Music Chat: How to Dislike Great Music
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- Опубликовано: 24 май 2024
- We don't usually think about music we dislike, but I think it's worth considering healthy ways to react to the idea that there will always be masterpieces whose much lauded greatness simply eludes us--and that's perfectly fine.
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When people have violent emotions about music, it’s rarely about the music.
I always find the constant barrage of hate comments on your videos so bizarre and amusing. As you say it’s one thing to be passionate, and another to try and start online arguments with random people over matters that are ultimately trivial.
I'm sure that some of it is a defensive reaction to having a foundational element of one's ego challenged. In other words, someone stumbles across (say) Furtwangler and then gets heavily invested in every tiny bit of Furtwangler they can get their hands on. This obsession gives meaning, structure and validity to their own existence. Then alo g comes someone with a white beard trashing the Nazi Ninth ...and that is then taken as an attack on them personally, because it challenges their idol, and thus themselves.
I know there was a Time when I felt the need to correct anyone that didn't think Britten was the greatest composer that ever lived! These days, I'd be content to have him as my own, private source of joy. It takes time to gain a mature understanding of one's passions.
Put another way: Music triggers an emotional response so often, and people dislike being told (or apparently being told) that _their_ emotional response to something isn't shared by everyone, because that somehow undermines the validity of their own response.
Great talk, Dave. I love hearing your opinions even if I don't always agree with them (I enjoy Lalo's Symphonie espagnole, for example, but I don't care that you don't yet I enjoy hearing why you don't). You've enhanced my listening enjoyment very much by directing me to composers I've never listened to, through your recurring references to them. I'm working through the BIS Allan Pettersson box right now because of your fabulous concert program series on him, and like it much more than I thought I would.
Brave soul! Thanks for the vote of confidence!
I've watched several hundred of your vids over the last couple of years - and this was certainly one of the best !
Mark - London, UK
Imagine, being able to love something without adopting an attitude! Wonderfully articulated presentation, Dave. Thank you. Wesley
Thank you Dave for the absolutely delightful talk! This filled my heart with so much love and warmth. As a young graduate student in history I’ve been much preoccupied by the problematique of honesty, sincerity and authenticity. And as a Glenn Gould fan I’ve been both puzzled and fascinated by Gould’s very peculiar dislike of Mozart, the pomposity of middle-period Beethoven, the early Romantics… and I’m not so proud to admit that I have my own Mozart and Mahler 2 problem and it’s not easy to determine the cause - be it affirming self-worth through following Gould or something much more. I’ve been following your channel for a year and you’ve taught me so much about honesty and appreciating “things as they are.” You’re a gem!❤
Hear, hear!
A fascinating talk. The problem starts, when one confuses his own taste with the ability of the artist. It's a big difference between "I like it" and "this is great music".
Two situations add a bit of nuance to your insights. Sometimes you don’t like something at the first hearing or two and then later - could be weeks or years- you listen to it again and wow you get it, like love it. That’s happened to me many times. On the other hand there can be works you love but after a while, you’ve fallen out of love. Perhaps because there wasn’t that much in them after all or because your accumulated listening has changed your life or understanding of music and/or your tastes. So, in addition to a sense of humour, a bit of humility about your own liking/taste can be a key to greater enjoyment and appreciation. That’s the same with food or art, isn’t it?
You risk getting stoned for saying this nowadays, if for anything, but here goes nothing: I've never particularly liked Mahler. I think his works occasionally have inventive, even brilliant details. For example, the unusual tuning of the solo violin in the second movement of the 4th Symphony creates a fascinating, alienating effect, and there are many similar examples to be found. As a great conductor, he knew how to draw fascinating effects from an orchestra. But as a whole, his symphonies are sentimental and bombastic fluff. There, I said it. I do like some of his songs, but I would never voluntarily listen to an entire Mahler symphony.
You won't get stoned, but you do lose points for blaming the music rather than your failure to understand it. I know it's not Bach's fault that I dislike some of his music. I'm just not sympathetic to what I hear him trying to express with it. That's my bad, and I can live with it. So you don't have to like Mahler, but you also don't have to mischaracterize him because you don't.
Always an enjoyment to listen to Dave expound about MUSIC.
Always pleasant, Always informative - I love this channel
I like your analysis of composers and performances and recordings, whether it is to show what you like or don't like about them. It's like sitting down with a glass of wine with someone knowledgeable and parsing music. Sometimes I have an actual glass of wine when I watch your videos. I have had my mind changed about composers and compositions when introduced to especially good performances.
