One aspect of the movie that I haven't seen mentioned much, since certain other parts of the third act rather understandably steal all the attention, is that as soon as Arthur fires his lawyer and takes over his defense himself, it's repeatedly made clear that the judge and the entire jury isn't taking him seriously at all, which means it's impossible to feel any tension that he might actually win.
12:55 A good example of what you're talking about here is "The Family Madrigal" from Encanto. It's a pretty bog standard infodump. If this had just been spoken dialogue, the film would have made a very poor first impression, but not only is the song fun to listen to, it also does some subtle foreshadowing for a couple of later plot points and introduces the fact that Mirabel is the only one in her family without magic power. A standard opening monologue probably would have been less effective at pulling all that off at once.
Nice to hear a nuanced review either people think they are a genius who has unlocked the deeper meaning of the movie and folks ‘just don’t get it’ or they say its trash just because it wasn’t their wish fullfillment for a new Bat-Verse chain of films.
I managed to get free tickets as part of a giveaway to the IMAX premiere in my city. There was free sprite, I got 2 bottles... that was the best part of the movie. The free sprite. This movie is absolute pants. Also to clarify - the first one was pants too.
Then they should have hired one of the sony not spidervers directors to direct and turned Joker into what the people paying that money thought he was, a broken anti hero telling it like it is. Venom for DC. Not make a movie designed to piss them off.
In hindsight, this movie was a stroke of genius. Not because it's a good movie, but because by releasing it Todd Philips probably did the one thing that would prevent the media from accusing him for being responsible for Luigi killing that CEO.
Joaquin Phoenix actually CAN sing (he played Johnny Cash in Walk the Line and sang all the songs in that, and while he has a lower register than Cash did, he managed the songs quite well)... here he simply made Arthur Fleck into a character that couldn't sing...
The film has one original song and it shares a name with the film's title, Folie à Deux was written and Composed by Lady Gaga, and it plays during the dream/imagination sequence where Joker and Lee dance on the roof of a build in front of the big blue neon sign that says "Hotel Arkham". Anyway I personally really liked the film and it's musical numbers but to each their own.
which comes after him being violently tossed into his shitty cell, it is also the first time we see him dressed as Joker, and having some interest in delving into that persona again, previous to that he had no drive at all, but after he meets Lee and she seduces the Joker out of Arthur, he starts dreaming again, He also dances similarly as he tried dancing with his mother in the first film, but she did it aprehensively, Lee has given him full permision to light up his imagination. I mean you can dislike the movie but saying that the music and the songs do nothing narratively or say nothing about the characters is just wrong
IMAX cameras aren’t cheap by the way. I do agree that the first hour was promising, it had an awesome Looney Tunes inspired opening cartoon sequence by Sylvain Chomet. Beautiful hand drawn animation and great live action cinematography. Too bad it could have been perfect for a good movie.
Oh wow you said the exact thing I thought right out the gate. The first Joker didn't really have much to say, but it's still a good movie. Joker 2 tried to tackle like ten different topics and themes and utterly failed at all of them.
Sounds like the Director needs to watch the second wave of Disney movies for how to use music. Beauty and the Beast and the Little Mermaid both introduced the heroines in the animation in a song to show their loves and hobbies effectively. Agatha All Along used song very effectively in a story format where it's part of the story. Neither Harley "Lee" or Joker are that musical to me originally. The character Harley Quinn was a psychologist in most iterations and I don't know what Joker was career wise. It would make more sense that Penguin was into music. I like the original Joker for its portrayal of descent into mental illness. Once they got there it's like the Director didn't know how manifest the Mental illness at the prison. From people who I talked and had been treated with mental illness with meds and one of the things is pills put you fugue State. Where your mind is clouded and when I took allergy medicine I never hear music in my head because it was much harder to think. I don't know about prescriptions to treat mental illness. If Joker was going off the meds I can see scraps of music can be used for unraveling of the mind.
Yeah... the budget thing. I was gonna guess they overspent on the music but like you said, its largely public domain and little to no big choreography. So I don't get it either. Also looking forward to the Emilia review as I actually saw (part of) that one. Really glad I'm not the only one that hated it.
IKR? When I heard that was going to be a musical, with Gaga involved as HQ, I thought that _this could be_ the seed of something interesting. But I was not optimistic.
I'm no movie expert (I hardly ever watch movies) and I haven't watched the video yet- but I'd assume a large part of that cost went to hiring Lady Gaga for the lead role? She's a celebrity and a singer. That had to cost a lot.
