As a bassist here's a list of the top five things that I would like from a Pianist/keys. 1. Do not play bass notes. Even world-class musicians lack the understanding of the phasing that happens in a live context. 2. Do not play bass lines. See example one 3. Do not double the bass part. See example one 4. You are almost certainly not a good bassist. See example one. 5. Do not play inversions that are in the low register. See example one Just a thought lol
Man, you got personal with this quick lol. The fact of the matter is most of recorded pop music has pianists doubling the root, not the bassline. Those two things are not the same. World class musicians absolutely do play the root, all the time.
@@andreberniermusic Fine to play the root - but if there is a bassist on stage, don't play the root down in the bassist's range. Play it at least an octave, or preferably two octaves higher. Listen to how Donald Fagen does it in Steely Dan.
Fair enough, I’m not sure you’ll find that’s how most pianists operate out in the gigging scene, in my experience. Bands should work together! Thank you for your comment
One of the BEST music videos on RUclips! I rarely write comments but I have to COMMEND this video! Really a must watch for ALL musicians in a band! As a guitarist in a band this video is greatly appreciated! Too many “busy” bassists who need to watch this video!
Uhh.. the first point.. that's not a "What Bassists shouldn't do", that's actually a "What Pianists/Keys shouldn't do" The keys player straying to the left side is actually the one who is intruding into the bassist's territory. The left side of a keyboard and the bass guitar are playing the same bass frequencies. The reason your Root and 3rd note sounding bad is actually because they are both played on the bass frequencies and the overtones are conflicting. Easily fixed by one instrument (wink: Keys) switching to a higher frequency and letting the bass have the lows (the lower the notes, the more the overtones.. the higher the notes, the less). This is the same reason the same keys players don't play full chords with just the left hand... I thought that was common knowledge for keys players.. The bassist's job is not to play the root, it is to provide foundation and to bridge the gap between Rhythm, Melody and Harmony using grooves and notes.. It is the one instrument that encompass all three aspects of music
Good bands work together, the root is a contract everybody agrees on. The bassist, pianist and even guitarist should be able to include a root in their chords to thicken the sound in MOST pop music. There’s an exception for funk and jazz of course, but those don’t follow the same rules as say, Motown or Top 40 do. Pianists can and should use their left hands to widen the depth of the sound on the bandstand, most of recorded pop music includes the left hand section of the piano. I appreciate your comment, thank you!
@@andreberniermusic It's still a little sad that it's almost always, always people commenting on what the bassist should and shouldn't do etc, why not what a key player should and shouldn't do for a future video?
I was in a band that was going to play "It's Too Late" by Carol King. We rehearsed it once and at the next rehearsal I changed the bass part completely to match the live BBC performance Carol King gave after her album took off and she gained creative control over her work. The keys player, drummer and guitarist all started ragging on me about playing too busy and I should go back to the simple part. I told them to watch and listen to Carol King's live BBC performance because I was playing that bass part. In the video she looks at the bass player with a big smile on her face and nods her approval. After that no one ever questioned anything I play.
Fellow bassist here and beginning keyboardist. I agree with everything you said in this video except for 2 things. As a fellow content creator I never want to rip down the work of another so all of this is said respectively and with the attempt to show another perspective. 1. As a bassist our job is not to hit the roots our job is to provide a foundation. Half of that foundation includes rhythm (locking in with the drummer) the other half is notes. 2. As a bassist I hate when a keyboardist is in my lane doubling notes. Why are you doubling (not you specifically)? A well timed substitution NOT during a solo (you are absolutely right about that) can completely transform a song and send it over the top. Especially a build point prior to pedaling. I'll say this and I am sure you know this CONTEXT determines everything. There are certain songs and certain gigs I would say root only than there are other settings like a black church or an RnB gig where you have to do non-root things to provide life and flavor. Excellent content and great video. You also sound killer on that bass. Your tone is epic.
Thank you for your comment! I fully agree with several points, such as that context determines everything. That’s incredibly important, a jazz gig is different than a top 40 gig is different than a gospel gig. There aren’t any hard and fast rules, and perhaps my opinions are a little broadly put 😂 The foundation thing is interesting to me, however, because every song has a framework that each member of the band is working within. This means that we’ve all agreed upon a set structure that we will adhere to, and therefore in a way there’s a “contract” of sorts that when we go to a 5 G chord on the chorus, everybody will hit that together and nobody will change it. I don’t believe the bassist has the right to change that to be a G/B any more than a pianist has a right to change that to a Gsus chord, it breaks the contract with the band. But I do agree, in some instances that contract changes. James Brown tunes have a different relationship to the root than a Coldplay song, and likewise I wouldn’t play a root on a funk tune even though I would in a pop setting. Thank you for your comment!
Great points, Andre! My rules on bass: 1) Keep the bottom, keep the bottom, keep the bottom! 2) Stay on bottom, unless you are called to take a solo! Which leads to 3) When you are holding the bottom, stay within the 7th fret! I saw a pic of a fingerboard all worn out from Fret 7 down. The message was "That's where the money is made!" 4) Since you brought up "normal listeners," remember that the "normal listener" could care less about what scales, modes and/or chords you play. Just sound good to him/her!
This is excellent, expert perspective from someone who plays both bass and piano. My unease is with the premise that when the keyboardist is playing double roots... I find too many piano players in a band setting and laying down constant double roots. That sonic spectrum belongs ot the bass and the keyboardists need to respect that more as much as they expect the bass to play its role in support.
I hear that! I don’t think that’s incorrect, setting is everything. I completely agree not every piano is appropriate for doubling bass notes, such as Fender Rhodes or Wurli. But an acoustic piano has a different timbre that doesn’t interfere nearly as much in a mix, especially when high passed ir heavily cut around 200 as they so often are live and on records. That lack of actual fundamental in an acoustic piano is also why it’s so deeply unsatisfying to hear piano walk a bass line. It’s my belief that a great bassist and a great keys player can work together to broaden the low end appropriately, and in general pianists should absolutely use their left hand.
@@andreberniermusic I feel your logic is not sound on the first point. I agree with the rest and are what I personally follow too.. with the first point, it's not the fundamental, it's the overtones of low frequency notes that creates that nasty effect. So, if the bass keeps the root and the keys plays the 3rd on low notes, that ugly effect will still take place. This is not a "bassists" should play roots only thing, this is a "musicians should not double dip into bass frequency ranges", because conflicting overtones is a bass frequency thing. If the bass is there, they can only play the bass frequency ranges so it's the Key's duty to keep out of that range. This is pretty much common knowledge man. This doesn't mean you can't ever play the Keys bass notes, but you now sparingly do so so as not to conflict with the bass. By your logic, it's like having two bass players in a band, that's not optimal.. you'd have to play the same bass parts and that's needlessly stifling to both the keys players and the bass player. Separate the frequency playing fields and have more texture in your sound OR don't use a bass player and play all the bass notes on your piano.
When the pianist is pounding out eight notes in roots an octave apart with their left hand, it means they have not properly internalized their rhythm. This is a good way to help keep time for solo pianist, it is terrible poison on the band stand.
I just started " playing bass " with my left hand on keys and this is much appreciated. It's so easy to overplay . Love your nord videos also , keep it up, dude. You are a million subscribers RUclipsr in my book !
My dad always taught that in music, less is more usually, not always, but usually... As a bass player I know that tone, feel and knowing not to overdo is extremely important, it's hard to be a great bass player in that aspect, you need to be VERY aware of the rest of the band, you gotta hold them together and still try to do some extra stuff but in specific moments.
My first lesson as a bass player, about 10 years ago, was from a killer trumpet player. 1. Learn the blues. 2. All the things you are. 3. If you play roots and fifths and can keep time, you got the gig.
100%. I’ll take a player who hits root/fifth in the bottom register over a guy shredding above the 12th fret while I’m soloing any day of the week! Thank you for your comment 🙏
This is great. I am a relatively new bassist, and it comforts me to know that I don't need to be a 'soloist' on this instrument. I subscribed to your channel and gave this thumbs up. You are quite the musician. Thanks.
It was one of my greatest concerns too, when I started up bass professionally that I would have to rip crazy solos a couple times a set. It’s still a good skill, but I can assure you, your supportiveness and ability to serve a song is 100x more important than bass solo abilities. Thank you for your comment!
Great guidance, one that every bassist should view and consume. Just because "clever" bass stuff can be done doesn't imply that it should. Also demonstrates the benefit of being able to play more than just one instrument and getting different perspectives on musical collaboration.
I think everybody should double, it really gives new perspective on how to play your main instrument most effectively. There was a whole summer I just played drums, and when I’d go to play jazz gigs on piano I would leave so much space because I would be listening to the nuance of the ride pattern so intently. It’s good to appreciate the intricacies of what your band members are doing. Thank you for your comment!
I think this is great advice for newer players, or players that are just starting out playing with a piano player. I do believe that the main goal of every instrument is to support the singer and soloist to make them sound best. A big piece of this is harmonic awareness: knowing who is playing what in any given chord and change. It’s been my experience playing bass in bands for 20+ years that keys players generally have the most musical knowledge, but the least amount of awareness: they can trample on other parts because they can play most of the piece themselves. Every gig is different but it’s been my experience that the keys player either plays the bass part or not. If they’re doubling it’s only for dramatic effect. Less is often more for everyone.
I hear that completely, I have a saying “all keys players want to rule the world” 😂 I do think there’s something to be said for overzealousness in keys players as far as range goes. We gotta be careful about that. Overall, the best bands I’ve ever been a part of are bands where everybody works together, that’s what it’s all about.
As a bassist, a pianist should not be playing in the register of the bass. If your bassist is having to pop, slap,and play dissonant notes to be heard, it's because a pianist is trampling over them. They can't just keep rolling up the treble
Even playing live a good deal on bass I’ve never had to resort to popping slapping or playing dissonant notes to be heard. I would say this is a matter of getting the amplification right on the bass side, as more volume will make it easier to play softer which is better tone-wise and hand-wise. But also, any engineer in the front of house will be rolling off a piano around 100, and cutting massively at 200hz. This is very different than how they will process the kick and the bass, which will be allowed to dominate the low end in the mix. I don’t think an acoustic piano patch should ever really be louder or more bassy than the bass, and if it is that’s the front of houses job to fix it.
You mention Miles. One of my influences is Michael Henderson from when he played with Miles. He could hang on one note and make it groove and hold everything together like no one else.
