As a flyer, who wears the proud "Wings of Gold", I knew of his WW II reputation and standing with his fellow aviators. I accepted the fact he was not perfect, (who is?), but that went along with the "daredevil" attitude that gave him the multiple opportunities to earn his storied aviation accomplishments. I had the good fortune to meet him at an airshow. It was early morning, he was seriously hung over, but graciously signed my book, and over coffee, we proceeded to have a conversation about some of the high points in his book. This Naval Aviator counts that meeting as a very memorable career moment. Thank you Sir, for your service.
I saw his Pilots license #15 of all licenses issues in aviation. Pappy was flying when the airplane was just invented. He was like a Chuck Yaeger of the aviation home brew computing club, king of barnstorming before it was invented, pushing the outside edge of the envelope when people didn't know what that edge or an envelope was, creating the science of 5he aerial dogfight from scratch. Boyington should've been made a four star general of the Army Air Force or a Marine Aviation Wing of the USMC. His contribution to aviation history is that important. As for drinking, all I can say is he lacked cowardice before he hit the bottle and was able to fly anyway. People invent rules because they lack courage and conviction and like to couch potato quarterback the game of much greater men. If people can't see Pappy Boyington was a co-inventor and developer of the science and art of the aerial dog fight, they're just useless wretches who are crazy Communists. Even the Russians appreciate 2hobPappy Boyington is. How come Americans don't?
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL Another good video might be one on the assassination theories surrounding Patton. GREAT EPISODE, glad I found this wonderful channel.
Sounds like an extreme asshole. Living it up as a POW while the others starve tells me the true character of the man. Thousands of men were, and are, good pilots, and many men loved their commanders or pilots in a bomber crew. None of that is extraordinary. To get the cushy position as a POW and gain weight means he probably gave the Japanese something they wanted. Not perfect? Boyington sounds like a selfish prick.
Boyington was my childhood hero. I was raised by my grandfather, who was a pilot, so as a boy in the 70s Black Sheep Squadron was a must watch and Conrad’s portrayal of Boyington easily turned him into a character worthy of hero worship. To my good fortune I met Pappy in 1977 when I was 9. He appeared at an airshow at our airport where my grandfather kept his Cessna. I remember how nice Pappy was to me, answering my questions, posing for a Polaroid with me, which he signed along with the book and lithograph my grandfather bought for me from Boyington. The best part was when I asked Pappy if Mike Kawato, who was also appearing at the airshow, really shot him down. Pappy looked at me and said “He’s full of $#!+. He’s not the guy who shot me down!” and basically explained that he’d been humoring Kawato all along about his claim... which to my understanding time has proved Pappy right. I’ll just say this about Boyington now that I’m an adult. As I’ve learned, he wasn’t a perfect man, but neither am I. I still admire him as an adult, now for showing me a flawed individual is still capable of accomplishing great things in their lifetime, and that people can be complicated. While his flaws and mine are distinctly different, he reminds me that I’m still capable of making great accomplishments for the greater good regardless of how other see me. Plus he left a great impression on this, a then 9 year old kid. I say Pappy was a Hero.
Thanks for sharing, Sir! Real life events often show there is more to people than their reputation. Yours and others' stories seem to me to support that at heart, he was a genuinely personable guy, when not drunk, and I think that is a truth about the man that jives with his hard won accomplishments in battle - he did care about others, but struggled with his own demons. As you say, don't we all to some degree. I think we can say he came from humble roots and did his best in a world that grew many fold in size and complexity with his living. He didn't always succeed, but he sure fought hard and with passion to try. It's clear that on several occaisions when others told him he could NOT do things, he found a way to DO them anyways! I recently purchased his book. I look forward to learning more about this complicated and colorful WWII fighter pilot. I also grew up watching the 1970's TV Show. I think that helped form my interest in Flying Fighters of all Eras. Best Wishes to You!
As a young Marine in 1977, I was assigned to work at El Toro MCAS in the base commissary, Pappy would come there to shop like many retired military at the time. I was able to personally meet and talk to him, however, I cannot remember any of the small talk except for one thing, him teasing me about my great duty. LOL! I did not see him as a hero, I saw him as a real human. he was in civilian clothes and was down to earth. as were all of the retired military folks who shop at the commissary. to me, meeting him was just like meeting anyone and I believe that he was a great Marine and I am thankful that I got to meet him. Semper Fi
I met Colonel Boyington several times at the Reno Air Races. He had a booth there selling books and other swag related to his career. He was somewhat aloof around other pilots but would engage in conversation and I found him to be a nice guy. I knew he was a partier and drank but I'm pretty sure he was sober at Reno. Interesting to note that more than a few 'famous' pilots were known to be abrasive and confrontational. Chuck Yeager comes to mind. He was not the nicest guy at the party and he snubbed me several times when I welcomed him aboard my aircraft, giving him a ride back to Sacramento from Burbank.
Go earn the Medal of Honor and I’ll entertain your opinion, until then, be grateful. He never had anything handed to him, and suffered in a POW camp a long time.
Thank you for this video on Greg "Pappy" Boyington WWII pilot. My Father was also a Marine in the Pacific and was a mechanic with Boyington. Dad never told us much of what he did there but was proud of his service during the Pacific war. He was a changed man when he left the service according to his sister. I know that war can cause men to do things they would not normally do. Some are better and many are worse. I have always wondered how a boy/man in their teens and early 20's could do some of the incredible things that they were called upon to do . I am sure it changed them. We as a nation have much to thank our military for. WWII had many very brave men and women that sacrificed to keep America going.
After over 20 years of service to my nation I can tell you not much turned out as expected but at the end of the day we got the job done. Regards to you and those you support and love.
Redfire122: as a Marine I can tell you that many of us are and have been complicated creatures. We’re enthusiastic about our mission which is to close with contact and destroy the enemy, but we also aren’t all altar boys. With Boyington, he wasn’t any more belligerent than some Marines I’ve known,. But where he drew the ire of his brethren was his book on the 214. When the series came around he was willing to aid poetic license with more drama about the “misfits and screwballs” issue. This created blowback from his old unit. As far as Boyington being combat-ineffective due to drunkenness, I’d say this is likely not too accurate. It’s well known that he would always fly the Corsair with the most problems on any mission-sparing his men from potential complications. That’s leadership and bravery
That's a real Marine Chesty Puller wouldn't let his men pull point in the Korean War because they didn't know what the hell they were doing. These kids they got coming out of boot camp-fresh out of diapers! I would never be an old man and tell someone to take point, that's insanity. They don't practice musket rifle and bayonet drills like they did in the Civil War. They run clicks instead of miles. Really, what is a click? Godless French heathenism. But that thing, the kids fresh off their Mama's tatas, that haunts you. I know what Pappy thought and what General Puller thought, they had to take the crappiest detail, they were there when it was 8nvented, and their leadership by example taught the younger generation. These kids are too young we're sending to war. You need old men with shitty attitudes killing the enemy and leading the way. Leading by example and hopefully it's a good one. But I would never let a kid who's hardly out of grade school take the shitty detail because he doesn't know what's going on. They're not the squad leader's sons, but they are somebody else's and that's the problem. Pappy had been flying since the airplane was invented. The media always hates a hero because hard work and self sacrifice and leadership mean nothing to them. That only raises respect for him that he took the shitty airplane. Something you don't hear very often!
I like the story, or legend, of him of choosing new or worst pilot in his sqd. to be his wingman. This jives with another story of another officer, an F-4(Cor D), a USAF Colonel, of choosing the newest or worst WSO in sqd. to be his WSO.
To those implying this video is a kind of hit job on a national hero, I have good reason to believe it is an accurate presentation. My dad flew Corsairs, and was awarded the DFC for his actions over Rabaul. He rarely talked about the war, but he did say that he, and all the other pilots he knew detested Boyington, for all the reasons so well explained in the video. It is possible to do valuable, and sometimes heroic, service to your country and at the same time be a top-class jerk.
True story: I worked with a guy who is originally from Fresno, CA and he was a school kid when "Baa, Baa, Blacksheep" first aired on television. He once told me a story of looking up Gregory Boyington in the local Fresno phone book and calling the number. To his boyhood surprise, the line picked up and he was speaking directly to Pappy Boyington. My co-worker could barely get the words out but was able to ask Pappy Boyington how true and realistic the story lines in the TV series were. He was met with something like, "Kid, do you know what 'dramatization' means? Look it up!" My co-worker also related Mr. Boyington was well known by the local police for creating trouble in the Fresno bars. He was known to be a very mean drunk. What is often not mentioned in stories about Pappy Boyington is his educational and collegiate background. He earned an aeronautical engineering degree from University of Washington, attending that school under ROTC while also participating in the wrestling and swim teams. So, for all his faults, Boyington was no dummy.
The top three easiest degrees are: a) Psychology, b) Sociology, and c) Communications. It's a wonder that any of those three degrees are acceptable to the Military for entry into Pilot School. 😒
@@jamesburns2232 While stationed at El Toro, I worked with a Major who's degree was "Physical Education". He was a nice guy and made light of his degree allowing him to fly 65 million dollar FA-18s.
The guys from the squadron that I corresponded with for a book (yet unpublished) were not happy with the way the squadron was portrayed in that show. I was a kid when it was on and loved it (I was also a Wild Wild West fan so....). I have managed to compartmentalize the two stories, one of the real guys who put their butts on the line for their country and the actors who were reading scripts and playing at being pilots. It's the way to stay sane. And, for what it's worth, the Marines don't keep dummies too long, they look for the guys who are a bit on the "character" side and who can be built up to be Marines. I'm the big sister of one, and he's a character, believe me, so I know. :)
@@charlayned - The Marines would rather have a Kubrick "Full Metal Jacket" weekly TV series realistic. Sorry, this is like saying the Mash units hated Mash for not being realistic and making it entertaining instead. Wake up! It's Hollywood for entertainment. They added sexy nurses who never existed - oh my for love stories?!
You would be hard pressed to find a more controversial man. Both loved and hated at the same time. The one thing that sticks in my craw is his failure to help his fellow POWs. But the fact remains he is a true American hero that the Japanese feared when he was airborne. As always , great show Mike. Enjoyed.
Another M.o.H. winner was also an a***h*le (allegedly, despite his truly- commendable single-handed fire-fighting and gunnery exploits): Maynard "Snuffy" Smith, who saved a B-17 over Europe .He was said by some Army Air Corps colleagues to have been "a real f***-up" as a person.
Not helping fellow POWs? My bet is that his face features made him look not American so he could be treated different. At the time there was a lot of racism in both ways and Japanese under Kwantung army rulung would not go easy on those helping enemies, even if POWs. So I see it as a survival strategy. In the Japanese side he could not afford to have enemies while being POW.
@@aquarius5719 listening to some of his fellow POWS they insinuating he could have done so to save their lives without being caught. I don't know . I wasn't there, they were . As a veteran I can tell you if I were there I would have done so.
