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Thank you Chris, thank you Jen, thank you Simon! I look forward to learning more about criminals! I’m making a book of your sayings but heard your making one?
Simon there's 2 issues with your perceptions of Pearl harbor, firstly the Japanese bombed all usa military bases in the pacific not just Hawaii, the Hawaii attack was just the largest loss of life. 2ndly this one done because the Japanese intended to take control of all islands in the pacific including Hawaii simoa the Philippines etc and they wanted to pre-clude the USA's ability to intervene.
Count your blessings about not hearing family history from your relatives, Simon. My dad told us lots of stories about his ancestors. And they turned out to be just that--stories. He had quite the imagination, I will give him that!
I've watched probably 100 different videos and documentaries covering the Black Dahlia. This is the first time I've heard a lot of information within just the first 10 minutes that I have never heard covered in any other video. The fact that you focus on humanizing the victims where other TV shows documentaries channels and podcasts failed to is something I do really appreciate about the casual criminalist. You guys really do give the utmost respect and care to telling the victim stories while not romanticizing the murderer which is tragically rare.
I just came to the comments to write basically the same thing. It is absolutely incredible that most of what's in the public sphere of "knowledge" is questionable, and so much real information has been left out. So glad that The Casual Criminalist does such great research!
Simon is always apologizing for his rants but I personally love them. It helps my ADHD brain follow along with the story. I wish he knew that’s a huge reason I love his channels.
Man, I had never heard how they broke Elizabeth's death to her folks. That is low. And this is the most respectful treatment of Elizabeth Short I've come across. Thank you Simon and crew.
Ikr, I’ve heard the story of her death before, but not about how her family reacted to it. Especially with how people get with the story, that’s gotta be awful for the family.
I think she's one reason the media doesn't do this. There were a few cases where the media reported death and the cops compelled them to stop spoiling police business and hurting families.
@@tamlandipper29 this channel makes money off of ad revenue, when their videos don't get demonitized. I'm sure it's nice to make some money for their efforts. Having to skip an ad after 5 seconds must be such an inconvenience to you. You poor thing.
...as a parent, found kids don't really care a wit if their stroller be 2nd hand, they're happy to be crusin'...a parent just happy not to lug on a bargain, a win, win, win.
But wtf has happened to stroller prices? My husband and I got a top of the line jogging stroller, brand new from the company, for like $150. That was 2006 when our daughter was born, and we used it all the way til she was 4 and able to keep up with us on her feet (walking at least). It had 20-inch wheels made like good mountain bike ones, a fully-collapsable body so that the whole thing took up little space in a trunk (we took it everywhere), super lightweight but strong metal frame, tons of 'bells n' whistles' features. So what on Earth does a THOUSAND-dollar one have?????
I don't have children, I had NO CLUE strollers were that expensive! Wow, and it's something that is only used for a limited time! I would assume there must be a huge market for second hand strollers. $1000 wow ..
@@taliaryn3699 You would assume WRONG then, unfortunately. And that goes for all baby/toddler equipment, clothing, bedding, etc., even though most of them are still in flawless condition when they're outgrown. I do get the sense that mothers will accept hand-me-downs from relatives and close friends pretty readily, but buying them, not so much. It's not about the money, it's the shame, and that's less of a factor with loved ones. I'm a full-time Ebay reseller, and the 'insider' reseller word is: avoid baby items like the plague, for sourcing inventory. On a few occasions I have sourced baby stuff whether I meant to or not, by winning abandoned storage units at auction. I remember one that had several pairs of Nike baby shoes, still with their boxes. Let me clarify: shoes made with the same designs and materials as those made for professional basketball players, but for infants who can't even sit up, lol. So yeah these were still flawless and had originally sold for CRAY-CRAY money, and yet I couldn't even get $5/pair for them. I finally offered them at on of my yard sales which I run occasionally to unload "dead" stock, and had to accept an offer of $1/pair. Funny enough, it was an older man, and I strongly suspect he was a reseller himself. I thought, "Ha, good luck, buddy." I havent' done a scientific survey or anything, but the strong sense I get is that even people who will buy used items for themselves are less likely to buy used baby things. But that wasn't always the case. I remember as a kid in the 80's there was a whole second-hand shop in my town called 'Nice As New Children's Store' but I never see places like that anymore. My theory is that the internet has everything to do with it, this huge collective voice telling parents (especially moms) how perfect they have to be all the time. I've even seen professional pediatric experts advise against buying used strollers, car seats, stuff like that where safety is in question; the gist is, "Why risk it? Better safe than sorry!" And even if it's just clothes or whatever, I think there's a particular sense of shame, of failure, for buying used. Like, "If I can't afford new stuff for my baby, then what business did I have bringing one into the world?" It's bullsh if you ask me. I scooped up ALL the best second-hand deals for my daughter, still do! And at 16 now, she has a strong preference for used stuff, not only because she's into vintage aesthetics, but her political awareness about wasteful consumerism (I adore her, obviously). The one exception was that stroller, but only because my husband and I were unable to find a used jogging stroller anywhere near as badass as that new one. And we used the sh!t out of it, up and down actual mountains, through mud, rocks, creeks, probably animal manure, LOL, for over 4 years. Definitely got our money's worth there.
In the 1970s my mom had to identify the body of her best friend who had died in a motorcycle crash. The in person identification really took a toll on her, she still gets upset thinking about it.
A high school acquaintance of mine, shortly after graduating, went out to NYC with some friends. The area we were from didn't really have any rail lines, least of all a subway system, so bear in mind that they would not have been familiar with the risks associated with such. At some point, they got drunk and wound up on the NYC metro. While riding it, one of my acquaintance's drunk friends dared my also drunk acquaintance to jump from their train to another train that was passing. My drunk acquaintance took that dare - or, at least, attempted to. That poor girl's poor mother had to purchase a round-trip plane ticket (not cheap, as if salting the wound), fly halfway across the country to NYC, and identify her daughter's remains in-person. I'm not certain as to the details of her condition post-mortem, but I have seen what train fatalities look like. Breaks my heart to think of what that poor woman had to witness and endure. Rest in peace, HM. 🕊️
Something Chris and Simon may not know is that, back in the day, the LAPD was notorious for sending "uncooperative" people to mental institutions. Red's stint there may not have been legitimate.
Ty Simon for your respectful reading of this excellent script. One of the worst things about this case is it's terrible handling & sensationalism. George Hodel's book is one of the guiltiest of this. It's a total crap job. The photos look nothing like Short, the subject having thick facial features in comparison to Betty, whose own delicate ones make her resemble that '70s & '80's icon The Nagel WOMAN.
Back then, it didn't even have to be police calling. My maternal grandfather had his wife committed 3 separate times. She wasn't crazy She drank drank. THEY USED ELECTROTHERAPY ON HER
Definitely the most respectful take on the Black Dahlia case I've heard. Well done, Chris. I find murder merch so tacky and disrespectful. I saw somebody selling Christmas ornaments of Manson, Gacy, Berkovitz, Bundy etc. Yeah, that's what you want to feel festive: faces of murderers and rapists hanging on a tree. So classy.
I went to a festival where someone was selling serial killer prayer candles and I desperately wanted to flip the table in their faces. Some people are monsters.
I’ve seen the photos of Elizabeth Short, and the fact that her mother had to see her like that absolutely destroys my heart. I feel so horrible for her.
I 100% agree. Even if I was being entirely truthful I would probably still fail due to my anxiety. Though I would hope they would be less suspicious if they knew the person has an anxiety disorder.
If you have constant anxiety they could get a baseline reading and go from there. I’m sure that plenty of people with anxiety have taken polygraph tests no problem. They’ve been given for decades and anxiety didn’t start yesterday. In fact the past was far more anxiety inducing what with a couple world wars and whatnot compared to today where people never leave their cocoon and any amount of discomfort must be medicated with powerful and addicting narcotics like Xanax. We’ve become a baindaid society where people want to be medicated instead of getting to the root of their problems.
@cotati76 Sometimes, the root of the issue is chemical, though. No amount of talking to a therapist is going to change that. Especially if your anxiety prevents you from being able to talk to strangers. Isn't it better to take medication and somewhat function than to hole up in your house and have your groceries delivered to your porch because it's too overwhelming to bathe, get dressed, drive to the store, and deal with the crowds of people? Medication sometimes is the ONLY effective treatment.
Honestly, I do appreciate how the writers try talk about the victims in a humanizing way while Simon rips into the culprits. So many people like to tell “stories” about crimes for entertainment, and don’t care that these are real people - let alone what their loved ones go through hearing strangers revel in the details of their loved one’s demise. Also, shame on those reporters. Her daughter died in a gruesome manner, yet decided to act like they were pre-teens making prank calls. Gross.
