i feel like starting your video essay by saying it is only really to reinforce existing beliefs or thoughts on a piece of media rather than challenge existing, contrary opinions to your own is needlessly defeatist. i don't agree with some of commentary on the story talk here (so much as the superb diagnosis of the game's more structural narrative problems created by its calendar and dungeon loop) but you should stand strong behind those beliefs if you're really so sure about them. obviously there's no obligation to be gay kanji's strongest soldier for the rest of your days or anything, but it isn't arguing from a position of strength for a thesis to include concession or lack of interest in changing minds as a sort of aside before the body of the essay.
ohhh my god i've been thinking about this recently!! persona 4 is hilarious cuz like, it is so obviously not a queer game and never tried to be one, but it still makes time to be homophobic and transphobic. because atlus, presumably. like there's 2 periods of my life where i played p4, first was before i knew i was gay and nb, and the 2nd after the proverbial closet smashing, and these 2 experiences are as tied together as they are completely separate. i loved it when i first played it. now, it is physically impossible for me to ignore some its writing decisions. i think p4, as it is, is Fine. i also think it's a mean-spirited and just weirdly written game that doesn't actually want to commit to what it means to exist as an outcast in society, and it's a problem i have with p5, too, but more nebulously cuz i haven't replayed that since royal came out lol. like, queer people have always existed out the fringes of society. they are not compatible with what mainstream society wants, which is being cisgender and/or heterosexual, and atlus made a game where the cast is made up of people who simply do not fit in for one reason or another. of course that's going to resonate with the lgbt community, and they are very quickly going to find out the game does not respect their existence. kanji and naoto were not written to be gay or trans, but the subtext is still there, intentional or not, and the game does not want you to entertain the idea they might not fit into cisheteronormative society. but because that subtext is still there, i still think people should critically engage with it. the fact that people will immediately reply with "well naoto isn't ACTUALLY trans" when someone says her plotline is transphobic and like. yea! naoto isn't! but her plotline is still egregiously transphobic because of how it frames the issue. p4 frames the idea of gender reassignment surgery as some evil act, like it's experimenting with forbidden science. like the surgery's been around since the 1930s. it's not new. plus, after her dungeon, naoto's social link has you encourage her to dress more fem, as though even cis women can't dress in more nonconforming ways. you have to dress like a girl if you're a girl, and dressing like a boy is just a phase. which is hilarious because kanji's own social link has him accepting that he can be a man with traditionally feminine interests. probably cuz, like you said in the vid, he can make money off that. tho, i gotta wonder if it's cuz kanji's family owns that textile shop, so him knowing how to sew isn't as much a "man doing something feminine" thing as much as it is a "kid following in parent's footsteps" thing. atlus seems like the kinda company to say that you have to forgive abusive relatives because they're family. idk anyway p4 would be vastly improved if chie and yukiko were in lesbians with each other and kanji just fucking killed yosuke for some of the shit he says. or, ya know, bring back that cut yosuke romance and talk about internalized homophobia instead of thinking the idea of being gay is way more funny and interesting. also commit to either having naoto's central issue being one of workplace misogyny or gender dysphoria, cuz right now it's failing at both. also like, maybe poke around with the idea that maybe naoto isn't being respected because she is 15 and adults do not usually respect children or believe that kids can have interiority.
Spoilers in bound: In the Persona series, 3,4,5 they could be described as in order of Neutral, Law, and Chaos in terms of the SMT's alignments. With each title, the societal path which the hidden deities want something for all of humanity, those ideals conflict with the Teenage Teams. I agree it overall is questionable for the true final bosses to be a step after the literal human final boss. Although for P3 that is the exception for the traitor of that game. Then, Strega in paper is great but execution is...lackluster. Like their double-suicide death wishes on society is something. They either wanted power for a chance to do something meaningful or destructive payback on the Kirijo Group. Anyways here, Adachi is memed so often since he is relatable as an individualistic perspective. Izanami was alright but ruined the high tension against Adachi. Cool music tho. Persona 5 is staged decently since it is literally a public battle that televised society is viewing it. Back to the alignments. Neutral because with P3 SEES, their objective at the end was to give humanity a literal fighting chance in life. Law as seen here was the authority or stability of civil standards. Not at the level of other Law routes of SMT. The Investigation Team were not legally upholding established law enforcement. It is clear that the team respects justice but in their own method. One ending well...Yosuke and Yu lead to Namatame dying. Regardless, in the SMT series, the justified murder would be acceptable. However, as a game, it remains neutral and indicate that as the bad ending. Full details being unsolved. Law routes cover their bases with world-level dominance of the societal rules. In that ending, Adachi dodged it. Meaning rebels like him revel in cold cases. P4 Golden added more chaos related endings which are related to Yu-Adachi and Marie with their final resolutions. Marie being because of their self-identity then becoming separate from the Deity of the Fog. Persona 5 is so transparent about being chaotic in means and goals. Their ideal of justice is at an individual level for each cast member. Also, they right the wrongs of the Mind Palaces. Those were true criminals. Yet as oppressors in the world of Yaldabaoth, the final boss they reveled in that type of domain. I am tired from a merged synopsis of three games...XD
Persona 4 is also still seen and the best in the series by a lot of people so if you don’t like it that’s cool but the game is still very loved and personally it helped me be a more happier and accepting person so I think it’s messages are very good
I know im late but this to some extent was my issue with this game when i played it. I felt like the messaging was really off putting to me asw ell as the what feels like underlying message of conformity is the only way and real people arent bad except the ones that dont sacrifice for the greater good. The overwhelming need to force the characters to assimilate was a huge turn off.
