Who Do Immersion Programs Work For and Why?
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- Опубликовано: 4 сен 2024
- We often get asked about Spanish immersion programs.
Can we recommend a good immersion program? Where is the best place to find one? Etc. And, my usual response is that I don't recommend immersion programs for most students.
In this video, you'll learn:
- Why immersion programs don't work for most students
- Who immersion programs work for and why
- The main principle of language learning that immersion programs work against
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Have you had a similar experience with an immersion program? Please share your experience below!
How do you feel about language apps such as Duolingo?
@@gidgetlawrence2536 I like Duolingo for beginners, but it becomes less and less effective the more advanced you become.
My experience was a bit different because my situation was different. I had a base level of Spanish and I went to a two week immersion program in Cuernevaca. It really leveled up my understanding. By taking time out and focusing only on Spanish, it consolidated my understanding and helped me move toward thinking in Spanish.
@@realfastspanishThank you for getting back to me, Andrew.
I have been supplementing my learning by watching and listening to your videos and others.
It is unlikely that I will spend a lot of time in a Spanish speaking country.
I find RUclips videos very helpful.
I went to Mexico for a two-week immersion program and it was super duper helpful. However there are some caveats to why that was the case for me, I think. First, I did not go to an immersion program until I had been learning Spanish on my own for about 2 years. I was probably at a B1 level, so I was able to converse in a basic way. I stayed with a married couple that didn't speak any English, or if they did, I didn't know it because we only spoke Spanish. In the school I went to, my lessons were generally either private, or perhaps with one other person.
The teaching was completely interactive and conversation-based, and sometimes involved playing games which were fun and useful. Oftentimes during a lesson, I would identify some specific topic that confused me and we would stop and focus on that thing until I got it, and in that way I had several "aha" moments that resolved problems I had been unable to figure out on my own. Everything was in Spanish of course, but there was no big prohibition about asking about something in English if I just couldn't figure out a way to get it across any other way.
The reason why the immersion experience was so incredibly helpful to me is because of the fact that I was only hearing and speaking Spanish 14 hours a day, and I had to think on my feet to communicate. After every day's lessons, which were about 4 hours, I would take the bus down to the city center to the park and strike up conversations with random people, which was a bit intimidating but really valuable.
But the big breakthrough came on the Monday of the second week. I was having a conversation with my hostess over breakfast, and I realized I was late for school. I grabbed my stuff and ran out the door and about halfway to the school I suddenly realized that I had forgotten I was speaking to her in Spanish! For the first time, I had stopped translating from English to Spanish in my head. It was like a switch flipped in my brain. After that, there was a big improvement in my ability to speak, and especially in my comprehension.
When I got back to U.S., I listened to a podcast that I had listened to just a couple of weeks before I left for Mexico. Before the trip, I understood maybe 50% of it. When I got back and listened to the exact same podcast, I understood about 95%.
I am just beginning to study Italian now, and once I get to a B1 level, I plan to go to Italy to do a 2-3 week immersion program.
Thanks for sharing Toby!! 😊 When I did my immersion program, I was at a similar level around B1/B2. My program was 4 weeks in Spain with 6 hours per day of classes and I would also speak a lot with locals and friends outside of class. But I experienced nowhere near the progress that you experienced. A near doubling of listening comprehension in 2 weeks is absolutely incredible!!! I would say that my boost from the 4 weeks was around 10%, which quickly faded within a few weeks after I got home. And, as I mentioned in the video, this is due to the cramming effect, how our brains learn, and how our memories retain information long-term. I would expect a short-term boost in your skills but I wouldn't expect it to last. You didn't mention if the effect was long-lasting over several months or if the effect faded within a few weeks of getting home?
@@realfastspanish Indeed, the effect did fade somewhat when I got home, but never back to what it had been before. However, I really made a big effort to do a lot of listening to podcasts and such when I returned, and I had made some online practice partner friends, too. I also started doing online lessons once a week with one of the teachers from the immersion school. Still, unless I'm speaking Spanish on a regular basis every week, I definitely have degradation of my comprehension and speaking ability. In May and June, I went to Spain solo and traveled all over the country for about 5 weeks, and I feel as though that bumped my comprehension and speaking ability back up somewhat. (My Spanish is never going to be C1 level, but it's perfectly functional 😄.) But during the trip I definitely discovered the limits of my Spanish. I have no trouble carrying on general conversations with people (except in Andalusia..I have difficulty with the accent!), but I do have difficulty with following detailed instructions or directions. When I'm conversing with somebody there are often words or phrases here or there that I don't know but I can almost always guess what they mean from context and carry on with the discussion. But when I needed instructions or directions and the person I was speaking with was in a hurry and speaking very fast, it was necessary to understand 100% of what they were saying...and that was very difficult for me. Not quite sure how to practice that.
