The pianist that i can think of that plays down low is Erroll Garner and hes not gentle about it at all lol. Sometimes it even sounds like he's drowning out the bass player...so you are absolutely right.
I used to be told that the bottom 1/3 of the piano is the bass's house. I still think that's true, but if you're polite, you can visit his house to pay your compliments! If you play in the bottom 3rd, I think you just need to make sure that what you're doing complements the bass and doesn't interfere with it. Some bass players actually really like the support and it can make for a full sound, but if you're stepping on the bass player (like trying to walk at the same time as the bass player) that could get very annoying. I think it's important to let the bass player set the feel and time and you're just there to fill it out.
I think the rest of the piano is habitat for the keys player! There are few instruments that get so high. I do think though that sometimes the piano sounds a little thin in that register. It's still useful for octaves and block chords and color, but I think the middle third is where you get the bread n' butter sound. Mantooth has his 'rule of thumb' for determining the 'optimal' register for rich comping where he says the right hand thumb should be within c4 and c5; that kind of puts your chords in the tenor/alto range.
Reply to another guitarist in the comments that should be more visible: Playing chords with roots is NOT the same as playing lush chords all the time--I say that as a guitarist who is currently studying with another guitarist and former bandmate of Barry Harris. Strong personality is not why Barry could get away with playing as he did. Do you know what gets in the way when you comp? POOR RHYTHM and poor pulse. Rubato type comping with the fingers--you know what I am saying? Forget trying to play all the fancy closed voicing piano chords on guitar--if you can't play it in time, pay it no mind. I play Root 3 7 and Root 3 6 chords A LOT and no one complains because the rhythm is the priority. Another reason you maybe running "into the mud" is because you are not taking the context of your venue and band into account when you EQ your sound. Too many guitarists think that they gotta roll off ALL THE TREBLE to sound jazz... I blame Pat Metheny for that. He's a great musician, but that sound worked for him and his band--it's not a default "jazz guitar" sound. Wes wouldn't get the pop with his thumb if all the treble was turned down. Jim Hall was NOT as dark sounding as we think, especially on those landmark earlier recordings we all know. If you EQ correctly, you should be able to play at least as low as the G on your low E with no problems. All the guitarists and pianists I've studied with taught me that--and I got a long list of notables too. Shan is the real deal thank you meal. Who else played with ALL the greats before he opened up his mouth and starting teaching other than BARRY HARRIS? If we had more teachers like that, jazz ed would be in a FAR better place, my friend.
Peter Bernstein - “give me a guitarist who can play shell voicings with good time and I’ll hire them… “ Not a man afraid of playing a fat root note low on the guitar.
According to what I've learned, it depends on the context. As a guitar player I learn every song with full chords, rootless or reduced chords, melody only or chord melody. A story of one of my teachers. When he got his first job in band, he played very proudly those beautiful full chords. The bass player got angry because he came in his way and my teacher got fired. It's very logical that if there is a bass player it can sound very weird if the piano/guitar and bass play in the same region. Barry said that no bass player ever complained to him about that, but I think that's more because of his strong personality than anything else. Likewise, if there is another chord instrument with an accompanying role, say a piano and guitar, the same problem arises. Yes, if everything is prearranged and written out, like in a big band, the result can be good, but otherwise the only way to achieve a nice musical result is to agree very clearly in advance who is going to do what. And if you play solo, it's definitely advisable to layout the full harmony, and not to use rootless chords. When I use chords in this comment, it also applies to playing more counterpoint oriented lines rather than strict block chords or arpeggios.
Barry Harris's strong personality, sure, but I think it must have been more because Harris knew how to play with other musicians in every register, including but of course not limited to bass. It's the same awareness and sensitivity that's required for comping for a singer or soloist. For playing with bass, it's largely a matter of knowing what notes the pianist can leave for the bass player, what fits in with the bass line, and as Shawn says, playing gently. With singers and soloists it comes down to not doubling their important melody notes (bass players need to understand this too, as doubling those notes almost always weakens the melody) and, as with bass, being light-handed or at least sensitive on those piano keys which are in their register. I've found there are times when a wonderful sound can be achieved with the piano left hand exactly doubling the bass note for note, either in the same octave or the one above. When done well this creates a much wider and more complex timbre than can be achieved with either instrument alone. In my view this is best used sparingly, and it demands a greater degree of precision from both musicians as the goal is to make a sound like a single instrument. The same can be done with bass and guitar; in either case (bass and piano or bass and guitar) it's important for the two musicians to practice those lines together until they've got it down. At the end of the day it comes down to whatever serves the music and sounds great.
@@thomascordery7951 Regarding the first part of your comment: this could only work if Barry had the gift of telepathy. Otherwise there is no way to guess exactly what the bass is going to do the next split of a second, if piano and bass have the freedom of note choice.
