As someone who's been called a fanboy for simply explaining why a criticism is wrong, and refusing to back down when the arguments are poor, this speaks to me.
I think the "you can't debunk a review" argument should also be discussed. way too many times have i heard reviewers say stuff like this. hell i think i remember a youtuber named RSG say in response to his terrible vids on invincible "I am not critiquing invincible i am reviewing it" has if you can't have objective criticisms in reviews.
SEA ngl, I'm recommending this video to the professors at the College I went to film school at. This really needs to be seen by the next generation of Film Makers and Critics. Well done man.
I was able to understand At Worlds End just fine, Pirates team up togther to fight for they're freedom the characters and plots add to the reason set plot happens if you were to cut anything you would miss some of the contexts And the characters we already know were built up for At Worlds End as well and it makes sense for them to fight for the freedom of Pirates they need help from other pirates which also leads to Barbossa needing Jacks help because he is one of the pirate lords! Needless to say I watched the movie when I was 11 years old and got a good understanding on what its about just gotta pay attention and you'll know why these scenes are added until On Stranger Tides pretty much undid the progress of At Worlds End
This is gonna sound cliche but it’s true, we live in the age of easily offended people, people don’t wanna be challenged, they wanted to be babied and validated, that’s why we say “everything is subjective, there’s no right or wrong, it’s just your opinion”. Subjectivity is your enjoyment of something, you can find enjoyment in a bad movie, everyone has those guilty pleasures, but that personal enjoyment doesn’t make the movie objectively good. Media is all about entertainment, you can enjoy what you enjoy regardless of its objective quality, but you still need to understand the facts. I know i’ll be watching Micheal Bays Transformers til the day I die, however, you’ll never hear me make the claim that they are “good” movies, because that is simply not the case.
@@Warren-hy5rm theres quite a few movies that i like in the same way. the meg, dial of destiny etc i just find them enjoyable some times you want to watch a dumb monster movie with extinct sharks having miracously survived unchanged for millions of years
Its the same thing with 'Joker 2019 is a ripoff of other crime movies', its a very disingenuous argument that relies on external knowledge that has nothing to do with the movie itself
I hate when people make those types of arguments. Does it share familiar concepts? Yes. Because they’re part of the same genre. That naturally happens. Why do they happen? Because they work well.
@Knowthename0000 Yup. It’s a lazy form of intellectualism. Because you can say that about almost any work. For example, Dune you could criticize it for being too similar to Lawrence of Arabia. Even though it’s very clear that Frank Hebert took inspiration from that story. Same with Joker with Taxi Driver. A better argument would be saying if that piece did it better than you laid out your arguments why and we can have a discussion there. Specificity and details matter. Also on a side note, your profile is awesome. Last Wish is amazing.
An opinion being invalid and an opinion being valid, just destroys the whole point of an opinion. You can agree or disagree with someone’s opinion and notice the flaws of them, but that doesn’t make it valid or invalid. You’re opinion can be right or wrong. Do you notice the pattern here
Yeah.... haven't even watched the whole video and this goes straight to my favorites!!! YOU SIR ARE A FREAKING LEGEND!!!! So direct, so accurate and you used all the right words without being disrespectful! I am in awe! I just don't know what to say you said everything there needed to be said!
While I agree with your general sentiments towards the subject matter, I really, and I mean really, cannot shake off this weird vibe you ended up showing halfway through the vid (the I'm the best critic, I did it thoroughly, which makes me right and I cannot be questioned, which is the tone you've been giving me, a guy with zero attachment to your videos and first time seeing your content). I just hope you know that you yourself are very much fileable and capable of being called out, no matter how deep the criticism or the calculations (like for example, the Manhattan project, scientists on that project did all sorts of deep form calculations to make their atomic bombs, but that wasn't going to ever stop people calling them monsters, and I don't think you're free from this, just because you do "deeper" levels of criticism). Other than that, good video!, and I'm glad someone actually has the balls to talk about this subject that barely anyone ever wants to bring up.
I’ll openly invite criticism of my stances, rest assured. My point wasn’t that I’m perfect or anything, but the fact that I hold myself to higher standards than most creators, and I hope others hold themselves to some level of standards as well for the sake of inspiring fruitful discussions.
@@TheSEAempire Thank you for acknowledging my vibe from earlier. I just wanted to be sure if it was a one off instance vibe, or something else, but you cleared that up for me!.
