If Dr. Zinn can expand every chapter of People's History of America into a book, I will give a more positive response to Dr. Zinn, since American history is broader than most of people think.
knowledge is never negative. you have to study the negative parts to see the positives of the time or create the positives in the present. i hope we have a better understanding of each other's position on these topics. solidarity forever, my friend.
I'm glad someone courageously defended the civil rights and constitution of this country while showing a different perspective and truth of a nation that many choose to ignore or repress. After I finish the Indispensable Chomsky, I'm going to re-read the People's History.
Howard Zinn was an awesome individual. His books are insightful and informative. 'The Peoples History of the United States' is a must read for anyone interested in USA History. He did things to help and educate others not an arrogant, greedy, self-fish person like some trolls on YT.
Blues music, rock and roll, american cinema, industrial revolution and the list goes on. It's huge. We may have our sins as a country but compared to others through out history we've done pretty damn good. Powerful and non powerful have contributed great things throughout history. The Soviet Union is a great example of a terrible style of government. I'm not ignoring our history but just have learned from it and moved on and not dwelled on our mistakes.
He is not gone ... heez simply transformed ... heez now 'the wind that blows ... heez now the glint on diamond snow ... in the morning hush ... he is now the swift uplifting rush ...' (paraphrased from 'Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep')
It was just announced Mr. Zinn passed away. This is unfortunate for any person concerned with justice and peace. The world needs more Zinns, and fewer warhawks, weapon manufacturers, arms dealers, and opportunists. Mr. Zinn will be missed. Larry, Taiwan
Zinn was in the Air Force during World War 2 - he was part of the greatest generation that tried to rid the world of tyranny. He was also a part of a generation that had the first experiences with Mechanized Warfare, a deeply scarring experience that turned him into a pacifist, historian and teacher.
ok, now we have some common ground. time is short on my end right now so i'll make this brief. the mistakes of old were not mistakes. public records confirm this, you can easily find this information. the good things that we have are completely separate in almost every form. the problem is that the 'mistakes' are repeated in a calculated fashion for reasons that are evident to anyone who looks at it logically. moving on or turning a blind eye to the current crimes?
you don't seem to be reading or understanding what i've written properly. the people's history in this country is vast and incredible. labor movements, civil rights, solidarity, opposition to war, winning freedom of speech. the owners of the country, however, have a very different history. it starts with the genocide of the 'new world' and goes right up until today. imperial capitalists, war pigs, etc. i'll ask again, what are the positive things YOU wish were focused on? [continued...]
I disagree that I'm missing the point. I know we've had bad moments in our history but hearing them over and over again from a tilted angle is over the top. We've made mistakes in our history and we've done really great things as well. Zinn just happens to hype the negative more than the positive. If he would have an equal presenatation that would be fine but he doesn't do that. Go listen to speeches he's given and he thrives on the negative. We need to be looking forward.
"you are the only person throwing insults here" --Where is the insult in that message? "DEFEAT WHO?" --I believe I was specific. In fact, I can quote it for you: "if you wage war on your enemy & defeat him," You see, when you fight a war you have an enemy. I didn't realize you you didn't know that.
"She testified that what had been released was common day practice" --First, they worked the night shift, no administration around. And second, the C.O. claimed no knowledge, and no evidence proved her wrong. "why was it being allowed" --It wasn't, they were doing it in secret. Why wasn't the day shift doing the same thing? "given another label" --It does make a difference, just like "POW" is different than "nonuniformed enemy combatant." In the law & military, words matter.
"HER BOSS WAS GIVEN 10 YEARS! HE WAS USING THAT EVIDENCE AS TRAINING FOOTAGE" --I'm not lying when I say she claimed no knowledge. And if she did have knowledge, what was her sentence?
"Does the location really matter" --Yes, because GITMO was for terrorists. "being held without cause" --The cause was they were suspected of being terrorists. Are you not up on this subject? "without rights to a lawyer, or due process?" --They had both, even though they didn't have rights to them.
as much as i agree with you, maniamediafilms, i think it's time i at least bowed out from this 'discussion' because it's going nowhere. the constraints of youtube comment concision are simply too restricting for genuine meaningful discussion. it takes time to talk about important things and youtube only allows 500 characters, forcing most to take a hardline approach that completely undermines the goals of communication. common ground must be reached to continue.
"I am talking about the prisons held internally inside of Iraq" --Those who tortured or mistreated prisoners did so on their own and were punished under military law. It was stopped, it's been admitted, the apologies have been issued, and those responsible punished. YET YOU KEEP DRONING ON ABOUT IT as if it's still going on. Why? Why can't you move on? Or is that too juicy to let go?