I like hearing the emotional side of these stories but I also really enjoy forensic files, where it is clinical. Just the facts and science of how the crime was solved. Some stories are hard to hear without detaching a bit from the morbid reality the families faced
People follow true crime because it’s gruesome and captivating, not because we care about sob stories. It isn’t that victims don’t matter, but that is largely true when it comes to telling a compelling story about the sensational details that actually draw people to these cases. The virtue signaling about “humanizing” the least interesting parts of these stories is a bit nauseating.
Simon's stroller/ pram/ push chair story just makes me wonder why more people aren't aware of the second hand market for these things as the first choice. They are always barely used, why would anyone buy these things brand new!?
@@raulibarra4355we got ours last year and the top of the line is in the $1200 range for stroller and carrier. We had to get a Nuna because of accessibility issues we had with others for my husband. Trust me - there is a HUGE difference in a $500 and a $1200 one, ours is a smooth ride even off road bumpy roads, and folds up half the size of others we looked at. That’s not to say there are good $500 ones, but they often resale for about $50, where ours even after 5 years of use was still more than half price. We decided the stroller and bassinet (we got a SNOO which was worth every penny as she slept though the night within the first month and was sleep trained by 6) were the two things we’d spring on (and nice furniture but we figured that will last them 10+ years). Everything else has been used, we spent less than $300 on all clothing for the first 18 months.
So there's expiration dates on a lot of them. Its stupid. We paid $400+ for the fucking car seat that never saw an accident- had to throw it away because if I got caught selling it I'd be fined
There was no voicemail or answering machines. Also, no telemarketers, so it was someone who wanted/needed to talk to you. Besides it's a mystery who is on the line. Who doesn't want to solve a mystery
yeah I was born just before the turn of the millennium so hearing a landline ring as a young kid I always associated "phone ringing" with "grownups' beeswax." I rarely answered it bc I was the younger of 2 & odds were good that the caller would immediately just ask me to go get a parent 😂😂irony's now I'm grown & don't have to answer the phone for nearly anyone except for when family or my bank calls. and does anyone else here have a phone voice they seem to use? I've noticed I drag my sentences otp probably bc my attention's divided
I’m convinced she knew her killer. There’s so much personal hatred inflicted on her. You don’t force someone to eat shit, spend an indeterminate number of days beating them, mutilate their body and leave them to be found posed in the most humiliating way possible without pure, intense anger and hatred. I also discount the idea of a serial killer stumbling on an unfortunate victim as there aren’t any other killings that fit this MO.
Except we know that many serial killers have inflicted similar violence and humiliations upon their victims without having known them beforehand. I’ll ask you: what could she have done to someone to make them do this to her? A sadistic psychopath capable of torture and dismemberment wouldn’t need a reason other than pure sadistic thrill to do this to a person.
You're thinking of stabbings. This isn't that. They may have met her but the actions weren't personal, like resentment towards her. Theres plenty of SKrs that do it out of joy and practice.
Admittedly I had listened to a lot of other podcasts on the Black Dahlia but as soon as I saw you had one, I had to listen. I love how much more research the writers do, not taking other’s conclusions as fact just to recycle content and the skeptical, logical take brought to the story. Also, Hawaii was still a colony at the beginning of WW2. Just fyi.
I read a book based on her life and it had photos of her corpse in the autopsy room. I had nightmares for weeks on end. It's the only book that I got rid of after I read it because of those photos. I gave the book to my mother and then she donated it after she read it. Neither of us wanted in our houses because of the horrors that poor young girl suffered.
@@StyxswimmerDid you hear the description? That’s one of the most horrifyingly mutilated bodies I’ve ever heard of. Much worse than an animal mauling would be, honestly.
@darkstarr984 I did 4 years in the marines and went to combat. I watched one of my friends hit an IED, blown apart and I had to help pick up his body parts. I'm not bothered by much anymore.
When you have the mental space for it, the Hinterkaifeck murders is a very interesting unsolved case from the 1800's. I'd also love to see this shows take on the "Bloody Benders" case
Listening to Simon butchering all those Bavarian names would be hilarious. Supposedly students of the police academy solved the case when they looked at it with new eyes and modern methods, but they wouldn't publish the name. So who knows. It most definitely is a fascinating case. I hope one of Simon's writers picks it up. Maybe they haven't because a lot of the source material is in German?
Decoding the Unknown and Casual Criminalist are some of my favorite things to fall asleep to. I like Simon's other channels too, but something about the way he delivers those two is very relaxing.
I love how this channel is evolving and the quality thoughtful writing. It’s really starting to stand out as a genuine attempt to provoke thought, not just recount gore or repeat tired ‘facts’ that appear on multiple other channels. Well done Chris and thank you Simon. Personally not a fan of the recounting of gore and find it disrespectful to the victims but I am interested in the investigations and the scene setting to put the different cases in context. This was epic.
As this is a famous case, I was dreading the graphic content. But you handled that very well, thank you for that. And thank you for at least trying to restore some dignity to the victim.
Elizabeth Short's story always stuck with me because it varied so much from account to account. She seemed much like me at her age, struggling with grief trying to run away from something that they aren't even sure of. I hope she is resting in the peace that she never truly got in her life. Thank you for taking care in assembling such a wonderful team of writers for this channel who actually took care with telling this very sad end to a life that was only just starting and take so much care to make sure we know as much about the person(s) that lost their life.
Small side note - Black Dahlia, Red Rose really does present a very strong case even if I personally don't agree with it, in a well written and enjoyable (as much as the subject can be enjoyable) and if people are curious I say it is well worth the money to read the book.
I never understood why anyone considered it important to the story if she was a sex worker or a girl who slept around. She was horribly tortured and murdered. No one deserves that.
@@milkshake1993You're right. High risk is why it matters to an investigation, it's a good potential lead. The media and society cares because they like to judge people. But still, annoying seeing people taking violence against prostitutes, loose women, etc, and using the situation to make a false statement about "sex work" not being a matter of bad morality. It's low. They know when talking about a murder, only the hardest of hearts is gonna wanna come out and drag a victim through the mud, and if someone does, the context of the crime makes it easy for the "sex work" supporter to paint the other person in a negative light. Prostitution and other sex work is morally bad, as well as high risk. I wish people would stop taking advantage of tragedies to try to spread false crap like "it doesn't matter if someone did x y and z." It doesn't mean they deserved death, but it doesn't become an amoral issue either.
It's not about if she deserved it, it's about who she might have ran into who would want to commit that crime on her. Prostitutes are often targets by serial killers who just pick them up on the street or have them come to an adress. And they are not often missed directly. In this case from what I heard she did what many women with no money and looks did back then, going out for dinner. Not putting out at all. That does seem likely and would put her at risk from some guy who didn't want to take no for an answer. Plus she stayed at houses of many people.
I have watched every episode of the Casual Criminalist and have loved them all, but the way this case was written was beautifully written and presented in a completely different way than I have ever heard the Black Dahlia case before. Chris is an extremely talented writer. I've got chills!
I love it when your writers cover the very well-known cases because you bring so many previously unknown details to our ears that other creaters may have (definitely) missed. Examples (that come to mind) The Hillside Strangler/The Real Harley-Quinn and John Wayne Gacey. I've literally listened to 1000's of hours of true crime, and I thought I'd heard everything there was to hear about these two cases - you illuminated things I had never heard before! I was genuinely captivated. All of your researchers and writers are awesome! I say list all of the highly covered cases and do them justice!
It was a nice, unexpected, laugh out loud break in the middle of a horrific true crime story. ...but seriously Simon - you don't even know NWA in the context of US censorship & free speech??!? Hmmm...I see a Biographics video coming up!! ;-p
Pretty sure 99% of the listeners are true crime buffs like me. We listen to dozens of these types of shows but I look forward to yours the most. You and your staff always have such great unbiased information.
Respectfully done... while trying to keep things as lighthearted as you can, you guys still respectfully dig into these cases. I always feel I learn something here. It's strange to me that this killer was never caught. I know there was no international database for this and that back then... but I would think that a murderer this disturbed would have struck again and again until they were caught; especially after getting away with it. Hopefully there will be an answer to this one someday.
I've only gotten so far as the childcare tangent, but I wanna say that if Simon's annoyed about how much strollers (a few years' use) cost, he'd be extremely upset about how much wheelchairs (possibly lifetime) go for.
I’m lucky enough to be in the U.K. (nhs has literally saved my live many times over) but wheelchairs are still an absolute fortune here, and it’s SO hard to get support to buy one via NHS 😑 so I have the option of a manual chair I cannot push myself (my shoulders, elbows and wrists subluxate all the time) or my crutches (which I also buy myself because NHS ones don’t work for my wrists either!) that cost ~£100 every 3-5 years, for as long as I can manage. And just not leaving my bed most days.
The recovered memory craze was the main driver of the Satanic Ritual Abuse panic, starting with the book "Michelle Remembers" and leading to the McMartin Preschool trial, which is still the most expensive criminal trial in U.S. history. Well-meaning therapists were trained to "recover" memories of abuse, not realizing that they were implanting traumatic false memories into the minds of little kids. This might actually be a really good subject, if not for this channel, then maybe Decoding the Unknown?