I agree. If an opinion is based on false information, then it's no longer an opinion. it's just you being wrong. Otherwise tho i think even the most controversial takes can be opinions, they can be something personal or unique
Finally! Someone can see the merit in Avatar. I'm really tired of the arguments people give as to why its "horrible". Its a GREAT movie and I'm tired of pretending that it's not.
I have a very close friend who i care about to bits, we were talking about into the spider verse and her criticism was "I was watching the whole movie going 'wheres the story?' " That just It was so baffling that i had no response AGHHHH
I think one of the issues is that people tend dicuss art not as a subjective, but objective, while making subjective claims. I believe that we need better was to discuss art. One example i use is how i originally use to discuss shinji from evangelion. I use to called him a bad character becuase of how annoying i feel he is. The mistake i was making it that i was making an objective claim to my subjective opinion of him. The issue i was having was not that shinji was a bad character, but that i personally did not like shinji. So i started to change how i engage with this critisism not by talking about how i can improve it, or how good in an arbitrary metric i can mesure the piece. But what i take away from it.
Yeah that’s been my character arc too. I used to make broad sweeping claims based entirely on subjective thoughts (annoying, funny, boring, fun) rather than anything concrete, but thankfully I got enough pushback until I was forced to confront my own reasoning.
As someone who's always believe that story telling is equally objective as it is subjective, hearing someone else echo the sentiment that "just because you don't like it doesn't mean its bad" and visa versa has gonest been misic to ky ears. Its why when people talk about certain anime like Demon Slayer or Attack on Titan (if someone says the former is a good show and say the latter is a bad show) I automatically have to question their ability to discern what is objectively good and bad writing.
I recently watched the first season of Invincible. I thought it was alright. Didn’t love it or hate it, but it was pretty over hyped. Seemed like a pretty standard high school superhero story just with more gore. If I had to express any major issues I had, one of them would be how poorly the romantic relationships are written. Like the one between the main character and the non super powered girl. She gets upset with him even though she says she figured it out before he decided to reveal who he was and didn’t tell him, but still acts upset with him for some reason. Then you have the girl in pink and knock-off Gambit. They just didn’t display much chemistry when they were on screen together. Another gripe I have is that the big twist at the end was underwhelming.
I had a conversation about this a few days ago, Its perfectly fine to have an opinion of your own but it isn't immune to criticism by nature of its being an opinion. You can absolutely challenge an opinion by questioning the reasoning behind that opinion
True, we understand. But don’t worry, some of the opinions could be wrong, but some did it rightfully. Don’t worry, Sometimes movies and tv shows being hated being loved by someone is somewhat understandable at times like Stars Wars, Cars franchise like Cars 2 and Cars 3, Planes, Turbo, Alvin and The Chipmunks. But don’t worry, we all know is tricky sometimes but still finding sometimes opinions could fix the movie problems. Tell me, if I’m right and wrong? I’m sorry.
Another great video as usual. Keep up the amazing work. I say a lot of the invalid opinions come from those who don’t want to be specific and clear when it comes to their criticisms or just bad reasoning. For the former, you need to quantify your reasonings why something is bad. For example, The Last Jedi sucks because hyperspace ramming is a thing that completely neutered space combat and isn’t well explained. And took episode nine to do a retcon( which is funnier because it made that scene worse). That I can easily back. Whereas if someone said TLJ sucked because it says capitalism is bad or too many women in it is stupid. Having a movie comment on a political or social aspect isn’t bad provided, it’s leveraged well in the story. Case in point, the scene where Finn sees DJ selling ships to both sides could have been a good moment for him to reflect on his own choices and role of the galaxy. But nope; it’s just dropped there and he still chooses the resistance. We don’t even get a reason or exploration. It just happens. That’s the kind of lazy BS that leads to the quality of art declining. Know what you’re talking about. If you don’t like a movie? Fair enough. But don’t make statements like a movie is good or bad if you cannot back it up.
On James Cameron's Avatar: The channel Pilgrims Pass has a video comparing it to Princess Mononoke and which one is the better environmentalist story. Spoilers: He prefers Princess Mononoke.
I mean if he prefers it, fair enough. I haven’t seen Princess Mononoke so I can’t make any claims of quality, but I can at least say Avatar is still pretty excellent.
