characteristic of Sub-Zero. 3) "When you try and hit back and get frozen;" half of the time you poke when Sub-Zero uses klone, you don't even get frozen. Not to mention, that's one of the use cases for klone; catch people mashing without thinking. If you think, wait, and Sub-Zero does the klone, many characters can freely punish him for it. 4) Sub-Zero's dive kick is literally his only good special in MK 1, and even then, it isn't the best dive kick in the game. The best dive kick in the game, based solely on the singular move itself, is Kung Lao's dive kick. Nitara's is also better than Sub-Zero's now after her buffs. Sub-Zero also can't just throw his out 24/7 like the other two as his is slower and much more noticeable. Nitara's is masked by her movement in the air, and Kung Lao's has basically no recovery, so he will just use it as a way to gap close, whiff punish, and trick unknowledgable people into mashing against him after he dives. 5) You might not like it, but the simple fact is, and all high level Sub-Zero mains agree, along with many other high-level players that do not main or even play Sub-Zero, he does in fact need a buff. Before you try and say something stupid too and call me another Sub-Zero main; I main Scorpion and have done so for probably longer than you've been alive. I just want all characters to be in a fun and viable place. Scorpion is finally viable with his back 3 being cancellable and his enhanced teleport buff, though he does still need his flipkick overhead from previous games. Outside of Sub-Zero, Shang Tsung, Havik, and Geras all need buffs as well. Smoke likely needs buffs, too. I will not bother elaborating on Smoke, though as if you cannot understand Sub-Zero, you definitely won't understand what Smoke needs.
@@LadyJasmineFGC Do you know what you don't get? Sub is not a low tier character, he is an A tier character. The problem with the game is there are too many broken shit that "normal" tier characters seems underpowered. Ofcourse pro players will pick broken chars. to win tournements. Their income depends on it. Sub-Zero got everything you can ask from a character. With the new IceKlone hitbox buff there are some chars. that cant even use their pokes before getting frozen. "Catch the people mashing without thinking" statement is just laughable. In this game d1's are punishable with d1's. Anything fucks that up is dumb. And even without using d1. Pokes meant to used as not letting your turn away or stealing a turn. When you poke and i foresee that and block that i should have the turn. So pressing 1 or 2 whatever after blocking a d1 is not "mashing". He has one of the best foward advancing mid in the game, i see some people crying about it being 15 frames... And when you assume i don't know my shit and about that Smoke, i'ma Smoke main myself. If anyone needs a buff in this game is Smoke, alongside with Havik and Geras. Every pressure he has is a lie. Every string has gaps, he is THE most poekable and Armorable char. in the entire game. Invis is just a gimmick, noob slayer. So hard to make it work in high levels. BTW I've reached to Elder God in every single season. I know my shit. Long story short is, there are so few chars. that needs a buff in this game. Vast majorty of them are good. Broken ass chars. needs to get nerfed. Not every char. should be broken. People who wants Sub to get buffs want the char to be broken like other S+ tiers. What i'm saying is when they nerf the broken stuff in this game, every other character will be A+ and it will all be skill in the end.
@@xairaxboss You seem to be conflating low-tier with 'bad'. Nobody, except for like one person in here, is saying that Sub is a bad character. A character can be decent or even good and still be low-tier because all the other characters are great or amazing. Also, do you even play Sub? I'm certain that you don't because if you did, you'd never say that Sub has 'got everything you can ask from a character' when he very clearly doesn't. Your main Smoke is closer to that description than Sub is, but he has lots of issues that we are somehow able to acknowledge. I'm not sure why you can't see that for Sub-Zero. Also, Sub's mid whiffs on people and gets low-profiled at times, so there's that. Anyway, many characters mess up the D1 poke meta, not just Sub. Cage does D1-Rising Star or backdash-B3. Raiden used to do D1-Storm Cell. Scorpion does D1-Fire Spin. And any character can do D1-Kameo and blow you up for poking back. That is the nature of FGs. Certainly, hitting a poke should lead to guaranteed pressure. And blocking a poke should leave the opponent so negative that you get guaranteed pressure. But characters and mechanics bend/break rules all the time in FGs. Take for instance, Reptile. Characters cannot normally whiff normals/strings and then cancel them into specials or anything. Yet Reptile can do S3 and cancel it whether it hits or not. He breaks that rule. And this is true for lots of characters and is perfectly fine. Anyway, you're right - there are a lot of A+ characters in this game. Sub-Zero is not among them - for a lot of the same reasons that Smoke isn't. And as bad as you say that Smoke is, that character has done as good or better overall in tournaments than Sub-Zero has. So if Smoke needs help, so too does Sub-Zero.
Nah, sub does not need a buff, hes already frustrating enough sitting behind ice clone all game, he can do most normals into ice clone to essentially take his turn back, hes not a zoner but hes a good anti zoner for everyone but reiko, he has his strengths. Sub mains need to stop downplaying him.
@@blacckarrow7655 I play Quan more than I play Sub, and the truth it Sub still needs a buff. I think they should bring back Beta Sub (12 frame mid, actual damage from spending 3 bars, better ice clone), but let him combo into Iceball.
A character being frustrating does not equal them being good. Yes, the Klone is always annoying, but he literally cannot sit behind it all game - it only lasts for 70 frames and has a 4-second cooldown, which is more than enough time to go in on him. And nobody said anything about him being able to do block-strings into Klone - this is about making this character function well enough as an independent character so that he doesn't have to rely on his Kameos to have basic functionality. You play Quan Chi - a character that punishes Klone anywhere on screen on reaction with your S4. You can't fully zone Sub, but he can never use his Klone unless in a combo or from the Universal Klone Setup. You can counter anything that Sub does - all you have to worry about is the Kameo that he's paired with because that is more influential on the match than Sub himself is. And that's what I want to change.