Hello from Barcelona
There was a time when I couldn't live without Bach's music. I became obsessed with it and started to build a vast collection of CDs. Also, I couldn't miss any performance of the St. Matthew Passion or the Mass in B minor at the beautiful Palau de la Música Catalana in Barcelona.
I will always treasure my Bach collection, and it will surely increase as time goes by. But, finally, I realized there's much more outside the Bach box.
The videos you allude to in this program were the first ones I saw when I discovered your channel, and I must say I understood you very well, I laughed a lot and enjoyed them very much.
I've been an addict to your videos since then. Thank to them I've got all the Ormandy's and Szell's collections, among many other recommendations; great discoverings I keep listening day by day.
Thank you very much.
You're very welcome. BTW, I've been to the Palau de la Música Catalana and it its indeed a gorgeous building.
I remember being taken aback by your "Lieder Problem" video, but it was rather thought-provoking. It reminded me of an Anna Russell album called A Guide for Concert Audiences (never transferred to CD to my knowledge,) with a section devoted to lieder and other classical songs. She read, in her inimitable way, a musicologist's definition of lieder : "... they bear a LOFTINESS of aim and an EARNESTNESS of purpose that renders them PREGNANT with meaning. (beat) End quote." (Audience laughter.)
Re Anna Russell, I adore Wagner but I think her skewering of the Ring and its plot is absolutely hilarious. And insightfully so.
Dave, you nailed it again. I love your attitude about music, and also your musical taste. Nowadays, you are my musical guru. Greetings from Mexico-Tenochtitlan, capital city of the aztecs.
I recall a comment from Wiliam Flanagan, composer/critic, in the old Stereo Review: "I recognize that Wagner was a genius. I just wish he hadn't happened to music". He also wrote that he could die happy if only he could write something as exquisite as the last section of Ravel's "Ma mere L'oye". Back in my radio days, I remember getting a note from a listener who was also a personal friend, telling me he wished we wouldn't bother playing the symphonies of Niels Gade, which (to him) were just empty, watered-down Mendelssohn and not worth our (or his) time. I had learned by then not to take comments like this personally. When you're presenting a nearly endless variety of stuff on the radio, you can't please everybody, every minute.
This is indeed cathartic. Here and there I’ve heard you express this sentiment and it was definitely worth elaborating upon. I thought I knew something about classical music before finding your channel; happily I was wrong and found there was so much more than I could have ever guessed. Through you, I have so many new favorites; Atterberg being the most recent of them, btw. I have also listened to things I found not to like so much. Oh well, still worth it to explore. Though I’m not sure you would share my taste on this, I had your personality in mind when confessing to some of my orchestra mates that the Brahms symphonies kind of bore me. I felt like a heretic as a small-time horn player given how important they are to the repertoire. Funnily enough, all they really said in response was that our next season opens with Brahms first. Anyway, though some of my previous comments may have been stupid, you are one of my few favorite treasures on this platform.
Edit: I do recognize the skillful construction of the Brahms symphonies even if they don’t excite me.
Great chat! very good intellectual points. 🎼🎶🎶
Quite brilliant! The trouble is so many of us define ourselves by our tastes.: it can almost structure our entire life. I was aware that my love of late Beethoven quartets as a teenager gave me some cachet, even though I was spotty, redhaired, plump and wore glasses. No one could touch me, because I felt I was a notch above them, with my liking for this music. And that went on, until I realised, actually I loved Led Zeppelin as well. Didn't like most Mozart or Haydn (coming round to bits of them now) did like Bach....Its so variable. I wanted music with a powerful emotional impact, and so the great symphonists (Sibelius, Mahler and Bruckner, Tchaikovsky) set the pattern, and the classical symphonists seemed rather boring, anodyne. One of the great benefits of getting older is not needing that external framework for my character. I can like whatever I want, without worrying about what others think. Love being introduced to more fascinating stuff through your various talks, Dave. Keep up the good work!
Music is a good example of a field, where a lot of people don't realise how little they know.
So true. A most delightful commentary. Thank you!
The last thing we should do is to be mean to someone who gives us his time and expertise. We should be very thankful that there is so fantastic a channel for us classic lovers. It has become a daily pleasure for me. Thank you, Dave! Harry
"You are who you are and what you are is ok, period." Dave Hurwitz
"If I had a magic wand and could make one thing disappear from the world, it would be overconfidence." Daniel Kahneman
"I don't believe in anything you have to believe in." Fran Lebowitz
Robert Sapolsky makes a strong argument for determinism in his new book, which suggests that we have very little or no free will. We like what we like and our preferences are not of our own choosing. We didn't choose our parents, our genes, or our environment as a child; our preferences in music, people, or food are the result of factors out of our control. As Dave has implied, many of us need to get over ourselves and drop the hypocrisy.