No. This is a common misconception… the main driver was the fact it was real. False memory has been scapegoated as the reason for the “satanic panic” but the actual reason is that these things WERE indeed happening. Based on evidence such as the steep sudden decline of church attendance and the increase in instances of brutal murder and animal abuse, evidence points to the satanic panic being much much more real than “panic”
I respect this channel for showing restraint. I've listened to so many true crime casts, documentaries and channels. I've become kind of numb to the horror because they always go into sometimes unnecessary detail that I just brace myself for the worse or just click off because it's just too much. Yet you guys acknowledge these are real people and these are really terrible things that they had to go through. It's a breath of fresh air especially with stories that have gruesome acts. The moments of levity and empathy are what leave less drained after watching.
Identifying a body of someone who died a terrible death can be quite a trauma for the person forced to identify them. In the 1950s, my grandfather had to identify the body of his cousin's husband. The man worked in an waste incinerator plant and, because at the time security mesures were inexistant, he had fallen into the furnace. By the time they retrieved his body, there wasn't much left. His wife was supposed to identify him at first, but knowing what had happened, my grandfather took her place and was the one who had to view and identify the remains. The only way he could tell it was really his cousin's husband was because of a ring he wore on his hand that had fused with his finger. He had nightmares for weeks after the event.
Thanks to your Grandfather the widow was saved a life time of seeing in her memory that horrible sight.......she remembered him as he was going out the door that last morning.
As a teen growing up in Medford, I didn't know about this case until I came across the historical marker placed near where her home was on Salem St (the home was demolished in the late 1950s to make way for the construction of Interstate 93). I was already on my way to the library to return a book and fell into a rabbit hole researching the case for the next 4 hours.
I wondered how long before you'd get around to covering this story! Keep up the good work, TangentBoi! Chris and Jen are up there with Danny and Sam from Brain Blaze 👍
This script is beautiful. I especially loved the description of how her mother didn’t want her last memory to be the condition in which her murderer left her. Aw man.
The intro to this story is horrific. I agree with Simon, another purpose of modern forensics (i.e. DNA, fingerprints, dental records, etc.) should be to save loved ones from the soul scarring task of identifying the mangled bodies of loved ones, if possible.
While I agree I do feel like people back then were made of tougher stuff because life was just harder overall and death was often sudden and violent. I've been doing research lately about historic murders in my area and reading through newspapers from the 1870s to the 1920s it's crazy how much horrible stuff happened to people just in my local area. Another thing I realized was how common it was for things like murder to just never be solved because even in the 1920s fingerprinting was still in it's infancy and a lot of people didn't really believe in it, and there was basically no other kind of forensics used to solve crimes. It seems like the most common technique was to round up every person in the community that didn't really fit in and just beat the hell out of all of them until somebody confessed or the police just got tired of beating them.
@@JackParsons2 Yes, yep, and uh-huh. Horrible as the news of the day may seem, it's things like what you're talking about here ^ that inform me that we're living in the best of times, because our humanity is always improving, along with our understanding of how things work. When someone says the past was better, I like to ask "When?" like what decade would they go back to if they could. And then I say, "Before you answer, there's a catch. You won't be the same 'you' as now. Characteristics like your sex, gender, race, mental and physical health, mental and physical abilities, citizenship, your parents' economic class, etc. --all these things will be randomly generated for you, and you won't know who or what you'll be, until you are back in that decade you call perfect. And once you're there, you can't come back to now. Still wanna do it?"
@@audreymuzingo933 If the person wouldn't be the same person, then answering the question either way is irrelevant to the person you're posing the question to. It doesn't make sense. You're just doing that to prove a point.
A friend of Short's wrote a book in 2000, pinning the crime on Welles. He was never a real suspect to the Police. Guthrie, had apparently written some disturbing sexual letters, that prompted the recipient's sister to show them to the police. But they quickly cleared him of any serious involvement.
The Welles woman is not to be trusted. She was 12 when Elizabeth was murdered. Friends with a 12 y.o when you're 22? Sounds like a woman just wanting to cling on to some tenuous local connection with the family to give herself an air of authority or importance.
Simon, and the rest of the crew, I’d like to thank you for all the content that has helped through a tough 2 years! I’m now about to start graduate school in the fall for history!
Make sure you get a state teaching licensure as well in case you can't get a job in academia or just want to get paid more for your first job out of school. Public schools actually pay teachers with advanced degrees of any kind more than a lot of universities pay assistant professors.
Thank you SO much for cutting through all the bull**** in this case and giving us a clear, concise and honest report of all the evidence and why each hypothesis should be given credence or why it should be discounted. It’s very hard to do that for this murder.
I have also several stories on The Black Dahlia. Previous stories leaned heavily on promiscuity and actress wannabe. It was nice to see a version that was not sensationalized (if that’s even possible with the actual facts). I definitely learned more information that I never heard before. 👍
I have a tangent myself about polygraphs and that is that they are ABSOLUTELY useless. Without going into a whole life story, my father and his wife were worthless at best of times, and one time they were trying to say that I was a habitual liar, sent my the psychologist, who without ever talking to me hooked me up to a "polygraph", asked me a bunch of questions which I told the truth. In this case the polygraph supported me and the supposedly professional psychiatrist said that I tricked the polygraph, and then hooked me up to another one, and now I (being 8 years old) was nervous and scared answered the same questions with the exact same answers and failed. This is why I say that polygraphs and psychiatrists are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
I left a 5 star review on Spotify to do my part! It’s still at 5 stars as of right now. Also I love when you do the more famous cases, it’s a perfect mix of unheard of stories and famous stories. You break them down so well and so much better than any other channel or documentary
Your team did an absolutely amazing job on this video. Extra kudos to Chris for his hard work. Out of all of the videos I have watched on this depressing case, this had to be my favorite one with the most believable evidence and case proceedings. You guys are great
Truly exceptional script from Chris, absolutely fantastic deep dive episode. I have heard this case many times but this is the best, most factual presentation I’ve heard. Also, the quality of the writing was sensational!
I loved how much there was in this on Short and her family. It made me think of a book I just read called the Five which investigates the lives of the Ripper victims, proving that most of them weren’t prostitutes.
I generally look up the subject of whatever comes up in these videos, and I generally try to find any crimes scene photos while listening so I can kinda come to my own conclusions...and boy do I regret it. That was beyond horrific to look through and I literally couldn't recommend it less to anyone reading this.
This was very respectful and I am grateful. I absolutely hated that Black Dahlia movie (w/ Aaron Echkhart) when it came out. I expected a mostly factual storyline, with some Hollywood embellishment, but it was literally all nonsense from the start. Only after I watched it, I'm not even sure I finished it, did I find out the film was based off a fictional novel and not the real case. I was so upset about how fake it was.
I was having a chat with my partner just the other day about how warped some true crime shows can be. The true crime space has become so focused on the mystery or the murderer that they forget that real people died. During that chat, I specifically mentioned that Casual Criminalist isn't like that, and that Simon and his writer have always been much more focused on giving humanity back to the victims than idolizing the murderers. I had missed this video somehow, and I appreciate that I came across it so recently after having that discussion. Thank you Simon, for caring so much about the real people you talk about. And thank you to all of the CC writers for doing the same.
In the 40's, many people were on party lines, which meant the phone rang for everyone on your line. Not answering your phone could be really annoying, or concerning, to your neighbours, depending on the kind of neighbours you had. They could also pick up and answer the call for you, something they really weren't supposed to do, but, neighbours. And yes, they could also eavesdrop on your conversations, so speaking in code was common.
@Real Aiglon Finally got around to checking that, and you are correct, that is the currently accepted format. But I'm old, and used to doing it the other way, so I make no promises :)
This was a great video, extremely informative about things I never came across for her case before. I love when your channels cover even common topics/cases because it is always really well researched and respectful. Thank you for that! I liked the video so much I feel compulsed to leave a comment, some things I really enjoy with these videos but also to feed the algorithm gods. Your writers are always great, really thorough and extremely clever. Chris was amazing, and I also really loved that paragraph toward the beginning that Simon commented on. Fantastic wording and really beautiful! I have to give a lot of praise to Jen too for being my favorite editor on RUclips, as well. I've never paid much attention to editing before these videos, but she really makes me want to watch all of your content and makes it difficult for me to go back to pure audio podcasts! I find I even rewatch the video version of something I've listened to just to watch what she does with the video editing. Absolutely love all of Simon's work, though, so thank you to him for being a great voice to listen to and a wonderful personality too (he's always interesting with the tidbits he adds). Thanks for another great video to your whole team!
I appreciate your takes on these classic cases. Admittedly I always avoided watching videos on this murder due to the oversaturation of money grabs... happy to have a fresh, respectful view. Please keep sprinkling in the well-known cases with your fantastic writers doing their awesome research.