You misread Zinn. He doesn't espouse anarchy, he just states the truth that you have to push the leadership. Elect them to power but keep their feet to the fire. Washington today is an insular, insider dome of privilege, prestige and power. They have to be continually, daily, reminded by us, that they are our employees not our over lords.
It's not turning a blind eye but more like knowing there are certain things of the past that can't be changed. If there are wrongs of today then they should be dealt with but my whole point was don't keep focussing on negative points. . Through out history there has been and always will be people out to screw someone else over. Every civilization has it's sins but I'm more interested in dealing with current issues than refighting points of slavery in the US for example. Have a good holiday
“Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force.” - George Bernard Shaw "In the U.S., some men live very opulent lives and a multitude (of men live) wretchedly poor lives." - Alexis de Toucqueville "Patriotism is nothing more than the organized group interests of the privileged class." - Bakunin "Don't bother reading newspapers: I will do all your reading, and I will tell you what to think about it." - Rush Limbaugh in the 1980s.
"why were there detainees there who were NOT terrorists?" --Many were. Some were not. They were released. Do the police always arrest the right person or only those involved directly? No. I think warfare & a military occupation are a little more chaotic. Mistakes are likely to happen. No one is perfect. And yes, GITMO detainees did have lawyers. Though slow, they had due process wheather you acknowledge it or not. "NO, they didn't" --They did. Look it up.
arguments from southern slave owners against the abolition of chattle slavery were very convincing at the time. they said that the northerners disliked slavery because they disliked black racism. slave owners said they were not racist, those slaves were their capital, they owned them. so they respected them and treated them well. wage slaves [like us] are rented, not owned, so we're treated worse and thrown away for a new rented slave. that's a current issue. [more on the way, sorry]
"The facts indicate otherwise" --Please present that evidence. "why was it allowed in the first place" --What part of "on their own" don't you understand? They had no orders to do so, and their C.O. claimed no knowledge of the incidents. "Water boarding was sanctioned on an Executive level" --We're not talking about waterboarding. Waterboarding is an enhanced interrogation technique. The guards at Abu Ghraib were torturing or mistreating their prisoners. There was no interrogation.
"general high-mindedness" --Yes, Oohh, I feel your PAIN. How do you endure it? "is unwilling to compromise belief" --And that's now an insult? I need to catch up on these new NewSpeak definitions. "There are no moderate Republicans" --Give me an hour or two and I'll name them all for you. "This is healthy in democracy" --Is that why they're being threatened by the Obama Admin and Dem groups are calling for their recall?
"slavery in the US is still happening. it's just a more nuanced form" --Really? Where can I buy some people? Can you tell me? I don't currently own anyone.
"has done little or nothing" --Well, he bailed some out, and absorbed others into the government. A lot of the money went into the pockets of his cronies & donors, just like he did back in Chicago. "caused the current economic crisis" --At least 1/2 the blame for that must go to Congress, which wrote & implemented the rules by which they had to play.
The United States militarized economy is keeping it alive. There are so many financial crushes and corruption scandals that other country's could not withstand. See Other republic's do not have 125 military bases all over the world, 2 wars at the same time and such. Is no wonder is always "doing well". This is just a thought of mine. Please don't attack me or start insults
"NoGuff, you have done nothing to prove your argument's other than fling insults and misconstrued facts and opinions" --Well, brokendave wrote the same thing. I asked him to cite any examples. Four reponses later from him, nothing. Can you cite any? "Just because you FEEL that you are right doesn't mean that you are" --I know what you're saying, but I feel I'm right because I am right. "opinions disguised as facts" --And the Left never does that? Damn, just watch Robert Gibbs sometime.
"So you're saying a Goldman-Sachs lobbyist.... um, working in Bush's cabinet or Czars, was an anti-capitalist? Wow. Can you name him?" --Oh yeah, you skipped answering that one.
"response was well put. War does not make a nation strong" --Well, ManiaMediaFilms overlooked the word "and" between the words "wins the wars" and "make America strong." They're used as two different ideas, not a single one. Wrecking our economy is the opposite of making us strong. I don't expect a Liberal like ManiaMediaFilms to understand. But to entertain that response out of context & hypothetically, if you wage war on your enemy & defeat him, you don't have to be strong anymore.
slavery in the US is still happening. it's just a more nuanced form. and rehashing historical points about it will help your understanding of the current slave system[s]. like brokendave said above, it's not to just shake a finger at the past, it's to garner a better understanding of the present so we may make an intelligent ORGANIZED kick for the future. [points to be continued] you have a good holiday as well, friend!