Playing chords with roots is NOT the same as playing those lush chords--I say that as a guitarist who is currently studying with another guitarist and former bandmate of Barry Harris. Strong personality is not why Barry could get away with playing as he did. Do you know what gets in the way when you comp? POOR RHYTHM and poor pulse. Rubato type comping with the fingers--you know what I am saying? Forget trying to play all the fancy closed voicing piano chords on guitar--if you can't play it in time, pay it no mind. I play Root 3 7 and Root 3 6 chords A LOT and no one complains because the rhythm is the priority. Another reason you maybe running "into the mud" is because you are not taking the context of your venue and band into account when you EQ your sound. Too many guitarists think that they gotta roll off ALL THE TREBLE to sound jazz... I blame Pat Metheny for that. He's a great musician, but that sound worked for him and his band--it's not a default "jazz guitar" sound. Wes wouldn't get the pop with his thumb if all the treble was turned down. Jim Hall was NOT as dark sounding as we think, especially on those landmark earlier recordings we all know. All the guitarists and pianists I've studied with taught me that--and I got a long list of notables too. Shan is the real deal thank you meal. Who else played with ALL the greats before he opened up his mouth and starting teaching other than BARRY HARRIS? If we had more teachers like that, jazz ed would be in a FAR better place, my friend.
I think playiong toward the bottom has to do with whether or not you are playing with a bass player. The same applies to rootless voicings. The idea is to leave space for the bass player.
I've heard and seen all 3. Particularly people who say the bass player will have words if you play in "their" register. Even with more "modern" (in Jazz its all relative :) )players not true, Horace Silver and McCoy Tyner loved those rhythmic rumbles down low and quite often at some volume. If you're not going to use them might as well take a saw to your piano and cut it in half (or lop of the bottom and top thirds). Might be handy if you've got a small room or have to carry your keyboard on public transport.... But I guess its all about listening and playing with taste. Now I'm thinking Schroeder in Charlie Brown and his pocket grand. Would be handy.
Polka Dots and Moonbeams
The pianist that i can think of that plays down low is Erroll Garner and hes not gentle about it at all lol. Sometimes it even sounds like he's drowning out the bass player...so you are absolutely right.
I used to be told that the bottom 1/3 of the piano is the bass's house. I still think that's true, but if you're polite, you can visit his house to pay your compliments! If you play in the bottom 3rd, I think you just need to make sure that what you're doing complements the bass and doesn't interfere with it. Some bass players actually really like the support and it can make for a full sound, but if you're stepping on the bass player (like trying to walk at the same time as the bass player) that could get very annoying. I think it's important to let the bass player set the feel and time and you're just there to fill it out.
I think the rest of the piano is habitat for the keys player! There are few instruments that get so high. I do think though that sometimes the piano sounds a little thin in that register. It's still useful for octaves and block chords and color, but I think the middle third is where you get the bread n' butter sound.
Mantooth has his 'rule of thumb' for determining the 'optimal' register for rich comping where he says the right hand thumb should be within c4 and c5; that kind of puts your chords in the tenor/alto range.
Reply to another guitarist in the comments that should be more visible: Playing chords with roots is NOT the same as playing lush chords all the time--I say that as a guitarist who is currently studying with another guitarist and former bandmate of Barry Harris. Strong personality is not why Barry could get away with playing as he did. Do you know what gets in the way when you comp?
POOR RHYTHM and poor pulse. Rubato type comping with the fingers--you know what I am saying? Forget trying to play all the fancy closed voicing piano chords on guitar--if you can't play it in time, pay it no mind. I play Root 3 7 and Root 3 6 chords A LOT and no one complains because the rhythm is the priority.
Another reason you maybe running "into the mud" is because you are not taking the context of your venue and band into account when you EQ your sound. Too many guitarists think that they gotta roll off ALL THE TREBLE to sound jazz... I blame Pat Metheny for that. He's a great musician, but that sound worked for him and his band--it's not a default "jazz guitar" sound. Wes wouldn't get the pop with his thumb if all the treble was turned down. Jim Hall was NOT as dark sounding as we think, especially on those landmark earlier recordings we all know. If you EQ correctly, you should be able to play at least as low as the G on your low E with no problems.
All the guitarists and pianists I've studied with taught me that--and I got a long list of notables too. Shan is the real deal thank you meal. Who else played with ALL the greats before he opened up his mouth and starting teaching other than BARRY HARRIS? If we had more teachers like that, jazz ed would be in a FAR better place, my friend.
Polka dots and moon booms. I’m still on the fluency path but enjoying the additional content!
Excellent!
Polkadots and moonbeams
Peter Bernstein - “give me a guitarist who can play shell voicings with good time and I’ll hire them… “ Not a man afraid of playing a fat root note low on the guitar.
Polka dudes.