Okay, so, i did not PLAY Persona 4... but i watched my boyfriend play SOME of it. So i definitely have a stake in this discussion 😂 I've read some about Naoto and Kanji and the way they're handled is so crazy to me. Then you asserted about how everyone has to slot their way back into society and it totally clicked. For a game about breaking out of norms, it really shies away from actually doing it x,D You also touched a Lot on why i feel like i may never truly be satisfied by a persona game. I played Royal back over the start of covid when my sister basically set her ps4 in front of my face- and it was like, entertaining. The characters just (mostly) all felt so... formulaic to me 🤔 it was kind of boring. Watching my bf made me feel like I'd possibly find most of the series boring, tbh. If only we got a devil survivor 3 😔😔😔 Anyway this was both eye opening and thought provoking! Your efforts are not going to waste, i promise 🙏
I feel like Persona 4 WANTS to say something about society but the writers's own bigotry makes them have like.. such a small imagination about what the "problems about society" even are, so they fail at their goal. Exactly the same problem with Persona 5 wanting to say something about rebelling against society and again hitting the same mental roadblock. And it's a shame because everything else about the game is fine and I get why people who aren't LGBT can just focus on all the good parts. And heck, some LGBT people also manage to push past it. But I don't blame anyone who can't, because well... the fact the homophobia contradicts the entire main moral of the game is an understandably huge thing to ignore. TFW bigotry is so bad it becomes a plot hole lol... So yeah, I don't fault anyone who likes the game but I think people who deny the problems exist just so they can like it are kinda weird. You're allowed to like flawed media, yknow? So I feel that "naoto's plotline is transphobic" and "Its still a good game" can coexist. (Same as how "naoto's plotline is transphobic" and "the character was never intended to be canonically trans" can coexist and I dunno why there's such an angry debate about it...)
Sorry lol I rambled a bit here In short: "Rebel against authority.. except heterosexuality as a norm" and "Seek out the truth... except if your own truth is being gay" Are just fundamentally contradictory story morals, and it's why the homophobia in p4 and p5 are more of an immersion breaker than other games.
"Same as how "naoto's plotline is transphobic" and "the character was never intended to be canonically trans" can coexist and I dunno why there's such an angry debate about it..." People want their prejudices to be unexamined, otherwise they have to contend with. them. That's my take, anyhow.
@@cassiedevereaux-smith3890 Yeah it just feels like misdirecting the conversation to "so you're saying she's trans?? She's not!" is a way to avoid actually discussing the fact the scenes have transphobia in them. I felt it was pretty hard to deny when it literally villainizes transition surgery. And not saying "literally" to be hyperbolic here, no LITERALLY they have her shadow be a boy version of herself in a doctor's outfit strapping her to a big ominous scary science machine and everyone's all like ooo gotta save her before she gets transed. Like lol I'd like to think we can all agree that that's a bit rude, regardless of whether the character is cis or trans it's still saying Trans Is Bad And Scary. 😅 Reminds me of similar discussion around the character Excellus in Fire Emblem. He's still referred to as a man in both English and Japanese but the game also has transphobic language used towards him in both versions. Just cos it's written by some weirdo who conflates gay men and trans women into the same thing doesn't mean it's somehow magically not offensive...
@@Bunni89 100% agree. It's presented as a monstrous horror to be saved from. Not a personal journey of self-examination. Not 'actually this isn't me after all.' Something violent and horrific to be rescued from.. Today's TERFs couldn't craft better.
How do the writers have bigotry? And like no they do know what the "problems about society" so they don't really fail at their goal. No P5 didn't hit a mental roadblock like neither of them did really. The homophobia isn't ever meant to be a good thing though. I don't see what plot hole there is really. Or maybe people realize that the complaints don't all make sense...how does that really make them weird?
Late to the party but love the video. As an aside that always bothered me with discussions about the game and even how it presents itself: Adachi isn’t even a serial killer, arguably not even a murderer. He committed 2 acts of manslaughter, manipulates a couple mentally unstable individuals then does nothing and people often talk about him as if he’s a high end evil genius. It further lowered the stakes of the game for me and makes me question how people measure villain competence. Edit: I suppose Saki’s death could be considered murder but it really straddles the line. Definitely arguable imo.