"Did you seriously just change your stance to mine" --No. "I must be misinterpreting what you are saying here" --I'm surprised if Liberals understand anything.
Why do so many people have to focus on the bad things in American history and ignore all the great things this country has acheived. It's sad to see the history channel put crap like this on the air. Our acheivements as a great nation outweigh the bad. No country is perfect.
now for the positive part of that coin, and it's a big one; labor unions struck, were beaten and killed, and after long hardship won shorter days, better pay, and better conditions for workers [wage slaves]. that's why there was such harsh repression of unions in this country, we have some of the worst AND BEST labor history in the world. but we can do better, and beat the current slave system. but it requires deep knowledge of the negative parts of history AND how parts were overcome. ......
"I just want to fight them all of now" --Well, when debating someone who actualy knows what the fuck he's talking about it's good not to insult him while admitting you don't know jack shit. "I see you ignored my whole comment on the left vs right issue." --If I don't respond to something specific its because it isn't worth a response or I have no opinion on it.
Oh please give me a break. Are you seriously claiming that he was responsible for all that? That is all a part of countries history but not because of Zinn. He may have wrote about it but so have so many other people. I didn't call him an idiot. He is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else. My problem with Zinn is another person so focussed on negative aspects while leaving out so many positve acheivments like they are nothing.
"you made assumptions" --You mean my facts about GITMO. My only error was in thinking you were referring to GITMO. To me, your above statement is a lie. A cheap, empty one at that. "how long did it take" --The amount of time required to discover the truth. You don't seem to realize that, like when the police question a suspect, no one is ever guilty, are they? The truth must be found, it doesn't pop up with a sign. "How long do you" --I wouldn't know. Nor would the soldiers at GITMO.
"have different rights" --Wow, you're not very quick, are you? You didn't even follow the logical progression I laid out for you. POW rights are greater than Human rights. Laws become involved & because more things are offered. Please go find a clue. "treated humanely" --They are. "a fair trail" --They don't, never have. Why bother, when being a uniformed soldiers gives them immunity from punishment for crimes constituting lawful acts of war? And you ask why I take this tone with you.
@ehunter2 You have a right to see his history the way you deem fit, and, moreover, you can dispute it until your face turns blue. Your intolerance is acceptable and welcome, but no less a distortion. I suspect a liberal-hating agenda is in this (I am not keen on Liberal takes, myself, but I do try to approach history a bit more critically than you seem to do),
"I claimed playing on the word Czar is racist" --What's the diff? I used it properly, as anyone else uses it, as anyone in the news uses it, as Obama himself used it "You know what you are doing" --No, but I know what you're doing when you raise such false accusations "your minions ... could be racist" --First, I don't have minions. And second, Liberals are far more likely to be racists than Conservatives "creating more hatred" --HA!! Obama does that well enough all by himself
@tomestubbs why waste your time arguing with a fool? He's not interested in learning anything about reality, just throwing out crap. Every time you reply, he sees in in his inbox and his little eyes light up. as Clint Eastwood said in Heartbreak Ridge, "Don't give the prick the satisfaction".
@ehunter2 Well, he did have a conversion of sorts. The fact that he chose to expose a side of American history in a fashion different from the normal, coat rack kind, has a lot to do with his own personal demons...perhaps. None the less, his accounts of historical events are no less cogent and necessary. Thorns in one's side hardly make for compelling argument!
"Saddam Hussein had complied with UN weapons inspectors a decade ago" --Only when threatened with imminent force. His compliance was not consistently offered, nor was it ever complete. In the year+ leading up to invasion they stopped allowing inspections, thereby being in violation of UN resolutions. Iraq also fired on our aircraft violating the cease fire agreement, which gave us complete discretion for invasion & Hussein's removal. Those are the facts. You choose to spew enemy propaganda.
"leftist? I don't think what they are speaking about has much to do with the left and the right, but rather the commonalities between us." --Well, hold my hand and let's all sing Kum-bi-ya. And then we can all turn off our brains and seal our eyes & ears closed and be good little minions, just like you.
Uhhhh ... hi. You didn't answer any of the questions I posd to you; you merely reiterated your original statement. I asked "What did Zinn distort?" you replied "Zinn distorts every single thing." Duh. You've listed several historical events Zinn does & does not include in his work, but no single example of "distorting" history. I could easily make a similar claim for writers who've chosen not to write about the things Zinn does write about. But then, you're a right winger.
