Having, by fortune, come across and viewing your videos, I am very appreciative of the education/knowledge you so generously offer. You are a rare/gifted teacher! Thank you and best wishes.
Hey Jerry, I’m not a luthier, builder, or repair person but I just wanted to comment on how much I enjoy your videos. My wife walks into the room and sees me watching your videos on the TV on RUclips and just shakes her head. This particular one was a challenge For sure. Apparently you worked on this guitar for several months. Again, I can’t explain it but I love your videos
3M make sanding sponges from 600 to 1200 super fine. I've had mine for 20 years and they're still good. Just wash them out after use. They're about 4 x 6 inches. My father taught me how to French polish with shellac. Applied by hand with a rubber you don't get that orange peel finish, as you wipe off the top surface with each coat, which fills the grain. Last coat mixed with a tiny bit of spirit to soften it a little, then buffing makes it like a mirror.
i like 3m's red scotchbrite 600, comes in all sorts of form factors, from rolls, to pads, to discs and more. for a little more coarse, greens, a little finer, purples for a whole lot finer, white. greys are in there someplace as ultra-fine. the ones labeled blending pads are slightly more coarse, if i recall, while the hand pad variants are finer. note: they also have a super coarse purple stripped under the scotchbrite name, different stuff. they make some good abrasive product. i also use reds to get light rust off metal surfaces in old computers.
Mr. Rosa the finish you got in the lacquer clear appears to me to be fish eyes which is caused by contamination on the surface which could be caused by wax or oily hands. Not thinning the lacquer enough could cause the problem. Waiting in between coats also helps. I always spray a few coats of wood sealer to fill the grain by Stewmac. Good luck. Just keep in mind that thinner coats are better than thick coats. Also using a sanding block with your sandpaper is also a plus. I have refinished many guitars and in the beginning I had the same problem, but no more.
I believe a luthier friend of mine uses a sand sealer after grain filler is put on. It sinks in and fills the grain that lacquer would otherwise keep sinking into. Sand sealer sands beautifully. Once you get that done , the lacquer coats go on very smoothly. At that point , minor sanding and buffing can bring out a mirror finish. I'm no pro, I just thought I'd chime in and I hope my 2c is.of.some use to you ! You do amazing work. I hate to see your disappointment.
It's a very poor job on this old guitar and such a shame indeed and Caleb made an absolute mess of it. The problem is ( Jerry has said it before) he isn't very good at re finishing and if I wasn't capable I would have found someone who was. Its a customers guitar and if it was mine I would be very very disappointed.
@@stu-j couldn’t agree more. I’m sure that the cost of this job was pretty astronomical, based on a $100 per hour charge. I’d reckon for $1000 you could have had a real professional guitar finisher do a job that would have been ten times better. I want to be clear, I’m not necessarily knocking Jerry, it’s just clear that he isn’t a professional guitar finisher. He’s a builder/repair man.
@@stevedimebag I agree and don't want to bash his abilities at all but the quality of this is just very poor indeed and I'd be ( as a repair person for 30 years) embarrassed to have this on RUclips so he's got balls that's for sure. I've had things get away from me a few times over the years and I've had to get someone else to sort it as it was taking to long. I've just finished a 60s Gibson acoustic that needed a refinishing job and I've been using epoxy fill now for a few years and it's fantastic at filling the wide grain in mahogany. One pass of fill then sanded back and 5 coats of nitrocellulose. The customer thought it was a different guitar and was so happy. Jerry is a bit stubborn and won't change to modern ways to do things. Sorry Jerry I am still a fan tho.
@@stu-j yep - we’ve all been there. I’ve had one or two repairs where I have done my best, (and even though the customer is happy), I’m not, so I haven’t charged them for it. I always look at what I do and think - “would I be happy if I sent it to a shop and received that back?”. If the answer is no, (or even, “meh”), then I’m not proud of that, and it’s ‘on the house’.
Sir, I had trouble watching this Part 2. 6 string agony. I just about freaked when you started scraping the new finish off the neck. I believe that after refinishing this guitar, that our maker will escort you directly into heaven. Keep Smiling (cause it is finished)
Hey Jerry. Love your stuff and your perspective. I think on that one, I would have tried a French Polish instead of spray. Using a little pumice on the first coat would have filled the grain and soloed all of that pitting crap. I think it was the Tru-oil varnish that your intern used in the beginning that caused all of your problems, because it's an oil finish and will fight with lacquer, and penetrates into the wood....
Love your videos. Love your work. If this was my guitar, I wouldn't touch the finish. I love the way an old Martin or old Gibson sounds all dried out. The best sounding acoustic guitar I ever played was a 1945 D-18 which had dried out so badly that the top had a dozen cracks in. Best sound ever- old, dry wood:)
I would epoxy grain filled it then stain and probably 5 thin nitrocellulose coats and that would be that. It will be just as thin as the factory finish so no impact on sound. Just finished a old Gibson myself and it turned out fantastic and the customer thought I'd given him a different guitar back. I will never go back to the old grain fillers after using this new stuff it's incredible and because you sort of scrape it on it doesn't go on thick and takes almost no sanding to get a smooth filled finish.
Stu, did you use Z-poxy or another vendor's product? I'm getting ready to grain fill on a couple acoutics with epoxy for the first time. I've used a ton of polyester filler on electric bodies and necks over the years... Followed by acrylic urethanes. The acoustic finishing world is a bit new to me... I'm currently planning to use nitro over epoxy for these.
@@SkyscraperGuitars z poxy is a great fill and I'm using a very similar product. It's the best thing I've ever used in 20 years of repairing and building guitars as it has almost zero shrinkage as it binds with the fibre and is also a adhesive so best of both worlds. It is also quick drying so saves on time and the amount you actually use is very small. The benefits are you scrape it into the grain as end up with a almost perfect finish and only needs a small amount of sanding. If you need to add colour just add it to the product before you fill. It's great.
I've made some wonderful furniture and woodwork. The intricate and complicated joints and inlays etc. Where always satisfying. The finish is always the hard part for me.
The method to use shellac is called French Polishing. It's a technique that has been proven for a long time to be the best when using shellac. Watching you struggle with that finish made me want to cry. I felt your pain.
