Brazing Is For Cavemen. THIS Is The Future Of HVAC Copper Connections. -RLS Crimping Tool-
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- Опубликовано: 10 май 2024
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The crimp tool you mentioned is not on your Amazon list.
By the time you got that first pipe cut...I'd be done 🤣
I doubt those o-rings will last and possibly contaminate the freon over time.
@@guytech7310 same comment we got about sharkbites from plumbers 15 years ago. Mine are still holding strong. Meanwhile I've replaced at least 10 leaking brazed joints from "professionals"
@@googleuser4434 LOL! I know lots of people with sharkbite failures. Lots!
After almost 30 years in HVAC and plumbing, I can tell you never to rely on o-rings. They break down. You will eventually have leaks
Time will tell :) I think it done properly they should last a very long time
Isn’t there more to the switch away from soldered joints? I thought lead contamination and the suspected cancer was the driving factor in moving away from soldered joints?
It will last but man , once the rubber material starts to reach its degradation point , they will all start leaking like taco bell on a bad day. Would much rather braze or silver solder. Refrigerants are hot , high pressure , fluorinated/ chlorinated and can be aggressive on seals
Absolutely but the industry relies on repairs and selling new equipment. If things last too long, where's the money in that. Hence the reason they don't make things like they used to. It's bullshit.
@@garyszewc3339 first off lead is a toxic metal and it seems that it’s use has cut in many products , things with lead end up in the dump or buried where cause environmental problems
Been doing HVAC for 20 years and after watching that video I would say that seems like more trouble then it's worth in most applications.
Why do you say that? I’d love to get some feedback. I’m not completely swapping to this but in some circumstances I’ll definitely be using it.
How would you add in the required filter drier?
They make ever kind of fitting imaginable for zoomlock, including no hub filter driers, sight glasses, etc.
@petersmart1999 that is a Goodman and the filter dryer is installed at the factory inside the machine.
I'm all for new stuff, but I agree this is more trouble than it's worth. I'm not even that good but could have soldered this up in half the time. Another thing to consider is what happens when something leaks? I could re-solder and be done with it and with this machine I could be looking at a leak right up against the valve and then look at the mess that would be. I would try to solder the joint with the o-ring in it sacrificing the ring and hoping the solder would fix the leak. It just looks like more trouble than it's worth, especially with the cost of the tools. I'm 71 so you can imagine what I'm thinking soldering a couple of joints in 15 minutes.
Brazing is an art, most satisfying part of the job.
Looks a lot better and more professional also.
Yeah, this is for the Sharkbite crowd, lol.
Ik right, I wonder how these hold up to vibrations and time like 30 years, brazing would for sure. When all the refrigerant runs out and they ban or run the cost up...
@@publicmail2 exactly
Absolutely tight
Finally got it up and running. The only delays we had was because we realized we needed some extra parts (I’ll list that below) ruclips.net/user/postUgkxihMYiJNXcHdbH-7ihymsLz61l7jVyb5O . So we have a loft where our current hvac just couldn’t seem to keep cool during the summer. We have been using a window unit since we bought this house over 6 years ago (all the houses in this neighborhood were built in the 80’s and majority of the houses built like ours use a window unit). I hate window units because they are just so noisy and the one we had really only cools one side of the loft. I had contemplated upgrading our current HVAC, but with all the rising prices these days, it would take years before saving up enough to do that. With the advice of my father-in-law (used to run an HVAC business), he recommended we get an inverter instead. We thought we bought everything we needed, but there were just a few other parts we didn’t anticipate needing (which is what caused most of our delay). My friend and father-in-law did all the work to get it installed and running and now we have nice cool air circulating nicely throughout the entire loft. It is very quiet and even the outside unit is much quieter than our main HVAC unit. Saved ourselves thousands getting this.
As an HVAC guy myself, I could see this being useful in certain situations where using a torch might not be an issue. But for just normal everyday line connection, I think I will stick with a torch.
You are 110% right. I am DYIer and will never use these new fittings which are a rip off.
not only that but the price of the fittings! if you press it and its leaking you can't re heat and let the braze flow, you have to cut and restart. fuuuck that. and the tool itself is over a grand
@@1theheightofparadise Yep. I agree.
For the places where a torch could be an issue, why not use a Ridgid RT-175 pipe soldering gun? No flame and the joint is heated as fast as using a torch.
same
I started working in the plumbing and heating field in 1971. In the summer of 1989 an employee contacted me. Bob told me they could not solder the gas side connection at the condensing unit. I told him I could do it in less than a minute and that the drive of about 25 minutes was a waste of my time. I asked if he wanted to bet me (I could silver solder an "unsolder able" connection in less than a minute. He would not bet me. I did it in less than one minute. Soldering is a piece of cake. No need for anything else. Just get proficient at it and you will be just fine.
