With many years of audio reinforcement I glean the review of the basics. It's great to think in it's most fundamental cause. Sometimes it's hard in the middle of a feedback event. In ears save 95% of feedback occurrences. Loving in ears finally becoming common
yeah, proper gain staging is super important at FOH but if you're handling both FOH and Monitors from the same desk, RTA YOUR MONITORS/SETS PRE DOORS AT CHECK! It only takes a few mins and if you know your freqs/zones, it's easy as pie. Have your techs/singer wave that mic aimed right down at em, especially if they like to get out front and into the first row of the crowd. Good content, keep it up!
Thank you sir for such a great guidance actually recently I got your video links from that day I am so much happy to watch and improve my system sounding thanks again
Great content. I've been following for a couple of weeks now and I must say your content really is help. My approach is usually first gain staging, all channels across the board. This helps when I have to run FoH, monitors and even running a 2.0 to my computer for multi tracking. Now that all systems have an adequate input signal, then ring out speakers. Each mix/auxiliary master channel to Unity, gradually bring the most common or spec resilient Microphone on stage. Then having a reasonable amount of Gate (the open and closing points set to sound as natural as possibly can) also helps cut every inactive signal at a given time. Oh and I use a QU32.
Been running live sound for nearly 15 years now and learned something new. never thought to bring up my monitors before setting the preamp gain. I've always set that first according to the meter. Ill have to try out your method for ringing out monitors next weekend.
are you going to EQ and then parametric every mic? if so, then go ahead. Bring up monitors before the preamp, and eq each mic as you bring it up. It'll quadruple or quintuple your setup time, probably douse any volume you get, and might get you fired from a job or two. You were right the first time. Preamp to a level for the electrical system, then work the room and speakers into it, then dial back if possible. Maximum gain before feedback changes with each spike you eliminate.
Yea i dont agree with that one point, this is improper gain staging. Set the proper preamp gain first before sending monitor levels. It would be like foh setting all the faders at unity and then mixing with using your gain levels. Always get healthy preamp gain, then set monitor levels then foh mix. You will get least feedback this way.
Thanks for the video! I'd like to mention that gain is in everything throughout the signal path, not just the preamp gain control. I think the term could be more clear if called "maximum total amplification before feedback", meaning that it has to do with all the amplification stages the signal goes through. Electrical noise also has to do with system feedback, so it's always good to set the preamp with the proper gain for the instrument, and letting a bunch of unnecessary noise get through by using the output levels as input levels. I agree that preamp gain has to be set properly, but that means not that too much as well as not too little. It depends on the signal level coming from the instrument, not on feedback.
Nice lesson. I usually start by teaching the difference between "feedback" and Static or white noise. A common mistake is they describe the problem to me over the phone or via text. I can talk them through any issue unless they use the childhood mistake of identifying every sound as "feedback". This communication problem can fix any problem by properly identifying the problem.
My mentor used to tell us that microphone placement had 2 priorities: #1 is to point the rejection axis of the mic at what you don't want to pick up. #2 is to point the pickup axis of the mic at what you do want to pick up. If you follow those rules in order, you'll be off to a running start. Anyway fantastic video, thank you for going through some of those practical tips.
The preamp gain control is there to send a healthy signal through the E Q,s FOH and monitors it is also possibly the only true gain control in the signal path the rest being attenuators
Hey Kyle, I really enjoy watching your RUclips Channel for your great advice in learning audio properly. I’m working as an Audio Engineer on many Hotel Meetings & Corporate Events doing live sound in a different Ballroom every week. I’m considering purchasing a reference microphone and could really use your help in learning the proper process of using it. I couldn’t find any clear direction on RUclips showing how to properly use this type of microphone… Any chance you could please put out a video showing us how to setup and properly use a reference type microphone??? We would all greatly appreciate it if you could. Many Thanks!
Beringher ECM8000 is enough. It is a cheap measurement microphone but it is really good. Just keep in mind that it has problems with the high end (12Khz and up, but you don't usually need to measure phase trace of those frecuencies and tonal adjustement can be done by ear) I've been working for 15 years in corporate events and I use that microphone with Smaart and RiTA FFT-based audio analyzers and it works pretty weel for me. And I don't have to be afraid of loose or broke a 300€ mic.
Mic gain must be set according to the input level meter - not to an aux pot position! Simply because that is the base for proper gain staging through the whole PA and monitor system. Especially in the analog domain.
Yeah, this is _REALLY_ confusing for newbies, especially when digital stage racks have one of two consoles set gains for the other and it's usually the Monitor tech to handle that, with FOH compensating via trims. The thing is, you won't find this arrangement outside of a house installation where the driverack already has everything at a desired volume level for whatever is expected or for a touring show where engineers tuned SPL for all SR beforehand. Unless someone else knows otherwise I can't think of any other case where Mons is setting channel gains-- I've never heard of it done using an analog split ::shrug:: In other words, yeah, the advice he gave for gain staging here is useless to anyone lacking experience.
Provided you are mixing FOH and Mons from the same console, I am not sure I agree with your definition of "Proper Gain Staging". I don't think that setting your gains with the main goal of maximizing aux send resolution is the best practice (when it comes to live sound anyway). Now, I'll admit you did mention that you do that when "mixing monitors", in which case, if you're only mixing monitors, that might actually be a good idea. Not having a go, I think your channel is really good. Just wondering what your thoughts are regarding what I said. Thanks for sharing knowledge!
@@AudioUniversity I can tell you in my experience, I set my input gain to the level that my gates and compressors act properly. (Properly to me anyways) Then I send as much aux to the monitor as it needs to be loud enough to the musicians. Your eq technique is spot on though I do recommend listening to it after each cut to make sure you haven't killed the fidelity of the monitor.