Hi Jerry, I am a Chemist in the Automotive depart at South Africa's biggest paint company. I feel you are having problems with your nitrocellulose finish because your spray viscosity is high. I suggest you invest in a Ford Cup 4 viscosity cup (or similiar) to thin your finish to 18 to 22 seconds 21 - 23 Celcius before application. Try this, just my way of trying to help. Enjoy your videos
I had a 1932 L-OO serial number 244, but the neck looked like a Les Paul neck with white trim up the neck. Neck was extremely well made. It was black with a white cellulose pick guard.
Sir. Your videos are so well done. Your skills are inspiring. Happy retirement and sorry about your hands hurting as I saw on your site. Nonetheless, I’m certain anyone who acquired your luthier skills is extremely grateful for you and your staff. Just wanted to type ya some true heart of thanks for all you / and your staff have done, do & present here on Yt. Take care. Best always. Dean
I like the the way you think and work. I don't know how to play a guitar or work on one I'm a self taught artist and wood worker and a Yynaby gun smith. I think guys from our generation learned to profect our techniques with patience and tools at hand. And with all the fancy technology and tools out there we can produce more lasting things or restore things that where meant to last. Seems like nowadays everything is built with obsolescence engineered into it.
This is so educational and encouraging. I'm a total novice, trying to put a new finish on my Taylor that has lived a hard life. I'm glad to know it's diffuclut for everyone, not just me. Thank you for the amazing videos.
How did the Taylor come out?? I’m prepping my classical for a true black stain and satin finish. I’ve never seen a pure black classical so I’m planning on putting my initials to make it my own little No Name
There is one masking tape you may not have tried. It's made by Tamiya and is used for modeling, it's very fine and has a very accurate adhesive designed not to allow the applied paints to seep underneath. It's not real cheap but if it saves you hours of scraping...
The nitro lacquer is sanded after each sprayed and dry layer, and then, after sanding with fine paper, it is polished with a sanding paste. It is a lengthy process.
I feel a little better seeing the fight that thing is giving you, having seen lots of your work on other jobs. I started doing a half-inch chip repair that turned into completely sanding, the back sides of a headstock, and now I have to restain it. I should’ve left the chip!
In my opinion Mohawk products have been my best luck for finishing i always fill a bucket with semi hot water to the point where ya if ya put the can in there its like 1/2in from the top and let it sit for 30 to 45 min before i use it and usually automates better. I do 2 light coats no sanding in between laqure coats melt into each other with with about 2 hours dry time in between a hour is to soon then 2 medium coats then let it sit a min of 24 hours then i do 4 coats a day med to heavy with 2 hour dry time and repeat till you get your desired finish then i wait 30 to 45 days before any kind of buffing or polish if you can smell the strong lacquer its not ready. I talked to a guy at Mohawk said never done before and that’s what he said and it turned out awesome. Love your videos!
I've got a Les Paul from the 70s that was involved in a tragic accident involving a floor furnace and lots of beer. Acetone worked pretty well removing the old finish without many issues with the plastic binding. Until I got to the headstock. The Les Paul silk screen went away INSTANTLY. 😳🤣
You got Lucky. Acetone is what is used to bind, multilayer, plastic bindings together. Whether it be PVC or the old nitrocellulose, it will attack it instantly.
the problem is the vapor pressure of the solvent it is the same mechanic that carries wine up the inside of the glass it happens with any solution where one component has a significantly lower evaporation point than the others..
I feel sorry for you having to do all that extra work. Before I retired, I used to do gel work on boats and one time I ran into an issue refinishing a Boston Whaler craft. I spent quite a bit of extra time sanding down the old finish, before prepping and cleaning the old gel before adding a new fresh coat of gel to the boat. I had carefully repaired spots that had chips in the old finish, but the owner wanted a full complete new finish on the boat in question. I was up early as the sun warmed up the day, and began spaying the fresh gel coat. I got it all finished and it looked great so now it was time to allow the new coat to cure and harden. That was around 10 am. I went back after a couple of hours of curing and from a distance it looked great. I tested the dryness, and found it hadn't dried one single bit. It wasn't curing in the time limit I had allotted for it to dry and harden. I was completely confused as to why the gel coat hadn't kicked off properly like it should have. I ended up having to strip the whole boat of fresh gel that was still wet, and not hardening. I had ordered straight gell with nothing added to it, but found out later after talking to the supplier, that the gel I got, had a premix wax solution in it. Without knowing, I had added wax solution before spraying the boat which means it got far too much wax solution in the mix preventing the gel finish, I had sprayed, to not kick off and dry properly as intended. If I had known the gel already had the solution mixed in it, I could have prevented this from happening, and it would have dried properly. It cost me another 24 hrs of work to redo the whole boat a second time, and get the job done properly. The place where I bought my gel coat that failed to tell me the wax solution was already in the gel, were charged for not only my extra added work at $110 dollars an hour, but also had to supply me with more fresh gel and sanding supplies to redo the whole boat at no cost to me. They weren't happy about it but my time is worth money and it delayed getting the boat finished on time for my customer. He wasn't happy that his boat wasn't finished on time, but understood the issue involved once I proved to him on what happened. At first he was steaming mad, but later calmed down. The boat got it fresh coat, and it looked good when done. Point I am making is that unforeseen things do happen to throw a wrench into the fire. Anyways everything finally turned out okay in the end. Somehow, I know what you were going through on this guitar.
I washed it down carefully with Acetone and disposed of the dirty paper towels in a fireproof container. Had to be careful that any of the gelcoat that might just finally kick off and heat up while hardening didn't start a fire. You have to be very careful working around gelcoat that has been set for hardening and acetone. A chemical reaction of heat can set off a fire from the gelcoat hardening. Can't take chances. Rags or paper towels that is used for wiping off the gelcoat can heat up and begin burning thus start a fire. Use a fireproof container to throw away spent rags or paper towels. Have a fire extinguisher handy as well. It can be very dangerous.@@AllanO808
Believe me, removing all the gell off a Boston Whaler boat was hard also and a ton of work. The boat had to be respayed properly without the added extara wax solution. It cost me money.@@AllanO808
Jerry, I recommend you give GluBoost a try. It's a tintable CA glue that utilizes a drying spray to harden. It's available in thick or thin, as well as needle-point nozzle applicators. This means you can match the stain color, apply the tinted glue, then spray the hardener to immediately harden it to a sandable, durable, color-matched repair. GluBoost also offers sand proof tape in various widths to mask-off, and sand over the repair only, and not the surrounding finish.