^ are you referring to a StayBrite or similar? this is strong enough for long-term? MAPP gas? ty
I have worked in the hvac industry for 25+ years and I would not recommend using press fittings for refrigeration work you are going to have leaks down the road even if you pass a pressure test during installation I have used press fittings for chilled water and heating water systems and make fittings for gas work also . I would be real careful using that for refrigeration work. I don’t think a building inspector would pass that job here in North country
Well I just had this job inspected here in Salt Lake City, as they were remodeling their whole basement and had to have a permit pulled. Passed no problem. Only time will tell. But I say don’t knock it until it has been disproven. And that hasn’t happened yet. Cheers
That looks like a different compression style system, not your typical pro-press with O-rings! Oils and acids would eat away O-rings with generic water compression fittings. That system looks like it's designed for gas, compressing copper on copper creating an internal flare in the middle of the crimp. I'd use it!
It all comes down to the manufacturers recommended applications and the appropriate fittings are used. My concern with this video is whether or not the appliance manufacturer allows a crimp/o-ring style fitting directly onto the suction port. Even if the fitting and crimp tool is rated and approved for the installation, the appliance may not.
@@ronlovell5374 yeah the typical “pro-press” jaws make more of a hexagonal crimp which distorts the natural roundness of the tubing
I saw the thumbnail and clicked to watched, I thought there was a new invention for HVAC piping, when I saw that it was propress I was like “oh, wow!”.
I agree with you, I wouldn’t recommend propress for HVAC systems.
I’m an industrial pipefitter and I cant tell you how many of those things I have had to cut out and solder standard copper fittings back because the pipe froze and the fitting got pushed off because of the pressure of the expansion of the ice .
Facts only for temp repairs
@@tysonrojas5477 please explain
@@robertpatterson3406expansion and contraction please study more
Some things look good on paper.
Others look good on paper as well as the real material.
And then yet others look good on everything until they get out in the real world and imperfect conditions.
As opposed to the pipe splitting when it freezes?
Staybrite solder with 5 to 8 percent silver works fantastic. No need for nitrogen purge as temps are lower than 700 degrees. Can use a hand held propane fuel torch so no dragging around an oxi/acetylene rig. As far as pressure holding ability, that's not ever going to see anywhere near its capability so no worries there.
I can see possibly using the crimp fittings in some situations but for line set hookups, I will stay with the Staybrite
Reminds me of space shuttle solid rocket booster O-rings. Remember the demo during congress Challenger investigation committee of clamped O-ring in ice water.
Thank you for creating future work for us HVAC professionals! Even though I would NEVER use those, I hope thousands of people do. 😂
Agree. Ruined the King valve by cutting it up. Next professional that comes out to fix this mess of an install will be saying some choice words!
🎉🎉🎉🎉 lmfao
Lol!
Yes install that, and leave my sticker for repair😂🤣😂
The amount of leaks that will have one day is going to be insane lol. Gotta love it when you see an installer use them on a massive commercial system with a like set so long you can’t even imagine, and the line set is run through multiple floors/ceilings.
I can see where that would be another ball game. Worst case, these are easy to get to.
I bet they would never guarantee it not to leak for 10yrs ask and see
Good thing modern AC units only last 3 years. Just kidding...but not really.
@@GeneralChangOfDanang well could be right but much less item has better warranty than the cars these days
@@GeneralChangOfDanangMy Trane unit is 15 years old, and running. I'm worried about when I need a new one for the reason you mentioned. My neighbors new units are already failing catastrophically.
Brazing is my favorite part of every job. This looks handy for areas you can't get a torch into, but a well brazed connection is your best bet for longevity. Seals degrade over time, especially with the temperature extremes you find at the end of your line sets. Cool tool though!
Yeah, that just looks horrible… It has been a decade since I did a complete install, but it was just satisfying to see a clean, straight, properly installed system at the end of the day… I do controls (PLC/DDC) these days, and I hate walking into a closet where the dmarc is (from internet and telecom companies) as the wiring is so messy and I have to dig for connections so I can have remote access to a SCADA system…
I had RLS in my office the other day pitching it. I explained that's great for a hurry-up emergency, or for residential/refrigeration outfits. We're a commercial union shop. We don't do small residential, and it only goes up to roughly 2". I think us union-trained professional tradesmen (Caveman) will stick to best practices and leave that potential leak to other outfits without getting laughed off a job by an inspector, GC etc.
👍🏼
It isn’t called cutting or bleeding edge technology for nothing.
We use them for VRF systems. For DIY it would be a joke since the tool and heads run you about $4k.
Union trained .... is that a joke son ?
Useless lazy theives and bums
This is gonna save me so much time. I'll use it everywhere but my own house.
silver solder never fails. never!
Could have soldered 2 of them in the same time with a $20 torch.
Lots of guys are having problems with zoomlock on valves. The length of tubing after you cut off the flare is JUST shy in most cases to get a good fit. Manufacturers are working on it. Pressfit is the way to go. Never do it twice! Even with pex crimping the fittings have a little spring to them, leave the crimper on for a few seconds to allow the molecules to settle
The little grooves mostly if not entirely go away if you lubricate the tubing before bending. A little high pressure grease works ideally, however in a pinch Vaseline or even dish detergent and water work well enough.
