Finally... someone calling something a "laminar flow hood" that has an ACTUAL HOOD! How refreshing. The only problem with this video title is that this design definitely does not produce laminar flow. I guarantee, just from watching the build, that this will work awesome, and be an invaluable tool for either electronics or mycology. Make no mistake, I am not shitting on this design, quite the opposite. I am actually praising this man's work. AND, there is no need for laminar flow for mycology (I cant speak for electronics repair, as I am completely ignorant to that field of work). As long as this produces somewhat steady clean air, it will do just fine. But make no mistake, this is not laminar flow, nor does it need to be. Also, a flame test, smoke test, nor particulate test indicates laminar flow, merely a generalized idea of how turbulent the airflow is. To test for laminar flow youd need an anemometer that not only measures airflow but variances within said airflow as well. There is a lot of math and features involved with achieving laminar flow. There are specialized 12" thick filters containing specialized straws within, baffles for the cabinet, and particular pairing between fan CFM, cabinet volume, plenum size, and proper filter specs that must ALL be met to achieve laminar flow. This design meets none of that, but should still work great none the less. Needing laminar flow for mycology is a common misnomer. A quick tip for future designs, get you a wider filter that goes all the way across the face of the hood, height and width wise. Every single professional FFU and actual laminar flow device's filters encompass the entire face of the device. Will definitely eliminate those dead spots you showcased in your walk-thru, and will also help turbulence considerably. Overall, kickass design brother, nicely done!
Awesome! Thank you very much for all of that, I went back a test. I left a few Petri dishes open in different areas for 5 minutes. 3 weeks later there is still no growth. I feel confident that it works good enough. Thanks again for taking your time for the long comment and vote of confidence.
For mycologists arguing that it does not, or hardly, produce a laminar flow, I would say that the design corrects that issue quite nicely. As long as you have the sides and the plexiglass air tight, any turbulence will not suck contaminations into the chamber and you have a good amount of working space. Seems to me it works fine (although I failed to see where you sealed the filter properly to prevent air leaking through the edges) and I definitely enjoyed watching the build. Nice job.
It looks decent, and the parts you used look familiar (haha) but sadly you are not getting laminar flow with that shield in the way and you can clearly see this with your lighter/flame test. I'm not 100% sure if you've seen my vid or not but I explain this in more detail in my vid (not sure if RUclips would allow me to link to it). I would lose the "wings" and top shield and then properly tune it for laminar flow. The flame must be nearly perfectly still or you don't have laminar flow. I'm not sure how clean the air must be for your intended purpose (plant propagation) but this design definitely will not work for mycology. You can also easily prove if your design is working or not with a 5 minute open agar plate test (also shown in my vid). If you research the medical industry, and look at commercial portable laminar flow units, you will see that they do not have fins/wings this is because that tends to produce more turbulent air, the reason is that it causes a vacuum in the areas that aren't in front of the filter. Good luck!
I totally was referencing your video, I'm kinda shocked that you checked out my video, thanks for all the pointers. Now I'm going to do the agar plate test. My thinking was that if all the air is filtered and fully exchanged then it would be clean air, I turned my cabinet on about 15 min before using, so if there is turbulence and pockets of unclean air hanging out and circulating then it would eventually get moved out. Time to experiment.
@@FlomatonFamous Hah yes the RUclips algorithm actually recommended your vid to me! ;). You have no idea how many people have asked me about "improving" my design by adding a real "hood" or sides, or directing the output into a still air box. It seems logical and intuitive, but its wrong. Laminar flow is the gold standard, turbulent air is the enemy. What happens is, you are right that clean air is coming out and filling the box, but as soon as you put your hands in there, all the contamination from your own body is suddeny flying all over the place in that box and this can cause problems. You really just don't want anything at all impeding the air and you definitely don't want to "box it up". I'm not saying your design can't work though, I just believe it will be less reliable. Its definitely going to be better than nothing and potentially better than a still air box although I'm not sure about that. If you really clean your arms and wear fresh nitrile gloves when you do your work, it will give you the best chance of success and truthfully people should do that anyway regardless.
Laminar vs turbulent doesn’t matter much, all that matters is that the air is sterile. Either type of flow will achieve this, they’re just pushing airborne bacteria and particulates away from your work area.