I had that same question. I usually have to mix monitors and FOH from the same mixer (A&H Zed22FX). If I cut the pre-amp gain as described, I would have to boost the FOH mains to compensate for that. I like the information given but yeah, mixing monitors and FOH from the same desk does have unique problems to work around
True, Alan. When mixing monitors from FOH, I’ll usually check through the mains before giving anyone anything in the monitors, because the mains will often leak onstage and reduce the amount needed in the monitors in many venues. I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience on this. Thanks for watching.
Yeah I was thinking the same. What I tend to do is set preamp gain for the main mix and admittedly I set based on what I see on meters and what hear but usually set it to averaging about -18db (thats where the meter crosses from green to orange). Then based on that my faders can be at about -10db and my main fader also about -10db which is usually about right for a starting point for our speakers and venue (I would have both at unity but then gain would need to be way too low for our monitoring. As much as the monitoring is important... if the main mix sounds crap whats the point 🤣
I have a limiter in my monitor chain. For problem hard to find freq’s, I drop the threshold of the limiter as low as it will go. I then raise the gain of the mic till it starts to feed back. Because of the low threshold on the limiter, the limiter will only allow it to feedback at a very low volume, not allowing it to “run away”. At this point you have immunity, and can play with the 1/3 octave, pushing faders up to see which is the problem freq, or cup the mic causing to feedback, all at a low, controlled volume. Or, view the problem freq’s on an rta. Afterward, bring the mic back to a reasonable volume before raising the threshold back up. I eventually set the threshold to just kiss the louder stuff, helping the musicians from going through too much audio fatigue, and protecting you amps and speakers. Btw, I trim my mics cold so there’s much less chance of distorting the mic pre. Remember, a distorted signal can derate your speakers handling power by as much as 90%!
I have limiters in the monitor chain. For real problems, I drop the threshold of the limiter down very low, then raise the gain on the mic. When it feeds back, the limiter will catch it and it will feedback at a low, controlled volume. Now with relative immunity of the feedback running away and damaging your ears or speakers, you can play with the 1/3 octave to find the most sensitive bands, or if digital, see it on an rta. You can play with it, cupping it, or hold a guitar which also will affect the response. After you stabilize it, reduce the gain to normal, then raise the threshold of the limiter to where it just kisses the signal at the loudest points. A slight limit on your monitor helps everyone with audio fatigue, and helps to protect the system overall.
Thank you for this video. This is great. Several years ago I was going to buy a 500 watt speaker that went down to 32hz. I wanted to hear my recording on my keyboard and the speaker on pole would be next to me. The speaker manufacturer told me I could not do that, as my mic would be aimed at the speaker. He told me I could not do what I wanted to do without using ear buds. I bought it and have placed my mic right in front of speaker. No feedback ever. I contacted the manufacturer 2 years later, and he still insisted I could not do that. I said I have a powered Yamaha mixer and gave model#. He then said, "Oh that has feedback suppression. That is why you can do that. " The rule is always quoted, but if you do not give the exception with it, then you have given wrong information. Thank you for giving us good info.
@@AudioUniversity Yes, the mixer is at the church and is Yamaha powered mixer emx7. Never once was there feedback. Curiosity got to me so before church I placed my mic 5 inches in front of live SA AUDIO speaker, no feedback. I was told by the speaker company others tried to do what I am doing, with about same speaker, they had feedback. So it was a great mixer that saved the day.
Because I’m usually the only person in my studio, I just simply either turn right down or Off my monitors and use IEMs when singing into the Mic just to be safe. I’m currently using one of those Zoom H2n Recorders (just for its Microphone) and plug its Line-Out into an audio interface. I do plan on buying a regular Condenser Mic later on though because I’m really interested and want to try one out!
I think preamp gain should be set based on what is required for a great basis for front of house mixing. Ideally you want to have all faders for FOH sound to be within -15 to +5 db area. (Exact markings depend on the mixer, some mixers mark this aforementioned 0db as -18db and then have 0 where you got horrible digital clipping, but should still portray the logarithmic scale on fader markings.) Higher gain than necessary results in lower fader position, where even a small movement of fader is a big change in sound level. And lower gain than necessary will cause you to run out of the fader travel without getting enough sound level. And on a multichannel pre-fader multimonitor setup you better not touch the gain after you have set it, no time to compensate everything down the line in a live setting. There is a simple trick to get the monitor levels to be at unity if you want to have that: turn down the monitor amp volume control, set the monitor sends, and then turn the monitor volume slowly back up where it is needed.
It might be fun to do a case study on the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound, and explain why the vocalists used 2 mikes. They explain this somewhat on the Grateful Dead movie.
Thankyou sharing how to hapen feedback from micraphone with speaker most of the time mixer gain control system and monitor distance including diraction and ilike your explanation keepit up
If you set the input gain low, you will end up with poor S/N on that channel. This is because all electronic circuits generate an electronic noise floor that is independent of signal strength. If you have a low signal at input, then the noise floor will be a higher percent of the signal level, when you amplify the signal late in the signal path to get to the VU you need, then the noise floor already contained with the signal is also amplified with it. Which is a bad thing. So the way to get a very clean signal, is to amplify the signal to unity (0VU) at the earliest possible point in the signal path. This is usually at the mixer input gain. Then any electronic noise added will be a small proportion of the signal. Now most decent size mixers will have groups. You will have several channels going to the 1 group and you want to avoid overloading the group input. So treat the faders as both mix controls and group input gain controls, so that you get the mix you want at unity gain. Next, your combing the groups into the mains, using the group faders to control the main mix and also the main input at unity gain. In the same way, have the amp input gain already setup to reach your target room SPL at unity gain from the mixer. Use the main fader to control the signal to the amplifier. This simplified description gives you unity signal through every path of your audio chain & that will give you the cleanest S/N performance achievable on whatever gear you have. Of course there is going to be some kind of EQ as well but there are many different ways that may be implemented, so I have ignored it for now, but hopefully you get the principle involved here and can apply it you whatever your setup is, including fold back systems. Some people like to use inline phantom powered mic preamps plugged directly into the base of low sensitivity dynamic mics for this exact reason. The following gives a rough guide where the mixing faders need to average around in order to achieve unity input gain to the next signal path stage. 2 ch @ -3-0 dB = 0 dB 3 ch @ -4.8 dB = 0 dB 4 ch @ -6.0 dB = 0 dB 5 ch @ -7.0 dB = 0 dB 6 ch @ -7.8 dB = 0 dB 7 ch @ -8.5 dB = 0 dB 8 ch @ -9.0 dB = 0 dB 9 ch @ -9.5 dB = 0 dB 10 ch @ -10 dB = 0 dB Probably just remembering the following will prove sufficient: 2 ch @ -3-0 dB = 0 dB 4 ch @ -6.0 dB = 0 dB 8 ch @ -9.0 dB = 0 dB
You know how you can establish a loopback track where you send your desktop sound into your DAW to record it? 1. How does that work compared to microphone-speaker feedback loop. 2. Also why do tutorials say to mute the loopback track you're recording? 3. And why does muting it not mute the audio recorded from your desktop sound ? Thank you!