I really do not consider Joker 2 a musical. It uses music in the way theater does, not in the way musical theater does. And yeah, they don't sing like musical performers. They sing like people, and on purpose like you said. I just think everyone got into it with the wrong presumption that they're gonna watch a musical.
@BreakRoomofGeeks well no I didn't think she took up the entire budget lol just that she probably does make up a large percentage of it (even 5% of a budget like that is still a large amount)
@@andrewklang809 I honestly don't know how much she got paid, but given she's an international pop star, and an extremely successful one, who has had success in acting before, I'd imagine she could request a large fee. I'd even argue she's a bigger draw than Phoenix for general audiences.
@@lloroshastar6347 The movie doesn't get made without Phoenix and Phillips, and the first one made a billion, so they could almost name their prices. Gaga was always optional. Also, even today big name female actors never get the salaries of the A-lister men.
Honestly I'm just over here hoping that a fave band of mine aiding in providing a song doesn't get too much crap from providing voices or whatever. Especially since several of their more recent music videos (Lonely is such an oof) run circles around this whole Joker fiasco.
Here's an idea. If you don't want the audience to idolize a villainous character, don't make a movie starring the villainous character. What the heck, let me give it a shot. Let the movie start with Arthur free and leading his followers. They do various stunts/crimes in Gotham as protests but Arthur is getting bored. The police decide to have one of their own (psychiatrist played by Gaga) infiltrate Arthur's organization to find out what he's up to, giving her the nickname Harley Quinn to appeal to his sense of humor. Meanwhile two of Arthur's new followers are a scientist and his girl assistant who have developed a prototype version of Joker Venom, to use either as a drug or to create chaos. Once "Harley Quinn" joins up, Arthur can have his musical number dream sequence with her, then use her as a part of a plan to inflict the Venom on Gotham (leading to another musical number). The girl assistant gets jealous (and more unhinged) and gets her own sequence with Arthur, while "Harley Quinn" gets more and more intrigued by him. Gotham Police set up a trap for Arthur, but "Harley Quinn" turns on them to let Arthur know. Shootout between Arthur's followers and the police. The girl assistant kills "Harley Quinn" as a traitor, then is able to manipulate Arthur through his delusions that she is actually Harley Quinn. So? Better or worse than Todd Phillips?
The comment at least helps this video in the algorithm. Joker folie a deux just loss a bunch of $ for the studio and employees who worked on the film and upset many fans
The point should have been trying not to be the joker and figuring out, yeah i didnt want this, and live through it And bloody try being a better musical? In like use it for emotional moments. And ok its good to officially have characters bring up their character or reintroduce in a more mystery one. And If Pheonix cant sing, give him a chorus?
The main reason I can't stand the director Michel Haneke is that he implicates the audience in violence, but not himself. Like dude, you made the film!
It actually cost one third of that, but Todd had an amazing vacation in Cancún, bought some property, stashed some money on the beach, the usual stuff.
I saw it. If Criterion (and human civilization) still exists in a decade or two, I bet this gets a Criterion Collection release. On the shelf next to "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" and "Heaven's Gate".
This movie honestly feels like that had to make this by the studio. This movie really doesnt work in almost any regard and its a follow up to the first one when it just wasnt needed at all. A sequel for the sake of it and for money
I'm glad I did not see it. I saw the first one with my dad and we agreed it's a one and done. We did not like it. I'm glad we skipped the sequel. It just didn't interest us. Wow what a review!
I personally think many many new musicals are poorly written, both in song and prose. Like Emilia Perez, Evan Hanson, with bland BROADWAY style song dialog
Honestly it was probably one of the worse movies i have seen in the cinemas, it was so boring i wanted it to end and the last few musical bits pissed me off i was like can this please wrap up, i can do bad just not boring certain people defending it being like the movie was good you just aint intelligent enough to understand it bitch please i understand it and still dont like it, its a waste of a joker movie to prove a point normal people can be like yeah the joker is batshit evil and fun to watch however when you apply your normal brain you know what he is doing is so far from good
He said 200 million in hopes that WB wouldn't make it, then they gave him the money and he made them a movie that he didn't want to make. Hopefully he did something good with the money he didn't spend on the movie
The first Joker movie is actually the more progressive movie over The Dark Knight. Like making a billion dollars had to tap culturally more than a few incels
@ I liked both, but I mean more in general how much this films being bashed and I dont get it 🫠 it’s not in my top ten of the year but the backlash is crazy
Yeah. I’mma just stick with the first Joker movie. Not that I think it’s a great movie, but it’s a movie that seemed to work better on its own. I honestly wish we got a standalone Lady Gaga Harley Quinn musical film with aesthetics of Chicago, instead of a sequel to Joker. And Todd Phillips shouldn’t have been involved, considering how sequels to films like The Hangover turned out.