The more I learn from great thinkers in neuroscience, cognitive biases, and critical thinking in general, the more I know what I don't know. This humility opens my mind to different ways of enjoying life and it has greatly expanded my appreciation of all music.
Your dead on right about this subject which carries into every area of life . I can sit down with a cup of coffee and just enjoy the music because it brings satisfaction and enjoyment into my life and that's the bottom line. Well put.
I've been following your channel since its early days, Dave, and you've impressed upon me from early on that it's totally okay to not "get" certain composers, certain works, or even parts of a certain work. I used to beat myself up for not "getting" certain composers and works which were deemed "great" and held in high esteem by critics and commentators. One's degree of appreciation of a certain work could simply be a function of time, mood, life circumstances, etc.
Very interesting video! I agree completely, not every masterpiece can or must be enjoyed by everyone and many people forget the difference between what is objectively good and what someone likes. At least in my experience though the opposite problem is more widely spread - I have been called snobbish so many times just because I listen to classical music and of course if I say that something is objectively better then something the other person happens to like, they often get offended and take it as a personal insult. Many people these days who don't know much about music, musicology and theory, especially popular music enjoyers, who rarely listen to music and when they do they listen to the same old performance of the same old song as background music, just for the "mood", and not for the music itself (and there is nothing wrong with that, if they enjoy it - great!) and rarely explore something new, tell me that everything in music is completely subjective and I can't say that one piece is better then another and if I do that is offensive to the people that like it. I like pieces, that are not great (Khachaturian's symphonies for example) and dislike some masterpieces (I happen to really dislike Baroque and Renaissance music for example), but this doesn't make Khachaturian's symphonies "better" then Haendel's Messiah and I would argue that the latter is better, despite me not liking it as much. But most people, at least where I live, totally disagree that for example Beethoven's 7th symphony is objectively better then the last chalga song that came out (chalga generally is pornographic gypsy music that comes with 18+ clips, that combines Serbian and Bulgarian folklore with orientalism and is very bad musically and for society, even a lot of bulgarians agree on that, but unfortunately it became very popular with most young people in the last couple of decades). And what is even weirder is that this is generally a music only problem - most people agree that for example da Vinci's Mona Lisa or Gaudi's Sagrada Família are masterpieces, whether they like it or not (or, an even simpler example - it doesn't matter if I like eating fish or not, Gordan Ramsey's fish dishes would be a hundred times better then my favorite meals, that I like to make with my primitive cooking skills and everybody will agree on that), but when it comes to music, very few will say the same thing, despite the critical consensus. So my question to you is, has that ever happened in your life, and if yes, what do you say in these situations, without looking too snobbish, how do you make the differentiation between what is a matter of personal taste and what is objectively good to people, that deny, that some music is better then other and say that better is the same as what they like? And why is music not taken as seriously as other arts in the general public's eyes? Sorry for the long text, but that is something, that really bothers me and happens all the time in my experience so I really wanted to lay down my thoughts on the topic in a cohesive way.
Fabulous talk, Dave, as always. Having a good sense of humor is is a great tool to enjoying great music. The late Prof. Peter Schickele certainly demonstrated this. Btw - I hope you may find it interesting to do a talk about him and PDQ Bach someday - I think many of us would find it interesting!
@Dave, how about the reference recordings of PDQ Bach or a carefully considered disquisition as to why there aren't any?
What surprised me about this talk was how I related to it. When I was first becoming who I am, by chance, I met someone on AMTRAK from South Carolina who was studying at Columbia. He was (and still is, I think) quite a respected organist. Music was among our first conversations: sharing what we liked. His recommendation was Elgar's, "The Dream of Gerontius." Of course, I had to find it and did at The Record Hunter in Manhattan. I hated it. Even now, over 50 years later, I find it difficult at best. Still, as you stated, Dave, one must discover what one does not like to know what one does enjoy. I think this is one reason I still do not relate well to Elgar. I buy his music hoping that one day I will become comfortable with 'TDOG." Don't bet on it.
One of those videos that is both thought provoking and entertaining. Where can I join the Faschist party?