Hello and thank you for this information. I have subscribed to your channel. Do you have any advice regarding musical theater actors wearing face mics? And another question, the actors want to be able to hear themselves out of the stage monitors. Is putting vocals in stage monitors is a bad idea? Where’s the best place to put these monitors? THANKS FOR ANY ADVICE!
Trying to discuss audio rationally these days is becoming as difficult as discussing politics. My advice for the new folks is to listen well. To your sound that is. If you have issues, give videos such as AU's a watch. If someone tells you 'This is the absolute and only way to approach this issue.' Just say thanks and look elsewhere. Spent 50 years in this business. From tube to solid state. From home made to $100,000 mixers. Helped engineer a gold record before leaving the studio for live and still love doing it. But I or no one is perfect. You never stop learning. If you think you know it all you'll be left behind. And in my travels I found that AU's videos are the most concise, no frills approach to achieving good sound. After all it's not just Kyle's educated opinion, he researches this stuff confiding in experts in their fields. My best advice is to always maintain a healthy positive attitude and you'll get through. Happy mixing.
Putting the stage foldback monitor 180 degrees out of phase to FOH will allow more gain before feedback. For analogue systems, make XLR adapters, with pins 2 & 3 swapped at one end, and place inline.
The music/sound industry misuses the term "feedback." Feedback occurs any time that any portion of a system's output reaches its input. This happens very frequently and often with acceptable results. The sound we call "feedback" is more properly "oscillation due to feedback." Before the system begins to oscillate, however, feedback has other effects. The most common effect is a change in frequency response, AKA "tone" that results from constructive and destructive wave interference. The statement "The point at which the sound from the speaker becomes louder at the microphone than the sound from the vocalist, [oscillation due to] feedback will occur," is incorrect. Consider that oscillation due to feedback can occur regardless of whether a vocalist is even present. Oscillation due to feedback occurs when the in-phase loop gain at any frequency exceeds unity and the oscillation occurs at the frequency with the greatest loop gain. In addition to microphone selection and speaker placement, the architecture of the stage is a factor. Especially, small stages with close back walls can be problems because that wall bounces sound from the monitor speakers toward the microphones.
i wish there was some kind of dynamic eq that would cut feedback loops when detected above a threshold and then set it a little lower....so it detects sine wave at 4000 then cuts a small q automatically untill its gone ..then sets it back to 0 with a small dip. Or something like that. I used a device from Behringen a looooooong time ago but it didnt really work and sounded awefull because it just cuts the beautifull high end...shouldnt this be possible with all the latest technology? Maybe in a low latency plugin?
I have a 2 channel power amp available to connect to an Allen/Heath PA28 mixer. The user manual talks about using FB1 for monitors, which I have configured the A-B outputs where 'A' is used for monitors via one amp channel and 'B' for Mains via the other amp channel. Is this the proper way to hook up the monitors or should I be using the Aux send? I have no individual control of instruments/vocals to specific monitors but I assume that's because I'm limited to just two power channels?
Hi Kyle, I watch all your videos and I'm very grateful for them. I'm self learning live sound reinforcement and studio recording as a hobby. Can you tell me more about your thoughts on setting the Aux to unity and then using the pre amp gain to get your level. You say that with the Aux at 0db and using the gain to regulate the level the musician needs, you can keep the gain low. This struck me as I thought gain should be set to 0db using PFL to ensure the optimal signal to noise ratio (SNR). Will your method of keeping input gain low result in a weaker signal and bring in ambient noise and then the high Aux level on the output side amplify the artist signal and the ambient noise also resulting in a degraded sound? If there is a reason what I'm saying doesn't apply or is wrong, I'm really interested to know why, as it means I am carrying around some misconceptions or living by hard rules that don't always apply. Thanks for all your videos and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
If I may, both the console manuals and AU's approach allow for a unity gain scereno. What was not mentioned here is the system gain structure. It's assumed the system gain was already set. AU discusses gain structure in another video. On the flip side consider the fact audio sources fluctuate. So setting the mixer's aux sends and channel faders to unity and then adjust the gain offers many benefits that may not be mentioned in console manuals. Also SNR in modern analog and digital mixers is a mute point when the engineer approaches gain structure as described in the videos. And then there's the big if, you experience noise while turning up a gain knob, that may be a defective channel or an issue up stream. Like an issue in the cabling, microphone, DI, instrument or amp.