Wow this has to be one of the best episodes they’ve ever done. Really well done by Chris. Also, huge amount of respect for getting Larry’s permission to use his research even though it wasn’t necessary since you cited him.
Everything you do on RUclips is worth watching. You inform in an articulate, yet humorous manner, and it's very entertaining. Thanks, mate. God Bless you, Simon.
Simon your writers for Casual Criminalist are true maestros with words. And I'll chime in with praise along with everyone else regarding the respectful way the victims and their families are treated and the truth and depth to the storytelling.
May Betty Short rest easy. It makes me sick to think of what she went through in that week, but she's safe now and no-one can ever hurt her again. Thanks for the video!
I just want to say that I felt that tangent about strollers to my SOUL. They're SOO expensive. We ended up with a £50 second hand one. New it'd have been over £300 and I told EVERYONE how I got it CHEAP cause I was so proud of my cheap-ass stroller. Kids are expensive. also good video, of course, as always.
I been following Biographics, Geographics for yearsrs. I also love this channel despite the disturbing contents. You are the highlight of youtube Simon. Thanks for all the great work!
Paraphrasing here: "People say they like how you guys humanize the victims and make the story about *them* and tear into the perpetrators". Tear away, Simon. Tear away. You do it how it should be done. Unless they are protecting a child or other defenseless person, the perpetrator should always be torn into. Awesome, as always!
Simon, always a legend but Chris what a script!!! Research is above and beyond. The true horror murder of this beautiful young woman has been too long over looked
Great tangent Simon!!!!! its awful how much they charge for baby things! And!!! I love family history! My father and i took the Ancestry DNA test and found out his mother wasn't just telling stories about being a wild woman ;) great episode!
2nd the baby/stroller/pram scam...invest in a sling (0-18/20mo), backpack (18-3yrs) & shopping trolley....had a free pram & just used it to hold shopping....even the backpacks are scams get 2nd hand!....also LOVE this take on this case, seen close to 10 & STILL heard something new.
Well done, Chris. Beautiful work. And yes, historiography is important. Always, always find the original source for any historical belief, even if cited by multiple sources.
Nobody ignored phone calls in the 40's because telemarketing did not start until the late 70's. If someone called you on the phone up until the early 80's you picked the damn thing up as it was usually important. If the phone rang after 9pm in most homes whoever called better be announcing someone's death otherwise they would get quite the ass-chewing. Different times.
thank you, Chris (and Simon) for leading with the family, and their additional victimization. i hope every person involved in torturing that family gets what's coming to them... its hard enough to have a child die. harder when that child died by violence, but to have your loss PLAYED with that way is unforgiveable
Chris, take a bow sir. That was really great. The sensitivity you showed the victim was pure class in comparison to so many other people who have covered this case.
You ROCK Simon! I l9ve all your vids on RUclips. I've been subscribed for the past year or two. Keep sending great content our way. Much love from California!
This was an extremely informative and eye opening video. I have read and watched a number of items on the case but this presentation introduced so many aspects I hadn't heard before. Put together nicely and well done.
I was a bit hesitant to watch this one due to the nature of the subject matter but this was really quite excellent. Good work Chris/Larry/Jen and of course Blaze Boi.
This is without a doubt the best treatment of this tragic case I have ever seen--and I have seen a lot of them. The description of Ms. Short as a real human being was great. Thank you for giving her back her dignity.
In Hollywood they have a death museum that covers pretty much every big murder case or serial killer from back in the day. Worth the look. It’s where I first learned about the Black Dahlia and many more. Keep up the good work Simon and co.
This has been my favorite case for years - even before I started obsessively studying true crime stuff in the last several years. Thank you for getting to it. I've watched every documentary available (including the movie from a few years ago that took a lot of "artistic" liberties). I've also read 2 of Steve Hodel's books, in the second one he took all of the evidence he had to the current (several years ago) DA for Los Angeles - Hodel's belief is that his father, George, was Elizabeth Short's murderer. The DA told Hodel, after going through all the information/evidence, that if his dad (George Hodel) were still alive that he would definitely file murder charges and take George to trial. Steve Hodel also believes that his father committed the "Lipstick Murders" in Chicago which was a year or so before the Black Dahlia murder - he does make an interesting case but I doubt that daddy dearest did it. He posited that the elder Hodel, who did visit Chicago at the time, had killed and dismembered little Suzanne Degnan (not sure about the spelling). The grizzly details were similar - also, Elizabeth Short's body was found next to "Degnan Blvd." in Los Angeles. It was actually on the address of a different street, but was also right at the end of Degnan Blvd.
Medford native here. Ive been obsessed with this case since I was a teen. Ellroys account, or the detective having dinner with him, on Feast of Death (an actual nonfictional theory also on you tube) was so compelling. It seems most plausible. Highly suggest watching. Its CRAZY
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Thank you Chris, thank you Jen, thank you Simon! I look forward to learning more about criminals! I’m making a book of your sayings but heard your making one?
Simon there's 2 issues with your perceptions of Pearl harbor, firstly the Japanese bombed all usa military bases in the pacific not just Hawaii, the Hawaii attack was just the largest loss of life. 2ndly this one done because the Japanese intended to take control of all islands in the pacific including Hawaii simoa the Philippines etc and they wanted to pre-clude the USA's ability to intervene.
Britanne Drexel case?
Count your blessings about not hearing family history from your relatives, Simon. My dad told us lots of stories about his ancestors. And they turned out to be just that--stories. He had quite the imagination, I will give him that!
why haven't you inspected Jack Anderson Wilson? He was a leading suspect for a while now
.....
I've watched probably 100 different videos and documentaries covering the Black Dahlia. This is the first time I've heard a lot of information within just the first 10 minutes that I have never heard covered in any other video. The fact that you focus on humanizing the victims where other TV shows documentaries channels and podcasts failed to is something I do really appreciate about the casual criminalist. You guys really do give the utmost respect and care to telling the victim stories while not romanticizing the murderer which is tragically rare.
That's The Casual Criminalist way!!
Yeah! I didn't know about most of the newspaper stuff. (Just the media flurry)
I just came to the comments to write basically the same thing. It is absolutely incredible that most of what's in the public sphere of "knowledge" is questionable, and so much real information has been left out. So glad that The Casual Criminalist does such great research!
Completely agree. The only other I have found that does the same is Mr Ballen.
That Chapter does a great job as well. I love both channels and the work and thought put into the videos.
Simon is always apologizing for his rants but I personally love them. It helps my ADHD brain follow along with the story. I wish he knew that’s a huge reason I love his channels.
I just want to know what kind of stroller her got.
I have ADHD I find it distracting .
Man, I had never heard how they broke Elizabeth's death to her folks. That is low. And this is the most respectful treatment of Elizabeth Short I've come across. Thank you Simon and crew.
Those bastards need to burn
This is a new detail to me as well. What a jerk move.
Ikr, I’ve heard the story of her death before, but not about how her family reacted to it. Especially with how people get with the story, that’s gotta be awful for the family.
Utterly incredible, I agree.
I think she's one reason the media doesn't do this. There were a few cases where the media reported death and the cops compelled them to stop spoiling police business and hurting families.
I CANNOT understand why anyone would listen to this podcast on Spotify and miss out on ALL THE IMPORTANT WORK JEN DOES!❤
Hmm. Maybe because Spotify doesn't make me sit through at least six unskippable adverts? Most of which are for mobile games that are borderline scams.
@@tamlandipper29 "uBlock Origin", go get it and stop complaining.
@@tamlandipper29 this channel makes money off of ad revenue, when their videos don't get demonitized. I'm sure it's nice to make some money for their efforts. Having to skip an ad after 5 seconds must be such an inconvenience to you. You poor thing.
To avoid that annoy background changing on the name cards.
Who?
I am a boring middle-aged father, and Simon's 2nd-hand stroller rant nourished my soul.
...as a parent, found kids don't really care a wit if their stroller be 2nd hand, they're happy to be crusin'...a parent just happy not to lug on a bargain, a win, win, win.
But wtf has happened to stroller prices? My husband and I got a top of the line jogging stroller, brand new from the company, for like $150. That was 2006 when our daughter was born, and we used it all the way til she was 4 and able to keep up with us on her feet (walking at least). It had 20-inch wheels made like good mountain bike ones, a fully-collapsable body so that the whole thing took up little space in a trunk (we took it everywhere), super lightweight but strong metal frame, tons of 'bells n' whistles' features.
So what on Earth does a THOUSAND-dollar one have?????
I don't have children, I had NO CLUE strollers were that expensive! Wow, and it's something that is only used for a limited time! I would assume there must be a huge market for second hand strollers. $1000 wow ..
@@taliaryn3699 You would assume WRONG then, unfortunately. And that goes for all baby/toddler equipment, clothing, bedding, etc., even though most of them are still in flawless condition when they're outgrown. I do get the sense that mothers will accept hand-me-downs from relatives and close friends pretty readily, but buying them, not so much. It's not about the money, it's the shame, and that's less of a factor with loved ones.