Hi Jerry, I was just curious about using paint stripper and posted here asking why they can not be used. Well, after watching further you answered my question on that subject so I had to edit this note! lol. Guess I should wait until I watch the entire video before asking anything in the future. Lesson learned! lol
Hey Jerry. The crack that showed up at approximately 38:00 is exactly why I never wet sand wood with water. Water gets in the crack or pin hole in the finish, raises the grain, and you've got a heck of a problem. FYI, the furniture plants in NC would use the yuckiest used motor oil you could imagine. After several sanding stations, somebody at the end had the privilege of cleaning it all off.
You might get a smoother coat using lacquer if after you spray with lacquer, you spray with 4 parts lacquer thinner to one part lacquer. It melts the lacquer and helps get rid of orange peel and smooths out the finish better.
Since shellac comes off with denatured alcohol, you could try just wiping it back down with alcohol. Also older shellac not only takes longer to cure but does not cure to as hard a film. This might explain the gumming up on the sandpaper. Not sure why your shellac was not clear in your little bottle. Other than being amber in color, shellac should be clear. Yours was oddly milky looking. Some people mention using fine sand paper while the shellac is wet to help fill pores.
Have you tried using a brush on resin,, varnish,,,it applies alot thicker so you won't sand threw,it also fills in the wood grain faster and iys not waxy when it drys
I have used an oil based stain and oil based high gloss polyurethane and it worked quite well with only 4 or 5 coats ! If you use a stripper then use fine stell wool and water to clean away any stripper residue and leave it dry overnight and then stain etc ! You might be sanding too much! I use open coat 1200 grit they use in body shops and it works for me !
Some folks just love to throw those axes at you Jerry. Pay no attention to them, they are not working on instruments or have a youtube channel. They think they can do better, but if that was the case, why are they watching? I have to say that you did back up and punt, and I think the lacquer was coming out fine, it was just going to take many more coats. Also you do not give up, you wasn't happy so you tried something different. I said it before, you are the best thing that happened to that instrument, regardless of the smoke some of these folks are blowing. I bet it turns out beautiful in the end, and you will have a very happy customer.
I don't mean any disrespect to him, but after watching many of his videos, I don't think he has the kind of expertise in touching up nor completely refinishing a guitar in these kinds of finishes to get the results he's after.
You need to use an epoxy grain filler first up , then sand back to wood . Then you can apply multiple coats of lacquer without it “ pulling back” as we say in the furniture business . When it comes to fine finishes, the best people to ask are automotive car painters
You should have used wood filler. And I would recommend wet sanding your sandpaper does not clog up or ball up. Put a little bit of soap in with your water. I've been working on guitars probably as long as you have and I have never dry sanded a guitar. I also wait quite a while before I sand on one at least 10 days to a month. thanks for your video.
I have used Solarez products to excellent effect. First the sealer, then the top coats. It’s UV cured. Usually 3 coats then sand back, then another 3. It flows nicely to provide a mirror finish. It’s very hard and seems to provide a nice tone on acoustics and is just about indestructible. Strengthens the guitar no end. Try it on something of low value first but I’ve never found anything that gives such a nice strong finish with a mirror surface. Oh, stain goes on first. Some manufacturers use it. I find the finish is mirror smooth and the resulting sound of the guitar benefits from its glass hard finish.
C'mon Jerry lol. Everyone has days and projects like this!! Cheer up!! (I know this is after the fact). Lacquer is the pickiest of finishes as to what is underneath it. It reacts with everything (ask me how I know lol). But when it goes on nice, it's like glass. And you can touch it up for the rest of your life (you can burn into it), unlike urethane that basically dries like a hard plastic and nothing penetrates it. It's just a bad day. Cheer up!! I'm sure you've heard it a million times, but I agree with your viewers when they say it is way better to sand it wet (with soap). Once you get those crystal buildups (you showed them in the video), akll you're doing is scratching the finish. I remember when 600 came out and boy that was something. And then 1000, wow. Ten hours less on the buffer. then 1200, then 1500. That saved a lot of time (think about sanding a Rolls or Bentley from the 50's or 60's). I know they go way up there now, at least to 30k. At a certain point, it's the law of diminishing returns (like you say). The only use I ever found for grit that high is to not buff it after (no swirl marks from the buffer).
Hey Jerry.. quite the struggle on this one for sure. Just a suggestion.. I’ve had better luck using 0000 steel wool over sandpaper. It appears to smooth and level faster too.. so it reduces the number of coats. At least that’s what’s worked for me. At first I didn’t think it would work.. but once I got the dull look after basically buffing the tru-oil with the steel wool.. I also seemed to have gotten there faster using the Tru oil filler (about 3 coats) and then Tru oil finish oil and it comes out slicker than snot on a porch rail. Hope that helps for next time..
Jerry I knew that wet dry sandpaper was going to do that. I used to have to sand Bread Delivery trucks so my Boss man could paint them and we tried that wet dry sand paper and it wouldnt even work good for sanding aluminum truck bodies. Needless to say we went back to the 3M dry sand paper and it works one hundred percent better
Mister Rosa, I'd like to share an experience with you and every other acoustic guitar player. Check this out! Grab a nylon string guitar and tune it well. Then, put your ear on the headstock and strum the first five strings, muting the big E. Let it ring for a few seconds, and you'll hear a very low D bass note as a result of the harmonics. You'd think that the A would be the logical winner in that battle. But no, it's the D, about 2 octaves down which determines the root of that chord. Please try it! It's very cool. And about as amazing as you are, Sir.
The pickguard on my Martin D-18 also curled at the edges. When I asked the luthier about that, he told me that Martin pickguards do often curl, even when they've not been polished.
My neighbor finishes fine, antique furniture and all I have ever seen him use was extra fine grades of steel wool. steel wool gives your nodules a place to go, and the build-up will go away :)
If you do not like using sanding blocks as you state try using a small rubber squeegie that is used to apply thin coats of finish glaze. i have a saying when in doubt, shout out to someone.As long as I have been refinishing guitars I still seek out advise.
It's not just lacquer on instruments that moves away from the defects. I'm applying urethane with a brush on a table for my daughter and it is doing the same thing.
Fisheye eliminator is mineral oil. You can use any kind of oil to counter act fish eyes. I've been using a couple drops of transmission fluid instead of paying $35.00 for 2 ounces of mineral oil/fish eye eliminator. And yes that's fish eyes.