"De gustibus non est disputandum" so true in Latin and today. Thanks for the video. As always, I appreciate the careful way you lay out the criteria for your heartfelt statements. In his book The Grand Tradition, Steane followed a similarly careful approach to singers. I would add that the process by which something becomes a classic is the same as that for reference recordings: an opinion coalesces. But just as you so often observe that we don't have to like the reference recordings, I am not surprised to hear you say that we don't need to love every classic.
Spot on talk.
I was such a snob about my appreciation of music until a few years ago. I siloed music into genre then ranked them as most important (according to what?)
Then i came across a soprano who sang everything and anything. And abandoned my creed and just enjoyed music as my heart responded. Yes, it's just music, entertainment as you said (your own feelings about what a piece of music does for you)
This is a terrific and timely post; Dave, your vlog is the blog that never was. (Nobody reads?) I was fortunate to become a classical music person not only before social media, but in the LP era. So much of this has to do with the ghettoization of classical music in general in the decades since, and probably a symptom of the partisanism (cf. partisanship) of our era in general. (Apparently, you are not a real person unless you are a partisan.) But as you point out, a lot of it comes down to "emotion," which God knows we can't even agree on in 2024. Towards the end, you say that the composers (of record?) wrote great music--and that's the whole point. I love the creative flowering of contemporary concert music, but the fact is that for around two centuries, sitting down and dotting staff paper with musical ideas was an actual profession, and there were people who could work ideas, incredible or banal, into masterworks. (Including lieder, but hat's just me, and I'm a late bloomer.)
Faschists!😂 I'm with you on Bach. Also have difficulty with Berlioz and Mahler, but I TRY. For instance, going to a Mahler 5 concert soon for another go!
That is a good outlook and maintaining equilibrium helps in the long run.
Knowing I don't care for string quartets is much like I don't usually care for IPAs. Occasionally, will still give one a try. Occasionally I am pleasantly surprised.
Recognizing that maybe one day, I will stumble one that hits me the right way and I will love it is part of growing.
Of all the arts I think music tends to be the most subjective and personal, and people who come to love music tend to entangle a large amount of their identity into both the music they love and hate, and any disagreement about that can't be taken as mere disagreements of personal taste, but as an attack on the person that loves or hates it. That can be especially hurtful when it comes from someone who others perceive as an authority on classical music, and you are undoubtedly perceived by many to be an authority if just on how much of it you've heard.
Of course, none of this is your fault, Dave, but it is a fascinating aspect of human psychology. I went through a similar phase myself in my teens and early 20s, but by my mid-20s I'd more or less gotten past that, if only because I came to love and embrace such a wide variety of music (and other works from other artistic mediums) that I simply couldn't stretch my ego that thin to be entangled in all of them. So someone dislikes one of my favorite composers; oh, well, who care? I bet we agree on something! At the end of the day it's not as if disagreements about art are anywhere near as serious as our philosophical/moral/political/religious disagreements, things that can affect our daily life.
Dear David Hurwitz, I've been watching your videos for quite a long time and finally I decided to become an inside subscriber. I enjoy so much your comments and reviews. Although I disagree with you sometimes (specially regarding Celibidache, but I think he was not a conductor for the recording world), many times I feel absolutely at home with your remarks. For instance, I think no critic has ever spoken so well about the virtues of Leonard Bernstein, whom I worship. And your views about the clichés of his supposed exaggerated style have helped me a lot to shape my own ideas and intuitions. I also share your dislikes of people like Thielemann. But most important, I'm learning so much about recordings I didn't know. Lately, I've been listening to your ideal cycles of Dvorak, a composer I love, and they are absolutely fabulous. Oh that 7th by Claus Peter Flor!!! It's gorgeous. So here it is my gratitude and acknowledgment for all the pleasure, wit, wisdom and fun you give us every day. Kind regards, Andreu Jaume from Barcelona, Spain.
Thank you!
Important and a timely video. One should not take oneself too seriously. Life will be better and more fun!
Yet another great and entertaining video, Dave. Just curious, though, in relation to your video on Composer We Could Do Without: did anyone argue in support of Wuorinen... 😄?
No, actually.
There have been so many composers and pieces that I only came to like after years of not particularly liking them. I have often come to love composers that at one time I didn't care for at all. But I kept listening from time to time to see if my views changed and I could suddenly hear what I was missing. And so often, almost always, I do change my mind. So I have concluded that the worst thing one can do is come to a decision that you don't like a composer or to define your "tastes" and so to put yourself in a box. This tends to shut one off from exploring these things and developing an appreciation later. People tend to become what they define themselves as. They create a box and then they make themselves fit into it. In my opinion it's unnecessarily limiting.