When is a new piano player i keep root .. but with friends have practice we change few chord to make smooth playing not over saturated i have to make sure they are in the same mindset.. that you envelop with time and practice together. Sometimes a new piano player would try to emulate what you do with other pianist but it would fail bc its practice what gets you there changing chords there’s theory and feelings experience for that.
I know what you’re saying, there should be a give and take with it in a rehearsal setting but I believe the root note everybody will be hitting should be firmly locked down by the time you hit any performance stage, with the exception of a jazz gig. Thank you for your comment, I sincerely appreciate it!
Got some push back in the comments from my fellow bassists! Haha As a general rule for pop / rock I'm inclined to agree with the points. The 1st one for me is sometimes hit and miss. I've sometimes introduced the 3rd instead because the tune I'm playing does that and I've had pianists look at me with dirty looks! I think you've mentioned this to other commentators but this is something that likely needs to be agreed as a group of what register people are doing, or for the bassist to listen out to what the pianist is doing. Unfortunately as a bassist, you'll likely to get the blame when it could be the keys at fault. If your changing the chord entirely, like playing an A over a Cmaj then 100% agree. I would like to see more pianists making room for bassists though. Guess this maybe more genre dependent, where things like shell voicing's are more familiar in Jazz.
Can I suggest a fourth "Do" and that's be prepared to stop/leave space. As long as the rest of the musicians know you're going to come back in, hit the first note of a bar and then leave the other beats silent. Or drop out for an entire run through the chord sequence. Creates unbelievable drama when you come back in.
Really good video tho there’s a sneaky caveat to rule #1 - I notice that a lot of pianists I play with imply certain inversions anyway that if a bass player catches (e.g playing the relative minor of major chords, once every 8 bars) it always brightens their day and honestly in a free jam session where everyone’s stuck in an infinitely long static vamp, inverting to a four does feel like finding water in a desert 😂
As a bassist, composer, arranger, and occasional band leader, I'm going to have to reiterate something some else said: DO NOT DOUBLE THE F***ING BASS PART!!!! Let the bassist do their job. And sometimes that means NOT playing the root. Not sure about that one? Listen to James Jamerson. Better yet, listen closely to Niels Henning Orsted Pederson playing with Oscar Peterson, and tell me do you hear the piano doubling the bass? Leading tones matter. Grace notes matter. Sometimes articulating chord voicings with arpeggiations, especially extensions matter. Of course not all the time, but those things are spicing and flavor, and used sparingly will make or break the tune. As for as counterpoint, contrary, or unison motion goes, again, that also is flavor. And yes, of course, as a part of the rhythm section, going apesh*t in the middles of someone else's solo is just kind of rude. In a lot of cases, the bass really should be, for the most part, just giving the kick drum a pitch, along with the occasional push or pull, but as with anything, it depends on the context in the moment. The bass is what defines the chord. You're playing a B and G above that. Depending on where I'm trying to lead things to, I could play an E two octaves below that, a C, an A, an F, a D, and none of those are wrong depending on what we play next. Technically, any of those ARE the root. Bass is, in large part, what defines the dynamics at any given point in a tune. During a solo, the bass leave plenty of room for the soloist, but also move with them dynamically. Tension and resolution. Just like a keyboardist should be comping chords here and there during a solo, so should the bass add just a little here and there. Figuring out what works best is often a case of trying things while working a tune out, hearing what does NOT work, and avoiding that later. Turns out that sometimes, maybe even most times, that doesn't mean camping out on the first 5 frets of the B string. Except under very specific circumstances, I'd call that a rookie move, as would a lot of seasoned cats. Those notes, especially when coming through a BIG sound system, tend to be very fatiguing on the listener, so again, best used sparingly. And most importantly ; ALWAYS DO WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THE TUNE. Not your ego the tune.
My only complaint is that you didn’t release this sooner. I just got booted from a band cause i was trying to figure out this approach. This was what i needed. Thanks!
Hey, life is all about learning! Everybody needs a bassist, as they say, keep your hands in shape and I’m sure you’ll be back supporting bands in no time 🫡🫡 Thank you for your comment!
If the pianist is staying off my bass notes, then I can sub!!! Context context context. Everyone goes nuts when the bassists slashes in gospel! It’s the best!
Gospel is for sure a different thing! Although in most of those churches the pianist is the MD, and they are using their left hand suuuuper hard lol. But yeah I played a gospel gig for three years on B3 in Nashville, for sure it makes sense to stay out of that bass range in gospel to me. I would say jazz, funk and gospel are times to lay out the left hand on keys.
@@andreberniermusic this is a really great video man, I’m always interested how players of different instruments are effected by the bass player. Thanks!
Thank you. As a drummer, when the bassist is off it really distracts me. The perfect bassist for me is the one I don’t notice. Their presence is just felt. Every now and then they do a nice run or comp but just being steady, have a great feel and being non intrusive is so important.
100%. Victor Wooten has a fantastic quote: “A good bassist is like the foundation of a house. If it’s sound, you won’t notice it.” Couldn’t agree more. Thank you for your comment!
@@andreberniermusic That's a nice quote, but seriously - does anyone ever NOT notice Victor when he's playing bass? And I am not talking about solos, I am talking about his actual bass lines, perhaps most notably with the Flecktones. He played distinctive, iconic bass lines that, while certainly anchoring the songs, they also added significant harmonic color and strong rhythmic movement to them as well. Quotations are cute, but actually listen to his recorded work and I think that tells a different story.
I value this video/perspective. I’m frankly a bit embarrassed of some of these comments disagreeing with you, as they are NOT keys players. I mean what the heck do they know? Here’s a key player offering insight to bassists and they’re going to argue?? Humble yourselves out and learn, and maybe you’ll have more gigs and not have the time to make moronic comments.
5:00 - ''Fat Bottom Bass You Make'' More Pushin' for dah Cushin'! - Been seeing lots of videos like this one lately,...gives me hope that ''Motown Mojo'' is making a comeback. 🎯🙏✌️🙏🎯
After reading the debate in the comments I would like to say some things to maybe lighten it up as I see a point in both sides. I'm a bassist who also plays guitar, ukulele and a tiny bit of keyboard. I feel like that in music there are different roles that people need to stick with However, I do believe that the instruments can switch roles. Guitars can take a step back and let the bass do more work. I feel like you correct on a lot of points but i feel like you are a bit too narrow minded on music and what you expect from a bassist. Everyone plays the root sure, but a keyboard comes closer to the bass fequencies than a guitar so a keyboard interfeers a bit more with the bass than a guitar my friend. If keys get to close to bass than it forces us to move a tiny bit closer to guitar by adding more mid-range which might upset a guitar player. It's fine to be more concervative in your taste in music and playing but you're not in the right to judge other musicians who are more inventive. If you get a musician who's playing you don't like, just look for a new one who's playing you do like. In my view, I play bass in two bands at the moment and one is a cover band, a 5-piece with rythm and lead guitar who feel up quite some space so I take a more background approach and leave enough space for the guitar players only taking up space here and there for pedal effects like a wah effect for a funk song or chorus on some 80's pop songs. The other band is a 3-piece where I share lead vocal duties with the guitarist. In a 3-piece you only have the basic ellements so all 3 have to up their game so have a more dominent approuch being louder in the mix. On songs where my guitarist sings I provide a solid in your face bass sound to support him and on songs where I sing I take back a step on bass and have the guitarist provide a sollid sound to carry me. The reason why i share this is to teach mucisians that every band in every genre is different, it's your job as a mucisian (not just bassist) to find your space in every band in whatever music genre. That's why I have 2 different approuches on bass because the two bands are completely diffrent from one another so I have to change roles and approuch the bands in different ways as you as a mucisian should too.
Fair enough! Different situations call for different players, for sure. There’s no one size fits all with music, that’s completely true. Thank you for your comment!
I've played with some keyboard players that were playing a lot of low notes (that's ok if done sparingly) but also bass transition licks from chord to chord, when that is most certainly my job. Just don't! Drives me crazy when they do that, that is the bassist job and part. Period. Otherwise don't have a bassist in the band and let the keyboard player do it all. I have seen groups do that with good keyboard players playing both parts simultaneously (bass riffs/transitions and actual key stuff). It's fine, just don't call a bass player in that case. With that said, I agree with the rest of your points, especially the play less and support others in general and especially when they are soloing.
I picked a confusing tune to demonstrate it on, as it goes between two keys on that bridge section. A pedal point is just holding the 5 chord of the key over whatever section you’re in, no matter what the harmony above you is doing. It creates a nice tension and release. Thank you for your comment!
I think there is validity to the idea that piano, like guitar, might play in the same pitch range as a bass but with different timbre, so why not "fill in the sound"... maybe a genre thing to some extent, like anyone from a jazz background is going to leave space there for the bassist but rock loves filling in that sound. But sometimes what you're really doing is creating a problem for the sound guy to fix. So the question is: why are you making sound that needs to be removed? Is playing too loud to "fill out the sound" okay, since the sound guy can turn you down? You get what I mean; that's one thing in the studio when you can mix to heart's content but on a gig, my advice would be: play like mixing doesn't exist...
Video: do not change the root because if a piano is doubling the bass... Me*screaming* : STOP PLAYING BASS NOTES WHEN THERE'S A BASS PLAYER. ok on a serious note: if i am playing a standard in a jam session with 3 soloists+ piano of course the piano will not constantly (if ever) play root notes, and putting inversions on the one now and then will be the only way to avoid repeating myself and getting bored and boring. I recommend listening to Scott LaFaro for reference
You’re talking about jazz, which is certainly a different set of rules overall. However, there are many, many pianists that play roots in a jazz context, McCoy Tyner and Erroll Garner being prime examples. If we’re just talking about Scott LaFaro that requires a more nuanced conversation, as their entire goal of that group was interplay within a trio context, which is different than what MOST musicians would want from you at say, a jam session or a standards gig. I think you’d find most people are expecting basslines like Paul Chambers and Ron Carter, not Scott LaFaro, in a professional context. You can say I’m wrong but that’s my experience. It doesn’t mean that LaFaro is worse, it’s just a completely different style and one that had to be honed in a group context before hand. People expect you to lock down the root and the quarter note FIRST, everything else comes separate. Overall I don’t think pianists should play roots in jazz, however, I agree rootless voicings are the sound for that. But it’s not a never, just a general good practice.