How much was the progam about thats amazin!🎉🎉🎉
Which program did you do?
My husband was assigned to another country to work with a company there for six weeks and was sent to Berlitz every Saturday for three months before going. When he got to the country, he spent 5 days in an immersion program. He became modestly able to speak the language while there, and was able, for the most part, to understand his colleagues as they spoke. BUT, upon return home, he wasn't able to continue speaking the language and is now trying to relearn the language. I went to another country in a community college's 3 week study abroad program. We students stayed, separately, with families that primarily spoke the language. During the week, we had four hours of language classes each day, then were out visiting different areas. I didn't really learn the language, did improve my vocabulary somewhat and became comfortable with speaking the very basics. The main thing that I learned (with the encouragement of the wonderful family I stayed with) is that it is ok to TRY to speak, to make mistakes and try again. I am still friends with that family and want to return to see them.
Thanks for sharing!! 🙏
Let me start with, as always I enjoyed the video. But my experience with an immersion program was different. I spent 1 week in a 1-1 program in Mexico learning Spanish. Before I went, I had spent 2 months in classes, 4 days a week. And when I got back, I continued with daily practice. What I found was the immersion helped me ¨level up¨. I came back with greater facility in using what I learned both prior to and during my immersion program. But to your point, I kept up with regular practice afterwards to help keep what I had gained. Just wanted to share my experience.
Thanks for sharing Adam!! I didn’t talk in detail about my own experience in the video. But I spent 4 weeks in an immersion program in Spain and I was extremely disappointed with the lack of “levelling up” that I experienced. My skills improved much more prior to and in the subsequent months after the program than during it. I did a lot of research afterwards to understand what the problem was and that lead to research on the cramming effect, the spacing effect and the importance of long-term consistency. But it sounds like you are benefiting from long-term consistency which is great! Keep up the good work!! 👍
In total agreement with you. I experienced the same. I thought I could not learn Spanish. But you have summed it all up in 15 minutes. I've taken the same steps. Now I'm moving forward, learning fast and correctly. All my doubts are disappearing. You seem to understand the phycology of learning. Why not write a book for those who don't follow you. It's really of help
I agree with your points in this video. I did an immersion week in Mexico and it was really fun. Small, interactive classes and great teachers. 5 hours a day with homework. It was a great experience and a great starting point but my learning continues.
Thanks for sharing Leslie! 😊 Yes, it's a good point, I could have mentioned in the video that immersion programs can be a fun way to meet people. But, they won't have the impact on your Spanish skills that you had hoped for going in.
Great points. Thanks! Based on quite a few one-week immersion programs in Latin America and Spain I'd say it's a "both/and" situation rather than "either/or". Years ago when I did exactly what you report -- fly in/fly home - I forgot almost everything pretty quickly. But now I'm a bit smarter about it and I combine the immersion with tons of hours at home learning via Internet tools, Skype tutors, etc. In that case, the longer duration sessions in the immersion programs are a great way to solidify the at-home learning. Plus the cultural exposure is a great motivator.
Thanks for sharing Tom!! 😊 Yes, consistent long-term home learning is the critical component for success! Keep up the good work!
All great advice.
When I first started learning German 40 years ago, there were no RUclips teachers.
There were 3 methods.
a) Textbooks - everybody knew they didn't work
b) Evening classes - everybody knew they didn't work
c) Living in Germany and immersing in the language.
So if you met somebody fluent in a foreign language 40 years ago, you could almost guarantee they had immersed in the language abroad for 1 year at least , probably at least 2. Exceptions were rare.
So I think people have the same feeling today. A person fluent in a foreign language must have immersed themselves in the country, because that's how it works.
Except things are different from 40 years ago. And short term immersion courses might be a great holiday (I've been thinking of doing one for just that reason), but short term is not long term. Learning a language takes time.