That Looks Like an auto paint problem called fish eyeing. It comes from car wax. Some people claim silicone. I don't know. But the only way to stop it is to get a good sealer as your first coat. Though that's on metal and old paint. Who knows on wood.
I have a question; .... I have a cheap, not pricey acoustic cut-away I want to work on for practise. The neck is pulling away at the boot, so it needs a proper neck reset. Inside it looks sound and in good condition, and surface outside is flat but on the outside, it has a chipped factory finish in many places all over the body. It's the painted surface only that is chipped. I would like to remove all the factory black hard-shell painted finish that's now on it and redo it with a possible dark stained wood grain finish. I want to remove the old paint completely from the body and expose the nice wood grain under that old paint finish. I want to get the old finish completely off without removing lots of the wood surface of the main body by the use of sanding. Would carefully using paint remover ruin the wood's grain finish under the old painted finish if I use it or should I just remove the painted finish using 400 grit paper on an orbital hand sander and take my chances on not removing too much of the surface wood under that old black pained surface? Mind you, it's not an expensive guitar by any means. The wood grain may not be as good as I am hoping it might be once the old finish is removed. If that's so, I can always totally repaint and refinish the guitar like it once was, but I like full wood grain surface to show out on a guitar if that's possible. What would you suggest I do in this matter to get the old finish completely off. The neck will be removed (for a neck reset), and refinished as well, and re attached once new finish has been put on the main body. I'm just hoping that Paint remover won't damage the looks of the wood grain under the old finish if I use it. Like to hear from you about it. Any videos showing issues like this?
I'll preface this with acknowledging my lack of sandpaper experience, but it seems that the sandpaper you like is Aluminum Oxide and the sandpaper you don't like is Silicon Carbide. Have you checked online for 600 grit Aluminum Carbide sandpaper? There's some available from AA Abrasives. I don't know anything about the company, but it's a start.
As to sandpaper and your problems: Loading, as you call it, is the result of a "closed coat" paper as opposed to "open coat" which both refer to the placement of the media and the angularity as it presents outward. Further you do not offer what type of media is being used, which the manufacturer would indicate on the back of the paper or in their catalog. As to the media: there are many choices, each has properties which behave in specific ways. Harder media breaks down slower, yet cuts faster. Facing refers to the media. Learn more about sandpaper and your options increase: three components are present in sandpaper, 1) the backing material, 2) the binder which holds the media and attaches to the backing, 3) the media, silicone carbide, aluminum oxide, zirconia, etc. I also suggest your painting is the first place you should consider for that sets up the sanding requirements. I noticed your spraying...can an old dog learn new tricks? To bad you are finished with this type of work, I could have offered to teach you some "new tricks of the trade" for a reasonable amount of money as a consultant.
I noticed that your man did not prime the headstock before he painted it and that you didn't mention using a lacquer sanding sealer before applying your finish. Why don't you use primers and sealers? The stain not being sealed prior to finishing may be why your sandpapers are building up on you.
Are you worried about the removal of material via the random orbital sander? I know many luthiers recommend chemical stripping on the bare wood and then using a scraper to get up close to the binding. Random orbital sanders seem to always leave little pigtails in the wood
Higher viscosity polymers are created by increasing the polymerization. Making bigger molecules. When it cures, it continues to polymerization, it isn't drying.
2:09 "...it's just a technique thing..." sayeth the guy with a scalpel in one hand and a $5,000 guitar in the other .. Love it... I had no qualms over taking a scalpel to a human to trim the margins of a jagged laceration before stitching it up, but as adventurous as I am doing my own guitar repairs, I draw the line just before the need for a scalpel arises.... These days when someone asks how I can turn a corroded and dinged up piece of stainless steel trim into a perfectly flat, mirror polished surface in an afternoon, my stock line "It's nothing that a 10 year old can't do - with 11 years of experience..."
Maybe the 220 grit was to fine for the job, if the 150 is a better choice to start with on the lacquer finish. The shellac just proved the point, because the 150 got the ball rolling on the finish.... maybe
Having, by fortune, come across and viewing your videos, I am very appreciative of the education/knowledge you so generously offer. You are a rare/gifted teacher! Thank you and best wishes.
Hey Jerry, I’m not a luthier, builder, or repair person but I just wanted to comment on how much I enjoy your videos. My wife walks into the room and sees me watching your videos on the TV on RUclips and just shakes her head. This particular one was a challenge For sure. Apparently you worked on this guitar for several months. Again, I can’t explain it but I love your videos
3M make sanding sponges from 600 to 1200 super fine. I've had mine for 20 years and they're still good. Just wash them out after use. They're about 4 x 6 inches. My father taught me how to French polish with shellac. Applied by hand with a rubber you don't get that orange peel finish, as you wipe off the top surface with each coat, which fills the grain. Last coat mixed with a tiny bit of spirit to soften it a little, then buffing makes it like a mirror.
i like 3m's red scotchbrite 600, comes in all sorts of form factors, from rolls, to pads, to discs and more. for a little more coarse, greens, a little finer, purples for a whole lot finer, white. greys are in there someplace as ultra-fine. the ones labeled blending pads are slightly more coarse, if i recall, while the hand pad variants are finer.
note: they also have a super coarse purple stripped under the scotchbrite name, different stuff.
they make some good abrasive product.
i also use reds to get light rust off metal surfaces in old computers.
@@kenabi Good stuff 👍
Mr. Rosa the finish you got in the lacquer clear appears to me to be fish eyes which is caused by contamination on the surface which could be caused by wax or oily hands. Not thinning the lacquer enough could cause the problem. Waiting in between coats also helps. I always spray a few coats of wood sealer to fill the grain by Stewmac. Good luck. Just keep in mind that thinner coats are better than thick coats. Also using a sanding block with your sandpaper is also a plus. I have refinished many guitars and in the beginning I had the same problem, but no more.
You remind me of myself almost to a tee. The way you counter what you just said and then try to explain it, is just comical but oh so familiar.!
Thanks!
I believe a luthier friend of mine uses a sand sealer after grain filler is put on. It sinks in and fills the grain that lacquer would otherwise keep sinking into.
Sand sealer sands beautifully. Once you get that done , the lacquer coats go on very smoothly. At that point , minor sanding and buffing can bring out a mirror finish.
I'm no pro, I just thought I'd chime in and I hope my 2c is.of.some use to you !