I've used a propress(plumbing) for a years now and i love it. However press style fittings for refrigeration lines I'm not so sure about. Brazing would of required just 2 couplings not 4 and i think in the time it took to unbolt, wrap with tape and cut the hub on the service valves i would of set up nitrogen to run through while I braze. Not to mention if you mess that crimp up or have a defective fitting that leaks you have no room left to cut and add a new coupling because it's to close to valve. I'd suggest brazing at least a stub on the valves so you have that buffer
I will do the nipple sweated in on the next one but I legitimately wanted to see how long this system will be leak free. Hopefully a long time :) if one leaks you guys will be the first to know about it! Cheers
@@diyhvacguy With the amount of potential leak points on that line set you won't have to wait much..
Day and night and Carrier used to use an o ring, with a compression nut to join the suction line at their residential condensing units. They all leaked, and had to be repaired by cutting right after the o ring and brazing the line into the remaining stub on the unit.
I could have brazed all my fittings and started my vacuum in the amount of time you did 1 or 2 of those and I'm sure none of mine will leak ever. And I wouldn't have had to unscrew the service valve and flip the unit over to get the tools in place.
I’m not giving up brazing my friend. But when you are using a torch in a closet where the furnace is with about 1 feet of clearance, I’ll have mine fitted and on to the next phase. So it’s sixes. I love having options :)
@diyhvacguy I give you that it has its uses, For most of what I do right now brazing is my best option, but I'm not ruling this way out though. Thanks for the video showing this way. Keep up the good content
@@diyhvacguy sheet metal pieces make great heat shields for protecting surfaces near the torch
Brazing ?? Do u mean soldering ?
@justindrake4600 brazing is using a higher heat with silver sticks soldering is what you do for copper water lines.
Very similar technique for both I think but I'm not sure the only difference is the Heat and the type of filler material
It's great we have this for flameless job sites but induction heaters I think fulfilled that. You should grease the contact surface on the jaw and piston if you haven't already, probably make the tool last much longer.
Yea, but those suckers are expensive too. On the plus side, you can still use regular fittings for it.
Just invested into this kit myself, (Rothernberger) I’m in the UK 🇬🇧 I only install mini splits, and Mitsubishi state no flare joints allowed inside. So thought these would be ideal for areas where heat isn’t a great idea.
The fittings here have a 5 year warranty! 10 years if you complete the fitting manufacturers course on how to use tool and fitting properly. The fittings here are different they press either side of the Oring and seam solid! I have tried to brake them apart on a scrap piece but they don’t move and are solid! So I’m guessing with it being a throw away society now days, they will last about as long as the units. Time will tell if it’s a wise investment! But I sure like just pressing it together.
Clasic fantastic this stuff is not working in 30 years I have not problems with leaking in sistems which I brazzing or welding😂
I work in the HVAC/R industry. Specifically in the Commercial and Industrial applications. I use this a lot now as many sites I go to do not allow Hot Work(using open flames). These are becoming more widely used in the industry. These crimpers and fittings that are used are specifically designed for refrigerants. Do NOT confuse these with the ones used on water line as they do not crimp the same way and will leak if you try to use them on refrigerant lines.
Maybe that’s why everyone is saying they leak 🤣 wouldn’t that be funny. And a nightmare for people installing the wrong ones lol
@@diyhvacguy it tends the be the biggest cause. The other cause is they didn’t ream the pipe(inside and outside) or clean the pipe. Which causes the o rings inside to fail. Either by nicking the o ring because it wasn’t deburred well enough or at all, or because dirt and debris isn’t allowing a tight seal.
@@Nate-pc9ox Any o ring will wear out sooner or later. A properly brazed connection will outlast the life of the equipment it's connected to, and probably the next equipment it's attached to as well. The same cannot be said for o rings.
I appreciate that your customers are unwittingly telling you that they want to be a repeat customer for all the leaks that will develop over the lifespan of their equipment, all because they can't secure you a space to braze for a couple hours during an install, and I hope you bill them for their stupidity, but as a tradesman, you should know better and should make them aware of the consequences of their decisions.
If they know that and still think they'll lose too much money letting you do things right, well, that's on them then.
@@HonshuHigamori first off, get off your high horse. Second, even if a leak does occur 10-20 years down the road, those companies would rather deal with that possibility, rather than blowing up a city block because we wanted to use torches in an area that has gas mixture in the air that is 10 times more volatile than acetylene. There are areas where it is impossible to “shutdown” for a couple hours, all because is can and does take weeks to Months to get the area clear of everything to be able to braise in those locations. And braise joints due the same things. I have seen them break apart and leak after 10 years, some after 6 days that I have had to repair. Braising doesn’t mean it is the best. It’s just another part that can fail like everything else.
@@Nate-pc9oxAs I said, if your customer has weighed the pros and cons and decided that they save more money guaranteeing leaks down the road than allowing for a proper braze, then fine, thats on them. No different from car manufacturers that decide out of court settlements are cheaper than recalls or manufacturing things properly in the first place. Its just a symptom of the times.
I absolutely won't get off my high horse on this issue. O rings wear out well before the life of any equipment they serve wears out. Properly brazed linesets do not. If you have an apprentice that needs education on how to properly support and braze a lineset, I would be happy to teach them for a reasonable fee. Properly brazed linesets do not break "after six days".
If you want to do things right, you braze. If you want to "gas up" your customer and guarantee continual service calls from them to trace down leaks every couple of years, go ahead and use your o rings. Your customer made their choice, so your conscience should be clear.
