I think what Churchill said about the Battle of El Alamein could very well be applied to Midway: Now this is not the end. This is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
@rwarren58 Well technically both had once at Coral Sea. The experience was at the operational level they had all trained together for years on the Japanese side and had participated in more battles than anyone on the American side.
@@LeePrice-r9u None of the Japanese carriers had carrier to carrier battle experience until Coral Sea. The two IJN large fleet carriers at Coral Sea didn't make it to the Battle of Midway. None of the Japanese carriers at Midway had carrier to carrier battle experience. USS Yorktown had extensive carrier to carrier battle experience at Coral Sea. USS Yorktown was the only carrier at Midway that had carrier to carrier battle experience.
Not really. The Japanese still had 7 active aircraft carriers, but the stunning defeat at Midway, caused them to be far more conservative and to retreat to the Solomons and SW Pacific in an attempt to fortify that area, cut off Australia and secure the sea lanes from their East Indian and Indochina colonies, while continuing the fighting in Burma and China.
@@fazole Yes really the us forces just barley held Guadalcanal the way it was. if IJN had not lost the main Carrier Forse at Midway, the American forces would never have held Guadalcanal, no way no how. If the fighters and bombers had been based from carriers instead of Reboul the American forces wouldn't have had a chance of holding the island.
@@fazoleMidway effectively left the IJN with two first-line fleet carriers-Shokaku and Zuikaku. Ryujo and Zuiho were light carriers, and Hiyo and Junyo were too slow to really serve effectively as fleet carriers. Coral Sea had earlier left Shokaku damaged and Zuikaku with decimated air groups, so the Japanese Navy was really left in a tough spot.
That hour and a half between when Chikuma-1 should have detected the US Navy carriers and when TOne-4 actually did, is an ETERNITY in these circumstances.
@@timcvetic5054 The Japanese equipment was clearly superior. Their torpedoes were longer ranged and reliable - emphasis on reliable. Their Carrier crews were far more experienced. The US Dive Bombers were arguably superior, but that's it. Of course the US had superior intelligence, and that was decisive. But yeah, if our carriers were detected first and we lost all three to no Japanese loss - a completely possible outcome, that would have made a huge difference.
@@timcvetic5054 To say the American Equipment was not out Classed at Midway Is shallow. the Japanese had better torpedoes, and the Kate, was a superior to the junk the Americans had for a torpedo bomber. The F4F could stand a little more punishment, in a turning fight the Zero would eat it up, Dauntless was probably as good as Val dive bomber, but the IJN was a lot more experienced at hitting their mark.
Having read Walter Lord's 'Incredible Victory' only recently, I was struck by the way the American attacks, though ineffective individually, and that includes the attacks from Midway itself, put the Japanese 'off balance'. The Kido Butai had actually survived six or seven attacks already that morning...
Indeed, this argument is made forcefully in the book "Shattered Sword" by Jon Parshall and Anthony Tully, which came out four decades after Walter Lord's work.
@@takashitamagawa5881 the big hole here is how every one of those six or seven attacks from Midway zero problem finding Nagumo, yet the carrier aircraft needed luck bordering on divine intervention to get to the target. 🤔🤔🤔
Without the Japanese losses after the Battle of Midway, the campaign for Guadalcanal could not of happened, because those Japanese carriers and air crews would have made it impossible for the landings to occur or for the Marines to stay in supply.
The Japanese still had about 7 carriers left after Midway, though, it's true each IJN carrier had only 50 or 60 planes vs 90 on US carriers due to their aircraft folding wing design. But Midway put Yamamoto into a defensive mindset, while the switch over to the shorter range Hamp version of the Zero fighter, critically reduced the escort capability coming from Rabaul. Many IJN pilots were sacrificed to fuel starvation in the Guadalcanal campaign.
Midway certainly gave the US its first offensive initiative in the Pacific. I would add and emphasize, though, imo, that Midway did not automatically give the US a guarantee of victory. I think the first battles of Guadalcanal were the turning points in the Pacific. Look at Savo Island, for example, even with the Japanese success in sinking US warships the supply ships at Tulagi were left intact. This action allowed the US to keep its toehold on Henderson Airfield (without having to worry about 4 extra IJN carriers as you mentioned).
@@fazole Stop it. Only 2 of the 7 were fleet carriers. Shōkaku and Zuikaku, the two largest and most powerful carriers in the world. Those 2 could carry 382 planes to the Enterprise, Yorktown, and Saratoga's 300. If Midway were reversed and Japan's carriers survived while sinking Enterprise, Yorktown, and Hornet the Japanese would have had 6 or 7 frontline fleet carriers vs Saratoga. If that had happened, the Marines don't land at Guadalcanal and the Allies likely evacuate the Solomons and New Guinea. The Essex class carriers were still a long time from being completed and brought to operational strength.
With the disparity of industrial production there was no way the Japanese were going to defeat the Americans after they had four fleet carriers sunk at Midway. The only way the Japanese could have defeated the Americans was with a quick decisive victory. Even that is debatable. Either way with four Japanese carriers at the bottom of the Pacific as a result of the Battle of Midway they were destined to lose. It was only a matter of time.
I wonder what would have happened if they tried to turn the pacific coast into the same shooting gallery the Germans were enjoying? Or was US merchant shipping not as heavy on the west coast at that time?
@user-gl5 I don't think there was much "shooting gallery" to be had. I think the internal transportation in the USA was being done by rail and truck, and likewise with international trade amongst US, Canada, and Mexico. In contrast, the shipping that Germany attacked with varying degrees of success in the Atlantic was entirely intercontinental shipping, mostly involving USA providing supplies to help USSR and UK. When the US supplied its own military with fuel, food, and other necessities, Japan did try to prevent those resupply efforts.
@@PeteOtton And how exactly are they getting there and remaining on station to do so? Not to mention the difference as Julian mentions in terms of the # of targets available. Moreover, they couldn't do this because the US had a very powerful surface fleet operating off the west coast -- a deficit of oilers precluded forward deploying them, so Pye was drilling them hard off the west coast. Japan isn't going to sail within range of that fleet + the land base airpower available on the west coast, no way.
I've always wondered if Mitscher hadn't sent his flight off to no where and Hornet's dive bombers been involved in the attack, could have they have sunk all FOUR Japanese carriers at the same time. Mitscher not trusting Spruance and being arrogant enough to send his planes somewhere else on a gamble that flopped big time conceivably cost the US the Yorktown. IF all four carriers were sunk there would be no counter strike against Yorktown that would damage her. IMO, Mitscher was a tool that needed to take a long walk off a short flight deck for his stunt.
One can only assume that Mitchel had the favour of high command to receive the pardon for his inexcusable behaviour at Midway. If we are playing the “what if” game then I think you are quite correct, not only did he cost his side the possibility of getting the Hiroyuki but as a consequence he also may have doomed the Yorktown.
@@Ross-e9o Mitcher was already selected for Admiral and would be promoted after the battle. He did end up in the doghouse after Midway. His next command was a land-based command involved Pacific Fleet Patrol-Bombers and then Halsey called him back to be the Soloman Island Air Commander. He eventually rehabilitated himself enough to get TF58/38. As you know he ended up working closely with Admiral Spruance again, but never seemed to have stepped out of line again.