I loved Persona 4 when I first played it. I was 17, closer to these characters in age and status in society than I ever will be again. I saw myself in a lot of these characters, and related to their struggles, and I looked past (or just didn't notice) all the mud that covers everything this game is trying to say. Now, I don't know if I'll ever be able to see it that way again. It hasn't been *that* long for me since I first played it (I'm 21 now), but it's impossible for me to look at this game without seeing that, on a fundamental level, it thinks that I cannot exist in society as I am. I need to change, to conform. And even though I love a lot of moments in this game and think bits and pieces of it are still super resonant, I don't think I will ever be able to love it the way I did initially (and the way I still do for much of Persona 3 and 5).
I don't understand comments like this. You can enjoy the game while dislking certain aspects of it, as a game it's significantly better than 3 atleast and has the best character writing in any atlus game still.
I never said I dislike the game; in fact, I’d describe my relationship to it to be one where I enjoy it but there are many aspects about it that I dislike. Many of those reasons are outlined in this video actually.
@@silentpartner9957 that’s fair, I just think it’s unfair when people look at one thing the game does bad and uses it to bring down the entire experience. I agree the game is definitely outdated with some of its themes and ideas. That camping scene genuinely made me cringe. Yosuke saying kanji was “unsafe” was not only really rude but the thing that tipped it over the edge was that it was COMPLETELY out of character, it makes no sense why he would say that when he did. There’s other instances of that but for some reason it’s mainly yosuke who has weird as hell comments towards someone like kanji, it’s frustrating. There’s some mild ones like the fat jokes which I don’t really think are issues at all but I think it’s fine to point out some of the instances where the game just completely 180s in terms of dialogue and writing quality. On the other hand you have characters like Nanako and dojima who I think are some of the best written characters I’ve seen in a jrpg, so I guess the worst thing is how people who wrote characters THAT good made really stupid choices with some of the games dialogue and commentary, I think that’s the most important thing I’m looking forward to in the inevitable remake of the game, hopefully they take out the weird nonsense. Otherwise this game is amazing and my second favorite atlus game in general only behind Royal.
Part of me agrees, another disagrees. Like there is no doubt P4 has some major issues both with commentary on misogyny/sexism, its casual homophobia, use of gender essentialist language (slight blame on the translation for adding just a tad bit extra on to it), fatphobia and etc but there is also a lot to the cast that you can dig into even the more controversial Kanji and Naoto. I feel like the discussion and discourse on P4 (in the western fandom) has kind of hit a reductionist point like the nay-sayers are gonna nay-say and the yeah-sayers are gonna yay-yay. But I feel there is so much nuance lost when people lose its sociocultural context: its first and foremost for a Japanese audience and it was written in the late 2000's (which mind you definitely hasn't aged it well at all). Like there is valid criticism of filial piety, conformity, television culture, etc. I know this was just a tiny part of the video but it bothers me how many people misunderstand Yukiko's character arc (she's my favorite tbh). It's not about gaining independence but about realizing that you have a community that supports you, it's not just pressure, obligation and responsibility (the birdcage was always open). That's what happens during Yukiko's social link, she realizes the people there aren't just there for her to own up to, they want to care for her and be there for her (everyone knew she was literally going to ghost 'em/well, leave town to be exact). It feels like a deconstruction on Filial Piety. And like Kanji *is* queer-coded post dungeon in his social links and persona but it's sadly made into a joke in the main story which makes it seem like "he turned straight". Personally for me it's a love-hate sort of game. I appreciate some aspects like the small town tone, the non-party social links, the mythology and certain characters (Kanji, Yukiko, Nanako especially) and the analyses and discussion around it when it's not been made into discourse. But on the other hand it seems like the story kind of wants to bash you in with insensitive humor and sometimes fanservice, and then there is the gender essentialism and the other stuff I mentioned where it sort of failed to properly conclude certain criticisms.
I can kind of see where you're coming from with Yukiko's arc. I feel like it definitely ends up in that position, that she's encouraged to take on the inn because she's recognized that the staff there love and support her, but it feels weird, because that wasn't the conflict as established. She felt stifled by her life, caged by her family inheritance, her life is depicted as a princess caged in a castle, an enviable life with no freedom. The social link starts off as a direct confrontation of that notion, her going behind her family's back to try and figure out her own independence. That the reason why she goes agree to work at the inn ultimately for a reason that is generally positive (though we cooooould really go into the weeds about class dynamics concerning that these are paid employees but we'll take the game at its word here) doesn't quite line up with the resolution of the arc as a whole. It's why she ends by kind of openly saying she wants to do this on her own terms, because that statement fully addresses what the conflict was. It's definitely not the worst arc in the game (I have many misgivings over the Devil link), but it is still pretty clearly an example of the problem that the arcs for the party members kind of bend back around full circle into society but with more self-assurance of themselves.