@@TheSEAempireThe people trash on the Avatar movies because they are disappointed by James Cameron that he could have done better. Terminator 1, 2, Aliens worked because the story was the main focus and special effects are tools in the story. It is the opposite for the Avatar movies. The focus of the Avatar were special effects and the story was just a tool for the special effects. Terminator and Aliens had deeper themes and more complex characters. While everything in Avatar is just black and white. I think people are just disappointed in James Cameron fails to recapture the same kind of sci-fi appeal he did with the first two Terminators and Aliens.
Does it need to be more complex? Again, nothing in inherently better if it’s more complex/original. It’s about execution, and Avatar is borderline flawless in narrative execution.
Nope, you're just a hater who can't stand it when other ppl have different opinions. I will now proceed to cope and seethe over you having different opinions than mine. Oh, and um um uhhh you just hate fun. I win. Goodbye.
(8:34) In what way can filmmakers not predict what tropes are going to be recognized by audience members? Filmmakers should be familiar with the history of film and tropes that have been overdone. That's not to say that you can't pay homage to past films, but there's a difference between paying homage and just doing tropes at face value. To be clear, I've only seen Avatar once. So, I can't really speak on that, but are we not allowed to criticize Marvel for recycling the same super hero tropes over and over again? Is Gus Van Sant's shot for shot remake of Psycho "objectively" as good as the original? I agree that an original plot isn't always good (and I generally agree with the point of the video), but context matters.
In what way can somebody measure the usage of a trope? Measurability is the cornerstone of objectivity. Some tropes are exclusively Western in nature, some are byproducts of certain types of stories, some are intentionally placed, and some are subverted. People who watch more films will naturally recognize tropes more frequently, so would that be a fault of the filmmakers if they don’t expect their audience to watch hundreds of films a year? With Marvel I can get it, since it’s all the same studio that insist on having their films share a continuity, but even then I wouldn’t make any claims of quality based on said tropes.
@@TheSEAempire I mean theoretically you could measure the usage of a trope if you really wanted to, but I don't think it has to be that exhaustive. I think it's more about knowing your audience. To keep going with the Marvel example, it's reasonable to assume that their fans have seen the previous Marvel installments. So, I think it's totally valid for fans to ask for something different when they feel like they are seeing the same tropes over and over again. Again, not that originality is always better, but tropes can be overdone especially if they are done a lot in quick succession (and in the same franchise).
Depends on the situation. Everything I discussed in this video can apply to much larger concepts like politics or social issues, but I only discussed it from the angle of film criticism since that’s an area I have more experience in. And even then, for people who *do* value conversations of filmmaking, it’s a bit of a big deal to many of us.
I dont dislike Avatar because its "problematic" I dislike it because I find it boring, forgettable and cliche with the majority of the interesting lore of the world never making it into the actual movies. Whenever I talk to people irl about the movie these seem to be their main cricisms as well. I unironically cannot remember a single thing about that movie outside of the dragon things. Whenever someone Ive spoken to has brought up its similarity to Dances with Wolves or Pocahontas its not because its offensive, its because these are examples of stories that are very similar as a way of supporting the argument that Avatar is a very surface level criticism of colonialism that has nothing new to say. Its been done before, Avatar just has prettier graphics. However, I dont think Avatar is a bad movie. I base whether a movie is good or not on whether it achieved what it set out to achieve. Avatar set out to have a simple story with a simple message that has been done before but is still a valid message. In that I think avatar is a good movie, just not one I enjoy.
And does that make it of lesser quality? You personally, along with others, don't remember character names and find it cliche. That is valid. But I draw the line when we attribute entirely subjective phenomenon as problems with a film. And even if it's been done before, does it matter? Like if you showed Avatar to someone who hasn't seen Dances with Wolves or Pocahontas, they wouldn't have the same experience you just described, so it's not much of an argument outside of the individual. And I think the Dances with Wolves argument is cringe, my buddy made a great video explaining why it's not accurate: ruclips.net/video/W8sgI3bK0Ag/видео.htmlsi=dJai3VILSScOkDLH
@@TheSEAempireI probably am not going to watch that video. Why do you think pointing out the fact that Avatar is a cliche story and using Dances with Wolves as an example of another story with said clichés in it is cringe?
Because it ignores the nuances between each story. Aside from the obvious differences in setting, genre, and worldbuilding rules, there are fundamental differences in characterization that don’t fit the argument of “it’s just like Dances with Wolves”. It’s on a level that, if applied consistently with other films, would make “Joker is just Taxi Driver”, “Dune is just Star Wars”, and “Taken is just Finding Nemo” valid arguments. They have shared elements, as all stories made by humans do. Again if we show Avatar to people who haven’t seen Pocahontas or Dances with Wolves, the experience you had wouldn’t be applicable to that person.