Are you suggesting attenuating the input gain of each channel on a main mixer according to the maximum monitoring levels on stage, or for the situation you have a separate mixer for monitoring? I get the idea, but to me this wouldn't make much sense on a main mixer in terms of gain staging. Maybe I misunderstood
Great stuff, but one thing that wasn’t mentioned in regards to feedback: venue size and construction Having mixed in many small, acoustically poor venues, the gain staging will usually have to be approached differently for each venue, as the process for the last venue won’t work due to excessive reflective signals off walls, girders, etc. Still great to know these basics though
Question . How do you connect a Behringer FBQ2496 feedback destroyer to a Behringer PMP6000 powered mixer? I am only using this for home karaoke parties. I don't have a full band equalizer to do what you taught. Only an onboard 7 band equalizer that doesn't seem to help. A detailed description of using what cables involved ie an insert Y-cable to what input of the mixer. It was not recommended to insert into the FBQ into the microphones' s insert channel per the manufacturer. Their connection diagram on the user manual doesn't seem to suit mine. I have 2-3 microphones, 3 sound sources and 2PA speakers and 2 Powered Subs. Thanks for any helpful answers.
Trying to hook up a vintage microphone (EV664 with Audio Technica impedance transformer) to a Vox amplifier (AC4TV) and get nothing but terrible feedback no matter what I do. I want to amplify my acoustic guitar through this microphone with various effects pedals.
Great video, but a question I have is… What is the SPL of the stages you are doing monitors on? The stages I are for metal bands where it’s super loud. Will these techniques work for that?
Yes. I’ve mixed monitors for lots of genres, including metal. This technique just helps get the monitors as loud as possible while attempting to preserve sound quality. So, the stage and such only change how loud they can possibly be, not the technique for getting there (in my opinion).
Any videos on using lavs? I usually have to use 4-6 wireless lavs for panel discussions and have a horrible time keeping them open (so I don’t need to ride the faders) and not getting feedback (all presenters are about 3’ apart from one another) In addition, what’s the best way to provide them a monitor? Thanks in advance.
I don't have any videos on this, but it's a great suggestion. Here are some notes in the meantime: - It is definitely a challenge managing multiple lavs on stage, especially omnidirectional lavalier mics. Sometimes, you just have to ride the faders or use an auto mixer. - I usually try to be minimalistic about how much spoken word goes to a monitor. It usually doesn't need to be very much (if any) unless there is something the speaker needs to hear over, like music. - Try putting the the lav mics into a group and use a parametric EQ to cut frequencies and feedback in order to maximize the loudness and intelligibility. I hope this helps. Thanks for watching!
why don't you set the GAIN in PFL before everything on each instruments before to let out the signal to the monitor? THANKS!!!! explain it, I think it's really important!!!
sir i have a question. if my mixer have built in internal effects. and then i wanted to send effects to other aux as my monitor speaker. now how do i send the effects to my monitor speaker?
Sometimes the equalizer on the channel strip is helpful, but often it’s too imprecise. Most analog channel strip EQs will make broad adjustments rather than surgical adjustments.
if you set your monitor send and channel send at unity then add preamp gain to desired loudness you are changing the preamp gain in the front of house. not having tried this method, my immediate concern would be improper gain at front of house (too low, too high). I have always dialed in preamp gain with the FOH. then while running monitor at unity i'll adjust the channel send to musicians needs. I typically find the musician has enough perceived loudness well before the channel send reaches unity or feedback ( given that the musician doesn't cup the mic and the stage is set up properly)
Usually feedback doesn't happen with headphones (although it is possible). Most likely, the microphone is feeding back through your speakers. Be sure to turn the "Monitor" knob all of the way down when you've got a live microphone in the same room.
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I've been in the business of live sound for over 20 years and I approve of everything said and shown here!
You don't say !
Great
Thank you So much for the endorsement
It's so refreshing to have a question answered straight away without promos and call to action first. Gladly like and follow. Thank you 🙏🏾😁
This video has helped me a lot as a live sound engineer. Thanks a ton! NO MORE FEEDBACK!
With many years of audio reinforcement I glean the review of the basics. It's great to think in it's most fundamental cause. Sometimes it's hard in the middle of a feedback event. In ears save 95% of feedback occurrences. Loving in ears finally becoming common
Super helpful !! So helpful, in fact, I subscribed. THANK YOU.
yeah, proper gain staging is super important at FOH but if you're handling both FOH and Monitors from the same desk, RTA YOUR MONITORS/SETS PRE DOORS AT CHECK! It only takes a few mins and if you know your freqs/zones, it's easy as pie. Have your techs/singer wave that mic aimed right down at em, especially if they like to get out front and into the first row of the crowd. Good content, keep it up!
You are a FANTASTIC teacher, I learned a lot from only about three videos. Can't wait for you to get the big audience you deserve!
Thank you for explaining so clearly.
Thank you sir for such a great guidance actually recently I got your video links from that day I am so much happy to watch and improve my system sounding thanks again
Fantastic video, very clear and to the point, thanks
Great content. I've been following for a couple of weeks now and I must say your content really is help. My approach is usually first gain staging, all channels across the board. This helps when I have to run FoH, monitors and even running a 2.0 to my computer for multi tracking. Now that all systems have an adequate input signal, then ring out speakers. Each mix/auxiliary master channel to Unity, gradually bring the most common or spec resilient Microphone on stage. Then having a reasonable amount of Gate (the open and closing points set to sound as natural as possibly can) also helps cut every inactive signal at a given time. Oh and I use a QU32.
Thanks for sharing your method, Lawrence!
The clearest and most concise video on this subject EVER. Thank you.
Thank you! Very informative video.
Great video, great graphics and very well explained! Thanks for uploading!
Thanks, Alden!
Your channel is a goldmine thank you🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Been running live sound for nearly 15 years now and learned something new. never thought to bring up my monitors before setting the preamp gain. I've always set that first according to the meter. Ill have to try out your method for ringing out monitors next weekend.
are you going to EQ and then parametric every mic? if so, then go ahead. Bring up monitors before the preamp, and eq each mic as you bring it up. It'll quadruple or quintuple your setup time, probably douse any volume you get, and might get you fired from a job or two. You were right the first time. Preamp to a level for the electrical system, then work the room and speakers into it, then dial back if possible. Maximum gain before feedback changes with each spike you eliminate.