Thanks for the feedback Steven! 😊
"Books don't work"? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... that;s quite a statement!
@@catskillsonline Textbooks from the 1980s don't work. I was talking about the situation 40 years ago. I think the idea that only immersion really works is a historical leftover from times when other methods weren't as good.
As a Spanish teacher myself, I rather agree with this, spaced repetition is really key. Repetition, in general, is hard because it is boring. Making the repetition "novel" and entertaining is the challenge for most people. That is where a good teacher who provides practice that is meaningful can help.
Thanks, Marilyn, yes, I completely agree!! 👍 I often say that repetition can be really boring but it is where high-level performance is born. Anyone who has achieved a high level in any field (e.g. sports, music, academics etc.) has spent hours and hours practising their craft often in what would be considered boring ways.
Thanks! I have always dreamed of an immersion program. Now, I'll go back to my day to day studies and just keep plugging away. Thanks!
I did an immersion program for only 2 weeks and it helped solidify stuff I'd already learned. It was much easier to retain new vocabulary and grammatical structures. But before the trip and after, I kept doing home "immersion" - virtually everything i do is in Spanish. I still do spaced repetition and am very consistent. So I can definitely see it being more like cramming if you're not being consistent before and after, but for me it was great.
Love the video, thanks for this! I agree completely that immersion programs aren't much good for learning - and retaining - the language... but they're great for exposure to the culture of a region. 12 years ago, I did 2 programs of 3 weeks each - and they changed my life.
After a few weeks of a Spanish evening class at university, I knew I wasn't learning anything. So I scheduled one program in Guatemala and one in México, but the morning I was packed and headed to the airport, I checked the news, only to find that the Pacaya volcano erupted - the airport was shut down. Quickly looked up other possibilities (I had a small window of vacation time from work to go) and found a school in Puebla, México. The school was intense, but good - family I stayed with? not so great, but I did lots of day trips - enjoyed afternoons at the zócolo, watching people - struggled with travelers checks at the bank (my signature didn't match exactly enough for them to cash the checks - a cultural detail I would never have known about).
Four months later, I went to Guanajuato - crappy school, but *great* family who taught me to not be afraid to make mistakes, just talk, fill in an English word if needed and keep going. Every morning, la mamá and I would watch the morning tv shows and we cried over the emotion of the Chilean miners being rescued. I'd scheduled my time in the city during the annual Festival Cervantino, and I went to concerts, plays, art exhibits, an opera - had a glorious time.
The whole experience was eye-opening and unsettling in ways that led mi noivo y yo to discuss moving - not *away* from where we lived, but *toward* a new life experience. It took a while to make it happen, but 7 years ago, I moved to Uruguay (which was not for me) and then to Chile, where I'm (patiently) waiting for my permanencia definitiva visa to be finalized. Zero regrets... but my Spanish, especially understanding what I hear, still needs *a lot* of work!
Thanks for sharing! 😊Yes, I didn't talk much about cultural experiences in the video, I was focused on how best to learn the language and retain it long-term. But, I agree, it can be fun to go and experience another culture for a few weeks!!
I agree with the comment below: immersion can work as a way to "jump up" to a higher level of proficiency. But only if (1) you have regularly studied with spaced repetition for at least one year (better two-three) years first, and (2) you resume your spaced repetition when you come home. This worked for me with German. I was fortunate that I studied German in high school and college. 20 years later (after barely using the German) I joined the US subsidiary of a German company. I started again with some local college classes. The annual business trips to Germany were mini-immersion experiences. Each time, these trips jumped me up to another level. Or widened my knowledge base on a new subject. Now retired for a few years, I have begun my German studies again. I am always amazed at how much German I have at my fingertips (or is it the tip of my tongue?), despite not having used it on a regular basis for several years. I'm hoping to do this with Spanish. Since April, I've been spending time on Spanish every day. Sometimes it's only 15 minutes reading a story or doing exercises. Other times it's a 45 minutes zoom chat with other learners. Maybe it's a children's cartoon on youtube. My plan is to do an "immersion type" visit to Mexico for 3-4 weeks next March or April after one year of dedicated spaced repetition studies. And, when I get back, I'll resume the spaced repetition studies. If it worked for me in German, why not Spanish? There are no shortcuts, whether you are learning to knit, differentiate calculus equations or learning a new language. Regular, dedicated repetition, coupled with immersion bouts, is the way to go.