Without the 3D nobody would watch the Avatar movies, they’re not bad they’re just very basic and hollow and At Worlds End made Davy Jones less cool and threatening than he was in Dead Mans Chest
“Basic and hollow” are interesting ways of saying focused on what matters most. “Leas cool and threatening” was the point. Objectively speaking he’s a pathetic character, not supposed to be a badass or anything. He’s a heartbroken old man who took his rage out on the world. If that’s cool to anybody, I fear for them.
I hate Avatar because the soundtrack actively works against the movie's narrative. Example? Final battle. The villains get vocal lines and drums in their music, while the heroes, the Na'vi, this alien species, gets *brass*.
Fellow Sideways fan? I don’t think it’s very fair to disregard an *entire* film on the basis of a missed opportunity of fictional ethnomusicology, however. I think the video breaking down how the soundtrack is “ironic” is great, but looking at an ENTIRE film as bad because one element of the film isn’t even poorly done, just being a bit disappointing if you know the full meta-context, is a bit unfair. Like most people would hear the music and think it’s neat, and given how it’s hard to measure the objective merrits of music compared to something far more provable like narrative storytelling, I don’t think it’s a good metric of quality.
@@TheSEAempire Legit, never liked the movie even before I'd seen that video, I just used it as an example of one of my many issues. The point I was getting at was, I think the movie has a lot of missed opportunities to be great, but to me feels like they played a lot of it safe. Characterization, world design, music, etc. "Unobtanium" is a decently funny joke if you know it's origin, but I didn't when I saw the movie, and it just sounded lazy. Then the villains feel like generic, militaristic baddies. It's a visual beauty, I'll give it that, and the story is easy to follow, but it didn't engage me. It's not a film I have any interest in revisiting. If someone likes it, though, good for them. I'm glad they see something in it that I couldn't.
Are you attributing quality with complexity? Because that is a bit of a fallacy. It’s a great film because it nearly flawlessly executes setups and payoffs with maximum efficiency, only including what’s NEEDED for the story to work, not including any random bloat for the sake of it. Unobtanium is no different than Einsteinium, Californium, or any other metals discovered in the last century. If we found a metal that was nigh-unobtainable, scientists would absolutely name it something like unobtainium. That’s the most realistic name they could have gone with. And why would the villains need to be more complex than they are? Again, don’t criticize things on the basis of simplicity, that mindset falls apart when thought about for too long. The whole thesis of this video: if you don’t enjoy it, fair enough. But to make ANY claims about it that don’t hold up is not acceptable. There is nothing wrong with not being engaged, but to say it’s any form of problem that an element has a name that fits the modern naming conventions of rare-earth metals, or that the bad guys are one-dimensional when the context which the story is set only really allows for one-dimension is pretty unfair.
@@TheSEAempire I'm not saying it's bad, just... didn't meet my personal standards. For something that got hyped up as being so amazing, when I actually saw it, it felt very underwhelming. I guess that's where it is, my expectations got raised so high by hype that the movie wasn't even made to meet.
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
As someone who's been called a fanboy for simply explaining why a criticism is wrong, and refusing to back down when the arguments are poor, this speaks to me.
I think the "you can't debunk a review" argument should also be discussed. way too many times have i heard reviewers say stuff like this. hell i think i remember a youtuber named RSG say in response to his terrible vids on invincible "I am not critiquing invincible i am reviewing it" has if you can't have objective criticisms in reviews.
You hit the nail on the head. If someone makes an objective claim, it can be debunked.
I love cold hard truth videos that call out flawed ways of critical thinking.
SEA ngl, I'm recommending this video to the professors at the College I went to film school at. This really needs to be seen by the next generation of Film Makers and Critics. Well done man.
Thanks!
I was able to understand At Worlds End just fine, Pirates team up togther to fight for they're freedom the characters and plots add to the reason set plot happens if you were to cut anything you would miss some of the contexts
And the characters we already know were built up for At Worlds End as well and it makes sense for them to fight for the freedom of Pirates they need help from other pirates which also leads to Barbossa needing Jacks help because he is one of the pirate lords!