Nimitz was big on second chances. I think if it hadn't been a risk to locate the carriers based on our carrier doctrine at the time and had been due to timidity, Mitcher would have been in real trouble. Now if the Hornet's dive bombers had shown up at the same time as their torpedo planes, would the Enterprise and Yorktown pilots have had a smoke plume or two to investigate?
@@ThumperE23 Mitscher disobeyed orders again when he told the P-38 pilots who were sent to shoot down Yamamoto who exactly the target was. If one of them had been shot down in Japanese-held territory by one of the escorting Zeros, and captured, they might have given away the fact that Station HYPO had broken the IJN codes.
it’s a myth that they pulled the fighter coverage down to sea level and were not able to deal with the dive bombers as a result. The timing indicates that the CAP had ten minutes between the last torpedo attack and the dive bombers arriving. What they did do was prevent Nagumo from spotting his decks because they were constantly maneuvering and having to land CAP fighters to rearm and refuel.
Indeed the three carrier torpedo squadrons all contributed to the U.S. Navy's success that morning, even if they didn't score a single hit. The same could be said about the earlier Midway based attacks. Their sacrifice was also frightful. John Waldron's Torpedo 8 squadron flying from HORNET lost all its planes, but one should remember that there was a Torpedo 8 detachment under Lt. Fieberling flying 6 TBFs from the island that lost 5 of 6 planes attacking HIRYU.
@@takashitamagawa5881 Had the Torpedo Bombers had torpedoes that actually worked they might have accomplished a lot more. Thank goodness the sailors who worked on the problem in the field eventually solved it without much help from the Navy who seemed to have a "we'll get around to it, eventually" attitude. My Dad was on USN subs out of Australia and didn't have much good to say about the Navy brass sending the boats out with lousy torpedoes.
@@michaeldelaney7271The Mk13 aerial torpedo wasn’t fixed in the field like the Mk14 used by USN submarines. If anything the Mk13 was even worse, though its subpar delivery system, initially the Douglas TBD, would have limited the USN’s success even if the Mk13 was competent from the beginning. Even if armed with the best torpedoes of the day, the TBD would have struggled to survive long enough to make a successful torpedo run. By contrast, the USN’s fleet subs were solid, capable designs that were left effectively toothless by the Mk14’s flaws. And the submarines didn’t have dive bombers backing them up.
Coral Sea set up the possibility for a victory at Midway as two Kido Butai were not included due to damage inflicted and air wings depleted. Guadalcanal, the New Guinea campaign thru Operation Olympic did break the back of the IJN JIA.
The outnumbered myth was perpetuated by the movie. I saw it as an 8 year old in Corpus Christi, Texas ( a road there was named after VT 8 CO Waldron). With the beginning of the action showing the Midway fighters and carrier Devastators being wiped out, I leaned over and whispered to my dad asking him if we lost this battle. When the first bomb struck the Japanese carrier the whole theater erupted.
Those Japanese carriers would have been involved in the Guadalcanal campaign had they not been sunk at Midway. Considering how bad the naval engagements were around Guadalcanal without them, it could’ve been a very different story.
Not just the naval engagements... It would have made a world of difference if the Japanese could have a) resupplied during the day, and b) used ships designed to move cargo and troops instead of inefficient destroyers to get men and materiel to the beaches. The Cactus AF control of the skies kept those off limits.
one thing mr. parshall and i totally agree on is guadalcanal. it was the final part of the turn of the tide. but you cannot overlook the connection between doolittle, coral sea, midway, and guadalcanal. for the victory that occured during 1942 onward, they all needed to happen pretty much how it occured.
Jonathan Parshall is always outstanding! The Japanese really missed an opportunity to field the Zuikaku with the homeless Shokaku Air Group. The fact that this was not even considered is awful for the Japanese. Admiral Takagi in Coral Sea did begrudgingly use B5Ns as scouts which was contrary to Kido Butai Doctrine, the IJN was greatly averse to using carrier aircraft for scouting. The Soryu equipped with a Detachment of DY4 high speed Judy Dive Bombers was a huge step in the correct direction. A fifth carrier could have fielded extra CAP fighters and given more flexibility in striking Midway and the planned strikes against TF16 and TF17. The missing fifth carrier, its striking power and potential for scouting was a huge handicap.
@@mylanmiller9656 There were two Judy Dive Bomber Prototypes that were being used as high speed Scouts. In addition to these two Scouts, each carrier was carrying a number of Zero Sen Fighters for the soon to be established garrison at Midway.
So the torpedo bombers did not intentionally "sacrifrice" themselves, but the effect was the same. The Japanese CAP was not in a position to deal with the dive bombers because they were dealing with the torpedo bombers. Also, how much ammunition did the CAP expend when they were attacking the torpedo bomber attacks?
I have a feeling I've seen (and read) enough Jon Parschall to answer the title questions too, but still: I see Jon Parschall 's wallpaper, I click on the video. And he uses the term "Gantt chart". As an industrial engineer by education, I had to chuckle.
This is a very good video. My single objection is the reference to myths, not because the statements are not true but because all history loses its details over time. Re Midway - of course the battle of Coral Sea gave the US its first successes. So once blooded, US forces gained confidence and skill. Still one element of Midway that remains magical is re the torpedo bombers that distracted the Japanese. So let's reframe the story - the several attacks - which took time off the clock.. well that is actually heroic.
The US actually had more planes but many of them were land based from Midway, not equipped or trained for dive bombing or torpedo attacks and were dropping bombs from too high elevation. What surprises me is the number of Japanese pilots that survived Midway given that all four carriers were sunk, and the Japanese were not known for rescuing ditched pilots.
If we look at the photos of the flight deck there weren't a lot of plans ready to go, the deck below though had lots of bombs laying around from switching from a land attack to a carrier attack.
The carriers spent the entire morning recycling CAP fighters, which Parschall and Tully addressed in Shattered Sword. By the time of the dive bomber attack at 1020, each of the Japanese carriers had cycled a group of CAP fighters, a chutai of three, about 4 to 6 times, and some fighter aviators were on their second CAP patrol. One of the carriers hit in the morning attack actually seems to have launched the first fighter of a new CAP chutai right before the first bomb hit.
Although the USA was not outnumbered in total aircraft because of land based air at Midway, the USA had only 3 aircraft carriers against the Japanese having 4. In surface ships the USN was definitely outnumbered, but they played no role in the battle. I think the USA was somewhat outnumbered in submarines, but they only played a role as recon. I don't think the torpedo bombers were deliberately sacrificed though their sacrifice lured the japanese CAP low and then the dive bombers had little or no opposition and sank three carriers in one massive strike.
VT-3 "lured" the CAP fighters to another quadrant of the battle, which opened up the dive bombers. The CAP was drawn to the torpedo bombers while some of them should have stayed in CAP. The myth is the first strikes drew the CAP to low level and that's what opened an opportunity for the dive bombers, which wasn't the case.
