@@HeatGeek You need to join our channel. £2.99 per month. Also, all the money I receive from the join button goes to Candlelighters. I will also match all donations up to a maximum cap of £1000. Thanks.
My local firm charges a minimum of £8,000 to fit an air source heat pump system. Completely out of the price range of most households. I bet the yearly maintenance cost is also expensive. And how long would they survive in wet and windy Britain?
Having read the majority of comments with the replies, the HP queries are from those wishing to understand the work needed to apply a HP solution to a new or existing property. My conclusion is a lot more education needed to the installers out there ,wanting to deliver this alternative heating solution. The Manufactures/Distributers/Dealers are way behind the curve relying on such as Heat Geek to educate the heating population. Heat Pumps work, they deliver, but only if the designer installer stops justifying that they work. Its a heating system working differently from Gas/Oil. Accept that they work or stay away from the technology, if you don't grow your knowledge you won't succeed with the Heat Pump. Education, application, installation = experience
Nice one 👍 I think the retrofit of ASHP is very much more challenging than the blank canvas of a new build. This technology lends itself (and thrives) in super insulated homes and with underfloor heating. Not saying it cannot be retrofitted, just that super insulating older homes may be difficult or nigh on impossible and getting flow rates right for the low ‘Delta T’ could be tricky to the point of expensive - especially on wet systems installed with micro bore piping.
Thank you very much for the explanation. Imagine all houses in UK are connected to heat pumps. How much power would consume from national grid. I do not think the grid would be capable to provide some much demand. The compressors don't run on modulating speed. I think is fixed speed and is not cheap to run. Second it is the installation price and parts to fix. Massive difference with boilers. Hydrogen is the best alternative I think.
@@HeatGeek I install them myself, mainly in new builds and with UF heating, but often get calls to retrofit existing systems with boilers to HPs. Even with newer models, like the one shown in the video (advertised as an alternative to a gas boiler in a retrofit) , it simply doesn't perform as claimed by the manufacturers because of poor insulation and microbore pipe work in existing houses. And I would add that the existing grid does not have the capacity to support such a large number of HPs. In winter at peak consumption hours they would all underperform or start throwing error codes. Also, keep in mind that at lower temperatures (under 5 C) a 12kW HP only has an output of about 8-9 kW and has to rely on electric heating elements to compensate, lowering the COP by a significant amount. Also given the fact that they are substantially more expensive than a gas boiler and adding the cost of oversizing the radiators and the pipework, i just don't think HPs are an alternative to gas boilers.
Great video and very knowledgeable. But I feel heat pumps will never take of fully. 30 million homes in the UK. The last 20+ years, new builds have installed 10mm pipe to rads. Many older builds have 8mm pipe from manifolds to rads. Most homes aren’t insulated enough for heat pumps to be efficient enough. The cost of heat pumps and altering a house to meet the spec would cost £20,000 plus. By the time you get through a quarter of UK homes, an alternative to heat pumps will be here.
Cracking video Allen. Really well presented by Heat Geek. It'd be great if you had the opportunity to get some footage on any heat pump installs, which I know is easier said than done in the current climate. Heat pumps are definitely going to be more commonplace. Take care mate.
@@HeatGeek So what are we talking about in a three bedroom domestic house typically. Would I be correct in saying this type of system is impractical in older brick built buildings.
Great video. One question I have is about COP. If 1Kw of electricity is used by the compressor to get a COP of say 4. That mean 3KW of heat needs to come from the evaporator. Surely on a cold day the COP will go down? Also how much electricity is the fan using blowing over the evaporator? I'm trying to get a better understanding of real efficiency here. So let me try an example if the compressor was using 3KW of electricity and the evaporator is only able to provide 1KW heat then I have a COP of 1.3. I am beginning to like the thought. Might build one myself using parts from my old fridge just to experiment...