You do amazing work. I hate to see your disappointment.
It's a very poor job on this old guitar and such a shame indeed and Caleb made an absolute mess of it. The problem is ( Jerry has said it before) he isn't very good at re finishing and if I wasn't capable I would have found someone who was. Its a customers guitar and if it was mine I would be very very disappointed.
@@stu-j couldn’t agree more. I’m sure that the cost of this job was pretty astronomical, based on a $100 per hour charge. I’d reckon for $1000 you could have had a real professional guitar finisher do a job that would have been ten times better.
I want to be clear, I’m not necessarily knocking Jerry, it’s just clear that he isn’t a professional guitar finisher. He’s a builder/repair man.
@@stevedimebag I agree and don't want to bash his abilities at all but the quality of this is just very poor indeed and I'd be ( as a repair person for 30 years) embarrassed to have this on RUclips so he's got balls that's for sure. I've had things get away from me a few times over the years and I've had to get someone else to sort it as it was taking to long. I've just finished a 60s Gibson acoustic that needed a refinishing job and I've been using epoxy fill now for a few years and it's fantastic at filling the wide grain in mahogany. One pass of fill then sanded back and 5 coats of nitrocellulose. The customer thought it was a different guitar and was so happy. Jerry is a bit stubborn and won't change to modern ways to do things. Sorry Jerry I am still a fan tho.
@@stu-j yep - we’ve all been there. I’ve had one or two repairs where I have done my best, (and even though the customer is happy), I’m not, so I haven’t charged them for it.
I always look at what I do and think - “would I be happy if I sent it to a shop and received that back?”.
If the answer is no, (or even, “meh”), then I’m not proud of that, and it’s ‘on the house’.
Sir, I had trouble watching this Part 2. 6 string agony. I just about freaked when you started scraping the new finish off the neck. I believe that after refinishing this guitar, that our maker will escort you directly into heaven. Keep Smiling (cause it is finished)
Hey Jerry. Love your stuff and your perspective. I think on that one, I would have tried a French Polish instead of spray. Using a little pumice on the first coat would have filled the grain and soloed all of that pitting crap. I think it was the Tru-oil varnish that your intern used in the beginning that caused all of your problems, because it's an oil finish and will fight with lacquer, and penetrates into the wood....
Love your videos. Love your work. If this was my guitar, I wouldn't touch the finish. I love the way an old Martin or old Gibson sounds all dried out. The best sounding acoustic guitar I ever played was a 1945 D-18 which had dried out so badly that the top had a dozen cracks in. Best sound ever- old, dry wood:)
A Finish Too Far. Like the movie A Bridge Too Far. Great video Jerry.
I would epoxy grain filled it then stain and probably 5 thin nitrocellulose coats and that would be that. It will be just as thin as the factory finish so no impact on sound. Just finished a old Gibson myself and it turned out fantastic and the customer thought I'd given him a different guitar back. I will never go back to the old grain fillers after using this new stuff it's incredible and because you sort of scrape it on it doesn't go on thick and takes almost no sanding to get a smooth filled finish.
Stu, did you use Z-poxy or another vendor's product? I'm getting ready to grain fill on a couple acoutics with epoxy for the first time. I've used a ton of polyester filler on electric bodies and necks over the years... Followed by acrylic urethanes. The acoustic finishing world is a bit new to me... I'm currently planning to use nitro over epoxy for these.
@@SkyscraperGuitars z poxy is a great fill and I'm using a very similar product. It's the best thing I've ever used in 20 years of repairing and building guitars as it has almost zero shrinkage as it binds with the fibre and is also a adhesive so best of both worlds. It is also quick drying so saves on time and the amount you actually use is very small. The benefits are you scrape it into the grain as end up with a almost perfect finish and only needs a small amount of sanding. If you need to add colour just add it to the product before you fill. It's great.
I think Jerry would reply but I hear he's still sanding that old Gibson.
I've made some wonderful furniture and woodwork. The intricate and complicated joints and inlays etc. Where always satisfying. The finish is always the hard part for me.
A lot of videos out there. You are still the best. Godspeed
The method to use shellac is called French Polishing. It's a technique that has been proven for a long time to be the best when using shellac. Watching you struggle with that finish made me want to cry. I felt your pain.
Your a flipping Saint, you have the most fantastic patience
Hi Jerry, I am a Chemist in the Automotive depart at South Africa's biggest paint company. I feel you are having problems with your nitrocellulose finish because your spray viscosity is high. I suggest you invest in a Ford Cup 4 viscosity cup (or similiar) to thin your finish to 18 to 22 seconds 21 - 23 Celcius before application. Try this, just my way of trying to help. Enjoy your videos
I had a 1932 L-OO serial number 244, but the neck looked like a Les Paul neck with white trim up the neck. Neck was extremely well made. It was black with a white cellulose pick guard.
Love your work
I love Stew Mac but get your 3M Gold from your auto parts store. You get a bigger roll for half the SM price
Sir. Your videos are so well done. Your skills are inspiring. Happy retirement and sorry about your hands hurting as I saw on your site. Nonetheless, I’m certain anyone who acquired your luthier skills is extremely grateful for you and your staff. Just wanted to type ya some true heart of thanks for all you / and your staff have done, do & present here on Yt. Take care. Best always. Dean
I like the the way you think and work. I don't know how to play a guitar or work on one I'm a self taught artist and wood worker and a Yynaby gun smith. I think guys from our generation learned to profect our techniques with patience and tools at hand. And with all the fancy technology and tools out there we can produce more lasting things or restore things that where meant to last. Seems like nowadays everything is built with obsolescence engineered into it.
This is so educational and encouraging. I'm a total novice, trying to put a new finish on my Taylor that has lived a hard life. I'm glad to know it's diffuclut for everyone, not just me. Thank you for the amazing videos.
How did the Taylor come out??
I’m prepping my classical for a true black stain and satin finish. I’ve never seen a pure black classical so I’m planning on putting my initials to make it my own little No Name
The trick we use when shellacing a guitar is to use acetone as a thinner its flashes off faster and is twice as shiny
There is one masking tape you may not have tried. It's made by Tamiya and is used for modeling, it's very fine and has a very accurate adhesive designed not to allow the applied paints to seep underneath. It's not real cheap but if it saves you hours of scraping...