Who is getting out-zoned by Sub-Zero in this game? Especially when Kameos like Motaro, Khameleon and Sub-Zero let opponents walk right through and around Klone??
![Eminem - Fuel (Shady Edition) feat. Westside Boogie & GRIP [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/k1OquBida9s/mqdefault.jpg)
From a competitor standpoint as a sub zero main
1. He 100% needs a faster ice ball , it’s pretty much useless. Most of the cast gets out fast projectiles so the trade almost never happens and when it does you aren’t able to get in quick enough to combo so great point. If they combo meterless and scale like ice clone that’s perfect
2. Making sub zero 1,2,1 string gapless is perfect then I’m able to jail that string more and enforce actual pressure which helps out clone. 2,1 can stay with a gap because that string is actually insane with the range and it’s so useful. However 1,2 at least should be gapless would help tremendously in MUs like Tanya and Lao
3.Clone is really good as it is , it’s a very honest move it’s fair there should be counter play around it which there is . I agree they can probably make it a little more on the recovery if not at least the enhanced one but it’s good I love the hit region buff it has. Great point on the enhanced one taking two hits that’ll lowkey be cheap 😂
4. my own personal point is sub zero needs a better anti air option that combos. Because b2 is his launcher you are never landing that after anti airing. Characters are allowed to jump in frequently on sub because when they are punished it never hits hard. So if you give sub zero a great anti air option that hurts and give him better damage when he cashes out his meter along with the first two points you made.
5. In conclusion awesome video I love the changes and agree with most of the points. Sub zero definelty struggles in this current meta and he’s legit only a few changes from being extremely strong.
6. BUFF OUR GOAT SUB ZERO
Consider this comment pinned and loved!
I cannot tell you how many times I tried to get my F12 after an AA S1 and nothing comes out, so I dropped my whole combo. Then I have to go back to doing 21, Ice Punch for a measly 16%.
Your suggestion of a better AA combo route is definitely something that he needs!! I was hoping that perhaps with a faster Ice Ball, he could do 21-Ice Ball and get his damage that way. But, if not that, I hope they do exactly what you requested.
Thank you so much for replying back!
People on twitter really saying that iceball is a good projectile and that Subzero is a good zoner. They really said Sub is a better zoner than Liu and Kitana. That made me so mad LOL.
Whoever said that was tweakin'...
Sub's Ice Ball is among the worst projectiles in the game. It's better at controlling space than it is actually freezing people. It is objectively the worst Ice move in the game - both Kameo Sub and Frost's freeze moves are better.
@@mrAPchem For real. They were saying things like "you stand full screen, they throw a projectile, you throw ice ball, you get hit, but they get fully comboed." I responded to them that I realized that they aren't playing sub, but I still got mad LOL. It was somebody named Subby that started all of it. Apparently they are known and are good at the game, but I don't know about that because they literally said Sub is a better zoner than Liu.
Yes it's true
Just use subzero Cameo shield 🛡️.. then Spam 😅😅 Ice ball
@@Lance.Gardenhire Yeah, the people that don't exclusively play Sub against the entire rest of the cast often have so much to say about what he can do in theory. But in actual matches, that theory goes right out of the window.
Miss how you could use meter in 11 to make it go faster.
If iceball becomes the main combo tool something needs done and deadly vapor. I'd say make it a dot damage puddle that slows movement and prevents jumping. The ex version is out longer and effects a larger area.
Well, Deadly Vapor would still be quite useful because it would allow us to use Klone in combos, while Ice Ball wouldn't. But, any buff to that move is welcome by my standards!
@mrAPchem vapor to me is a hard move to buff. I think it definitely should be faster than clone punch, though. With its low damage ,tracking, and frame manipulating properties. The none ex version should bully people. And the none ex version so be a trap of sorts if you do something like stand 2 vapor and your opponent pressed a button the slow down should be enough for a clone or b34 something like that.
@@damionbaxter4912 Yeah, that move is tough to buff; the wrong addition will make it too scrubby. I like the idea of speeding it up and slightly increasing its damage and slow-down time.
@mrAPchem I think the slow down especially needs to be looked at. Even if you do it perfectly, it's not enough to get off a 7 frame move or back dash whiff punish, which I think it should at least do that. Would also help him use his gaps to his advantage.
Listening to big dog talk about Subzero while I’m in the weight room 💯
I appreciate that!!! I need to hit up some weights my damn self tbh!
He needs all those buffs plus mid should be 12/13 frames and damage scaling needs adjusted on ice puddle and fatal blow. All that still wouldn’t make him a top tier, but he’d actually be high mid tier at least.
Exactly! This list of buffs literally brings him up to everyone else's level. It doesn't even come close to making the character Top 5; all it does is make him ice-solid.
I've been a Sub Zero main since 1992. That being said, NRS isn't going to change anything that would make Sub Zero a competitive character. I personally like your changes, but the only thing I would add would be to have his 2,1 string restand.
Well, NRS did exactly that for characters like Rain, Nitara and Scorpion in this game. Sub-Zero could get that same love also.
Having said that, a restanding 21 sounds great!
@@mrAPchem those characters don't get the hate Sub Zero gets tho.
@@FAM0US-M0NSTERS- You ain't lyin' about that! My boy has been getting mega-hate since MK9, and likely before then!
I almost thought you had Khaos Reigns early with that Umk3 mod 😂 W video btw
Thank you!!!! I love this damn mod of Sub. It's my favorite!
It blows my mind that ice ball is so bad in a game where if you kept it exactly the same as any previous game, it'd automatically be nerfed because kameos can just tank the damn hit and you get nothing.
EX Iceball is even worse because a ton of the projectiles you'd want to use it to blow through, are FROM kameos and thus worthless to use it on. I still think EX iceball should either pierce kameos or just straight up do that AND give him the mk9 beam back (since that also catches jumps).