Yea i dont agree with that one point, this is improper gain staging. Set the proper preamp gain first before sending monitor levels. It would be like foh setting all the faders at unity and then mixing with using your gain levels. Always get healthy preamp gain, then set monitor levels then foh mix. You will get least feedback this way.
Very Valuable Lesson ! Thank you !
Thanks for the video! I'd like to mention that gain is in everything throughout the signal path, not just the preamp gain control. I think the term could be more clear if called "maximum total amplification before feedback", meaning that it has to do with all the amplification stages the signal goes through.
Electrical noise also has to do with system feedback, so it's always good to set the preamp with the proper gain for the instrument, and letting a bunch of unnecessary noise get through by using the output levels as input levels. I agree that preamp gain has to be set properly, but that means not that too much as well as not too little. It depends on the signal level coming from the instrument, not on feedback.
Nice lesson. I usually start by teaching the difference between "feedback" and Static or white noise. A common mistake is they describe the problem to me over the phone or via text. I can talk them through any issue unless they use the childhood mistake of identifying every sound as "feedback". This communication problem can fix any problem by properly identifying the problem.
Im ur new subscriber from the Philippines. All off the technicalities you mentioned are all true & correct! You must be an expert!
My mentor used to tell us that microphone placement had 2 priorities: #1 is to point the rejection axis of the mic at what you don't want to pick up. #2 is to point the pickup axis of the mic at what you do want to pick up. If you follow those rules in order, you'll be off to a running start. Anyway fantastic video, thank you for going through some of those practical tips.
Great tips, derek! Thanks for watching.
Good luck with that when you’re running a corporate show 😂
The preamp gain control is there to send a healthy signal through the E Q,s FOH and monitors it is also possibly the only true gain control in the signal path the rest being attenuators
Hey Kyle,
I really enjoy watching your RUclips Channel for your great advice in learning audio properly. I’m working as an Audio Engineer on many Hotel Meetings & Corporate Events doing live sound in a different Ballroom every week. I’m considering purchasing a reference microphone and could really use your help in learning the proper process of using it. I couldn’t find any clear direction on RUclips showing how to properly use this type of microphone… Any chance you could please put out a video showing us how to setup and properly use a reference type microphone???
We would all greatly appreciate it if you could. Many Thanks!
Beringher ECM8000 is enough. It is a cheap measurement microphone but it is really good. Just keep in mind that it has problems with the high end (12Khz and up, but you don't usually need to measure phase trace of those frecuencies and tonal adjustement can be done by ear) I've been working for 15 years in corporate events and I use that microphone with Smaart and RiTA FFT-based audio analyzers and it works pretty weel for me. And I don't have to be afraid of loose or broke a 300€ mic.
Wow! Das war sehr lehrreich! Vielen Dank!
Thank you. I learnt two new techniques
Very useful! Thank you!
Exactly what i was looking answered all my question thank youbso much and im using the exact mic in ur explaintion😅
Fantastic video 👏
You are awesome man. RUclips didn't recommended this video to me. U deserve more subscribers and blah blah blah.
Bro these videos are so informative it's unreal
Glad they are helpful! Thanks for your support, @Davie405.
in a small basement room with ductwork and no treatments, its very hard to get mics loud enough without feedback. interesting video.🍻
big guy u are clear and really good
All good advice.
Mic gain must be set according to the input level meter - not to an aux pot position! Simply because that is the base for proper gain staging through the whole PA and monitor system. Especially in the analog domain.
Agree. Always cure at the source
Exactly. It’s interesting when you see someone mixing and the meters are barely lit up.
I agree too... improper gain staging will effect also how EQs, Compressors and Limiters works.
Yeah, this is _REALLY_ confusing for newbies, especially when digital stage racks have one of two consoles set gains for the other and it's usually the Monitor tech to handle that, with FOH compensating via trims. The thing is, you won't find this arrangement outside of a house installation where the driverack already has everything at a desired volume level for whatever is expected or for a touring show where engineers tuned SPL for all SR beforehand. Unless someone else knows otherwise I can't think of any other case where Mons is setting channel gains-- I've never heard of it done using an analog split ::shrug::
In other words, yeah, the advice he gave for gain staging here is useless to anyone lacking experience.
There's lots of useful information here.
Provided you are mixing FOH and Mons from the same console, I am not sure I agree with your definition of "Proper Gain Staging". I don't think that setting your gains with the main goal of maximizing aux send resolution is the best practice (when it comes to live sound anyway). Now, I'll admit you did mention that you do that when "mixing monitors", in which case, if you're only mixing monitors, that might actually be a good idea. Not having a go, I think your channel is really good. Just wondering what your thoughts are regarding what I said. Thanks for sharing knowledge!
There are certainly other ways to do it. How do you approach gain structure when mixing monitors from the FOH console?
@@AudioUniversity I can tell you in my experience, I set my input gain to the level that my gates and compressors act properly. (Properly to me anyways) Then I send as much aux to the monitor as it needs to be loud enough to the musicians. Your eq technique is spot on though I do recommend listening to it after each cut to make sure you haven't killed the fidelity of the monitor.
I had that same question. I usually have to mix monitors and FOH from the same mixer (A&H Zed22FX). If I cut the pre-amp gain as described, I would have to boost the FOH mains to compensate for that. I like the information given but yeah, mixing monitors and FOH from the same desk does have unique problems to work around
True, Alan. When mixing monitors from FOH, I’ll usually check through the mains before giving anyone anything in the monitors, because the mains will often leak onstage and reduce the amount needed in the monitors in many venues. I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience on this. Thanks for watching.
Yeah I was thinking the same. What I tend to do is set preamp gain for the main mix and admittedly I set based on what I see on meters and what hear but usually set it to averaging about -18db (thats where the meter crosses from green to orange). Then based on that my faders can be at about -10db and my main fader also about -10db which is usually about right for a starting point for our speakers and venue (I would have both at unity but then gain would need to be way too low for our monitoring.