I've seen several of your videos recently. They are spot on. Your hacks and recommendations work for mastering any new area of knowledge. Me encanta mucho "the 2 minute rule." Bravo.
I found your advice very useful, the spaced repetition table reinforces the idea of learn and relearn very well and I am going to create a timed schedule for my wordlists. One thing I know well is embarking on a piece of conversation and slamming into a "brick wall" when you have either forgotten or simply don't know the next word and end up floundering for a work around! The word association idea is also great advice. One useful resource is 'Google translate'. Although sometimes! there can be issues with incorrect translations, I use it to get a take on how a word should sound. I do weekly spells of Spanish immersion often with a local native speaker and I find that you need quite a degree of knowledge of the language already to get fluidity especially to understand colocations - how people really converse, beyond the classroom! So all your advice hits my challenge and learn points, Muchas gracias por esto.
My one month immersion program was really good in the area of improving my fear of speaking out loud. After class my favourite way to spend some time was going to markets and talking to as many people as I could. I did forget a lot later on but the self confidence mostly remained.
Thanks for sharing Richard!! 🙏 It was great to hear that you were able to shed the fear of speaking. I mentioned in another comment that if you were able to do some lessons on say iTalki spaced out over time you may have been able to achieve both goals: gaining confidence as well as retaining the information over a longer time frame.
Great video! Thank you for this type of content.
Thanks Eric!! 😊
I’m planning a 6 (possibly 11) week immersion course in Mexico, combined with living there for 1-2 years. So I assume that combined with some continued on my own learning outside of those 6 weeks, while living there, should put me in a good position to acquire the language.
Thanks Dee, the key to your success will be how well you implement the continued learning outside the 6 weeks, that's what matters most!! Moreover, if your continued learning over the 2 years is good enough, you won't need the 6-week immersion program.
During my IT career I had very many training courses. Most dealt with entirely new concepts. Some were extremely intensive; 12 hour days over a periods of two, three or four weeks with certifcation exams at the end which had to be passed.
I often thought that I could recall or remember little of the vast amount of information. However, a phenomenon that surprised me several times was that, some time later, often many weeks I would find myself employing methods, data, facts and information I had learned on the courses without recourse to reference books or notes.
So, I'm not entirely convinced by your conclusions.
Furthermore, I believe I'm right in saying that the Diplomatic Service uses similar methods to bring their people up to a high level of fluency in the target language.
Mind you, not everybody wants to willingly endure that level of discomfort. It is arduous!
Thanks for the feedback Jose! 😊 You're right, it's definitely possible to remember things a few weeks after a course. But, it's important to note that the time in the course matters a great deal. And then how long after you are trying to remember the information afterwards. If you do a 1-week course and then try to remember everything a year later without review, it will be very difficult. The Spanish course in the Foreign Services Institute runs for 24 weeks, and then ideally, the student will then go straight into an environment not long after the course to use what they learned every day for the subsequent years following the course.
The situation that I see regularly as a Spanish teacher is that a student goes to Mexico for one week and then comes home and doesn't do much Spanish for the coming months and so most of what was gained in the 1-week is lost. Instead, it's much more important to set up regular study habits at home at least on a weekly basis.
that is one of the reasons I have resisted certain IT boot camps. Like learning Java or Networking in 3 days. I know the style of learning that works for me and though I may retain just enough to pass a test at the end of that class I also know unless I was immediately thrust into a position of having to use it the day after class I will quickly forget it. I have taken a SQL class three times. Each time I really enjoyed it and then I never use it again in my career. So I take the class again. Then repeat the process of not using it for years until I take a class again.
Im American born with 2 years of French and 2 years of Spanish both at college level, spaced apart. I live in miami where I have a lot of Spanish exposure but wouldn't say I'm immersed here. Most of my relationships have e with native Spanish speakers so I have home exposure 😂. I am thinking about doing 5 weeks of immersion in Medellin in a program that is one-on-one and conversationally based. My goal is jump start my conversational abilities. What are your thoughts on this type of experience.