Brazing is the way to go. Even if you use them here and there, you would most likely have a good amount of costly callbacks down the road. I have been doing hvac for awhile and there is already a lot of new parts etc that can fail and to add these fittings onto that may cause some serious headaches.
I think it has value in some commercial applications where using a torch is a real PITA. I work in HVAC in overhead ceilings and its a life saver if you can repair systems without taking your fire panel off line and also work in tight spaces inside of equipment cabinets that have tons of wiring and sensors that can be damaged by the torch.
Yeah I work in refrigeration, and if we’re at a hospital or airport or something, it can literally take days to get a burn permit, press is good for situations like that and very tight spaces.
However, I don’t really like the all or nothing mentality that some people have and the title portrays, pro press should be viewed as just another tool for specific work, not a complete replacement for brazing.
So it's great that you fixed the problem quickly and without needing a "burn permit", but do you go back and replace the joint with a proper brazed joint later on?
Totally agree. I work in a lot of high rises and there’s always a damn fire sprinkler head right next to the refrigerant pipes going into the air handler. Huge hassle to get the sprinkler company out, drain the floor or whole building, plug the head, RE pressurize the building. Then you braze your fittings in about 5 minutes, pressure test and then have the sprinkler company reverse everything they just did. Every time you do this it takes hours and around $1000 per sprinkler head.
As an HVAC business owner I’m looking at getting one of these just for this situation. If my guys can press the refrigerant pipes in a few minutes and save $1000 a unit this thing will pay for itself after 4 units.
Oh, and for all the naysayers out there saying just cover the sprinkler head with a cup of water; DON’T TRUST THIS. You set that head off in a multi floor condo and your looking at $100,000 in damage minimum. Know several other contractors who’ve done it.
I’m personally looking at the Milwaukee 2922-22m though.
This is super interesting. I've never seen propress for HVAC application. I'm all for new applications that would basically eliminate brazing mistakes by installers that never use nitrogen to prevent pluged up metering device.
Cool group of tools indeed. I know little of HVAC but, I do build stills for home brewing. Gonna pursue this. Thanks for sharing.
Instead of cutting the bell off of the service valves, you could have StayBrighted a stub onto the valve then crimped the RLS to that. This would have given you the full surface to connect the RLS too and the ability to braze tubing to the fitting the way the MFG intended should the need arise later on.
Yea I’ll probably do this on the next one. Thanks for the tip!
So you want to low temp a fitting so you can crimp on a fitting? Just learn to braze. Staybrite is illegal anyway.
Informative video, the plumbing folks switched over to Pro Press a few years ago. According to one of the service managers I worked with, it allowed him to hire folks without having to teach them to solder or braze- lowering the skills bar on an industry that struggles to attract and retain talent. I will say I liked using Pro Press when it was cold to save time...but man, it doesn't feel very good.
Yea, and then when it comes time to replace a compressor or reversing valve they won't know how to braze.
Pro press for water piping is ok, especially in tight areas where you can’t braze. I have been retired for 16 years, and it was being used before that.
Agree. Although the excuse of some people not wanting to teach welding, is a weak excuse as welding is really easy. I have used both, and had press fittings fail for unknown reasons while solder joints never fail for me as of yet. I could even put my whole weight on a solder joint, but would I do that with a press fitting, never. 😉
Hey my friend. Good informative vid. I totally get you are expanding your channel and getting info out to diyer"s and those who do this for a living. And it's cool to see where the craft is going. Just speaking for myself, nice to see what's out there. Obviously I wouldn't spend money myself to do my own install. Would definitely refer to old information and get it done that way. Just please don't forget about us wanna be hvac guys. We'll done bud!
Oh I won’t. I have some great stuff for you DIYers in the pipeline 😎 stay tuned
2 years ago I visited a LG training facility. I noticed that all the refrigerant lines were press fit. Now it looks like R32 will be the most common refrigerant. Because R32 is flammable, the press fit fittings make perfect sense.
Are they press fitting the compressor and reversing valves and everything else inside the condenser?
Your comment is probably the most relevant: Crimped fittings are apt for the flammable refrigerant, whereas they are not needed for non-flammable refrigerants.
EPDM O-Rings have a -40F to 300F rating so 50F to 150F condenser/evaporator temperatures are nothing for them. Braze-free fittings have a 50 years warranty but will probably last as long as the pipe itself, definitively better than soldering or brazing.
Pretty fancy stuff. Press fittings are becoming more and more common in HVAC and plumbing. Almost all the plumbers in my area have switched over to predominantly ProPress. 👍
When one of our water supply lines developed a leak, I found a plumber that uses crimp fittings instead of brazing/soldering to make the connection. My concern was that I didn't want an open flame in our house.
Do you have gas heating at your home? Or ever cook over an open flame like a gas stove top? You can probably see where I’m headed….
We used a propress brand system in a occupied medical area installing VAV boxes with Hot water heat. The only advantage was we didn't have to get burn permits every day and no torches were used in the ceilings. We had to mark every joint visually because there were typically 6 to 12 presses per VAV box and we installed over 500 boxes. Even doing that the guys missed several presses which we found when testing with air. It has its place but the press and fittings are expensive, but I wouldn't even think of using it on refrigeration lines. Good Luck!