@@fancycrafts7774 BINGO! I try to stress this all the time. Laminar flow is not needed for this hobby, merely somewhat smooth persistent filtered air will more than suffice for our needs. This is a common misnomer pushed by those that simply do not understand what they are talking about. Also to note, many people showcasing DIY "laminar flow hoods" with HEPA-14 filters simply do not understand exactly what laminar flow is, how to achieve it, much less how to test for it, nor the fact that their filtration devices come no where near actual laminar flow. Most of all, the most humorous part, is that they seem to not understand it is regardless, and completely unnecessary for these purposes 😆 Im not laughing at the guy in the video at all, I actually appreciate the design and hard work put forth to create such a design. That being said, anyone claiming laminar flow, and illustrating such with: a lighter, smoke, or a particulate meter is simply and utterly wrong. A lighter (fireplace or any kind), or smoke is merely an indicator of *generally* HOW turbulent the air is, and a particulate meter does nothing but indicate filter efficacy, nothing more. Glad/surprised to see someone in the comments who knows what they are talking about. Nice to meet you!
People relax on the laminar flow. Its a DYI project its perfect for plant tissue culturing. If you're in real lab dealing with chemistry or viruses then yes spend the 4 grand for a true lab grade laminar flow hood.
What a great build I'm a mushroom grower and have been researching FFU box by far your FFU box is the simplest and well thought out. I'm definitely going to be building my own with your layout. Much appreciated thank you!
I have under laboratory condition used various hoods. I have been thinking of making one for safety purposes for handling dangerous fumes and other things that have safety issues. for those hoods designed for working with bacteria I was taught to thoroughly clean the metal surfaces of the hood with 70% alcohol and we also had UV lights we could turn on at the beginning to sterilize the hood. These UV lights were turned off before the work began. We also briefly flamed our working instruments with a bunsen burner. Stainless steel or some real good surface coating for the wood seems like a good idea. I will later watch video and seems like a very good topic.
@@FlomatonFamous I did many things. For the hepafiltered hoods I was working with bacterial building a genetic library from the blue crab. A lot of other things have happened since. I do not know much about tissue culture and likely if you are faithfully reproducing what the others are doing, you will have success. Sometimes it is little things that they do not share that can make the difference. A highly conserved red pigment-concentrating hormone precursor in the blue crab Callinectes sapidus J M Klein 1 , C J Mohrherr, F Sleutels, N Jaenecke, J P Riehm, K R Rao
While I'm fortunate enough to do carpentry for a living, I feel for the average joe looking at the $500-1000 needed in tools to build it proficiently/effectively.
I have to say, that build was BOSS! If you had it sitting at a garage sale, I'd buy it just for how cool it looked. I wouldn't even have to know what it is! 😆 As far as the overall design, I think it would have been nice to have the filter fill the entire workspace. Just to improve the laminar effect and reduce the turbulence and possibility of backflow from outside the hood back into your work area. But that clear top and interior light was a very nice touch! I hope you have much success in your nursery!
Really nice build that and great results! Was a great watch :) I am more low tech for my mycology reasons but need to make a housing for my budget filter option, which appears to do the lighter test nicely, so I have high hopes, as Pandora always has Hope ;)
You can use the air filter of a Benz Sprinter 190 ps or a Dodge Ram 1500 396ps. These Engine air filters are 0,3 micron. That's suficient. Not all engine air filters have 0,3 micron, but quality oem products made of thick folded paperlike material do and they have no leaks. For the turbo turbine and dpf of turbo diesel engines clean air is crucial (turbo engines in general but diesel is cheaper and you have to take care of the dpf). So I would go for these.
I ain't sure we can't call that laminar flow but it is sur a sterile uni directional flow that could work good enough for stuff that need clean environment. I would have choose the wood for cleaning purposes tho
i would call this a positive pressure box. is it laminar flow? no, will it keep your samples contaminate free? yes. as long as the filter works the air is clean and it will keep contamination coming in from the air.
Why didn't you use glue for all the joints? Wouldn't that increase strength and create a better seal to prevent contamination from sneaking through due to the high air pressure from the fan? In any case, very nice build... kudos.