I also never get much into any bach. I do love discovering great music and great recordings that show how wonderful a piece is. E.g.! Dawn upshaw doing copeland songs. Terfel doing when i was 2 and 20 by butterworth. Or when i listen to a recording and don't like it, then love it after digesting the music or its performance. That is really fun. And realizing how genius those performers are or those composers.
Hey David - I've been going through grief the past month and I kind of have been relying on you a bit for the music to express the feelings- so yI have had no inclination to listen to rhe Mozart requiem nor the Brahms Deutsch Trquiem - instead the Gorecki 3rd and Faure requiem have been my mainstays. I lthunk that the music we need reflects our feelings about the person we lost- it can't really be prescriptive at all.
I'm sorry for your loss, and you're right of course.
Very perceptive and smart video chat this is. I am addicted to your channel because I look for recordings to discover. I always end up being enlightened. Whether I agree with you or not, is irrelevant. I can tell you I agree 99.9% of the time! Truly the best thing about you is the open mindedness and the broadness of your scope. You actually help me open my mind. People who comment here, to disagree or bash, you don't understand the purpose of this huge public service you are doing. Indeed they are insecure, snobbish, close minded, and inflexible. So, please....keep deleting.
Simply speaking, I enjoy listening and finding new things in what is essentially an unlimited supply of great music. If I find something I don’t like, I don’t worry about it. I just go to something else. I don’t cast judgements on what others may like.
I will never forget the rash of comments that met your 30+ second overview of Boulez's works--tossing a clump of them to the side; yes , a sense of humor is very important.
Great presentation, Dave. It seems to me that you rationally and trenchantly hit a whole bunch of nails firmly on the head.
What a validating talk. I feel like a fraud sometimes because I don’t care for The Rite of Spring. Oftentimes, I feel like there is a “correct answer” when someone asks what your favorite composer is (i.e. Beethoven, Bach, Mozart). It’s so exhausting to encounter feigned intellectualism.
Thank goodness I've got broadband again and can watch wonderful videos like this. I hope those people who have posted all that bile (without actually thinking about what you've said) don't put you off keeping the channel going...
Of course not. I don't take them seriously.
I always take disliking music as sort of a challenge: What can I find in a work to recognize its value somehow? At the same time, well, life is short. I have to prioritize some things over others. Sometimes the path of least resistance is best - just find what you like and see where it leads you. I will say, some of my favorite composers, like Brahms, became so because I took up the challenge of trying to find the beauty. There's beauty in being able to find beauty, it's a virtuous cycle.
As a post-beginner I have had a related challenge these past two years; namely, to like what you (DH) dislike, the shining example being the 'relentlessness' of JS Bach... That said, one thing that has helped me to express dislike for a great composer is to be specific as to what it is I don't like. Example::Wagner's endless (endlessly repetitive) reciting of narrative, invariably accompanied by the very recitative-sounding accompaniment he claimed to have rejected (after Gluck and Berlioz). Also helpful is to reserve negative judgment until one is ready to listen with open ears. This is happily happening for me right now in regards to CPE whom I didn't get at first but am now enjoying getting to know via the Haenssler set.
As one person commented, classical music is subjective, sometimes very subjective. I started playing the piano when I was seven, back in the early 60s, and I quickly became to love classical music. It quickly grew from piano music to orchestral, but I didn't "get" chamber music. It wasn't until my doctoral studies in my mid 30s that I started to appreciate and love it. I also have to say that I am an eclectic when it comes to what i like, and was one of those weird persons that loved Mahler since high school, as well as Bruckner, but I am not a fanatic about wanting to know about every edition. Some of his changes were for the better. I also love Shostakovitch, but really can't get into Prokofiev much, but that is just me. Through listening to your videos, I now love Haydn symphonies. On the other hand, Mendelssohn I have a hard time with, except his chamber music. I also love the English composers from Stanford and Parry to RVW ( I own a lot of his works). I also have a large number of Russian Orthodox choral CDs. When I hear a lot of Baroque instrumental on the radio, I think of a sewing machine because of the continual fast rhythms (am I the only one who has thought that 🤔). We all have our favorites, some have hundreds, some not so many. Let's not condemn others who don't share our taste.
So refreshing. The next step, after attaching the ego to certain music and other art as a marker of intellectual and spiritual superiority is to say that these arts make people better human beings; kinder, capable of more astute judgment, more likely to create harmonious and just communities and even more ethical. This surprisingly widespread concept appears resilient to the often appalling evidence of history. We are so privileged by the scope of entertainment available (the entire body of movies alone is only about 100 years old), that we are bound to create our own idiosyncratic, even anarchic culture. It's probably safer to keep it to ourselves if we are not well-informed enough to be critics and to be usefully specific about characteristics. Do I care who doesn't like Berlioz if I love his music? Do I care if anyone else knows that I love it? It is really engaging (and unusual) that you discuss these matters.