All of this! But also, when did "immersion" become 1 to 3 weeks in a program? I do know a couple of people who learned another language, or a lot of it, by living somewhere and studying for a year or more. And I'm sure they still used all of their English resources, but the "immersion" tactic used to refer to very long period of living somewhere. It wasn't until recently that I saw short "immersion" programs, some as short as a weekend.
But "immersion" learning is no longer even relegated to going somewhere. I did a few things purporting to be based on the idea--classes taught 80% in Spanish, and one-on-ones talking with a teacher, not short things, but like weekly for a couple of years on top self-guided learning. I thought that the immersed interaction would help me gain more speaking ability. Certainly, some progress was made, but it was slow going, trying to learn Spanish in Spanish, not really knowing Spanish. and it gave me the opposite of confidence in speaking. It's not the same for everyone, but for me confidence comes with knowing what I'm doing or thinking I do. I made far greater progress going back and learning everything in English (in RFS). At this point, I can't say I see any benefit to denying myself 44 years of life experience and forcing myself to learn like a 2-year old!
I originally took a French immersion-style class. The class had some basics in English but much of the class including instruction was immersion. I did not find it useful and in fact, became frustrated. I'm fairly analytical which means I want to know why something is what it is and this can be a problem with a language because the rules do not equate. However, I may need to work through that process before ultimately landing on that conclusion with any given rule. Processing of information requires some time and I found I was spending more time trying to figure out what the instructor was saying through context, body language, and limited vocabulary than I was locking in certain concepts or vocabulary. I eventually left and am now taking Spanish and it is going much better. The association and the repetition are definitely more helpful.
Thanks for sharing!! 🙏 Yes, the key is long term consistency, I’m glad to hear you’ve found that with your Spanish studies.
I guess I kind of did an immersion program when I was studying Gàidhlig. I would attend the class on Sunday, but I taped the classes and listened to them while I was at work, for about 40 hours per week. Then some cramming before my first foreign trip where I expected to use the language. I did much better than my classmates, who did not have the opportunity to spend 40 hours a week on the language. I don't remember how many years I did this before my first trip, though it was for a good while.....
The core truth is that there is no "quick fix" with language. Unless you are (maybe) a Mensa person (and what % of the population might that be???) there is no short cut to language learning. People who want to "be fluent" in 3 months are not dealing with the reality of how the brain works and retains information, let alone can apply the info in a live, unpredictable situation.
I LMAO when I see the click bait saying "I learned (insert language here) in 30 days/3 months". Wow, maybe enough to squeak by for sure, but not enough to comfortably live and work abroad. Reality slaps you in the face😁
Learned Spanish at 40 in Costa Rica in a 6 week immersion course living with a large family that didn't speak English and classes 5 days week. I was speaking in 6 weeks. I attribute my quickness in learning Spanish to having studied German in middle and High School plus I was in love with the Latinas. Los Costaricenses (Ticos) usualmente usar solo usted y no tú - entonces no necesito aprender las conjugaciones de tú.
What if your issue is that you’re on the precipice of speaking and forming sentences but you’re too shy to speak to people? I was thinking an immersion might help me break through that?
Yes, it might help. But you can also do some lessons on iTalki, that would help if you are feeling shy and you can space the lessons out over time, once per week or a couple of times per week, that way you can achieve both goals: getting over your shyness and staying consistent for long-term success.
I have been considering doing and an immersion program as a kind of excuse for a holiday to spain or chile, from nz. I take on board what you say. Perhaps I will look for one that is not so full on, and provides more cultural aspects as part of it. What do you think?
Hola Tim, if your goal is to meet people, have fun and travel then it can be a good way to have some different experiences. The purpose of this video is to remind everyone that the key to success with language learning is long term consistency. If you go in with that mind, then the rest is all good 👍
In my experience, you can really level up your Spanish through an immersion program. HOWEVER, you have to keep studying and using Spanish when you return home. One of my Conversation Exchange buddies actually teaches English in Mexico. But she knows that if she doesn't have regular conversations with native English speakers, she'll lose her English (even if she teaches it).
*whom not who
Do you push yourself at one time in another, and then doing it slowly like a pattern in spanish?
Yes, absolutely, the key is consistency! 😊 It doesn't have to be slow, just make sure it is spread out over time so our memories will hold onto the information.
Interesting, but not entirely convincing. You mention "association" and "spaced repetition" as paths to learning but only compare immersion to spaced repetition. I have never been to an immersion program (and probably won't do one because of flight shame) but I would imagine that their effectiveness lies in learning in a new and therefore association-rich environment.