I built something very similar out of insulation foam board. While this is better than nothing, the problem with this design (as others have mentioned) is that the air is still turbulent beyond an inch or so due to the difference of filter size and working space. I designed and 3D printed some flow correction grids for mine and it performs much, much better than it did without.
yea, my mistake, I did take a dish and opened it up in the hood for 5 minutes and 5 days later nothing is growing. I think this will work good enough for what I'm doing. If I build another I'll make those corrections.
My husband is going to make me a laminar flow hood. I wanted one like the one you made.Did you have good results with your flow hood? Thanks so much for the video
It's a great design and as a home mycology grower it's perfect I'm in the process of building this design. I highly recommend it. It's simple well built and perfect for what you need. The best point it doesn't hurt the wallet 😁
Thank you, it's not attached, when I cut the hole exactly the size it needed to be. you could seal the gap with a little silicone to prevent air from escaping.
@@FlomatonFamous I dont think those small gaps will be an issue unless you decide to modify this current design with some type of pre-filter. As is, its a non-issue, as far as I can tell.
Wow awesome design! Im going to make a similar design but im planing using a 12"x24"x6" filter with .9 pressure restriction. Do you thing this fan would be enough? Is you fan is set to max? My understanding is that i would need 200cfm ++ for the restriction. Thanks in advance!
Hi, Thanks. I'm not sure that this fan would be enough. I'd probably try to use a stronger fan. Yes this was all the way up. If you wanted to take the risk, you can always order from amazon and stick with the same circumference and swap it for an upgrade if it didn't work.
all these "mycology experts" blabbing their mouth, man.. I built an $80 laminar flow hood using 1 filter, a giant plastic tote, and a fan on the other side. Been using it for a year, and to my surprise, with near perfect sterility on my agar cups. None of these mycology 'experts' are scientific at *all*... they all find a single way in which work can be accomplished and then think that their $2,000 laminar flow hood is the ONLY way to do work. Doing science is not difficult and does not require a degree. If you want to build a cheap laminar flow hood and check the sterility, all you need to do is open up some agar cups in front of it in different areas in 3 dimensions. I got away with not spending an additional $1,900 and it feels GREAT. Edit: nice job building your flow hood! Don't listen to the amateurs man, it looks great, and probably performs well enough too!
@@FlomatonFamous at that point the filter has much more life left in it. no point in being wasteful. I see you admitted to using GordoTEK's video as a jumping off point, he discusses this issue.
Does 70% isopropyl alcohol ruin a polyacrylic finish? I want to seal the wood on my laminar flowhood, and I use alcohol to sterilize my working surface.
I looked up the filter that you bought and it looks like it also comes with a carbon filter. Is that a separate piece or is the carbon filter integrated with the HEPA filter? What are your thoughts about boxing in your fan and using the carbon filter as a pre-filter to extend the life of your HEPA filter>
Dude clearly doesn't understand the concept of laminar... I like the build though, and he does have laminar flow in the center, just gotta keep the work at of those turbulent areas.
Finally... someone calling something a "laminar flow hood" that has an ACTUAL HOOD! How refreshing. The only problem with this video title is that this design definitely does not produce laminar flow.
I guarantee, just from watching the build, that this will work awesome, and be an invaluable tool for either electronics or mycology. Make no mistake, I am not shitting on this design, quite the opposite. I am actually praising this man's work. AND, there is no need for laminar flow for mycology (I cant speak for electronics repair, as I am completely ignorant to that field of work). As long as this produces somewhat steady clean air, it will do just fine.
But make no mistake, this is not laminar flow, nor does it need to be. Also, a flame test, smoke test, nor particulate test indicates laminar flow, merely a generalized idea of how turbulent the airflow is. To test for laminar flow youd need an anemometer that not only measures airflow but variances within said airflow as well. There is a lot of math and features involved with achieving laminar flow. There are specialized 12" thick filters containing specialized straws within, baffles for the cabinet, and particular pairing between fan CFM, cabinet volume, plenum size, and proper filter specs that must ALL be met to achieve laminar flow. This design meets none of that, but should still work great none the less. Needing laminar flow for mycology is a common misnomer.
A quick tip for future designs, get you a wider filter that goes all the way across the face of the hood, height and width wise. Every single professional FFU and actual laminar flow device's filters encompass the entire face of the device. Will definitely eliminate those dead spots you showcased in your walk-thru, and will also help turbulence considerably.
Overall, kickass design brother, nicely done!