I'm a full-time Ebay reseller, and the 'insider' reseller word is: avoid baby items like the plague, for sourcing inventory. On a few occasions I have sourced baby stuff whether I meant to or not, by winning abandoned storage units at auction. I remember one that had several pairs of Nike baby shoes, still with their boxes. Let me clarify: shoes made with the same designs and materials as those made for professional basketball players, but for infants who can't even sit up, lol. So yeah these were still flawless and had originally sold for CRAY-CRAY money, and yet I couldn't even get $5/pair for them. I finally offered them at on of my yard sales which I run occasionally to unload "dead" stock, and had to accept an offer of $1/pair. Funny enough, it was an older man, and I strongly suspect he was a reseller himself. I thought, "Ha, good luck, buddy."
I havent' done a scientific survey or anything, but the strong sense I get is that even people who will buy used items for themselves are less likely to buy used baby things. But that wasn't always the case. I remember as a kid in the 80's there was a whole second-hand shop in my town called 'Nice As New Children's Store' but I never see places like that anymore. My theory is that the internet has everything to do with it, this huge collective voice telling parents (especially moms) how perfect they have to be all the time. I've even seen professional pediatric experts advise against buying used strollers, car seats, stuff like that where safety is in question; the gist is, "Why risk it? Better safe than sorry!" And even if it's just clothes or whatever, I think there's a particular sense of shame, of failure, for buying used. Like, "If I can't afford new stuff for my baby, then what business did I have bringing one into the world?"
It's bullsh if you ask me. I scooped up ALL the best second-hand deals for my daughter, still do! And at 16 now, she has a strong preference for used stuff, not only because she's into vintage aesthetics, but her political awareness about wasteful consumerism (I adore her, obviously). The one exception was that stroller, but only because my husband and I were unable to find a used jogging stroller anywhere near as badass as that new one. And we used the sh!t out of it, up and down actual mountains, through mud, rocks, creeks, probably animal manure, LOL, for over 4 years. Definitely got our money's worth there.
I'm not a parent, but I like shoes; I wouldn't even spend that much on those :)
In the 1970s my mom had to identify the body of her best friend who had died in a motorcycle crash. The in person identification really took a toll on her, she still gets upset thinking about it.
A high school acquaintance of mine, shortly after graduating, went out to NYC with some friends. The area we were from didn't really have any rail lines, least of all a subway system, so bear in mind that they would not have been familiar with the risks associated with such.
At some point, they got drunk and wound up on the NYC metro. While riding it, one of my acquaintance's drunk friends dared my also drunk acquaintance to jump from their train to another train that was passing. My drunk acquaintance took that dare - or, at least, attempted to.
That poor girl's poor mother had to purchase a round-trip plane ticket (not cheap, as if salting the wound), fly halfway across the country to NYC, and identify her daughter's remains in-person. I'm not certain as to the details of her condition post-mortem, but I have seen what train fatalities look like. Breaks my heart to think of what that poor woman had to witness and endure.
Rest in peace, HM. 🕊️
Something Chris and Simon may not know is that, back in the day, the LAPD was notorious for sending "uncooperative" people to mental institutions. Red's stint there may not have been legitimate.
Ty Simon for your respectful reading of this excellent script. One of the worst things about this case is it's terrible handling & sensationalism. George Hodel's book is one of the guiltiest of this. It's a total crap job. The photos look nothing like Short, the subject having thick facial features in comparison to Betty, whose own delicate ones make her resemble that '70s & '80's icon The Nagel WOMAN.
YUSSSSSS!!!
Just like Christine Collins experienced when her son, Walter, went "missing".
@@lLushKitty Exactly!
Back then, it didn't even have to be police calling. My maternal grandfather had his wife committed 3 separate times.
She wasn't crazy
She drank drank.
THEY USED ELECTROTHERAPY ON HER
@@annawalker7853 Imagine the awkward Thankgivings! Thanks for sharing.
Definitely the most respectful take on the Black Dahlia case I've heard. Well done, Chris.
I find murder merch so tacky and disrespectful. I saw somebody selling Christmas ornaments of Manson, Gacy, Berkovitz, Bundy etc. Yeah, that's what you want to feel festive: faces of murderers and rapists hanging on a tree. So classy.
I went to a festival where someone was selling serial killer prayer candles and I desperately wanted to flip the table in their faces. Some people are monsters.
Like I can get the fascination with these people but who is going to buy a candle of their face Jesus Christ people 🤣
Disgusting.
Wait what?
WTF that's sick. These are real-life people.
I’ve seen the photos of Elizabeth Short, and the fact that her mother had to see her like that absolutely destroys my heart. I feel so horrible for her.
@UCuVDMQ4cPFy5BZBUYqjx3oA It's ironic your profile picture says no to hate yet you're promoting Racism.
Some sick fucks out there.
It's shocking and especially after that journalist rang her..what unmitigated cruelty
So true 😔
I like to think they had a sheet over her and she only saw her face.
Polygraphs basically just show how nervous you are during questioning. I have generalized anxiety disorder. I would definitely refuse a Polygraph.
I 100% agree. Even if I was being entirely truthful I would probably still fail due to my anxiety. Though I would hope they would be less suspicious if they knew the person has an anxiety disorder.
If you have constant anxiety they could get a baseline reading and go from there. I’m sure that plenty of people with anxiety have taken polygraph tests no problem. They’ve been given for decades and anxiety didn’t start yesterday. In fact the past was far more anxiety inducing what with a couple world wars and whatnot compared to today where people never leave their cocoon and any amount of discomfort must be medicated with powerful and addicting narcotics like Xanax. We’ve become a baindaid society where people want to be medicated instead of getting to the root of their problems.
Yeah. I’d be in a cold sweat all over just from being questioned at all.
@@cotati76Xanax is almost never given anymore.
@cotati76 Sometimes, the root of the issue is chemical, though. No amount of talking to a therapist is going to change that. Especially if your anxiety prevents you from being able to talk to strangers. Isn't it better to take medication and somewhat function than to hole up in your house and have your groceries delivered to your porch because it's too overwhelming to bathe, get dressed, drive to the store, and deal with the crowds of people? Medication sometimes is the ONLY effective treatment.
Honestly, I do appreciate how the writers try talk about the victims in a humanizing way while Simon rips into the culprits.
So many people like to tell “stories” about crimes for entertainment, and don’t care that these are real people - let alone what their loved ones go through hearing strangers revel in the details of their loved one’s demise.
Also, shame on those reporters. Her daughter died in a gruesome manner, yet decided to act like they were pre-teens making prank calls. Gross.
I like hearing the emotional side of these stories but I also really enjoy forensic files, where it is clinical. Just the facts and science of how the crime was solved. Some stories are hard to hear without detaching a bit from the morbid reality the families faced
People follow true crime because it’s gruesome and captivating, not because we care about sob stories. It isn’t that victims don’t matter, but that is largely true when it comes to telling a compelling story about the sensational details that actually draw people to these cases. The virtue signaling about “humanizing” the least interesting parts of these stories is a bit nauseating.
Simon's stroller/ pram/ push chair story just makes me wonder why more people aren't aware of the second hand market for these things as the first choice. They are always barely used, why would anyone buy these things brand new!?
you answered your own question....lack of awareness lol thats why name brand strollers can cost $1200 US....
It is also a status symbol thing, which is silly to me.
I dont know where you guys get that price. I was shopping for one last year and it was around $500 for a good one
@@raulibarra4355we got ours last year and the top of the line is in the $1200 range for stroller and carrier. We had to get a Nuna because of accessibility issues we had with others for my husband. Trust me - there is a HUGE difference in a $500 and a $1200 one, ours is a smooth ride even off road bumpy roads, and folds up half the size of others we looked at. That’s not to say there are good $500 ones, but they often resale for about $50, where ours even after 5 years of use was still more than half price. We decided the stroller and bassinet (we got a SNOO which was worth every penny as she slept though the night within the first month and was sleep trained by 6) were the two things we’d spring on (and nice furniture but we figured that will last them 10+ years). Everything else has been used, we spent less than $300 on all clothing for the first 18 months.
So there's expiration dates on a lot of them. Its stupid. We paid $400+ for the fucking car seat that never saw an accident- had to throw it away because if I got caught selling it I'd be fined
A phone call was a family event in the 40s. You could ignore it. But no one ever did. They would fight to answer it.
Even in 80's sitcoms like Rosanne 😏
There was no voicemail or answering machines. Also, no telemarketers, so it was someone who wanted/needed to talk to you. Besides it's a mystery who is on the line. Who doesn't want to solve a mystery
I remember the excitement when our phone rang in the ‘80’s in Ireland, was the novelty
@@Redgolf2 yeah, heck even into the nineties. the phone would ring and in every room in the house someone would yell 'I'll get iiitt!!'
yeah I was born just before the turn of the millennium so hearing a landline ring as a young kid I always associated "phone ringing" with "grownups' beeswax." I rarely answered it bc I was the younger of 2 & odds were good that the caller would immediately just ask me to go get a parent 😂😂irony's now I'm grown & don't have to answer the phone for nearly anyone except for when family or my bank calls. and does anyone else here have a phone voice they seem to use? I've noticed I drag my sentences otp probably bc my attention's divided
Simon having to check himself "I realize I sometimes say something insensitive if I am not thinking properly" such growth, such awareness 👏👏👏👏👏👏
I think that Chris needs a raise maybe a few extra beard blaze products?