The nitro lacquer is sanded after each sprayed and dry layer, and then, after sanding with fine paper, it is polished with a sanding paste. It is a lengthy process.
i FELT YOUR PAIN IN THIS ONE JERRY. MY HEART WAS BROKEN FOR YOU.
I like to use razorblades and metal scrapers designed for french cabinet polishing where possible over sanding and tru oil works like a dream.
I feel a little better seeing the fight that thing is giving you, having seen lots of your work on other jobs. I started doing a half-inch chip repair that turned into completely sanding, the back sides of a headstock, and now I have to restain it. I should’ve left the chip!
Jerry, You truly are a Master....Thanks for all of your insight and opinions! A life of experience. Thanks
I literally fell your pain. Great videos. Lovely channel. Thank you for everything
In my opinion Mohawk products have been my best luck for finishing i always fill a bucket with semi hot water to the point where ya if ya put the can in there its like 1/2in from the top and let it sit for 30 to 45 min before i use it and usually automates better. I do 2 light coats no sanding in between laqure coats melt into each other with with about 2 hours dry time in between a hour is to soon then 2 medium coats then let it sit a min of 24 hours then i do 4 coats a day med to heavy with 2 hour dry time and repeat till you get your desired finish then i wait 30 to 45 days before any kind of buffing or polish if you can smell the strong lacquer its not ready. I talked to a guy at Mohawk said never done before and that’s what he said and it turned out awesome. Love your videos!
I've got a Les Paul from the 70s that was involved in a tragic accident involving a floor furnace and lots of beer.
Acetone worked pretty well removing the old finish without many issues with the plastic binding.
Until I got to the headstock.
The Les Paul silk screen went away INSTANTLY.
😳🤣
You got Lucky. Acetone is what is used to bind, multilayer, plastic bindings together.
Whether it be PVC or the old nitrocellulose, it will attack it instantly.
the problem is the vapor pressure of the solvent it is the same mechanic that carries wine up the inside of the glass it happens with any solution where one component has a significantly lower evaporation point than the others..
I just did this, it took about 4 hours, but it came out really nice.
When the shellac is grayed by light sand, use a shellac rub and it returns to clear.
Liked, long-time subscribed, and now commented.
I feel sorry for you having to do all that extra work. Before I retired, I used to do gel work on boats and one time I ran into an issue refinishing a Boston Whaler craft. I spent quite a bit of extra time sanding down the old finish, before prepping and cleaning the old gel before adding a new fresh coat of gel to the boat. I had carefully repaired spots that had chips in the old finish, but the owner wanted a full complete new finish on the boat in question. I was up early as the sun warmed up the day, and began spaying the fresh gel coat. I got it all finished and it looked great so now it was time to allow the new coat to cure and harden. That was around 10 am. I went back after a couple of hours of curing and from a distance it looked great. I tested the dryness, and found it hadn't dried one single bit. It wasn't curing in the time limit I had allotted for it to dry and harden. I was completely confused as to why the gel coat hadn't kicked off properly like it should have. I ended up having to strip the whole boat of fresh gel that was still wet, and not hardening. I had ordered straight gell with nothing added to it, but found out later after talking to the supplier, that the gel I got, had a premix wax solution in it. Without knowing, I had added wax solution before spraying the boat which means it got far too much wax solution in the mix preventing the gel finish, I had sprayed, to not kick off and dry properly as intended. If I had known the gel already had the solution mixed in it, I could have prevented this from happening, and it would have dried properly. It cost me another 24 hrs of work to redo the whole boat a second time, and get the job done properly. The place where I bought my gel coat that failed to tell me the wax solution was already in the gel, were charged for not only my extra added work at $110 dollars an hour, but also had to supply me with more fresh gel and sanding supplies to redo the whole boat at no cost to me. They weren't happy about it but my time is worth money and it delayed getting the boat finished on time for my customer. He wasn't happy that his boat wasn't finished on time, but understood the issue involved once I proved to him on what happened. At first he was steaming mad, but later calmed down. The boat got it fresh coat, and it looked good when done. Point I am making is that unforeseen things do happen to throw a wrench into the fire. Anyways everything finally turned out okay in the end. Somehow, I know what you were going through on this guitar.
Always read the instructions of the products you are using! Perhaps that is where your troubles began, educating yourself on the materials you use...
How did you remove the sticky Gelcoat? I have a similar issue, and think a heatgun and scraper is the easiest way.
I washed it down carefully with Acetone and disposed of the dirty paper towels in a fireproof container. Had to be careful that any of the gelcoat that might just finally kick off and heat up while hardening didn't start a fire. You have to be very careful working around gelcoat that has been set for hardening and acetone. A chemical reaction of heat can set off a fire from the gelcoat hardening. Can't take chances. Rags or paper towels that is used for wiping off the gelcoat can heat up and begin burning thus start a fire. Use a fireproof container to throw away spent rags or paper towels. Have a fire extinguisher handy as well. It can be very dangerous.@@AllanO808
@@waynedavies3185 damn, I've got a full 5kg to remove! That's a ton of acetone.
Believe me, removing all the gell off a Boston Whaler boat was hard also and a ton of work. The boat had to be respayed properly without the added extara wax solution. It cost me money.@@AllanO808
It look's like you used not dewaxed shellack. I filtered mine with coffee filters, and it sands great.
Jerry, I recommend you give GluBoost a try. It's a tintable CA glue that utilizes a drying spray to harden. It's available in thick or thin, as well as needle-point nozzle applicators. This means you can match the stain color, apply the tinted glue, then spray the hardener to immediately harden it to a sandable, durable, color-matched repair. GluBoost also offers sand proof tape in various widths to mask-off, and sand over the repair only, and not the surrounding finish.
I did a epoxy table and had the same problem with the build up. I used mineral spirits and cleaned the paper made it like new again.
That’s why the old timers used a French polish for shellac finishes. I prefer true oil myself.
Hi Jerry, I was just curious about using paint stripper and posted here asking why they can not be used. Well, after watching further you answered my question on that subject so I had to edit this note! lol. Guess I should wait until I watch the entire video before asking anything in the future. Lesson learned! lol
BTDT, see something, ask a question and then 2 minutes later he answers the question, in the video.
DUH! 🤐🙄🙄😳
Hey Jerry. The crack that showed up at approximately 38:00 is exactly why I never wet sand wood with water. Water gets in the crack or pin hole in the finish, raises the grain, and you've got a heck of a problem. FYI, the furniture plants in NC would use the yuckiest used motor oil you could imagine. After several sanding stations, somebody at the end had the privilege of cleaning it all off.