By time you do all that I’ll have the whole condenser done and ready to go working on air handler
This was a tutorial not a speed test silly
@@diyhvacguy no I know this, just messing with you man. Thought I’d give you a hard time hahaha
I would be wary of using a crimper on a brass valve body. Any overstressing of the walls of the fittings can cause mosaic fractures that are hard to see and will likely cause a leak that will only be detectable with bubble fluid or a halide detector.
Noted. Time will tell with this one.
I like to use StayBrite 8 so I don't have to use nitrogen. The fittings and crimper are nice but expensive. A lot of plumbers are using the crimp fittings on water heaters and boilers now to save installation time. Steve Lav still uses his torch and regular fittings.
I have a video on Staybrite 8 coming out next week! I love it!
According to Harris #8 is good for 410a!
@@petersmart1999 I don't recommend soldering to someone that does not know how to solder. The fittings need to be tight otherwise you are going to be dropping little balls of solder right into the system. Also, don't flux the female side and only use a sparing amount halfway to the end of the tube.
Yep, keyword. Sparingly. Great reply.😊
I encourage all ac companies to use these kind of connections. Will give me job security fixing all your leaks a few years later
Hey There Sir!
Good Luck in your RUclips HVAC journey!
I work in the HVAC Field in MI, A Lead I work with who knows everything mechanical informed me that the worm drive in the HIllmor benders can be damaged if you use the green release while under pressure. Just hold the handle slightly to remove tension then use the green release and it won't damage the mechanism and cause premature failure/ excess play.
Good to know! Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge! I really appreciate that
it is a crappy bender, i went back to the cheap ones
Honestly, it’s much easier to braze on a small stub to the air handler and condenser as soon as you unbox them, then you can crimp to your heart’s content. If you hav the filter drier that is compatible with your crimp tool… always use nitrogen when you braze'
You read my mind. That was the wrong application for a crimp connection.
This is definitely nice for someone that’s not able to braze very good but it seems like in this particular situation, it’s very time consuming.
For heavens sake, learn to freaking braze properly or pick a different trade.
If you dont know how to braze, definitely you are in the wrong trade.
What about when is a heat pump when the suction line becomes the discharge side of the compressor. Dont want to think when some want to be Service tech goes for a service call and bypasses all safeties switches. Im 100% that one of those joints will blast 💥 out like a steam train whistle
What makes you guys assume that I can’t braze? lol if you watched my channel you’d know that I don’t have any problem brazing. You guys could be a bit less rude, what if I wasn’t good at brazing? Am I not good enough for your trade? Geez guys, have some compassion.
You can buy a whole bunch of fittings to practice with for the cost of those tool sets.
@The DIY HVAC Guy I'm a commercial tech, work in big data centers and medical facilities mostly. I will say this, you shouldn't rely on zoomlock because nothing will beat brazing a joint. But zoomlock does have its place, you have an emergency repair that needs to be made at 1am and you can't get the fire alarm company out or a fire watch then zoomlock it is. Mini splits where you want zero chance of scale inside the system is also good for zoomlock, even if you flow nitrogen I still like knowing there is a zero chance of anything getting in the system.
I've had good success with zoomlock when I've used it and it's not just pushing a button on a tool like most people think, there is some skill involved to getting consistent fittings with no leaks.
Do your thing man, it works and looks like you got it.
I am a full time plumber and I have the press tool, pex crimper and regular soldering torch. I will always always solder over press anytime I need to make
Copper pipe connections. Unless I’m working with a leaking water line and cannot stop the flow of water all the way or a live main, however 9/10 if I can use a torch to do tbe job I would choose that all day long
I remember looking like I just watched a trainwreck happen when I stepped on to campus for the first time and saw the guys getting the prep work ready for a 4'' copper line job in a couple of the basements.
They said it was the only way, because the hydronic line was so close the concrete ceiling and insulation, that there was no other way. Wish I could find out if they're still holding after all these years.
@@MR-nl8xr Do they even make 4” press fittings, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
@@rodgraff1782 No, you understood right.
It was (what I remember to be) a stainless strap that they used a crimping tool, to get "crimped" onto the OD of the pipe.
I think they got (tools and straps) it from a local Hirsch.
At least that's how I remember it, it's been so long since then; I'd have to go back and look in some old photos of that campus to verify.
I've never messed around with stuff until I landed there (and never hope to have to), so I can't exactly explain what it was, but I do KNOW it wasn't sweated, or soft brazed, which is enough for me not give a sh** about using it.
Screw type couplers are the best does not need expensive crimping tool only regular wrench also removing crimps are difficult.
good to have in your arsenal, for different applications and times. if they make it, why not. some are so close-minded on only brazing. it's the price that scares them away.
So true. To each their own 👍🏼
Legitimately the price is no where near comparable. I have looked several times at it I love tools in general but I can not even com close to legitimizing the purchase of this as a Service Technician. 20+ years in the field and not on the low end of wages by any means. Over time it may come down but definitely more cost effective for a technician to braze. One thing if only if it maybe double or triple the initial cost but a welding rig $350 or press machine for $2500-4000 based on region. That is not close at all.