He always makes famous cases new and refreshing
Or a nice meeting with Danny in the basement!
@@TheLissaRae That sounds like a trap...
His weight in Magic Spoon.
Maybe some extra time out of the Writer's Office, aka Simon's Basement
chris deserves to have their chains loosened a touch, simon, you hear the people!
I’m convinced she knew her killer. There’s so much personal hatred inflicted on her. You don’t force someone to eat shit, spend an indeterminate number of days beating them, mutilate their body and leave them to be found posed in the most humiliating way possible without pure, intense anger and hatred. I also discount the idea of a serial killer stumbling on an unfortunate victim as there aren’t any other killings that fit this MO.
One word: Hodel. He did, in fact, know Elizabeth Short. That has finally been established as a certainty.
Nope it was dr walter Bayley. A surgeon that focused on female only anatomy.
Except we know that many serial killers have inflicted similar violence and humiliations upon their victims without having known them beforehand. I’ll ask you: what could she have done to someone to make them do this to her? A sadistic psychopath capable of torture and dismemberment wouldn’t need a reason other than pure sadistic thrill to do this to a person.
You're thinking of stabbings. This isn't that. They may have met her but the actions weren't personal, like resentment towards her. Theres plenty of SKrs that do it out of joy and practice.
@barryguerrero6480 Yup. Most likely George Hodel did it based on circumstantial evidence.
Admittedly I had listened to a lot of other podcasts on the Black Dahlia but as soon as I saw you had one, I had to listen. I love how much more research the writers do, not taking other’s conclusions as fact just to recycle content and the skeptical, logical take brought to the story.
Also, Hawaii was still a colony at the beginning of WW2. Just fyi.
Correction: "Territory"
@@jerrydavison1176 semantics
@@jerrydavison1176 colonized
@@trevorwilliams6362 after giving it much thought, yea, colonized.
State vs territory doesn't matter. The fact it was the military base that was attacked is what mattered.
I read a book based on her life and it had photos of her corpse in the autopsy room. I had nightmares for weeks on end. It's the only book that I got rid of after I read it because of those photos. I gave the book to my mother and then she donated it after she read it. Neither of us wanted in our houses because of the horrors that poor young girl suffered.
That gave you nightmares? Why?
@@Styxswimmer it’s pretty gruesome tbh
@@StyxswimmerDid you hear the description? That’s one of the most horrifyingly mutilated bodies I’ve ever heard of. Much worse than an animal mauling would be, honestly.
@darkstarr984 I did 4 years in the marines and went to combat. I watched one of my friends hit an IED, blown apart and I had to help pick up his body parts. I'm not bothered by much anymore.
When you have the mental space for it, the Hinterkaifeck murders is a very interesting unsolved case from the 1800's. I'd also love to see this shows take on the "Bloody Benders" case
Bloody Benders would be a great Simon topic.
1920s
Listening to Simon butchering all those Bavarian names would be hilarious.
Supposedly students of the police academy solved the case when they looked at it with new eyes and modern methods, but they wouldn't publish the name. So who knows.
It most definitely is a fascinating case. I hope one of Simon's writers picks it up. Maybe they haven't because a lot of the source material is in German?
He's got one on the hinterkifeck murders
It might be on decoding the unknown, one of his other channels
Decoding the Unknown and Casual Criminalist are some of my favorite things to fall asleep to. I like Simon's other channels too, but something about the way he delivers those two is very relaxing.
I love how this channel is evolving and the quality thoughtful writing. It’s really starting to stand out as a genuine attempt to provoke thought, not just recount gore or repeat tired ‘facts’ that appear on multiple other channels. Well done Chris and thank you Simon. Personally not a fan of the recounting of gore and find it disrespectful to the victims but I am interested in the investigations and the scene setting to put the different cases in context. This was epic.
As this is a famous case, I was dreading the graphic content. But you handled that very well, thank you for that. And thank you for at least trying to restore some dignity to the victim.
Elizabeth Short's story always stuck with me because it varied so much from account to account. She seemed much like me at her age, struggling with grief trying to run away from something that they aren't even sure of. I hope she is resting in the peace that she never truly got in her life.
Thank you for taking care in assembling such a wonderful team of writers for this channel who actually took care with telling this very sad end to a life that was only just starting and take so much care to make sure we know as much about the person(s) that lost their life.
Small side note - Black Dahlia, Red Rose really does present a very strong case even if I personally don't agree with it, in a well written and enjoyable (as much as the subject can be enjoyable) and if people are curious I say it is well worth the money to read the book.
I never understood why anyone considered it important to the story if she was a sex worker or a girl who slept around. She was horribly tortured and murdered. No one deserves that.
You're correct, either way she was putting herself in a high risk enviroment.
@@milkshake1993You're right. High risk is why it matters to an investigation, it's a good potential lead. The media and society cares because they like to judge people. But still, annoying seeing people taking violence against prostitutes, loose women, etc, and using the situation to make a false statement about "sex work" not being a matter of bad morality. It's low. They know when talking about a murder, only the hardest of hearts is gonna wanna come out and drag a victim through the mud, and if someone does, the context of the crime makes it easy for the "sex work" supporter to paint the other person in a negative light. Prostitution and other sex work is morally bad, as well as high risk. I wish people would stop taking advantage of tragedies to try to spread false crap like "it doesn't matter if someone did x y and z." It doesn't mean they deserved death, but it doesn't become an amoral issue either.
@@godwarrior3403unless they film it and call it porn, then its fine right?
It's not about if she deserved it, it's about who she might have ran into who would want to commit that crime on her. Prostitutes are often targets by serial killers who just pick them up on the street or have them come to an adress. And they are not often missed directly.
In this case from what I heard she did what many women with no money and looks did back then, going out for dinner. Not putting out at all. That does seem likely and would put her at risk from some guy who didn't want to take no for an answer. Plus she stayed at houses of many people.
@@godwarrior3403sex work IS amoral. "They don't deserve death" - so they deserve other bad things happening to them? Some "God Warrior" you are
I have watched every episode of the Casual Criminalist and have loved them all, but the way this case was written was beautifully written and presented in a completely different way than I have ever heard the Black Dahlia case before. Chris is an extremely talented writer. I've got chills!
I love it when your writers cover the very well-known cases because you bring so many previously unknown details to our ears that other creaters may have (definitely) missed. Examples (that come to mind) The Hillside Strangler/The Real Harley-Quinn and John Wayne Gacey. I've literally listened to 1000's of hours of true crime, and I thought I'd heard everything there was to hear about these two cases - you illuminated things I had never heard before! I was genuinely captivated. All of your researchers and writers are awesome! I say list all of the highly covered cases and do them justice!
Thank you for humanizing the victim. Chris is an amazing writer and Simon voices the much needed compassion beautifully.
Simon asking what is South Central, and what is NWA was the most defining moment of his absolute lack of any gangster
It was a nice, unexpected, laugh out loud break in the middle of a horrific true crime story. ...but seriously Simon - you don't even know NWA in the context of US censorship & free speech??!? Hmmm...I see a Biographics video coming up!! ;-p
@@u-neekusername4430 I laughed hard, especially coming from a man who has covered such a wide variety of things
Pretty sure 99% of the listeners are true crime buffs like me. We listen to dozens of these types of shows but I look forward to yours the most. You and your staff always have such great unbiased information.
I'm part of the 1% who are just Simon Whistler buffs.
Both comments here describe me to a “t”..
Respectfully done... while trying to keep things as lighthearted as you can, you guys still respectfully dig into these cases. I always feel I learn something here.
It's strange to me that this killer was never caught. I know there was no international database for this and that back then... but I would think that a murderer this disturbed would have struck again and again until they were caught; especially after getting away with it. Hopefully there will be an answer to this one someday.
I've only gotten so far as the childcare tangent, but I wanna say that if Simon's annoyed about how much strollers (a few years' use) cost, he'd be extremely upset about how much wheelchairs (possibly lifetime) go for.
I had a triple stroller. I feel the pain.
Working in long term care for the elderly will leave you broken hearted when looking at the cost of everyday items.
Two words...medical stroller RIP MY BANK ACCOUNT
As a disabled person who has to live with the American "healthcare" system...FUCKING THANK YOU.
I’m lucky enough to be in the U.K. (nhs has literally saved my live many times over) but wheelchairs are still an absolute fortune here, and it’s SO hard to get support to buy one via NHS 😑 so I have the option of a manual chair I cannot push myself (my shoulders, elbows and wrists subluxate all the time) or my crutches (which I also buy myself because NHS ones don’t work for my wrists either!) that cost ~£100 every 3-5 years, for as long as I can manage. And just not leaving my bed most days.