Really great video. I've seen a lot of negativity in the UK from people from people who are stuck in their ways and don't take time to understand the bigger picture. Gas is going and hydrogen boilers are "green" but hugely inefficient when considering the huge (54%) energy losses incurred during the production of hydrogen. Good insulation and heat pumps are the future.
The trouble is though, producing and delivering electricity often isn't very efficient, gas turbines are only around 60% efficient at best, that's why electricity is far more expensive 4 - 5 times more than gas p kwh
Good insulation works for gas or oil heating also, it matters not what the source of heat is, it is retaining the heat that matters. There is a misunderstanding about the efficiency of heat pumps. All the calculations I've seen are based on the elctrical unit of power. However there are many losses in making and distributing electricity, when that is taken into account heat pumps don't look so good, particularly air source.
Alan, Firstly Love your channel 👍 what’s your thoughts on the following issue I have ... I have a Air source heat pump installed in my home 5 years ago, super way to heat our home. All under floor heating downstairs and rads up stairs. We have an issue down stairs, all the rooms downstairs are on individual stats however, we have an issue in 2 rooms. If I put the stat on in call it room A, room B starts to heat. If I turn on the stat in room B only room B heats as it should. What might be the issue.. ? room A basically won’t heat but the stat does heat room B.... confused 🤷♂️
Hi after looking at your very instructive video I checked my flow and return of my 10 year old condensing combi oil boiler using a k probe and a true result meter i was astonished to find my flow temperature was around 40 degrees and return about 35 degrees after the boiler was running for 30 minutes when I installed the system I done a heat loss assessment on my 70s bungalow and used nearly all of my 9 radiators being doubles perhaps I oversized the rads the house heats well I assume that my boiler is coming to the end of its usefull life and as the flow temperature is low it could work well with an ashp in my 110 sq meter insulated and double glazed bungalow
Hello. I am going to replace windows and add insulation. Coming from electric acumulation to air surce heat pump. If I let someone calculate my heat loss calculation for each room and then I measure each radiator in house and try to look up its kW power. How do i compare its power to room heat loss temperature? When is it power too low and it should be replaced for bigger one?
Also gas is 3p kwh and electricity is 14p kwh that's why nobody saves money by installing one, you can buy 4 kwh gas or a bit more for the same price as 1 kwh electricity. Also when they generate electricity from gas turbines its only 60% efficient!
You might not have such cheap access to gas, you might have lower cost electricity available with time of use tariffs, you might have your own generation, you can save money on servicing...
@@edc1569 Our problem with power generation and other industrial processes is that here in the UK we don't recover the lost heat and supply this lost heat to houses within the area, I believe in some other countries they do do this, if the UK is serious about the environment then this has got to be the next step.
I have double radiators, but unfortunately piping is small, and changing the piping is not a option presently. I'm on oil, would it still be worth my while to have a heat source pump? Thanks
Thank you for the explanation. Having watched it i can honestly say i will never go down the road of a heat pump. You can't claim there is useable heat at zero degrees centigrade just by using a different scale of temperature measurement since 273 degrees kelvin is exactly rhe same point as zero degrees centigrade. Ie there is no heat. Simple energy laws of P1 T1 =P2 T2 or P1V1/T1 =P2V2/T2 are energy conversion and not somehow creating energy out of thin air. Compressing gasses will increase heat but at zero degrees centigrade (273 kelvin) there isn't much heat to drag out. You also do not mention hysteresis losses of the compressor you claim is doing all the work. Compressors are extremely expensive to run given the large electrical load required to run them and they will not give you five times more energy from what you put in. To me your explanation proves this whole heat pump thing is complete tosh. I for one will not be installing one.