@@VivianAladren Holistically I see it. I mean just looking at Naoto definitely feels like a gender essentalist "OH now that she's a GIRL, GIRLY GIRL GIRL she NEEDS to practice traditional femininity and woman-ness" ending, she felt trapped in womanhood but NOW she comes around to it and naturally integrates into it because "she saw the truth". Similarly with Marie (wdym you're a god and decide to get into capitalism's workforce) and Rise (to an extent, Rise is an entertainer, that's her character but I feel like the problem is more on the lack of acknowledgement of the rampant misogyny she is throwing herself back into). I also do want to add that to me I never read Pesona 4 as that sort of social outcasts coming together theme so I don't think it's wrong per se for the arcs to come full-circle (it's just that some of persona 4's arcs are definite flops... yeah we don't talk about the devil s.link, persona try not to be p*dophilic, challenge impossible). Like the characters are misfits but they still have "acceptable places" in society despite their misgivings with the societal issues they face. They are, sadly, normative characters which misses a lot of potential. With Yukiko I personally felt her arc didn't fall into that sort of "conformity" resolution, partly because in her case she was the deciding factor. She wasn't someone who was "caged", her shadow's birdcage is open she just never did anything herself and it's revealed she never actually thought about communicating her feelings because she only saw the pressure of it all. With outside support, thanks to the MC in her social link, she's able to change perspective and start taking action herself, gaining independence. I don't think the actual circumstances actually matches the idea of her needing to get directly away from the inn only for it all to be a "foil" at the end. Her story also doesn't fall into the pattern of traditional conformity since she is to succeed the inn which is very girlboss (compared with irl). *me realizing I sound like a waifu defender throwing every other character under the bus😭😭
I think it has the highest highs and the lowest lows in any atlus game, the highs are some of the best i've encountered in any videogame, nanako and dojima are two of the best characters I've seen, but then the game also has stuff like the camping trip which just rubs me the wrong way sometimes. However it's not prominent enough to outweigh the highs for me. The game is still am 8.5 or 9/10 and I think it has the best cast of characters in the series alongside social links.
"People don't understand.... Naoto's NOT trans, she is just yadda yadda yadda....." Nah, we get that. The thing is her story has something to SAY about trans people, and it's really gross.
Great straw man I completely support trans people and like naoto and kanji story I don’t think you have to turn people into monsters if they disagree with you
@@ryanhatfield8602 You're reading a whole lot into what I wrote to take it so personally. Since you support trans people, take the time to try to understand the way many if not most of us feel about Naoto's story. Even if you come away disagreeing in the end, take some time to see where we're coming from and sit with it a while.
@@cassiedevereaux-smith3890 I do understand stand and and if you don’t like there story that’s fine just try to understand why someone could like it without being some bad person
i'll go a step further and say that p4 does not have better gameplay than p3 at all! the balancing makes the combat so boring and overly drawn out. also i resent the p1 shade early on but pretty good video overall 👍 i think Rise is the only character i'd say that i find truly interesting in this game because if you do her social link you really get to see Rise and Risette form as different but real identities, reminiscent of Maki's various selves in P1, not inherently malicious, just different aspects, both very real. i think it touches fairly well on the struggle between the commodification that anybody in the entertainment industry's spotlight would face while still expressing why someone would want to push through either way. i think it helps that Rise is the only character in the game helped by golden's extra cutscenes and really the hang out scenes in general? the concert and stuff really gives you a good sense for her emotional intelligence and leadership skills (the reason why she's a navigator) while balancing it with follies of a teenager and that ties together pretty well narratively with what i mentioned about her SL. the mechanical issues with the system still exist though that shit's ass. as much as i love P3 i wish it didn't become such a strict blueprint for the rest of the series.
I'm actually currently replaying Persona 1 and I was a little harsh on it in the video. It's incredibly charming, I am putting myself through the 5 amrbosia SQQ grind but overall I am relentlessly fond of it. Also the PSP OST is genuinely one of the best soundtracks in video game history
Persona 3's gameplay consists of tartarus, a mind numbingly long randomly generated dungeon that causes awful story pacing issues. At the very least p4 had the courtesy of making its dungeons short, and for that alone I'd say it's a better game. Most of it's bosses have ailment weaknesses too so varied builds actually feel useful in boss fights.
I respect not bringing up Kanji or Naoto until 3/4 of the way into a video criticizing Persona 4
"To greet you with photographic proof of how inescapable are rolls really are" goes so hard
Couldn't have said it any better
> Teddie as a content warning
Fucking TRUE
i feel like starting your video essay by saying it is only really to reinforce existing beliefs or thoughts on a piece of media rather than challenge existing, contrary opinions to your own is needlessly defeatist. i don't agree with some of commentary on the story talk here (so much as the superb diagnosis of the game's more structural narrative problems created by its calendar and dungeon loop) but you should stand strong behind those beliefs if you're really so sure about them. obviously there's no obligation to be gay kanji's strongest soldier for the rest of your days or anything, but it isn't arguing from a position of strength for a thesis to include concession or lack of interest in changing minds as a sort of aside before the body of the essay.
