5 Conductors Who Were Their Own Worst Enemies
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- Опубликовано: 9 окт 2023
- You really do have to wonder what these five conductors had in mind in recording the same stuff over and over, often not as well as the first time. Did they really think people were just lining up to buy their latest version? Did they have no self-awareness or ability to judge their own work? Did they care at all?
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Ormandy and Karajan lived through the era of fast progressing technology and degrading vinyl records. Whatever they did in the 40s was technically superseded in the 50s and again in the 60s. And even when it wasn't, the buying public was willing to believe that a recent recording would always sound better than an older one. So of course, Karajan had to re-do everything one last time in digital. He was the big Number One at DG and the CD was coming. He had cash-cow duty to fulfil.
Any orchestra/conductor today would die for the recording contracts that Ormandy and his Philadelphians had.
I recall Solti guest conducting the NY Philharmonic not long after Masur had taken over as Music Director from Zubin Mehta. Bernard Holland (I think) wrote, in the NY Times, something like "After what we endured in the Mehta years, Kurt Masur arrived and the orchestra began to play with something like the refinement of the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. Now Georg Solti comes to town and turns it into an assault weapon."
That's a good description of the SOLTI SOUND. In Chicago I stayed home when he was in town. Luckily that wasn't often. And there were great guest conductors.
"...muscular insensitivity." That's very good.
I should have mentioned another overlapping consideration: recording quality. The best recordings by a lot of artists are late-analogue, the worst are early digital; and some of their best performances are mediocre or worse in sound quality.
Thanks for another interesting episode. I’d like to hear your opinion on some conductors and soloists “to watch” - those getting started in their careers that we may not have heard of. Thank you!
Another great video, Dave, and thanks as always! Question for you: What is your opinion of Fritz Reiner? I would be very interested in hearing your detailed examinations of him. Looking forward to more, of course!
Great La mer
Thank you for another provocative and stimulating talk. May I suggest a talk on the repertoire conductors ought to have recorded. In a talk about Abbado's Rossini, you suggested that he could have recorded more of Rossini's work, including the less well-known operas. What should other conductors have recorded to play to their strengths?
Celi should've recorded Wagner's Ring. Wotan would've taken about 3 hours putting Brunnhilde to a fiery sleep.
@@pastrychef1985Fiery or low and slow like ribs.
It's so nice to see you here, @@pastrychef1985 (I had to make sure that this is indeed THE pastrychef I was thinking of by going into your channel). When I was a student, I listened to so many lesser-known symphonies through your channel... in a time when these symphonies weren't very present on youtube. Just wanted to thank you after all these years.
@@young-jinhur1330 Thank you! I always wanted to make lesser known pieces and recordings available to everyone and it's nice to hear you enjoyed it. I might have to see if I have any other recordings about that might need to be uploaded!
I recall an lp demo featuring Ormandy's return to RCA during the stereo Era. To show how "modern" recording technology was miles ahead of recordings Ormandy made with RCA during the 78 rpm Era, they foolishly did a comparison of both. I was amazed to find out that the 78 sound was basically superior!
I recall the comparison a bit differently. It was not that the 78 was superior, but rather that the improvement was small. This was part of an recording experiment that RCA was trying using electronic reverberation to deal with the short decay times in the Academy of Music. The attempt did not work well and was soon discontinued.
Ormandy also made a small stack of discs for Telarc in its earliest days. He should be on the list of major conductors who recorded for the most labels.
Totally agree with Wand, he made a character full sound with the NDR...
Karajan's sound was unmistakable. A few years after I started listening to classical music, something came on the radio, maybe a Strauss waltz or something. I immediately knew it was Karajan's recording because it sounded just like his Mozart just like his Beethoven, just like his Brahms, etc...
🫤
Should Gergiev be added to the list? He has different strategies for being his own worst enemy - a mania for administrative control and attempting to conduct as many concerts as possible.
... and outsourcing most rehearsal work to others, so that his interpretative stamp is often nonexistent.
I heard him do the Taneyev 4th in Rotterdam years ago. Now this is a complicated work, but also a fairly unknown one so there isn't an interpretative tradition and routine in place. It was an absolute shambles. Nothing fitted, nothing worked, at one point the percussion section was actually a step behind the rest - sheer chaos. Mostly because it was de facto a first run-through, and not a good one.
@@bomcabedal Very true! It happens that he conducts concerts without even having done at least the final rehearsal and after having arrived only 10 minutes before the beginning.
and how he tried to destroy the impeccable standards of the Maryiinsky Ballet. He hates ballet and it sounds like it in his recordings.
Yes! Gergiev can't even really conduct, in terms of actually giving an orchestra hints as to where, or how, they should play. But he seems to be a master at getting attention for himself.