Not knowledgeable enough on domestic heat pumps to have a worthwhile opinion on their future in the UK at least but he's correct in pointing out that 0 deg C is a lot hotter than 0 K which is defined as absolute zero used in physics to define when all the atoms in a gas effectively stop moving and posses no thermal energy or heat. 0 deg C is only the freezing point of water and obviously an awful lot hotter than the effective freezing point of a gas at - 273 deg C so there's plenty of energy and hence heat available. He didn't make it very clear but there's a difference in the amount of electrical energy required to liberate a certain amount of thermal energy which is what's released when you compress a gas in a compressor forcing a fixed volume of it to change phase i.e go from a gas to a liquid. When that happens it effectively releases a fixed amount of heat, the latent heat of evaporation, that evey gas has to release in order to change back to a liquid. It's exactly the same process in reverse that allows air conditioning to work.
@@iainsmith5089 If you wanted more heat to sell ashps wouldn't it be better to use the Fahrenheit scale as there are 32 degrees fahrenheit at zero degrees centigrade. Loads more heat to use and oodles of potential energy to be extracted. What could possibly go wrong.
So basically if you put you hand on the back of your fridge and feel the heat its this process in reverse ? And renewables are great ideas for super insulated new homes but the majority of homes in the uk with poor insulation and worn double glazing not so sure ? Example you kids come in and out the house and wait half a day for the room to become warm again ? hence lot of folk have a wood burner to boost which are also on the to ban list ,a bit like electric cars we are not quite there yet cost and efficiency.
I think it's time to build houses with two solid insulated floors We all know ufh runs at far lower temeratures. The Government needs to implement this .
How do u get more energy out, than u put in? Isn't that impossible? How can u get 3kw out for each kW u put in (COP=3)? If u can, you could take 1 of those kW u get out and feed it back in to produce an infinite amount of energy for no cost - which is plainly impossible!
Great video but most people don’t give a shit about their carbon footprint. They can barely afford their current fuel bills. Rising fuel prices are a nightmare. I’m in a 2017 very well insulated new build detached house with underfloor heating everywhere. Our airsourse heat pump is a nightmare. The amount of electricity to run it costs a fortune. Windows are not left open. Room thermostats are set at 21 degrees C in winter. The fan unit is noisy and creates so much cold air.
How noisy are these fans? And is it safe around kid cause I know my kid like to put things in stuff Will I need to become f gas register to service them?
I genuinely don't feel this is going to be a viable option for the majority of (older) houses in the UK; they just aren't insulated as well and will require a huge amount of investment (insulation, changing of rads and larger pipework) and even then you will probably just break even with the COP of 3-4. The only way to move to this technology is to (unfortunately) increase the price of gas until the consumer has no other option.
www.justgiving.com/fundraising/cchleeds
Thanks for having me on Allen!
Thank you for the video and your kind donation.
@@AllenHart999 how'd you get the cool emojis!? 😍😍😍
@@HeatGeek
@@HeatGeek You need to join our channel. £2.99 per month. Also, all the money I receive from the join button goes to Candlelighters. I will also match all donations up to a maximum cap of £1000. Thanks.
🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱🌱
My local firm charges a minimum of £8,000 to fit an air source heat pump system. Completely out of the price range of most households. I bet the yearly maintenance cost is also expensive. And how long would they survive in wet and windy Britain?
Thanks Geek and Alan, great to have a simple explanation all be it just an introduction to the technical side of air heat source pump systems.
Thank You
Having read the majority of comments with the replies, the HP queries are from those wishing to understand the work needed to apply a HP solution to a new or existing property. My conclusion is a lot more education needed to the installers out
there ,wanting to deliver this alternative heating solution. The Manufactures/Distributers/Dealers are way behind the curve relying on such as Heat Geek to educate the heating population. Heat Pumps work, they deliver, but only if the designer installer stops justifying that they work. Its a heating system working differently from Gas/Oil. Accept that they work or stay away from the technology, if you don't grow your knowledge you won't succeed with the Heat Pump. Education, application,
installation = experience
Nice one 👍 I think the retrofit of ASHP is very much more challenging than the blank canvas of a new build. This technology lends itself (and thrives) in super insulated homes and with underfloor heating. Not saying it cannot be retrofitted, just that super insulating older homes may be difficult or nigh on impossible and getting flow rates right for the low ‘Delta T’ could be tricky to the point of expensive - especially on wet systems installed with micro bore piping.