From watching many HVAC videos on the subject of brazing, the biggest reason I see NOT to braze is the potential to contaminate the refrigerant with debris or flux. In an ideal system, nothing would be brazed. Hopefully these crimps withstand the pressures and the test of time.
This is why we flow nitrogen...
There’s also these things called flares….
o-rings are a leak waiting to happen , schrader valves are proof of that over time the rubber contracts or wears out completely
It’s not the process that causes the problem. It’s the person who doesn’t know how to braze properly.
I'm not in the trade, but I have done other tasks that can be done both an old fashioned way and a gadgetry way and learned to do both. If that had been my house, I would have wanted that first connection (where you had to cut off the 'bell' and shorten the A/C unit's pipe) to be brazed; then crimp the rest. I would worry that being a few mm short might compromise the connection (don't think it did, but how does one know); and that there would not be room to get the bulky tool into place (I was wrong there, you did get it done, good job, but had take things apart a little to gain access). But if that first step failed, then you would have "burned a bridge" and had to replace more. The crimp method looks faster but less "retrievable" if you have to undo it. I wonder what the longevity is of a brazed connection vs a crimped. If the crimped connection depends on a plastic O-ring, how long until that material fails, I wonder.
Excellent education! Your instruction & filming were perfect, Thanks
I was at a big job with 1 1/4" black iron press fittings.. There was a 40' vertical run from ground to roof.. OMG the job was really cute looking with leaks.
Are the O-rings compatible with the refrigerants and oils? Even if so, I"m not sure I would trust them long term. Even HNBR O-rings in automotive applications eventually leak after being under compression and going through many thousands of heat-cold cycles.
Yes these fittings are designed specifically for refrigerant and are supposed to last the life of the system.
@@diyhvacguy sad to say this but considering nowadays the quality of our systems coming out of manufacturing is horrific at times solar light for the system now this could be 2-5 yearslol just saying🙄
These press fittings are becoming very common. We have redone heating and air-conditioning systems in multiple schools now.
It looks fantastic - for the only guy on the block with all the expensive tools needed to perform this.
It's an O- ring world these days, everything uses perfect fits with O-rings.
It's also a ' last long enough to get it out the door ' world as well.
I can see these on tables at tool swap- meets and yard sales in the future.
Had a plumber use this kind of tool on a new water supply line run into my house. Wasn't crazy about the idea of O-rings that will eventually dry/crack/degrade but he assured me that it was specially designed for plumbing and should last for several decades.
I'm not sure I'd trust it with HVAC where the pressures are a lot higher and there's constant vibration from the compressor. There's a reason you had to the line on the condenser...because the manufacturer wants you to braise the joints.
We sell a lot of this type of stuff where I work. Zoomlock is what we sell a lot of for refrigeration. We also have propress and megapress for hydronic and gas respectively. With the new propane based refrigerants being the new normal in a couple of years, I'm wondering if condensing units and coils and line sets will start shipping standard with these types of connections in mind.
I certainly hope so! That would be amazing
It couldn’t be a good idea as long as you have room for the tool, also if your fitting don’t go inside walls. I don’t think brazing its going to go away.
Great vid. Very happy to see HVAC using new gear.
Stay bright 8 works like plumbing solder and doesn’t void the warranty cutting the king valve.
Are you also going to do a video on the push-on connectors? They seem better because they can be easily removed with a tool
Yesir! Coming in the next week or so! I just filmed the installation of those and will post that very soon :) cheers
I haven't heard that a press tool was capable of the kind of pressures that are generated from HVAC compressors. 400 plus psi on R410A. Also there will be some vibration in the refrigerant line, how are the joints going to stand up to that. If it does work there will be a lot less contamination in the HVAC systems from poor brazing practices that are so prevalent in the industry.
That’s the idea, zero contaminants from brazing with no nitrogen, or getting flux in the lines when soldering. They are tested up to 700 psi which the high pressure switch will kick in well before that to prevent major damage.
@@diyhvacguy the propress units I've seen are only rated at 175 psi or less. Which propress are you comparing your numbers with. I think it would be great if your numbers are right. I'd like too see some documentation of any propress achieving 700 PSI working pressure.
@@davidgordon8102 The 700psi could be burst.
Know for a fact. We had a freeze for a couple of days and when the temperature started going up, we had line breaks on our water lines where we used press fittings. We tried lime hell to wrap everything on the property and drip faucets but at the end, we had leaks. Once you get the water to ice up, they will leak. Great for warm temperatures all year round.
Plumbing is a different ballgame my friend. This is for refrigerant lines and it’s a totally different system, and for that matter totally different crimp fitting then the water ones 👍🏼
Yea, I know. I would never have my HVAC department do that.
@@josephrocha7879 no i think you onto something, the oring is just a rubber ring and in cold climates were we get anywhere from -20 to 90 degrees the oring can deteriorate by freezing and causing to crack, with the pressure of 150-250psi its possible.
If you didn't have press fittings the pipe would have split instead. Unless you are using PEX lines that can expand freezing will always cause a leak, the ice simply must expand somewhere.