Hindemith was a great believer in the moral virtues of (the right kind of) music.
@@DavesClassicalGuide What an interesting pick, a good example to make the case. Nobody can deny the depth of impact of any music on any person's sensibilities and how it may influenced them. Clearly, not invariably toward moral rectitude. I said "surprisingly widespread concept," I should have said "delusion."
Just look at how poorly people treat others when someone disagrees with them on a political ideal(s), and you can see how we end up where we are with music discussions turning so volatile. People just don’t know how to communicate and disagree respectfully anymore, about anything.
Thank you so much for this!
There is enough data in this channel’s responses (and deleted ones) to write a PhD (or two). I officially declare that a challenge!
We're social animals and therefor we care about what others think of us. Freedom is enjoying music because we love it, not because other tell us to love it. It is sometimes difficult, but I wish everyone that freedom.
I have some ideas for videos, or video series:
1. If you like X you should try Y. (X could be anything: a composer, a conductor, a musical work, an orchestra, an ensemble, an instrumental player, a singer, a label, a recording engineer, etc.)
2. Classical music for people who love genre X.
3. Music of genre X for people who love classical music.
Would you consider making videos of any of these kinds?
Have you even looked at the 250 playlists and 3500+ videos already on offer?
@@DavesClassicalGuideI did find a playlist called "if you like this, you'll love these," so I apologize for that suggestion. However, I didn't see anything corresponding to the other two suggestions (classical music for people who love genre X, or music of genre X for people who love classical music). Am I missing something?
Yes, there are hundreds of videos on those topics. There are playlists grouped by genres, and discussions of genres within various subtopics (Essential LIits for Beginners, or Lists with Twists, for example), plus playlists dedicated to Keyboard Music, Vocal Music, Wind Ensembles, Chamber Music, etc, etc. You can find them all on my channel home page.
@@DavesClassicalGuideSorry, my suggestion was unclear. I meant non-classical genres. For example, classical music for jazz lovers, or jazz for classical lovers. Classical music for rock lovers, or rock for classical lovers, etc. (I completely understand if you don't want to venture outside of classical music. But I expect this kind of crossover video would have broad appeal)
The essential characteristic of this channel is that it is not for hypocrites, those who are capable of denying their own tastes for the sake of conforming to common opinion. The other feature is that it's all about deep understanding of music, learning to cultivate one's own judgment. As a result, Dave Hurwitz offers, in my opinion, one of the very few areas of true “musical education” on the Internet. And I use this term in the deepest sense of what an education represents: learning about repertoires, a guide to interpretations, elements available for each individual to construct his or her own judgment. This is a far cry from one of the enduring paradigms of the “classical music world”, which is snobbery. I'm not a veteran of this channel, but since I discovered it some two years ago, I've become a real afficionado. Why do you ask? Well, precisely for the reasons I've just mentioned, and because I consider this space to be invaluable for anyone who wants to either start learning (all the tools are available here, from a critic of fundamental requirement) and for connoisseurs, everything is available to either delve deeper into a question, or discuss it.
The snobbery with which you are regularly confronted, dear Dave, is only the reflection, in the world of music, of an even wider sociological phenomenon, which concerns attitudes to culture in general. The role of facilitators, transmitters, educators and critics such as yourself is to demystify the complacent attitudes that form the screen for a false relationship with culture. So I'm grateful to you for always putting forward the idea of pleasure, which should guide everyone along the paths of art. Otherwise, once again, we end up in the territory of snobbery.
The fact that some people didn't understand your video on your “Bach Problem” only illustrates this problem of snobbery in a very profound way. For, according to the criteria accepted by the snobbish mass, Bach is a kind of idol to be bowed down to. But your preoccupation is not with cults, as you keep repeating. And everyone should take inspiration from this or think about it. Acknowledging Bach's greatness and genius, while at the same time saying that you have a problem with some of his compositions, is not disrespect or anything of the sort: it's honesty, but above all an honesty that is well-founded. It's about taste, and the pedagogy of a singular taste.
Once again, and on these grounds, I repeat: this channel is not designed for those seeking to cultivate an outdated image of so-called classical music. It is designed for those who wish to enter into an understanding of this music, and who aim to forge their own judgement.