As much as the monitoring is important... if the main mix sounds crap whats the point 🤣
Great video!!
Nice Video sir.
n. IMP. Information
Thanks sir.👍👍👍
I have a limiter in my monitor chain. For problem hard to find freq’s, I drop the threshold of the limiter as low as it will go. I then raise the gain of the mic till it starts to feed back. Because of the low threshold on the limiter, the limiter will only allow it to feedback at a very low volume, not allowing it to “run away”. At this point you have immunity, and can play with the 1/3 octave, pushing faders up to see which is the problem freq, or cup the mic causing to feedback, all at a low, controlled volume. Or, view the problem freq’s on an rta. Afterward, bring the mic back to a reasonable volume before raising the threshold back up. I eventually set the threshold to just kiss the louder stuff, helping the musicians from going through too much audio fatigue, and protecting you amps and speakers. Btw, I trim my mics cold so there’s much less chance of distorting the mic pre. Remember, a distorted signal can derate your speakers handling power by as much as 90%!
Well information.
I have limiters in the monitor chain. For real problems, I drop the threshold of the limiter down very low, then raise the gain on the mic. When it feeds back, the limiter will catch it and it will feedback at a low, controlled volume. Now with relative immunity of the feedback running away and damaging your ears or speakers, you can play with the 1/3 octave to find the most sensitive bands, or if digital, see it on an rta. You can play with it, cupping it, or hold a guitar which also will affect the response. After you stabilize it, reduce the gain to normal, then raise the threshold of the limiter to where it just kisses the signal at the loudest points. A slight limit on your monitor helps everyone with audio fatigue, and helps to protect the system overall.
Thank you for this video. This is great. Several years ago I was going to buy a 500 watt speaker that went down to 32hz. I wanted to hear my recording on my keyboard and the speaker on pole would be next to me. The speaker manufacturer told me I could not do that, as my mic would be aimed at the speaker. He told me I could not do what I wanted to do without using ear buds. I bought it and have placed my mic right in front of speaker. No feedback ever. I contacted the manufacturer 2 years later, and he still insisted I could not do that. I said I have a powered Yamaha mixer and gave model#. He then said, "Oh that has feedback suppression. That is why you can do that. " The rule is always quoted, but if you do not give the exception with it, then you have given wrong information. Thank you for giving us good info.
Thanks for sharing this experience! The feedback suppression in that mixer must be excellent!
@@AudioUniversity Yes, the mixer is at the church and is Yamaha powered mixer emx7. Never once was there feedback. Curiosity got to me so before church I placed my mic 5 inches in front of live SA AUDIO speaker, no feedback. I was told by the speaker company others tried to do what I am doing, with about same speaker, they had feedback. So it was a great mixer that saved the day.
Because I’m usually the only person in my studio, I just simply either turn right down or Off my monitors and use IEMs when singing into the Mic just to be safe.
I’m currently using one of those Zoom H2n Recorders (just for its Microphone) and plug its Line-Out into an audio interface. I do plan on buying a regular Condenser Mic later on though because I’m really interested and want to try one out!
I think preamp gain should be set based on what is required for a great basis for front of house mixing. Ideally you want to have all faders for FOH sound to be within -15 to +5 db area. (Exact markings depend on the mixer, some mixers mark this aforementioned 0db as -18db and then have 0 where you got horrible digital clipping, but should still portray the logarithmic scale on fader markings.)
Higher gain than necessary results in lower fader position, where even a small movement of fader is a big change in sound level. And lower gain than necessary will cause you to run out of the fader travel without getting enough sound level. And on a multichannel pre-fader multimonitor setup you better not touch the gain after you have set it, no time to compensate everything down the line in a live setting.
There is a simple trick to get the monitor levels to be at unity if you want to have that: turn down the monitor amp volume control, set the monitor sends, and then turn the monitor volume slowly back up where it is needed.
Kyle you are a good teacher!
Thanks!
Thx a lot !!!! Very helpful
Glad you liked the video! Thanks!
It might be fun to do a case study on the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound, and explain why the vocalists used 2 mikes. They explain this somewhat on the Grateful Dead movie.
Good tips. I totally disagree with # 4 though. Set levels based so they don't clip THEN send to musicians.
Thank you
Thanks mate.
I enjoyed this, thank you
Glad you enjoyed it, Bryan! Thanks!
Valuable information.
Thanks for watching!
You are the best. Appreciation from Pakistan!
Thankyou sharing how to hapen feedback from micraphone with speaker most of the time mixer gain control system and monitor distance including diraction and ilike your explanation keepit up
Thanks for watching.
If you set the input gain low, you will end up with poor S/N on that channel. This is because all electronic circuits generate an electronic noise floor that is independent of signal strength. If you have a low signal at input, then the noise floor will be a higher percent of the signal level, when you amplify the signal late in the signal path to get to the VU you need, then the noise floor already contained with the signal is also amplified with it. Which is a bad thing. So the way to get a very clean signal, is to amplify the signal to unity (0VU) at the earliest possible point in the signal path. This is usually at the mixer input gain. Then any electronic noise added will be a small proportion of the signal.
Now most decent size mixers will have groups. You will have several channels going to the 1 group and you want to avoid overloading the group input. So treat the faders as both mix controls and group input gain controls, so that you get the mix you want at unity gain.
Next, your combing the groups into the mains, using the group faders to control the main mix and also the main input at unity gain.
In the same way, have the amp input gain already setup to reach your target room SPL at unity gain from the mixer. Use the main fader to control the signal to the amplifier.