Needless to say I watched the movie when I was 11 years old and got a good understanding on what its about just gotta pay attention and you'll know why these scenes are added until On Stranger Tides pretty much undid the progress of At Worlds End
*their freedom
Bro fell off
So true 😔
This is gonna sound cliche but it’s true, we live in the age of easily offended people, people don’t wanna be challenged, they wanted to be babied and validated, that’s why we say “everything is subjective, there’s no right or wrong, it’s just your opinion”. Subjectivity is your enjoyment of something, you can find enjoyment in a bad movie, everyone has those guilty pleasures, but that personal enjoyment doesn’t make the movie objectively good. Media is all about entertainment, you can enjoy what you enjoy regardless of its objective quality, but you still need to understand the facts. I know i’ll be watching Micheal Bays Transformers til the day I die, however, you’ll never hear me make the claim that they are “good” movies, because that is simply not the case.
💯
Yeah transformers is one of my favorite movies but it is flawed
@@Warren-hy5rm theres quite a few movies that i like in the same way. the meg, dial of destiny etc i just find them enjoyable some times you want to watch a dumb monster movie with extinct sharks having miracously survived unchanged for millions of years
That's just your opinion though and in my opinion our opinions can be different and that's ok
Opinionception
@@TheSEAempire🤓🤓🤓
Opinions are like…….well………you know lol.
Its the same thing with 'Joker 2019 is a ripoff of other crime movies', its a very disingenuous argument that relies on external knowledge that has nothing to do with the movie itself
I hate when people make those types of arguments. Does it share familiar concepts? Yes. Because they’re part of the same genre. That naturally happens. Why do they happen? Because they work well.
@Knowthename0000 Yup. It’s a lazy form of intellectualism. Because you can say that about almost any work. For example, Dune you could criticize it for being too similar to Lawrence of Arabia. Even though it’s very clear that Frank Hebert took inspiration from that story. Same with Joker with Taxi Driver.
A better argument would be saying if that piece did it better than you laid out your arguments why and we can have a discussion there. Specificity and details matter.
Also on a side note, your profile is awesome. Last Wish is amazing.
An opinion being invalid and an opinion being valid, just destroys the whole point of an opinion. You can agree or disagree with someone’s opinion and notice the flaws of them, but that doesn’t make it valid or invalid. You’re opinion can be right or wrong. Do you notice the pattern here
And what if an opinion is entirely predicated on falsehoods?
Yeah.... haven't even watched the whole video and this goes straight to my favorites!!!
YOU SIR ARE A FREAKING LEGEND!!!!
So direct, so accurate and you used all the right words without being disrespectful! I am in awe!
I just don't know what to say you said everything there needed to be said!
While I agree with your general sentiments towards the subject matter, I really, and I mean really, cannot shake off this weird vibe you ended up showing halfway through the vid (the I'm the best critic, I did it thoroughly, which makes me right and I cannot be questioned, which is the tone you've been giving me, a guy with zero attachment to your videos and first time seeing your content).
I just hope you know that you yourself are very much fileable and capable of being called out, no matter how deep the criticism or the calculations (like for example, the Manhattan project, scientists on that project did all sorts of deep form calculations to make their atomic bombs, but that wasn't going to ever stop people calling them monsters, and I don't think you're free from this, just because you do "deeper" levels of criticism).
Other than that, good video!, and I'm glad someone actually has the balls to talk about this subject that barely anyone ever wants to bring up.
I’ll openly invite criticism of my stances, rest assured. My point wasn’t that I’m perfect or anything, but the fact that I hold myself to higher standards than most creators, and I hope others hold themselves to some level of standards as well for the sake of inspiring fruitful discussions.
@@TheSEAempire Thank you for acknowledging my vibe from earlier. I just wanted to be sure if it was a one off instance vibe, or something else, but you cleared that up for me!.
🫡
I agree. If an opinion is based on false information, then it's no longer an opinion. it's just you being wrong. Otherwise tho i think even the most controversial takes can be opinions, they can be something personal or unique
Finally! Someone can see the merit in Avatar. I'm really tired of the arguments people give as to why its "horrible". Its a GREAT movie and I'm tired of pretending that it's not.
I have a very close friend who i care about to bits, we were talking about into the spider verse and her criticism was "I was watching the whole movie going 'wheres the story?' "
That just
It was so baffling that i had no response AGHHHH
It’s shit like that which drives me up the wall. Like… you can’t just say shit and expect everybody respects it when it doesn’t make any sense 💀
I think one of the issues is that people tend dicuss art not as a subjective, but objective, while making subjective claims. I believe that we need better was to discuss art. One example i use is how i originally use to discuss shinji from evangelion. I use to called him a bad character becuase of how annoying i feel he is. The mistake i was making it that i was making an objective claim to my subjective opinion of him. The issue i was having was not that shinji was a bad character, but that i personally did not like shinji. So i started to change how i engage with this critisism not by talking about how i can improve it, or how good in an arbitrary metric i can mesure the piece. But what i take away from it.