Well said. As despised as the fellow POW issue made him, who can truely fault somone for surviving deadly situation, by not having the "courage" to risk it. I'd say that's a question most of us are VERY FORTUNATE not to have to make, OR KNOW ahead of time exactly what we would do. Also, No one knows what the situation really was. Maybe he actually cared for someone who was helping him? If so, it would have been in keeping with his character not to put them at risk. As most everyone commenting on this video has expressed, judgement is a tricky thing- let him who has not sinned throw the first stone... I tend to have compassion for the good the man clearly did, and that he frequently would talk personably to complete strangers, and did not think "too highly" of his own person, such that he didn't care or have compassion for his fellow man. To me, that is one of the best qualities on man can have for another.
I grew up watching "Black Sheep Squadron", and I was in the Marines when he passed. I served with many Marines who had belligerent attitudes and sometimes I wished bad things for them, but when shit hits the fan, these are the Marines you want by your side. Even Chesty Puller quoted, "Take me to the brig, so I can see the 'real Marines'".
If Puller actually said that he was a damn fool. He was a general, you know, in command of men of which following orders is literally the #1,2,3,4,5...priorities. Yes, those assholes may be able to fight well, but they are always stupid and impetuous so they typically die very quickly, and take several of their own with them. Boyington was a gifted flyer without a doubt, but he was still a grade-A asshole. Killing other humans in war does not negate being a horrible human being.
@@tedwojtasik8781 the USMC prior to the mid 80’s was a totally different organization than what we know today. Chesty led the same whether peace time or war. He was a natural leader and envied deeply by his peers. One of his SGTMJs was a close friend of mine. Like his cousin Gen Patton he had the ability to spark ⚡️ fires within people, oftentimes in a unorthodox manner.
@@tonylittle8634 I was in the USMC from 86'-90', I think I know USMC history. BTW, my hero, the REAL hero is, was, and shall ever be Gen. Smedley Butler, the greatest soldier to ever live, hands down.
Our Marine unit once invited Col. Boyington to be at our guest at the upcoming Marine Corps Birthday Ball, but he said he was on "the Wagon", (again), and didn't want to take the chance of being around an open bar. That was a few years before his death, and I believe he was living in Fresno at the time. I don't know if he "fell of the Wagon" again, but we all respected him for his effort. John Barleycorn is a hard guy to beat.
As a young boy, I attended an air show in Vancouver, WA. It was there I got to meet Col. Boyington. We spoke a few kind words to each other and he signed my paperback copy of Baa Baa Black Sheep. He told me he was grateful that I purchased his book, hoped I'd enjoyed it and I told him it was a privilege to meet him and that it was a good book. I wish I'd gotten a picture with him. The memory lives only in my mind today and I'm reminded of it when I see that battered paperback in my book collection. Thank you for not forgetting his history!
I had the honor, as a teenager, to sit and talk with the Japanese pilot who shot Pappy down and made him a POW at the Wings Over Houston Airshow in the late eighties. It was the end of the day and the crowd was thinning. There was no one at his booth and he sat and talked to me one on one for ten to fifteen minutes. He discussed the dogfight with Boyington with all the hand gestures one would expect. It was an awesome experience that I have thought back in often over the years.
My brother was at that airshow! He was with the reenactors and got a chance to talk to the pilot as well. It was one of his favorite memories. As he said, "The war is over, it is time to put this to rest."
Very informative video. I grew up loving Baa Baa Black sheep. I feel now I have the rest of the story. How can a man be a 100% hero and 100% something else?
Back in the late summer of 1981 Boyington was a guest of honor at an International Plastic Modelers' Society regional contest in Atlanta. A good friend of mine, an Atlanta police officer, was in charge of security for the event, which also featured a display of AVG items. My friend stated that his main job was keeping Boyington sober enough so he could make his speech the next day...
This was war. A quote comes to mind from the movie, 'Big Jake': "It is I think going to be a very harsh and unpleasant kind of business and will I think require an extremely harsh and unpleasant kind of man." The journey from civil society to warrior is possible, the transition back is what's difficult. Men in general were different then, too. Recently I had to restrain an 85+ year old veteran from trying to take on somebody who told him to sit down.
One of the Black Sheep Pilots visited my grade school in 1977. He told us some stories of the war and Pappy. He never said anything bad about him. The 4th 5th and 6th grade classes were given Pappy's Address in Fresno, California.. Many of us boys wrote letters. He answered a few and sent Everyone an Autographed picture of him sitting on the wing of his F4U-1 Corsair.. I still have it.. I have never heard any of these stories about his character.. when none of them are alive to respond
As a Member of the Black sheep it was probably best to gloss over people's faults. There is little reason to make others look bad. Bvt major general Custer is another such hero, controversial in his own day but the documents show a checkered history.
@@D60433 - Oh and don't mention famous angry A-hole snowflakes in tennis - Conners and McEnroe and that was on the court! I'll take a flawed warrior willing to really fight anyone, any time and any day. That's why Pappy called himself a bum at times.
Your video plus other information I have gathered over the years about "Pappy" shows a very tragic parallel to George Custer. They both were national heros, they both had more detractors than promoters, were both great leaders of men, fearless to a fault and horrible family men. And both of them had tragic ends of completely different proportions. While George Custer lost his life at little big horn in the prime of his career, it took many years for the truth to come out about him. Where Major Boyington was able to live out his life and his reputation hit a downward slide from the time he got back from the war until his death. Tragic.
Like a lot of kid I grew up watching baba black sheep and grew up idolizing Pappy Boyington. But during time I also found a love for WWII history, especially the South Pacific. And I read some of the other books that mention Pappy and got a fuller picture of who he was. And honestly in my eyes it didn't make him any less of a hero oh, just a flawed when like so many are. And honestly it sometimes takes men like him that are complete f****** in life, that end up shining in combat. Irregardless of his misdeeds, it took courage to get up there and do what he did and you can never take that away from him. You just have to remember he was flawed like all of us
Excellent job as always, Dr Heaton! Real, actual history is frequently tainted with all sorts of bad, even evil things in combination with great, honorable things. And both need to be known. Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. We cannot learn from the past as history without the truth. Once again, thank you. Bravo! Rest in peace, Greg Boyington. Semper Fidelis. Via con Dios!
Thank you for the video. I met Boyington twice as a kid. He was kind and friendly on both occasions. As an adult, I found out that one of my neighbors went to the UW with Hallenbeck/Boyington. He felt that drinking in the Corps changed Greg a great deal. He wasn't the same when he came back from Pensacola and Burma. He also said that Greg was absolutely tenacious at getting reinstated into the USMC. Obviously Greg Boyington was flawed, but I believe most of us are in one aspect or another.
Pappy Boyington is one of the greatest examples of the adage, “the right man, at the right place, at the right time.” For all of his flaws, he brilliantly and bravely led one of the most effective fighter squadrons in the Pacific theater. For that alone, he will always be a hero to me.
Thanks for telling the unvarnished truth about Greg Boyington, the Ty Cobb of American WWII fighter pilots. I read Boyington's autobiography in college while the TV series was airing its first season. It is an entertaining book in which he freely admits to being combative and an alcoholic, but there is much he whitewashes. It wasn't until several decades later that I learned some darker facts about him which even this video did not touch on. To say he was a self-serving SOB is an understatement and perhaps this sentiment is best summarized by the last line in his biography. As I recall, it was "Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum." This idea certainly applied to Pappy, but I'll be damned if it ever applied to men such as Joe Foss, Jim Howard, and Tex Hill.
@@jamesdeen3011 I can only make an uneducated guess. I suspect that for many years after the War the senior USMC and Navy leadership were trying to protect the reputation of the Corps and by extension, maintain high American trust in the organization. Today it may have more to do with bureaucratic inertia and indifference, or a desire not to besmirch the reputations of those senior officers and Navy Department civilians who covered up Boyington's many misdeeds. If a historian wants to deconstruct a war hero, he can do so with the information currently available, but don't expect the Department of Defense to assist. It does not benefit the organization to acknowledge the skeletons in the closets of famous WWII leaders such as MacArthur, Patton, Eisenhower, or Mark Clark (well, maybe Clark could be exposed with minimal damage).
@@Paladin1873 lol,I would venture to say Gen Clark could be outed with no damage. As for your answer to my question it makes sense, never shoot inside the same tent. I still think I still think it is an injustice to Col. Foss.
@@jamesdeen3011 It is, but I believe Joe Foss was a man of great character who would not have been too off-put by the slight if it was perceived to have been done for the good of the Corps. From a purely pragmatic perspective, not being fully recognized for your accomplishments is a minor annoyance when you consider how many men never came home or returned with shattered bodies and psyches.
Boyington came it with my favorite and daily quote I truly belief, "You show me a hero and I will show you a bum!" How true and how much it applies to a lot of people.
I met Robert Bruce Porter in the late 80's when I was a kid. He was a night fighter ace in WW2. He said he gave Pappy a place to live for his last years before passing away. Interesting stories that I'm sure were softened for my young ears.
I got to meet Pappy at the Oshkosh Airshow in 1980, he autographed my copy of his autobiography. Also got an autographed picture from the Japanese pilot who shot him down, they were friends and camped together at the Airshow. Years later I asked Tex Hill and RT Smith about Pappy" s time with the Flying Tigers and they said that "it was tough to get kicked out of the Tigers....and Pappy was the only one to do it. "
Thank you for letting us decide our own views on Boyington. I currently live five miles from Pappy Boyington field in Hayden Idaho, that's just north of Coeur d' Alene Idaho. I go to the American legion down the street from me and they have lots of pictures and history about Boyington on their walls. It's nice to hear another perspective on this WWII hero/villain. He was a man of the greatest generation and part of WWII, for that alone he is and always be a hero to me.
And he should be considered a hero. We did not target him for denigration, but to be honest to the history you must provide all views and evidence to be examined. Thanks for watching.
Boyington was a hero, with feet of clay. Most people do. His biggest failing was John Barleycorn. I met him at an airshow, he was was very very nice and kind to me.
Wow, thanks for the great insight. It's pretty obvious that alcohol rarely enhances a person's character but it's pretty tough to fault anyone for drinking it when they're putting their lives on the line all the time.
I was so fortunate to speak briefly with him on the phone in late 1987 . He sold me 2 books he wrote and signed them. I still have them tucked away. I still think he was the best USMC flyer in his day.
Wartime hero IMHO. I also met him at an airshow in 76 or 77 and he signed my copy of his biography. Still have it to this day and it's a cherished possession.
Former Marine and Army myself. Love history and love your channel. A lot of the WW2 folks were lionized. You have to be suspicious of “Spotlight Rangers.”
“Above the Pacific” just arrived and I’m really enjoying the read, Mr Heaton. I’ve read Boyington’s book and two written by Bruce Gamble, so I’m familiar with “Pappy’s” story, but reading his story as told in your interviews is fascinating. I can’t wait to read the Foss interview; I’m portraying Foss as an aviation re-enactor, and I’ve really enjoyed telling his story as I learn more about him. Thank you for what you do.
He’s a survivor and unfortunately with that trait a lot of good but a hell of a lot more bad can come with it. Like my childhood best friend said after he was done with his service in the USMC. You will meet some of the best friends you will have ever in life, and some of your worst enemies. In the end we all suffer from the human condition.