Awesome! Thank you very much for all of that, I went back a test. I left a few Petri dishes open in different areas for 5 minutes. 3 weeks later there is still no growth. I feel confident that it works good enough. Thanks again for taking your time for the long comment and vote of confidence.
@@FlomatonFamous The build looks solid, I had little to no doubt it would function just fine for our needs. Really liked your design and ingenuity
People it's not a controlled lab lvl FFU. Its DIY home plant tissue culturing relax with laminar flow 😂
@@jacksonnc8877 bruh.. Your comment is completely irrelevant. Youre just talking to talk
What speed setting is the fan on in this video?
For mycologists arguing that it does not, or hardly, produce a laminar flow, I would say that the design corrects that issue quite nicely. As long as you have the sides and the plexiglass air tight, any turbulence will not suck contaminations into the chamber and you have a good amount of working space. Seems to me it works fine (although I failed to see where you sealed the filter properly to prevent air leaking through the edges) and I definitely enjoyed watching the build. Nice job.
Thank you. I didn't seal the edges. I'm relying on the foam edges of the filter to prevent air leaks.
It looks decent, and the parts you used look familiar (haha) but sadly you are not getting laminar flow with that shield in the way and you can clearly see this with your lighter/flame test. I'm not 100% sure if you've seen my vid or not but I explain this in more detail in my vid (not sure if RUclips would allow me to link to it). I would lose the "wings" and top shield and then properly tune it for laminar flow. The flame must be nearly perfectly still or you don't have laminar flow. I'm not sure how clean the air must be for your intended purpose (plant propagation) but this design definitely will not work for mycology. You can also easily prove if your design is working or not with a 5 minute open agar plate test (also shown in my vid). If you research the medical industry, and look at commercial portable laminar flow units, you will see that they do not have fins/wings this is because that tends to produce more turbulent air, the reason is that it causes a vacuum in the areas that aren't in front of the filter. Good luck!
This is the vid I refer to above: ruclips.net/video/lInfdAVvBts/видео.html
I totally was referencing your video, I'm kinda shocked that you checked out my video, thanks for all the pointers. Now I'm going to do the agar plate test. My thinking was that if all the air is filtered and fully exchanged then it would be clean air, I turned my cabinet on about 15 min before using, so if there is turbulence and pockets of unclean air hanging out and circulating then it would eventually get moved out. Time to experiment.
@@FlomatonFamous Hah yes the RUclips algorithm actually recommended your vid to me! ;). You have no idea how many people have asked me about "improving" my design by adding a real "hood" or sides, or directing the output into a still air box. It seems logical and intuitive, but its wrong. Laminar flow is the gold standard, turbulent air is the enemy. What happens is, you are right that clean air is coming out and filling the box, but as soon as you put your hands in there, all the contamination from your own body is suddeny flying all over the place in that box and this can cause problems. You really just don't want anything at all impeding the air and you definitely don't want to "box it up". I'm not saying your design can't work though, I just believe it will be less reliable. Its definitely going to be better than nothing and potentially better than a still air box although I'm not sure about that. If you really clean your arms and wear fresh nitrile gloves when you do your work, it will give you the best chance of success and truthfully people should do that anyway regardless.
Laminar vs turbulent doesn’t matter much, all that matters is that the air is sterile. Either type of flow will achieve this, they’re just pushing airborne bacteria and particulates away from your work area.
@@fancycrafts7774 BINGO!
I try to stress this all the time. Laminar flow is not needed for this hobby, merely somewhat smooth persistent filtered air will more than suffice for our needs. This is a common misnomer pushed by those that simply do not understand what they are talking about. Also to note, many people showcasing DIY "laminar flow hoods" with HEPA-14 filters simply do not understand exactly what laminar flow is, how to achieve it, much less how to test for it, nor the fact that their filtration devices come no where near actual laminar flow. Most of all, the most humorous part, is that they seem to not understand it is regardless, and completely unnecessary for these purposes 😆
Im not laughing at the guy in the video at all, I actually appreciate the design and hard work put forth to create such a design. That being said, anyone claiming laminar flow, and illustrating such with: a lighter, smoke, or a particulate meter is simply and utterly wrong. A lighter (fireplace or any kind), or smoke is merely an indicator of *generally* HOW turbulent the air is, and a particulate meter does nothing but indicate filter efficacy, nothing more.