I like this movie because it feels like a movie joker would make. The movie is a joke on the audience of the 1st film. Sometimes people just don't get the joke🤡
It's not about the money.
It's about sending a message.
What message? “We’re bad with money”?
Of you need to send a message use western union. Or make a good movie.
This movie feels like someone taking a dump on their desk before leaving the office for the last time
LOVE the shirt!
Never watched both Joker movies, but the shirt was worth commenting
True, It is a very nice shirt.
One aspect of the movie that I haven't seen mentioned much, since certain other parts of the third act rather understandably steal all the attention, is that as soon as Arthur fires his lawyer and takes over his defense himself, it's repeatedly made clear that the judge and the entire jury isn't taking him seriously at all, which means it's impossible to feel any tension that he might actually win.
Oh I never fault he would win the moment the deatb sentence was mentioned in act I. So for me it wasn’t about tension in that sense
Between this and “Beau is Afraid”, is Joaquin Phoenix just going to be doing “this should have been a therapy session” movies from here on out?
12:55 A good example of what you're talking about here is "The Family Madrigal" from Encanto. It's a pretty bog standard infodump. If this had just been spoken dialogue, the film would have made a very poor first impression, but not only is the song fun to listen to, it also does some subtle foreshadowing for a couple of later plot points and introduces the fact that Mirabel is the only one in her family without magic power.
A standard opening monologue probably would have been less effective at pulling all that off at once.
yup!
Nice to hear a nuanced review either people think they are a genius who has unlocked the deeper meaning of the movie and folks ‘just don’t get it’ or they say its trash just because it wasn’t their wish fullfillment for a new Bat-Verse chain of films.
Imagine if Stanley Kubrick made a $200M sequel to A Clockwork Orange just to (try to) say "fuck you" to all the people who idolized Alex.
Joker: Fumble à Deux
I managed to get free tickets as part of a giveaway to the IMAX premiere in my city. There was free sprite, I got 2 bottles... that was the best part of the movie. The free sprite. This movie is absolute pants. Also to clarify - the first one was pants too.
Why did you go see this one if you didn't like the first one? 🤔
The first Joker was about $55mil and made over a Billion..... That was the major lesson to learn but they failed
Then they should have hired one of the sony not spidervers directors to direct and turned Joker into what the people paying that money thought he was, a broken anti hero telling it like it is. Venom for DC. Not make a movie designed to piss them off.
In hindsight, this movie was a stroke of genius. Not because it's a good movie, but because by releasing it Todd Philips probably did the one thing that would prevent the media from accusing him for being responsible for Luigi killing that CEO.
I just thought it was a genius way to avoid being asked to make a 3rd movie 🤷♀️
Joaquin Phoenix actually CAN sing (he played Johnny Cash in Walk the Line and sang all the songs in that, and while he has a lower register than Cash did, he managed the songs quite well)... here he simply made Arthur Fleck into a character that couldn't sing...
Which is an odd choice
@gRinchY-op5vr If the idea is to make him off-putting and make it very clear this time, it's not that odd...
The film has one original song and it shares a name with the film's title, Folie à Deux was written and Composed by Lady Gaga, and it plays during the dream/imagination sequence where Joker and Lee dance on the roof of a build in front of the big blue neon sign that says "Hotel Arkham". Anyway I personally really liked the film and it's musical numbers but to each their own.
which comes after him being violently tossed into his shitty cell, it is also the first time we see him dressed as Joker, and having some interest in delving into that persona again, previous to that he had no drive at all, but after he meets Lee and she seduces the Joker out of Arthur, he starts dreaming again, He also dances similarly as he tried dancing with his mother in the first film, but she did it aprehensively, Lee has given him full permision to light up his imagination.
I mean you can dislike the movie but saying that the music and the songs do nothing narratively or say nothing about the characters is just wrong
IMAX cameras aren’t cheap by the way. I do agree that the first hour was promising, it had an awesome Looney Tunes inspired opening cartoon sequence by Sylvain Chomet. Beautiful hand drawn animation and great live action cinematography. Too bad it could have been perfect for a good movie.
On the list together to, but so much good stuff that it keeps getting bumped.
Engagement for the engagement god!
* wears robes and chants in engagement *
Both Joker movies are a shallow person's attempts to make "deep" movies
Oh wow you said the exact thing I thought right out the gate. The first Joker didn't really have much to say, but it's still a good movie. Joker 2 tried to tackle like ten different topics and themes and utterly failed at all of them.