Good Video
An insightful video about a fundamentally incurious game.
I love teddie he is very sweet and had some great moments and laughs and naoto and kanji are my favorite characters
ohhh my god i've been thinking about this recently!! persona 4 is hilarious cuz like, it is so obviously not a queer game and never tried to be one, but it still makes time to be homophobic and transphobic. because atlus, presumably. like there's 2 periods of my life where i played p4, first was before i knew i was gay and nb, and the 2nd after the proverbial closet smashing, and these 2 experiences are as tied together as they are completely separate. i loved it when i first played it. now, it is physically impossible for me to ignore some its writing decisions.
i think p4, as it is, is Fine. i also think it's a mean-spirited and just weirdly written game that doesn't actually want to commit to what it means to exist as an outcast in society, and it's a problem i have with p5, too, but more nebulously cuz i haven't replayed that since royal came out lol.
like, queer people have always existed out the fringes of society. they are not compatible with what mainstream society wants, which is being cisgender and/or heterosexual, and atlus made a game where the cast is made up of people who simply do not fit in for one reason or another. of course that's going to resonate with the lgbt community, and they are very quickly going to find out the game does not respect their existence. kanji and naoto were not written to be gay or trans, but the subtext is still there, intentional or not, and the game does not want you to entertain the idea they might not fit into cisheteronormative society. but because that subtext is still there, i still think people should critically engage with it. the fact that people will immediately reply with "well naoto isn't ACTUALLY trans" when someone says her plotline is transphobic and like. yea! naoto isn't! but her plotline is still egregiously transphobic because of how it frames the issue. p4 frames the idea of gender reassignment surgery as some evil act, like it's experimenting with forbidden science. like the surgery's been around since the 1930s. it's not new.
plus, after her dungeon, naoto's social link has you encourage her to dress more fem, as though even cis women can't dress in more nonconforming ways. you have to dress like a girl if you're a girl, and dressing like a boy is just a phase. which is hilarious because kanji's own social link has him accepting that he can be a man with traditionally feminine interests. probably cuz, like you said in the vid, he can make money off that. tho, i gotta wonder if it's cuz kanji's family owns that textile shop, so him knowing how to sew isn't as much a "man doing something feminine" thing as much as it is a "kid following in parent's footsteps" thing. atlus seems like the kinda company to say that you have to forgive abusive relatives because they're family.
idk anyway p4 would be vastly improved if chie and yukiko were in lesbians with each other and kanji just fucking killed yosuke for some of the shit he says. or, ya know, bring back that cut yosuke romance and talk about internalized homophobia instead of thinking the idea of being gay is way more funny and interesting. also commit to either having naoto's central issue being one of workplace misogyny or gender dysphoria, cuz right now it's failing at both. also like, maybe poke around with the idea that maybe naoto isn't being respected because she is 15 and adults do not usually respect children or believe that kids can have interiority.
Spoilers in bound: In the Persona series, 3,4,5 they could be described as in order of Neutral, Law, and Chaos in terms of the SMT's alignments. With each title, the societal path which the hidden deities want something for all of humanity, those ideals conflict with the Teenage Teams. I agree it overall is questionable for the true final bosses to be a step after the literal human final boss. Although for P3 that is the exception for the traitor of that game. Then, Strega in paper is great but execution is...lackluster. Like their double-suicide death wishes on society is something. They either wanted power for a chance to do something meaningful or destructive payback on the Kirijo Group. Anyways here, Adachi is memed so often since he is relatable as an individualistic perspective. Izanami was alright but ruined the high tension against Adachi. Cool music tho. Persona 5 is staged decently since it is literally a public battle that televised society is viewing it.
Back to the alignments. Neutral because with P3 SEES, their objective at the end was to give humanity a literal fighting chance in life. Law as seen here was the authority or stability of civil standards. Not at the level of other Law routes of SMT. The Investigation Team were not legally upholding established law enforcement. It is clear that the team respects justice but in their own method. One ending well...Yosuke and Yu lead to Namatame dying. Regardless, in the SMT series, the justified murder would be acceptable. However, as a game, it remains neutral and indicate that as the bad ending. Full details being unsolved. Law routes cover their bases with world-level dominance of the societal rules. In that ending, Adachi dodged it. Meaning rebels like him revel in cold cases. P4 Golden added more chaos related endings which are related to Yu-Adachi and Marie with their final resolutions. Marie being because of their self-identity then becoming separate from the Deity of the Fog. Persona 5 is so transparent about being chaotic in means and goals. Their ideal of justice is at an individual level for each cast member. Also, they right the wrongs of the Mind Palaces. Those were true criminals. Yet as oppressors in the world of Yaldabaoth, the final boss they reveled in that type of domain.