…I beg your pardon…
Thanks Shan.
Much appreciation.
More Barry insights please.
Thank you,Maestro Shan⭐🌹⭐ Polkadots and Moonbeams.
Awesome!
According to what I've learned, it depends on the context. As a guitar player I learn every song with full chords, rootless or reduced chords, melody only or chord melody. A story of one of my teachers. When he got his first job in band, he played very proudly those beautiful full chords. The bass player got angry because he came in his way and my teacher got fired. It's very logical that if there is a bass player it can sound very weird if the piano/guitar and bass play in the same region. Barry said that no bass player ever complained to him about that, but I think that's more because of his strong personality than anything else. Likewise, if there is another chord instrument with an accompanying role, say a piano and guitar, the same problem arises. Yes, if everything is prearranged and written out, like in a big band, the result can be good, but otherwise the only way to achieve a nice musical result is to agree very clearly in advance who is going to do what. And if you play solo, it's definitely advisable to layout the full harmony, and not to use rootless chords. When I use chords in this comment, it also applies to playing more counterpoint oriented lines rather than strict block chords or arpeggios.
Barry Harris's strong personality, sure, but I think it must have been more because Harris knew how to play with other musicians in every register, including but of course not limited to bass. It's the same awareness and sensitivity that's required for comping for a singer or soloist.
For playing with bass, it's largely a matter of knowing what notes the pianist can leave for the bass player, what fits in with the bass line, and as Shawn says, playing gently.
With singers and soloists it comes down to not doubling their important melody notes (bass players need to understand this too, as doubling those notes almost always weakens the melody) and, as with bass, being light-handed or at least sensitive on those piano keys which are in their register.
I've found there are times when a wonderful sound can be achieved with the piano left hand exactly doubling the bass note for note, either in the same octave or the one above. When done well this creates a much wider and more complex timbre than can be achieved with either instrument alone. In my view this is best used sparingly, and it demands a greater degree of precision from both musicians as the goal is to make a sound like a single instrument. The same can be done with bass and guitar; in either case (bass and piano or bass and guitar) it's important for the two musicians to practice those lines together until they've got it down.
At the end of the day it comes down to whatever serves the music and sounds great.
@@thomascordery7951 Regarding the first part of your comment: this could only work if Barry had the gift of telepathy. Otherwise there is no way to guess exactly what the bass is going to do the next split of a second, if piano and bass have the freedom of note choice.
Playing chords with roots is NOT the same as playing those lush chords--I say that as a guitarist who is currently studying with another guitarist and former bandmate of Barry Harris. Strong personality is not why Barry could get away with playing as he did. Do you know what gets in the way when you comp?
POOR RHYTHM and poor pulse. Rubato type comping with the fingers--you know what I am saying? Forget trying to play all the fancy closed voicing piano chords on guitar--if you can't play it in time, pay it no mind. I play Root 3 7 and Root 3 6 chords A LOT and no one complains because the rhythm is the priority.
Another reason you maybe running "into the mud" is because you are not taking the context of your venue and band into account when you EQ your sound. Too many guitarists think that they gotta roll off ALL THE TREBLE to sound jazz... I blame Pat Metheny for that. He's a great musician, but that sound worked for him and his band--it's not a default "jazz guitar" sound. Wes wouldn't get the pop with his thumb if all the treble was turned down. Jim Hall was NOT as dark sounding as we think, especially on those landmark earlier recordings we all know.
All the guitarists and pianists I've studied with taught me that--and I got a long list of notables too. Shan is the real deal thank you meal. Who else played with ALL the greats before he opened up his mouth and starting teaching other than BARRY HARRIS? If we had more teachers like that, jazz ed would be in a FAR better place, my friend.
I think playiong toward the bottom has to do with whether or not you are playing with a bass player. The same applies to rootless voicings. The idea is to leave space for the bass player.
All about a teenage dream 😂😂😂
Hi Shan. Do you still do face to face lessons?
I haven't been able to take new ones. My main focus these days is Jazz Skills.
I've heard and seen all 3. Particularly people who say the bass player will have words if you play in "their" register. Even with more "modern" (in Jazz its all relative :) )players not true, Horace Silver and McCoy Tyner loved those rhythmic rumbles down low and quite often at some volume. If you're not going to use them might as well take a saw to your piano and cut it in half (or lop of the bottom and top thirds). Might be handy if you've got a small room or have to carry your keyboard on public transport.... But I guess its all about listening and playing with taste. Now I'm thinking Schroeder in Charlie Brown and his pocket grand. Would be handy.
Oh, enough with Barry Harris!
That's like a student of literature saying enough with Shakespeare.
🤦♀️ You do know what method this podcast is teaching right? No? 😂
@@Stewartaj2010 Students of literature have often said that, which is why there are radical departures and new styles like Joyce or what have you