@@andreberniermusic It's all in context. Of course if i am playing in a rec session with people i don't know i tend to stick to the established root, but if the vibe is right and we go from "making it work" to creativity, i can spice it up and most of the times it goes well. I might be wrong but concerning the mcoy Tyner case, consonance might not be a priority oftentimes and if there are some dissonances between bass and the piano low notes, it might be kind of "in the vibe". I have to listen to it closelier tho. Thanks for the inputs
Yo. So I think you did a good job with this video. And I'd like to exercise my privilege to throw my two cents in the pot. lol. I'll go point by point. DON'Ts 1) I uhhhh.....think this one is debatable. Not wrong, but just debatable. I won't beat the dead horse of "pianos shouldn't be doubling up in the first place." I play bass at church and I have to deal with that every now and again, but I just work with it because sometimes that's my guide. So I just kinda deal with it. Lol. I'm tolerant like that, and I don't like to stress my bandmates out sometimes. Regardless, I got two main qualms with this one (forgive me). First, I don't think it's too fair to "take away" the right to change the root. I understand that you aren't being a hardass with this rule, and you did acknowledge that it's great in the right context. I think you're a better bassist than me, so I won't do you that dirty by misconstruing your point. Lol. But if the bass player proves that he's capable and committed to supporting the group as much as possible, I think he should have the right to do what he wants (within reason, within reason), because 9/10 it's gonna work and serve the group. As long as he doesn't abuse the leeway, he should be allowed to use the leeway. But that's just me. And worst case scenario, what he does probably won't muck everything up to the point where it's all just complete garbo. So if a bassist understands the assignment, the "changing of the root" is awesome at best and forgivable at worst imo. Second (and this is personal opinion because I'm not the most versed in music theory), the bassist may not actually be changing the root, but using a different note in the triad that's based off the root, and sometimes that's a very viable option (church has definitely used this! Think resolving on the 3 instead of the 1, but the 3 is in the triad based on the 1. In other words, the song ain't over yet!!!). That's why I put "changing the root" in quotes; it was a set-up! Lol. Jokes aside, the root is implied. So the bass player isn't really changing the root in most cases, but rather changing the movement, which is warranted sometimes (he shouldn't overdo it, but still). Now if he throws a tritone where a 5 should be, that's where things can get hairy, because everyone needs to be on the same page in order to not step on anyone's toes. But you get the idea. 2) For the most part, I agree. But I'd say keep playing busy on standby just in case you need it (and there will be times when you will, speaking from experience). Not so busy to where you muck up the feel and the groove; there's an art to playing busy. But just enough to where you can take the energy of the song up. Plus, there are note choices that are safer than others when you want to step up the busy (like going to the octave or the fifth instead of the 2 or 3). Instead of actually moving the song, it's kinda like moving in place; you move to keep interest, but not enough to disturb the groove, if that makes sense. Like, arpeggiating when the situation calls for it, for example. Quasi-movement type ish. Lol. And for solo situations, you do want to stay out of the way as a bass player, but some more flavorful choices can help the moment as long as it's not overdone. One of my bass heros that's a good example of this is Pino Palladino when he plays with the John Mayer Trio. He throws his licks and runs in very tasteful spots. And these runs, including on the solos, serve a dual purpose: not only does he compliment John's soloing in a very lit way, but he also "fills in" the harmonic space John has to leave when he takes to the skies (at least, that's what I observed). When I grow up, I wanna be just like Pino. (I know that we mere mortals can't pull of the Pino if we ain't got the skill for it, and I know he doesn't overplay if the situation doesn't need it, but it's not a bad bar to aim for. I wanna compliment a soloist and a song like he can.) 3) Follows from point 2. You play too busy, you affect the feel. Gotta keep that pocket consistent. No qualms here. DOs 1) I agree with this. I acknowledge any exceptions, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. Even if you wanna hit da Pino Palladino, holding down that low-end is important. I can't hit the Billy Sheehan and take the high registers with the other instruments just yet. Lol. 2) I've heard of pedal tones before, but I don't understand them. Pardon my ignorance, but can I get someone to explain it to me (preferrably like I'm 5)? 3) You are dead right about elongation. It's a VERY useful tool to either take the energy up or smooth things out. I like to mix this up with shortening the notes when I play, because people will feel the contrast. And that lets me set the energy in a good handful of cases. For example, I may do one section or loop of a section with elongated notes, and do a section with short notes to add some space in the feel. (Don't worry, I do this when I have the leeway.) Overall, I have learned quite a bit from this. And one of the key things I've learned is that as a bass player, it's important to ask these things upfront where you can. Points 1 and 2 in the don't section specifically are points I'll be sure to ask about. Communication can help out those points drastically, because everyone can compare philosophies, see what everyone else has in their minds, and go from there. I'll know how much leeway I have. Me: "So is me complimenting you on the solo good? As in, not overplaying you, but spicing things up with a Pino type of vibe? I can play an example with you." Pianist: "Nah, I know what you mean. But I'd rather you didn't. Because when I do my solo work, I'm crafting it based on the root notes you're holding down, and I want that space there to emphasize everything." Me: "Aight. Bet. I'll keep the roots like Groot." Pianist: "Cool beans." Sorry in advance for the long post. I am struggling to be concise. But feel free to let me know what you think. Thanks again.
I actually agree with everything you’ve said here! I think Gospel is a completely different thing than most other genres when it comes to roles, there’s a deep improvisational thing to that genre that isn’t the same as say, top 40 or pop. I would put Jazz, Funk and Gospel in a different category than other genres in terms of piano/bass relationship. This is more addressing the “wedding band/top 40” style. I used to play B3 for a Gospel church for three years and you’re so correct about changing the root, that happens all the time in church. As for pedal points, simply put you’re holding the 5 of whatever key you’re in, regardless of what happens harmonically above it. Since 5 to 1 is the most common and satisfying resolution to our ears 5 is a safe bet to create tension, and returning to the ordinary root notes serves as a release, especially if you return on the 1 chord. Thank you for your comment! 🙏
@@andreberniermusic Ooooh. So THAT'S what pedaling is! Imma use that trick when I have the opportunity! Thanks for defining that! And you played B3?!??? As in Hammond B3?!??? Nice!!!!!! I already had mad respect for you, but now it doubled! That instrument is no joke. You have to know calculus just to turn it on, let alone using it. 🤣🤣🤣 I'm scared of piano, and I'm even more scared of the organ. I'll learn piano before that one, because sheesh that's a lot to utilize. 😅 And I also see what you mean here too. Another point of interest is that a long time ago, there was rumors that the funk has died and was kept alive by only a small handful of spots after a certain point (I don't believe that at all, because I don't think things actually die; they just sleep or relocate temporarily imo). But the church was mentioned to be one of the spots the funk was kept alive......and I believe that wholeheartedly, because gospel is a mix of many styles, but one of its main styles is _sanctified_ funk. Lol. Thanks again for the props. Much appreciated for the video and the response! 😁👍
From the perspective of the NOT-jazz bass player: dear keypressers, please, find a better place for your left hand to be during performance than on the keyboard. For example, try to hover over the oscillation and modulation control knobs, maybe, you know, just to add flavor to that sound you're making and, for god's sake, please, keep this low frequencies for those in real charge for them. And speaking about "playing busy" - Muse still have the best basslines in the world and of all times, and, oh man, these basslines are "busy" af. But, the point is - play what are you supposed to play by the song's arrangement. Don't improvise or pretend that you know better than a songwriter who wrote the piece and you'll be fine. That goes for every musician in a band, btw.
Good bands work together! It depends on the keys patch of course, when you say oscillation knob I think synth, and I COMPLETELY agree synth shouldn’t double bass. Same for organ and Rhodes. But in general, a pianist on an acoustic piano doubling the root is completely normal and in fact, what most of recorded pop music adheres to. The root is a contract, everybody should be able to hit it on the downbeat together, and with their different timbres that is how the band will sound massive.
@@andreberniermusic That's maybe a matter of taste. When I create an arrangemend for my band, and we need to use piano sound, I tend to exclude the note the bassist plays at the time from the chord that keyboardist plays. Thus giving them both space to be and retaining that harmonic idea.
I wouldn't know because although I have a few years of experience with bass, I only have one or two experiences on stage with a bass and have had verry few improv sesions but couldn't you just ask your band about what they want insted of assuming
I think he's talking about improv aspects of playing, a lot of bands, especially Jazz and related genres, don't have an exact set that they play through every night bar for bar, so this would be super useful then
This is a great point! In a band setting you’d have time to develop a relationship between members musically, but in many instances on a scene you’ll be thrown in at the deep end without any prior discussion or rehearsal. These are my guidelines for the latter, I would say these are my loose “rules” for what works in a band setting. It varies gig to gig, but in general this is my experience.
One advise I got from a teacher is that "the person who is going to hire you as a bass player is not a bass player", so take opinion of non bass players very serious.
No, that’s such a good point. I’m also a huge proponent for dragging a splice loop into a session and playing along to drums for shedding! Thank you for your comment!
@@andreberniermusic oh cause my friend that I played with at a church he has got all these music degrees and plays like to sin abasi he gave me charts for rehearsal And told Me when I'm On bass always play the note on the right of the slash
@@andreberniermusic I guess I will just try both and see what sounds best.. oh also in church music sometimes I play roots and it just doesn't blend but I guess it's kind of a dissonance
You should listen to a lot of Phish You could learn a ton about how this works. You’re a great musician but, as most young people do, assume that your personal perspective has to be the correct one.
