By far the most of my Lumatone work, so far at least, has been in 31TET! (Perhaps “fun” and “experiences” would be better words than “work,” though!) I first heard about 31TET from Ivor Darreg way back in 1977, but not until I actually used it on my Lumatone did I _even _*_begin_*_ to grasp_ just how versatile, and yet easy to use and to make musical sense of, it is!
Really great to see the Dave videos continuing! If you or your audience find yourselves queasy or confused (or whatever) by subminor, neutral, or supermajor harmony, I suggest you _start_ by using them in *sevenths, ninths, elevenths, and thirteenths, rather than the thirds* . Our ears already expect these chord tones to be “spicy,” so start there! Especially importantly, try the subminor seventh (e.g., C E G A# - or what _looks like_ A#, actually it’s a B-3/4-flat). That is very close to a 4:5:6:7 frequency ratio, so that flavor of seventh is much more settled right where it is! In Common-Practice Music Theory, the tritone between the third and seventh of a dominant-seventh chord is a fundamental dissonance to be resolved to a third or sixth. However, in Blues, seventh chords are “standard fare,” and it’s no longer about resolving that tritone. (Heck, in Barbershop Quartet music, almost every chord is a seventh chord!) This 4:5:6:7 dominant seventh chord fits this “ethos” perfectly, because it sounds rich and settled - happy where it is!
What I think is even more interesting than the 31TET mapping itself is to compare the progression 12TET->19TET->31TET, in light of the Lumatone’s Bosanquet-Wilson mapping. Example: C E G Bb in comparison C E G A#. - In 12TET, the two sound exact the same. - In 19TET, the two sound very different; too different in fact: the A# is rather flat of the 7:4-ratio subminor seventh. In short, G-A# *really is* an augmented second rather than a subminor third. - In 31TET, C E G Bb and C E G A# sound not only *different* , but they sound *right* . The A# really is the B-3/4-flat needed the 4:5:6:7 frequency ratio chord.
@@suomeaboo, it’s probably fair to say that that depends upon “between” in what sense. Your observation that 12 + 19 = 31 is a curious one. It’s largely attributable to Joseph Yasser, who suggested that tuning systems tend to evolve along the lines of a sum of the previous two. More specifically: 5: pentatonics 7: diatonics 12=5+7: the currently-normal 12 19=12+7: 19TET (“19EDO”) 31=12+19… The general historical consensus is that “it’s interesting thinking, but it doesn’t really play out historically, and there are so many other possibilities that putting emphasis on these particular tunings, is largely just numerology.
@@mr88cet I was thinking about the a/b ≤ (a + c)/(b + d) ≤ c/d inequality. As an example, 12-EDO's fifth is 7\12, and 19-EDO's fifth is 11\19. The fifth in 31-EDO would be (7 + 11)\(12 + 19) = 18\31, which according to the earlier inequality, is in between 7\12 and 11\19 in terms of number of cents. This should also hold true for other intervals and other EDOs.
@@suomeaboo that's also why 41 is a good tuning; 29 is off from just almost equally but in opposite directions from 12, so taking intervals between them gives better approximations than either edo can do on their own.
5:53 - Comparing 31TET and 12TET major thirds would probably have been a clearer comparison, since 31TET’s M3 is pretty much right on Just and 12TET’s is nearly 14c sharp. For minor thirds, 12TET’s is nearly 16c flat, but 31TET’s is about 6c flat. I think what’s most interesting though, is the all-new melodic and harmonic possibilities, and that they’re so well-organized on the Lumatone. For example, C E G Bb vs. C E G A# (actually Bdb). The latter with the 3/4-flat is much more settled, whereas the former demands resolution.
@@mertatakan7591, well, the marked accidental is borrowed from quartertones, and is 3 quartertones flat. So, 3/2 of a semitone or 3/4 of a whole-tone. As applied to 31TET though, it’s 3/31 octave, or 3/5 tone.
@@mertatakan7591, indeed correct. It is 3/2 of a flat (in 12-tone terms). However, this notation is borrowed from a system called “Quartertones.” Is that a good name for it? That’s debatable, but for better or for worse that’s historically what it’s called.