This simplified description gives you unity signal through every path of your audio chain & that will give you the cleanest S/N performance achievable on whatever gear you have. Of course there is going to be some kind of EQ as well but there are many different ways that may be implemented, so I have ignored it for now, but hopefully you get the principle involved here and can apply it you whatever your setup is, including fold back systems. Some people like to use inline phantom powered mic preamps plugged directly into the base of low sensitivity dynamic mics for this exact reason.
The following gives a rough guide where the mixing faders need to average around in order to achieve unity input gain to the next signal path stage.
2 ch @ -3-0 dB = 0 dB
3 ch @ -4.8 dB = 0 dB
4 ch @ -6.0 dB = 0 dB
5 ch @ -7.0 dB = 0 dB
6 ch @ -7.8 dB = 0 dB
7 ch @ -8.5 dB = 0 dB
8 ch @ -9.0 dB = 0 dB
9 ch @ -9.5 dB = 0 dB
10 ch @ -10 dB = 0 dB
Probably just remembering the following will prove sufficient:
2 ch @ -3-0 dB = 0 dB
4 ch @ -6.0 dB = 0 dB
8 ch @ -9.0 dB = 0 dB
Man great information!
@@jar945 I spent 30 years researching & learning this stuff. Your welcome.
@@kenwebster5053 Wow! That's great.
Great work got some good tips Thanks
I am from India. Learned a lot from your explanation. Very good ...
Glad you enjoyed the video! Thanks, Suman!
Nice voice and explanation.
I liked tip#3 because its very specific haha I usually just pulled all the frequencies on my geq by 6
You know how you can establish a loopback track where you send your desktop sound into your DAW to record it?
1. How does that work compared to microphone-speaker feedback loop.
2. Also why do tutorials say to mute the loopback track you're recording?
3. And why does muting it not mute the audio recorded from your desktop sound ?
Thank you!
Hello and thank you for this information. I have subscribed to your channel. Do you have any advice regarding musical theater actors wearing face mics? And another question, the actors want to be able to hear themselves out of the stage monitors. Is putting vocals in stage monitors is a bad idea? Where’s the best place to put these monitors? THANKS FOR ANY ADVICE!
Thanks
Excellent video! Be careful with #4 - the resultant signal might be too weak for post production.
Well said! A healthy level is always important, but especially when you’re mixing for FOH or sending to a recording or broadcast feed.
GOOD TECHNICS
Trying to discuss audio rationally these days is becoming as difficult as discussing politics. My advice for the new folks is to listen well. To your sound that is. If you have issues, give videos such as AU's a watch. If someone tells you 'This is the absolute and only way to approach this issue.' Just say thanks and look elsewhere. Spent 50 years in this business. From tube to solid state. From home made to $100,000 mixers. Helped engineer a gold record before leaving the studio for live and still love doing it. But I or no one is perfect. You never stop learning. If you think you know it all you'll be left behind. And in my travels I found that AU's videos are the most concise, no frills approach to achieving good sound. After all it's not just Kyle's educated opinion, he researches this stuff confiding in experts in their fields. My best advice is to always maintain a healthy positive attitude and you'll get through. Happy mixing.
Thanks, Donald!
How about the octave down feedback loop trick?
Putting the stage foldback monitor 180 degrees out of phase to FOH will allow more gain before feedback. For analogue systems, make XLR adapters, with pins 2 & 3 swapped at one end, and place inline.
LIKED & SUBSCRIBED 😆
Keep posting, please.
thanks you so much for explain
Happy to help, Thnorm!
@@AudioUniversity thanks so so much sir
The music/sound industry misuses the term "feedback." Feedback occurs any time that any portion of a system's output reaches its input. This happens very frequently and often with acceptable results. The sound we call "feedback" is more properly "oscillation due to feedback." Before the system begins to oscillate, however, feedback has other effects. The most common effect is a change in frequency response, AKA "tone" that results from constructive and destructive wave interference.
The statement "The point at which the sound from the speaker becomes louder at the microphone than the sound from the vocalist, [oscillation due to] feedback will occur," is incorrect. Consider that oscillation due to feedback can occur regardless of whether a vocalist is even present. Oscillation due to feedback occurs when the in-phase loop gain at any frequency exceeds unity and the oscillation occurs at the frequency with the greatest loop gain.
In addition to microphone selection and speaker placement, the architecture of the stage is a factor. Especially, small stages with close back walls can be problems because that wall bounces sound from the monitor speakers toward the microphones.
Well the term feedback stuck so it really doesn't matter
Amazingggg
do have can you do a video on signal to noise ratio
Great video in general, but i dont think tip 4 is right.. what you said i think is the oposite of proper gain staging.. cheers from paraguay
Good day sir kindly I would you to help learn how to set sound from begining . I have no knowledge of sound system.
i wish there was some kind of dynamic eq that would cut feedback loops when detected above a threshold and then set it a little lower....so it detects sine wave at 4000 then cuts a small q automatically untill its gone ..then sets it back to 0 with a small dip. Or something like that. I used a device from Behringen a looooooong time ago but it didnt really work and sounded awefull because it just cuts the beautifull high end...shouldnt this be possible with all the latest technology? Maybe in a low latency plugin?
I have a 2 channel power amp available to connect to an Allen/Heath PA28 mixer. The user manual talks about using FB1 for monitors, which I have configured the A-B outputs where 'A' is used for monitors via one amp channel and 'B' for Mains via the other amp channel. Is this the proper way to hook up the monitors or should I be using the Aux send? I have no individual control of instruments/vocals to specific monitors but I assume that's because I'm limited to just two power channels?
Awsmmmmmmm brother
Thanks, Jay!
When you're cutting out frequencies on the graphic, is that just over the feed to the monitors or over everything?
Hi Kyle, I watch all your videos and I'm very grateful for them. I'm self learning live sound reinforcement and studio recording as a hobby.