As an Army Airborne vet and former commercial pilot, I grew up loving both the military and aviation. My childhood heros were Gen. Patton, Pappy Boyington, Audie Murphy and my uncle, USAAF B24 pilot/retired USAF/SAC Commander Clinton Weissenbach (order not relevant). I modeled myself after these men (the parts that were presented to the public eye) in Military School, in the Army and in aviation. We need heroes, we need roll models. Sometimes it is better if only see the perceived persona and not the personal, perhaps darker, sides of our heroes and model ourselves after that conception. In Areonautical College, when all my much younger classmates and instructors began calling me "Pappy" (both because of my age and my admiration for Boyington) I wore that nickname like a badge of honor, and still do to this day.
I read Bruce Gambles book about the life of Greg "Pappy" Boyington, more than once, several years ago. I found it riveting. I gave it to a friend and he tells me he thoroughly enjoyed it. I must say Sir, with no disrespect intended, that you almost completely focused on his bad deeds while nearly omitting the many heroic feats he achieved. I'm well aware that he claimed 3 kills in the AVG more than he actually shot down. He did destroy them though,albeit on the ground. Even so, after Pearl Harbor and especially Wake Island and Midway, U.S. forces hardly had any pilots that had shot down 3-4 enemy planes. He went to Burma because he was desperate to make money. It's true he and Claire Chenault despised one another. But Claire was not right about everything. After quitting and making it back to the States, it all might have ended there but for his persistence in hounding the Corp. to commission him. The ONLY reason they allowed him back was because of his experience, of which so few had. In his first mission over the Solomons, with many Marine Corp pilots as witnesses, he shot down 5 (five) enemy fighters in one 360 degree turn. I hate the fact that he was an alcoholic. I can't defend him there. He had many faults. We all do. I'm sorry Joe Foss did not receive the accolades he richly deserved. But my word man, with a World War on I wish you would focus your energy on exposing the real villains who are destroying this nation and stop trying to discredit one of our flawed hero's....God bless
Strongly disagree. One of the biggest problems we face today is unabashed charismatic hero and flag worship. The generations brainwashed with propaganda like “George Washington could not tell a lie” and raised on essentially a fictionalized version of American history sadly miss out. American history is even more fascinating warts and all. The reality is that some humans don’t fit well into peacetime (see “Patton, George S, Jr”) and don’t fit the mold of a 1930s German propaganda poster. Which, by the way, is essentially the same playbook used for American history through the 1980s complete with compulsory flag worship to The Motherland and hero worship indoctrination. These people may not be very nice or very good and are flawed, that doesn’t mean they can’t love their country or be heroic. I’d argue against you that discussing the reality of someone like Boyington not only doesn’t tear him down, it highlights his accomplishments even more. I grew up in a small town with an older Medal of Honor winner, and I have to tell you, he was nutty as a fruitcake and honestly a real ass at times. Not a nice man. That still doesn’t take away the amazing heroism he displayed and in fact showed that he was capable of caring to a degree he didn’t display often in real life. And stop with the paranoid nonsense at the end. Just … stop.
@@lsdzheeusi when that thing must stop, then I will say straight up the words, you shall get stopped by others as well. you just like'em, even so different But it's no difference like making nonsense. so yeah, I think nothing but you deserved to get stopped as well.
Boyington sounds like a A-class pilot to have on your side but I wouldn’t want to be friends with him. BTW you should do a show on Frank Luke, the first airman to win the Medal of Honour after an absolutely badass last stand.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but: very unforgiving for simply mistakes: where do you get men like that? And How do you return them to human after? 🙏
I got the pleasure of meeting the real Pappy Boyington at an air show in Red Bluff ca back in 1984 he was a very kind man and he even autographed his book Baa Baa Black Sheep for me I still have it to this day
If some (especially critics) have not read his book then they need to do so. In his memoir -especially his years as an abused POW in Japan- he paints a sober picture of the war he experienced and how it affected him from the moment he parachuted down. In my opinion, he paints a broad argument that is really anti-war in its essence. It is not a pro-war scree as I first expected. One can only have more respect for him and his arguments about not waging all out war as one of humanity’s highest moments. I enjoyed his story much more than biographies about “Chesty” Puller or McArthur.
He was a man of his day. Drinking was not frowned upon as much, in fact it was encouraged. He was a man of heroic acts of Valor, along with all the trimmings of narcissism... Narcissism is a mental disorder, not something you can control. And quite frankly, it is a dangerous mental disorder, very dangerous.
Oh yeah I have known clinically diagnosed Narcissistic people and that's true,they can be really good as an individual but the narcissism doesn't go.ever.
The Black sheep squadron and pappy Boynton one of my favorite stories world war II. I watched the show as a kid. Black sheep squadron. Learned a lot from that. Ruffians that flew like the devil s
There are two books written by Bruce Gamble that I recommend reading if you can find them in print. 'The Black Sheep: The Definitive Account of Marine Fighting Squadron 214 in World War II' and 'Black Sheep One: The Life of Gregory "Pappy" Boyington'. Their both very good reads on the men of the 214 and Gregory Boyington.
He was a drunk, a trouble maker and a braggart but even with all his faults I have never heard a single person say they didn't want Pappy on their side in a fight!
Got to meet Greg (Pappy) Boyington in 1982 at Naval Air Station Dallas while with VMAF-112 The Cowboy Squadron a Marine Reserve Unit when he flew in and parked his Corsair with the the F-4J Phantom's unit for an airshow. It was an honor to get to talk with him. He was going to some minor work done across the runway at rhe LTV Corp. Then so he came in about a week early so it could be done.
A coworker of mine flew Corsairs in WW2 and Korea. He intensely disliked Boyington more than the Japanese because Boyington had refused to help a pilot from another group who was under attack, resulting in that pilot getting shot down and killed.
I flew twenty years in the USMC in helicopters and tactical jets. You might be surprised at the level of animosity that can exist between fellow aviators in the same unit and even more so for the guys down the street. It's extremely competitive and professional jealousy is rather commonplace. As well, there are teetotalers serving side by side with drunkards and that can cause problems. Most of what you present sounds like sour grapes, jealousy and personality differences from those critical of Boyington. I read his book and have a pretty good idea of who he was because I knew many like him although his more noteworthy antics would have gotten him thrown out quick in my era flying beginning in the 80s. If his MOH reads 28 kills that's good enough for me. No matter the true story his book and the hit TV series must have really grated on some of these fellows.
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL I'd like to see you do something on Admiral Rickover, the father of the nuclear Navy. He and Boyington share some parallels. Rickover wasn't much liked in the Navy and was on his way to an unremarkable career. Then he was sent to a post war conference meant to evaluate peaceful uses of nuclear fission. He immediately saw that nuclear power could revolutionize submarine propulsion. Through his grit, powers of organization and engineering genius he headed up the development of nuclear power. The USS Nautilus sailed in about a decade after this organizational meeting. You probably know that he headed up Navy nuclear power for the next twenty years or so. What you might not know is that the Navy kept trying to retire him. He still wasn't liked by Navy leadership. Congress intervened to keep him and promote him. I think he eventually made Vice Admiral. It's all in the biography Rickover: Controversy and Genius. Thanks for your work on Boyington. These heroes need to be remembered.
Being a USN Aviation Maintenance Officer, former enlisted. You so accurately stated "It's extremely competitive and professional jealousy is rather commonplace. As well, there are teetotalers serving side by side with drunkards and that can cause problems. " That is spot on. As is "Most of what you present sounds like sour grapes, jealousy and personality differences ". Hard chargers, get er done guys always rub the PC the wrong way.... and your reputation will suffer for it. Even more so now in the New Navy. What is forgotten is although you may be brash - seemingly a mean asshole - is that you got the mission done, you trained others, and put the aircraft in the air to go across the beach. There is alot more to it than that from a ground pounder prospective..... LCDR LDO, USN Ret. 1974 - 2004.
@@DaveChristopherson Semper Fi, Dave...I think I would have liked to have flown with Boyington. His kind was nearly extinct by the 90s and I think to our detriment. Things change. The real warriors need to blaze the trail for the future. You beat me by ten years. I was active 1984-2004.
I knew and had read about pappy ,I even still watch the show when it comes on tv. A lot of my favorite tv actors on that show. The story about the prison camp apparently has elluded me all of these years. Yes he was definitely a scrapper , never did know why he received the MOH but he did. It's like finding out that babe Ruth wasn't a top notch athlete.
Having spoken at length with my Dad, who was a POW more than once, he said there were so many that became pricks when it even slightly appeared that someone wasn't suffering as much as they did. Also, anyone that wotked around food had it great by comparison as they could sneak a bite of food every now and again but could never take any. They were hared by the jealous and envious. My Dad had no ill will toward them and neither did his friends. They knew the score and a person would have to be a fool not to take that bite whenever and wherever they could, and without being beaten to deformity or even shot for stealing that food. My Dad was in WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Most of him came home in 1973. We (Mom and I @ age 9) picked him up at the airport where he was spit at and yelled at upon exiting the building. What a welcome. He drank himself nearly to death until 1982. He put himself in the hospital to quit drinking and get help. He went on to be an editor if the local newspaper and then 10 tears as the VA rep and helped hundred of vets get the help and respect they deserved. Command Sargeant Major Retired. R.I.P.
I met Col Boyington when I was a kid through my father who was a Army Col at the time. Even though my father said he was a jerk, he also said he was a great pilot and a great leader. At this period of time, we needed tough guys who could produce results, and he did. His personal actions were overlooked because what he and the 214 had accomplished. After he was a POW that's a different story. He just looked after himself and I can understand the conflict. But as his ability as a fighter pilot and leader are undeniable. Growing up in Europe and at military bases through the world, I have met many veterans who served from WW2 through Vietnam. Col Boyington and others were why I joined the Marines. He was no Audie Murphy, but he was what was needed at that particular time and place.
Greg’s famous quote is: “Show me a hero and I’ll show you a bum.” He had great self-awareness. There must have been a few POWs that didn’t hate him, as they made paint out of toothpowder and painted BOYINGTON HERE on the roof of their POW camp when Allied aircraft started flying over. As for the TV show, Cannell made it all up. Greg justified the BS with, “Anything can happen during the chaos of war. Who’s to say that none of what Stephen writes ever happened? It very well could have.”
The pilots of the Black Sheep were pretty horrified by the inaccuracies, but they understood that entertainment is not always factual history. Thanks for watching.
Thank you. An insightful review of a complicated man during a critical period in History. As you say, probably best to allow each of us to make of him what we will. He certainly fought and lived hard. For my take, I tend to be less harsh on someone who struggles with charater flaws and at least credit him his true successes. Who can truely say they would be better, having never been there. Life is hard, and Pappy's Hard Drinking din't help. The fact he was married 4 times tends to support that he could be very loving, but that his flaws eventually drove others away. Love from a distance is perhaps the best strategy for such people...sadly, because we would all rather just offer love for hard fighting heroes. In the end, he did the best he could to survive and live with himself...what more can we say.