America had 3 carriers at Midway but they only used two. Hornet may as well not been there. With out the results at Midway Guadalcanal would have been a loss
I believe reading from his book that American carriers had larger air groups than Japanese carriers so 3 was almost equal to four. Read the book and check me on that
So the flight deck wasn't full, but below the flight there were enough planes with munitions to cause the catastrophic chain reaction of explosions, correct? Because only one, maybe 3 bombs hit the carrier.
Not only that but they had fuel lines as well - refueling was done below decks. And the unused fuel lines weren't purged, so any damage would let raw fuel run out. Nasty combination the Japanese later addressed at least partially. They weren't all that big on damage control.
@@matthewhecht9257 According to "Shattered Sword", Kaga was attacked by both Enterprise dive bomber squadrons (less three planes) and took at least five bombs. The other three aircraft, led by Lt. Best, landed just one bomb on Akagi. Soryu took three hits from Yorktown's dive bomber squadron. Later the same day, Hiryu took four bombs from a composite Enterprise dive bomber group.
The Americans were incredibly outnumber during the Midway Campaign. It was a typically overly complicated Japanese plan that divided their forces into 4+ Task groups that made it a even fight where it mattered.
The other issue is that Japanese radios in their planes were terrible, because they were improperly grounded, and most were simply removed from the plane. For this reason, there was no way that observers on the flight decks, or on other planes, were unable to order CAP fighters onto a different set of attackers.
So for carrier to carrier Japanese were roughly on par 300-382 navy to navy with 4 Japanese carriers vs 3 U.S. carriers but then must consider that midway had both army aircorp and marine Corp to boot which although didn't land a single bomb nevertheless managed to tie up aircraft launch and recovery procedures significantly allowing the carrier aircraft time to locate and strike
The Japanese honor response to their loss at Midway, that is that their surviving aviators which was most of their aircrew, were transferred to the battle in the Solomons flying out of Rabaul.
Not in mere plane count, but in aircraft quality, TORPEDO quality and every skill set imaginable AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, the U.S. forces were working at a total disadvantage. Plane count means nothing when one side has all the best ones flown by the experienced pilots, AND YET…… for sometimes the underdog wins, don’t they?
My speculation as to what helped turn the Japanese Army around on sending troops to Midway and Hawaii after the carrier-borne B-25 raid was fear of carrier-borne, JATO-assisted A-20Bs set to spray Japan at night at the height of Japanese Encephalitis season. The Lend Lease A-20Bs would have continued on for delivery to Vladivostok and arrived around dawn.
I love Jon Parshall but I would like to push back on his statement regarding the torpedo planes because the Zeros had time to regain the altitude to oppose the dive bombers. Whether they could have or not is not relevant. They DIDN'T regain that altitude--and the reason they were as low as they were is because VT-8 and VT-6 and then VT-3 came in before the dive bombers and the Japanese CAP stayed down to deal with them. If there was no VT-8, VT-6, or VT-3, Japanese CAP would have been in position to oppose the dive bombers and the battle would have taken a very different course. The sacrifice of the torpedo planes set conditions to allow the dive bombers to attack unimpeded by CAP.
In the book "Shattered Sword" Parshall and Tully make the argument, restated in this video, that it was the lateral displacement of the Japanese CAP that was the more important factor opening up the sky to the dive bombing strikes. The Zeros were arrayed along the southeast axis battling Torpedo 3 and Jimmy Thach's Wildcats covering them. The torpedo attack came in from the southeast, while YORKTOWN's dive bombing attack approached from the northeast and the two ENTERPRISE squadrons approached from the southwest. The two earlier attacks by Torpedo 8 and Torpedo 6 contributed by delaying the spotting and launching of the Japanese attack.
@@takashitamagawa5881 I get that. But the torpedo planes changed the dynamic of the battle. The presence of the torpedo planes drew all the attention from the Japanese CAP, which allowed the dive bombers to attack without fighter opposition.
The attacks of the torpedo bombers did pull the IJN fighter coverage down to sea level. The fact that they could have regained altitude to deal with the dive bombers, does not negate the fact that due to low altitude target fixation, they didn't try to regain the altitude and probably did not see the need. The IJN also did not have good radios in the fighters and did not have any combat information centers on the ships to direct them.
300 "aircraft" is utterly disingenuous. Almost 60 were either search planes, or level bombers that were almost completely useless in naval strike. The TBD-1's (another 50) were pretty useless as well. (They did make good decoys to set up the strike by the SBD-3's, though). The Japanese had more fighters and naval strike aircraft. And they were arguably better on balance. The only aspect where the US was significantly superior was search assets. They were more likely to find the Japanese first, and that was ultimately decisive.
It is also true that the Japanese practice is able to get multi-carrier balanced strikes up in the air quickly, without losing too much fuel. The American strikes were all strung out, so that the torpedo bombers had no protection.
With No Air cover I think the US Shud have pursued them, avoided the big ships but try to take out the troop ships? You are going to fight them Somewhere...
Turns out the torpedo planes were completely worthless except they did get the Japanese planes down to a low altitude so the dive bombers did their thing. Sometimes I think the Lord is in control of this sort of stuff. 👍
Riiight. Japan lost four large carriers and the US lost one large carrier. Japan screwed up by sending two large carriers to Alaska attack instead of joining the Midway attack. Those six carriers could then have joined the Solomon campaign and defeated the US in Guadacanal. And then what? What does Japan then attack next?
You can debate the Aleutian mission, which had somewhat lesser carriers than the ones in the main body at Midway. What's hard to debate is that the Shokaku and Zuikaku were the two best Japanese carriers at the time. One was sitting in drydock getting repaired while the remaining half of it's air wing did nothing. The other was in top notch shape, but stayed home because it needed to replace half it's air wing.
Don't conflate the carriers in the Aleutian operation with those in Nagumo's fleet. The conversions were not equivalent in terms of capability or experience of their pilots (nor the quantity of aircraft) to the large flight decks on the Kido Butai. Junyo and Ryujo were both slower and much smaller. They each only carried 30 & 36 planes. This sort of rapid extrapolation may be suitable for the mind of an axis & allies (or other less detailed simulation game) player but is not suitable for historical analysis, facile and unserious conjecture about the six carriers triumphantly rolling up the Americans at Midway and Guadalcanal... no sir, just fanciful.
I am glad you have analysed this event with objectivity. Too many coincidences that made wander the validity of what has been said. Also the american losses the way they have been documented by the books are very vague and also being dismissive of the aircraft they lost. Alos another exaggerated event is when jim thatch shoots down tomanaga: you mean to say that as his plane was going down thacht flew by him and asked for his name?
regarding myth #5, if so, it was irrelevant, because the FACT is, when those dive bombers struck, within a few minutes, THREE japanese carriers were wrecked, and would soon sink.
The U.S. had four carriers. One was unsinkable. Called Midway Island. All those battleships, cruisers, and destroyers were useless if they couldn’t get into gun or torpedo range. The U.S. wasn’t going to allow that to happen . The lesson of battleships with no air cover had already been learned.
Contradicted himself a wee bit - the myth should have been "the torpedo planes opened up the carriers for the dive bombers." Had they not attacked, Nagumo could have launched his planes. The "sacrifice" claim stands.