Binging these videos for 2 reasons. 1, i’ve finally started composing in microtonal systems. And, 2. I’m all about that ‘dad who has seen Sonic Youth 22 times’ energy.
Another curious thing related to 31TET: Carlos “Alpha” non-octave tuning is _close to_ every other step of 31TET. Not exactly, but close: every other step of 31TET works out to ~77.42c per step, whereas Alpha is 78c per step. Somewhat similarly, 88CET is close to every third step of 41TET, and Bohlen-Pierce is close to every fifth step of 41TET.
@@seamusmckeon9109 “Cent Equal Temperament,” so the usual tuning could be called “12TET” (12EDO) or “100CET” (more likely 12TET, but just to illustrate). Using “CET” is especially useful for non-octave tunings. “88CET” is easier to make sense of than “13.6364TET.”
I experimented with music a lot on the Atari 8-bit which could not faithfully produce 12EDO. Most of the notes were kind of out of tune but I wasn't sophisticated enough to notice it at the time. But it gives a lot of the crunchy, warbely intervals in 31EDO a really familiar feeling to me.
These videos are really helpful about learning to play the lumatone. Especially useful would be if you can shows little display up above (like you did for the harmonic table video) because it’s cleaner than looking sheer your fingers are. Even still, I’m finding 31edo to be a nice tuning so far, and a bit easier to get vibes I want than in 19! Peace al
Beautiful sounds, beautiful layout, yes, but! How do you TUNE the blessed thing? Pressing a Lumatone key does not generate a pitch bend message, so, whatever comes out of the Lumatone, has to be intercepted by - - ? How does THAT work??
@@lumatone Note number and channel number: yes, thank you; I finally got it to work, with an ad hoc piece of Python code! More than one, actually. [UTE was not always catching which key I was pressing.] So I wrote myself a lengthy tutorial, illustrated, in html. Where shall I put it? 🙃
Thank you, but it‘s way too long and complex to be posted as a comment, here. Currently, it is an html file, with sound and image and python dependencies, that I have copied to a private webspace that I rent from Greengeeks, but that space, I use for certain backups, only. I would rather post the complete cluster on a forum-type website, devoted to Lumatone.
I think it's good to point out that D flat and C sharp in 31TET are simply names for the notes immediately above C. The following note is named D because its kind close ish to 12TET D. And there are 2 notes between C and "D" in 31TET, thua C sharp and D flat make reasonable names for them.
Just a question. Do you find that the background track adds something to the presentation? I find it distracting when trying to listen. Love the content! So glad this is becoming a thing!
glad in 2022 ppl like u tellin this stuff. i alr knew this but i was happy to watch again. u laid it out pretty well. id say only one thing try n use a patch that does not waver much but other then that rly great video. i especially enjoyed the 19 edo one
An interesting 31TET chord -- a variant on quartal harmony: C D# F G# Bb C# Eb F#. Basically a whole bunch of 7:6s and 8:7s. Or similarly, sorta, Bb G C D# F G#.
One issue with chords like this, however, is that it includes intervals like 32/21 between the D# and Bb, or G# and Eb, so if you wanna play chords like this without wolf fifths, superpyth temperaments like 17edo or 22edo may be for you.
@@alexr3912, the result, to my ears at least, sounds curious. It’s somewhat denser than triadic/7th/9th/etc. chords, but not so dense as to sound like a “tone cluster.”
@@mertatakan7591 of course not, but intervals like the one between D# and Bb aren’t close to any simple ratios, rather they’re close to complex ratios like 32/21. this may be the desired effect, as artists like zhea erose employ chords like these, but they may require removing higher harmonics to sound consonant in some situations
do you think the mircotone make the chord progression less abstract, l mean the illusion of the music seems like more stright, cuz the note become more specific，the emotion more stright.
What a strange system of concepts the musicians seem to have created for themselves. To me, as a former physicist with no musical education, music theory made no sense even though I did make some attempts to understand it. And then I discovered the microtonal music theory which explained everything in an understandable way, with what I call "normal human math". And a good example of that weirdness that I see is in the explanation of what just intonation is in this video. To me, the simplest explanation is that in JI rational fractions instead of a logarithmic scale are used to describe the frequency relations between the notes. Instead, what is valiantly presented here is ""In a nutshell, in JI when you strike any key, it produces a series of harmonic overtones, all of which are notes that are in the same key of that fundamental note you struck". I can understand it in hindsight, after having familiarized myself with the way more general music theory that the microtonality-related sources provide, but if this were the only definition I had, I would probably still be doubting what JI is...