I am tired from a merged synopsis of three games...XD
Persona 4 is also still seen and the best in the series by a lot of people so if you don’t like it that’s cool but the game is still very loved and personally it helped me be a more happier and accepting person so I think it’s messages are very good
Persona 4 is my fav game of all time but yes it hasn't aged perfectly lol
I know im late but this to some extent was my issue with this game when i played it. I felt like the messaging was really off putting to me asw ell as the what feels like underlying message of conformity is the only way and real people arent bad except the ones that dont sacrifice for the greater good. The overwhelming need to force the characters to assimilate was a huge turn off.
Okay, so, i did not PLAY Persona 4... but i watched my boyfriend play SOME of it. So i definitely have a stake in this discussion 😂
I've read some about Naoto and Kanji and the way they're handled is so crazy to me. Then you asserted about how everyone has to slot their way back into society and it totally clicked. For a game about breaking out of norms, it really shies away from actually doing it x,D
You also touched a Lot on why i feel like i may never truly be satisfied by a persona game. I played Royal back over the start of covid when my sister basically set her ps4 in front of my face- and it was like, entertaining. The characters just (mostly) all felt so... formulaic to me 🤔 it was kind of boring. Watching my bf made me feel like I'd possibly find most of the series boring, tbh. If only we got a devil survivor 3 😔😔😔
Anyway this was both eye opening and thought provoking! Your efforts are not going to waste, i promise 🙏
I feel like Persona 4 WANTS to say something about society but the writers's own bigotry makes them have like.. such a small imagination about what the "problems about society" even are, so they fail at their goal. Exactly the same problem with Persona 5 wanting to say something about rebelling against society and again hitting the same mental roadblock.
And it's a shame because everything else about the game is fine and I get why people who aren't LGBT can just focus on all the good parts. And heck, some LGBT people also manage to push past it. But I don't blame anyone who can't, because well... the fact the homophobia contradicts the entire main moral of the game is an understandably huge thing to ignore.
TFW bigotry is so bad it becomes a plot hole lol...
So yeah, I don't fault anyone who likes the game but I think people who deny the problems exist just so they can like it are kinda weird. You're allowed to like flawed media, yknow? So I feel that "naoto's plotline is transphobic" and "Its still a good game" can coexist. (Same as how "naoto's plotline is transphobic" and "the character was never intended to be canonically trans" can coexist and I dunno why there's such an angry debate about it...)
Sorry lol I rambled a bit here
In short:
"Rebel against authority.. except heterosexuality as a norm"
and "Seek out the truth... except if your own truth is being gay"
Are just fundamentally contradictory story morals, and it's why the homophobia in p4 and p5 are more of an immersion breaker than other games.
"Same as how "naoto's plotline is transphobic" and "the character was never intended to be canonically trans" can coexist and I dunno why there's such an angry debate about it..."
People want their prejudices to be unexamined, otherwise they have to contend with. them. That's my take, anyhow.
@@cassiedevereaux-smith3890 Yeah it just feels like misdirecting the conversation to "so you're saying she's trans?? She's not!" is a way to avoid actually discussing the fact the scenes have transphobia in them. I felt it was pretty hard to deny when it literally villainizes transition surgery. And not saying "literally" to be hyperbolic here, no LITERALLY they have her shadow be a boy version of herself in a doctor's outfit strapping her to a big ominous scary science machine and everyone's all like ooo gotta save her before she gets transed. Like lol I'd like to think we can all agree that that's a bit rude, regardless of whether the character is cis or trans it's still saying Trans Is Bad And Scary. 😅
Reminds me of similar discussion around the character Excellus in Fire Emblem. He's still referred to as a man in both English and Japanese but the game also has transphobic language used towards him in both versions. Just cos it's written by some weirdo who conflates gay men and trans women into the same thing doesn't mean it's somehow magically not offensive...
@@Bunni89 100% agree. It's presented as a monstrous horror to be saved from. Not a personal journey of self-examination. Not 'actually this isn't me after all.' Something violent and horrific to be rescued from.. Today's TERFs couldn't craft better.
How do the writers have bigotry? And like no they do know what the "problems about society" so they don't really fail at their goal. No P5 didn't hit a mental roadblock like neither of them did really. The homophobia isn't ever meant to be a good thing though.
I don't see what plot hole there is really.
Or maybe people realize that the complaints don't all make sense...how does that really make them weird?
Late to the party but love the video. As an aside that always bothered me with discussions about the game and even how it presents itself: Adachi isn’t even a serial killer, arguably not even a murderer. He committed 2 acts of manslaughter, manipulates a couple mentally unstable individuals then does nothing and people often talk about him as if he’s a high end evil genius. It further lowered the stakes of the game for me and makes me question how people measure villain competence.
Edit: I suppose Saki’s death could be considered murder but it really straddles the line. Definitely arguable imo.
I loved Persona 4 when I first played it. I was 17, closer to these characters in age and status in society than I ever will be again. I saw myself in a lot of these characters, and related to their struggles, and I looked past (or just didn't notice) all the mud that covers everything this game is trying to say.