They used a black powder charge to move the catapult that launched the airplanes. If you light the fuse and nothing happens, it's a bomb that hasn't gone off. I wouldn't want to be the guy who had to check and find out why. It's quite a large amount of explosives.
here's a comparison... a typical 357 magnum uses 10 grams of powder. there are 453 grams in a pound, so 50 pounds would be somewhere in the order of twenty two hundred 357 shells. even accounting that black powder is much less efficient than modern powder, trying to figure out why somewhere between five hundred and a thousand 357 shells haven't exploded (yet) would make even the most enthusiastic catapult mechanic look things over very slowly and carefully.
@@AlanToon-fy4hg the Navy actually did do that. Saratoga had been hit by torpedoes at Wake, but had a mostly intact air wing. Nimitz stationed her flyboys on the tarmac at Pearl Harbor before sending her to the West Coast for repairs. Most of the planes on Yorktown were lost at Coral Sea, so Nimitz pulled at least two squadrons (torpedo bombers and escort fighters) that were originally assigned to Saratoga to fill their place.
The Japanese planes could have gotten back to altitude after shooting down the torpedo planes but they didn't. So the attack did make a significant difference to the outcome. I don't see how Guadalcanal could be more devastating to the Japanese than losing 4 of their best carriers.
Why was the Island of Midway useless; because the Japanese knew exactly where it was; so it was easily neutralized. Carries move and no one knows where they are initially, making it impossible to attack them; you have to find them first. Had Japan been half intellligent about it's communications; they would have easily taken Midway but it was a stupid half assed moved; if they were going to attack Pearl Harbor with 6 carriers as they did; they should have at least invaded Hawaii and pushed the US fleet back to San Diego. The Japanese didn't even destroy the fuel stores in Pearl Harbor. The Pearl Harbor attack was a fools move.
How were the Japanese going to send at least 61 cargo ships worth of food and supplies to Hawaii every month. It would have taken that much to supply the troops and civilians with food. Those ships would then return to Japan empty. Just like most of them did to suppling most of the island they captured.
United States is decisively outnumbered at Midway yes I do agree with you that the Guadalcanal campaign was actually more decisive than the Battle of Midway but to say that the United States was not outnumbered at Midway is completely and totally false
UMMM, Four top of the line Japanese carriers, against three American Carriers. One American carrier was at half strength. So, 2.5 USA vs. 4 Japanese. Carriers? USA Outnumbered. Fighter planes? At the time, the zero was the best. American fighter planes were half as good. So fighter planes, Japan had the edge 2-1. USA outnumbered again. Torpedo planes? USA was a joke. Edge Japan, AGAIN. Bomber planes? USA had the edge there. THE ONLY EDGE. So tell me? Who should have won?
6 fleet carriers versus 3 for the USN, but we werent outnumbered? Several battleships, more heavy cruisers, destroyers and various support ships for Japan, and we werent outnumbered? You gents dont have your brains screwed in quite right.
I dont want to come off rude here, but your statement just isn't based in reality here. On the morning of the 4th of june the units that went into battle were evenly matched. Of the "6 fleet carriers" 2 of those were were over 1000 miles north of the battle. Some 2 days+ of sailing away, and they were supporting an operation to take 2 of the aleutian islands. Calling them part of the battle is disingenuous. Part of Operation MI? Sure, part of the battle of midway? No. And the US having an island with 2 airfields absolutely counts when we look at the order of battle, Miday contributes near 130 aircraft to the battle (equal to almost 2 carriers worth) and plays a pivotal role in creating nagumos dilemma. As for the rest of the japanese forces, they were dispersed in multiple fleets operating hundreds of miles apart and don't contribute to the battle at all. Nagumo really only had 26 (including support ships) ships to rely on during the combat.
@@ChuckleTee And although they caused no damage, the B-17s did actually take time off the game clock, so to speak, by causing the Japanese carriers to maneuver and elude bombs. They were unable, for a time, to face into the wind and try to launch.
"Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway" Was absolutely amazing book. Thank you sir!
The actual nuts and bolts of carrier ops and tactics explained in this book made my head explode
I think what Churchill said about the Battle of El Alamein could very well be applied to Midway: Now this is not the end. This is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.
For sure. They never regained the momentum, Germans and Japanese alike.
The US was massively out experienced.
It was not outnumbered in scouting aircraft.
Which is part of what helped the US. They at least had intel to act on.
That’s fair. Though to be honest, had anyone fought a Carrier battle before?
@rwarren58
Well technically both had once at Coral Sea.
The experience was at the operational level they had all trained together for years on the Japanese side and had participated in more battles than anyone on the American side.
@@rwarren58 Does the RN navy count?
@@LeePrice-r9u
None of the Japanese carriers had carrier to carrier battle experience until Coral Sea.
The two IJN large fleet carriers at Coral Sea didn't make it to the Battle of Midway.
None of the Japanese carriers at Midway had carrier to carrier battle experience.
USS Yorktown had extensive carrier to carrier battle experience at Coral Sea.
USS Yorktown was the only carrier at Midway that had carrier to carrier battle experience.
Excuse me, but taking out FOUR Japanese fleet carriers allowed the U.S. entre to the entire Western Pacific!
Not really. The Japanese still had 7 active aircraft carriers, but the stunning defeat at Midway, caused them to be far more conservative and to retreat to the Solomons and SW Pacific in an attempt to fortify that area, cut off Australia and secure the sea lanes from their East Indian and Indochina colonies, while continuing the fighting in Burma and China.
You're repeating the same idea they've shot down. It might have accelerated the end by a few months, we were going to outnumber them eventually.
@@fazoleso it worked.
@@fazole Yes really the us forces just barley held Guadalcanal the way it was. if IJN had not lost the main Carrier Forse at Midway, the American forces would never have held
Guadalcanal, no way no how. If the fighters and bombers had been based from carriers instead of Reboul the American forces wouldn't have had a chance of holding the island.
@@fazoleMidway effectively left the IJN with two first-line fleet carriers-Shokaku and Zuikaku. Ryujo and Zuiho were light carriers, and Hiyo and Junyo were too slow to really serve effectively as fleet carriers. Coral Sea had earlier left Shokaku damaged and Zuikaku with decimated air groups, so the Japanese Navy was really left in a tough spot.
That hour and a half between when Chikuma-1 should have detected the US Navy carriers and when TOne-4 actually did, is an ETERNITY in these circumstances.
Not out-numbered, but definitely outclassed. Fighters, torpedos, just to name a few
Nope, not out classed. That equipment held its own until better stuff came along.
@@timcvetic5054 The Japanese equipment was clearly superior. Their torpedoes were longer ranged and reliable - emphasis on reliable. Their Carrier crews were far more experienced. The US Dive Bombers were arguably superior, but that's it. Of course the US had superior intelligence, and that was decisive. But yeah, if our carriers were detected first and we lost all three to no Japanese loss - a completely possible outcome, that would have made a huge difference.
@@timcvetic5054 To say the American Equipment was not out Classed at Midway Is shallow. the Japanese had better torpedoes, and the Kate, was a superior to the junk the Americans had for a torpedo bomber. The F4F could stand a little more punishment, in a turning fight the Zero would eat it up, Dauntless was probably as good as Val dive bomber, but the IJN was a lot more experienced at hitting their mark.