Makes for a nice clean connection! Thanks for sharing.
It’s better if you anneal hard copper pipe, so you don’t get the wrinkles. If the lines were left long enough, you would have only two joints
I know you guys never screw up. I occasionally do. How do you get those damned things off when you butt them up to a valve (as in your demo)? I also worry about big temp swings and expansion/contraction. Stay-Silv for critical apps.
I’m going to do a video in removing one and brazing it in if it happens for whatever reason.
@@diyhvacguy Now that will be an interesting video.
I didn't know these were rated at the psi needed for hvac work. It looks cool but I think brazing is better. I can braze those joints almost as fast as you and that tool if not faster. Cool tool though.
Thanks to these new couplings we will have more work cause of so many leaks in the lines 👍👍👍
That’s right you should be thanking me for providing you with more work 🤦🏻♂️
Stay bright 8 works without using nitrogen flow..1st 410a units i used those still has no leaks its been 12 years now on our maintained apartment units..that crimp IMHO is good in plumbing waterlines and hydronic boilers and residential hot-water system.. our plumber used those everytime..its a pain to solder waterlines with trickling water😂
Just watched a vid-they took the o'rings out and pressure tested the fitting -it didnt leak-so even after the rubber is worn the fitting should hold-its more of a compression fitting.
Glad to see this on your channel. I've seen this on other channels but I was waiting to see it on yours first since I feel you to be trustworthy. Absolute no relation to the HVAC field... Just your average RUclips DIYer looking to install my own system this summer. I guess a concern that I may have would be the tested and true aspect of this install. Is this new tech to the industry? What are the long-term effects on the seals/joints? Will they stand the test of time? Just a few questions I would have. Thanks for the video!
It’s not super new technology. The RLS system was designed and began to be used in 2015, so this system is 7 years old. Not old enough for some folks to trust it but I’m willing to the the trailblazer on it. The fittings are supposed to last the life of the system. So only time will tell! I appreciate your words and I try to be as transparent about things as possible. So if something happens and one of these leaks you guys will be the first to know about it. Cheers, Dave
Some supply shops rent out the crimping tool if you buy all the fittings from them, so, ideal for the DIY tech. But prep is key.
Good luck with your upcoming install.
You explain how to copper brazing really well
Great video. Thanks for sharing it with us. That press tool works like magic. Awesome !!!!!!!!!!!!
I am an IT field engineer and many years ago, I was tired of waiting on electricians to put in my conduit... so I shadowed under a soon-to-be retiring 33+ year master electrician. Long story short, one of the many things he showed me was bending EMT... he had all the math formulas in his head ready to go.... it was crazy! I wrote them all down for 1/2" (most common for me) 3/4" and 1". I have the benders for 1/2 and 3/4 but I've never tried bending copper with them. I know copper is very soft compared to the rigid EMT... I wonder if those benders would work on copper piping? I would imagine I could do my saddle's, offsets, etc.... with copper, might look a little weird, lol
Just got to your crimping part... that method is very similar to Pex B crimping.
make a video
I would suggest to have refrigeration oil handy and lube the outside of the pipe where the O-ring will seal to. With vibration, the microdust of cleaning the pipe to be sealed to will wear out the O-ring. I would wipe anyplace that I used emery or something, with acetone or something. What I see now is two potential leaks at every joint, not just one. What gives me nightmares are the superfine leaks that only a few ounces need to be added every year. Heat pumps can be fussy and need the specific charge to operate correctly. I think I will wait a few years to know the reliability of the system. Plumbing with low to medium pressures are one thing, but add vibration to the equation and reliability can be an issue.
that is neat af im not into h vac but i deal with enough copper at my work that this would be a game changer for me too so im definitely gonna buy it.
@Riley Vance Or, more then likely, being sponsored, No sell respecting tech would use this, Putting the outdoor unit on it's side to fit them on lol, wtf is this...
Always check the fitting for the o-ring is in place, had one that was missing, no fun at all!, but that was hydronic heating,
I’d have found out real quick with my pressure test haha thanks for sharing 🙏🏻
I see it is being useful for DYIer who doesn't have brazing tools and nitrogen, however the tool is crazy expensive and the fittings are like $20-$30/piece. Same reason applies for a pro not to use it except in certain situations - $100 in parts spent with higher leak risk
I'm not an HVAC guy, but I have read that the main problem with car A/C units is leaking from the O-rings. I haven't had a problem soldering pipes.
Pretty cool but brazing is fun and easier to repair if you have issues. The only place i might use it is the expansion valve. That pipe bender tho
By the time you have the factory fitting cut off I could have already brazed a piece of tubing into it!
I have not once seen this in the field work. I have run service calls where these fittings were used by someone else, and they were leaking/the source of the problem. "Do not recommend" you can quote me on that. Professionals has no issue brazing copper lines, it's fast and verifiable and a way to connect copper together.
My bending tool was a long piece of copper wire. I wrap it around the pipe and make the bend and it is not kinked. Cheap too.
Cool! What awg?
This is the future because they have to go to flameless connections. Not because it's easier. The new refrigerant they will be making us switch to is flammable.