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. The war has been over some 80 years; and none of these Marine Aces and holders of the Medal of Honor have been recognized for their service by the naval service. There is never been a ship named in honor of Marion Carl, Joe Foss or Greg Boyington. Nor has the Marine Corps followed the Air Force practice of naming any of its air stations for distinguished aviators.
I met Greg in Lakeland, Florida many years ago. He signed his first run book for me and we talked for a bit. I still have it and it is near shredded from me reading it many times. I have to admit, he was a bit annoying but regardless he went up against anyone or anything that came before him and survived..in spite of himself. He flew and took chances and risked his life for his country and all of us. My generation has not seen anything like the conflicts that took place during a world war. He earned all that I have heard about just of being in an airplane by himself with zeros on his tail and winning up against them. I personally don't care what he became, he earned the right to be what he wanted to be. He risked all and we should all be grateful for men like him. No one knows what war is actually like until you're there. RIP Greg....good bad or indifferent....brave man, though not perfect. By the way...when I read his book, I hear the voice of Robert Conrad. I LOVED the show and missed it. I AM a pilot and fly jets and helicopters. Nothing like what many men did to protect our freedom. No part of me would prefer to be in an airplane being hunted and potentially killed alone.
Met him at Kissimmee Airport, probably around the same time you did. Didn't;t get a signature, but he signed a painting of a Corsair that still hangs on the wall at the museum at Kissimmee Airport. When I was about 10 years old (in Lakewood Colorado), my friends and I were obsessed with the TV show. We had our die-cast corsairs and everyday on the playground, we reactivated our airbase and flew missions around the playground.
Another one of those bigger than life characters. He may have been a drunk, he may have been an a-hole, but he was one hell of a gutsy pilot! RIP Pappy. I hope you and all of our other fellow Marines who are not alive are in a better place. Almost every guy that fights in combat soon realizes war is a racket and they are just being played. Drinking is just one way of coping. Back then there was no such thing as PTSD.
It was Smedley Butler, the U.S.M.C. General (winner of two Medals Of Honor) who used the phrase "War Is A Racket" for the title of his '30s book which condemned war and the exploitation of the men sent to fight it.
There was such a thing as PTSD, they just didn't have the fancy terminology. WW1 it was shell shock, WW2 it was combat fatigue. It's all the same thing and has been around since humans have been on the planet but it wasn't until the late 70's/early 80's that it became known as PTSD.
Joe Foss and Pappy Boyington will forever remain men of honor to me for their contribution to the war effort. There will never be a another generation of men who sacrificed so much to keep the freedoms we have. God Bless you all.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
At the end of the day what you are describing is a cultural clash. Louis L’amour describes it best in many of his books when he said that the two groups think differently but that doesn’t make either one better or lesser than the other, it’s just one can’t sustain itself and will fade away. It’s faded away but still very much alive.
I remember seeing a clip of Boyington recorded sometime around 1960 where he stated that he had been his own worst enemy because of his drinking. He may have been on the wagon at that point in his life. Judging from comments elsewhere in this thread about encounters with him into the 1980's, it would seem that he never really got a handle on that problem. One of his more interesting quotes was "Show me a hero, and I will prove he is a bum." Boyington was very aware of his character flaws.
Most of the officers and senior NCOs that I would have followed into combat weren't perfect airmen...but they were perfect for the job. I met Boyington in the late 1970s, my landlord was an aircraft mechanic under him in WWII; Boyington was a great person and very friendly. I remember someone saying something like, "Don't get to know your heroes too well, they can be disappointing." Probably true, but we are all human, we all have faults,,
@@patrickmulroney9452 Part of being a marine is fighting as a unit. Having access to food and not smuggling it out is selfish to your starving soldiers.
I bought the DVD of Boyington in AA class after the war. Boyington did recognize he had a drinking problem and in AA, he did talk about his flying days.
My Great Uncle flew & died in the VMFA-215. My great grandmother got a nice letter from his commander (I guess Boyington, IDK) along with his belongings. I looked it up one time, awhile back, to see how he died, but it said that it was still classified.
I had seen the TV show as a kid, but later learned more of the story. While Boynton was "complicated," the rest of the Sheep were good pilots and good guys. I found out that the lone Texan in the group, Donald J. Moore was from my hometown of Amarillo. He attended Amarillo High School, went to the RAF and then to the Marines. Frank Walton, the information officer for the squadron wrote a book in 1986 that had the information about how Moore was lost 28 Dec 1943, considered shot down. I was working with my brother, another pilot and WWII historian, on putting together information for a book on Don, and I corresponded with Frank and a few of the other pilots for a couple of years. I think my brother's widow has the notes for the book, I've not checked. I did most of the interviewing and my brother was going to work on some of the details but we didn't get a chance to put it together. I still would love to get it done. Our little brother was a Marine, he was on the "mop up" of the Beirut Barracks bombing and before that was on the Honor Guard for the president (Reagan) in Washington. The stories he can tell us, which aren't all of them by a long shot, are very cool. And yes, he's another of the Marines with the attitude and sometimes the temper (and PTSD, unfortunately). Thanks for a good video.
When comparing Boyington to Foss there's one other thing to consider. Boyington flew the Corsair. Foss achieved all of his victories in a Wildcat. The Corsair could run circles around a Wildcat. Boyington had a lot more airplane.
True, and Foss at Guadalcanal was always in defensive combat with Marion Carl and the others, no breaks. Read the full interviews with Boyington, Foss and McCampbell in "Above the Pacific" by Colin. His book with European WW II pilots is "Above the Reich", then there are his German interviews in "The German Aces Speak" in two volumes. Thanks for watching
As a 10 year old he signed my book of aviation right above his picture when he wasn't signing anything. I guess he liked I carried my favorite book to the airshow 😊
As a flyer, who wears the proud "Wings of Gold", I knew of his WW II reputation and standing with his fellow aviators. I accepted the fact he was not perfect, (who is?), but that went along with the "daredevil" attitude that gave him the multiple opportunities to earn his storied aviation accomplishments. I had the good fortune to meet him at an airshow. It was early morning, he was seriously hung over, but graciously signed my book, and over coffee, we proceeded to have a conversation about some of the high points in his book. This Naval Aviator counts that meeting as a very memorable career moment. Thank you Sir, for your service.
Boyington had his flaws but we still consider him a hero. Thanks for watching.
My father was a USAF fighter pilot, Major Boyington was among his most revered aviation heroes.
I saw his Pilots license #15 of all licenses issues in aviation. Pappy was flying when the airplane was just invented. He was like a Chuck Yaeger of the aviation home brew computing club, king of barnstorming before it was invented, pushing the outside edge of the envelope when people didn't know what that edge or an envelope was, creating the science of 5he aerial dogfight from scratch. Boyington should've been made a four star general of the Army Air Force or a Marine Aviation Wing of the USMC. His contribution to aviation history is that important. As for drinking, all I can say is he lacked cowardice before he hit the bottle and was able to fly anyway. People invent rules because they lack courage and conviction and like to couch potato quarterback the game of much greater men.
If people can't see Pappy Boyington was a co-inventor and developer of the science and art of the aerial dog fight, they're just useless wretches who are crazy Communists. Even the Russians appreciate 2hobPappy Boyington is. How come Americans don't?
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL
Another good video might be one on the assassination theories surrounding Patton. GREAT EPISODE, glad I found this wonderful channel.
Sounds like an extreme asshole. Living it up as a POW while the others starve tells me the true character of the man. Thousands of men were, and are, good pilots, and many men loved their commanders or pilots in a bomber crew. None of that is extraordinary. To get the cushy position as a POW and gain weight means he probably gave the Japanese something they wanted. Not perfect? Boyington sounds like a selfish prick.
Boyington was my childhood hero. I was raised by my grandfather, who was a pilot, so as a boy in the 70s Black Sheep Squadron was a must watch and Conrad’s portrayal of Boyington easily turned him into a character worthy of hero worship. To my good fortune I met Pappy in 1977 when I was 9. He appeared at an airshow at our airport where my grandfather kept his Cessna. I remember how nice Pappy was to me, answering my questions, posing for a Polaroid with me, which he signed along with the book and lithograph my grandfather bought for me from Boyington. The best part was when I asked Pappy if Mike Kawato, who was also appearing at the airshow, really shot him down. Pappy looked at me and said “He’s full of $#!+. He’s not the guy who shot me down!” and basically explained that he’d been humoring Kawato all along about his claim... which to my understanding time has proved Pappy right. I’ll just say this about Boyington now that I’m an adult. As I’ve learned, he wasn’t a perfect man, but neither am I. I still admire him as an adult, now for showing me a flawed individual is still capable of accomplishing great things in their lifetime, and that people can be complicated. While his flaws and mine are distinctly different, he reminds me that I’m still capable of making great accomplishments for the greater good regardless of how other see me. Plus he left a great impression on this, a then 9 year old kid. I say Pappy was a Hero.
Awesome. Thanks for sharing your story and insight
Nary a truer statement!
This is the way.
Thanks for sharing, Sir! Real life events often show there is more to people than their reputation. Yours and others' stories seem to me to support that at heart, he was a genuinely personable guy, when not drunk, and I think that is a truth about the man that jives with his hard won accomplishments in battle - he did care about others, but struggled with his own demons. As you say, don't we all to some degree. I think we can say he came from humble roots and did his best in a world that grew many fold in size and complexity with his living. He didn't always succeed, but he sure fought hard and with passion to try. It's clear that on several occaisions when others told him he could NOT do things, he found a way to DO them anyways! I recently purchased his book. I look forward to learning more about this complicated and colorful WWII fighter pilot. I also grew up watching the 1970's TV Show. I think that helped form my interest in Flying Fighters of all Eras. Best Wishes to You!
One of my favorite heroes just from reading his book,
Great to hear from someone who really experienced him, thank you!
As a young Marine in 1977, I was assigned to work at El Toro MCAS in the base commissary, Pappy would come there to shop like many retired military at the time. I was able to personally meet and talk to him, however, I cannot remember any of the small talk except for one thing, him teasing me about my great duty. LOL!
I did not see him as a hero, I saw him as a real human. he was in civilian clothes and was down to earth. as were all of the retired military folks who shop at the commissary. to me, meeting him was just like meeting anyone and I believe that he was a great Marine and I am thankful that I got to meet him. Semper Fi
Awesome story. Semper Fi
Great story! I'm sure you met many other supermen in their civilian clothing :)
I met Colonel Boyington several times at the Reno Air Races. He had a booth there selling books and other swag related to his career. He was somewhat aloof around other pilots but would engage in conversation and I found him to be a nice guy. I knew he was a partier and drank but I'm pretty sure he was sober at Reno. Interesting to note that more than a few 'famous' pilots were known to be abrasive and confrontational. Chuck Yeager comes to mind. He was not the nicest guy at the party and he snubbed me several times when I welcomed him aboard my aircraft, giving him a ride back to Sacramento from Burbank.
Thanks for sharing
Chuck Yeager was way more controversial than Babbington,but his fame kind of eclipsed that
Chuck Yeager is notorious for being an a$$-ho$e and a prima donna.