Having read Walter Lord's 'Incredible Victory' only recently, I was struck by the way the American attacks, though ineffective individually, and that includes the attacks from Midway itself, put the Japanese 'off balance'. The Kido Butai had actually survived six or seven attacks already that morning...
Indeed, this argument is made forcefully in the book "Shattered Sword" by Jon Parshall and Anthony Tully, which came out four decades after Walter Lord's work.
@@takashitamagawa5881 the big hole here is how every one of those six or seven attacks from Midway zero problem finding Nagumo, yet the carrier aircraft needed luck bordering on divine intervention to get to the target. 🤔🤔🤔
Without the Japanese losses after the Battle of Midway, the campaign for Guadalcanal could not of happened, because those Japanese carriers and air crews would have made it impossible for the landings to occur or for the Marines to stay in supply.
I just posted to that effect and then saw your comment. Couldn't agree more and I wonder why the host didn't push back on that.
The Japanese still had about 7 carriers left after Midway, though, it's true each IJN carrier had only 50 or 60 planes vs 90 on US carriers due to their aircraft folding wing design. But Midway put Yamamoto into a defensive mindset, while the switch over to the shorter range Hamp version of the Zero fighter, critically reduced the escort capability coming from Rabaul. Many IJN pilots were sacrificed to fuel starvation in the Guadalcanal campaign.
@@fazole Yep, excellent points.
Midway certainly gave the US its first offensive initiative in the Pacific. I would add and emphasize, though, imo, that Midway did not automatically give the US a guarantee of victory. I think the first battles of Guadalcanal were the turning points in the Pacific.
Look at Savo Island, for example, even with the Japanese success in sinking US warships the supply ships at Tulagi were left intact. This action allowed the US to keep its toehold on Henderson Airfield (without having to worry about 4 extra IJN carriers as you mentioned).
@@fazole Stop it. Only 2 of the 7 were fleet carriers. Shōkaku and Zuikaku, the two largest and most powerful carriers in the world. Those 2 could carry 382 planes to the Enterprise, Yorktown, and Saratoga's 300. If Midway were reversed and Japan's carriers survived while sinking Enterprise, Yorktown, and Hornet the Japanese would have had 6 or 7 frontline fleet carriers vs Saratoga. If that had happened, the Marines don't land at Guadalcanal and the Allies likely evacuate the Solomons and New Guinea. The Essex class carriers were still a long time from being completed and brought to operational strength.
With the disparity of industrial production there was no way the Japanese were going to defeat the Americans after they had four fleet carriers sunk at Midway. The only way the Japanese could have defeated the Americans was with a quick decisive victory. Even that is debatable. Either way with four Japanese carriers at the bottom of the Pacific as a result of the Battle of Midway they were destined to lose. It was only a matter of time.
I wonder what would have happened if they tried to turn the pacific coast into the same shooting gallery the Germans were enjoying? Or was US merchant shipping not as heavy on the west coast at that time?
Spot on!
@user-gl5 I don't think there was much "shooting gallery" to be had. I think the internal transportation in the USA was being done by rail and truck, and likewise with international trade amongst US, Canada, and Mexico.
In contrast, the shipping that Germany attacked with varying degrees of success in the Atlantic was entirely intercontinental shipping, mostly involving USA providing supplies to help USSR and UK.
When the US supplied its own military with fuel, food, and other necessities, Japan did try to prevent those resupply efforts.
Very true
@@PeteOtton And how exactly are they getting there and remaining on station to do so? Not to mention the difference as Julian mentions in terms of the # of targets available.
Moreover, they couldn't do this because the US had a very powerful surface fleet operating off the west coast -- a deficit of oilers precluded forward deploying them, so Pye was drilling them hard off the west coast.
Japan isn't going to sail within range of that fleet + the land base airpower available on the west coast, no way.
I am so looking forward to Jon Parshall's upcoming book on 1942. What an awesome historian.
I've always wondered if Mitscher hadn't sent his flight off to no where and Hornet's dive bombers been involved in the attack, could have they have sunk all FOUR Japanese carriers at the same time. Mitscher not trusting Spruance and being arrogant enough to send his planes somewhere else on a gamble that flopped big time conceivably cost the US the Yorktown. IF all four carriers were sunk there would be no counter strike against Yorktown that would damage her.
IMO, Mitscher was a tool that needed to take a long walk off a short flight deck for his stunt.
One can only assume that Mitchel had the favour of high command to receive the pardon for his inexcusable behaviour at Midway. If we are playing the “what if” game then I think you are quite correct, not only did he cost his side the possibility of getting the Hiroyuki but as a consequence he also may have doomed the Yorktown.
@@Ross-e9o Mitcher was already selected for Admiral and would be promoted after the battle. He did end up in the doghouse after Midway. His next command was a land-based command involved Pacific Fleet Patrol-Bombers and then Halsey called him back to be the Soloman Island Air Commander. He eventually rehabilitated himself enough to get TF58/38. As you know he ended up working closely with Admiral Spruance again, but never seemed to have stepped out of line again.
Nimitz was big on second chances. I think if it hadn't been a risk to locate the carriers based on our carrier doctrine at the time and had been due to timidity, Mitcher would have been in real trouble.
Now if the Hornet's dive bombers had shown up at the same time as their torpedo planes, would the Enterprise and Yorktown pilots have had a smoke plume or two to investigate?
@@timothyhouse1622 Just had this conversation on Drachinifel’s video on Spruance & Fletcher. I agree in all respects.
@@ThumperE23 Mitscher disobeyed orders again when he told the P-38 pilots who were sent to shoot down Yamamoto who exactly the target was. If one of them had been shot down in Japanese-held territory by one of the escorting Zeros, and captured, they might have given away the fact that Station HYPO had broken the IJN codes.
Fully agree. Guadalcanal was the place when the tide began to turn.
Torpedo planes myth - isn't a myth - they still delayed Nagumo's counterpunch and distracted the Japanese CAP
it’s a myth that they pulled the fighter coverage down to sea level and were not able to deal with the dive bombers as a result. The timing indicates that the CAP had ten minutes between the last torpedo attack and the dive bombers arriving. What they did do was prevent Nagumo from spotting his decks because they were constantly maneuvering and having to land CAP fighters to rearm and refuel.
Indeed the three carrier torpedo squadrons all contributed to the U.S. Navy's success that morning, even if they didn't score a single hit. The same could be said about the earlier Midway based attacks. Their sacrifice was also frightful. John Waldron's Torpedo 8 squadron flying from HORNET lost all its planes, but one should remember that there was a Torpedo 8 detachment under Lt. Fieberling flying 6 TBFs from the island that lost 5 of 6 planes attacking HIRYU.
@@takashitamagawa5881 Had the Torpedo Bombers had torpedoes that actually worked they might have accomplished a lot more. Thank goodness the sailors who worked on the problem in the field eventually solved it without much help from the Navy who seemed to have a "we'll get around to it, eventually" attitude. My Dad was on USN subs out of Australia and didn't have much good to say about the Navy brass sending the boats out with lousy torpedoes.