Yeah that’s been my character arc too. I used to make broad sweeping claims based entirely on subjective thoughts (annoying, funny, boring, fun) rather than anything concrete, but thankfully I got enough pushback until I was forced to confront my own reasoning.
I think the bigger point is the difference between a lazy bad faith review is different to an ill informed badly made review
True
I think we all agree Shrek is cinema's greatest achievement.
This is not opinion, it is objective fact
@@SM-th7pw Shrek brings everyone together.
So true
@@callmejacob3234 If you mean it’s impact on meme culture I guess you have a point
@@Jollyjose251 Shrek is the key to world peace.
Yeah, well, that's just like, your opinion, man.
As someone who's always believe that story telling is equally objective as it is subjective, hearing someone else echo the sentiment that "just because you don't like it doesn't mean its bad" and visa versa has gonest been misic to ky ears. Its why when people talk about certain anime like Demon Slayer or Attack on Titan (if someone says the former is a good show and say the latter is a bad show) I automatically have to question their ability to discern what is objectively good and bad writing.
You, sir, are the type of person who redeems my hope in humanity
I recently watched the first season of Invincible. I thought it was alright. Didn’t love it or hate it, but it was pretty over hyped. Seemed like a pretty standard high school superhero story just with more gore.
If I had to express any major issues I had, one of them would be how poorly the romantic relationships are written. Like the one between the main character and the non super powered girl. She gets upset with him even though she says she figured it out before he decided to reveal who he was and didn’t tell him, but still acts upset with him for some reason.
Then you have the girl in pink and knock-off Gambit. They just didn’t display much chemistry when they were on screen together.
Another gripe I have is that the big twist at the end was underwhelming.
I had a conversation about this a few days ago, Its perfectly fine to have an opinion of your own but it isn't immune to criticism by nature of its being an opinion. You can absolutely challenge an opinion by questioning the reasoning behind that opinion
True, we understand. But don’t worry, some of the opinions could be wrong, but some did it rightfully. Don’t worry, Sometimes movies and tv shows being hated being loved by someone is somewhat understandable at times like Stars Wars, Cars franchise like Cars 2 and Cars 3, Planes, Turbo, Alvin and The Chipmunks. But don’t worry, we all know is tricky sometimes but still finding sometimes opinions could fix the movie problems. Tell me, if I’m right and wrong? I’m sorry.
I feel like the word "opinion" doesn't even sound like a word anymore
True but that’s just my opinion
💀
Another great video as usual. Keep up the amazing work. I say a lot of the invalid opinions come from those who don’t want to be specific and clear when it comes to their criticisms or just bad reasoning. For the former, you need to quantify your reasonings why something is bad. For example, The Last Jedi sucks because hyperspace ramming is a thing that completely neutered space combat and isn’t well explained. And took episode nine to do a retcon( which is funnier because it made that scene worse). That I can easily back. Whereas if someone said TLJ sucked because it says capitalism is bad or too many women in it is stupid. Having a movie comment on a political or social aspect isn’t bad provided, it’s leveraged well in the story. Case in point, the scene where Finn sees DJ selling ships to both sides could have been a good moment for him to reflect on his own choices and role of the galaxy. But nope; it’s just dropped there and he still chooses the resistance. We don’t even get a reason or exploration. It just happens.
That’s the kind of lazy BS that leads to the quality of art declining. Know what you’re talking about. If you don’t like a movie? Fair enough. But don’t make statements like a movie is good or bad if you cannot back it up.
On James Cameron's Avatar: The channel Pilgrims Pass has a video comparing it to Princess Mononoke and which one is the better environmentalist story. Spoilers:
He prefers Princess Mononoke.
I mean if he prefers it, fair enough. I haven’t seen Princess Mononoke so I can’t make any claims of quality, but I can at least say Avatar is still pretty excellent.
@@TheSEAempire It's excellent, I highly recommend.
@@TheSEAempireThe people trash on the Avatar movies because they are disappointed by James Cameron that he could have done better.