You can keep THAT iceball at its current frame data if you want, because yes you can punish the shit out of a kameo call, but his normal one has got to be faster.
Yeah, his Ice Ball is horrendous in this game. That's why I made it the very first buff suggestion - it's too slow, which interferes with so many areas of his gameplay.
Would be nice.
Insightful as always.
Thank you Shinfitz!
nrs better be taking notes
That's my goal!!!
These are the buffs I think Sub Zero needs also. I think F12 should be slightly faster by 1 or 2 frames, and the low should be a gap if they added grab command to the string and give it a MB to freeze if the opponent guesses wrong and it does count as a freeze, it's like a deadly vapors move. I agree with all the other buffs you said in the video too, and I think his B2 should be 1 or 2 frames faster also. it would be nice if the new ice Clone property you said in the video was "frost bite" if the opponent hits this 2 hitting ice clone, you can get another freeze in combo with slightly reduced scaling in damage but they need to fix his scaling first. A faster slide is very much needed. I think this will make sub zero more viable for sure.
An alternative ending to the F12 string would indeed be a dope buff!!
@@mrAPchem yeah! Especially if it's like a throw command like peacemaker. Obviously make it duckable, so it can play as a mind game and keep kameos like Sonya viable if they get hit with the low for combos.
@@noiregeo That would be very nice for him. Gives him room to have his MKX Cryomancer command grab again, even if it's part of a string!
@@mrAPchem it's like an homage for that command grab. I think it could give him some versatility with other kameos that usually don't pair well with him in theory. It would just make( F12 ) a string to slightly respect on block or staggered with a buffed ice clone. It gives him the ability to be aggressive than be totally on the defensive.
give him an effective projectile that's fast enough to combo off most hit confirms like his counterparts, shorten his combo gaps so people can't interrupt them like every other character, make his launcher unreactable like everyone else, and his ice klone can stay as negative as it is, but too many characters are punching through it.
I like most of these, but I would definitely not make his overhead unreactable. That would make him scrubby. The buff to Ice Ball alone would help him out so that Sub players would have to be forced to throw the overhead out at the wrong time.
@@mrAPchemshould this new ice ball be punishable?
@@aidandemarrais6655 as punishable as his other counterparts. Scorpion's spear and Reptile's ball are quick enough to lead to full combos from almost any hit confirm, but they are punishable. Both put the enemy in a stun.
@@mrAPchem The game itself is scrubby. All it is, is unreactable 50/50s after unreactable 50/50s. Every other character gets an unreactable launcher in some way. Sub's only launcher is the most punishable launcher. Therefore, Sub has to do twice the work to win since he has no real mix-up. For the mix-ups he does have, it is only at the end of his combo string, therefore, it leads to no combos like OP explained. To add salt to injury, his combos are as dry as raw, well-done chicken and popeye's biscuits. Easy to learn, easy to counter. Even if you do cancel overheads into slide, you're not getting any damage without kameos. They have NO range and gets beat out by most other moves even if you visually hit them first. Without any tools at his disposal working, better yet with them working against him, the least they can do is give him that. Either make it unreactable or make it safe.
@@aidandemarrais6655 Yes. It should be at least -20 on block. Currently, it's -11.
y'all dont know what your talking about mk1 is an assist game sub zero in this game is not meant to be played like previous versions of sub zero example mk9 mkx your all playing him wrong the ice clone is not meant to be used like it was in 9 or x watch afoxy grampa play with sub and sonya cameo he uses the ice ball and clone how its meant to be used if sub zeros ice ball was the same start up as other characters fire ball he would be trading every single time getting a full combo punish which would shut down options for 90 percent of the cast example quan chi is a zoner if sub ice ball traded with skull fire ball every time that would basically be an 7 3 match up in subs favor and just to note if you played mk9 subs ice ball would rarely trade unless you enhanced the move you cant have an mk9 or mkx sub in a kameo slash assist game then you'd make him broken hes fine as he is stop down playing this character all i hear is ice ball and clone is so bad but no one talks about the good moves he has a little tip for all your players out there with brain rot why would you continue to do something in a fighting game that you know doesn't work change up your game plan and do something that does work yes sub has bad match ups but so does every fighting game ever made this seems like a skill issue to me STOP THE CAP.
It's always interesting to see people that don't play Sub-Zero in MK1 lecture people that do about how good he is or how he's supposed to be played.
They either theory-craft ideas that don't make sense or say things that betray the fact that they have never played this character against good players with top-tier characters in their lives.
Not only have I watched Foxy use Sub, but I've also watched Sikander and every other high-level Sub player. Foxy says the character is okay, but not good. Sikander says that he sucks. Every Sub player has stated that the character is severely lacking and was only strong in previous iterations of the game because of how well he paired with a pre-nerfed Khameleon. And those are the only two names of people that are willing to use Sub in a tournament these days, which says a lot.
Now, as has been the case throughout the life of the game, Sub-Zero is the secondary character in every team he has, while the Kameo is the star, which isn't the case for virtually any other character in the game.
You mentioned the Klone. The Klone is indeed meant to be used defensively as a gotcha move. But the EX-Klone lasts longer, therefore giving him the ability to trap, which it does well enough. But the normal Klone lasts for roughly 1.16 seconds and for over half that time, Sub-Zero is in a recovery state where he can't block. This lets virtually every character in the game punish him for free on reaction just for using the move. And it does happen in matches against the best players. The Klone has the ability to block projectiles, but in too many situations, it goes away right as the projectile is barreling towards you, so Sub gets hit right in the face after doing a move that is supposed to protect him.
The Quan Chi matchup isn't a winning matchup at all for Sub-Zero because Quan can and will S4 on reaction the Klone and get either a setup or a full combo anywhere on screen. You would know that if you actually played the character.