When you tell us that someone will have forgotten a proportion (80%) of what they learned, that number is meaningless unless we know the total (the loss may be factored in and 20% may still be a significant amount).
Further, I am a big believer in working the numbers in language acquisition too, but the question is whether those 20% "dregs" are qualitatively different to knowledge that is acquired through spaced repetition. My experience with Spanish is that it is very effective for "listemes" (e.g. names of easily categorised objects) but less so for learning vocabulary items which a less willing to be in a list. If this is a general experience it may be related to L1 development. This is exactly the class of words we learned in our prams by pointing and asking our mums. What is the data on the relative effectiveness of spaced repetition with different kinds of words (or other linguistic knowledge).
My concern would be that if there are qualitative differences learners can end up with an unbalanced learning program.
Thanks for the feedback Paul! Based on your feedback, it sounds like I wasn't clear enough and may need to do another video to make it clearer. Spaced repetition and immersion aren't two separate methods. Spaced repetition is an effect that helps our memories acquire information over the long term.
This is why I mentioned cramming in the video. Cramming can have a short-term effect but doesn't work for long-term results. And cramming doesn't work long-term because the spacing effect doesn't have enough time to work.
In other words, a one-week immersion program is not enough time for the spacing effect to kick in. If you want to learn Spanish and have it in your memory for years, then a one-week immersion program or a two-week or even three-week program is not enough for the spacing effect to work. The moment you leave the immersion environment the forgetting curve (a concept I talked about in my master a phrase video) will mean that you start forgetting more and more as time goes on after you get home.
If you want to have Spanish in your memory for 10 years, you'll ideally need to find a strategy that involves consistently studying the language spaced out over at least 5 years.
Association is another effect, like spaced repetition, that helps our memories acquire information over the long term. But, an immersion program won't specifically help with association. A student needs to use strategies that will link new ideas to ideas that they already have in their minds to remember information to use association (e.g. encontrar and encounter). A few common association strategies include mnemonics and memory palaces (this is a video for another day).
Neither association nor spaced repetition is perfect, our memories will eventually let go of ideas given enough time unless we revisit the memories on a regular basis.
I bet you hate it when people quote you back. Konrad Adenauer was famous for almost saying "was kümmert mich mein Geschwätz von gestern?" - "why should I worry about whatever I said yesterday?"
ruclips.net/video/4URFWAOaL64/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/zZ1MrxHB1B4/видео.html
Seems to me as if you are using two separate definitions of what you mean by "immersion". (also the difference between "immersion" and "immersion program" seems relevant, but my first thought is that "immersion *program*" sounds a bit as if it might be an oxymoron. Key to the weakness of immersion has to be the question of noticing. That is what I would like to hear your thoughts on. Is there any debate in the L2 field on whether immersion is a method or a state?
In that context, what might also be useful as a video is one on the difference between "closed caption" and "subtitles". I notice often that the two terms are conflated ( Here is Elena from Linguiosa, who is generally very picky in her terms, conflating the two ruclips.net/video/T902VU_LW4k/видео.html ). I haven't looked at the study they are talking about, but I would guess that closed captions can serve some limited purpose supporting noticing but I that subtitles in English is not much different to watching a dubbed film - .As Elena says, "as soon as there is something to read, that is all I can concentrate on". Even with closed caption the words you read are generally going to be at least a second or two off their spoken occurrence, so it might well be that for many learning purposes they might as well be on the moon.
(Background information: I am learning Spanish (with a great deal of help from your stuff) but my professional field is augmentative communication)
This seems to defy my understanding of what immersion actually means. You should not be using your unspoken native language (thought) to learn a new language. Instead, like a toddler, your learning of a new language should not involve translation in any way. This seems to contradict what this instructor is telling us. Immersion is not about translation or even memorization. But, all about direct visual, audible, verbal association.
This video feels like a biased sales pitch as the author is trying to entice students to spend money with his business rather than with an immersion program.
English only
Matiox
As a Spanish teacher myself, I rather agree with this, spaced repetition is really key. Repetition, in general, is hard because it is boring. Making the repetition "novel" and entertaining is the challenge for most people. That is where a good teacher who provides practice that is meaningful can help.