"Dismiss every fact I bring" --Youf facts are bullshit. If an eye-witness describes something either he either wants to impart as part of a propaganda effort, or he simply doesn't understand what he's witnesses, then that is not a fact contributing to your argument. It's bullshit. "claim you are the only one who has brought any facts to the table" --I am, since you have been totally unable to blow any of them down, and your "facts" lie shattered on the ground.
@ehunter2 Back up your claims. What did Zinn distort? About what did he lie? In what way did his work exhibit self pity? In what way did he exploit gullible people? In fact, each of these claims could be leveled -- and far more accurately -- at right wing nabobs.
Really, men as Howard Zinn are of such unreproachable common sense. It seems that the fog has once again descended on western culture, and I dare ask if such men, as Zinn, will rise out of our culture's morass.
Actually, ALL of that is covered in the book "The People's History of the United States". I suggest you get off the computer and read it instead of making uninformed and ignorant statements.
All of the Chinese workers in the world could work on the railroads, but without the men who understood how it works and fits together, they would still be standing there.
I can at least say ehunter2 (AKA Joe the Plumber) is that I actually can say I have original ideas especially in my field of study, it seems that you live within a very small box w/ the Reich wing megaphone going off all the time repeating the same things over and over.
Think for yourself, don't depend on saviors. The more I read Zinn the more libertarian he sounds (though I think he never would have admitted it). Sometimes. Not enough though. I think had he lived he would have come around and understood that the enemy of liberty is the state, more than anything.
"DESPITE LAWS THAT GOVERN YOUR LOCATION!" --Umm.... No, I read it. That's part of what make it a poor analogy. You can't simply ignore the inherent rules of such a scenario. If I own property, it's a given that there are strings attached (taxes, documentation, rights of defense, etc.). Please, just don't bother trying analogies again, you Liberals are incapable of using them properly "I apologize for not adding this bit to the end" --Oh, now I see why I'm so stupid. I'm not a mind reader
"were held and tortured" --Lie. There's no evidence or claims of torture at GITMO. The Red Cross can attest to that. They made regular inspections & interviews. Those pesky facts again. "does not make them a terrorist" --If he was there after the rest were let go, then he was a terrorist. Even some who were let go returned to terrorist activity. "deserve human rights" --FYI: There's a difference between Human rights, POW rights, & Constitutional rights. So stop the terrorist propaganda.
as for the 'your mind is made up' and 'i can see now why you like zinn so much.' comments, well, that's a very negative, defeatist attitude. you should try to focus on the positives in what i'm saying. or maybe i shouldn't bother because clearly your mind is made up, people are bad and government has only had bumbling mistakes in the course of doing good. doesn't feel good when someone tries to make a strawman out of you after only 600 characters, does it? engage in real discussion or blow away
you're still way off. i'm trying here, and it's tough with the limitations of concision. but it's becoming apparent that you're unwilling to extend your view beyond the political delineations you see yourself inhabiting. that's kinda sad. you're wasting time by not speaking your piece, instead you resort to weak, programmed ad hominem attacks. i truly want to know what these positive things are you speak of. i want to discuss them with you. if you're unwilling, that's unfortunate.
Thank you for posting this. I think Howard Zinn is the most important living American.
Thank you Howard Zinn for your contributions to the world. You left the world a better place, you will be missed.
If Dr. Zinn can expand every chapter of People's History of America into a book, I will give a more positive response to Dr. Zinn, since American history is broader than most of people think.
Remember Howard Zinn now more then ever and stand in solidarity with Wisconsin workers! Solidarity forever, the union makes us strong
knowledge is never negative. you have to study the negative parts to see the positives of the time or create the positives in the present.
i hope we have a better understanding of each other's position on these topics. solidarity forever, my friend.
"Power should never be given to the masses. They wouldn't know what to do with it."
--Good one, Comrade.
A great man and sociologist. Love him
Great upload Howard zinn a very intelligent man peace one love.
I'm glad someone courageously defended the civil rights and constitution of this country while showing a different perspective and truth of a nation that many choose to ignore or repress. After I finish the Indispensable Chomsky, I'm going to re-read the People's History.
Howard Zinn was an awesome individual. His books are insightful and informative.
'The Peoples History of the United States' is a must read for anyone interested in USA History.
He did things to help and educate others not an arrogant, greedy, self-fish person like some trolls on YT.
RIP Mr. Zinn - we all owe you so much.
r.i.p howard you opened a lot of eyes
Thanx for posting this...
Howard Zinn Book, “A Peoples History of the United States,” should be required reading in all US History courses in both high school & university.
yeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssss! it's finally here.