Side note: could you please discard the stupid background music during your demonstration? Totally distracting even when muted during your played notes. I think even younger kids should be able to follow your highly interesting demo without permanently being subjected to background muzak. Keep up the good work :-)
The supermajor chord sound so wistful in this context (10:52), the deep melancholic, but somehow beautiful, nostalgic longing for home...
It has a perfect 3rd and 7th. I looooooove this.
3rd and 7th have qualities, they are not perfect
@@mertatakan7591I don't think they meant perfect as in perfect fifth. They probably meant perfect as in "really nice"
@@mertatakan7591 7edo enters the chat
By far the most of my Lumatone work, so far at least, has been in 31TET! (Perhaps “fun” and “experiences” would be better words than “work,” though!)
I first heard about 31TET from Ivor Darreg way back in 1977, but not until I actually used it on my Lumatone did I _even _*_begin_*_ to grasp_ just how versatile, and yet easy to use and to make musical sense of, it is!
Really great to see the Dave videos continuing!
If you or your audience find yourselves queasy or confused (or whatever) by subminor, neutral, or supermajor harmony, I suggest you _start_ by using them in *sevenths, ninths, elevenths, and thirteenths, rather than the thirds* . Our ears already expect these chord tones to be “spicy,” so start there!
Especially importantly, try the subminor seventh (e.g., C E G A# - or what _looks like_ A#, actually it’s a B-3/4-flat). That is very close to a 4:5:6:7 frequency ratio, so that flavor of seventh is much more settled right where it is!
In Common-Practice Music Theory, the tritone between the third and seventh of a dominant-seventh chord is a fundamental dissonance to be resolved to a third or sixth. However, in Blues, seventh chords are “standard fare,” and it’s no longer about resolving that tritone. (Heck, in Barbershop Quartet music, almost every chord is a seventh chord!) This 4:5:6:7 dominant seventh chord fits this “ethos” perfectly, because it sounds rich and settled - happy where it is!
I am so obsessed with these sounds… it hits me on a deep heart & soul level that I’m unused to
What I think is even more interesting than the 31TET mapping itself is to compare the progression 12TET->19TET->31TET, in light of the Lumatone’s Bosanquet-Wilson mapping.
Example: C E G Bb in comparison C E G A#.
- In 12TET, the two sound exact the same.
- In 19TET, the two sound very different; too different in fact: the A# is rather flat of the 7:4-ratio subminor seventh. In short, G-A# *really is* an augmented second rather than a subminor third.
- In 31TET, C E G Bb and C E G A# sound not only *different* , but they sound *right* . The A# really is the B-3/4-flat needed the 4:5:6:7 frequency ratio chord.
This makes me wonder, given a certain interval mapping in a-EDO and b-EDO, does the interval mapping in (a + b)-EDO always lie somewhere in between?
@@suomeaboo, it’s probably fair to say that that depends upon “between” in what sense.
Your observation that 12 + 19 = 31 is a curious one. It’s largely attributable to Joseph Yasser, who suggested that tuning systems tend to evolve along the lines of a sum of the previous two. More specifically:
5: pentatonics
7: diatonics
12=5+7: the currently-normal 12
19=12+7: 19TET (“19EDO”)
31=12+19…
The general historical consensus is that “it’s interesting thinking, but it doesn’t really play out historically, and there are so many other possibilities that putting emphasis on these particular tunings, is largely just numerology.
@@mr88cet I was thinking about the a/b ≤ (a + c)/(b + d) ≤ c/d inequality. As an example, 12-EDO's fifth is 7\12, and 19-EDO's fifth is 11\19. The fifth in 31-EDO would be (7 + 11)\(12 + 19) = 18\31, which according to the earlier inequality, is in between 7\12 and 11\19 in terms of number of cents. This should also hold true for other intervals and other EDOs.