You might get a smoother coat using lacquer if after you spray with lacquer, you spray with 4 parts lacquer thinner to one part lacquer. It melts the lacquer and helps get rid of orange peel and smooths out the finish better.
MR, Rosa;; Thank You so Much For Sharing Your Years Of Experiance In The Rebuilding Process;; It Is priceless;
I’m curious why you didn’t remove the pickguard?
Ahh.. disregard my last.
I see you finally did use tru-oil on it.
Good on ya.
Keep up the stellar work, my friend.
Since shellac comes off with denatured alcohol, you could try just wiping it back down with alcohol. Also older shellac not only takes longer to cure but does not cure to as hard a film. This might explain the gumming up on the sandpaper.
Not sure why your shellac was not clear in your little bottle. Other than being amber in color, shellac should be clear. Yours was oddly milky looking.
Some people mention using fine sand paper while the shellac is wet to help fill pores.
You need to use a Sanding Block when you are sanding.!
Have you tried using a brush on resin,, varnish,,,it applies alot thicker so you won't sand threw,it also fills in the wood grain faster and iys not waxy when it drys
I would also worry about the chemicals getting into joints and remain there to reek havoc later on.
I have used an oil based stain and oil based high gloss polyurethane and it worked quite well with only 4 or 5 coats ! If you use a stripper then use fine stell wool and water to clean away any stripper residue and leave it dry overnight and then stain etc ! You might be sanding too much! I use open coat 1200 grit they use in body shops and it works for me !
Some folks just love to throw those axes at you Jerry. Pay no attention to them, they are not working on instruments or have a youtube channel. They think they can do better, but if that was the case, why are they watching? I have to say that you did back up and punt, and I think the lacquer was coming out fine, it was just going to take many more coats. Also you do not give up, you wasn't happy so you tried something different. I said it before, you are the best thing that happened to that instrument, regardless of the smoke some of these folks are blowing. I bet it turns out beautiful in the end, and you will have a very happy customer.
I don't mean any disrespect to him, but after watching many of his videos, I don't think he has the kind of expertise in touching up nor completely refinishing a guitar in these kinds of finishes to get the results he's after.
@@400_billion_suns He will tell you he is not the best, but he does pretty dang good.
I make small wood projects and I always dread the finish. I don't care so much if a guitar is pretty but I appreciate a good sound and playability.
Ill bet you could find some of that sandpaper in finer grits around wherever there is auto body repair supplies.
Why not take off the bridge and pickguard before sanding?
Nice work!
You need to use an epoxy grain filler first up , then sand back to wood . Then you can apply multiple coats of lacquer without it “ pulling back” as we say in the furniture business . When it comes to fine finishes, the best people to ask are automotive car painters
You should have used wood filler. And I would recommend wet sanding your sandpaper does not clog up or ball up. Put a little bit of soap in with your water. I've been working on guitars probably as long as you have and I have never dry sanded a guitar. I also wait quite a while before I sand on one at least 10 days to a month. thanks for your video.
I've had good luck with 3M Gold open coat sandpaper and other lubricated stearate papers. the open coat resists clogging much.
Wondering if "Dragonskin" would work for the rough sanding. It is a Red Devil product and made to allow the particles to escape.
I have used Solarez products to excellent effect. First the sealer, then the top coats. It’s UV cured. Usually 3 coats then sand back, then another 3. It flows nicely to provide a mirror finish. It’s very hard and seems to provide a nice tone on acoustics and is just about indestructible. Strengthens the guitar no end. Try it on something of low value first but I’ve never found anything that gives such a nice strong finish with a mirror surface. Oh, stain goes on first. Some manufacturers use it. I find the finish is mirror smooth and the resulting sound of the guitar benefits from its glass hard finish.
Have you ever tried the "french polishing" technique with shelack?
C'mon Jerry lol. Everyone has days and projects like this!! Cheer up!! (I know this is after the fact). Lacquer is the pickiest of finishes as to what is underneath it. It reacts with everything (ask me how I know lol). But when it goes on nice, it's like glass. And you can touch it up for the rest of your life (you can burn into it), unlike urethane that basically dries like a hard plastic and nothing penetrates it. It's just a bad day. Cheer up!! I'm sure you've heard it a million times, but I agree with your viewers when they say it is way better to sand it wet (with soap). Once you get those crystal buildups (you showed them in the video), akll you're doing is scratching the finish. I remember when 600 came out and boy that was something. And then 1000, wow. Ten hours less on the buffer. then 1200, then 1500. That saved a lot of time (think about sanding a Rolls or Bentley from the 50's or 60's). I know they go way up there now, at least to 30k. At a certain point, it's the law of diminishing returns (like you say). The only use I ever found for grit that high is to not buff it after (no swirl marks from the buffer).
Hey Jerry.. quite the struggle on this one for sure. Just a suggestion.. I’ve had better luck using 0000 steel wool over sandpaper. It appears to smooth and level faster too.. so it reduces the number of coats. At least that’s what’s worked for me. At first I didn’t think it would work.. but once I got the dull look after basically buffing the tru-oil with the steel wool.. I also seemed to have gotten there faster using the Tru oil filler (about 3 coats) and then Tru oil finish oil and it comes out slicker than snot on a porch rail.
Hope that helps for next time..
Jerry I knew that wet dry sandpaper was going to do that. I used to have to sand Bread Delivery trucks so my Boss man could paint them and we tried that wet dry sand paper and it wouldnt even work good for sanding aluminum truck bodies. Needless to say we went back to the 3M dry sand paper and it works one hundred percent better
Check out eagle abrasives Super Assilex paper…dry sanding…the best…by far.
After sanding did you decontaminate with mineral spirits or naphta if not that's where the fish eyes come from
Jerry, I think I foresee a new Jerry Rosa song coming out about that brown stain. 😂
Mister Rosa, I'd like to share an experience with you and every other acoustic guitar player. Check this out! Grab a nylon string guitar and tune it well. Then, put your ear on the headstock and strum the first five strings, muting the big E. Let it ring for a few seconds, and you'll hear a very low D bass note as a result of the harmonics. You'd think that the A would be the logical winner in that battle. But no, it's the D, about 2 octaves down which determines the root of that chord. Please try it! It's very cool. And about as amazing as you are, Sir.