Excellent video, love the perspective that you're coming from and covering here. As a bassist, I'll add my two cents in here though. With your three don'ts, all three of those fall under one rule for me: Know Your Role. In the case of your three don'ts, that role would be you are the root of the chords, you need to be supportive, and keep it simple. That's a common role and it should be a comfortable one, and if it's boring to you as a bass player, you need to find the beauty in simplicity. However, I wouldn't maintain those three don'ts in every situation because that might not be your role in every situation. But they are the basic, standard role for the bass, so it's a great foundation to build on. However, as the bass player in that situation, I would feel limited and unappreciated and I wouldn't stay in that gig long. You should be able to get that from any bass player, so why would you want me? Plus, what am I getting out of that situation? I'm not learning, I'm not growing, I'm not expanding my knowledge and capabilities. I'm a cashier at a grocery store that can easily be replaced with a self-checkout machine. Even a great paycheck and top notch amenities isn't going to make up for the musical stagnation at some point. I won't need or want to practice the material on my own and I'll have to look outside of the gig for my musical satisfaction. Now, I'm not saying I want to reharmonize everything, rip all over the tunes, and have complete freedom to do whatever I want whenever I want. I do know and embrace my role, but there is a line where it can feel restrictive and counter-intuitive, especially in jazz where I ideally should be listening and reacting with the ensemble. A good bass player can still be supportive and keep things simple while also being reactive and musical. I see it more often with drummers than bassists though. Every composer just wants the drummer to play the beat they wrote, and every drummer wants to react and play what they hear and feel. They want to subdivide and syncopate, they want to challenge themselves and the ensemble and throw some chops into their fills and grooves. So few of them want to be Charlie Watts, and that's why drummers like Charlie Watts are so special. And your three do's are great as well for defining when and how to step out from the ultra simple, ultra supportive role. Although again, from a bass player's perspective I would feel like it would be completely ignoring what I bring to the table from my influences, my reactions and my abilities and I would again ask why you would want me for the gig when you can just write out every note of the gig and get someone to just read it off of the page. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but the examples you gave of the various players you mentioned brought those qualities to the table with their hands and ears, it wasn't dictated to them as boundaries or even suggestions. Your example of "when I go up, you go down" is a great tip for most situations and I don't think a lot of bass players realize how this gives more space for the soloist while introducing counterpoint and contrary motion. I'd like to expand on your third do: elongate. I would include this in a group how you get into a note, how long you hold the note, and how you get out of the note. Approach, sustain and recede. I've played with soloists who want a certain structure to what they're soloing over, so my note choices and rhythms are locked in place. But how I approach, sustain and recede from those notes are where I get to contribute. It all depends on the genre of course, but in rock, metal or pop situations there often isn't a lot of room for deviation from the expected part. The parts are often identical with each iteration and there's not nearly as much room for improvisation and interpretation as some other genres. So our only method of variation is how we play the necessary parts without disrupting the flow. So in essence, I don't disagree with anything here, in fact I agree with all of it completely, but hopefully there's a little insight here as to the perspective of a bass player. It can feel underappreciated and micromanaged and in some cases it's expected, while in others it's boring and limited. A lot comes down to perspective and maturity. A young player with a lot of talent is probably going to want to burn brightly, while an experienced veteran might see these things as, "well, duh." I was never the type of bass player to burn under someone else's solo, but any time the arrangement breaks out of a unison part where I'm much more audible and and free I'm definitely adding a little more spice to the stew. Usually with a little grease on the way in and out of notes, a little vibrato and note length changes here and there, and a little more development around what the drummer is doing. Especially in a rock/metal situation with only one guitarist, where I feel like I have more space to fill with the lack of a rhythm guitar part. Not in a Cream/Sabbath sort of way, where it's solo time and we all get to rip, but more of a "now that I'm not obscured by guitars and vocals, here's a little taste of me and my sound underneath, keeping it interesting on my side of the stage without a look what I can do moment." Oh, one more bit before I go: Excellent insight about that low B. I tune my B string up to a C for the exact reason you pointed out. That low B can get really blurry and just rumbly, while that low C still holds together for some reason. Also, a lot of piano/keyboard players often think in C as opposee to B. Obviously it all depends on the key of the song, but in my limited keyboard experience, B is a weird key and is in a weird place on the keyboard. In more guitar based music, it makes sense because a lot of guitarists center on that low E string or tune it down to D, where that B can come in handy. But I find I'd rather have that lower support note for the III in Emin or the VII in Dmin progressions than for the I/V of E or the VI in D. And the fingering differences are only one half step off from the usual fretboard geometry so they're not too strange or uncomfortable.
All great points! I agree completely. I think the point about “growing” is interesting, I might even counter that the bandstand isn’t necessarily the place for growth (at least in a pop context). The bandstand is the place to JUST serve the song, for everybody. I’m not saying the bassist can’t play some cool fill once in a while, god knows I do 😂 but it’s everybody’s job to present the song exactly how it needs to be done, as opposed to just keeping themselves from being bored. That to me is what practice is for, and of course, soloing. Now with that said, jazz and fusion are entirely different animals and you need to separate them. I do think the bandstand can be a place to try new shit there, but really the traditional rules kind of go out the window with those genres. Thank you for your well thought out comment, I appreciate you taking the time to make those points!
@@andreberniermusic I don't disagree at all that the bandstand/stage isn't necessarily the place for growth, although I would certainly say that the bandstage/stage is where I've figured out where a lot of things have and have not worked. Where no matter how much I've practiced something, some things just don't work well onstage and I've had to find another method to convey the same notes/feeling/vibe. Earlier in my career, practicing led what I was playing onstage whereas later playing onstage led what I needed to be practicing. And as for being bored and keeping from being bored, I guess I could clarify that in some way. If it's just one gig or a handful of gigs, it's really not a big deal. But if it's more than that, if the commitment and required time and dedication is longer and I'm filling a position as a regular then that's where feelings of being limited and unappreciated would come in. I had a friend who was in the Nashville system for a while, playing and touring with a lot of big name country musicians for a long time. He settled down in the Pigeon Forge area and had a regular gig at a theater there, playing pretty much the entire history of country music two to three times a day, six days a week, and he was bored shitless. Sitting on a stool in the darkened area of the stage with the other bored musicians, never deviating a single note from the charts. Granted, I've seen them a dozen or so times and none of them every made even the tiniest mistake, but there was never a moment of improvisation and creativity from anyone but the "stars" they were playing behind. Although I'm physically and technically capable of playing that gig, I don't think I could ever be mentally and creatively capable of doing that more than a handful of times.
Great video Real quick though, the keyboardist doubling the root defo would make certain substitutions done by bassists sound ridiculous. My two cents: let the bassist have control of the low range, a good bassist would know when to make proper substitutions that would uplift the song (be that a 3 over 1, or anything else).
A song is a contract. If the most effective chord is 1/3 instead of 1, that should be agreed on before hand. It’s not that a bassist can never divert from the root, it’s more that everybody should be on the same guidelines. Like it or not, keyboardists will be playing the roots. If done properly this can thicken the band and make the base bigger for everybody. Bands should work together! Just my two cents, that’s just my experience. This also varies by genre, jazz funk and gospel can sometimes throw these rules out, so it’s all case specific. Thank you for your comment!
Good bands work together. A song is a contact, it’s a structure everybody has agreed to before hand. The best bands find what works best and commit, in my experience. Thickening the sound of the group overall is more important than spur of the moment choices by the bassist. Just my two cents, cheers and thank you for your comment!
It depends on how your musical knowledge and tastes. Drums and Bass are the backbone of the entire band. Nothing is worse than a lousy drummer and an off-key bass player. We can avoid the root note as long as we are not routing the entire band in the other direction. Bassists determine the harmony of the song with monopoly melodic lines rhythmically. The whole point is to serve the song.
I agree with everything you said! Somebody like Jameson was amazing at diving all around the line but always came back to the root consistently. Something like “I Was Made To Love Her” is a great example of this. If you’re hitting those roots on the downbeats, the piano can double them too without it getting woofy. It’s generally only when bassists miss that downbeat root in favor of too much movement that it becomes a mess. The whole point is certainly to serve the songs, as you said.
I have a lot of trouble playing music with piano players because I always just rock music and just arms. I don't like the sounds of pianos. I don't like the big giant they try to do like church and stuff.
Sort of! The bassist can absolutely divert from a planned line, but I love having a planned line as a reference. It’s good to learn recordings as close and possible and then use that as a jumping off point to divert and return to. Check out the Vulf video for “I Was Made To Love Her” for a great example of how you can use motifs while being improvisational within the lines. Thank you for your comment!
Jazz is its own thing, but there are plenty of pianists who employ the root note in their playing, McCoy Tyner and Erroll Garner being two examples. Context is everything, but in general rootless voicings are better for jazz. This video is really about gigs in other modern styles, mainly pop and top 40.
It’s a great question! The simple answer is it’s incredibly satisfying when coupled with a bass playing the root. Give a listen to “A Love Supreme” and you’ll hear McCoy Tyner slamming roots and fifths under his voicings. Give a listen to Elton John and you’ll hear him doing the same thing in a completely different context. CCM music is full of low piano voicings in 10ths which double and ride on top of the bass note. Bands should work together! It’s not every man for himself out there, it should be a cohesive unit working towards the same goal. Thank you for your comment!
He is right most of the time, yet why sounding so pretentious? Wanna speak about how the piano could be annoying for all of the other instruments in the spectrum?
As a bassist here's a list of the top five things that I would like from a Pianist/keys.
1. Do not play bass notes. Even world-class musicians lack the understanding of the phasing that happens in a live context.
2. Do not play bass lines. See example one
3. Do not double the bass part. See example one
4. You are almost certainly not a good bassist. See example one.
5. Do not play inversions that are in the low register. See example one
Just a thought lol
Exactly.
Man, you got personal with this quick lol. The fact of the matter is most of recorded pop music has pianists doubling the root, not the bassline. Those two things are not the same. World class musicians absolutely do play the root, all the time.
@@andreberniermusic Fine to play the root - but if there is a bassist on stage, don't play the root down in the bassist's range. Play it at least an octave, or preferably two octaves higher. Listen to how Donald Fagen does it in Steely Dan.
To my key-playing friends, stay in your lane!
This comment. 100%.
What I want from a pianist is not to play the bass notes.
Fair enough, I’m not sure you’ll find that’s how most pianists operate out in the gigging scene, in my experience. Bands should work together! Thank you for your comment
😂 good one!
Sounds reasonable, know the chords, be supportive, listen. So in short, do the opposite of guitar players.
As a guitar player, I have never been more offended by something I completely agree with
Hahahaha you don’t even know buddy my guitarists man 😂
Ha!😂
One of the BEST music videos on RUclips! I rarely write comments but I have to COMMEND this video! Really a must watch for ALL musicians in a band! As a guitarist in a band this video is greatly appreciated! Too many “busy” bassists who need to watch this video!
Thank you so much! That’s incredibly kind of you 🙏
Uhh.. the first point.. that's not a "What Bassists shouldn't do", that's actually a "What Pianists/Keys shouldn't do"
The keys player straying to the left side is actually the one who is intruding into the bassist's territory. The left side of a keyboard and the bass guitar are playing the same bass frequencies. The reason your Root and 3rd note sounding bad is actually because they are both played on the bass frequencies and the overtones are conflicting. Easily fixed by one instrument (wink: Keys) switching to a higher frequency and letting the bass have the lows (the lower the notes, the more the overtones.. the higher the notes, the less). This is the same reason the same keys players don't play full chords with just the left hand... I thought that was common knowledge for keys players..