@@suomeaboo, ah, I see. In that sense, that’s reasonable.
@@suomeaboo that's also why 41 is a good tuning; 29 is off from just almost equally but in opposite directions from 12, so taking intervals between them gives better approximations than either edo can do on their own.
Oh my gosh I love 31-EDO. So resonant and beautiful. And he is such a talented musician - great piece at the end
Really great video and gorgeous little piece at the end of the video. Thanks Dave.
5:53 - Comparing 31TET and 12TET major thirds would probably have been a clearer comparison, since 31TET’s M3 is pretty much right on Just and 12TET’s is nearly 14c sharp. For minor thirds, 12TET’s is nearly 16c flat, but 31TET’s is about 6c flat.
I think what’s most interesting though, is the all-new melodic and harmonic possibilities, and that they’re so well-organized on the Lumatone. For example, C E G Bb vs. C E G A# (actually Bdb). The latter with the 3/4-flat is much more settled, whereas the former demands resolution.
3/2 flat not 3/4 flat
@@mertatakan7591, well, the marked accidental is borrowed from quartertones, and is 3 quartertones flat. So, 3/2 of a semitone or 3/4 of a whole-tone.
As applied to 31TET though, it’s 3/31 octave, or 3/5 tone.
@@mr88cet A flat is 1 semitone so 1 semitone is a flat and 3/2 semitones is 3/2 flats
@@mertatakan7591, indeed correct. It is 3/2 of a flat (in 12-tone terms).
However, this notation is borrowed from a system called “Quartertones.” Is that a good name for it? That’s debatable, but for better or for worse that’s historically what it’s called.
@@mr88cet It's 3/2 of a flat => It's 3/2 flats.
Case closed.
Why is the link never in the description when they say it is? *sigh*
"31-EDO basics" thats a nice oxymoron
it's not that complicated actually 😊
@@florida_sucks one year later, i agree mostly
@@florida_sucksYeah, it's my favorite now
Binging these videos for 2 reasons. 1, i’ve finally started composing in microtonal systems. And, 2. I’m all about that ‘dad who has seen Sonic Youth 22 times’ energy.
Nevermind trying to figure out this instrument I spent most of the video trying to decipher this guy's hair.
Another curious thing related to 31TET: Carlos “Alpha” non-octave tuning is _close to_ every other step of 31TET. Not exactly, but close: every other step of 31TET works out to ~77.42c per step, whereas Alpha is 78c per step.
Somewhat similarly, 88CET is close to every third step of 41TET, and Bohlen-Pierce is close to every fifth step of 41TET.
What is CET?
@@seamusmckeon9109 “Cent Equal Temperament,” so the usual tuning could be called “12TET” (12EDO) or “100CET” (more likely 12TET, but just to illustrate).
Using “CET” is especially useful for non-octave tunings. “88CET” is easier to make sense of than “13.6364TET.”
3:04 It is not linked in the description!!
I really wanna learn that progression at the end.
same
I experimented with music a lot on the Atari 8-bit which could not faithfully produce 12EDO. Most of the notes were kind of out of tune but I wasn't sophisticated enough to notice it at the time. But it gives a lot of the crunchy, warbely intervals in 31EDO a really familiar feeling to me.
"...gives us these 31 notes"
Simply Piano ad: *starts*
Ah yes, the 31 notes of the Hungarian Dance
These videos are really helpful about learning to play the lumatone. Especially useful would be if you can shows little display up above (like you did for the harmonic table video) because it’s cleaner than looking sheer your fingers are. Even still, I’m finding 31edo to be a nice tuning so far, and a bit easier to get vibes I want than in 19! Peace al
Beautiful sounds, beautiful layout, yes, but! How do you TUNE the blessed thing?
Pressing a Lumatone key does not generate a pitch bend message, so,
whatever comes out of the Lumatone, has to be intercepted by - - ? How does THAT work??
For now it uses Midi Note Numbers, which is then read by a virtual instrument or synth, which is where you do the tuning.
@@lumatone Note number and channel number: yes,
thank you; I finally got it to work, with an ad hoc piece of Python code!
More than one, actually. [UTE was not always catching which key I was pressing.]