Thanks for a welcome distraction 💛💛
I love musical movies they are really good and fun My favorite musical is percy jackson musical it is really well done.
Haven't seen it yet, but always love your takes! ❤
Joker 2: A Star is Born!
only good thing about this movie is that it made Zaslav look like an idiot
I've been flooded with news about what Trump is doing, hearing your voice was the first time I've felt like I can actually breathe. Thank you.
Sounds like the Director needs to watch the second wave of Disney movies for how to use music. Beauty and the Beast and the Little Mermaid both introduced the heroines in the animation in a song to show their loves and hobbies effectively. Agatha All Along used song very effectively in a story format where it's part of the story. Neither Harley "Lee" or Joker are that musical to me originally. The character Harley Quinn was a psychologist in most iterations and I don't know what Joker was career wise. It would make more sense that Penguin was into music. I like the original Joker for its portrayal of descent into mental illness. Once they got there it's like the Director didn't know how manifest the Mental illness at the prison. From people who I talked and had been treated with mental illness with meds and one of the things is pills put you fugue State. Where your mind is clouded and when I took allergy medicine I never hear music in my head because it was much harder to think. I don't know about prescriptions to treat mental illness. If Joker was going off the meds I can see scraps of music can be used for unraveling of the mind.
We've found the sequel plotline to The Producers folks. 🤔
Yeah I'm with you here. I saw it, I didn't hate it, but it looks like it cost $20m, not 10 times that.
Yeah... the budget thing. I was gonna guess they overspent on the music but like you said, its largely public domain and little to no big choreography. So I don't get it either.
Also looking forward to the Emilia review as I actually saw (part of) that one. Really glad I'm not the only one that hated it.
Everyone hates emelia Perez
@Nicholas_is_my_name Not on letterboxed, they don't.
I really wanted to see a good joker musical that was taking the piss out of the original joker.
IKR? When I heard that was going to be a musical, with Gaga involved as HQ, I thought that _this could be_ the seed of something interesting. But I was not optimistic.
I'm no movie expert (I hardly ever watch movies) and I haven't watched the video yet- but I'd assume a large part of that cost went to hiring Lady Gaga for the lead role? She's a celebrity and a singer. That had to cost a lot.
She was paid $12million. The budget was $200million. It’s not her. Nor is it the main star or director because they were $20million each.
I really do not consider Joker 2 a musical. It uses music in the way theater does, not in the way musical theater does.
And yeah, they don't sing like musical performers. They sing like people, and on purpose like you said.
I just think everyone got into it with the wrong presumption that they're gonna watch a musical.
I mean, when it comes to budget, Lady Gaga doesn't strike me as someone who would take a reduced pay check.
We know what she was paid and it wasn’t $200million
@BreakRoomofGeeks well no I didn't think she took up the entire budget lol just that she probably does make up a large percentage of it (even 5% of a budget like that is still a large amount)
No way in hell did she get paid as much as Phoenix or Philips.
@@andrewklang809 I honestly don't know how much she got paid, but given she's an international pop star, and an extremely successful one, who has had success in acting before, I'd imagine she could request a large fee. I'd even argue she's a bigger draw than Phoenix for general audiences.
@@lloroshastar6347 The movie doesn't get made without Phoenix and Phillips, and the first one made a billion, so they could almost name their prices. Gaga was always optional. Also, even today big name female actors never get the salaries of the A-lister men.
Honestly I'm just over here hoping that a fave band of mine aiding in providing a song doesn't get too much crap from providing voices or whatever.
Especially since several of their more recent music videos (Lonely is such an oof) run circles around this whole Joker fiasco.
Here's an idea. If you don't want the audience to idolize a villainous character, don't make a movie starring the villainous character.
What the heck, let me give it a shot. Let the movie start with Arthur free and leading his followers. They do various stunts/crimes in Gotham as protests but Arthur is getting bored. The police decide to have one of their own (psychiatrist played by Gaga) infiltrate Arthur's organization to find out what he's up to, giving her the nickname Harley Quinn to appeal to his sense of humor. Meanwhile two of Arthur's new followers are a scientist and his girl assistant who have developed a prototype version of Joker Venom, to use either as a drug or to create chaos. Once "Harley Quinn" joins up, Arthur can have his musical number dream sequence with her, then use her as a part of a plan to inflict the Venom on Gotham (leading to another musical number). The girl assistant gets jealous (and more unhinged) and gets her own sequence with Arthur, while "Harley Quinn" gets more and more intrigued by him. Gotham Police set up a trap for Arthur, but "Harley Quinn" turns on them to let Arthur know. Shootout between Arthur's followers and the police. The girl assistant kills "Harley Quinn" as a traitor, then is able to manipulate Arthur through his delusions that she is actually Harley Quinn.