Blues music, rock and roll, american cinema, industrial revolution and the list goes on. It's huge. We may have our sins as a country but compared to others through out history we've done pretty damn good. Powerful and non powerful have contributed great things throughout history. The Soviet Union is a great example of a terrible style of government. I'm not ignoring our history but just have learned from it and moved on and not dwelled on our mistakes.
He is not gone ... heez simply transformed ... heez now 'the wind that blows ... heez now the glint on diamond snow ... in the morning hush ... he is now the swift uplifting rush ...' (paraphrased from 'Do Not Stand at My Grave and Weep')
Thank you
"they DID do that for the first 2.5 years"
--So the military said that? Do you have a link for that?
It was just announced Mr. Zinn passed away. This is unfortunate for any person concerned with justice and peace. The world needs more Zinns, and fewer warhawks, weapon manufacturers, arms dealers, and opportunists.
Mr. Zinn will be missed.
Larry, Taiwan
@ehunter2 You really should write a book, I'm sure we'd all be interested in buying it, reading it... laughing at it.
Zinn was in the Air Force during World War 2 - he was part of the greatest generation that tried to rid the world of tyranny. He was also a part of a generation that had the first experiences with Mechanized Warfare, a deeply scarring experience that turned him into a pacifist, historian and teacher.
One of the main lessons of his life was that his mission was not to rid the world of tyranny. It was to serve imperial interesta
ok, now we have some common ground. time is short on my end right now so i'll make this brief. the mistakes of old were not mistakes. public records confirm this, you can easily find this information. the good things that we have are completely separate in almost every form. the problem is that the 'mistakes' are repeated in a calculated fashion for reasons that are evident to anyone who looks at it logically. moving on or turning a blind eye to the current crimes?
the great howard zinn!!
Please do NOT argue in the comments of this video! Just enjoy it, and if you do not enjoy it, take your complaints somewhere else!
You're referring to the Bush v Gore debate ???
I was wondering why Matt Damon of all people had voiced the audiobook edition.
you don't seem to be reading or understanding what i've written properly. the people's history in this country is vast and incredible. labor movements, civil rights, solidarity, opposition to war, winning freedom of speech. the owners of the country, however, have a very different history. it starts with the genocide of the 'new world' and goes right up until today. imperial capitalists, war pigs, etc. i'll ask again, what are the positive things YOU wish were focused on? [continued...]
I disagree that I'm missing the point. I know we've had bad moments in our history but hearing them over and over again from a tilted angle is over the top. We've made mistakes in our history and we've done really great things as well. Zinn just happens to hype the negative more than the positive. If he would have an equal presenatation that would be fine but he doesn't do that. Go listen to speeches he's given and he thrives on the negative. We need to be looking forward.
"you are the only person throwing insults here"
--Where is the insult in that message?
"DEFEAT WHO?"
--I believe I was specific. In fact, I can quote it for you: "if you wage war on your enemy & defeat him,"
You see, when you fight a war you have an enemy. I didn't realize you you didn't know that.
Let me know after you read the book and can start to make an informed comment. Otherwise, I don't really need to respond anymore.
and mention A People's History of the US, and Manufacturing Consent in Good Will Hunting.
"you've made a fair share of insults"
--Well, you've just wasted a third opportunity to name them. Care to waste a fourth?
"She testified that what had been released was common day practice"
--First, they worked the night shift, no administration around. And second, the C.O. claimed no knowledge, and no evidence proved her wrong.
"why was it being allowed"
--It wasn't, they were doing it in secret. Why wasn't the day shift doing the same thing?
"given another label"
--It does make a difference, just like
"POW" is different than "nonuniformed enemy combatant." In the law & military, words matter.
"HER BOSS WAS GIVEN 10 YEARS! HE WAS USING THAT EVIDENCE AS TRAINING FOOTAGE"
--I'm not lying when I say she claimed no knowledge. And if she did have knowledge, what was her sentence?
@lynchmobb2000
even howard zinn would say "clearly you dont know very much because there are plenty of more important americans living right now"
"Does the location really matter"
--Yes, because GITMO was for terrorists.
"being held without cause"
--The cause was they were suspected of being terrorists. Are you not up on this subject?
"without rights to a lawyer, or due process?"
--They had both, even though they didn't have rights to them.
You're right! I really should not B wasting my time.
as much as i agree with you, maniamediafilms, i think it's time i at least bowed out from this 'discussion' because it's going nowhere. the constraints of youtube comment concision are simply too restricting for genuine meaningful discussion. it takes time to talk about important things and youtube only allows 500 characters, forcing most to take a hardline approach that completely undermines the goals of communication. common ground must be reached to continue.
his totaly right think for your self
I agree that being misinformed is dangerous : ) have a nice day.