Dave, I'm a bit confused. In your review of Bruckner's "Romantic" Symphony, you said that Wand's recording with the Berlin Philharmonic was one in which "everything went right", and tied for the best recording of this work along with Jochum's Berlin Philharmonic recording. Yet here you say that Wand's recording with the NDR Symphony is better.
No, that is not what I said.
Now, I'm no authority on Claudio Abbado: and yet, there's a Mahler symphony - was it the 7th? - which I thought magnificent, and I could have forgiven him anything after it. Lord knows, though - I'm with you on poor old Solti. I KNEW, though, that you'd get to Günter Wand - he was so old, so ill, so blind, I know I shouldn't but I find that influences my appreciation of him; he was a great, great conductor though. If I'm looking for a great Bruckner recording, Wand is my first choice; plus Skrovacevik (I'm sure that spelling is wrong: I can do German, but not Polish) - AND, if I can find a good pressing, Furtwängler. Less impressed by Karajan and Tintner, but that may be because I was conditioned by others.
Skrowaczewski😆😆
Dave at some point I would appreciate your views on the alternative -Carlos Kleiber, who made few records, was dynamite in the opera house, but fiercely critical of his own work, and enraged by the Tristan und Isolde that was released, apparently without his approval.
Already done.
Thanks Dave, have now seen your review of the Kleiber box, and agree with it -and had a warm chuckle over your Met Otello story.
Of course you have to have Haitink on this list!
Karajan made many videos along with the digital recordings- he said he wanted future generations to see him as well as hear him.
And was there anyone less interesting to look at on the podium?
John Williams.
Did make me laugh, and the answer is No. @@DavesClassicalGuide
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think he's interesting to look at, but not for 90 percent of the time when the camera was on him in those Unitel videos, lol.
@debussy10: Ah yes, the reason to go to the symphony is not to listen to the orchestra or hear a new work but to watch the conductor. Yes, that will the seats.
When I saw the topic of this video I was certain Mr Hurwitz’s number one example would be Lenny Bernstein :)
I have always wondered, where this conductors' insatiable drive to record one and the same stuff over and over again came from. For me, this is absolutely pathological, like Agent Smith from the Matrix movie who wants to multiply endlessly himself.
I think George Szell fits well into this category, despite also qualifying for the award of being a conductor who made great recordings 99% of the time. Szell had a long standing feud with Rudolph Bing.
I think a more apt title for today's talk would be 5 "Great" conductors who ... Also, do you not agree that Solti's s 2nd "Un Ballo en Maschera" sounds distinctly fresher and more lively than his very good first outing -- if thanks in large part to Pav and Price?
No. I do not agree at all.
I quite enjoy Solti's Zaubrflote remake; and several reviews I've read say that it's better than his first Zauberflote. I haven't heard the first, so I can't say whether I agree or not
Then you shouldn't comment about what you haven't heard. It's not better (but to be fair, they're both quite good). In any case, I left out discussion of opera because those recordings are more about singers than the conductor.
The second is more authentically Mozartian in regards to fleetness of conducting and weight of voices (the first has sometimes jokingly been referred to as "Zauberflote with a cast thinking they're singing Meistersinger"). For some, that means they'll prefer the second one. I find a great deal to enjoy in both of them.
Wondering about Dave's views of Sinopoli....
Do you think the Karajan's major objective on duplication could be the tecnology? He made one cycle in mono, then in stereo analogic, after in digital recording... Perhaps he think in a legacy with a better sound as possible...
Ironically, most of those early Karajan digitals had horrible sonics. But let's also not forget the financial argument. The LP to CD transition was a once in a lifetime con: labels were recording and selling the entire catalog again, and there was good money to be made for everyone.
I thought that was the clear motive for HvK - make sure yours is the definitive recording (of everything) by re-making it every time the technology improves or offers a new medium for collectors (video disc etc). A bonus for him was the opportunity to work with every new technology as it came along...
That wasn't true of Beethoven or Brahms or Tchaikovsky between the late 50s and late 70s, before the advent of CD. All LP stereo, and still tons of duplication.
@@Hometruths29 Up to a point. If the masses of offerings start to be indistinguishable from each other, there is no real choice. Too much choice can also become a problem.
@@davidwyatt850 Particularly in the 1980s, when those pictures with Herbert with his private jet, Herbert on his new Harley, and Herbert with his new wife started to adorn the CD covers.
Some say Solti's second Meistersinger was better than the first
Some do say that. It may even be true.
I suppose an example of a pianist equivalent would be Martha Argerich!
For sure.
Apparently Decca really was/were relieved when Solti died. They did not even acknowledge his death on their website.
In my experience when living in London, Solti was a wonderful conductor of live music, I have always been disappointed with his recordings of non-operatic repertoire. His Tannhauser is phenomenal, his Parsifal angelic, but his Tristan und Isolde never catches fire, and even in the famous Ring cycle I can only take Siegfried and Gotterdammerung. I think Abbado too was better live than in recording. Just my 2 cents.