Terminator 1, 2, Aliens worked because the story was the main focus and special effects are tools in the story. It is the opposite for the Avatar movies.
The focus of the Avatar were special effects and the story was just a tool for the special effects.
Terminator and Aliens had deeper themes and more complex characters. While everything in Avatar is just black and white.
I think people are just disappointed in James Cameron fails to recapture the same kind of sci-fi appeal he did with the first two Terminators and Aliens.
Does it need to be more complex? Again, nothing in inherently better if it’s more complex/original. It’s about execution, and Avatar is borderline flawless in narrative execution.
Avatar has an infantile view on environmentalism while Princess Mononoke is more grounded and real
From the point of view of skepticism, any opinion is the same, whether they are important or not, is a third matter
The only valid opinions are mine.
All others are wrong because I said so.
So true!
6:26 nice foreshadowing
This makes too much sense so you must be wrong
Well, that’s your opinion man.
B-But if I have to justify my opinions, how can I push out endless amounts of slop content?
So true!
Good video my dude
Nope, you're just a hater who can't stand it when other ppl have different opinions. I will now proceed to cope and seethe over you having different opinions than mine.
Oh, and um um uhhh you just hate fun. I win. Goodbye.
Truth. 😎
@@thejardmantle Cars on the Road is trash btw
Better than Chainsaw Mid@@TK-9851
Not all assertions are well informed. Yet some are. How else could they be valid? ;)
(8:34) In what way can filmmakers not predict what tropes are going to be recognized by audience members? Filmmakers should be familiar with the history of film and tropes that have been overdone. That's not to say that you can't pay homage to past films, but there's a difference between paying homage and just doing tropes at face value. To be clear, I've only seen Avatar once. So, I can't really speak on that, but are we not allowed to criticize Marvel for recycling the same super hero tropes over and over again? Is Gus Van Sant's shot for shot remake of Psycho "objectively" as good as the original? I agree that an original plot isn't always good (and I generally agree with the point of the video), but context matters.
In what way can somebody measure the usage of a trope? Measurability is the cornerstone of objectivity. Some tropes are exclusively Western in nature, some are byproducts of certain types of stories, some are intentionally placed, and some are subverted. People who watch more films will naturally recognize tropes more frequently, so would that be a fault of the filmmakers if they don’t expect their audience to watch hundreds of films a year? With Marvel I can get it, since it’s all the same studio that insist on having their films share a continuity, but even then I wouldn’t make any claims of quality based on said tropes.
@@TheSEAempire I mean theoretically you could measure the usage of a trope if you really wanted to, but I don't think it has to be that exhaustive. I think it's more about knowing your audience. To keep going with the Marvel example, it's reasonable to assume that their fans have seen the previous Marvel installments. So, I think it's totally valid for fans to ask for something different when they feel like they are seeing the same tropes over and over again. Again, not that originality is always better, but tropes can be overdone especially if they are done a lot in quick succession (and in the same franchise).
Fair enough
@@TheSEAempire Always funny to dunk on Red Letter Media and Nostalgia Critic though
While I can understand your points, I personally just don't see it as a big deal.
Depends on the situation. Everything I discussed in this video can apply to much larger concepts like politics or social issues, but I only discussed it from the angle of film criticism since that’s an area I have more experience in. And even then, for people who *do* value conversations of filmmaking, it’s a bit of a big deal to many of us.
I dont dislike Avatar because its "problematic" I dislike it because I find it boring, forgettable and cliche with the majority of the interesting lore of the world never making it into the actual movies. Whenever I talk to people irl about the movie these seem to be their main cricisms as well. I unironically cannot remember a single thing about that movie outside of the dragon things. Whenever someone Ive spoken to has brought up its similarity to Dances with Wolves or Pocahontas its not because its offensive, its because these are examples of stories that are very similar as a way of supporting the argument that Avatar is a very surface level criticism of colonialism that has nothing new to say. Its been done before, Avatar just has prettier graphics.
However, I dont think Avatar is a bad movie. I base whether a movie is good or not on whether it achieved what it set out to achieve. Avatar set out to have a simple story with a simple message that has been done before but is still a valid message. In that I think avatar is a good movie, just not one I enjoy.