Can you tell me more about your thoughts on setting the Aux to unity and then using the pre amp gain to get your level. You say that with the Aux at 0db and using the gain to regulate the level the musician needs, you can keep the gain low. This struck me as I thought gain should be set to 0db using PFL to ensure the optimal signal to noise ratio (SNR). Will your method of keeping input gain low result in a weaker signal and bring in ambient noise and then the high Aux level on the output side amplify the artist signal and the ambient noise also resulting in a degraded sound?
If there is a reason what I'm saying doesn't apply or is wrong, I'm really interested to know why, as it means I am carrying around some misconceptions or living by hard rules that don't always apply.
Thanks for all your videos and looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
If I may, both the console manuals and AU's approach allow for a unity gain scereno. What was not mentioned here is the system gain structure. It's assumed the system gain was already set. AU discusses gain structure in another video. On the flip side consider the fact audio sources fluctuate. So setting the mixer's aux sends and channel faders to unity and then adjust the gain offers many benefits that may not be mentioned in console manuals. Also SNR in modern analog and digital mixers is a mute point when the engineer approaches gain structure as described in the videos. And then there's the big if, you experience noise while turning up a gain knob, that may be a defective channel or an issue up stream. Like an issue in the cabling, microphone, DI, instrument or amp.
Are you suggesting attenuating the input gain of each channel on a main mixer according to the maximum monitoring levels on stage, or for the situation you have a separate mixer for monitoring? I get the idea, but to me this wouldn't make much sense on a main mixer in terms of gain staging. Maybe I misunderstood
Please sir make some video for pro tools software mixing mastering tutorial video
Hai ..how setup speaker ..mixer and microphones At home (indoor ).Thks
Great stuff, but one thing that wasn’t mentioned in regards to feedback: venue size and construction
Having mixed in many small, acoustically poor venues, the gain staging will usually have to be approached differently for each venue, as the process for the last venue won’t work due to excessive reflective signals off walls, girders, etc.
Still great to know these basics though
Question . How do you connect a Behringer FBQ2496 feedback destroyer to a Behringer PMP6000 powered mixer? I am only using this for home karaoke parties. I don't have a full band equalizer to do what you taught. Only an onboard 7 band equalizer that doesn't seem to help. A detailed description of using what cables involved ie an insert Y-cable to what input of the mixer. It was not recommended to insert into the FBQ into the microphones' s insert channel per the manufacturer. Their connection diagram on the user manual doesn't seem to suit mine. I have 2-3 microphones, 3 sound sources and 2PA speakers and 2 Powered Subs. Thanks for any helpful answers.
Damn l didn't know Brick from "The Middle" ran sound too!
I'm not sure I understand the way you gain stage... How would gain staging be different for monitors ? Aren't you aiming for -18 dBfs ?
Trying to hook up a vintage microphone (EV664 with Audio Technica impedance transformer) to a Vox amplifier (AC4TV) and get nothing but terrible feedback no matter what I do. I want to amplify my acoustic guitar through this microphone with various effects pedals.
Great video, but a question I have is…
What is the SPL of the stages you are doing monitors on?
The stages I are for metal bands where it’s super loud. Will these techniques work for that?
Yes. I’ve mixed monitors for lots of genres, including metal. This technique just helps get the monitors as loud as possible while attempting to preserve sound quality. So, the stage and such only change how loud they can possibly be, not the technique for getting there (in my opinion).
Sorry but no, the gain staging here is incorrect and could be seriously detrimental to the mix. Feel free to get intouch to discuss more
My name is Cristian
I have a question,
I can do recording using headphones output ?
Any videos on using lavs? I usually have to use 4-6 wireless lavs for panel discussions and have a horrible time keeping them open (so I don’t need to ride the faders) and not getting feedback (all presenters are about 3’ apart from one another)
In addition, what’s the best way to provide them a monitor? Thanks in advance.
I don't have any videos on this, but it's a great suggestion. Here are some notes in the meantime:
- It is definitely a challenge managing multiple lavs on stage, especially omnidirectional lavalier mics. Sometimes, you just have to ride the faders or use an auto mixer.
- I usually try to be minimalistic about how much spoken word goes to a monitor. It usually doesn't need to be very much (if any) unless there is something the speaker needs to hear over, like music.
- Try putting the the lav mics into a group and use a parametric EQ to cut frequencies and feedback in order to maximize the loudness and intelligibility.
I hope this helps. Thanks for watching!
Hi Kyle nice to meet you!
Nice to meet you too, Mark. Thanks for watching!
How do you know which frequencies are causing feedback?
why don't you set the GAIN in PFL before everything on each instruments before to let out the signal to the monitor? THANKS!!!! explain it, I think it's really important!!!
Using PFL is a good method.
sir i have a question. if my mixer have built in internal effects. and then i wanted to send effects to other aux as my monitor speaker. now how do i send the effects to my monitor speaker?
That’s a good question. I’d recommend bringing the FX output to a return channel of its own. Then send that return channel to the monitor.
Is there any way to reduce feedback with a analog mixer regular eq ?
Sometimes the equalizer on the channel strip is helpful, but often it’s too imprecise. Most analog channel strip EQs will make broad adjustments rather than surgical adjustments.
if you set your monitor send and channel send at unity then add preamp gain to desired loudness you are changing the preamp gain in the front of house. not having tried this method, my immediate concern would be improper gain at front of house (too low, too high). I have always dialed in preamp gain with the FOH. then while running monitor at unity i'll adjust the channel send to musicians needs. I typically find the musician has enough perceived loudness well before the channel send reaches unity or feedback ( given that the musician doesn't cup the mic and the stage is set up properly)
Right
Hi from Philippines 😁💖
Hello, Jel!
I always thought about this because when I record on my scarlet and the audio is playing thru my headphones does my mic pick that up to or ?
Usually feedback doesn't happen with headphones (although it is possible). Most likely, the microphone is feeding back through your speakers. Be sure to turn the "Monitor" knob all of the way down when you've got a live microphone in the same room.
How do you know what frequency is starting to feedback and which EQ band corresponds with feedback frequency?
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