Simon’s genius is his ability to collect amazing writers for his channels. Chris is as the very top of the list, his writing is superb! Thank you
The recovered memory craze was the main driver of the Satanic Ritual Abuse panic, starting with the book "Michelle Remembers" and leading to the McMartin Preschool trial, which is still the most expensive criminal trial in U.S. history. Well-meaning therapists were trained to "recover" memories of abuse, not realizing that they were implanting traumatic false memories into the minds of little kids.
This might actually be a really good subject, if not for this channel, then maybe Decoding the Unknown?
No. This is a common misconception… the main driver was the fact it was real. False memory has been scapegoated as the reason for the “satanic panic” but the actual reason is that these things WERE indeed happening. Based on evidence such as the steep sudden decline of church attendance and the increase in instances of brutal murder and animal abuse, evidence points to the satanic panic being much much more real than “panic”
I respect this channel for showing restraint. I've listened to so many true crime casts, documentaries and channels. I've become kind of numb to the horror because they always go into sometimes unnecessary detail that I just brace myself for the worse or just click off because it's just too much. Yet you guys acknowledge these are real people and these are really terrible things that they had to go through. It's a breath of fresh air especially with stories that have gruesome acts. The moments of levity and empathy are what leave less drained after watching.
Identifying a body of someone who died a terrible death can be quite a trauma for the person forced to identify them. In the 1950s, my grandfather had to identify the body of his cousin's husband. The man worked in an waste incinerator plant and, because at the time security mesures were inexistant, he had fallen into the furnace. By the time they retrieved his body, there wasn't much left. His wife was supposed to identify him at first, but knowing what had happened, my grandfather took her place and was the one who had to view and identify the remains. The only way he could tell it was really his cousin's husband was because of a ring he wore on his hand that had fused with his finger. He had nightmares for weeks after the event.
Brutal.
Thanks to your Grandfather the widow was saved a life time of seeing in her memory that horrible sight.......she remembered him as he was going out the door that last morning.
As a teen growing up in Medford, I didn't know about this case until I came across the historical marker placed near where her home was on Salem St (the home was demolished in the late 1950s to make way for the construction of Interstate 93). I was already on my way to the library to return a book and fell into a rabbit hole researching the case for the next 4 hours.
I wondered how long before you'd get around to covering this story!
Keep up the good work, TangentBoi! Chris and Jen are up there with Danny and Sam from Brain Blaze 👍
You mean down there. In the basement.
This script is beautiful. I especially loved the description of how her mother didn’t want her last memory to be the condition in which her murderer left her. Aw man.
The intro to this story is horrific. I agree with Simon, another purpose of modern forensics (i.e. DNA, fingerprints, dental records, etc.) should be to save loved ones from the soul scarring task of identifying the mangled bodies of loved ones, if possible.
Yes like the Uvalde babies, many of whom were shot in the face.
Didn’t have dna in the 1940’s
While I agree I do feel like people back then were made of tougher stuff because life was just harder overall and death was often sudden and violent. I've been doing research lately about historic murders in my area and reading through newspapers from the 1870s to the 1920s it's crazy how much horrible stuff happened to people just in my local area. Another thing I realized was how common it was for things like murder to just never be solved because even in the 1920s fingerprinting was still in it's infancy and a lot of people didn't really believe in it, and there was basically no other kind of forensics used to solve crimes. It seems like the most common technique was to round up every person in the community that didn't really fit in and just beat the hell out of all of them until somebody confessed or the police just got tired of beating them.
@@JackParsons2 Yes, yep, and uh-huh. Horrible as the news of the day may seem, it's things like what you're talking about here ^ that inform me that we're living in the best of times, because our humanity is always improving, along with our understanding of how things work.
When someone says the past was better, I like to ask "When?" like what decade would they go back to if they could. And then I say, "Before you answer, there's a catch. You won't be the same 'you' as now. Characteristics like your sex, gender, race, mental and physical health, mental and physical abilities, citizenship, your parents' economic class, etc. --all these things will be randomly generated for you, and you won't know who or what you'll be, until you are back in that decade you call perfect. And once you're there, you can't come back to now. Still wanna do it?"
@@audreymuzingo933 If the person wouldn't be the same person, then answering the question either way is irrelevant to the person you're posing the question to. It doesn't make sense. You're just doing that to prove a point.
I gotta say the writers for this channel really go above and beyond. Really digging to find as many primary sources as possible.
This case is tragic, but the amount of suspects questioned is staggering. Suspects including Orson Welles, as well as folk musician Woody Guthrie.
Did any of them have actual ties to the case or were they just questioned because of references to them + proximity? That’s so wild!
Orson welles? wtf? can you elaborate on that?
A friend of Short's wrote a book in 2000, pinning the crime on Welles. He was never a real suspect to the Police. Guthrie, had apparently written some disturbing sexual letters, that prompted the recipient's sister to show them to the police. But they quickly cleared him of any serious involvement.
@@joseybryant7577 What?! Woodie Guthrie?! Get out!
The Welles woman is not to be trusted. She was 12 when Elizabeth was murdered. Friends with a 12 y.o when you're 22? Sounds like a woman just wanting to cling on to some tenuous local connection with the family to give herself an air of authority or importance.
Love this channel and 'That Chapter', both bring humour into tragic subjects whilst still respecting the victims and the subject matter.
Lets give it a gooo
Or turdy turd. (33th)
Simon, and the rest of the crew, I’d like to thank you for all the content that has helped through a tough 2 years! I’m now about to start graduate school in the fall for history!
Make sure you get a state teaching licensure as well in case you can't get a job in academia or just want to get paid more for your first job out of school. Public schools actually pay teachers with advanced degrees of any kind more than a lot of universities pay assistant professors.
Thank you SO much for cutting through all the bull**** in this case and giving us a clear, concise and honest report of all the evidence and why each hypothesis should be given credence or why it should be discounted. It’s very hard to do that for this murder.
I have also several stories on The Black Dahlia. Previous stories leaned heavily on promiscuity and actress wannabe. It was nice to see a version that was not sensationalized (if that’s even possible with the actual facts). I definitely learned more information that I never heard before. 👍
I have a tangent myself about polygraphs and that is that they are ABSOLUTELY useless. Without going into a whole life story, my father and his wife were worthless at best of times, and one time they were trying to say that I was a habitual liar, sent my the psychologist, who without ever talking to me hooked me up to a "polygraph", asked me a bunch of questions which I told the truth. In this case the polygraph supported me and the supposedly professional psychiatrist said that I tricked the polygraph, and then hooked me up to another one, and now I (being 8 years old) was nervous and scared answered the same questions with the exact same answers and failed. This is why I say that polygraphs and psychiatrists are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
Oh my...I love the screen door analogy!!!
At 8 yes old!?! What the ****? I'm sorry you had to go through that 😞
I love love the shout-out to Larry Harnisch. It really proves that your team doesn't try to take credit and gives credit when it's due! Love it!
Loss, pain, struggle redemption; essential in a good story like Simon's Stroller. Keep up the good work!
I left a 5 star review on Spotify to do my part! It’s still at 5 stars as of right now. Also I love when you do the more famous cases, it’s a perfect mix of unheard of stories and famous stories. You break them down so well and so much better than any other channel or documentary
Your team did an absolutely amazing job on this video. Extra kudos to Chris for his hard work. Out of all of the videos I have watched on this depressing case, this had to be my favorite one with the most believable evidence and case proceedings. You guys are great
Truly exceptional script from Chris, absolutely fantastic deep dive episode. I have heard this case many times but this is the best, most factual presentation I’ve heard. Also, the quality of the writing was sensational!
I loved how much there was in this on Short and her family. It made me think of a book I just read called the Five which investigates the lives of the Ripper victims, proving that most of them weren’t prostitutes.
That was a good 📖 book 😊
I'm going to be honest I held a lot of misconceptions about Elizabeth Short. This has broken all those misconceptions, thank you.
I generally look up the subject of whatever comes up in these videos, and I generally try to find any crimes scene photos while listening so I can kinda come to my own conclusions...and boy do I regret it. That was beyond horrific to look through and I literally couldn't recommend it less to anyone reading this.
This was very respectful and I am grateful. I absolutely hated that Black Dahlia movie (w/ Aaron Echkhart) when it came out. I expected a mostly factual storyline, with some Hollywood embellishment, but it was literally all nonsense from the start. Only after I watched it, I'm not even sure I finished it, did I find out the film was based off a fictional novel and not the real case. I was so upset about how fake it was.
Simon, OG Blaze Legend here. Congrats on the solid 5.0 ⭐. You (and the writers & Jen) deserve it. I'm proud of you all. ❤️
Love the long episodes, really appreciate the effort, keep up the great content!