The bassist's job is not to play the root, it is to provide foundation and to bridge the gap between Rhythm, Melody and Harmony using grooves and notes.. It is the one instrument that encompass all three aspects of music
Good bands work together, the root is a contract everybody agrees on. The bassist, pianist and even guitarist should be able to include a root in their chords to thicken the sound in MOST pop music. There’s an exception for funk and jazz of course, but those don’t follow the same rules as say, Motown or Top 40 do. Pianists can and should use their left hands to widen the depth of the sound on the bandstand, most of recorded pop music includes the left hand section of the piano.
I appreciate your comment, thank you!
@@andreberniermusic It's still a little sad that it's almost always, always people commenting on what the bassist should and shouldn't do etc, why not what a key player should and shouldn't do for a future video?
I think you just want a bassist to play along with you.
I was in a band that was going to play "It's Too Late" by Carol King. We rehearsed it once and at the next rehearsal I changed the bass part completely to match the live BBC performance Carol King gave after her album took off and she gained creative control over her work. The keys player, drummer and guitarist all started ragging on me about playing too busy and I should go back to the simple part. I told them to watch and listen to Carol King's live BBC performance because I was playing that bass part. In the video she looks at the bass player with a big smile on her face and nods her approval. After that no one ever questioned anything I play.
Fellow bassist here and beginning keyboardist. I agree with everything you said in this video except for 2 things. As a fellow content creator I never want to rip down the work of another so all of this is said respectively and with the attempt to show another perspective.
1. As a bassist our job is not to hit the roots our job is to provide a foundation. Half of that foundation includes rhythm (locking in with the drummer) the other half is notes.
2. As a bassist I hate when a keyboardist is in my lane doubling notes. Why are you doubling (not you specifically)? A well timed substitution NOT during a solo (you are absolutely right about that) can completely transform a song and send it over the top. Especially a build point prior to pedaling. I'll say this and I am sure you know this CONTEXT determines everything. There are certain songs and certain gigs I would say root only than there are other settings like a black church or an RnB gig where you have to do non-root things to provide life and flavor.
Excellent content and great video. You also sound killer on that bass. Your tone is epic.
Thank you for your comment! I fully agree with several points, such as that context determines everything. That’s incredibly important, a jazz gig is different than a top 40 gig is different than a gospel gig. There aren’t any hard and fast rules, and perhaps my opinions are a little broadly put 😂 The foundation thing is interesting to me, however, because every song has a framework that each member of the band is working within. This means that we’ve all agreed upon a set structure that we will adhere to, and therefore in a way there’s a “contract” of sorts that when we go to a 5 G chord on the chorus, everybody will hit that together and nobody will change it. I don’t believe the bassist has the right to change that to be a G/B any more than a pianist has a right to change that to a Gsus chord, it breaks the contract with the band. But I do agree, in some instances that contract changes. James Brown tunes have a different relationship to the root than a Coldplay song, and likewise I wouldn’t play a root on a funk tune even though I would in a pop setting. Thank you for your comment!
Great points, Andre! My rules on bass: 1) Keep the bottom, keep the bottom, keep the bottom! 2) Stay on bottom, unless you are called to take a solo! Which leads to 3) When you are holding the bottom, stay within the 7th fret! I saw a pic of a fingerboard all worn out from Fret 7 down. The message was "That's where the money is made!" 4) Since you brought up "normal listeners," remember that the "normal listener" could care less about what scales, modes and/or chords you play. Just sound good to him/her!
THIS. You are so correct. The 7th fret and below is the absolute sweet spot, and where I’m trying to be 90% of the time. Thank you for your comment!
Sorry....I move around....not just up to the 7th fret.....🤷♂️
My rule is stop trying to control the bassist
This is excellent, expert perspective from someone who plays both bass and piano. My unease is with the premise that when the keyboardist is playing double roots... I find too many piano players in a band setting and laying down constant double roots. That sonic spectrum belongs ot the bass and the keyboardists need to respect that more as much as they expect the bass to play its role in support.
I hear that! I don’t think that’s incorrect, setting is everything. I completely agree not every piano is appropriate for doubling bass notes, such as Fender Rhodes or Wurli. But an acoustic piano has a different timbre that doesn’t interfere nearly as much in a mix, especially when high passed ir heavily cut around 200 as they so often are live and on records. That lack of actual fundamental in an acoustic piano is also why it’s so deeply unsatisfying to hear piano walk a bass line. It’s my belief that a great bassist and a great keys player can work together to broaden the low end appropriately, and in general pianists should absolutely use their left hand.
@@andreberniermusic I feel your logic is not sound on the first point. I agree with the rest and are what I personally follow too.. with the first point, it's not the fundamental, it's the overtones of low frequency notes that creates that nasty effect. So, if the bass keeps the root and the keys plays the 3rd on low notes, that ugly effect will still take place. This is not a "bassists" should play roots only thing, this is a "musicians should not double dip into bass frequency ranges", because conflicting overtones is a bass frequency thing. If the bass is there, they can only play the bass frequency ranges so it's the Key's duty to keep out of that range. This is pretty much common knowledge man.
This doesn't mean you can't ever play the Keys bass notes, but you now sparingly do so so as not to conflict with the bass. By your logic, it's like having two bass players in a band, that's not optimal.. you'd have to play the same bass parts and that's needlessly stifling to both the keys players and the bass player. Separate the frequency playing fields and have more texture in your sound OR don't use a bass player and play all the bass notes on your piano.
When the pianist is pounding out eight notes in roots an octave apart with their left hand, it means they have not properly internalized their rhythm. This is a good way to help keep time for solo pianist, it is terrible poison on the band stand.
As a bass player this useful information… keep it up andre!
Thank you, will do!
I just started " playing bass " with my left hand on keys and this is much appreciated. It's so easy to overplay .
Love your nord videos also , keep it up, dude. You are a million subscribers RUclipsr in my book !
I sincerely appreciate that, thank you so much!
My dad always taught that in music, less is more usually, not always, but usually...
As a bass player I know that tone, feel and knowing not to overdo is extremely important, it's hard to be a great bass player in that aspect, you need to be VERY aware of the rest of the band, you gotta hold them together and still try to do some extra stuff but in specific moments.
Extremely well put! It’s not that there’s never a time to go off, it’s just in general our role is to be supportive. Thank you for your comment! 🙏
My first lesson as a bass player, about 10 years ago, was from a killer trumpet player. 1. Learn the blues. 2. All the things you are. 3. If you play roots and fifths and can keep time, you got the gig.
100%. I’ll take a player who hits root/fifth in the bottom register over a guy shredding above the 12th fret while I’m soloing any day of the week! Thank you for your comment 🙏
I love it when the keys player tells me what I should and shouldn’t do.
My guy, it’s literally the premise of the video 😂
Thanks for sharing this! As a bass player, I agree with those points. Staying away from flashy stuff goes a long way most of the times!
It’s our job to support! 🫡 Thank you for your comment!
This is great. I am a relatively new bassist, and it comforts me to know that I don't need to be a 'soloist' on this instrument. I subscribed to your channel and gave this thumbs up. You are quite the musician. Thanks.
It was one of my greatest concerns too, when I started up bass professionally that I would have to rip crazy solos a couple times a set. It’s still a good skill, but I can assure you, your supportiveness and ability to serve a song is 100x more important than bass solo abilities. Thank you for your comment!
Great guidance, one that every bassist should view and consume. Just because "clever" bass stuff can be done doesn't imply that it should. Also demonstrates the benefit of being able to play more than just one instrument and getting different perspectives on musical collaboration.
I think everybody should double, it really gives new perspective on how to play your main instrument most effectively. There was a whole summer I just played drums, and when I’d go to play jazz gigs on piano I would leave so much space because I would be listening to the nuance of the ride pattern so intently. It’s good to appreciate the intricacies of what your band members are doing. Thank you for your comment!
I think this is great advice for newer players, or players that are just starting out playing with a piano player.
I do believe that the main goal of every instrument is to support the singer and soloist to make them sound best. A big piece of this is harmonic awareness: knowing who is playing what in any given chord and change.
It’s been my experience playing bass in bands for 20+ years that keys players generally have the most musical knowledge, but the least amount of awareness: they can trample on other parts because they can play most of the piece themselves.
Every gig is different but it’s been my experience that the keys player either plays the bass part or not. If they’re doubling it’s only for dramatic effect.
Less is often more for everyone.
I hear that completely, I have a saying “all keys players want to rule the world” 😂 I do think there’s something to be said for overzealousness in keys players as far as range goes. We gotta be careful about that. Overall, the best bands I’ve ever been a part of are bands where everybody works together, that’s what it’s all about.
As a bassist, a pianist should not be playing in the register of the bass. If your bassist is having to pop, slap,and play dissonant notes to be heard, it's because a pianist is trampling over them. They can't just keep rolling up the treble
Even playing live a good deal on bass I’ve never had to resort to popping slapping or playing dissonant notes to be heard. I would say this is a matter of getting the amplification right on the bass side, as more volume will make it easier to play softer which is better tone-wise and hand-wise. But also, any engineer in the front of house will be rolling off a piano around 100, and cutting massively at 200hz. This is very different than how they will process the kick and the bass, which will be allowed to dominate the low end in the mix. I don’t think an acoustic piano patch should ever really be louder or more bassy than the bass, and if it is that’s the front of houses job to fix it.
You mention Miles. One of my influences is Michael Henderson from when he played with Miles. He could hang on one note and make it groove and hold everything together like no one else.
When is a new piano player i keep root .. but with friends have practice we change few chord to make smooth playing not over saturated i have to make sure they are in the same mindset.. that you envelop with time and practice together. Sometimes a new piano player would try to emulate what you do with other pianist but it would fail bc its practice what gets you there changing chords there’s theory and feelings experience for that.
I know what you’re saying, there should be a give and take with it in a rehearsal setting but I believe the root note everybody will be hitting should be firmly locked down by the time you hit any performance stage, with the exception of a jazz gig. Thank you for your comment, I sincerely appreciate it!
Bassist of over forty years- these are the bassics!
Absolutely! 🙏 thank you for your comment!
Got some push back in the comments from my fellow bassists! Haha
As a general rule for pop / rock I'm inclined to agree with the points. The 1st one for me is sometimes hit and miss. I've sometimes introduced the 3rd instead because the tune I'm playing does that and I've had pianists look at me with dirty looks! I think you've mentioned this to other commentators but this is something that likely needs to be agreed as a group of what register people are doing, or for the bassist to listen out to what the pianist is doing. Unfortunately as a bassist, you'll likely to get the blame when it could be the keys at fault. If your changing the chord entirely, like playing an A over a Cmaj then 100% agree.