A very knowledgeable guy. Yet again, another great video. 👍👍
Thank you very much for the explanation.
Imagine all houses in UK are connected to heat pumps.
How much power would consume from national grid. I do not think the grid would be capable to provide some much demand.
The compressors don't run on modulating speed. I think is fixed speed and is not cheap to run.
Second it is the installation price and parts to fix. Massive difference with boilers.
Hydrogen is the best alternative I think.
Also the mini CHP with decent batteries will be great investment
The inverter type ones can change the speed of the compressor.
Theu xan be cheaper to run if installed well.. as per the video
Yeah you’d have to invest into the grid a bit, it’s hardly an impossible task
@@HeatGeek I install them myself, mainly in new builds and with UF heating, but often get calls to retrofit existing systems with boilers to HPs. Even with newer models, like the one shown in the video (advertised as an alternative to a gas boiler in a retrofit) , it simply doesn't perform as claimed by the manufacturers because of poor insulation and microbore pipe work in existing houses.
And I would add that the existing grid does not have the capacity to support such a large number of HPs. In winter at peak consumption hours they would all underperform or start throwing error codes.
Also, keep in mind that at lower temperatures (under 5 C) a 12kW HP only has an output of about 8-9 kW and has to rely on electric heating elements to compensate, lowering the COP by a significant amount.
Also given the fact that they are substantially more expensive than a gas boiler and adding the cost of oversizing the radiators and the pipework, i just don't think HPs are an alternative to gas boilers.
Great video and very knowledgeable. But I feel heat pumps will never take of fully. 30 million homes in the UK. The last 20+ years, new builds have installed 10mm pipe to rads. Many older builds have 8mm pipe from manifolds to rads. Most homes aren’t insulated enough for heat pumps to be efficient enough. The cost of heat pumps and altering a house to meet the spec would cost £20,000 plus. By the time you get through a quarter of UK homes, an alternative to heat pumps will be here.
I agree great comment
Whats the typical sizes of upstairs radiator pipes used for an ashp in a new build?
Is the COP affected by rising electricity prices?
Cracking video Allen. Really well presented by Heat Geek. It'd be great if you had the opportunity to get some footage on any heat pump installs, which I know is easier said than done in the current climate. Heat pumps are definitely going to be more commonplace. Take care mate.
I am going to go down to London to do some more videos with them soon. Thanks.
Cracking Video, Don't know much on heatpumps - need to do some studying 👌
Thank You
Heat geek
When you say bigger pipe sizing, are you saying bigger than your standard 15mm/22mm flow /return?
Thanks
Depends on the load but most likely yes!
Really, so within a domestic propertys are you more likely to have 28mm flow/return?
Thanks
@@HeatGeek So what are we talking about in a three bedroom domestic house typically. Would I be correct in saying this type of system is impractical in older brick built buildings.
Great video as normal Allen
Great video. One question I have is about COP. If 1Kw of electricity is used by the compressor to get a COP of say 4. That mean 3KW of heat needs to come from the evaporator. Surely on a cold day the COP will go down? Also how much electricity is the fan using blowing over the evaporator? I'm trying to get a better understanding of real efficiency here. So let me try an example if the compressor was using 3KW of electricity and the evaporator is only able to provide 1KW heat then I have a COP of 1.3. I am beginning to like the thought. Might build one myself using parts from my old fridge just to experiment...
The cop is worked of total electrical usage not just the compressor..
@@HeatGeek thanks for clarifying that.
Really great video. I've seen a lot of negativity in the UK from people from people who are stuck in their ways and don't take time to understand the bigger picture. Gas is going and hydrogen boilers are "green" but hugely inefficient when considering the huge (54%) energy losses incurred during the production of hydrogen. Good insulation and heat pumps are the future.