During the latter half of his BPO tenure, Simon Rattle recorded a lot of commercial repertoire that I doubt his heart was in - Carmen, Carmina Burana - and that is already more than well-served by the existing catalogue. I think that was all about EMI extracting maximum value from his contract and getting the best possible return on their investment in SR. Did those recordings add to his reputation? I don’t think they did.
Rattle in general isn't really worth it in the standard repertoire. He's a modernist.
@@kanishknishar his recordings of the classics say nothing new about them. Did we need Beethoven and Brahms from Rattle? I don’t think so. Yes, he’s a modernist and best in 20th century onward repertoire.
How many conductor retire, life's work done etc, significantly before they peg out? Far too few I reckon.
Leinsdorf, Giulini, Dohnanyi, etc. 😁
I wonder how many conductors got better over their careers? It seems like many fade over time.
Klemperer... Reiner... Rozhdestvensky... Bernstein... Ozawa... to name but a few.
I don’t know about the others, but Klemperer got too slow.
I don’t know about the others, but Klemperer got too slow.
I don’t know about the others, but Klemperer got too slow.
I don’t know about the others, but Klemperer got too slow.
How about 5 conductors that never repeated recordings.
Interesting talk. Karajan Ormandy and Abbado just made too many records and in the case of Karajan relied too much on PR and marketing even if at times like in Vienna for Decca the results were noticeably better. All the power to people like Mackerras or Markevitch then. Posterity has vindicated them !
I think Cobra has only made bad records. He's basically a meme, like Celibedache on vallium.
Возможно, в этот список стоило включить Валерия Гергиева. Его заслуги перед музыкой остались в начале 90-х, а сегодня я опасаюсь любых записей с его участием Имя композитора или солиста, при этом, не играют роли. Его интерпретаций Бородина или Стравинского я не могу ему простить
I sympathize. His Rite of Spring was a scandal.
People should retire -- very good advice in lots of professions.
Especially politicians
This overlaps with your "decrepitude" allowance, doesn't it? All of the conductors you cited were quite old and several were infeebled in various ways when they did their late recordings, only a few of which (e.g., Karajan's Vienna Bruckner Eighth) stand up to comparison with earlier versions. To your list I would add Bernstein, except for Copland and some of the Mahler remakes, also Haitink and Jansons. Generally, you're better off with recordings by conductors who aren't too young (Mäkelä) or too old (Blomstedt). The same goes for many (most?) soloists. Ageless greats - Monteux, Mackerras, Arrau, Moravec, Milstein - are rare birds.
No, actually, it doesn't overlap at all. Karajan wasn't old when he made if 5 millionth Beethoven cycle, nor was Solti too old when he started redoing Mahler and Bartok. Ormandy was old by the time he got to EMI, but certainly not when he was recording for RCA. Gunter Wand, as I said, was a special case because all of his work for RCA was basically late in his career, but he didn't decline noticeably at all--he just duplicated endlessly. Nor was Abbado old when he made most of his worst recordings, in Berlin.
Lorin Maazel would be no. 6. From DG, to Decca, to CBS, to EMI, back to DG....re-re-recording a lot of stuff. He made some superb recordings, no doubt. And apparently sold a lot of records. After his R Strauss on CBS with Cleveland he should have left well enough alone and skipped the RCA remakes. He did the Mahler symphonies three times - and they got worse as they went along.
Totally agree, although he was never a candidate for the "almost never made a bad record" sweepstakes.
Bernard Haitink? Don't know how billion versions of Bruckner 8 and Mahler 9 he has recorded
And with respect to him - after all, he has but recently left us - I don't think he really got either of them. But shoot me down, I probably deserve it.
Never understood the admiration for him, his recordings are bland and uninteresting. I saw him conduct Mahler 4 at the Concertgebouw and couldn't understand why such heavenly music live never made it to the recording studio.
@@clementewerner IMO, most of the analog Philips studio recordings (with whatever orchestra or conductor) sound really pale and overly transparent, which might be one of the weirdest mysteries in recording history. The weird sound quality did heavily degraded the hearing experience then.
Did Bruno Walter ever make a bad record?
Quite a few.
What violation of the law would Abbado have to sue the record label? The label owns the copyright to the recordings. They can do what they want.
Not if he has contractual rights, as he supposedly did here. Stupid to give those rights away, but it happens.
I see. Thanks for the clarification.@@DavesClassicalGuide
Karajan also played things he really should not have. I haven-t met a critic who thinks that his Brandenburg concerti are not a joke.
I’ve noticed there are some staunch Karajan fans out there & I don’t really get it. So glad DH says it how it actually is.
@@Hometruths29 I don’t hate him at all & like most classical music collectors I own quite a few of his [good] recordings. I’ve been listening a lot to his Schoenberg, Berg & Webern work a lot recently.
@@Hometruths29 The view of Karajan is definitely skewed either way. I’m just into the music Bordigera.