Also Steve Ritchie comes to mind.
Boyinton and Patton both were good examples of men who should be kept in glass cases with a hammer marked "Break Glass in Case of War".
Exactly kinda like Stallone in demolition man. "Send a maniac to catch one" 👍🏻
@Lucky Strike Your mileage "as always" may vary!
Nice like it
I saw HEARTBREAK RIDGE too
Go earn the Medal of Honor and I’ll entertain your opinion, until then, be grateful. He never had anything handed to him, and suffered in a POW camp a long time.
Thank you for this video on Greg "Pappy" Boyington WWII pilot. My Father was also a Marine in the Pacific and was a mechanic with Boyington. Dad never told us much of what he did there but was proud of his service during the Pacific war. He was a changed man when he left the service according to his sister. I know that war can cause men to do things they would not normally do. Some are better and many are worse. I have always wondered how a boy/man in their teens and early 20's could do some of the incredible things that they were called upon to do . I am sure it changed them. We as a nation have much to thank our military for. WWII had many very brave men and women that sacrificed to keep America going.
Agreed. Thanks for watching.
After over 20 years of service to my nation I can tell you not much turned out as expected but at the end of the day we got the job done. Regards to you and those you support and love.
@@mickbrand6486🫡
Redfire122: as a Marine I can tell you that many of us are and have been complicated creatures. We’re enthusiastic about our mission which is to close with contact and destroy the enemy, but we also aren’t all altar boys. With Boyington, he wasn’t any more belligerent than some Marines I’ve known,. But where he drew the ire of his brethren was his book on the 214. When the series came around he was willing to aid poetic license with more drama about the “misfits and screwballs” issue. This created blowback from his old unit. As far as Boyington being combat-ineffective due to drunkenness, I’d say this is likely not too accurate. It’s well known that he would always fly the Corsair with the most problems on any mission-sparing his men from potential complications. That’s leadership and bravery
Semper Fi
Along the same lines of “You need me on that line” from “A Few Good Men”
The Corsair was the best fighter of the war by far. One even shot down a Mig-15 during the Korean War.
That's a real Marine Chesty Puller wouldn't let his men pull point in the Korean War because they didn't know what the hell they were doing. These kids they got coming out of boot camp-fresh out of diapers! I would never be an old man and tell someone to take point, that's insanity. They don't practice musket rifle and bayonet drills like they did in the Civil War. They run clicks instead of miles. Really, what is a click? Godless French heathenism. But that thing, the kids fresh off their Mama's tatas, that haunts you. I know what Pappy thought and what General Puller thought, they had to take the crappiest detail, they were there when it was 8nvented, and their leadership by example taught the younger generation.
These kids are too young we're sending to war. You need old men with shitty attitudes killing the enemy and leading the way. Leading by example and hopefully it's a good one. But I would never let a kid who's hardly out of grade school take the shitty detail because he doesn't know what's going on. They're not the squad leader's sons, but they are somebody else's and that's the problem. Pappy had been flying since the airplane was invented. The media always hates a hero because hard work and self sacrifice and leadership mean nothing to them. That only raises respect for him that he took the shitty airplane. Something you don't hear very often!
I like the story, or legend, of him of choosing new or worst pilot in his sqd. to be his wingman. This jives with another story of another officer, an F-4(Cor D), a USAF Colonel, of choosing the newest or worst WSO in sqd. to be his WSO.
Another great snippet of forgotten history... thank you sir!
Thanks for watching
To those implying this video is a kind of hit job on a national hero, I have good reason to believe it is an accurate presentation. My dad flew Corsairs, and was awarded the DFC for his actions over Rabaul. He rarely talked about the war, but he did say that he, and all the other pilots he knew detested Boyington, for all the reasons so well explained in the video. It is possible to do valuable, and sometimes heroic, service to your country and at the same time be a top-class jerk.
Thanks for watching, we appreciate it. Colin does not do hit pieces, he just gives out facts. Others must decide. Thanks for watching
Thank you for providing excellent content!
My father was the CO of VMF 215, knew Boyington well and said of him, to me, “He was an asshole.”
🫡
True story: I worked with a guy who is originally from Fresno, CA and he was a school kid when "Baa, Baa, Blacksheep" first aired on television. He once told me a story of looking up Gregory Boyington in the local Fresno phone book and calling the number. To his boyhood surprise, the line picked up and he was speaking directly to Pappy Boyington. My co-worker could barely get the words out but was able to ask Pappy Boyington how true and realistic the story lines in the TV series were. He was met with something like, "Kid, do you know what 'dramatization' means? Look it up!" My co-worker also related Mr. Boyington was well known by the local police for creating trouble in the Fresno bars. He was known to be a very mean drunk.
What is often not mentioned in stories about Pappy Boyington is his educational and collegiate background. He earned an aeronautical engineering degree from University of Washington, attending that school under ROTC while also participating in the wrestling and swim teams. So, for all his faults, Boyington was no dummy.
Awesome. Thanks for sharing
The top three easiest degrees are: a) Psychology, b) Sociology, and c) Communications. It's a wonder that any of those three degrees are acceptable to the Military for entry into Pilot School. 😒
@@jamesburns2232 While stationed at El Toro, I worked with a Major who's degree was "Physical Education". He was a nice guy and made light of his degree allowing him to fly 65 million dollar FA-18s.
The guys from the squadron that I corresponded with for a book (yet unpublished) were not happy with the way the squadron was portrayed in that show. I was a kid when it was on and loved it (I was also a Wild Wild West fan so....). I have managed to compartmentalize the two stories, one of the real guys who put their butts on the line for their country and the actors who were reading scripts and playing at being pilots. It's the way to stay sane. And, for what it's worth, the Marines don't keep dummies too long, they look for the guys who are a bit on the "character" side and who can be built up to be Marines. I'm the big sister of one, and he's a character, believe me, so I know. :)
@@charlayned - The Marines would rather have a Kubrick "Full Metal Jacket" weekly TV series realistic. Sorry, this is like saying the Mash units hated Mash for not being realistic and making it entertaining instead. Wake up! It's Hollywood for entertainment. They added sexy nurses who never existed - oh my for love stories?!
You would be hard pressed to find a more controversial man. Both loved and hated at the same time. The one thing that sticks in my craw is his failure to help his fellow POWs. But the fact remains he is a true American hero that the Japanese feared when he was airborne. As always , great show Mike. Enjoyed.
Thanks for watching
Another M.o.H. winner was also an a***h*le (allegedly, despite his truly- commendable single-handed fire-fighting and gunnery exploits): Maynard "Snuffy" Smith, who saved a B-17 over Europe .He was said by some Army Air Corps colleagues to have been "a real f***-up" as a person.
Not helping fellow POWs? My bet is that his face features made him look not American so he could be treated different. At the time there was a lot of racism in both ways and Japanese under Kwantung army rulung would not go easy on those helping enemies, even if POWs.
So I see it as a survival strategy. In the Japanese side he could not afford to have enemies while being POW.
@@aquarius5719 listening to some of his fellow POWS they insinuating he could have done so to save their lives without being caught. I don't know .
I wasn't there,
they were . As a veteran I can tell you if I were there I would have done so.
Well said. As despised as the fellow POW issue made him, who can truely fault somone for surviving deadly situation, by not having the "courage" to risk it. I'd say that's a question most of us are VERY FORTUNATE not to have to make, OR KNOW ahead of time exactly what we would do. Also, No one knows what the situation really was. Maybe he actually cared for someone who was helping him? If so, it would have been in keeping with his character not to put them at risk. As most everyone commenting on this video has expressed, judgement is a tricky thing- let him who has not sinned throw the first stone... I tend to have compassion for the good the man clearly did, and that he frequently would talk personably to complete strangers, and did not think "too highly" of his own person, such that he didn't care or have compassion for his fellow man. To me, that is one of the best qualities on man can have for another.
I grew up watching "Black Sheep Squadron", and I was in the Marines when he passed. I served with many Marines who had belligerent attitudes and sometimes I wished bad things for them, but when shit hits the fan, these are the Marines you want by your side. Even Chesty Puller quoted, "Take me to the brig, so I can see the 'real Marines'".
Thanks for watching.
BINGO! Semper Fi.
If Puller actually said that he was a damn fool. He was a general, you know, in command of men of which following orders is literally the #1,2,3,4,5...priorities. Yes, those assholes may be able to fight well, but they are always stupid and impetuous so they typically die very quickly, and take several of their own with them. Boyington was a gifted flyer without a doubt, but he was still a grade-A asshole. Killing other humans in war does not negate being a horrible human being.
@@tedwojtasik8781 the USMC prior to the mid 80’s was a totally different organization than what we know today. Chesty led the same whether peace time or war. He was a natural leader and envied deeply by his peers. One of his SGTMJs was a close friend of mine. Like his cousin Gen Patton he had the ability to spark ⚡️ fires within people, oftentimes in a unorthodox manner.
@@tonylittle8634 I was in the USMC from 86'-90', I think I know USMC history. BTW, my hero, the REAL hero is, was, and shall ever be Gen. Smedley Butler, the greatest soldier to ever live, hands down.
Our Marine unit once invited Col. Boyington to be at our guest at the upcoming Marine Corps Birthday Ball, but he said he was on "the Wagon", (again), and didn't want to take the chance of being around an open bar. That was a few years before his death, and I believe he was living in Fresno at the time. I don't know if he "fell of the Wagon" again, but we all respected him for his effort. John Barleycorn is a hard guy to beat.
Mar-Det CVN-70
@@stevesmoke7277; now, that is one big ship. I got lost on the little USS Tarawa (LHA-1). I don't know how you manage on a ship three times larger.
As a young boy, I attended an air show in Vancouver, WA. It was there I got to meet Col. Boyington. We spoke a few kind words to each other and he signed my paperback copy of Baa Baa Black Sheep. He told me he was grateful that I purchased his book, hoped I'd enjoyed it and I told him it was a privilege to meet him and that it was a good book. I wish I'd gotten a picture with him. The memory lives only in my mind today and I'm reminded of it when I see that battered paperback in my book collection. Thank you for not forgetting his history!
Great story. Thanks for watching
I had the honor, as a teenager, to sit and talk with the Japanese pilot who shot Pappy down and made him a POW at the Wings Over Houston Airshow in the late eighties. It was the end of the day and the crowd was thinning. There was no one at his booth and he sat and talked to me one on one for ten to fifteen minutes. He discussed the dogfight with Boyington with all the hand gestures one would expect. It was an awesome experience that I have thought back in often over the years.
Awesome. Thanks for watching
That Japanese pilot was a fake. He did not shoot Boyington down.
My brother was at that airshow! He was with the reenactors and got a chance to talk to the pilot as well. It was one of his favorite memories. As he said, "The war is over, it is time to put this to rest."
The Japanese pilot had no proof he shot down Boyington.
@@stevetobe4494 Other than Boyington being a prisoner of war, huh? LOL. More power to you, my friend.
Very informative video. I grew up loving Baa Baa Black sheep. I feel now I have the rest of the story. How can a man be a 100% hero and 100% something else?