Now, I don't know if I'll ever be able to see it that way again. It hasn't been *that* long for me since I first played it (I'm 21 now), but it's impossible for me to look at this game without seeing that, on a fundamental level, it thinks that I cannot exist in society as I am. I need to change, to conform. And even though I love a lot of moments in this game and think bits and pieces of it are still super resonant, I don't think I will ever be able to love it the way I did initially (and the way I still do for much of Persona 3 and 5).
It doesn't say you need to conform or really change though but to bee your true self.
I don't understand comments like this. You can enjoy the game while dislking certain aspects of it, as a game it's significantly better than 3 atleast and has the best character writing in any atlus game still.
I never said I dislike the game; in fact, I’d describe my relationship to it to be one where I enjoy it but there are many aspects about it that I dislike. Many of those reasons are outlined in this video actually.
@@silentpartner9957 that’s fair, I just think it’s unfair when people look at one thing the game does bad and uses it to bring down the entire experience.
I agree the game is definitely outdated with some of its themes and ideas. That camping scene genuinely made me cringe. Yosuke saying kanji was “unsafe” was not only really rude but the thing that tipped it over the edge was that it was COMPLETELY out of character, it makes no sense why he would say that when he did. There’s other instances of that but for some reason it’s mainly yosuke who has weird as hell comments towards someone like kanji, it’s frustrating. There’s some mild ones like the fat jokes which I don’t really think are issues at all but I think it’s fine to point out some of the instances where the game just completely 180s in terms of dialogue and writing quality. On the other hand you have characters like Nanako and dojima who I think are some of the best written characters I’ve seen in a jrpg, so I guess the worst thing is how people who wrote characters THAT good made really stupid choices with some of the games dialogue and commentary, I think that’s the most important thing I’m looking forward to in the inevitable remake of the game, hopefully they take out the weird nonsense. Otherwise this game is amazing and my second favorite atlus game in general only behind Royal.
Part of me agrees, another disagrees. Like there is no doubt P4 has some major issues both with commentary on misogyny/sexism, its casual homophobia, use of gender essentialist language (slight blame on the translation for adding just a tad bit extra on to it), fatphobia and etc but there is also a lot to the cast that you can dig into even the more controversial Kanji and Naoto. I feel like the discussion and discourse on P4 (in the western fandom) has kind of hit a reductionist point like the nay-sayers are gonna nay-say and the yeah-sayers are gonna yay-yay. But I feel there is so much nuance lost when people lose its sociocultural context: its first and foremost for a Japanese audience and it was written in the late 2000's (which mind you definitely hasn't aged it well at all). Like there is valid criticism of filial piety, conformity, television culture, etc.
I know this was just a tiny part of the video but it bothers me how many people misunderstand Yukiko's character arc (she's my favorite tbh). It's not about gaining independence but about realizing that you have a community that supports you, it's not just pressure, obligation and responsibility (the birdcage was always open). That's what happens during Yukiko's social link, she realizes the people there aren't just there for her to own up to, they want to care for her and be there for her (everyone knew she was literally going to ghost 'em/well, leave town to be exact). It feels like a deconstruction on Filial Piety.
And like Kanji *is* queer-coded post dungeon in his social links and persona but it's sadly made into a joke in the main story which makes it seem like "he turned straight".
Personally for me it's a love-hate sort of game. I appreciate some aspects like the small town tone, the non-party social links, the mythology and certain characters (Kanji, Yukiko, Nanako especially) and the analyses and discussion around it when it's not been made into discourse. But on the other hand it seems like the story kind of wants to bash you in with insensitive humor and sometimes fanservice, and then there is the gender essentialism and the other stuff I mentioned where it sort of failed to properly conclude certain criticisms.
I can kind of see where you're coming from with Yukiko's arc. I feel like it definitely ends up in that position, that she's encouraged to take on the inn because she's recognized that the staff there love and support her, but it feels weird, because that wasn't the conflict as established. She felt stifled by her life, caged by her family inheritance, her life is depicted as a princess caged in a castle, an enviable life with no freedom. The social link starts off as a direct confrontation of that notion, her going behind her family's back to try and figure out her own independence. That the reason why she goes agree to work at the inn ultimately for a reason that is generally positive (though we cooooould really go into the weeds about class dynamics concerning that these are paid employees but we'll take the game at its word here) doesn't quite line up with the resolution of the arc as a whole. It's why she ends by kind of openly saying she wants to do this on her own terms, because that statement fully addresses what the conflict was. It's definitely not the worst arc in the game (I have many misgivings over the Devil link), but it is still pretty clearly an example of the problem that the arcs for the party members kind of bend back around full circle into society but with more self-assurance of themselves.