So I wrote myself a lengthy tutorial, illustrated, in html. Where shall I put it? 🙃
@@franciscooyarzun2637 please post this here
Thank you, but it‘s way too long and complex to be posted as a comment, here.
Currently, it is an html file, with sound and image and python dependencies, that I have copied
to a private webspace that I rent from Greengeeks, but that space, I use for certain backups,
only. I would rather post the complete cluster on a forum-type website, devoted to Lumatone.
I think it's good to point out that D flat and C sharp in 31TET are simply names for the notes immediately above C. The following note is named D because its kind close ish to 12TET D. And there are 2 notes between C and "D" in 31TET, thua C sharp and D flat make reasonable names for them.
There are 4 notes between C and D. They're named C+ C# Db Dd or Dbb C# Db Cx.
Just a question. Do you find that the background track adds something to the presentation? I find it distracting when trying to listen. Love the content! So glad this is becoming a thing!
glad in 2022 ppl like u tellin this stuff. i alr knew this but i was happy to watch again. u laid it out pretty well. id say only one thing try n use a patch that does not waver much but other then that rly great video. i especially enjoyed the 19 edo one
An interesting 31TET chord -- a variant on quartal harmony: C D# F G# Bb C# Eb F#. Basically a whole bunch of 7:6s and 8:7s.
Or similarly, sorta, Bb G C D# F G#.
One issue with chords like this, however, is that it includes intervals like 32/21 between the D# and Bb, or G# and Eb, so if you wanna play chords like this without wolf fifths, superpyth temperaments like 17edo or 22edo may be for you.
@@alexr3912, the result, to my ears at least, sounds curious. It’s somewhat denser than triadic/7th/9th/etc. chords, but not so dense as to sound like a “tone cluster.”
@@alexr3912Both of you are wrong cos none of these ratios are exact
@@alexr3912 not an issue
@@mertatakan7591 of course not, but intervals like the one between D# and Bb aren’t close to any simple ratios, rather they’re close to complex ratios like 32/21. this may be the desired effect, as artists like zhea erose employ chords like these, but they may require removing higher harmonics to sound consonant in some situations
I LOVE 31-EDO, I just uploaded a short 2 days ago where I played song in 31-EDO. I still kinda suck at this instrument, but check it out lol!
Pretty cool thanks. can we do 24 tet next?
Damn! That's a lot of notes :)))
do you think the mircotone make the chord progression less abstract, l mean the illusion of the music seems like more stright, cuz the note become more specific，the emotion more stright.
Why is there no episode 14?
It is but they forgot to add.
@@OfficialGarioChannel There is*
@@mertatakan7591 don't judge my grammar because I am Korean.
Sorry but it doesn't help that you are using a sound with slight pitch warping in your demonstration.
What a strange system of concepts the musicians seem to have created for themselves. To me, as a former physicist with no musical education, music theory made no sense even though I did make some attempts to understand it.
And then I discovered the microtonal music theory which explained everything in an understandable way, with what I call "normal human math".
And a good example of that weirdness that I see is in the explanation of what just intonation is in this video. To me, the simplest explanation is that in JI rational fractions instead of a logarithmic scale are used to describe the frequency relations between the notes. Instead, what is valiantly presented here is ""In a nutshell, in JI when you strike any key, it produces a series of harmonic overtones, all of which are notes that are in the same key of that fundamental note you struck". I can understand it in hindsight, after having familiarized myself with the way more general music theory that the microtonality-related sources provide, but if this were the only definition I had, I would probably still be doubting what JI is...
These differences don't seem subtle to me
It's a wig! It's a wig!
Side note: could you please discard the stupid background music during your demonstration? Totally distracting even when muted during your played notes. I think even younger kids should be able to follow your highly interesting demo without permanently being subjected to background muzak.
Keep up the good work :-)
It's literally not there, stop bitching about nothing
Please drop that annoying background muzak.
i thought this was asmongold
31edo sound out of tune in a good way.
sounds, not sound
“C# & Db are the same note!”
Well yes, but actually no.
I think he is missing the point entirely.
Sooooooooooo much yapping and so little playing the instrument.
The Lumaone Keyboard channel has several videos of full pieces of music played in 31 EDO.
@@georgegividen, indeed! Just play!