Sweating a joint is simple. But make sure your Solder has Nickle in it. I have seen a job sweating a joint where the solder just would not take and it leaked repeatedly and this was for a Hydronic system. A commercial contractor said " try this because it has Nickle in it. It did job in one try.
Well thats as slick as it gets, I remember when pex and now the newer style came out Inspectors where all bent out of shape about it I now would never plumb with out it
looks ok for working on lines previously filled with flammable refrigerant
As an electrician, I would have issues with the lack of 90-degree wiring to the point I would have to install a couple of one-hole straps with anchors into the concrete and maybe a zip toe or two. I always want the customer to know they hired the right person even if it makes the other lines and wires on the house look worse. The only place I will not square things up is when an existing pipe run is not level then I have no choice but to make mine the same but it hurts inside.
The tool is interesting but is there a warranty on how many years it is designed to last? Will the company replace faulty parts if you prove it failed but was installed correctly by sending the part to the manufacturer?
Try the Smartlock fittings. Only need 2 adjustable wrenches to install. The only fitting on the market that fits over the swage hubs at the condenser and the coil. No need to do any surgery on the service falls. No expensive tools to buy. No de burring. Oring seals are only good for POE oils.
Please email me with more info on this! I’d love to know more. Diyhvacguy@gmail.com thanks!
The hate in these comments is unreal. More than half of you complaining about this dude and these new tools are probably alcoholics that never went anywhere in life and are bitter as hell. Again, Thank you DIY HVAC Guy for taking the time to make and post this video.
Thanks man, there will always be haters. The world is full of hate, but there’s no need for it. I do it because of viewers like yourself. Cheers man
The Old Way from Years ago was a Compression Ring. I've seen Those used 40 Yr's , no Prob. That is especially the best Thing to use on a Dryer. The Dryer have less Time to Atmospheric Exposure. Also later , To change out the Dryer.....Quick Swap !
Im going to give you a tip , i see no pipe insulation on the 3/4 . So if you dealing with a line set thats preinsulated , push the insulation back enough and use your pipe cutter to hold it in place and you have the perfect and great looking insulation over your suction pipe . 30 plus years a person learns alot of tips of the trade .
I used the split insulation with adhesive that you can attach afterwards. I’ve used your tip in the past though! Thanks for sharing 🙏🏻
I would opt to braze that joint at the service valve - then maybe crimp the rest, knowing most companies will want to go for new copper as part of getting better warranty odds on callbacks.
I can see where this would be particularly beneficial on mini splits where they ask you to NOT braze connections unless using a nitrogen charged line.
Why would you braze on minisplits? Get a longer line set and practice flaring.
@@slayvenomgoblet6657
The flared connections behind the head on a mini split are particularly difficult to torque correctly, hard to reach, hard to hold two wrenches, and brazing would be significantly easier and faster as well as make a leakproof connection. Multi head mini splits have many flaired connections and all of them could leak ever so slightly making finding a leak a disaster.
For hot water heating tank is really good or spots where is so tight and dry old wood I use this but if I can use the gas torch I’ll do it it saves money because that press fit good one are $18 to up
I can't wait till someone invents "HVAC connections for dummies". Something so effective yet so simple even a DIY homeowner can install a new condenser unit in under 2 hours. It also never leaks in 20 years :)
Moving up in life. Nice, I hope to be where you at in my profession one day.
Thanks so much for the support! Keep at it and you’ll get there! Cheers
Been doing this my while life family business,laboring running gas lines at 12. I'm now 38 I work for myself. I love that hilmar. I have the same ones.I still braze. Idk I trust my welds :) 💪 (need a better design for attaching at the king valve) I like how it uses makita :)
Thanks for the feedback. I’m 31, don’t ever see myself working for someone else. I can respect that you want to stick to brazing as it’s tried and tested. Cheers man!
@@diyhvacguy thanks buddy same to you!
If you have 3" copper and theres a joint by the wall, how are you going to press it? What if theres a ball valve near it and its got a leak? You gonna press it? Nah. Press fittings have their place, but brazed joints arent going going anywhere for a long time
Very clean, professional installation! $3,500 for the tool kit is a bit much. Maybe Milwaukee will come to the rescue for the guys already invested in the M18 or M12 battery platform.
The hillmore is nice, and getting the reverse throw kit makes if FAR more useful, but the outer ears strip out rapidly and fail… I use a different brand, I’ll update you with the brand. Much better method of attaching them, and it comes with the reverse bend kit.
BlackMax from CPS far superior bender.
I've also been working in this field for over 25 yrs and I agree with Shane Carr and Theron Big Eagle. I have an older version of the bending tool and it is a good tool. I'd been done with this job in half the time brazing it with Stay silv, silver solder. Easier to solder, stronger joint using way less heat than brazing rod.
We have tried multiple options for no flame copper connections. The industry will have to find an alternative to make copper connections that are leak free without flames. We have been using pro fit sockets and unions for copper connections. In the near future open flames will not be allowed.
The zoom lock your using WILL FAIL. WE know this from experience. We still use it for our plumbing department. But they are not reliable over time in the hvac systems. Maybe the vibrations or possibly the chemical composition of the refrigerant. We have made a commitment to remove torches from our trucks ASAP.