Glad/surprised to see someone in the comments who knows what they are talking about. Nice to meet you!
Mycology aside, that's a nice bundle of cypress you've got there. Thanks for your video.
Thanks
People relax on the laminar flow. Its a DYI project its perfect for plant tissue culturing. If you're in real lab dealing with chemistry or viruses then yes spend the 4 grand for a true lab grade laminar flow hood.
Looks to me like you did a hell of a nice job on it!
Thank you!
What a great build I'm a mushroom grower and have been researching FFU box by far your FFU box is the simplest and well thought out. I'm definitely going to be building my own with your layout. Much appreciated thank you!
Awesome, thank you! I'd love to see how it turns out.
Looks very nice! I especially like the light in there.
Thanks!
I have under laboratory condition used various hoods. I have been thinking of making one for safety purposes for handling dangerous fumes and other things that have safety issues.
for those hoods designed for working with bacteria I was taught to thoroughly clean the metal surfaces of the hood with 70% alcohol and we also had UV lights we could turn on at the beginning to sterilize the hood. These UV lights were turned off before the work began. We also briefly flamed our working instruments with a bunsen burner. Stainless steel or some real good surface coating for the wood seems like a good idea.
I will later watch video and seems like a very good topic.
That's great, what work did you do? I will try to keep it as sterile as possible.
@@FlomatonFamous I did many things. For the hepafiltered hoods I was working with bacterial building a genetic library from the blue crab. A lot of other things have happened since.
I do not know much about tissue culture and likely if you are faithfully reproducing what the others are doing, you will have success. Sometimes it is little things that they do not share that can make the difference.
A highly conserved red pigment-concentrating hormone precursor in the blue crab Callinectes sapidus
J M Klein 1 , C J Mohrherr, F Sleutels, N Jaenecke, J P Riehm, K R Rao
@@loquat44-40 Bet you did some cool stuff, I'd love to hear about it some time.
While I'm fortunate enough to do carpentry for a living, I feel for the average joe looking at the $500-1000 needed in tools to build it proficiently/effectively.
A good flow hood is over $1000
@@superresistant0 a good laminar flow hood (an actual hood) is 12-15k
I have to say, that build was BOSS! If you had it sitting at a garage sale, I'd buy it just for how cool it looked. I wouldn't even have to know what it is! 😆 As far as the overall design, I think it would have been nice to have the filter fill the entire workspace. Just to improve the laminar effect and reduce the turbulence and possibility of backflow from outside the hood back into your work area. But that clear top and interior light was a very nice touch! I hope you have much success in your nursery!
Thank you for the compliment. I went back and forth about having the filter fill the back wall.
me gustó mucho, very well; great job. Greetings from Venezuela
Awesome, thanks for sharing this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Really nice build that and great results! Was a great watch :) I am more low tech for my mycology reasons but need to make a housing for my budget filter option, which appears to do the lighter test nicely, so I have high hopes, as Pandora always has Hope ;)
Glad it was helpful!
You can use the air filter of a Benz Sprinter 190 ps or a Dodge Ram 1500 396ps. These Engine air filters are 0,3 micron. That's suficient. Not all engine air filters have 0,3 micron, but quality oem products made of thick folded paperlike material do and they have no leaks. For the turbo turbine and dpf of turbo diesel engines clean air is crucial (turbo engines in general but diesel is cheaper and you have to take care of the dpf). So I would go for these.
Good to know!
I ain't sure we can't call that laminar flow but it is sur a sterile uni directional flow that could work good enough for stuff that need clean environment. I would have choose the wood for cleaning purposes tho
i would call this a positive pressure box. is it laminar flow? no, will it keep your samples contaminate free? yes. as long as the filter works the air is clean and it will keep contamination coming in from the air.
Why didn't you use glue for all the joints? Wouldn't that increase strength and create a better seal to prevent contamination from sneaking through due to the high air pressure from the fan? In any case, very nice build... kudos.
Just in case I need to go back and modify or replace something.
I built something very similar out of insulation foam board.
While this is better than nothing, the problem with this design (as others have mentioned) is that the air is still turbulent beyond an inch or so due to the difference of filter size and working space. I designed and 3D printed some flow correction grids for mine and it performs much, much better than it did without.
yea, my mistake, I did take a dish and opened it up in the hood for 5 minutes and 5 days later nothing is growing. I think this will work good enough for what I'm doing. If I build another I'll make those corrections.