And does that make it of lesser quality? You personally, along with others, don't remember character names and find it cliche. That is valid. But I draw the line when we attribute entirely subjective phenomenon as problems with a film. And even if it's been done before, does it matter? Like if you showed Avatar to someone who hasn't seen Dances with Wolves or Pocahontas, they wouldn't have the same experience you just described, so it's not much of an argument outside of the individual. And I think the Dances with Wolves argument is cringe, my buddy made a great video explaining why it's not accurate: ruclips.net/video/W8sgI3bK0Ag/видео.htmlsi=dJai3VILSScOkDLH
@@TheSEAempireplease read the edit. I never said that Avatar was a bad movie. I said that I dislike it.
Fair enough, I dig it
@@TheSEAempireI probably am not going to watch that video. Why do you think pointing out the fact that Avatar is a cliche story and using Dances with Wolves as an example of another story with said clichés in it is cringe?
Because it ignores the nuances between each story. Aside from the obvious differences in setting, genre, and worldbuilding rules, there are fundamental differences in characterization that don’t fit the argument of “it’s just like Dances with Wolves”. It’s on a level that, if applied consistently with other films, would make “Joker is just Taxi Driver”, “Dune is just Star Wars”, and “Taken is just Finding Nemo” valid arguments. They have shared elements, as all stories made by humans do. Again if we show Avatar to people who haven’t seen Pocahontas or Dances with Wolves, the experience you had wouldn’t be applicable to that person.
*dies from peak*
Without the 3D nobody would watch the Avatar movies, they’re not bad they’re just very basic and hollow and At Worlds End made Davy Jones less cool and threatening than he was in Dead Mans Chest
“Basic and hollow” are interesting ways of saying focused on what matters most. “Leas cool and threatening” was the point. Objectively speaking he’s a pathetic character, not supposed to be a badass or anything. He’s a heartbroken old man who took his rage out on the world. If that’s cool to anybody, I fear for them.
Yeah meet me in Shameless Plug
How dare you smhing my smh
Smh
I hate Avatar because the soundtrack actively works against the movie's narrative. Example? Final battle. The villains get vocal lines and drums in their music, while the heroes, the Na'vi, this alien species, gets *brass*.
Fellow Sideways fan?
I don’t think it’s very fair to disregard an *entire* film on the basis of a missed opportunity of fictional ethnomusicology, however. I think the video breaking down how the soundtrack is “ironic” is great, but looking at an ENTIRE film as bad because one element of the film isn’t even poorly done, just being a bit disappointing if you know the full meta-context, is a bit unfair. Like most people would hear the music and think it’s neat, and given how it’s hard to measure the objective merrits of music compared to something far more provable like narrative storytelling, I don’t think it’s a good metric of quality.
@@TheSEAempire Legit, never liked the movie even before I'd seen that video, I just used it as an example of one of my many issues. The point I was getting at was, I think the movie has a lot of missed opportunities to be great, but to me feels like they played a lot of it safe. Characterization, world design, music, etc. "Unobtanium" is a decently funny joke if you know it's origin, but I didn't when I saw the movie, and it just sounded lazy. Then the villains feel like generic, militaristic baddies.
It's a visual beauty, I'll give it that, and the story is easy to follow, but it didn't engage me. It's not a film I have any interest in revisiting.
If someone likes it, though, good for them. I'm glad they see something in it that I couldn't.
Are you attributing quality with complexity? Because that is a bit of a fallacy. It’s a great film because it nearly flawlessly executes setups and payoffs with maximum efficiency, only including what’s NEEDED for the story to work, not including any random bloat for the sake of it.
Unobtanium is no different than Einsteinium, Californium, or any other metals discovered in the last century. If we found a metal that was nigh-unobtainable, scientists would absolutely name it something like unobtainium. That’s the most realistic name they could have gone with.
And why would the villains need to be more complex than they are? Again, don’t criticize things on the basis of simplicity, that mindset falls apart when thought about for too long.
The whole thesis of this video: if you don’t enjoy it, fair enough. But to make ANY claims about it that don’t hold up is not acceptable. There is nothing wrong with not being engaged, but to say it’s any form of problem that an element has a name that fits the modern naming conventions of rare-earth metals, or that the bad guys are one-dimensional when the context which the story is set only really allows for one-dimension is pretty unfair.
@@TheSEAempire I'm not saying it's bad, just... didn't meet my personal standards.
For something that got hyped up as being so amazing, when I actually saw it, it felt very underwhelming.
I guess that's where it is, my expectations got raised so high by hype that the movie wasn't even made to meet.
Fair
👍
I don't hate Avatar.
Based
Wow this video is bad just 60 seconds in. Change the title of the video to match the thumbnail
Nah.