@@michaeldelaney7271Especially since the Sub Commander there helped design the Mk14.
@@michaeldelaney7271The Mk13 aerial torpedo wasn’t fixed in the field like the Mk14 used by USN submarines. If anything the Mk13 was even worse, though its subpar delivery system, initially the Douglas TBD, would have limited the USN’s success even if the Mk13 was competent from the beginning. Even if armed with the best torpedoes of the day, the TBD would have struggled to survive long enough to make a successful torpedo run. By contrast, the USN’s fleet subs were solid, capable designs that were left effectively toothless by the Mk14’s flaws. And the submarines didn’t have dive bombers backing them up.
John's wallpaper won the battle of the Choral Sea!
Contrasts well with the shirt
May I chime in? That is the wittiest play on words i have ever herd!
Actually, it was his shirt...😊
His shirt won the battle off Leyte Gulf...
Coral sea
" _Dauntless_ " was the courage of the VT- Devastator crews !
They gave it all-
Lest we forget.
Coral Sea set up the possibility for a victory at Midway as two Kido Butai were not included due to damage inflicted and air wings depleted. Guadalcanal, the New Guinea campaign thru Operation Olympic did break the back of the IJN JIA.
The outnumbered myth was perpetuated by the movie. I saw it as an 8 year old in Corpus Christi, Texas ( a road there was named after VT 8 CO Waldron). With the beginning of the action showing the Midway fighters and carrier Devastators being wiped out, I leaned over and whispered to my dad asking him if we lost this battle.
When the first bomb struck the Japanese carrier the whole theater erupted.
So, it was not an incredible victory by the Americans. Well, it WAS an incredible defeat for the Japanese. Just ask them.
Those Japanese carriers would have been involved in the Guadalcanal campaign had they not been sunk at Midway. Considering how bad the naval engagements were around Guadalcanal without them, it could’ve been a very different story.
Not just the naval engagements... It would have made a world of difference if the Japanese could have a) resupplied during the day, and b) used ships designed to move cargo and troops instead of inefficient destroyers to get men and materiel to the beaches. The Cactus AF control of the skies kept those off limits.
one thing mr. parshall and i totally agree on is guadalcanal. it was the final part of the turn of the tide. but you cannot overlook the connection between doolittle, coral sea, midway, and guadalcanal. for the victory that occured during 1942 onward, they all needed to happen pretty much how it occured.
Jonathan Parshall is always outstanding! The Japanese really missed an opportunity to field the Zuikaku with the homeless Shokaku Air Group. The fact that this was not even considered is awful for the Japanese. Admiral Takagi in Coral Sea did begrudgingly use B5Ns as scouts which was contrary to Kido Butai Doctrine, the IJN was greatly averse to using carrier aircraft for scouting. The Soryu equipped with a Detachment of DY4 high speed Judy Dive Bombers was a huge step in the correct direction. A fifth carrier could have fielded extra CAP fighters and given more flexibility in striking Midway and the planned strikes against TF16 and TF17. The missing fifth carrier, its striking power and potential for scouting was a huge handicap.
Soryu didn't have Judy dive bombers, the Soryu dive bombers were Vals.
@@mylanmiller9656 There were two Judy Dive Bomber Prototypes that were being used as high speed Scouts. In addition to these two Scouts, each carrier was carrying a number of Zero Sen Fighters for the soon to be established garrison at Midway.
So the torpedo bombers did not intentionally "sacrifrice" themselves, but the effect was the same. The Japanese CAP was not in a position to deal with the dive bombers because they were dealing with the torpedo bombers. Also, how much ammunition did the CAP expend when they were attacking the torpedo bomber attacks?
I have a feeling I've seen (and read) enough Jon Parschall to answer the title questions too, but still: I see Jon Parschall 's wallpaper, I click on the video.
And he uses the term "Gantt chart". As an industrial engineer by education, I had to chuckle.
That wallpaper is soooo bad 😂
@@jamesmilbery His shirt is worse...
This is a very good video. My single objection is the reference to myths, not because the statements are not true but because all history loses its details over time. Re Midway - of course the battle of Coral Sea gave the US its first successes. So once blooded, US forces gained confidence and skill. Still one element of Midway that remains magical is re the torpedo bombers that distracted the Japanese. So let's reframe the story - the several attacks - which took time off the clock.. well that is actually heroic.
Excellent! Your expert "knows his stuff" about the Battle of Midway. Andy McKane, 22 August 2024, Maunaloa, Molokai.
Classic Jonathan Parshall shirt, classic Jonathan Parshall wallpaper, classic Jonathan Parshall wisdom.
The US actually had more planes but many of them were land based from Midway, not equipped or trained for dive bombing or torpedo attacks and were dropping bombs from too high elevation.
What surprises me is the number of Japanese pilots that survived Midway given that all four carriers were sunk, and the Japanese were not known for rescuing ditched pilots.
If we look at the photos of the flight deck there weren't a lot of plans ready to go, the deck below though had lots of bombs laying around from switching from a land attack to a carrier attack.
This was fascinating and gives us a sense of what was going on in the imperial navy or what wasn’t going on with them!
As I see it, Midway may have been important exactly because it made the Guaducanal campaign possible.
The zero hadmplenty of time but no ammo after depleting it with torpedoes planes
The carriers spent the entire morning recycling CAP fighters, which Parschall and Tully addressed in Shattered Sword. By the time of the dive bomber attack at 1020, each of the Japanese carriers had cycled a group of CAP fighters, a chutai of three, about 4 to 6 times, and some fighter aviators were on their second CAP patrol. One of the carriers hit in the morning attack actually seems to have launched the first fighter of a new CAP chutai right before the first bomb hit.
The Guadalcanal battle was nip and tuck because of the carrier shortage
The Japanese lost 2/3 of their active fleet carriers at Midway.
My understanding was that Midway allowed us to start at Guadalcanal.
Although the USA was not outnumbered in total aircraft because of land based air at Midway, the USA had only 3 aircraft carriers against the Japanese having 4. In surface ships the USN was definitely outnumbered, but they played no role in the battle. I think the USA was somewhat outnumbered in submarines, but they only played a role as recon. I don't think the torpedo bombers were deliberately sacrificed though their sacrifice lured the japanese CAP low and then the dive bombers had little or no opposition and sank three carriers in one massive strike.
This channel always does its best to redefine "clickbait".
You do realize American carriers carried more aircraft than the Japanese carriers?
VT-3 "lured" the CAP fighters to another quadrant of the battle, which opened up the dive bombers. The CAP was drawn to the torpedo bombers while some of them should have stayed in CAP. The myth is the first strikes drew the CAP to low level and that's what opened an opportunity for the dive bombers, which wasn't the case.
America had 3 carriers at Midway but they only used two. Hornet may as well not been there. With out the results at Midway Guadalcanal would have been a loss
I believe reading from his book that American carriers had larger air groups than Japanese carriers so 3 was almost equal to four. Read the book and check me on that
So the flight deck wasn't full, but below the flight there were enough planes with munitions to cause the catastrophic chain reaction of explosions, correct? Because only one, maybe 3 bombs hit the carrier.