No one is perfect. Thanks for watching.
our canadian hero billy bishop ww1 72 kills was an alcoholic ..i knew people who confirmed this ...alcohol ocupational hazard!
He is human.
Back in the late summer of 1981 Boyington was a guest of honor at an International Plastic Modelers' Society regional contest in Atlanta.
A good friend of mine, an Atlanta police officer, was in charge of security for the event, which also featured a display of AVG items. My friend stated that his main job was keeping Boyington sober enough so he could make his speech the next day...
Awesome
Hope he put in for overtime!!
@@williammitchell4417 Ray did it for free. He is now the longest serving member of the club!
Well we al have something going on.
This was war. A quote comes to mind from the movie, 'Big Jake': "It is I think going to be a very harsh and unpleasant kind of business and will I think require an extremely harsh and unpleasant kind of man." The journey from civil society to warrior is possible, the transition back is what's difficult. Men in general were different then, too. Recently I had to restrain an 85+ year old veteran from trying to take on somebody who told him to sit down.
Thanks for watching
Great work Colin 💜 Mr Boyington was a quandary! I served with a few characters just like him!! Always a few in every group! Till the next time!!🫡
Thanks for watching as always.
Thank you for another fantastic production!
One of the Black Sheep Pilots visited my grade school in 1977. He told us some stories of the war and Pappy. He never said anything bad about him. The 4th 5th and 6th grade classes were given Pappy's Address in Fresno, California.. Many of us boys wrote letters. He answered a few and sent Everyone an Autographed picture of him sitting on the wing of his F4U-1 Corsair.. I still have it.. I have never heard any of these stories about his character.. when none of them are alive to respond
The stories were well known, just ignored by end large. Thanks for watching.
There are plenty of stories around Fresno County about Boyington
As a Member of the Black sheep it was probably best to gloss over people's faults. There is little reason to make others look bad. Bvt major general Custer is another such hero, controversial in his own day but the documents show a checkered history.
To me all the controversy seems related to gossip conducted by his enemies on US side, backed by his lack of charm when drunk.
@@D60433 - Oh and don't mention famous angry A-hole snowflakes in tennis - Conners and McEnroe and that was on the court! I'll take a flawed warrior willing to really fight anyone, any time and any day. That's why Pappy called himself a bum at times.
Wow, what a great show. I used to watch when I was a little kid in the 70's. So well done, like a movie.
I met 12:48 “Pappy” in the early eighty’s at an air show. He was a polite man who autographed his second book for me.
Thanks for watching
Your video plus other information I have gathered over the years about "Pappy" shows a very tragic parallel to George Custer. They both were national heros, they both had more detractors than promoters, were both great leaders of men, fearless to a fault and horrible family men. And both of them had tragic ends of completely different proportions. While George Custer lost his life at little big horn in the prime of his career, it took many years for the truth to come out about him. Where Major Boyington was able to live out his life and his reputation hit a downward slide from the time he got back from the war until his death. Tragic.
Thanks for watching.
That is an interesting comparison of two flawed fighters and one I never thought of. Great insight!
Like a lot of kid I grew up watching baba black sheep and grew up idolizing Pappy Boyington. But during time I also found a love for WWII history, especially the South Pacific. And I read some of the other books that mention Pappy and got a fuller picture of who he was. And honestly in my eyes it didn't make him any less of a hero oh, just a flawed when like so many are. And honestly it sometimes takes men like him that are complete f****** in life, that end up shining in combat.
Irregardless of his misdeeds, it took courage to get up there and do what he did and you can never take that away from him. You just have to remember he was flawed like all of us
Thanks for watching
Excellent job as always, Dr Heaton!
Real, actual history is frequently tainted with all sorts of bad, even evil things in combination with great, honorable things. And both need to be known.
Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
We cannot learn from the past as history without the truth.
Once again, thank you.
Bravo!
Rest in peace, Greg Boyington. Semper Fidelis. Via con Dios!
Thanks for watching, we tried to be fair and balanced.
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL, you succeed!
Thank you and please keep it coming.
Thank you for the video. I met Boyington twice as a kid. He was kind and friendly on both occasions. As an adult, I found out that one of my neighbors went to the UW with Hallenbeck/Boyington. He felt that drinking in the Corps changed Greg a great deal. He wasn't the same when he came back from Pensacola and Burma. He also said that Greg was absolutely tenacious at getting reinstated into the USMC. Obviously Greg Boyington was flawed, but I believe most of us are in one aspect or another.
Thanks for watching.
Pappy Boyington is one of the greatest examples of the adage, “the right man, at the right place, at the right time.”
For all of his flaws, he brilliantly and bravely led one of the most effective fighter squadrons in the Pacific theater.
For that alone, he will always be a hero to me.
Thanks for watching
Thanks for this video Sir. I share it often, it's full of great quotes from Boyington and other airmen. Very entertaining and also educational.
Much appreciated
Thanks for telling the unvarnished truth about Greg Boyington, the Ty Cobb of American WWII fighter pilots. I read Boyington's autobiography in college while the TV series was airing its first season. It is an entertaining book in which he freely admits to being combative and an alcoholic, but there is much he whitewashes. It wasn't until several decades later that I learned some darker facts about him which even this video did not touch on. To say he was a self-serving SOB is an understatement and perhaps this sentiment is best summarized by the last line in his biography. As I recall, it was "Show me a hero and I'll show you a bum." This idea certainly applied to Pappy, but I'll be damned if it ever applied to men such as Joe Foss, Jim Howard, and Tex Hill.
Great observations, Colin knew and interviewed them all. Thanks for watching.
Why do you think the core doesn't correct the error and let the record reflect that Col. Foss has the most kills?
@@jamesdeen3011 I can only make an uneducated guess. I suspect that for many years after the War the senior USMC and Navy leadership were trying to protect the reputation of the Corps and by extension, maintain high American trust in the organization. Today it may have more to do with bureaucratic inertia and indifference, or a desire not to besmirch the reputations of those senior officers and Navy Department civilians who covered up Boyington's many misdeeds. If a historian wants to deconstruct a war hero, he can do so with the information currently available, but don't expect the Department of Defense to assist. It does not benefit the organization to acknowledge the skeletons in the closets of famous WWII leaders such as MacArthur, Patton, Eisenhower, or Mark Clark (well, maybe Clark could be exposed with minimal damage).
@@Paladin1873 lol,I would venture to say Gen Clark could be outed with no damage. As for your answer to my question it makes sense, never shoot inside the same tent. I still think I still think it is an injustice to Col. Foss.
@@jamesdeen3011 It is, but I believe Joe Foss was a man of great character who would not have been too off-put by the slight if it was perceived to have been done for the good of the Corps. From a purely pragmatic perspective, not being fully recognized for your accomplishments is a minor annoyance when you consider how many men never came home or returned with shattered bodies and psyches.
Much respect to the creator of this video. I had to replay the segment where you casually mention interviewing Boyington in the 80s.
Boyington came it with my favorite and daily quote I truly belief, "You show me a hero and I will show you a bum!" How true and how much it applies to a lot of people.
Thanks for watching
My Dad actually knew Pappy …. He described him as a rascal….and one of the bravest men he knew…
Awesome. Thanks for sharing
He was a drunk. Horrible father. His son joined the usaf because he knew Greg would be pissed.
It’s always easy for people who didn’t go into the war zone to talk dirt about those who served.
I met Robert Bruce Porter in the late 80's when I was a kid. He was a night fighter ace in WW2. He said he gave Pappy a place to live for his last years before passing away. Interesting stories that I'm sure were softened for my young ears.
I got to meet Pappy at the Oshkosh Airshow in 1980, he autographed my copy of his autobiography. Also got an autographed picture from the Japanese pilot who shot him down, they were friends and camped together at the Airshow. Years later I asked Tex Hill and RT Smith about Pappy" s time with the Flying Tigers and they said that "it was tough to get kicked out of the Tigers....and Pappy was the only one to do it. "
Thanks for sharing
Thanks!
Welcome! Thanks for the donation and your support.
My dad was a mechanic in VMF216, on Guam and Efate, and definitely ambivalent toward Baa Baa Black Sheep, when it was popular.
Hero
Thank you for letting us decide our own views on Boyington. I currently live five miles from Pappy Boyington field in Hayden Idaho, that's just north of Coeur d' Alene Idaho. I go to the American legion down the street from me and they have lots of pictures and history about Boyington on their walls. It's nice to hear another perspective on this WWII hero/villain. He was a man of the greatest generation and part of WWII, for that alone he is and always be a hero to me.
And he should be considered a hero. We did not target him for denigration, but to be honest to the history you must provide all views and evidence to be examined. Thanks for watching.
"You show me a hero and I'll show you a Bum!" - Gregory "Pappy' Boyington
Thanks for watching.
Seems like he was really self aware😂
Touche' (smile)
Thanks for sharing your videos and keep them coming please.
Thanks for watching
Boyington was a hero, with feet of clay. Most people do. His biggest failing was John Barleycorn. I met him at an airshow, he was was very very nice and kind to me.
Thanks for watching
My father trained with Boyington at San Diego, the stories he relayed to me were pretty much in line with the comments and this presentation.
Wow, thanks for the great insight. It's pretty obvious that alcohol rarely enhances a person's character but it's pretty tough to fault anyone for drinking it when they're putting their lives on the line all the time.
He was mostly faulted for not helping his fellow POWs. Thanks for watching
I was so fortunate to speak briefly with him on the phone in late 1987 . He sold me 2 books he wrote and signed them. I still have them tucked away. I still think he was the best USMC flyer in his day.
He was a good pilot no doubt. Thanks for watching.
Every unit in the military has a pappy. Just like every unit has wise guy. It’s how you utilize them that matters.
Very true
also medal of honor and the navy cross
That only matters in wartime. They are shunned in garrison.
Plus. To quote, show me a hero ill show you a chump.
@@icebluecuda1
Yep, as the old saying in the Army goes "Wartime hero, peacetime f$%k up".
@@dukecraig2402 we had a saying in the army PX Warriors 🫡
Wartime hero IMHO. I also met him at an airshow in 76 or 77 and he signed my copy of his biography. Still have it to this day and it's a cherished possession.
Former Marine and Army myself. Love history and love your channel. A lot of the WW2 folks were lionized. You have to be suspicious of “Spotlight Rangers.”
Thank you kindly. Semper Fi
“Above the Pacific” just arrived and I’m really enjoying the read, Mr Heaton. I’ve read Boyington’s book and two written by Bruce Gamble, so I’m familiar with “Pappy’s” story, but reading his story as told in your interviews is fascinating.
I can’t wait to read the Foss interview; I’m portraying Foss as an aviation re-enactor, and I’ve really enjoyed telling his story as I learn more about him.
Thank you for what you do.
We appreciate it very much. Colin's book series "The German Aces Speak 1 & 2" has the German perspective on the war. Thanks for watching.
He’s a survivor and unfortunately with that trait a lot of good but a hell of a lot more bad can come with it.