@@VivianAladren Holistically I see it. I mean just looking at Naoto definitely feels like a gender essentalist "OH now that she's a GIRL, GIRLY GIRL GIRL she NEEDS to practice traditional femininity and woman-ness" ending, she felt trapped in womanhood but NOW she comes around to it and naturally integrates into it because "she saw the truth". Similarly with Marie (wdym you're a god and decide to get into capitalism's workforce) and Rise (to an extent, Rise is an entertainer, that's her character but I feel like the problem is more on the lack of acknowledgement of the rampant misogyny she is throwing herself back into).
I also do want to add that to me I never read Pesona 4 as that sort of social outcasts coming together theme so I don't think it's wrong per se for the arcs to come full-circle (it's just that some of persona 4's arcs are definite flops... yeah we don't talk about the devil s.link, persona try not to be p*dophilic, challenge impossible). Like the characters are misfits but they still have "acceptable places" in society despite their misgivings with the societal issues they face. They are, sadly, normative characters which misses a lot of potential.
With Yukiko I personally felt her arc didn't fall into that sort of "conformity" resolution, partly because in her case she was the deciding factor. She wasn't someone who was "caged", her shadow's birdcage is open she just never did anything herself and it's revealed she never actually thought about communicating her feelings because she only saw the pressure of it all. With outside support, thanks to the MC in her social link, she's able to change perspective and start taking action herself, gaining independence. I don't think the actual circumstances actually matches the idea of her needing to get directly away from the inn only for it all to be a "foil" at the end. Her story also doesn't fall into the pattern of traditional conformity since she is to succeed the inn which is very girlboss (compared with irl).
*me realizing I sound like a waifu defender throwing every other character under the bus😭😭
@@veefeedscatz You're fine, I enjoy the discussion!
I think it has the highest highs and the lowest lows in any atlus game, the highs are some of the best i've encountered in any videogame, nanako and dojima are two of the best characters I've seen, but then the game also has stuff like the camping trip which just rubs me the wrong way sometimes. However it's not prominent enough to outweigh the highs for me. The game is still am 8.5 or 9/10 and I think it has the best cast of characters in the series alongside social links.
Alright persona Fandom, grab your evokers and equip your strongest personas so we can teach this catgirl- HFNHDGSGS- GOD, SORRY, CAN YOU IMAGINE?
I hope you heal whatever is in your heart bestie
@@VivianAladren I hope I get worse
"People don't understand.... Naoto's NOT trans, she is just yadda yadda yadda....."
Nah, we get that. The thing is her story has something to SAY about trans people, and it's really gross.
Great straw man I completely support trans people and like naoto and kanji story I don’t think you have to turn people into monsters if they disagree with you
@@ryanhatfield8602 You're reading a whole lot into what I wrote to take it so personally.
Since you support trans people, take the time to try to understand the way many if not most of us feel about Naoto's story. Even if you come away disagreeing in the end, take some time to see where we're coming from and sit with it a while.
@@cassiedevereaux-smith3890 I do understand stand and and if you don’t like there story that’s fine just try to understand why someone could like it without being some bad person
Naoto's issues are her own, not some universal commentary about trans people, especially since Naoto is not trans
Under no circumstance could Naoto have become male. She could never "cross the barrier of the sexes" and that message is 100% valid.
Persona 4 is my favorite game so disagree but hey that’s how opinion work
20:22 lol
i'll go a step further and say that p4 does not have better gameplay than p3 at all! the balancing makes the combat so boring and overly drawn out.
also i resent the p1 shade early on but pretty good video overall 👍 i think Rise is the only character i'd say that i find truly interesting in this game because if you do her social link you really get to see Rise and Risette form as different but real identities, reminiscent of Maki's various selves in P1, not inherently malicious, just different aspects, both very real. i think it touches fairly well on the struggle between the commodification that anybody in the entertainment industry's spotlight would face while still expressing why someone would want to push through either way.
i think it helps that Rise is the only character in the game helped by golden's extra cutscenes and really the hang out scenes in general? the concert and stuff really gives you a good sense for her emotional intelligence and leadership skills (the reason why she's a navigator) while balancing it with follies of a teenager and that ties together pretty well narratively with what i mentioned about her SL. the mechanical issues with the system still exist though that shit's ass. as much as i love P3 i wish it didn't become such a strict blueprint for the rest of the series.
I'm actually currently replaying Persona 1 and I was a little harsh on it in the video. It's incredibly charming, I am putting myself through the 5 amrbosia SQQ grind but overall I am relentlessly fond of it. Also the PSP OST is genuinely one of the best soundtracks in video game history
@@VivianAladren I can't at all agree with that last statement but I'm happy to see the P1 sweep continue 💯
Disagree heavily with this video... Persona 4's gameplay is definitely not more fun than Persona 3's :p
you passed the true test comrade
Persona 3's gameplay consists of tartarus, a mind numbingly long randomly generated dungeon that causes awful story pacing issues. At the very least p4 had the courtesy of making its dungeons short, and for that alone I'd say it's a better game.
Most of it's bosses have ailment weaknesses too so varied builds actually feel useful in boss fights.