The pickguard on my Martin D-18 also curled at the edges. When I asked the luthier about that, he told me that Martin pickguards do often curl, even when they've not been polished.
Yep! That’s just a Martin thing. Nothing to do with any kind of polish.
My neighbor finishes fine, antique furniture and all I have ever seen him use was extra fine grades of steel wool. steel wool gives your nodules a place to go, and the build-up will go away :)
If you do not like using sanding blocks as you state try using a small rubber squeegie that is used to apply thin coats of finish glaze. i have a saying when in doubt, shout out to someone.As long as I have been refinishing guitars I still seek out advise.
As a stair builder I recommend rub on your finishes, French polish style, same amount of time rubbing on endless micro coats instead of sanding.
Jerry try 2 coats nitro cellulls wood grain filler dries clear sands very easy u can spray it deeper the grain use 3 coats
It's not just lacquer on instruments that moves away from the defects. I'm applying urethane with a brush on a table for my daughter and it is doing the same thing.
Have you talked to Klingspor? I know they used to make finer paper that performs like the 400 you're talking about. I used to have some of the 600.
If that was a painted car... I would recommend the 3M Trizact. God Bless.
Is that "Fish Eye" in the lacquer? If so there's an additive for that. I can't tell what that is from the video.
Fisheye eliminator is mineral oil. You can use any kind of oil to counter act fish eyes.
I've been using a couple drops of transmission fluid instead of paying $35.00 for 2 ounces of mineral oil/fish eye eliminator.
And yes that's fish eyes.
Lots of good OCD comments. Very entertaining.
Brush the shellac. Superfine pumice with linseed oil. Rubbed in. Basically a French polishing technique is required.
That Looks Like an auto paint problem called fish eyeing. It comes from car wax. Some people claim silicone. I don't know. But the only way to stop it is to get a good sealer as your first coat. Though that's on metal and old paint. Who knows on wood.
I have a question; .... I have a cheap, not pricey acoustic cut-away I want to work on for practise. The neck is pulling away at the boot, so it needs a proper neck reset. Inside it looks sound and in good condition, and surface outside is flat but on the outside, it has a chipped factory finish in many places all over the body. It's the painted surface only that is chipped. I would like to remove all the factory black hard-shell painted finish that's now on it and redo it with a possible dark stained wood grain finish. I want to remove the old paint completely from the body and expose the nice wood grain under that old paint finish. I want to get the old finish completely off without removing lots of the wood surface of the main body by the use of sanding. Would carefully using paint remover ruin the wood's grain finish under the old painted finish if I use it or should I just remove the painted finish using 400 grit paper on an orbital hand sander and take my chances on not removing too much of the surface wood under that old black pained surface? Mind you, it's not an expensive guitar by any means. The wood grain may not be as good as I am hoping it might be once the old finish is removed. If that's so, I can always totally repaint and refinish the guitar like it once was, but I like full wood grain surface to show out on a guitar if that's possible. What would you suggest I do in this matter to get the old finish completely off. The neck will be removed (for a neck reset), and refinished as well, and re attached once new finish has been put on the main body. I'm just hoping that Paint remover won't damage the looks of the wood grain under the old finish if I use it. Like to hear from you about it. Any videos showing issues like this?
What kind of varnish are you gonna use Jerry 🤔 ?Dont let that thing get the best of ya !
Jerry uses Tru-Oil, from Birchwood Casey.
Oh now he said the glue can read your mind, the stain gasses are kicking 😅😂😂😂😂😅
Did you sand between the coats of Shellac? It looked like you sprayed three coats without sanding unless you did it off camera?
I liked your song.
Do you have an opinion on denatured alcohol and a rubbing pad, like your doing a french polish? Seems like it would work well??
Thank You.
I'll preface this with acknowledging my lack of sandpaper experience, but it seems that the sandpaper you like is Aluminum Oxide and the sandpaper you don't like is Silicon Carbide. Have you checked online for 600 grit Aluminum Carbide sandpaper? There's some available from AA Abrasives. I don't know anything about the company, but it's a start.
It looks as though the stain was applied with a wet rag in spots and a dryer rag in others. The light and dark areas either indicate this.
As to sandpaper and your problems: Loading, as you call it, is the result of a "closed coat" paper as opposed to "open coat" which both refer to the placement of the media and the angularity as it presents outward. Further you do not offer what type of media is being used, which the manufacturer would indicate on the back of the paper or in their catalog. As to the media: there are many choices, each has properties which behave in specific ways. Harder media breaks down slower, yet cuts faster. Facing refers to the media. Learn more about sandpaper and your options increase: three components are present in sandpaper, 1) the backing material, 2) the binder which holds the media and attaches to the backing, 3) the media, silicone carbide, aluminum oxide, zirconia, etc. I also suggest your painting is the first place you should consider for that sets up the sanding requirements. I noticed your spraying...can an old dog learn new tricks? To bad you are finished with this type of work, I could have offered to teach you some "new tricks of the trade" for a reasonable amount of money as a consultant.
I noticed that your man did not prime the headstock before he painted it and that you didn't mention using a lacquer sanding sealer before applying your finish. Why don't you use primers and sealers? The stain not being sealed prior to finishing may be why your sandpapers are building up on you.
Are you worried about the removal of material via the random orbital sander? I know many luthiers recommend chemical stripping on the bare wood and then using a scraper to get up close to the binding. Random orbital sanders seem to always leave little pigtails in the wood
Higher viscosity polymers are created by increasing the polymerization. Making bigger molecules. When it cures, it continues to polymerization, it isn't drying.
2:09 "...it's just a technique thing..." sayeth the guy with a scalpel in one hand and a $5,000 guitar in the other .. Love it... I had no qualms over taking a scalpel to a human to trim the margins of a jagged laceration before stitching it up, but as adventurous as I am doing my own guitar repairs, I draw the line just before the need for a scalpel arises.... These days when someone asks how I can turn a corroded and dinged up piece of stainless steel trim into a perfectly flat, mirror polished surface in an afternoon, my stock line "It's nothing that a 10 year old can't do - with 11 years of experience..."
Maybe the 220 grit was to fine for the job, if the 150 is a better choice to start with on the lacquer finish. The shellac just proved the point, because the 150 got the ball rolling on the finish.... maybe
i bet the new finish would take a blue ribbon at the county fair!
Hi there. That dark stain you used in the back and sides, is water based??