I would like to see more pianists making room for bassists though. Guess this maybe more genre dependent, where things like shell voicing's are more familiar in Jazz.
Great perspective info for us bass players 🎶I’m onboard w/your channel.
Good Work 👍
Thank you!
Can I suggest a fourth "Do" and that's be prepared to stop/leave space. As long as the rest of the musicians know you're going to come back in, hit the first note of a bar and then leave the other beats silent. Or drop out for an entire run through the chord sequence. Creates unbelievable drama when you come back in.
Great advice; I just started my bass journey couple years ago, and I can attest to these tips ⚡️
Thank you! 🙏
Really good video tho there’s a sneaky caveat to rule #1 - I notice that a lot of pianists I play with imply certain inversions anyway that if a bass player catches (e.g playing the relative minor of major chords, once every 8 bars) it always brightens their day
and honestly in a free jam session where everyone’s stuck in an infinitely long static vamp, inverting to a four does feel like finding water in a desert 😂
Great Video man :) Awesome concept for a video… Nice Job 👍
Thank you so much! 🙏🙏
As a bass player I was ready to be outraged at the piano player telling me what to do... but I completely agree.
😂 Thank you so much, I appreciate your comment mate.
As a bassist, composer, arranger, and occasional band leader, I'm going to have to reiterate something some else said: DO NOT DOUBLE THE F***ING BASS PART!!!! Let the bassist do their job. And sometimes that means NOT playing the root. Not sure about that one? Listen to James Jamerson. Better yet, listen closely to Niels Henning Orsted Pederson playing with Oscar Peterson, and tell me do you hear the piano doubling the bass? Leading tones matter. Grace notes matter. Sometimes articulating chord voicings with arpeggiations, especially extensions matter. Of course not all the time, but those things are spicing and flavor, and used sparingly will make or break the tune.
As for as counterpoint, contrary, or unison motion goes, again, that also is flavor. And yes, of course, as a part of the rhythm section, going apesh*t in the middles of someone else's solo is just kind of rude. In a lot of cases, the bass really should be, for the most part, just giving the kick drum a pitch, along with the occasional push or pull, but as with anything, it depends on the context in the moment. The bass is what defines the chord. You're playing a B and G above that. Depending on where I'm trying to lead things to, I could play an E two octaves below that, a C, an A, an F, a D, and none of those are wrong depending on what we play next. Technically, any of those ARE the root.
Bass is, in large part, what defines the dynamics at any given point in a tune. During a solo, the bass leave plenty of room for the soloist, but also move with them dynamically. Tension and resolution. Just like a keyboardist should be comping chords here and there during a solo, so should the bass add just a little here and there. Figuring out what works best is often a case of trying things while working a tune out, hearing what does NOT work, and avoiding that later. Turns out that sometimes, maybe even most times, that doesn't mean camping out on the first 5 frets of the B string. Except under very specific circumstances, I'd call that a rookie move, as would a lot of seasoned cats. Those notes, especially when coming through a BIG sound system, tend to be very fatiguing on the listener, so again, best used sparingly.
And most importantly ; ALWAYS DO WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THE TUNE. Not your ego the tune.
My only complaint is that you didn’t release this sooner. I just got booted from a band cause i was trying to figure out this approach. This was what i needed. Thanks!
Hey, life is all about learning! Everybody needs a bassist, as they say, keep your hands in shape and I’m sure you’ll be back supporting bands in no time 🫡🫡 Thank you for your comment!
If the pianist is staying off my bass notes, then I can sub!!! Context context context. Everyone goes nuts when the bassists slashes in gospel! It’s the best!
Gospel is for sure a different thing! Although in most of those churches the pianist is the MD, and they are using their left hand suuuuper hard lol. But yeah I played a gospel gig for three years on B3 in Nashville, for sure it makes sense to stay out of that bass range in gospel to me. I would say jazz, funk and gospel are times to lay out the left hand on keys.
@@andreberniermusic this is a really great video man, I’m always interested how players of different instruments are effected by the bass player. Thanks!
Great points i needed to hear
🫡 Thank you!
Great points! Please do the other way round too, thanks!
Good idea! I will! Thank you for you comment
Thank you. As a drummer, when the bassist is off it really distracts me. The perfect bassist for me is the one I don’t notice. Their presence is just felt. Every now and then they do a nice run or comp but just being steady, have a great feel and being non intrusive is so important.
100%. Victor Wooten has a fantastic quote: “A good bassist is like the foundation of a house. If it’s sound, you won’t notice it.” Couldn’t agree more. Thank you for your comment!
@@andreberniermusic That's a nice quote, but seriously - does anyone ever NOT notice Victor when he's playing bass? And I am not talking about solos, I am talking about his actual bass lines, perhaps most notably with the Flecktones. He played distinctive, iconic bass lines that, while certainly anchoring the songs, they also added significant harmonic color and strong rhythmic movement to them as well.
Quotations are cute, but actually listen to his recorded work and I think that tells a different story.
Man I so agree!!
Glad to hear it! Thank you for your comment!
I value this video/perspective. I’m frankly a bit embarrassed of some of these comments disagreeing with you, as they are NOT keys players. I mean what the heck do they know? Here’s a key player offering insight to bassists and they’re going to argue?? Humble yourselves out and learn, and maybe you’ll have more gigs and not have the time to make moronic comments.
🙏🙏 I sincerely appreciate that, thank you!
I don't get it, guitar player remove the root while comping, but pianists can't?
5:00 - ''Fat Bottom Bass You Make'' More Pushin' for dah Cushin'! - Been seeing lots of videos like this one lately,...gives me hope that ''Motown Mojo'' is making a comeback. 🎯🙏✌️🙏🎯
I LOVE Motown, I mean who doesn’t!! Thank you for your comment 🙏
Homey just rolls music theory off his to gue and I'm like "oonga boonga root note" lol
Chuck, I actually laughed out loud at this. Thank you for that, I appreciate the comment 😂
After reading the debate in the comments I would like to say some things to maybe lighten it up as I see a point in both sides.
I'm a bassist who also plays guitar, ukulele and a tiny bit of keyboard.
I feel like that in music there are different roles that people need to stick with However, I do believe that the instruments can switch roles. Guitars can take a step back and let the bass do more work. I feel like you correct on a lot of points but i feel like you are a bit too narrow minded on music and what you expect from a bassist. Everyone plays the root sure, but a keyboard comes closer to the bass fequencies than a guitar so a keyboard interfeers a bit more with the bass than a guitar my friend. If keys get to close to bass than it forces us to move a tiny bit closer to guitar by adding more mid-range which might upset a guitar player.
It's fine to be more concervative in your taste in music and playing but you're not in the right to judge other musicians who are more inventive. If you get a musician who's playing you don't like, just look for a new one who's playing you do like.
In my view, I play bass in two bands at the moment and one is a cover band, a 5-piece with rythm and lead guitar who feel up quite some space so I take a more background approach and leave enough space for the guitar players only taking up space here and there for pedal effects like a wah effect for a funk song or chorus on some 80's pop songs.
The other band is a 3-piece where I share lead vocal duties with the guitarist. In a 3-piece you only have the basic ellements so all 3 have to up their game so have a more dominent approuch being louder in the mix. On songs where my guitarist sings I provide a solid in your face bass sound to support him and on songs where I sing I take back a step on bass and have the guitarist provide a sollid sound to carry me.
The reason why i share this is to teach mucisians that every band in every genre is different, it's your job as a mucisian (not just bassist) to find your space in every band in whatever music genre. That's why I have 2 different approuches on bass because the two bands are completely diffrent from one another so I have to change roles and approuch the bands in different ways as you as a mucisian should too.
Fair enough! Different situations call for different players, for sure. There’s no one size fits all with music, that’s completely true. Thank you for your comment!
Solid
Thank you!
I've played with some keyboard players that were playing a lot of low notes (that's ok if done sparingly) but also bass transition licks from chord to chord, when that is most certainly my job. Just don't! Drives me crazy when they do that, that is the bassist job and part. Period. Otherwise don't have a bassist in the band and let the keyboard player do it all. I have seen groups do that with good keyboard players playing both parts simultaneously (bass riffs/transitions and actual key stuff). It's fine, just don't call a bass player in that case.
With that said, I agree with the rest of your points, especially the play less and support others in general and especially when they are soloing.
Great advice
Thank you!
I really like what you shared in the video, but I am not sure I understand the pedal point. Great job 👏
I picked a confusing tune to demonstrate it on, as it goes between two keys on that bridge section. A pedal point is just holding the 5 chord of the key over whatever section you’re in, no matter what the harmony above you is doing. It creates a nice tension and release. Thank you for your comment!
I think there is validity to the idea that piano, like guitar, might play in the same pitch range as a bass but with different timbre, so why not "fill in the sound"... maybe a genre thing to some extent, like anyone from a jazz background is going to leave space there for the bassist but rock loves filling in that sound. But sometimes what you're really doing is creating a problem for the sound guy to fix. So the question is: why are you making sound that needs to be removed? Is playing too loud to "fill out the sound" okay, since the sound guy can turn you down? You get what I mean; that's one thing in the studio when you can mix to heart's content but on a gig, my advice would be: play like mixing doesn't exist...
Good advice. May I share some too?
Better lighting would help, the shadows undermine the visual aid when we can't see what you're demonstrating.
I’ll work on that, hoping to get a b cam in the future so you can see the frets better. Thank you for your comment!
Bass and drums!! All the rest are a novelty act! A quote from Nick Mason I think 😅
Video: do not change the root because if a piano is doubling the bass...
Me*screaming* : STOP PLAYING BASS NOTES WHEN THERE'S A BASS PLAYER.
ok on a serious note: if i am playing a standard in a jam session with 3 soloists+ piano of course the piano will not constantly (if ever) play root notes, and putting inversions on the one now and then will be the only way to avoid repeating myself and getting bored and boring. I recommend listening to Scott LaFaro for reference
You’re talking about jazz, which is certainly a different set of rules overall. However, there are many, many pianists that play roots in a jazz context, McCoy Tyner and Erroll Garner being prime examples. If we’re just talking about Scott LaFaro that requires a more nuanced conversation, as their entire goal of that group was interplay within a trio context, which is different than what MOST musicians would want from you at say, a jam session or a standards gig. I think you’d find most people are expecting basslines like Paul Chambers and Ron Carter, not Scott LaFaro, in a professional context. You can say I’m wrong but that’s my experience. It doesn’t mean that LaFaro is worse, it’s just a completely different style and one that had to be honed in a group context before hand. People expect you to lock down the root and the quarter note FIRST, everything else comes separate. Overall I don’t think pianists should play roots in jazz, however, I agree rootless voicings are the sound for that. But it’s not a never, just a general good practice.