Akagi took only one bomb, but Kaga and Soryu were hit multiple times.
Moodswingy I'm pretty sure you're correct. Other sources say that too; there were plenty of munitions and fuel on the hangar decks of the carriers
Not only that but they had fuel lines as well - refueling was done below decks. And the unused fuel lines weren't purged, so any damage would let raw fuel run out. Nasty combination the Japanese later addressed at least partially. They weren't all that big on damage control.
Kaga was hit by one bomb. If I remember right the others were hit by 6, 7, and 8 bombs.
@@matthewhecht9257 According to "Shattered Sword", Kaga was attacked by both Enterprise dive bomber squadrons (less three planes) and took at least five bombs. The other three aircraft, led by Lt. Best, landed just one bomb on Akagi. Soryu took three hits from Yorktown's dive bomber squadron.
Later the same day, Hiryu took four bombs from a composite Enterprise dive bomber group.
I'm a simple man, I see John Parshall and I click.
Twisting historical context
Torpedo bombers had no fighter escorts to cover their six. And the fighter planes that showed over the carriers were too high above to do any good.
Thank you.
The Americans were incredibly outnumber during the Midway Campaign. It was a typically overly complicated Japanese plan that divided their forces into 4+ Task groups that made it a even fight where it mattered.
Thanks for the perspective. I look forward to hearing about the Japanese not launching the attack on the fuel depots at Pearl Harbor.
The other issue is that Japanese radios in their planes were terrible, because they were improperly grounded, and most were simply removed from the plane. For this reason, there was no way that observers on the flight decks, or on other planes, were unable to order CAP fighters onto a different set of attackers.
great stuff!
:-)
So for carrier to carrier Japanese were roughly on par 300-382 navy to navy with 4 Japanese carriers vs 3 U.S. carriers but then must consider that midway had both army aircorp and marine Corp to boot which although didn't land a single bomb nevertheless managed to tie up aircraft launch and recovery procedures significantly allowing the carrier aircraft time to locate and strike
Jon is the man.
I thought that one of the scout planes had a radio out.
The Japanese honor response to their loss at Midway, that is that their surviving aviators which was most of their aircrew, were transferred to the battle in the Solomons flying out of Rabaul.
The Japanese Navy hierarchy did not want the junior aviators giving away to the Japanese public the loss and the errors of the IJN commanders.
Great Tuesday for me Jon Parshall twice(new videos) in one night. Great stuff!
Not in mere plane count, but in aircraft quality, TORPEDO quality and every skill set imaginable AT THAT MOMENT IN TIME, the U.S. forces were working at a total disadvantage. Plane count means nothing when one side has all the best ones flown by the experienced pilots, AND YET…… for sometimes the underdog wins, don’t they?
The US was beginning the industrial build-up in response to the Japanese.
The US plan was a holding pattern until the industry cut to maximum.
My speculation as to what helped turn the Japanese Army around on sending troops to Midway and Hawaii after the carrier-borne B-25 raid was fear of carrier-borne, JATO-assisted A-20Bs set to spray Japan at night at the height of Japanese Encephalitis season. The Lend Lease A-20Bs would have continued on for delivery to Vladivostok and arrived around dawn.
Fascinating talk.
US had how many battleships there? Cruisers? Destroyers? WELL?
Currently Ukraine is performing a kind of Doolittle raid in the Kursk oblast.
Doolittle raid: helped Yamamoto have his way, with the Army. Otherwise, perhaps no Midway until much later
I love Jon Parshall but I would like to push back on his statement regarding the torpedo planes because the Zeros had time to regain the altitude to oppose the dive bombers. Whether they could have or not is not relevant. They DIDN'T regain that altitude--and the reason they were as low as they were is because VT-8 and VT-6 and then VT-3 came in before the dive bombers and the Japanese CAP stayed down to deal with them. If there was no VT-8, VT-6, or VT-3, Japanese CAP would have been in position to oppose the dive bombers and the battle would have taken a very different course. The sacrifice of the torpedo planes set conditions to allow the dive bombers to attack unimpeded by CAP.
In the book "Shattered Sword" Parshall and Tully make the argument, restated in this video, that it was the lateral displacement of the Japanese CAP that was the more important factor opening up the sky to the dive bombing strikes. The Zeros were arrayed along the southeast axis battling Torpedo 3 and Jimmy Thach's Wildcats covering them. The torpedo attack came in from the southeast, while YORKTOWN's dive bombing attack approached from the northeast and the two ENTERPRISE squadrons approached from the southwest. The two earlier attacks by Torpedo 8 and Torpedo 6 contributed by delaying the spotting and launching of the Japanese attack.
@@takashitamagawa5881 I get that. But the torpedo planes changed the dynamic of the battle. The presence of the torpedo planes drew all the attention from the Japanese CAP, which allowed the dive bombers to attack without fighter opposition.
The attacks of the torpedo bombers did pull the IJN fighter coverage down to sea level.
The fact that they could have regained altitude to deal with the dive bombers, does not negate the fact that due to low altitude target fixation, they didn't try to regain the altitude and probably did not see the need.
The IJN also did not have good radios in the fighters and did not have any combat information centers on the ships to direct them.
300 "aircraft" is utterly disingenuous. Almost 60 were either search planes, or level bombers that were almost completely useless in naval strike. The TBD-1's (another 50) were pretty useless as well. (They did make good decoys to set up the strike by the SBD-3's, though). The Japanese had more fighters and naval strike aircraft. And they were arguably better on balance. The only aspect where the US was significantly superior was search assets. They were more likely to find the Japanese first, and that was ultimately decisive.
Yes you are right... it is stupid see numbers without consideration of quality and equipment
Don't forget the Vindicators.
@@williamallen63 No, it's best just to forget the Vindicators. ;-)
I wouldn’t wonder if the actual Japanese number was also smaller than on paper.
It is also true that the Japanese practice is able to get multi-carrier balanced strikes up in the air quickly, without losing too much fuel. The American strikes were all strung out, so that the torpedo bombers had no protection.
if you factor the land based planes, the US have numerical superiority over the Japanese navy.
With No Air cover I think the US Shud have pursued them, avoided the big ships but try to take out the troop ships? You are going to fight them Somewhere...
Turns out the torpedo planes were completely worthless except they did get the Japanese planes down to a low altitude so the dive bombers did their thing. Sometimes I think the Lord is in control of this sort of stuff. 👍
The separation of the US carrier forces would have proved beneficial to the IJN as it did the Americans ? just a thought !! ✌️
Riiight. Japan lost four large carriers and the US lost one large carrier. Japan screwed up by sending two large carriers to Alaska attack instead of joining the Midway attack. Those six carriers could then have joined the Solomon campaign and defeated the US in Guadacanal. And then what? What does Japan then attack next?
You can debate the Aleutian mission, which had somewhat lesser carriers than the ones in the main body at Midway.
What's hard to debate is that the Shokaku and Zuikaku were the two best Japanese carriers at the time. One was sitting in drydock getting repaired while the remaining half of it's air wing did nothing. The other was in top notch shape, but stayed home because it needed to replace half it's air wing.