I was having a chat with my partner just the other day about how warped some true crime shows can be. The true crime space has become so focused on the mystery or the murderer that they forget that real people died. During that chat, I specifically mentioned that Casual Criminalist isn't like that, and that Simon and his writer have always been much more focused on giving humanity back to the victims than idolizing the murderers. I had missed this video somehow, and I appreciate that I came across it so recently after having that discussion. Thank you Simon, for caring so much about the real people you talk about. And thank you to all of the CC writers for doing the same.
In the 40's, many people were on party lines, which meant the phone rang for everyone on your line. Not answering your phone could be really annoying, or concerning, to your neighbours, depending on the kind of neighbours you had. They could also pick up and answer the call for you, something they really weren't supposed to do, but, neighbours. And yes, they could also eavesdrop on your conversations, so speaking in code was common.
We were still on party lines in the 60s
@Real Aiglon Finally got around to checking that, and you are correct, that is the currently accepted format. But I'm old, and used to doing it the other way, so I make no promises :)
This was a great video, extremely informative about things I never came across for her case before. I love when your channels cover even common topics/cases because it is always really well researched and respectful. Thank you for that! I liked the video so much I feel compulsed to leave a comment, some things I really enjoy with these videos but also to feed the algorithm gods.
Your writers are always great, really thorough and extremely clever. Chris was amazing, and I also really loved that paragraph toward the beginning that Simon commented on. Fantastic wording and really beautiful!
I have to give a lot of praise to Jen too for being my favorite editor on RUclips, as well. I've never paid much attention to editing before these videos, but she really makes me want to watch all of your content and makes it difficult for me to go back to pure audio podcasts! I find I even rewatch the video version of something I've listened to just to watch what she does with the video editing.
Absolutely love all of Simon's work, though, so thank you to him for being a great voice to listen to and a wonderful personality too (he's always interesting with the tidbits he adds). Thanks for another great video to your whole team!
I appreciate your takes on these classic cases. Admittedly I always avoided watching videos on this murder due to the oversaturation of money grabs... happy to have a fresh, respectful view. Please keep sprinkling in the well-known cases with your fantastic writers doing their awesome research.
I truly love being informed and entertained by you. I just became a subscriber.
Wow this has to be one of the best episodes they’ve ever done. Really well done by Chris. Also, huge amount of respect for getting Larry’s permission to use his research even though it wasn’t necessary since you cited him.
Everything you do on RUclips is worth watching. You inform in an articulate, yet humorous manner, and it's very entertaining. Thanks, mate. God Bless you, Simon.
I just yelled to my fiancee, "YAY! NEW CAZH CRIM!"
What was the response?
I just told my husband to shut up cause its Simon time. 😂😂
@@blackmoon9793 She high-fived me. 🤣
Sure
CAZH CREEM!!!! 🙌
Simon your writers for Casual Criminalist are true maestros with words. And I'll chime in with praise along with everyone else regarding the respectful way the victims and their families are treated and the truth and depth to the storytelling.
Fucking amazing job, Chris. Big respect for you as a person and a writer.
May Betty Short rest easy. It makes me sick to think of what she went through in that week, but she's safe now and no-one can ever hurt her again. Thanks for the video!
Hello Chris, hope you’ve been well. Looking forward to the episode today. Thank you Jen for your hard work.
I just want to say that I felt that tangent about strollers to my SOUL. They're SOO expensive. We ended up with a £50 second hand one. New it'd have been over £300 and I told EVERYONE how I got it CHEAP cause I was so proud of my cheap-ass stroller. Kids are expensive.
also good video, of course, as always.
After seeing various videos on the Black Dahlia, I wouldn't have thought I'd learn so much. Great job, Chris!
Thank you to the crew of casual criminalist for giving us facts with a human aspect without any sensationalism.
Whatever you are paying Jen, double it!!!! She never fails to seriously crack me up with her clever editing :)
Oh my God. I'm laughing so hard. The clip when he mentions her is PERFECT!
@@melissaclark8538 Yes! That got me too! 😆
I loved the basement view 🤣
This was a good one. I've heard some of the theories. I really like how you guys handled this.
I've seen a ton of videos on this but I'm here to see Simon's reactions.
Thanks Simon, Chris, and Jen! That was a fabulous new take on this.
I appreciate other people's take on these cases!
I been following Biographics, Geographics for yearsrs. I also love this channel despite the disturbing contents. You are the highlight of youtube Simon. Thanks for all the great work!
Sorry to nagg again, but Simon , casual criminalist 'notebook'? When?
Love your content 🤗
Yep. C’mon FactBoi! I need a place to write down my crimes!!!!
Yes! But i won't show them to anyone!!!
Paraphrasing here: "People say they like how you guys humanize the victims and make the story about *them* and tear into the perpetrators". Tear away, Simon. Tear away. You do it how it should be done. Unless they are protecting a child or other defenseless person, the perpetrator should always be torn into. Awesome, as always!
Simon, always a legend but Chris what a script!!! Research is above and beyond.
The true horror murder of this beautiful young woman has been too long over looked
A beautifully written and read story, told with the respect deserved. Thank you.
Great tangent Simon!!!!! its awful how much they charge for baby things! And!!! I love family history! My father and i took the Ancestry DNA test and found out his mother wasn't just telling stories about being a wild woman ;) great episode!
2nd the baby/stroller/pram scam...invest in a sling (0-18/20mo), backpack (18-3yrs) & shopping trolley....had a free pram & just used it to hold shopping....even the backpacks are scams get 2nd hand!....also LOVE this take on this case, seen close to 10 & STILL heard something new.
Well done, Chris. Beautiful work.
And yes, historiography is important. Always, always find the original source for any historical belief, even if cited by multiple sources.
Can’t go into my weekend without my fix of Casual Criminalist. Thanks Simon, Jenn and The writers 🥰
Nobody ignored phone calls in the 40's because telemarketing did not start until the late 70's. If someone called you on the phone up until the early 80's you picked the damn thing up as it was usually important. If the phone rang after 9pm in most homes whoever called better be announcing someone's death otherwise they would get quite the ass-chewing. Different times.
thank you, Chris (and Simon) for leading with the family, and their additional victimization. i hope every person involved in torturing that family gets what's coming to them...
its hard enough to have a child die.
harder when that child died by violence,
but to have your loss PLAYED with that way is unforgiveable
Chris, take a bow sir. That was really great. The sensitivity you showed the victim was pure class in comparison to so many other people who have covered this case.
I've always wanted to watch something about the black dahlia. But everything was so... Hollywood, I avoided it all. I'm so happy you did it.
You ROCK Simon! I l9ve all your vids on RUclips. I've been subscribed for the past year or two. Keep sending great content our way. Much love from California!
My dad was drafted during WWII and was wounded twice. Afterwards, he wanted a quiet life - no firearms, no flying, big emphasis on auto safety.
This was an extremely informative and eye opening video. I have read and watched a number of items on the case but this presentation introduced so many aspects I hadn't heard before. Put together nicely and well done.
I was a bit hesitant to watch this one due to the nature of the subject matter but this was really quite excellent. Good work Chris/Larry/Jen and of course Blaze Boi.
This is without a doubt the best treatment of this tragic case I have ever seen--and I have seen a lot of them. The description of Ms. Short as a real human being was great. Thank you for giving her back her dignity.
I must congratulate Simon on finding so many Pulitzer-worthy crime writers.
In Hollywood they have a death museum that covers pretty much every big murder case or serial killer from back in the day. Worth the look. It’s where I first learned about the Black Dahlia and many more. Keep up the good work Simon and co.
This has been my favorite case for years - even before I started obsessively studying true crime stuff in the last several years. Thank you for getting to it. I've watched every documentary available (including the movie from a few years ago that took a lot of "artistic" liberties). I've also read 2 of Steve Hodel's books, in the second one he took all of the evidence he had to the current (several years ago) DA for Los Angeles - Hodel's belief is that his father, George, was Elizabeth Short's murderer. The DA told Hodel, after going through all the information/evidence, that if his dad (George Hodel) were still alive that he would definitely file murder charges and take George to trial. Steve Hodel also believes that his father committed the "Lipstick Murders" in Chicago which was a year or so before the Black Dahlia murder - he does make an interesting case but I doubt that daddy dearest did it. He posited that the elder Hodel, who did visit Chicago at the time, had killed and dismembered little Suzanne Degnan (not sure about the spelling). The grizzly details were similar - also, Elizabeth Short's body was found next to "Degnan Blvd." in Los Angeles. It was actually on the address of a different street, but was also right at the end of Degnan Blvd.
ALWAYS BE CLOSING!
Thanks to Chris and Jen! I love these long form vids :). Congrats on the Spotify rating and reviews!
Medford native here. Ive been obsessed with this case since I was a teen. Ellroys account, or the detective having dinner with him, on Feast of Death (an actual nonfictional theory also on you tube) was so compelling. It seems most plausible. Highly suggest watching. Its CRAZY