I happily abstain from holding people to account for their taste. I nevertheless do feel entitled to demand reciprocal courtesy. When others dislike what I like, I tell them that they may confidently delegate the task to me.
Brings to mind the thoughts of Snoopy: "A friend is someone who can't stand the same kind of music you can't stand." A funny remark, but I'd hate to cut people out of my life on that basis alone!
Why would anyone "want" to dislike great music? Lmao 🤣
Thank you for giving me permission to scoff!
Spot on, Dave.
Thank you! I have been ridiculed through my performing life for disliking the first movement of Beethoven's 9th and all of his late chamber music. I can't help it! By the same token, I like come compositions that others dislike.
I don't think that disliking something means that I hate it.
I had a discussion with someone on X on a completely different topic and stated that I disliked something. The other party equated "dislike" with "hate" because a dictionary had the two as synonyms. I was accused of being a hater. I assume that this was their agenda, as I am sure that most reasonable people would NOT equate the two words.
On Bach again: I sometimes hear 'clever, knowlegable' people who never listen to classical music or don't like it say that they do, however, like Bach, but after testing them you find they know very little Bach at all. They are usually literary people, strangely enough.
I feel the same way about Bach, respect the music but is not one of my favorites, in my collection only the keyboard concertos (Hewitt, like it a lot) and St. Matthew's Passion (Harnoncourt, was a gift) which I find very very boring. On the other hand I love Mozart's Requiem, specially Karajan's 😅, but like we say in Spanish: entre gustos, no hay disgustos.
Thanks for this one, Dave. Personally I had a similar (you must hate) reaction when I posed the theory that Mozart's Requiem can't work because he wasn't the composer that had thought about the fact that life is finite. I was shocked, shocked to hear that I hated Mozart's music. Just not fond of turning any human being (with faults et al.) into a little god-like statue on the mantelpiece
Exactly! Punctum, satis.
There’s plenty of music I don’t like or am indifferent to. Maybe when I was 18 I would have invented justifying theories for why my opinion was obviously right, and the people who liked what I didn’t were fools. But now I happily see my own listening limits as personal blind spots. And, as Dave admits with his own Bach reticence, 1) one’s feelings often moderate over time, and 2) a great performance can soften one’s resistance, at least a bit.
Dave, I couldn’t stop laughing when you likened Beethoven’s Grosse Fuge to “ten cattle dying”….that’s not to discount the piece entirely, but it’s something Beethoven had to get off his chest; we have to at least respect that. What did it mean for HIM; how can we- if not entirely enjoy it-at least appreciate the inspiration….Is it jesting with art?
Anyway, I THINK that I enjoy, for instance, Faure’s late Piano Quintet, but it seems to me, at least for now, that it’s quite literally for a rainy day…that is, there’s music that you can listen to during foul weather when your your mood is somewhat splenetic (in a Baudelaire’s sense?) and come to accept it as a part of life… Maybe you’ll never truly enjoy it, but if your human, you will cognitively appreciate it…. Catharsis need not necessarily ensue
We like what we like, but I encourage everyone in the classical music community to continue to explore music that rubs you the wrong way. Maybe previously you heard a duff performance. Maybe your taste/insights have changed without your realizing. Please never do something like wall yourself off from classical music composed since 1950. There really is a daisy chain of great classical music compositions that started in the distant past and is still being added to in 2024.
We should perhaps never be too sure of what we like or dislike. Therefore, not condemn or disrespect other's tastes. When I started out, I didnt care for Brahms. Within a decade he became one of my favorite composers. Initially, I enjoyed Lalo's Symphonie Espagnole which I now find tiresome.
I've always vastly preferred Handel to Bach. My Bach problem was similar to Dave's. But that didn't stop me from listening to all of the Brandenburgs yesterday, with the 1st Suite thrown in (Pinnock/Arkiv) at a single sitting and enjoying every second of it.
Currently, I admire and enjoy one single work of Roy Harris, the 3rd symphony, but I think the rest is predictable trash. But maybe I'll be persuaded otherwise some day.
I like a lot of Bach but much of it has no effect on me at all. The same with Mozart: most of his sonatas leave me cold, but he is still my favourite composer. It took me a long time to love and 'understand' Mahler.
We're going to have differences on interpretations of works. Some conductors and soloists just don't get something by a certain composer. Some of us see works as "insipid" or "impossible". Some composers composed so much that they diluted their talent (I'm thinking of Telemann, whose oeuvre is spotty).
Learning to like Bartok and Bruckner was not swift.
Have you heard everything by Telemann in order to make that generalization?