Don't conflate the carriers in the Aleutian operation with those in Nagumo's fleet.
The conversions were not equivalent in terms of capability or experience of their pilots (nor the quantity of aircraft) to the large flight decks on the Kido Butai. Junyo and Ryujo were both slower and much smaller. They each only carried 30 & 36 planes.
This sort of rapid extrapolation may be suitable for the mind of an axis & allies (or other less detailed simulation game) player but is not suitable for historical analysis, facile and unserious conjecture about the six carriers triumphantly rolling up the Americans at Midway and Guadalcanal... no sir, just fanciful.
Noumea
I am glad you have analysed this event with objectivity. Too many coincidences that made wander the validity of what has been said. Also the american losses the way they have been documented by the books are very vague and also being dismissive of the aircraft they lost. Alos another exaggerated event is when jim thatch shoots down tomanaga: you mean to say that as his plane was going down thacht flew by him and asked for his name?
regarding myth #5, if so, it was irrelevant, because the FACT is, when those dive bombers struck, within a few minutes, THREE japanese carriers were wrecked, and would soon sink.
Where does Jon get his shirts?
Japan had more Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers and Submarines at Midway. And even one more Carrier.
The U.S. had four carriers. One was unsinkable. Called Midway Island.
All those battleships, cruisers, and destroyers were useless if they couldn’t get into gun or torpedo range. The U.S. wasn’t going to allow that to happen . The lesson of battleships with no air cover had already been learned.
What if the Doolittle flight had bombed the Imperial Palace?
If the Emperor had been killed the Military probably would have seized full control of the government. Then probably no surrender when they did.
This was really good. You need to lose the guy with the British accent.
Contradicted himself a wee bit - the myth should have been "the torpedo planes opened up the carriers for the dive bombers." Had they not attacked, Nagumo could have launched his planes. The "sacrifice" claim stands.
Just for different reasons :)
I Love the Hawaiian Shirt!
What does, fifty pounds worth of black powder, mean. I know a pound refers to a pound of silver. 16 ounces.
They used a black powder charge to move the catapult that launched the airplanes. If you light the fuse and nothing happens, it's a bomb that hasn't gone off. I wouldn't want to be the guy who had to check and find out why. It's quite a large amount of explosives.
here's a comparison... a typical 357 magnum uses 10 grams of powder. there are 453 grams in a pound, so 50 pounds would be somewhere in the order of twenty two hundred 357 shells. even accounting that black powder is much less efficient than modern powder, trying to figure out why somewhere between five hundred and a thousand 357 shells haven't exploded (yet) would make even the most enthusiastic catapult mechanic look things over very slowly and carefully.
A pound of something is a little less than half a kilogram.
It was outnumbered in total ships
Yamamoto's surface fleet played no part in the battle though. It stayed about 300 miles west.
They could have just as well have been on the moon. The only real players in the outcome were ones with landing decks.
Choral Sea? coral sea
Japanese training doctrine said Zuikaku should not top up it's air wing with squadrons transferred from Shokaku. Oops.
The U.S. Navy would have done exactly that....
@@AlanToon-fy4hg the Navy actually did do that. Saratoga had been hit by torpedoes at Wake, but had a mostly intact air wing. Nimitz stationed her flyboys on the tarmac at Pearl Harbor before sending her to the West Coast for repairs. Most of the planes on Yorktown were lost at Coral Sea, so Nimitz pulled at least two squadrons (torpedo bombers and escort fighters) that were originally assigned to Saratoga to fill their place.
Japan better aeroplanes, torpedoes, but element of surprise lost.
Well, they did wipe out virtually their entire carrier fleet.
Just saying.😅
Parshall's English diction is terrible. He can't seem to cure himself of the "You know" virus.
I stopped watching your excellent video as soon as the first obnoxious YT ad came. Sorry.
🤦♂️ dude really you get a second 🤦♂️ on this video
The Japanese planes could have gotten back to altitude after shooting down the torpedo planes but they didn't. So the attack did make a significant difference to the outcome. I don't see how Guadalcanal could be more devastating to the Japanese than losing 4 of their best carriers.
Why was the Island of Midway useless; because the Japanese knew exactly where it was; so it was easily neutralized. Carries move and no one knows where they are initially, making it impossible to attack them; you have to find them first. Had Japan been half intellligent about it's communications; they would have easily taken Midway but it was a stupid half assed moved; if they were going to attack Pearl Harbor with 6 carriers as they did; they should have at least invaded Hawaii and pushed the US fleet back to San Diego. The Japanese didn't even destroy the fuel stores in Pearl Harbor. The Pearl Harbor attack was a fools move.
How were the Japanese going to send at least 61 cargo ships worth of food and supplies to Hawaii every month. It would have taken that much to supply the troops and civilians with food.
Those ships would then return to Japan empty. Just like most of them did to suppling most of the island they captured.
The Japanese had more ships, more aircraft and more men. Yes the US was outnumbered and was on the ropes.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
United States is decisively outnumbered at Midway yes I do agree with you that the Guadalcanal campaign was actually more decisive than the Battle of Midway but to say that the United States was not outnumbered at Midway is completely and totally false
Show us your facts.
@@chipsawdust5816 so I posted my response apparently you've chosen not to respond to it or deleted
UMMM, Four top of the line Japanese carriers, against three American Carriers. One American carrier was at half strength. So, 2.5 USA vs. 4 Japanese. Carriers? USA Outnumbered. Fighter planes? At the time, the zero was the best. American fighter planes were half as good. So fighter planes, Japan had the edge 2-1. USA outnumbered again. Torpedo planes? USA was a joke. Edge Japan, AGAIN. Bomber planes? USA had the edge there. THE ONLY EDGE. So tell me? Who should have won?
Stopped listening when the American sold his dignity by saying 4 June rather than the correct June 4th.
Explain please
This is a joke by you, right?
Military date is day/month/year. Time is 24hr.
6 fleet carriers versus 3 for the USN, but we werent outnumbered? Several battleships, more heavy cruisers, destroyers and various support ships for Japan, and we werent outnumbered? You gents dont have your brains screwed in quite right.
I dont want to come off rude here, but your statement just isn't based in reality here. On the morning of the 4th of june the units that went into battle were evenly matched. Of the "6 fleet carriers" 2 of those were were over 1000 miles north of the battle. Some 2 days+ of sailing away, and they were supporting an operation to take 2 of the aleutian islands. Calling them part of the battle is disingenuous. Part of Operation MI? Sure, part of the battle of midway? No. And the US having an island with 2 airfields absolutely counts when we look at the order of battle, Miday contributes near 130 aircraft to the battle (equal to almost 2 carriers worth) and plays a pivotal role in creating nagumos dilemma. As for the rest of the japanese forces, they were dispersed in multiple fleets operating hundreds of miles apart and don't contribute to the battle at all. Nagumo really only had 26 (including support ships) ships to rely on during the combat.
@@ChuckleTee And although they caused no damage, the B-17s did actually take time off the game clock, so to speak, by causing the Japanese carriers to maneuver and elude bombs. They were unable, for a time, to face into the wind and try to launch.