You also mentioned the Ice Ball. I'm sure that Foxy did find an intelligent way to make use of Ice Ball because that's what he does. Both he and Sikander use some kind of ambush projectile or other Kameo move that provokes the opponent to jump, to which they then use the Ice Ball to catch said jump. But that only works with about 3 Kameos - Kano, Sonya and Lao. With all 3 of those Kameos, Sub loses the ability to combo meterlessly from his best footsie string 21 and for the male Kameos, he must use meter anytime he gets a hit-confirm from his strings.
For the other Kameos that don't have an ambush projectile, Ice Ball is a near-useless move that either overwhelmingly gets dodged, blocked or gets Sub-Zero hit with a projectile to the face with nothing to show for it.
Speeding it up is a necessity so that it can be integrated in his gameplan because as it currently stands, it's a dead move. Go ahead and use it against good players and see what happens to you as a result.
Do us all a favor - instead of using all caps to tell us to stop capping about how good he is, why don't you pick him up, use him against good players and show us all how we aren't using him correctly? Show us all the error of our ways since you the one that has expertise with Sub-Zero rather than all of us that actually use him.
Demonstrate to us that this character isn't as handicapped as we all claim that he is.
If you can't or won't do this, then please shut all the way the fuck up because you don't know what you are talking about and are speaking from an emotional perspective, likely after having just gotten outplayed by a Sub-Zero player.
I am speaking from an objective and experienced perspective after having used this character - and every other version of him in Mortal Kombat games.
I know how good he is. And I know how to align him with the rest of the cast - he isn't there right now.
You, by contrast, do not.
@@mrAPchemcrazy keep coping bro you assumed i dont play sub zero when in reality ive mained him since mortal kombat 2 back in the arcade days probably before you was born maybe im wrong who knows i was one of the best online subs in mk9 and he was low tier in that game and i got along just fine my main main in mk1 is scorpion sektor which in my opinion is not that good of a team all i really have is set ups unlike scorpion ferra or kamelion which have mix and good pressure meta basically if subs ice ball functioned like it did in mk11 you would literally break the character stop talking smack and educate yourself you mention the ice clone being punishable right then why do something that dont work like i previously explained players like you are stupid in the sense that you know full well know if you do the clone and your opponent has meter there gonna punish it yet y'all continue to do unsafe shit thats on you not sub you could do lao hat or kamelion blade toss or even sareena there are other options if you want to talk about a bad match up try kabal vs sektor in mk9 9 times out of 10 i would overcome the matchup because i was a skilled player watch reo vs djt grand finals he creeps up on the air gas blasts then applies pressure when he gets in and he won the tourney why because he used his brain and did the only thing that works and dont get me started on sikander hes a toxic narc who plays fueled by rage all he does is cry he did it in x in mk11 now mk1 and also hes not the voice of all sub players just because he mains him i never said sub was top hes mid tier hes not bad of course hes gonna have bad match ups but for the most part he does ok shang tsung is literally one of the worst characters in the game whys nobody talking about that and just for the record i beat most sub players i come across i never rage quit like 90% of players do including your GF sikkiana and if i do lose i take it on the chin like a man stop crying that sub is bad hes not your just shit at the game skill issue my guy.
@@mrAPchem TALK TO EM BROTHER
@@Pellz Man, I be trying! Some people are dense though, let me tell ya!!!
Yes you said it correctly,and we need a 12 or 13 frames mid down from 15.
Yeah, his mid is too slow for its range.
Deadly vapors at least needs to have less damage scaling. Also give him his command grab back from injustice 2 just to add sum to his kit caz his mix is so predictable. Also his overhead is so debilitatingly slow if u try to do it raw into sareena or into khamleon fan lift more than half the time your getting down one mashed and interupted. I say a lil less recovery on ice klone but there are also scrub zeros who spend the entire match hiding behind ice klones and making you chase them down which becomes so exhausting. At the very lest they could make the ice ball slightly faster
I'd like the Injustice command grab as a string ender after 21 that would automatically link into Ice Ball if NRS didn't decide to speed it up.
About people using the Klone, know that it lasts for only 70 frames and takes nearly 300 frames to come back. So, they can't run away for very long. If you merely walk them down, their strategy falls apart.
But yes, a faster Ice Ball is a must for Sub. It should combo from his strings.
If Sub-Zero had his combos from Mortal Kombat X that would be super op but even if you took mechanics from mk11 he would be very good. If you add that on top of what you said with those books that would make Sub-Zero extremely strong
Well, Sub's combos in this game are at the same level as or even better than MKX's. Pairing him with Sonya, Goro, Scorpion and other Kameos gives him lots of swaggy stuff.
But it's more about ensuring that he doesn't have to risk his life just to perform these combos. The Ice Ball should at least be fast enough for him to use it after his strings for combos.
Great video as always! Very reasonable and realistic buff concepts.
I agree that 122 should most definitely be gap-less, and ice ball should be much faster.
But I don’t agree with the basic ice clone lasting as long as the ex.
I think the recovery of non ex clone should be buffed and sub should be upper body invincible for maybe 2-3 frames so he can’t be jabbed out of clone.
I also believe ex triple clone should have the same upper body immunity AND enable auto block when landing because of instant recovery. If you punish/armor him while he’s in the air good for you, if not? Sub is safe and can attack immediately.
I think your clone suggestion is amazing and I know I’d enjoying playing with that buff, but it might be a touch too strong combined with the iceball buff in my mind.
I just visualize sub zero winning every zoning encounter regaurdless of his kameo pick. After all he is a counter zoner, and the iceball has always been the cornerstone of that playstyle seeing as clone comes and goes.
But I’d rather have the clone be buffed up to broken in this game and the iceball stay unusable how it is now, just because it covers more bases and is faster start up.
Slide should also low profile faster and more consistently, I feel like half the time or more, slide is just not fast enough to punish or gets stuffed by a move it should go under.