Like my childhood best friend said after he was done with his service in the USMC. You will meet some of the best friends you will have ever in life, and some of your worst enemies. In the end we all suffer from the human condition.
Very true. Thanks for watching.
Well said.
Yes, we all have our demons, just some are bigger than others.
As an Army Airborne vet and former commercial pilot, I grew up loving both the military and aviation. My childhood heros were Gen. Patton, Pappy Boyington, Audie Murphy and my uncle, USAAF B24 pilot/retired USAF/SAC Commander Clinton Weissenbach (order not relevant). I modeled myself after these men (the parts that were presented to the public eye) in Military School, in the Army and in aviation. We need heroes, we need roll models. Sometimes it is better if only see the perceived persona and not the personal, perhaps darker, sides of our heroes and model ourselves after that conception.
In Areonautical College, when all my much younger classmates and instructors began calling me "Pappy" (both because of my age and my admiration for Boyington) I wore that nickname like a badge of honor, and still do to this day.
Awesome. Thank you for sharing and for your service
I read Bruce Gambles book about the life of Greg "Pappy" Boyington, more than once, several years ago. I found it riveting. I gave it to a friend and he tells me he thoroughly enjoyed it. I must say Sir, with no disrespect intended, that you almost completely focused on his bad deeds while nearly omitting the many heroic feats he achieved. I'm well aware that he claimed 3 kills in the AVG more than he actually shot down. He did destroy them though,albeit on the ground. Even so, after Pearl Harbor and especially Wake Island and Midway, U.S. forces hardly had any pilots that had shot down 3-4 enemy planes. He went to Burma because he was desperate to make money. It's true he and Claire Chenault despised one another. But Claire was not right about everything. After quitting and making it back to the States, it all might have ended there but for his persistence in hounding the Corp. to commission him. The ONLY reason they allowed him back was because of his experience, of which so few had. In his first mission over the Solomons, with many Marine Corp pilots as witnesses, he shot down 5 (five) enemy fighters in one 360 degree turn. I hate the fact that he was an alcoholic. I can't defend him there. He had many faults. We all do. I'm sorry Joe Foss did not receive the accolades he richly deserved. But my word man, with a World War on I wish you would focus your energy on exposing the real villains who are destroying this nation and stop trying to discredit one of our flawed hero's....God bless
Just pointing out Boyington's flaws as stated by those who knew him, but we also gave him credit. Thanks for watching.
Strongly disagree.
One of the biggest problems we face today is unabashed charismatic hero and flag worship. The generations brainwashed with propaganda like “George Washington could not tell a lie” and raised on essentially a fictionalized version of American history sadly miss out. American history is even more fascinating warts and all.
The reality is that some humans don’t fit well into peacetime (see “Patton, George S, Jr”) and don’t fit the mold of a 1930s German propaganda poster. Which, by the way, is essentially the same playbook used for American history through the 1980s complete with compulsory flag worship to The Motherland and hero worship indoctrination.
These people may not be very nice or very good and are flawed, that doesn’t mean they can’t love their country or be heroic.
I’d argue against you that discussing the reality of someone like Boyington not only doesn’t tear him down, it highlights his accomplishments even more.
I grew up in a small town with an older Medal of Honor winner, and I have to tell you, he was nutty as a fruitcake and honestly a real ass at times. Not a nice man. That still doesn’t take away the amazing heroism he displayed and in fact showed that he was capable of caring to a degree he didn’t display often in real life.
And stop with the paranoid nonsense at the end. Just … stop.
I found Gamble's book not light reading and in the main part very, very sad.
Shows how alcoholism can destroy you.
Drinking is the Native American curse! 😿
@@lsdzheeusi when that thing must stop, then I will say straight up the words, you shall get stopped by others as well. you just like'em, even so different But it's no difference like making nonsense. so yeah, I think nothing but you deserved to get stopped as well.
Boyington sounds like a A-class pilot to have on your side but I wouldn’t want to be friends with him. BTW you should do a show on Frank Luke, the first airman to win the Medal of Honour after an absolutely badass last stand.
Great idea. We need some more WWI content
Flying is not inherently dangerous but: very unforgiving for simply mistakes: where do you get men like that?
And
How do you return them to human after? 🙏
@@Eric_D_Blair Great question
frank luke good example!
Frank Luke was also quite a charecter,his last stand is very controversial and most likely fake
I love all the content!!
Thanks for watching.
I got the pleasure of meeting the real Pappy Boyington at an air show in Red Bluff ca back in 1984 he was a very kind man and he even autographed his book Baa Baa Black Sheep for me I still have it to this day
Well, like General Patton, Boyington was here when we needed him I guess. Nobody is perfect.
True. Thanks for watching.
Thank you. Very interesting show.
Thanks for watching
If some (especially critics) have not read his book then they need to do so. In his memoir -especially his years as an abused POW in Japan- he paints a sober picture of the war he experienced and how it affected him from the moment he parachuted down. In my opinion, he paints a broad argument that is really anti-war in its essence. It is not a pro-war scree as I first expected. One can only have more respect for him and his arguments about not waging all out war as one of humanity’s highest moments. I enjoyed his story much more than biographies about “Chesty” Puller or McArthur.
Thanks for watching
He was a man of his day. Drinking was not frowned upon as much, in fact it was encouraged. He was a man of heroic acts of Valor, along with all the trimmings of narcissism... Narcissism is a mental disorder, not something you can control. And quite frankly, it is a dangerous mental disorder, very dangerous.
Thanks for watching
Oh yeah I have known clinically diagnosed Narcissistic people and that's true,they can be really good as an individual but the narcissism doesn't go.ever.
"Just name a hero and I'll prove he's a bum"
-Col. Gregory Boyington, USMC, Ret.
That's the last line in his "Baa Baa Black Sheep" book.
Thanks for watching
Touche' (smile)
The Black sheep squadron and pappy Boynton one of my favorite stories world war II. I watched the show as a kid. Black sheep squadron. Learned a lot from that. Ruffians that flew like the devil s
Thanks for watching.
There are two books written by Bruce Gamble that I recommend reading if you can find them in print. 'The Black Sheep: The Definitive Account of Marine Fighting Squadron 214 in World War II' and 'Black Sheep One: The Life of Gregory "Pappy" Boyington'. Their both very good reads on the men of the 214 and Gregory Boyington.
The book on Boyington is not a fun book to read nor light reading. It is more sad than anything else.
@@alantoon5708
Thanks for the warning, I get enough of that in real life.
@@alantoon5708 Even Greg's book "Baa Baa Blacksheep" was a mess to read.
Own all 3. Great recommendations.
Black Sheep One was excellent.
Thank You Mr Heaton, Interesting Video. subbed. 🇺🇸
Thanks for watching. Welcome aboard.
I loved watching black sheep 🐑 squadron every Sunday afternoon 👍💯👍as well as the old star trek old Sinbad movies and 👍
Thanks for watching.
Nicely done! Thx!
Thanks for watching
He was a drunk, a trouble maker and a braggart but even with all his faults I have never heard a single person say they didn't want Pappy on their side in a fight!
Thanks for watching
I think they said the same things about Grant, but he was the only General Lincoln had who knew how to fight.
@@johnharris6655 Today Grant would be a war criminal!
@living-wellon-less5669 so would most of the generals and unit commanders on both sides.
He’s a rat who let fellow countryman starve
Got to meet Greg (Pappy) Boyington in 1982 at Naval Air Station Dallas while with VMAF-112 The Cowboy Squadron a Marine Reserve Unit when he flew in and parked his Corsair with the the F-4J Phantom's unit for an airshow. It was an honor to get to talk with him. He was going to some minor work done across the runway at rhe LTV Corp. Then so he came in about a week early so it could be done.
Awesome. Thanks for watching
A coworker of mine flew Corsairs in WW2 and Korea. He intensely disliked Boyington more than the Japanese because Boyington had refused to help a pilot from another group who was under attack, resulting in that pilot getting shot down and killed.
It was not the only time apparently. Thanks for watching.
Damn - Maverick, when are you going to stick with your wingman?! - Top Gun.
Excellent & interesting. Most of this I didn't know. Thank You
Thanks for watching
I flew twenty years in the USMC in helicopters and tactical jets. You might be surprised at the level of animosity that can exist between fellow aviators in the same unit and even more so for the guys down the street. It's extremely competitive and professional jealousy is rather commonplace. As well, there are teetotalers serving side by side with drunkards and that can cause problems. Most of what you present sounds like sour grapes, jealousy and personality differences from those critical of Boyington. I read his book and have a pretty good idea of who he was because I knew many like him although his more noteworthy antics would have gotten him thrown out quick in my era flying beginning in the 80s. If his MOH reads 28 kills that's good enough for me. No matter the true story his book and the hit TV series must have really grated on some of these fellows.
The Black Sheep were a little more forgiving of Boyington and even the show than were the AVG pilots. and POWs. Thanks for watching.
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL I'd like to see you do something on Admiral Rickover, the father of the nuclear Navy. He and Boyington share some parallels. Rickover wasn't much liked in the Navy and was on his way to an unremarkable career. Then he was sent to a post war conference meant to evaluate peaceful uses of nuclear fission. He immediately saw that nuclear power could revolutionize submarine propulsion. Through his grit, powers of organization and engineering genius he headed up the development of nuclear power. The USS Nautilus sailed in about a decade after this organizational meeting. You probably know that he headed up Navy nuclear power for the next twenty years or so. What you might not know is that the Navy kept trying to retire him. He still wasn't liked by Navy leadership. Congress intervened to keep him and promote him. I think he eventually made Vice Admiral. It's all in the biography Rickover: Controversy and Genius. Thanks for your work on Boyington. These heroes need to be remembered.
Being a USN Aviation Maintenance Officer, former enlisted. You so accurately stated "It's extremely competitive and professional jealousy is rather commonplace. As well, there are teetotalers serving side by side with drunkards and that can cause problems. " That is spot on. As is "Most of what you present sounds like sour grapes, jealousy and personality differences ". Hard chargers, get er done guys always rub the PC the wrong way.... and your reputation will suffer for it. Even more so now in the New Navy. What is forgotten is although you may be brash - seemingly a mean asshole - is that you got the mission done, you trained others, and put the aircraft in the air to go across the beach. There is alot more to it than that from a ground pounder prospective..... LCDR LDO, USN Ret. 1974 - 2004.
@@DaveChristopherson Semper Fi, Dave...I think I would have liked to have flown with Boyington. His kind was nearly extinct by the 90s and I think to our detriment. Things change. The real warriors need to blaze the trail for the future. You beat me by ten years. I was active 1984-2004.
I knew and had read about pappy ,I even still watch the show when it comes on tv. A lot of my favorite tv actors on that show. The story about the prison camp apparently has elluded me all of these years. Yes he was definitely a scrapper , never did know why he received the MOH but he did. It's like finding out that babe Ruth wasn't a top notch athlete.
He had his flaws, more than most, but he should still be regarded as a hero who served his country. Thanks for watching.
he received the navy cross
While he may not be considered a hero by other heroes, he certainly should be viewed as one by civilians.