@@andreberniermusic It's all in context. Of course if i am playing in a rec session with people i don't know i tend to stick to the established root, but if the vibe is right and we go from "making it work" to creativity, i can spice it up and most of the times it goes well. I might be wrong but concerning the mcoy Tyner case, consonance might not be a priority oftentimes and if there are some dissonances between bass and the piano low notes, it might be kind of "in the vibe". I have to listen to it closelier tho. Thanks for the inputs
No clock could effectively measure how fast I would quit your band.
Fair enough!
Yo. So I think you did a good job with this video. And I'd like to exercise my privilege to throw my two cents in the pot. lol. I'll go point by point.
DON'Ts
1) I uhhhh.....think this one is debatable. Not wrong, but just debatable. I won't beat the dead horse of "pianos shouldn't be doubling up in the first place." I play bass at church and I have to deal with that every now and again, but I just work with it because sometimes that's my guide. So I just kinda deal with it. Lol. I'm tolerant like that, and I don't like to stress my bandmates out sometimes.
Regardless, I got two main qualms with this one (forgive me). First, I don't think it's too fair to "take away" the right to change the root. I understand that you aren't being a hardass with this rule, and you did acknowledge that it's great in the right context. I think you're a better bassist than me, so I won't do you that dirty by misconstruing your point. Lol. But if the bass player proves that he's capable and committed to supporting the group as much as possible, I think he should have the right to do what he wants (within reason, within reason), because 9/10 it's gonna work and serve the group. As long as he doesn't abuse the leeway, he should be allowed to use the leeway. But that's just me. And worst case scenario, what he does probably won't muck everything up to the point where it's all just complete garbo. So if a bassist understands the assignment, the "changing of the root" is awesome at best and forgivable at worst imo.
Second (and this is personal opinion because I'm not the most versed in music theory), the bassist may not actually be changing the root, but using a different note in the triad that's based off the root, and sometimes that's a very viable option (church has definitely used this! Think resolving on the 3 instead of the 1, but the 3 is in the triad based on the 1. In other words, the song ain't over yet!!!). That's why I put "changing the root" in quotes; it was a set-up! Lol. Jokes aside, the root is implied. So the bass player isn't really changing the root in most cases, but rather changing the movement, which is warranted sometimes (he shouldn't overdo it, but still). Now if he throws a tritone where a 5 should be, that's where things can get hairy, because everyone needs to be on the same page in order to not step on anyone's toes. But you get the idea.
2) For the most part, I agree. But I'd say keep playing busy on standby just in case you need it (and there will be times when you will, speaking from experience). Not so busy to where you muck up the feel and the groove; there's an art to playing busy. But just enough to where you can take the energy of the song up. Plus, there are note choices that are safer than others when you want to step up the busy (like going to the octave or the fifth instead of the 2 or 3). Instead of actually moving the song, it's kinda like moving in place; you move to keep interest, but not enough to disturb the groove, if that makes sense. Like, arpeggiating when the situation calls for it, for example. Quasi-movement type ish. Lol.
And for solo situations, you do want to stay out of the way as a bass player, but some more flavorful choices can help the moment as long as it's not overdone. One of my bass heros that's a good example of this is Pino Palladino when he plays with the John Mayer Trio. He throws his licks and runs in very tasteful spots. And these runs, including on the solos, serve a dual purpose: not only does he compliment John's soloing in a very lit way, but he also "fills in" the harmonic space John has to leave when he takes to the skies (at least, that's what I observed).
When I grow up, I wanna be just like Pino. (I know that we mere mortals can't pull of the Pino if we ain't got the skill for it, and I know he doesn't overplay if the situation doesn't need it, but it's not a bad bar to aim for. I wanna compliment a soloist and a song like he can.)
3) Follows from point 2. You play too busy, you affect the feel. Gotta keep that pocket consistent. No qualms here.
DOs
1) I agree with this. I acknowledge any exceptions, but I wholeheartedly agree with you. Even if you wanna hit da Pino Palladino, holding down that low-end is important. I can't hit the Billy Sheehan and take the high registers with the other instruments just yet. Lol.
2) I've heard of pedal tones before, but I don't understand them. Pardon my ignorance, but can I get someone to explain it to me (preferrably like I'm 5)?
3) You are dead right about elongation. It's a VERY useful tool to either take the energy up or smooth things out. I like to mix this up with shortening the notes when I play, because people will feel the contrast. And that lets me set the energy in a good handful of cases. For example, I may do one section or loop of a section with elongated notes, and do a section with short notes to add some space in the feel. (Don't worry, I do this when I have the leeway.)
Overall, I have learned quite a bit from this. And one of the key things I've learned is that as a bass player, it's important to ask these things upfront where you can. Points 1 and 2 in the don't section specifically are points I'll be sure to ask about. Communication can help out those points drastically, because everyone can compare philosophies, see what everyone else has in their minds, and go from there. I'll know how much leeway I have.
Me: "So is me complimenting you on the solo good? As in, not overplaying you, but spicing things up with a Pino type of vibe? I can play an example with you."
Pianist: "Nah, I know what you mean. But I'd rather you didn't. Because when I do my solo work, I'm crafting it based on the root notes you're holding down, and I want that space there to emphasize everything."
Me: "Aight. Bet. I'll keep the roots like Groot."
Pianist: "Cool beans."
Sorry in advance for the long post. I am struggling to be concise. But feel free to let me know what you think.
Thanks again.
I actually agree with everything you’ve said here! I think Gospel is a completely different thing than most other genres when it comes to roles, there’s a deep improvisational thing to that genre that isn’t the same as say, top 40 or pop. I would put Jazz, Funk and Gospel in a different category than other genres in terms of piano/bass relationship. This is more addressing the “wedding band/top 40” style. I used to play B3 for a Gospel church for three years and you’re so correct about changing the root, that happens all the time in church. As for pedal points, simply put you’re holding the 5 of whatever key you’re in, regardless of what happens harmonically above it. Since 5 to 1 is the most common and satisfying resolution to our ears 5 is a safe bet to create tension, and returning to the ordinary root notes serves as a release, especially if you return on the 1 chord. Thank you for your comment! 🙏
@@andreberniermusic Ooooh. So THAT'S what pedaling is! Imma use that trick when I have the opportunity! Thanks for defining that!
And you played B3?!??? As in Hammond B3?!??? Nice!!!!!! I already had mad respect for you, but now it doubled! That instrument is no joke. You have to know calculus just to turn it on, let alone using it. 🤣🤣🤣
I'm scared of piano, and I'm even more scared of the organ. I'll learn piano before that one, because sheesh that's a lot to utilize. 😅
And I also see what you mean here too. Another point of interest is that a long time ago, there was rumors that the funk has died and was kept alive by only a small handful of spots after a certain point (I don't believe that at all, because I don't think things actually die; they just sleep or relocate temporarily imo). But the church was mentioned to be one of the spots the funk was kept alive......and I believe that wholeheartedly, because gospel is a mix of many styles, but one of its main styles is _sanctified_ funk. Lol.
Thanks again for the props. Much appreciated for the video and the response! 😁👍
Great video,just subscribed
Thank you! 🙏
From the perspective of the NOT-jazz bass player: dear keypressers, please, find a better place for your left hand to be during performance than on the keyboard. For example, try to hover over the oscillation and modulation control knobs, maybe, you know, just to add flavor to that sound you're making and, for god's sake, please, keep this low frequencies for those in real charge for them. And speaking about "playing busy" - Muse still have the best basslines in the world and of all times, and, oh man, these basslines are "busy" af. But, the point is - play what are you supposed to play by the song's arrangement. Don't improvise or pretend that you know better than a songwriter who wrote the piece and you'll be fine. That goes for every musician in a band, btw.
Good bands work together! It depends on the keys patch of course, when you say oscillation knob I think synth, and I COMPLETELY agree synth shouldn’t double bass. Same for organ and Rhodes. But in general, a pianist on an acoustic piano doubling the root is completely normal and in fact, what most of recorded pop music adheres to. The root is a contract, everybody should be able to hit it on the downbeat together, and with their different timbres that is how the band will sound massive.
@@andreberniermusic That's maybe a matter of taste. When I create an arrangemend for my band, and we need to use piano sound, I tend to exclude the note the bassist plays at the time from the chord that keyboardist plays. Thus giving them both space to be and retaining that harmonic idea.
I wouldn't know because although I have a few years of experience with bass, I only have one or two experiences on stage with a bass and have had verry few improv sesions but couldn't you just ask your band about what they want insted of assuming
I think he's talking about improv aspects of playing, a lot of bands, especially Jazz and related genres, don't have an exact set that they play through every night bar for bar, so this would be super useful then
This is a great point! In a band setting you’d have time to develop a relationship between members musically, but in many instances on a scene you’ll be thrown in at the deep end without any prior discussion or rehearsal. These are my guidelines for the latter, I would say these are my loose “rules” for what works in a band setting. It varies gig to gig, but in general this is my experience.
One advise I got from a teacher is that "the person who is going to hire you as a bass player is not a bass player", so take opinion of non bass players very serious.
As a new bassist who doesn't practice with a metronome enough.... PRACTICE WITH A METERONOME
No, that’s such a good point. I’m also a huge proponent for dragging a splice loop into a session and playing along to drums for shedding! Thank you for your comment!
What if they're playing a slash cord don't you play the note to the right of the slash
Then you haven’t effectively hit the root. You gotta hit every inversion previously agreed upon in the chart! Thank you for your comment!
@@andreberniermusic oh cause my friend that I played with at a church he has got all these music degrees and plays like to sin abasi he gave me charts for rehearsal
And told
Me when I'm
On bass always play the note on the right of the slash
@@andreberniermusic I guess I will just try both and see what sounds best.. oh also in church music sometimes I play roots and it just doesn't blend but I guess it's kind of a dissonance
You should listen to a lot of Phish
You could learn a ton about how this works.
You’re a great musician but, as most young people do, assume that your personal perspective has to be the correct one.
Excellent video, love the perspective that you're coming from and covering here. As a bassist, I'll add my two cents in here though.