But I think im being fairly conservative with my personal suggestions. I think your suggestions are more in line with the intensity of this game and its roster.
Or just remove the ex single clone give the basic clone it's properties then make ex triple clone 1 bar and give it armor immunity. So if the opponent reads the situation correctly sub gets armored like usual but if they get to comfortable blindly armoring like they do now sub can spend a bar for triple clone to beat their armor which is fair and how it should have worked from the beginning.
@@damionbaxter4912 yea that could work too, it’s much simpler than my explanation and thats a good thing.
@Codename_aether yep. And the slide is fast enough. The problem is that out of the 14 frames of slides, he isn't treated as crouching until frame 12 of that 14 so only 3 frames actually low profile, and they built standing frames into the slide animation so he's forced to stand first than slide so if done from crouching it takes longer unlike every other version of sub since the birth of the character. The solution is just his standing frames 3 and his low profile frames 12.
@@damionbaxter4912 yea your 100% right.
I guess I should clarify I mean it should travel fast enough to punish things like projectiles from afar (I’ve gone under projectiles on read and gotten blocked and punished, this should ALMOST never happen) or long reaching specials with pushback. My issue is with its travel speed rather than its startup frames.
Li mei is one example of a character who I make the read and slide under her projectile just to get punished on block and eat 50%, and spending a bar for armor will allow me to slide from closer ranges without worrying about the projectile, but I shouldn’t have to spend a bar on slide to punish a projectile unless it’s mid.
I quite like your Klone buff suggestions - making the first few frames would allow him to Klone people's gaps and meaty attacks. Very powerful stuff right there.
I'd take either that or the buffs I suggested.
The miskake they made with this game is when they made the decision to add cameos period.
Kamoes have nothing to do with any of this. Characters have been mediocre in FGs of all different kinds, even the assist fighters.
@@mrAPchem it wasn't about this video it was a statement just in general. Spot on with your video though. Just making cameos in the first place was a bad idea to me.
@@Teryckdidit The Kameos are a much better version of the Variation systems that we've been getting. They add so much depth and variety to the game. But a 1v1 Mode would make for a very nice addition to the game.
@@mrAPchem i agree if we gonna have kameos at least give us an option to 1v1.
I find it funny that you made a video discussing possible buffs to Sub-Zero and did so in a positive way and without attacking anyone or being aggressive about it, yet half of the comments I see are people being negative and typing the usual; "Sub-Zero players' tears, NRS buff please."
Just like other comment sections I see where people discuss Sub-Zero, the people leaving negative comments and saying stuff about Sub-Zero or the uploader, they say stuff that makes it very obvious they do not lab the character or probably even any character past a combo or two they found on RUclips.
I main Scorpion, but when it comes to Sub-Zero and buffs; the main things I'd want for him are -
1) Faster ice ball so that he can properly trade projectiles and also do it off strings to combo into.
2) Slide needs to lower Sub-Zero's hitbox more quickly. Currently, if he tries to slide on reaction to projectiles, he's just going to get hit out of it, which is silly. His slide has always been used as a way to punish projectiles.
3) Less gaps in his strings.
4) Slight damage buff so that he can get 37-40% damage combos for one bar like most of the cast.
5) Decent damage buff to his 3 bar combos. Right now, he gets almost no extra damage for doing 3 bar combos.
6) Fix his overhead. There are many things they could do to fix it. The main way would be to speed it up a bit, though what I'd like most would be for it to act something like Reptile's. Allow him to do a quick version that is safe, but does a hard knockdown and then a slow version that launches, but is punishable on block. (Reptile's launching version should be made unsafe as well).
7) Slight damage buff to fatal blow? His fatal blow getting added onto combos sometimes looks like he just hit someone with a feathered pillow.
8) Fix all of his klone variations. He has 4 klones and they are all basically punished by the same things most of the time. He basically has no reason to use one version of klone over another 95% of the time.
They can give Sub-Zero all of that and all I asked NRS for; buff Shang Tsung! and give Scorpion his flipkick overhead back. :p
@@LadyJasmineFGC I'm so glad that you saw what I saw!
I play this character near-exclusively and wanted buffs that are far less ambitious than what you suggested! Yet, I had multiple non-Sub players crying foul! That was very fascinating actually, but it gave me content for the follow-up video, so I took advatange.
But yes, Sub-Zero does indeed need help in the ways that I describe. But I'll happily take your buff suggestions too! You overhauled my boy right there!!
Also, I love the idea of female MK players not only watching my videos, but playing this game in general. I hope that people haven't been weird/creepy towards you, but knowing how the online elements of gaming communities can be, I have little faith. Even if you've been here for a while, I just want to say 'Welcome!'
I hope you stick around and whoop some ass! But also I hope that you've found a home on my channel and continue to watch because I have more where this video came from!
@mrAPchem I've been playing MK and other games online for a really long time, so I'm used to weird people, though for a long time now, I've kept my profile for games private and I keep messaging and voice chat off, that way I don't have to deal with it.
About MK, though - yeah, I just want Sub-Zero to be fun and viable. I want the same for other characters that need help, too. Shang Tsung, Havik, and Geras mainly. Smoke after them since his cancels are fake pressure, and his mixup is not real past a certain level of player and highly punishable.
I want to play Sub-Zero in MK 1 as I loved playing him in MK 11, but I find it so hard to have fun playing him due to how obviously weak he is in most match-ups.
With me maining Scorpion and Shang Tsung since release, both of which being bottom 5 characters (Scorpion being way better since Ferra release, although I do not use Ferra), I find it hard to want to also play Sub-Zero in his current condition. Still playing Shang as possibly the worst or second worst character makes it hard to want to play the other character he shares the bottom with. XD
Hopefully, Khaos Reigns brings buffs to Sub-Zero, Shang (we know Ed is aware of Shang needing buffs as he brought it up prior to Takeda/Ferra release), Havik (no way Havik isn't being buffed with the theme of Khaos Reigns), Geras, and a few others.