"I am talking about the prisons held internally inside of Iraq"
--Those who tortured or mistreated prisoners did so on their own and were punished under military law. It was stopped, it's been admitted, the apologies have been issued, and those responsible punished. YET YOU KEEP DRONING ON ABOUT IT as if it's still going on. Why? Why can't you move on? Or is that too juicy to let go?
"Is there any good replacements?"
--You mean "are there."
The answer is no. And thank God.
You misread Zinn. He doesn't espouse anarchy, he just states the truth that you have to push the leadership. Elect them to power but keep their feet to the fire. Washington today is an insular, insider dome of privilege, prestige and power. They have to be continually, daily, reminded by us, that they are our employees not our over lords.
I know. I mean, he should have done it.
It's not turning a blind eye but more like knowing there are certain things of the past that can't be changed. If there are wrongs of today then they should be dealt with but my whole point was don't keep focussing on negative points. . Through out history there has been and always will be people out to screw someone else over. Every civilization has it's sins but I'm more interested in dealing with current issues than refighting points of slavery in the US for example. Have a good holiday
“Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of self interest backed by force.” - George Bernard Shaw
"In the U.S., some men live very opulent lives and a multitude (of men live) wretchedly poor lives." - Alexis de Toucqueville
"Patriotism is nothing more than the organized group interests of the privileged class." - Bakunin
"Don't bother reading newspapers: I will do all your reading, and I will tell you what to think about it." - Rush Limbaugh in the 1980s.
"why were there detainees there who were NOT terrorists?"
--Many were. Some were not. They were released. Do the police always arrest the right person or only those involved directly? No. I think warfare & a military occupation are a little more chaotic. Mistakes are likely to happen. No one is perfect. And yes, GITMO detainees did have lawyers. Though slow, they had due process wheather you acknowledge it or not.
"NO, they didn't"
--They did. Look it up.
arguments from southern slave owners against the abolition of chattle slavery were very convincing at the time. they said that the northerners disliked slavery because they disliked black racism. slave owners said they were not racist, those slaves were their capital, they owned them. so they respected them and treated them well. wage slaves [like us] are rented, not owned, so we're treated worse and thrown away for a new rented slave. that's a current issue. [more on the way, sorry]
"The facts indicate otherwise"
--Please present that evidence.
"why was it allowed in the first place"
--What part of "on their own" don't you understand? They had no orders to do so, and their C.O. claimed no knowledge of the incidents.
"Water boarding was sanctioned on an Executive level"
--We're not talking about waterboarding. Waterboarding is an enhanced interrogation technique. The guards at Abu Ghraib were torturing or mistreating their prisoners. There was no interrogation.
"general high-mindedness"
--Yes, Oohh, I feel your PAIN. How do you endure it?
"is unwilling to compromise belief"
--And that's now an insult? I need to catch up on these new NewSpeak definitions.
"There are no moderate Republicans"
--Give me an hour or two and I'll name them all for you.
"This is healthy in democracy"
--Is that why they're being threatened by the Obama Admin and Dem groups are calling for their recall?
"slavery in the US is still happening. it's just a more nuanced form"
--Really? Where can I buy some people? Can you tell me? I don't currently own anyone.
"has done little or nothing"
--Well, he bailed some out, and absorbed others into the government. A lot of the money went into the pockets of his cronies & donors, just like he did back in Chicago.
"caused the current economic crisis"
--At least 1/2 the blame for that must go to Congress, which wrote & implemented the rules by which they had to play.
The United States militarized economy is keeping it alive. There are so many financial crushes and corruption scandals that other country's could not withstand. See Other republic's do not have 125 military bases all over the world, 2 wars at the same time and such. Is no wonder is always "doing well". This is just a thought of mine. Please don't attack me or start insults
"NoGuff, you have done nothing to prove your argument's other than fling insults and misconstrued facts and opinions"
--Well, brokendave wrote the same thing. I asked him to cite any examples. Four reponses later from him, nothing. Can you cite any?
"Just because you FEEL that you are right doesn't mean that you are"
--I know what you're saying, but I feel I'm right because I am right.
"opinions disguised as facts"
--And the Left never does that? Damn, just watch Robert Gibbs sometime.
ehunter2, I know U R but what about me?
"So you're saying a Goldman-Sachs lobbyist.... um, working in Bush's cabinet or Czars, was an anti-capitalist? Wow. Can you name him?"
--Oh yeah, you skipped answering that one.
"response was well put. War does not make a nation strong"
--Well, ManiaMediaFilms overlooked the word "and" between the words "wins the wars" and "make America strong." They're used as two different ideas, not a single one.