Agreed. Thanks for watching.
i read chennault book of the flying tigers and he speaks highly of papa boyington
Having spoken at length with my Dad, who was a POW more than once, he said there were so many that became pricks when it even slightly appeared that someone wasn't suffering as much as they did.
Also, anyone that wotked around food had it great by comparison as they could sneak a bite of food every now and again but could never take any. They were hared by the jealous and envious. My Dad had no ill will toward them and neither did his friends. They knew the score and a person would have to be a fool not to take that bite whenever and wherever they could, and without being beaten to deformity or even shot for stealing that food.
My Dad was in WW2, Korea and Vietnam.
Most of him came home in 1973. We (Mom and I @ age 9) picked him up at the airport where he was spit at and yelled at upon exiting the building.
What a welcome.
He drank himself nearly to death until 1982. He put himself in the hospital to quit drinking and get help.
He went on to be an editor if the local newspaper and then 10 tears as the VA rep and helped hundred of vets get the help and respect they deserved.
Command Sargeant Major
Retired.
R.I.P.
Thanks for the input. Colin knew several of the WW II and Vietnam POWs. Thanks for watching.
I met Col Boyington when I was a kid through my father who was a Army Col at the time. Even though my father said he was a jerk, he also said he was a great pilot and a great leader. At this period of time, we needed tough guys who could produce results, and he did. His personal actions were overlooked because what he and the 214 had accomplished. After he was a POW that's a different story. He just looked after himself and I can understand the conflict. But as his ability as a fighter pilot and leader are undeniable. Growing up in Europe and at military bases through the world, I have met many veterans who served from WW2 through Vietnam. Col Boyington and others were why I joined the Marines. He was no Audie Murphy, but he was what was needed at that particular time and place.
Agreed and thanks for watching.
Greg’s famous quote is: “Show me a hero and I’ll show you a bum.” He had great self-awareness.
There must have been a few POWs that didn’t hate him, as they made paint out of toothpowder and painted BOYINGTON HERE on the roof of their POW camp when Allied aircraft started flying over.
As for the TV show, Cannell made it all up. Greg justified the BS with, “Anything can happen during the chaos of war. Who’s to say that none of what Stephen writes ever happened? It very well could have.”
The pilots of the Black Sheep were pretty horrified by the inaccuracies, but they understood that entertainment is not always factual history. Thanks for watching.
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL Of course I am sure none of them had the brains to realise that Pappy didn;t write the scripts.
except the god and jesus is great and best men, all of us, are scumbag.
Thank you. An insightful review of a complicated man during a critical period in History. As you say, probably best to allow each of us to make of him what we will. He certainly fought and lived hard. For my take, I tend to be less harsh on someone who struggles with charater flaws and at least credit him his true successes. Who can truely say they would be better, having never been there. Life is hard, and Pappy's Hard Drinking din't help. The fact he was married 4 times tends to support that he could be very loving, but that his flaws eventually drove others away. Love from a distance is perhaps the best strategy for such people...sadly, because we would all rather just offer love for hard fighting heroes. In the end, he did the best he could to survive and live with himself...what more can we say.
He was human. Like all of us.
True. Thanks for watching.
Thank you that was interesting.
Thanks for watching
Okay, not a choir boy. Still deserves to have a ship in his honor by now.
Agreed. Thanks for watching.
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL it's kind of a pet peeve of mine. The war has been over some 80 years; and none of these Marine Aces and holders of the Medal of Honor have been recognized for their service by the naval service. There is never been a ship named in honor of Marion Carl, Joe Foss or Greg Boyington. Nor has the Marine Corps followed the Air Force practice of naming any of its air stations for distinguished aviators.
I met Greg in Lakeland, Florida many years ago. He signed his first run book for me and we talked for a bit. I still have it and it is near shredded from me reading it many times. I have to admit, he was a bit annoying but regardless he went up against anyone or anything that came before him and survived..in spite of himself. He flew and took chances and risked his life for his country and all of us. My generation has not seen anything like the conflicts that took place during a world war. He earned all that I have heard about just of being in an airplane by himself with zeros on his tail and winning up against them. I personally don't care what he became, he earned the right to be what he wanted to be. He risked all and we should all be grateful for men like him. No one knows what war is actually like until you're there. RIP Greg....good bad or indifferent....brave man, though not perfect. By the way...when I read his book, I hear the voice of Robert Conrad. I LOVED the show and missed it. I AM a pilot and fly jets and helicopters. Nothing like what many men did to protect our freedom. No part of me would prefer to be in an airplane being hunted and potentially killed alone.
Agreed. Thanks for watching.
Met him at Kissimmee Airport, probably around the same time you did. Didn't;t get a signature, but he signed a painting of a Corsair that still hangs on the wall at the museum at Kissimmee Airport.
When I was about 10 years old (in Lakewood Colorado), my friends and I were obsessed with the TV show. We had our die-cast corsairs and everyday on the playground, we reactivated our airbase and flew missions around the playground.
I will not pass judgement on the man. He did what I have not done. He is a hero none the less. Perhaps not deserving of every accolade, but a hero.
Thanks for watching
Interesting and well balanced. Thank you.
Thank you kindly
Another one of those bigger than life characters. He may have been a drunk, he may have been an a-hole, but he was one hell of a gutsy pilot! RIP Pappy. I hope you and all of our other fellow Marines who are not alive are in a better place. Almost every guy that fights in combat soon realizes war is a racket and they are just being played. Drinking is just one way of coping. Back then there was no such thing as PTSD.
Thanks for watching
It was Smedley Butler, the U.S.M.C. General (winner of two Medals Of Honor) who used the phrase "War Is A Racket" for the title of his '30s book which condemned war and the exploitation of the men sent to fight it.
There was such a thing as PTSD, they just didn't have the fancy terminology. WW1 it was shell shock, WW2 it was combat fatigue. It's all the same thing and has been around since humans have been on the planet but it wasn't until the late 70's/early 80's that it became known as PTSD.
There's a stand-up comedy video with George Carlin where he talks about the terminology changing over the years and different wars. It's pretty good.
@@actionjksn Yup. In Korea it was "Operational Exhaustion" , it wasn't unti Vietnam that they started using the term "PTSD".
Joe Foss and Pappy Boyington will forever remain men of honor to me for their contribution to the war effort. There will never be a another generation of men who sacrificed so much to keep the freedoms we have. God Bless you all.🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Agreed, rare men indeed. Thanks for watching.
At the end of the day what you are describing is a cultural clash. Louis L’amour describes it best in many of his books when he said that the two groups think differently but that doesn’t make either one better or lesser than the other, it’s just one can’t sustain itself and will fade away. It’s faded away but still very much alive.
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I just found your channel and i love it! New sub for sure!
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He's a Marine. Both hero and villain. Semper Fi bro
Agreed. Thanks for watching.
For those of honor what is the difference?
@@johncargill2071 difference is one guy are not for themselves, another was for themselves and there's some are for nothing to fight.
Great video, always like to watch videos that don’t skirt the truth but rather tell it
I remember seeing a clip of Boyington recorded sometime around 1960 where he stated that he had been his own worst enemy because of his drinking. He may have been on the wagon at that point in his life. Judging from comments elsewhere in this thread about encounters with him into the 1980's, it would seem that he never really got a handle on that problem.
One of his more interesting quotes was "Show me a hero, and I will prove he is a bum." Boyington was very aware of his character flaws.
Yes, he had demons. Thanks for watching.
watched Black Sheep Squadron (Baa Baa Black Sheep) when i was a kid. Major Boyington was a Hero to us.
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He was both. A hero in combat and a villain when not in combat.
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Most of the officers and senior NCOs that I would have followed into combat weren't perfect airmen...but they were perfect for the job. I met Boyington in the late 1970s, my landlord was an aircraft mechanic under him in WWII; Boyington was a great person and very friendly. I remember someone saying something like, "Don't get to know your heroes too well, they can be disappointing." Probably true, but we are all human, we all have faults,,
Agreed, Boyington had some issues. Thanks for watching.
I guess Robert Conrad was the correct actor to play Pappy. That food issue as a POW was despicable.
Agreed. Thanks for watching
think what you would do if you were starving
@@patrickmulroney9452 Part of being a marine is fighting as a unit. Having access to food and not smuggling it out is selfish to your starving soldiers.
It was survival. Boyington talked about it in his autobiography.
@@rotorheadv8 Boyington was a drunk and a bully… I knew two guys who served directly with him… wasn’t very well liked by his men
I’d love to see a remake of Black Sheep Squadron. Even a movie!
He was also a Founding member of the Flying Tiger's as well, before becoming the founder of the Black Sheep.
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I bought the DVD of Boyington in AA class after the war. Boyington did recognize he had a drinking problem and in AA, he did talk about his flying days.
My Great Uncle flew & died in the VMFA-215. My great grandmother got a nice letter from his commander (I guess Boyington, IDK) along with his belongings. I looked it up one time, awhile back, to see how he died, but it said that it was still classified.
Robert G. Owens commanded VMF-215, "The Fighting Corsair". Thanks for watching
I had seen the TV show as a kid, but later learned more of the story. While Boynton was "complicated," the rest of the Sheep were good pilots and good guys. I found out that the lone Texan in the group, Donald J. Moore was from my hometown of Amarillo. He attended Amarillo High School, went to the RAF and then to the Marines. Frank Walton, the information officer for the squadron wrote a book in 1986 that had the information about how Moore was lost 28 Dec 1943, considered shot down. I was working with my brother, another pilot and WWII historian, on putting together information for a book on Don, and I corresponded with Frank and a few of the other pilots for a couple of years. I think my brother's widow has the notes for the book, I've not checked. I did most of the interviewing and my brother was going to work on some of the details but we didn't get a chance to put it together. I still would love to get it done. Our little brother was a Marine, he was on the "mop up" of the Beirut Barracks bombing and before that was on the Honor Guard for the president (Reagan) in Washington. The stories he can tell us, which aren't all of them by a long shot, are very cool. And yes, he's another of the Marines with the attitude and sometimes the temper (and PTSD, unfortunately).
Thanks for a good video.
Thanks for watching.
When comparing Boyington to Foss there's one other thing to consider. Boyington flew the Corsair. Foss achieved all of his victories in a Wildcat. The Corsair could run circles around a Wildcat. Boyington had a lot more airplane.
True, and Foss at Guadalcanal was always in defensive combat with Marion Carl and the others, no breaks. Read the full interviews with Boyington, Foss and McCampbell in "Above the Pacific" by Colin. His book with European WW II pilots is "Above the Reich", then there are his German interviews in "The German Aces Speak" in two volumes. Thanks for watching
Spot on!
@@FORGOTTENHISTORYCHANNEL Pushing the Envelope by Carl is also worthwhile. Pappy gets the treatment.
An oversimplification. Thanks for that nugget of genius
As a 10 year old he signed my book of aviation right above his picture when he wasn't signing anything. I guess he liked I carried my favorite book to the airshow 😊
Awesome. Thanks for watching
I never missed an episode of Blacksheep. Sad to hear the truth. Thanks
Thanks for watching.
I still watch it every Saturday evening