"Why" you don't need that lvl of an FFU. It's plant tissue culturing and perfect for what he's doing
My husband is going to make me a laminar flow hood. I wanted one like the one you made.Did you have good results with your flow hood? Thanks so much for the video
Awesome! So far yes I’ve had good results with it
It's a great design and as a home mycology grower it's perfect I'm in the process of building this design. I highly recommend it. It's simple well built and perfect for what you need. The best point it doesn't hurt the wallet 😁
How did you attach the fan to the top of you box ?? Riley like your setup!!
Thank you, it's not attached, when I cut the hole exactly the size it needed to be. you could seal the gap with a little silicone to prevent air from escaping.
@@FlomatonFamous I dont think those small gaps will be an issue unless you decide to modify this current design with some type of pre-filter. As is, its a non-issue, as far as I can tell.
It might well be a _little_ better than a DIY still-air box, for mycological purposes. But Im guessing not by much.
if base was trapesodial it would not have dead spots in corners. great work.
Cool, thanks for the input
@FlomatonFamous how does tool for making holes for wooden dowels called ? trying to find similar for myself
Dowel jig, bought mine from Harbor Freight
hello friend What are the cabin specs? width height fan cover
Very nice
Thanks
Wow awesome design! Im going to make a similar design but im planing using a 12"x24"x6" filter with .9 pressure restriction. Do you thing this fan would be enough? Is you fan is set to max?
My understanding is that i would need 200cfm ++ for the restriction. Thanks in advance!
Hi, Thanks. I'm not sure that this fan would be enough. I'd probably try to use a stronger fan. Yes this was all the way up. If you wanted to take the risk, you can always order from amazon and stick with the same circumference and swap it for an upgrade if it didn't work.
@@FlomatonFamous thank you very much for the fast response. You got me.confused now. I might give it a try.
all these "mycology experts" blabbing their mouth, man..
I built an $80 laminar flow hood using 1 filter, a giant plastic tote, and a fan on the other side. Been using it for a year, and to my surprise, with near perfect sterility on my agar cups. None of these mycology 'experts' are scientific at *all*... they all find a single way in which work can be accomplished and then think that their $2,000 laminar flow hood is the ONLY way to do work.
Doing science is not difficult and does not require a degree. If you want to build a cheap laminar flow hood and check the sterility, all you need to do is open up some agar cups in front of it in different areas in 3 dimensions. I got away with not spending an additional $1,900 and it feels GREAT.
Edit: nice job building your flow hood! Don't listen to the amateurs man, it looks great, and probably performs well enough too!
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I did an open jar test for 5 minutes and it never grew out anything. Works.
Play at 2x speed, you're welcome...
you had to set the fan all the way up initially? what happens when the filters gets dirty a bit?
separate it from the bottom and change the filter.
@@FlomatonFamous at that point the filter has much more life left in it. no point in being wasteful. I see you admitted to using GordoTEK's video as a jumping off point, he discusses this issue.
Does 70% isopropyl alcohol ruin a polyacrylic finish? I want to seal the wood on my laminar flowhood, and I use alcohol to sterilize my working surface.
I was curious I poured out a little to see what happens and yes it affects the varnish. You could probably use resin and it wouldn't affect it.
I looked up the filter that you bought and it looks like it also comes with a carbon filter. Is that a separate piece or is the carbon filter integrated with the HEPA filter? What are your thoughts about boxing in your fan and using the carbon filter as a pre-filter to extend the life of your HEPA filter>
I don’t think it needs to be added as a prefilter
@@FlomatonFamous i guess those filters are cheap enough that you don't have to stress replacements
The music is good I guess but distracting here.
5:27
I know you, you are the trump supporter LOL
I have no idea what you are talking about
@@FlomatonFamous trump supporter LOL
What are you referencing? You possibly have me confused with someone else.
@@FlomatonFamous did you remove my links?
@@themyceliumnetwork no, I looked in my notifications, I don’t see any links, where did you post them? You can email them also.
Dude clearly doesn't understand the concept of laminar... I like the build though, and he does have laminar flow in the center, just gotta keep the work at of those turbulent areas.
Honey comb or a baffle system between fan and filter would help.