With your three don'ts, all three of those fall under one rule for me: Know Your Role. In the case of your three don'ts, that role would be you are the root of the chords, you need to be supportive, and keep it simple. That's a common role and it should be a comfortable one, and if it's boring to you as a bass player, you need to find the beauty in simplicity. However, I wouldn't maintain those three don'ts in every situation because that might not be your role in every situation. But they are the basic, standard role for the bass, so it's a great foundation to build on. However, as the bass player in that situation, I would feel limited and unappreciated and I wouldn't stay in that gig long. You should be able to get that from any bass player, so why would you want me? Plus, what am I getting out of that situation? I'm not learning, I'm not growing, I'm not expanding my knowledge and capabilities. I'm a cashier at a grocery store that can easily be replaced with a self-checkout machine. Even a great paycheck and top notch amenities isn't going to make up for the musical stagnation at some point. I won't need or want to practice the material on my own and I'll have to look outside of the gig for my musical satisfaction. Now, I'm not saying I want to reharmonize everything, rip all over the tunes, and have complete freedom to do whatever I want whenever I want. I do know and embrace my role, but there is a line where it can feel restrictive and counter-intuitive, especially in jazz where I ideally should be listening and reacting with the ensemble. A good bass player can still be supportive and keep things simple while also being reactive and musical.
I see it more often with drummers than bassists though. Every composer just wants the drummer to play the beat they wrote, and every drummer wants to react and play what they hear and feel. They want to subdivide and syncopate, they want to challenge themselves and the ensemble and throw some chops into their fills and grooves. So few of them want to be Charlie Watts, and that's why drummers like Charlie Watts are so special.
And your three do's are great as well for defining when and how to step out from the ultra simple, ultra supportive role. Although again, from a bass player's perspective I would feel like it would be completely ignoring what I bring to the table from my influences, my reactions and my abilities and I would again ask why you would want me for the gig when you can just write out every note of the gig and get someone to just read it off of the page. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but the examples you gave of the various players you mentioned brought those qualities to the table with their hands and ears, it wasn't dictated to them as boundaries or even suggestions.
Your example of "when I go up, you go down" is a great tip for most situations and I don't think a lot of bass players realize how this gives more space for the soloist while introducing counterpoint and contrary motion.
I'd like to expand on your third do: elongate. I would include this in a group how you get into a note, how long you hold the note, and how you get out of the note. Approach, sustain and recede. I've played with soloists who want a certain structure to what they're soloing over, so my note choices and rhythms are locked in place. But how I approach, sustain and recede from those notes are where I get to contribute. It all depends on the genre of course, but in rock, metal or pop situations there often isn't a lot of room for deviation from the expected part. The parts are often identical with each iteration and there's not nearly as much room for improvisation and interpretation as some other genres. So our only method of variation is how we play the necessary parts without disrupting the flow.
So in essence, I don't disagree with anything here, in fact I agree with all of it completely, but hopefully there's a little insight here as to the perspective of a bass player. It can feel underappreciated and micromanaged and in some cases it's expected, while in others it's boring and limited. A lot comes down to perspective and maturity. A young player with a lot of talent is probably going to want to burn brightly, while an experienced veteran might see these things as, "well, duh."
I was never the type of bass player to burn under someone else's solo, but any time the arrangement breaks out of a unison part where I'm much more audible and and free I'm definitely adding a little more spice to the stew. Usually with a little grease on the way in and out of notes, a little vibrato and note length changes here and there, and a little more development around what the drummer is doing. Especially in a rock/metal situation with only one guitarist, where I feel like I have more space to fill with the lack of a rhythm guitar part. Not in a Cream/Sabbath sort of way, where it's solo time and we all get to rip, but more of a "now that I'm not obscured by guitars and vocals, here's a little taste of me and my sound underneath, keeping it interesting on my side of the stage without a look what I can do moment."
Oh, one more bit before I go: Excellent insight about that low B. I tune my B string up to a C for the exact reason you pointed out. That low B can get really blurry and just rumbly, while that low C still holds together for some reason. Also, a lot of piano/keyboard players often think in C as opposee to B. Obviously it all depends on the key of the song, but in my limited keyboard experience, B is a weird key and is in a weird place on the keyboard. In more guitar based music, it makes sense because a lot of guitarists center on that low E string or tune it down to D, where that B can come in handy. But I find I'd rather have that lower support note for the III in Emin or the VII in Dmin progressions than for the I/V of E or the VI in D. And the fingering differences are only one half step off from the usual fretboard geometry so they're not too strange or uncomfortable.
All great points! I agree completely. I think the point about “growing” is interesting, I might even counter that the bandstand isn’t necessarily the place for growth (at least in a pop context). The bandstand is the place to JUST serve the song, for everybody. I’m not saying the bassist can’t play some cool fill once in a while, god knows I do 😂 but it’s everybody’s job to present the song exactly how it needs to be done, as opposed to just keeping themselves from being bored. That to me is what practice is for, and of course, soloing. Now with that said, jazz and fusion are entirely different animals and you need to separate them. I do think the bandstand can be a place to try new shit there, but really the traditional rules kind of go out the window with those genres. Thank you for your well thought out comment, I appreciate you taking the time to make those points!
@@andreberniermusic I don't disagree at all that the bandstand/stage isn't necessarily the place for growth, although I would certainly say that the bandstage/stage is where I've figured out where a lot of things have and have not worked. Where no matter how much I've practiced something, some things just don't work well onstage and I've had to find another method to convey the same notes/feeling/vibe. Earlier in my career, practicing led what I was playing onstage whereas later playing onstage led what I needed to be practicing.
And as for being bored and keeping from being bored, I guess I could clarify that in some way. If it's just one gig or a handful of gigs, it's really not a big deal. But if it's more than that, if the commitment and required time and dedication is longer and I'm filling a position as a regular then that's where feelings of being limited and unappreciated would come in.
I had a friend who was in the Nashville system for a while, playing and touring with a lot of big name country musicians for a long time. He settled down in the Pigeon Forge area and had a regular gig at a theater there, playing pretty much the entire history of country music two to three times a day, six days a week, and he was bored shitless. Sitting on a stool in the darkened area of the stage with the other bored musicians, never deviating a single note from the charts. Granted, I've seen them a dozen or so times and none of them every made even the tiniest mistake, but there was never a moment of improvisation and creativity from anyone but the "stars" they were playing behind. Although I'm physically and technically capable of playing that gig, I don't think I could ever be mentally and creatively capable of doing that more than a handful of times.
Great video
Real quick though, the keyboardist doubling the root defo would make certain substitutions done by bassists sound ridiculous. My two cents: let the bassist have control of the low range, a good bassist would know when to make proper substitutions that would uplift the song (be that a 3 over 1, or anything else).
A song is a contract. If the most effective chord is 1/3 instead of 1, that should be agreed on before hand. It’s not that a bassist can never divert from the root, it’s more that everybody should be on the same guidelines. Like it or not, keyboardists will be playing the roots. If done properly this can thicken the band and make the base bigger for everybody. Bands should work together! Just my two cents, that’s just my experience. This also varies by genre, jazz funk and gospel can sometimes throw these rules out, so it’s all case specific. Thank you for your comment!
Its the feel good instrument
It really is!
1) as a pianist you DO NOT have permission to play the root !! just because if WE (bass players) want to inverse.... we can !!
Good bands work together. A song is a contact, it’s a structure everybody has agreed to before hand. The best bands find what works best and commit, in my experience. Thickening the sound of the group overall is more important than spur of the moment choices by the bassist. Just my two cents, cheers and thank you for your comment!
Bass players need to understand that its called a "solo" not a "togheter".
I'll change the root if its written in the chart. Whats if its written in the chart?
If it’s in the chart, it’s the law as far as I’m concerned 😂 Thank you for your comment!
It depends on how your musical knowledge and tastes.
Drums and Bass are the backbone of the entire band.
Nothing is worse than a lousy drummer and an off-key bass player.
We can avoid the root note as long as we are not routing the entire band in the other direction.
Bassists determine the harmony of the song with monopoly melodic lines rhythmically.
The whole point is to serve the song.
I agree with everything you said! Somebody like Jameson was amazing at diving all around the line but always came back to the root consistently. Something like “I Was Made To Love Her” is a great example of this. If you’re hitting those roots on the downbeats, the piano can double them too without it getting woofy. It’s generally only when bassists miss that downbeat root in favor of too much movement that it becomes a mess. The whole point is certainly to serve the songs, as you said.
I have a lot of trouble playing music with piano players because I always just rock music and just arms. I don't like the sounds of pianos. I don't like the big giant they try to do like church and stuff.
Fair enough! I use synths and organs when in a rock context, and no left hand. I think that fits better for that style. Thank you for your comment
@@andreberniermusic yea dude that's how it should be done
Why should the piano EVER double the root at the same register as the bass??? Shift your left hand, you have a bass player
Is bassist supposed to just make up what he's gonna play on the spot?
Sort of! The bassist can absolutely divert from a planned line, but I love having a planned line as a reference. It’s good to learn recordings as close and possible and then use that as a jumping off point to divert and return to. Check out the Vulf video for “I Was Made To Love Her” for a great example of how you can use motifs while being improvisational within the lines. Thank you for your comment!
If you only play roots I'd hate to hear you on a jazz gig.
Jazz is its own thing, but there are plenty of pianists who employ the root note in their playing, McCoy Tyner and Erroll Garner being two examples. Context is everything, but in general rootless voicings are better for jazz. This video is really about gigs in other modern styles, mainly pop and top 40.
If you have a bassist on stage, why are you playing ANY roots or fifths down low at all on the piano??
It’s a great question! The simple answer is it’s incredibly satisfying when coupled with a bass playing the root. Give a listen to “A Love Supreme” and you’ll hear McCoy Tyner slamming roots and fifths under his voicings. Give a listen to Elton John and you’ll hear him doing the same thing in a completely different context. CCM music is full of low piano voicings in 10ths which double and ride on top of the bass note. Bands should work together! It’s not every man for himself out there, it should be a cohesive unit working towards the same goal. Thank you for your comment!
Im mad because youre rifht 😂😂😭😭
He is right most of the time, yet why sounding so pretentious? Wanna speak about how the piano could be annoying for all of the other instruments in the spectrum?
Great commentary
Thank you so much!
As a bassist, I'm not fond of endless boogie boogie piano, it's s..t.
I mean same here, that’s certainly not what I’m advocating for 😂
And our job is not comfort
What a silly concept
Vid is cool but bruh fix yo bass levels and tone. Cant hear shit
Gotcha I’ll raise it for next time. I’d suggest using headphones or earbuds, phone speakers have a hard time reproducing low end.