Wrecking our economy is the opposite of making us strong. I don't expect a Liberal like ManiaMediaFilms to understand.
But to entertain that response out of context & hypothetically, if you wage war on your enemy & defeat him, you don't have to be strong anymore.
slavery in the US is still happening. it's just a more nuanced form. and rehashing historical points about it will help your understanding of the current slave system[s]. like brokendave said above, it's not to just shake a finger at the past, it's to garner a better understanding of the present so we may make an intelligent ORGANIZED kick for the future. [points to be continued]
you have a good holiday as well, friend!
"Did you seriously just change your stance to mine"
--No.
"I must be misinterpreting what you are saying here"
--I'm surprised if Liberals understand anything.
"What about Aljazeera?"
--Oh, you believe what Al Jazeera tells you. That explains everything.
bosses rent them, not own them. and that is worse.
you seem to be missing the point entirely.
Why do so many people have to focus on the bad things in American history and ignore all the great things this country has acheived. It's sad to see the history channel put crap like this on the air. Our acheivements as a great nation outweigh the bad. No country is perfect.
now for the positive part of that coin, and it's a big one; labor unions struck, were beaten and killed, and after long hardship won shorter days, better pay, and better conditions for workers [wage slaves]. that's why there was such harsh repression of unions in this country, we have some of the worst AND BEST labor history in the world. but we can do better, and beat the current slave system. but it requires deep knowledge of the negative parts of history AND how parts were overcome. ......
"I just want to fight them all of now"
--Well, when debating someone who actualy knows what the fuck he's talking about it's good not to insult him while admitting you don't know jack shit.
"I see you ignored my whole comment on the left vs right issue."
--If I don't respond to something specific its because it isn't worth a response or I have no opinion on it.
Oh please give me a break. Are you seriously claiming that he was responsible for all that? That is all a part of countries history but not because of Zinn. He may have wrote about it but so have so many other people. I didn't call him an idiot. He is entitled to his opinion just like everyone else. My problem with Zinn is another person so focussed on negative aspects while leaving out so many positve acheivments like they are nothing.
The greater the power, the more dangerous the abuse.
Edmund Burke
"you made assumptions"
--You mean my facts about GITMO. My only error was in thinking you were referring to GITMO. To me, your above statement is a lie. A cheap, empty one at that.
"how long did it take"
--The amount of time required to discover the truth. You don't seem to realize that, like when the police question a suspect, no one is ever guilty, are they? The truth must be found, it doesn't pop up with a sign.
"How long do you"
--I wouldn't know. Nor would the soldiers at GITMO.
I don't think Howard would want folks to honor him through a flag...
"have different rights"
--Wow, you're not very quick, are you? You didn't even follow the logical progression I laid out for you. POW rights are greater than Human rights. Laws become involved & because more things are offered. Please go find a clue.
"treated humanely"
--They are.
"a fair trail"
--They don't, never have. Why bother, when being a uniformed soldiers gives them immunity from punishment for crimes constituting lawful acts of war? And you ask why I take this tone with you.
@ehunter2 You have a right to see his history the way you deem fit, and, moreover, you can dispute it until your face turns blue. Your intolerance is acceptable and welcome, but no less a distortion. I suspect a liberal-hating agenda is in this (I am not keen on Liberal takes, myself, but I do try to approach history a bit more critically than you seem to do),
"I claimed playing on the word Czar is racist"
--What's the diff? I used it properly, as anyone else uses it, as anyone in the news uses it, as Obama himself used it
"You know what you are doing"
--No, but I know what you're doing when you raise such false accusations
"your minions ... could be racist"
--First, I don't have minions. And second, Liberals are far more likely to be racists than Conservatives
"creating more hatred"
--HA!! Obama does that well enough all by himself
@tomestubbs why waste your time arguing with a fool? He's not interested in learning anything about reality, just throwing out crap. Every time you reply, he sees in in his inbox and his little eyes light up. as Clint Eastwood said in Heartbreak Ridge, "Don't give the prick the satisfaction".
@ehunter2 Well, he did have a conversion of sorts. The fact that he chose to expose a side of American history in a fashion different from the normal, coat rack kind, has a lot to do with his own personal demons...perhaps. None the less, his accounts of historical events are no less cogent and necessary. Thorns in one's side hardly make for compelling argument!
"Saddam Hussein had complied with UN weapons inspectors a decade ago"
--Only when threatened with imminent force. His compliance was not consistently offered, nor was it ever complete. In the year+ leading up to invasion they stopped allowing inspections, thereby being in violation of UN resolutions. Iraq also fired on our aircraft violating the cease fire agreement, which gave us complete discretion for invasion & Hussein's removal. Those are the facts. You choose to spew enemy propaganda.