We saw that Sub kameo and Sonya are both getting new kameo moves. Maybe other kameos will get new moves as well, and maybe they'll be useful to Sub-Zero.
@@LadyJasmineFGC That is my hope also.
I'm sorry that you've had to mute yourself and people. When I do it, it's merely because I don't want anyone to hear what I'm saying because I think aloud.
For you and other ladies, it's likely because dudes don't know when to stop being odd.
But to your point about Sub and other characters, I want the exact same thing - every character to be strong, unique and solo-main viable. In this game, I'd also like to see each character have several Kameos that are tournament-viable, which the vast majority of them do, except the ones we named.
I made a video that you might be interested in titled "Sub-Zero Needs the Scorpion Treatment". I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!
Good video as always man! Your a great voice for all us sub zero mains ❄️
Do you think there’s a chance they are stumped on how to buff ice ball without making Ex deadly vapours a pretty useless move? Because they obviously want that move to be subs combo extender instead of his usual ice ball.
Maybe they could make ice ball combo but scale a lil heavy and then decrease the scaling on ex vapours so if you spend the bar you get a more damaging combo.
If not maybe they could rework it into more of a projectile similar to scorpions hellfire move.
That's a fantastic question!
The way I see it, Ice Ball would still allow EX Deadly Vapors to be useful because Sub can't use Ice Klone in combos after Ice Ball. But he can Klone in combos after EX Deadly Vapors.
But to your point, NRS could grant some kind of buff to Klone used in a combo after EX Deadly Vapors, like maybe it does an extra 7% damage by itself, helping Sub's overall lack of damage in combos.
I think that something like that would still give utility to that move, while allowing us to use Ice Ball in the way that I suggest.
What do you think about this?
@@mrAPchem The clone doing a flat 7% in combos seems like solid idea as this would give sub more damage using Ex deadly vapours than ice ball but obviously ice ball allows sub a chance to do damage without spending resources.
And why do 212, 122 just knock down? These two strings should pop up for a combo, same thing goes for Scorpions 212.
I was thinking that perhaps 122 should be a +40-on-hit knockdown with no gaps so that he can use it as a combo ender. And 212 could either pop-up or freeze the opponent if NRS doesn't buff Ice-Ball.
If you get the full screen trade, dive kick to get the combo ‼️
This is important but it's positioning and hit specific. There's plenty of trades where you just don't get much more than slide, and while you do need to learn to divekick for conversions, screwing it up in the slightest can get you full combo punished. Your opponent can just input the upblock and if you hit them, oh well they eat the combo, and if you DON'T, they upblock the divekick and murder you for it.
@Eji1700 you can do the ground pound to pop them up but he shouldn't have to use meter to xombo after freezing them. They need to make the opponent stay frozen a little longer.
They could definitely tweak it to stay froze a lil longer, at the end of the day it’s the only way he can continue combos and mostly everyone else has multiple ways to continue combos ( pop ups, crumble state etc) I wonder if you do meterless ground vapors before the dive kick will that guarantee a hit⁉️
@@bigunclevince I haven't tried that but I doubt it will. I don't understand why sub is the only one that has to use meter or cameo to continue combos, unless in corner and he just got that ability.
@@jaxfan I don't mind differences in characters, I just don't see where Sub makes up for it. It just feels like his core identity is missing and he got a, admittedly good, but not that good, divekick out of the deal.
His mid whiffs😭
Yes, because its range is decent. That's why it needs to be sped up slightly.
Hope he doesn’t get buffed tired of playing against him online even if it’s a easy win.
This is an honest perspective. Thank you for sharing!
Buff peacemaker😅
I'm cool with that. He was over-nerfed, just like Sub-Zero.
Man it’s pointless NRS ain’t gon do shit about this handicap
This perspective doesn't make much sense. Characters that were both better and worse than Sub have been buffed to the moon in this game. Plus, Sub just got a series of buffs recently.
NRS has shown that they can and will buff low characters with new strings, moves and abilities.
Given the fact that we have the KP2 dropping in about 3 weeks, this is the perfect time to campaign for changes.
send this video to sikander555, a high level sub zero player
I really might. Get his thoughts on what Sub needs - if merely to quell the prattle of non-Sub-playing naysayers in this comment section that swear that he's amazing already.
@@mrAPchem yeah he said something about giving sub a command grab
@@spongeaa I like that change for him. Especially if the command grabs allows us to freeze the opponent with an Ice Ball afterwards.
That would actually be a nice compromise if NRS didn't feel like giving Sub a faster Ice Ball.
I don't even use Kameos like that
@@kaliefpurrier410 You should. This is a Kameo game.
I don't care what noone says. Mk1 subzero is only as good as his cameo character. Yes I fair extreamly well with sub being my main. But Nrs has butchered him since mkx.
@@c_low_da_wrk9121 Since MK11 - he was super-good in that game
@mrAPchem what I ment was since mkx he has been butchered.
You can get closer to after ice ball
Try wave Dash***
You can, but will you have enough time to use his only launcher afterwards consistently is the question.
I tagged edd boon,paulo Garcia,Tyler and Deric,and sent them your video, hopefully the do something about sub,so if the haters are gonna fight against buffs we sub zero players have to fight for our character,not just becouse we love tha character,but becouse we are right.
That is greatly appreciated! We need these things for him.
@@mrAPchem I completely agree mate you keep this videos coming,am gonna present them to the nrs.
As a havik player. Yall need to wait your dang turn.
@@alvarezah You do realize that NRS can buff more than one character at a time, right??
@mrAPchem can they really??? Ooohh jeeze it's almost like sub didn't get a buff on literally the last patch? What u want a buff every patch until your char is broken? Cause u know running away throwing iceballs and hiding behind a clones wasn't a good enough game plan. Just make all subs moves +15.
truths! 🔥
Thank you for watching!