Thank You
The trouble is though, producing and delivering electricity often isn't very efficient, gas turbines are only around 60% efficient at best, that's why electricity is far more expensive 4 - 5 times more than gas p kwh
Good insulation works for gas or oil heating also, it matters not what the source of heat is, it is retaining the heat that matters.
There is a misunderstanding about the efficiency of heat pumps. All the calculations I've seen are based on the elctrical unit of power. However there are many losses in making and distributing electricity, when that is taken into account heat pumps don't look so good, particularly air source.
Alan,
Firstly Love your channel 👍 what’s your thoughts on the following issue I have ... I have a Air source heat pump installed in my home 5 years ago, super way to heat our home. All under floor heating downstairs and rads up stairs. We have an issue down stairs, all the rooms downstairs are on individual stats however, we have an issue in 2 rooms. If I put the stat on in call it room A, room B starts to heat. If I turn on the stat in room B only room B heats as it should. What might be the issue.. ? room A basically won’t heat but the stat does heat room B.... confused 🤷♂️
Maybe the valve is stuck? Ideally you need someone out to have a look at it. Thanks 🙏
@@AllenHart999 will do Alan just based on today's video thought you may have come across the same situation. No worries 👍
Would an installer be able to determine what the COP would be at the design stage?
Hi after looking at your very instructive video I checked my flow and return of my 10 year old condensing combi oil boiler using a k probe and a true result meter i was astonished to find my flow temperature was around 40 degrees and return about 35 degrees after the boiler was running for 30 minutes when I installed the system I done a heat loss assessment on my 70s bungalow and used nearly all of my 9 radiators being doubles perhaps I oversized the rads the house heats well I assume that my boiler is coming to the end of its usefull life and as the flow temperature is low it could work well with an ashp in my 110 sq meter insulated and double glazed bungalow
True RMS not result
Great video Adam, itching to get started on the course now 😀👌
Thank You
Hello. I am going to replace windows and add insulation. Coming from electric acumulation to air surce heat pump. If I let someone calculate my heat loss calculation for each room and then I measure each radiator in house and try to look up its kW power. How do i compare its power to room heat loss temperature? When is it power too low and it should be replaced for bigger one?
Can this be linked in with existing gas or oil boilers .
yes
Great video that
Thank You
Wonderful
Thank You
Why no mention of DHW?
Can you tell me how can I calculate how much water content is in my radiators so I can calculate if I have enough water content for an ashp
We need a cop of 3 to break even with a gas boiler - because... electricity is 3 times the cost of gas per kwh?
I've heard heat pumps don't work below - 1 and are very ineffective below that. Is this correct?
Also gas is 3p kwh and electricity is 14p kwh that's why nobody saves money by installing one, you can buy 4 kwh gas or a bit more for the same price as 1 kwh electricity.
Also when they generate electricity from gas turbines its only 60% efficient!
Closed cycle gas power plants are modern marvels!
You might not have such cheap access to gas, you might have lower cost electricity available with time of use tariffs, you might have your own generation, you can save money on servicing...
@@edc1569 but they are still only 60% efficient.
@@edc1569 Our problem with power generation and other industrial processes is that here in the UK we don't recover the lost heat and supply this lost heat to houses within the area, I believe in some other countries they do do this, if the UK is serious about the environment then this has got to be the next step.
I have double radiators, but unfortunately piping is small, and changing the piping is not a option presently. I'm on oil, would it still be worth my while to have a heat source pump? Thanks
If you've got a spare 20k to waste
@@pauldavies7251 Thanks, No ill give it a miss
Thank you for the explanation. Having watched it i can honestly say i will never go down the road of a heat pump.
You can't claim there is useable heat at zero degrees centigrade just by using a different scale of temperature measurement since 273 degrees kelvin is exactly rhe same point as zero degrees centigrade. Ie there is no heat.