@@DavesClassicalGuide Has anyone heard everything that Telemann ever wrote? He wrote some memorable music, but much of it isn't. I can't imagine anyone being a Telemann scholar.
I have a pair of boxing gloves in the car for whenever I risk telling the truth about how I feel about... Brahms and The Beatles. People say the same thing about both of them, "that music changed everything", "it was a revolution", "it influenced everything". Cool, granted. I just find their music so unrelatable most of the time. I like passion, sangue, inspiration, a little rust.
They're great, I recognize their influence. Just deal with it if I yawn from time to time when their grandiosity is being displayed.
I was one of your hecklers for your remark that Liszt was trash. My bad. I just hadn't learned to understand you yet.
Well said sir! Apparently music does not have charms to soothe the savage idiot. Or, in words attributed to John Cleese, “Some people OUGHT to be offended.”
I could never understand why Alfred Brendel, who could never be called tone-deaf, hated Rachmaninov's music, but we all have our strange biases.
It’s interesting. I wonder if it isn’t necessary to develop “I like/ I don’t like” biases just to filter our way through the vastness of music and find ourselves. I think maybe this is where some of the puzzling antipathies come from.
@@murraylow4523 Yes, most likely!
@@ahartify Well you don’t know about other people, but Brendel decided he liked Liszt, for example. Which is maybe a bit odd but he decided that!
I know what you mean. I'm not a big Haydn guy. I barely listen to him at all. I'd rather have Mozart. I don't tell people this because they react exactly as you describe.
i thought that Ten Secrets video was hilarious. The people who reacted on both sides of the Liszt issue remind me of the way many people follow politicians like religious figures. They erroneously read something into what they say and use it to confirm their own existing biases, and as an excuse to be ugly, terrible people.
Danke!
Thank you!
My wife absolute despises Barber's Adagio for Strings. She thinks it is overwrought, unsubtle and even screechy. I have told her several times that I completely disagree with her, but she gets defensive because I am a professional musician and she thinks (I guess) that I will think less of her for having this opinion. I have to admit that I don't particularly understand the opinion, but I do know that it is true that some pieces, even masterpieces, are simply not appealing to particular people because people simply have different tastes.
Bravo!, David!
Sometimes you hear something that is plainly, obviously good, and you hate it anyway. My big classical example is Tchaikovsky. Everyone and their mother knows and loves Tchaikovsky, he's obviously a master of melody and orchestration, and yet other than the last couple symphonies I can't stand him.
I've wracked my brain for years as to why. It's not it's-popular-so-it-sucks contrarianism, I love Beethoven. It's not too focused on singing melody, I love Schubert. It's not too emotionally charged, I love Mahler, Berlioz, Schoenberg. There's just something about Tchaikovsky, ESPECIALLY that awful love music from Romeo and Juliet, that makes me wretch, even though it's obviously great.
It makes you wretch? Really?
@@DavesClassicalGuide That particular comment really only applies to the Romeo and Juliet love music, but yes, there is something unbearably cheesy about most of the Tchaikovsky I've heard that I can't pin down. The other really bad offender being The Nutcracker, though that one might just be my distaste for Christmas standards talking.
I like his symphonies okay, the ones I've heard anyway, and I actually really enjoy the 5th. Its more the tone poemy things like Romeo and the ballet music that turns me off. There's a good chance I'd like more of his stuff if I heard it, it wouldn't be the first time a composer took a long time to grow on me.
@@mikesimpson3207Just my two cents, but maybe consider his Francesca da Rimini. Something fiery and hellish versus love music that others have attached to different things.
...so it's ok to dislike Brrrrr-uckner??? and Elgar???
Sure
😂
I was taken in by your trashing of Liszt, I have to admit!
Actually, the Symphonie Fantastique is not all that fantastique.
There. I’ve said it.
Come at me.
🤣🤣
Most of Bach bores me to death.
Yep, sometimes just back(ground)room music. That's why it's called Tafelmuzik
Haha. Some people on the internet make me lose hope in the future of our species. You, my friend, are not one of them. Far from it. You are logical, fair, objective and unpretentious. And funny as hell. I thought it charming how open and honest you were about your opinions on Bach and lieder. I know you didn’t make this video to rally people on your side or seek approval, but I am a hundred percent behind you and since hearing your opinions on a variety of matters including your stance on minority composers and artists, I’ve decided I will follow you wherever you go, sir. 🫡
BTW I hope you don’t mind me calling you friend. 😊 I always like when you refer to us as such.
I'm touched to be called a friend. It's an honor, really.