Theres a way to do 3 clones using one meter bar not much better but if im putting out a clone lol id rather put out 3 then 1 lol to me 3 clones seems to throw ppl off more then one does lol not all the time tho lol . I wish theyd buff sub sub zero and scorpion should be the two most over powered and broken characters in the game not jonny cage sindel and homelander lol thats just me tho making sub zero and scorpion the worst characters in the game is like making ken and ryu the worst characters in a street fighter game
I don't need Sub to be OP - I just need him to be fully-functional on his own as a character. Right now, he's an incomplete character that relies on his Kameo to become a whole character whereas the best characters are either a character and a half or greater.
Sub actually has 2 triple-Klone moves. One requires 1 bar and the other requires 2. Both are equally niche and near-useless.
@mrAPchem agreed homie I feel shit sub zero reptile and scorpion are my 3 most favorite characters the ninjas are the only reason I play mk tbh but I agree g
Buff sub zero
True indeed.
Where'd you get that skin??
@@kaliefpurrier410 This is a PC mod
He needs no buff
Yeah, he actually does.
@mrAPchem sub is solid the way he is, u guys need to stop downplaying him, God is filled with subzero and they are actually op, maybe it's a skill issue
@@svgghadkillah4013 Nobody said he isn't.
But his mix isn't real, - not that it needs to be. His Klone is -43 anytime he does it which gets him killed. And his footsie strings are filled with gaps. Not to mention his Ice Ball is useless.
Grow a brain.
The constant crying about Sub Zero is exhausting. Yall want ice ball to be the same speed as other projectiles that you can’t kombo from. Thats ridiculous.
His clone is essentially a parry, a shield and a trap but somehow yall want it to be safe lmao. Most special moves are full kombo punishable. Most the cast can’t even full kombo punish it. Use safe set ups or get a read. Yall wanna just brain dead throw it out whenever you feel like it 🥱
And people not watching videos yet replying in the comments anyway is even more exhausting.
You do realize that Scorpion's Spear is 17 frames, right? That is faster than the vast majority of projectiles in the game - and not only does it allow a full-combo on hit, but it pulls the opponent towards you so you don't have to travel to them to get your damage.
Also, who said anything about Klone being safe? I specifically advocated for the move to still be punishable on a read from the opponent, rather than on reaction like it is now.
I can tell you don't play this character because you advocated for people to use safe setup(s) plural for Klone when he only has one. And he wouldn't need to safely set up a Klone if it couldn't be punished by everyone in the game already.
People don't punish it in matches, but every character punishes this move on reaction, with many getting a full combo. Learn to hit the lab before leaving a comment about a character that you don't play.
WRONG nerf sub zero, plus that Tanya looks horrible
So, do you have anything constructive to add to this conversation?
@@mrAPchemno, he just probably hasn't labbed or played Sub-Zero and gets beat by him because surprise surprise: how can you expect to be good at something you haven't practiced???
Buff Sub
@@blujguitar6520 I main sub buddy
@@mrAPchem hit the lab, get rid of that Tanya mod it's horrendous
@@ElConejo6713 I'll lose the Tanya mod when you lose that bad take of yours and actually contribute something productive to this conversation.
Talking about you're a Sub main, but you want to nerf him...You must think that we're as dumb as you sound.
Also, MK3 female ninja suits are goated, even if Tanya never was one.
You are actually out of your mind if you think sub needs a buff. Ice klone alone fucks up the whole neutral game. Dumb as fuck, d1-ice klone. When you try to hit back you get frozen.... Most broken dive-kick in the game. What more do you want? If anyone wants a buff to sub-zero they just don't play the game on high level period.
@@xairaxboss And you're just out of your mind. Period.
If Sub is as high-level as you claim, name me 3 of the last tournaments the character has won from someone using him as a solo-main.
Better yet, find me 2 Sub-Zero mains that think this character is top-tier or even high-tier. Don't worry, I'll wait...
Also, if you can't get around D1-Klone, you don't have the range to contribute to this conversation.
If you can't UpBlock his already unsafe Divekick, you don't have the range to contribute to this conversation. Also, Nitara and Kung Lao say 'Hi'.
And if you can't fight Sub's great neutral when his Klone only lasts for 70 frames but has 240 frames of cooldown, you don't know enough to contribute to this conversation.
Not to be rude, unlike yourself, but your comment shows an obvious lack of understanding of Sub-Zero, the placement in which he exists in tier lists, and what actual high-level players think.
1) There are multiple tournament level players, ex pros, and people like Sikander, who a lot may not like due to his online personality, but they all agree that Sub-Zero is a low tier character. So, your comment about "they just don't play the game on a high level period" is just wrong, period.
2) MK 1 is an assist game; plenty of things "f up the whole neutral game." Klone is meant to make people learn to be patient, to allow Sub-Zero to apply unusual pressure that is different from other characters. Klone has largely always been a unique characteristic of Sub-Zero.
3) "When you try and hit back and get frozen;" half of the time you poke when Sub-Zero uses klone, you don't even get frozen. Not to mention, that's one of the use cases for klone; catch people mashing without thinking. If you think, wait, and Sub-Zero does the klone, many characters can freely punish him for it.
4) Sub-Zero's dive kick is literally his only good special in MK 1, and even then, it isn't the best dive kick in the game. The best dive kick in the game, based solely on the singular move itself, is Kung Lao's dive kick. Nitara's is also better than Sub-Zero's now after her buffs. Sub-Zero also can't just throw his out 24/7 like the other two as his is slower and much more noticeable. Nitara's is masked by her movement in the air, and Kung Lao's has basically no recovery, so he will just use it as a way to gap close, whiff punish, and trick unknowledgable people into mashing against him after he dives.