So? Better or worse than Todd Phillips?
This comment has no value just like the movie
Not even the opening animation. That’s beautiful animation being wasted on this movie.
The comment at least helps this video in the algorithm. Joker folie a deux just loss a bunch of $ for the studio and employees who worked on the film and upset many fans
The point should have been trying not to be the joker and figuring out, yeah i didnt want this, and live through it
And bloody try being a better musical? In like use it for emotional moments. And ok its good to officially have characters bring up their character or reintroduce in a more mystery one. And If Pheonix cant sing, give him a chorus?
The main reason I can't stand the director Michel Haneke is that he implicates the audience in violence, but not himself. Like dude, you made the film!
It actually cost one third of that, but Todd had an amazing vacation in Cancún, bought some property, stashed some money on the beach, the usual stuff.
Phillips: "Or as I call it: Hollywood accounting."
More like, Folie à D’OH!
I just call this Joker: La même chose mais en français.
I haven't seen this and it doesn't matter now cause I doubt seeing it can be anywhere near as entertaining as your reaction to it.
Between this and Indy Jones 5, I don’t know which one was a more egregious money pit… Urgh.
At least we won’t get another of these.
I saw it. If Criterion (and human civilization) still exists in a decade or two, I bet this gets a Criterion Collection release. On the shelf next to "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" and "Heaven's Gate".
Isn't CC supposed to be good films?
This movie honestly feels like that had to make this by the studio. This movie really doesnt work in almost any regard and its a follow up to the first one when it just wasnt needed at all. A sequel for the sake of it and for money
Which I find weird, cause wasn't the whole reason Joaquin Phoenix signed on to the first one that there wasn't a drive for there to be a sequel?
Ain't Hollywood accounting fun?
Hope you review movie Wicked.
This is a strange movie
I'm glad I did not see it. I saw the first one with my dad and we agreed it's a one and done. We did not like it. I'm glad we skipped the sequel. It just didn't interest us. Wow what a review!
Wasn't this the movie where they just started throwing out the script and re-writing the next days's lines the night before? Or am I mis-remembering?
That’s a lot of movies actually.
Yeah Phoenix confirmed they were rewriting the script using napkins
I personally think many many new musicals are poorly written, both in song and prose. Like Emilia Perez, Evan Hanson, with bland BROADWAY style song dialog
Bad movie. Awesome rats❤
Honestly it was probably one of the worse movies i have seen in the cinemas,
it was so boring i wanted it to end and the last few musical bits pissed me off i was like can this please wrap up, i can do bad just not boring
certain people defending it being like the movie was good you just aint intelligent enough to understand it bitch please i understand it and still dont like it,
its a waste of a joker movie to prove a point normal people can be like yeah the joker is batshit evil and fun to watch however when you apply your normal brain you know what he is doing is so far from good
He said 200 million in hopes that WB wouldn't make it, then they gave him the money and he made them a movie that he didn't want to make. Hopefully he did something good with the money he didn't spend on the movie
The first Joker movie is actually the more progressive movie over The Dark Knight. Like making a billion dollars had to tap culturally more than a few incels
If i didn’t see and have no interest in the original, should i see this for the dude bro tears?
I was hoping it would be a good villain musical, kinda like Sweeny Todd. Its not.
Sometimes I think I live in bizarro world, this film was better than the first one 😂 easily
I mean in a way she agrees (i think)
And she doesn't like either of them
@ I liked both, but I mean more in general how much this films being bashed and I dont get it 🫠 it’s not in my top ten of the year but the backlash is crazy
Joker is absolute joke
Yeah. I’mma just stick with the first Joker movie. Not that I think it’s a great movie, but it’s a movie that seemed to work better on its own. I honestly wish we got a standalone Lady Gaga Harley Quinn musical film with aesthetics of Chicago, instead of a sequel to Joker. And Todd Phillips shouldn’t have been involved, considering how sequels to films like The Hangover turned out.
Licensing music is very expensive
They barely had to do that! Half the soundtrack is public domain.
They boosted the budget because they knew that if it had a low budget, union workers would say the people working on the film were being underpaid.
*citation needed.
I like this movie because it feels like a movie joker would make. The movie is a joke on the audience of the 1st film. Sometimes people just don't get the joke🤡