Simple energy laws of P1 T1 =P2 T2 or P1V1/T1 =P2V2/T2 are energy conversion and not somehow creating energy out of thin air.
Compressing gasses will increase heat but at zero degrees centigrade (273 kelvin) there isn't much heat to drag out.
You also do not mention hysteresis losses of the compressor you claim is doing all the work.
Compressors are extremely expensive to run given the large electrical load required to run them and they will not give you five times more energy from what you put in.
To me your explanation proves this whole heat pump thing is complete tosh.
I for one will not be installing one.
I hope you don't expect a reply from these heat pump cult members as your explanation doesn't fit they're agenda,
@@pauldavies7251 It would be nice to debate heat pumps guff with the professionals
One day perhaps,.but I'm not holding my breath.
Not knowledgeable enough on domestic heat pumps to have a worthwhile opinion on their future in the UK at least but he's correct in pointing out that 0 deg C is a lot hotter than 0 K which is defined as absolute zero used in physics to define when all the atoms in a gas effectively stop moving and posses no thermal energy or heat. 0 deg C is only the freezing point of water and obviously an awful lot hotter than the effective freezing point of a gas at - 273 deg C so there's plenty of energy and hence heat available. He didn't make it very clear but there's a difference in the amount of electrical energy required to liberate a certain amount of thermal energy which is what's released when you compress a gas in a compressor forcing a fixed volume of it to change phase i.e go from a gas to a liquid. When that happens it effectively releases a fixed amount of heat, the latent heat of evaporation, that evey gas has to release in order to change back to a liquid. It's exactly the same process in reverse that allows air conditioning to work.
@@iainsmith5089 If you wanted more heat to sell ashps wouldn't it be better to use the Fahrenheit scale as there are 32 degrees fahrenheit at zero degrees centigrade.
Loads more heat to use and oodles of potential energy to be extracted.
What could possibly go wrong.
Haha love it
So basically if you put you hand on the back of your fridge and feel the heat its this process in reverse ? And renewables
are great ideas for super insulated new homes but the majority of homes in the uk with poor insulation and worn double glazing not so sure ? Example you kids come in and out the house and wait half a day for the room to become warm again ? hence lot of folk have a wood burner to boost which are also on the to ban list ,a bit like electric cars we are not quite there yet cost and efficiency.
🤩🤩🤩
I think it's time to build houses with two solid insulated floors
We all know ufh runs at far lower temeratures.
The Government needs to implement this .
How do u get more energy out, than u put in? Isn't that impossible? How can u get 3kw out for each kW u put in (COP=3)? If u can, you could take 1 of those kW u get out and feed it back in to produce an infinite amount of energy for no cost - which is plainly impossible!
Great video but most people don’t give a shit about their carbon footprint. They can barely afford their current fuel bills. Rising fuel prices are a nightmare. I’m in a 2017 very well insulated new build detached house with underfloor heating everywhere.
Our airsourse heat pump is a nightmare.
The amount of electricity to run it costs a fortune. Windows are not left open. Room thermostats are set at 21 degrees C in winter. The fan unit is noisy and creates so much cold air.
👍🤓👍
Thank You
How noisy are these fans? And is it safe around kid cause I know my kid like to put things in stuff
Will I need to become f gas register to service them?
i dont think that would heat my house not a hope in hell
I genuinely don't feel this is going to be a viable option for the majority of (older) houses in the UK; they just aren't insulated as well and will require a huge amount of investment (insulation, changing of rads and larger pipework) and even then you will probably just break even with the COP of 3-4. The only way to move to this technology is to (unfortunately) increase the price of gas until the consumer has no other option.
I live in a 120 year old house with solid walls. We have had an ASHP for 10 years running radiators and it works great, we are very pleased with it.
Sadly (not maybe not) increase gas prices are coming
Refrigeration basic principle and terminology explanation very poor and incorrect