5) You might not like it, but the simple fact is, and all high level Sub-Zero mains agree, along with many other high-level players that do not main or even play Sub-Zero, he does in fact need a buff.
Before you try and say something stupid too and call me another Sub-Zero main; I main Scorpion and have done so for probably longer than you've been alive. I just want all characters to be in a fun and viable place.
Scorpion is finally viable with his back 3 being cancellable and his enhanced teleport buff, though he does still need his flipkick overhead from previous games.
Outside of Sub-Zero, Shang Tsung, Havik, and Geras all need buffs as well. Smoke likely needs buffs, too. I will not bother elaborating on Smoke, though as if you cannot understand Sub-Zero, you definitely won't understand what Smoke needs.
@@LadyJasmineFGC
Do you know what you don't get? Sub is not a low tier character, he is an A tier character. The problem with the game is there are too many broken shit that "normal" tier characters seems underpowered. Ofcourse pro players will pick broken chars. to win tournements. Their income depends on it.
Sub-Zero got everything you can ask from a character. With the new IceKlone hitbox buff there are some chars. that cant even use their pokes before getting frozen. "Catch the people mashing without thinking" statement is just laughable. In this game d1's are punishable with d1's. Anything fucks that up is dumb. And even without using d1. Pokes meant to used as not letting your turn away or stealing a turn. When you poke and i foresee that and block that i should have the turn. So pressing 1 or 2 whatever after blocking a d1 is not "mashing".
He has one of the best foward advancing mid in the game, i see some people crying about it being 15 frames...
And when you assume i don't know my shit and about that Smoke, i'ma Smoke main myself. If anyone needs a buff in this game is Smoke, alongside with Havik and Geras. Every pressure he has is a lie. Every string has gaps, he is THE most poekable and Armorable char. in the entire game. Invis is just a gimmick, noob slayer. So hard to make it work in high levels. BTW I've reached to Elder God in every single season. I know my shit.
Long story short is, there are so few chars. that needs a buff in this game. Vast majorty of them are good. Broken ass chars. needs to get nerfed. Not every char. should be broken. People who wants Sub to get buffs want the char to be broken like other S+ tiers. What i'm saying is when they nerf the broken stuff in this game, every other character will be A+ and it will all be skill in the end.
@@xairaxboss You seem to be conflating low-tier with 'bad'.
Nobody, except for like one person in here, is saying that Sub is a bad character. A character can be decent or even good and still be low-tier because all the other characters are great or amazing.
Also, do you even play Sub? I'm certain that you don't because if you did, you'd never say that Sub has 'got everything you can ask from a character' when he very clearly doesn't. Your main Smoke is closer to that description than Sub is, but he has lots of issues that we are somehow able to acknowledge. I'm not sure why you can't see that for Sub-Zero.
Also, Sub's mid whiffs on people and gets low-profiled at times, so there's that.
Anyway, many characters mess up the D1 poke meta, not just Sub. Cage does D1-Rising Star or backdash-B3. Raiden used to do D1-Storm Cell. Scorpion does D1-Fire Spin. And any character can do D1-Kameo and blow you up for poking back. That is the nature of FGs.
Certainly, hitting a poke should lead to guaranteed pressure. And blocking a poke should leave the opponent so negative that you get guaranteed pressure. But characters and mechanics bend/break rules all the time in FGs. Take for instance, Reptile. Characters cannot normally whiff normals/strings and then cancel them into specials or anything.
Yet Reptile can do S3 and cancel it whether it hits or not. He breaks that rule. And this is true for lots of characters and is perfectly fine.
Anyway, you're right - there are a lot of A+ characters in this game. Sub-Zero is not among them - for a lot of the same reasons that Smoke isn't. And as bad as you say that Smoke is, that character has done as good or better overall in tournaments than Sub-Zero has.
So if Smoke needs help, so too does Sub-Zero.
Sub zero players can get all the buffs and still whine about wanting more.
And Havik players don't watch videos before commenting. They apparently don't read either...
@@mrAPchem sub zero ice clone to 25frames. That's where I stopped watching cause you are clearly a tool.
@@mrAPchem you lost all credibility when you voiced something as stupid as ice ball to startup on 25frames 🤡 put that red nose on buddy.
Nah, sub does not need a buff, hes already frustrating enough sitting behind ice clone all game, he can do most normals into ice clone to essentially take his turn back, hes not a zoner but hes a good anti zoner for everyone but reiko, he has his strengths. Sub mains need to stop downplaying him.
I'm curious who you main now
@@blujguitar6520 I main quan
@@blacckarrow7655 I play Quan more than I play Sub, and the truth it Sub still needs a buff. I think they should bring back Beta Sub (12 frame mid, actual damage from spending 3 bars, better ice clone), but let him combo into Iceball.
A character being frustrating does not equal them being good.
Yes, the Klone is always annoying, but he literally cannot sit behind it all game - it only lasts for 70 frames and has a 4-second cooldown, which is more than enough time to go in on him.
And nobody said anything about him being able to do block-strings into Klone - this is about making this character function well enough as an independent character so that he doesn't have to rely on his Kameos to have basic functionality.
You play Quan Chi - a character that punishes Klone anywhere on screen on reaction with your S4. You can't fully zone Sub, but he can never use his Klone unless in a combo or from the Universal Klone Setup. You can counter anything that Sub does - all you have to worry about is the Kameo that he's paired with because that is more influential on the match than Sub himself is.
And that's what I want to change.
@@mrAPchem he probably hasn't sat in the lab and practiced punishing ice clone. Quan is literally a horrible match up for Sub
He dont need any buffs he is one of the best zoners in the game cuz of ice clone u cant go at him like u want to
Sindels hair goes right threw it & doesn’t freeze her, he’s such a weak match up for her
Who is getting out-zoned by Sub-Zero in this game? Especially when Kameos like Motaro, Khameleon and Sub-Zero let opponents walk right through and around Klone??