It's good to question and defy Empire. u R just a loyal subject of the Reich Wing.
"leftist? I don't think what they are speaking about has much to do with the left and the right, but rather the commonalities between us."
--Well, hold my hand and let's all sing Kum-bi-ya.
And then we can all turn off our brains and seal our eyes & ears closed and be good little minions, just like you.
Uhhhh ... hi. You didn't answer any of the questions I posd to you; you merely reiterated your original statement.
I asked "What did Zinn distort?" you replied "Zinn distorts every single thing." Duh.
You've listed several historical events Zinn does & does not include in his work, but no single example of "distorting" history. I could easily make a similar claim for writers who've chosen not to write about the things Zinn does write about. But then, you're a right winger.
@ehunter2 -- Yeah maybe there's a woman like Dollinger you could beat up on tough guy. Thats about your speed.
"Dismiss every fact I bring"
--Youf facts are bullshit. If an eye-witness describes something either he either wants to impart as part of a propaganda effort, or he simply doesn't understand what he's witnesses, then that is not a fact contributing to your argument. It's bullshit.
"claim you are the only one who has brought any facts to the table"
--I am, since you have been totally unable to blow any of them down, and your "facts" lie shattered on the ground.
@ehunter2 Back up your claims. What did Zinn distort? About what did he lie? In what way did his work exhibit self pity? In what way did he exploit gullible people?
In fact, each of these claims could be leveled -- and far more accurately -- at right wing nabobs.
Really, men as Howard Zinn are of such unreproachable common sense. It seems that the fog has once again descended on western culture, and I dare ask if such men, as Zinn, will rise out of our culture's morass.
"or Democracy Now?"
--You mean "Communism Now?"
Say--can U make sense and read the book before judging it, I mean if you read books over 10 pages rather than Repiglican talking points.
Actually, ALL of that is covered in the book "The People's History of the United States". I suggest you get off the computer and read it instead of making uninformed and ignorant statements.
All of the Chinese workers in the world could work on the railroads, but without the men who understood how it works and fits together, they would still be standing there.
I can at least say ehunter2 (AKA Joe the Plumber) is that I actually can say I have original ideas especially in my field of study, it seems that you live within a very small box w/ the Reich wing megaphone going off all the time repeating the same things over and over.
he's dead, man
Think for yourself, don't depend on saviors. The more I read Zinn the more libertarian he sounds (though I think he never would have admitted it). Sometimes. Not enough though. I think had he lived he would have come around and understood that the enemy of liberty is the state, more than anything.
R Depend Diapers Biodegradable? U R such a consumerist talking about products, why not try being a citizen instead. Hmmmm. Trotsky a good read.
"DESPITE LAWS THAT GOVERN YOUR LOCATION!"
--Umm.... No, I read it. That's part of what make it a poor analogy. You can't simply ignore the inherent rules of such a scenario. If I own property, it's a given that there are strings attached (taxes, documentation, rights of defense, etc.).
Please, just don't bother trying analogies again, you Liberals are incapable of using them properly
"I apologize for not adding this bit to the end"
--Oh, now I see why I'm so stupid. I'm not a mind reader
"were held and tortured"
--Lie. There's no evidence or claims of torture at GITMO. The Red Cross can attest to that. They made regular inspections & interviews. Those pesky facts again.
"does not make them a terrorist"
--If he was there after the rest were let go, then he was a terrorist. Even some who were let go returned to terrorist activity.
"deserve human rights"
--FYI: There's a difference between Human rights, POW rights, & Constitutional rights. So stop the terrorist propaganda.
as for the 'your mind is made up' and 'i can see now why you like zinn so much.' comments, well, that's a very negative, defeatist attitude. you should try to focus on the positives in what i'm saying. or maybe i shouldn't bother because clearly your mind is made up, people are bad and government has only had bumbling mistakes in the course of doing good.
doesn't feel good when someone tries to make a strawman out of you after only 600 characters, does it? engage in real discussion or blow away
Can you give one example of Zinn's propoganda?
If you like Chomsky & Howard Zinn, then you are boring
you're still way off. i'm trying here, and it's tough with the limitations of concision. but it's becoming apparent that you're unwilling to extend your view beyond the political delineations you see yourself inhabiting. that's kinda sad.
you're wasting time by not speaking your piece, instead you resort to weak, programmed ad hominem attacks.
i truly want to know what these positive things are you speak of. i want to discuss them with you. if you're unwilling, that's unfortunate.