WHERE does the LUT go?

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  • Опубликовано: 20 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 70

  • @iamericlenz
    @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +5

    On creative LUTs: In this video, we talked about colour space transformation LUTs. If you use a creative LUT that requires rec709, the creative LUT goes *after* the colour space transformation LUT.
    If your creative LUT has a built-in colour space transformation (e.g. EOS Alpha LUTs, Phantom LUTs, etc.) you can treat it as discussed in the video.

  • @dylanjohndickerson
    @dylanjohndickerson 4 месяца назад +3

    Great explanation, Eric! I don't think it is so definitive however and I say this in a friendly discourse way of course 😊 I do agree with you that making global exposure adjustments, color balance adjustments, perhaps a broad contrast adjustment, or broad color pushes for a grade are great to make before the input LUT, as you have the wider color gamut and tonal range of the LOG footage to work with, but because the input LUT is converting your image to a standardized and more predictable color space, and the same color space that you'll be exporting out to, users should find that more precise and fine tuned adjustments are best made after the input LUT.
    I've also seen tests and done some tests showing that stretching the luma values of your source image before the input LUT is applied, alters the brightness of your colors which happens to alter the appearance of the hue of your colors (in an incorrect way) after the input LUT is applied. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I'll send you some tests in our Discord as well.
    The other downside of making all adjustments before in my opinion is that your scopes are rendered pretty useless (they're set for Rec 709). For example, trying to add a precise amount of contrast with your wheels (placed before the input LUT) by eyeing your Luma waveform will result in you likely erasing detail in your image or not expanding your shot's dynamic range enough. If you push your highlights up and shadows down a whole bunch, the Luma waveform will show that your blacks are not being crushed and that you’re not blowing out your highlights, when you certainly are. In that way, users can erase detail much easier, unless they have a false color tool to use instead (which you do and I highly suggest people pick it up!). The same applies for the vectorscope. Your colors can clip and your vectorscope will not show you that they're clipping. This also applies for the range check feature in FCP. That's useless with all adjustments before. So instead of a full contrast adjustment before the input LUT, I think a solid result can come from perhaps dialing in some general contrast first, if you're okay with a slight hue shift of your colors, and then fine tuning your contrast after the input LUT since you're working in that more dialed in color space that you'll be exporting out to.
    So basically because the clip was brought into a standardized color space with the input LUT, after the input LUT is an ideal point to fine-tune the look of your shot because you're working within a more restricted and less broad color space. Adjustments made after allow for more granular control over specific colors, highlights, and shadows (since that’s the color space we’re working in and the color space we’re exporting out to), resulting in a more refined look.
    So I do think that you're right, that there is a definitive place for adjustments before, however I also think there is a definitive place for certain adjustments after 😊 I'm a big fan of colorist Waqas Qazi, and he mentioned this in a video in the past; that not all adjustments should come before the Rec 709 conversion. I'll see if I can find the video.

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +2

      Great points Dylan! Thank you for sharing! I don‘t quite understand what you mean regarding the hue brightness. Let‘s discuss that on Discord. As for your other points:
      The scopes reference rec709 that‘s entirely correct. Making adjustments before the LUT makes them somewhat unpredictable because you don‘t know what gets amplified or reduced by the LUT so I can absolutely see your point there. I just became so used to doing everything before the LUT that I have developed a good gut feeling about it. Nevertheless, scopes and waveforms read what‘s going on in the viewer. So I don‘t think either of them become useless. Whether you reduce saturation before or after the LUT, the range check should indicate out of gamut colours regardless.
      As for fine-tuned adjustments, I think if we‘re talking about look-development, I‘d agree 100%. If we‘re talking about secondaries, I‘m a bit on the fence, though. Swinging skin tones around is in my experience a lot more forgiving if done before the LUT. But this might depend on the workflow, too.
      For sure, there are a handful adjustments I do after the conversion as well, but this all falls into the category of “If you 100% know what you’re doing”. So yes, there are exceptions and my wording in the beginning of the video was probably a bit black and white but I really wanted to drive that point home. :D
      Again, thank you for sharing!

    • @dylanjohndickerson
      @dylanjohndickerson 4 месяца назад +1

      @@iamericlenz really appreciate it brother! I agree. Making adjustments before, specifically for skin tones and even just color balancing in general is CRUCIAL. Keep your the great work dude 👊🏼

  • @ae35unit
    @ae35unit 4 месяца назад +2

    Brilliant! You’ve brought such clarity to this, and in a simple way. Thank You!

  • @MikeLang
    @MikeLang 2 месяца назад

    I've been looking for a definitive answer to this! Thank you for explaining it so well!

  • @yuvarajgunasekaran2811
    @yuvarajgunasekaran2811 2 месяца назад

    Your explanation is good to understand about colour space

  • @david243121
    @david243121 4 месяца назад +3

    So what you apply the LUT in the Inspector, under the Camera LUT drop down? It seams as though it acts similarly to your principals: It transforms it to Rec709, but when you adjust the color wheel, it's like adjusting it with the color wheel before the LUT, like in your method, when it's applied as an Effect.
    One reason I really like doing it this way is that the LUT is applied to the preview videos in the Browser, so you can visually see your shots better, converted.

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +2

      Hi David, this is not correct. You're right, the camera LUT is a bit more forgiving but it is processed before the effects in the inspector. In the next two weeks, I'll upload a video specifically on the camera LUT. :)
      My suggestion for the camera LUT is: Have it active as long as you edit so you can view your footage properly, but when you start grading, disable it and use the custom LUT in the inspector to have full control over your signal chain. :)

    • @david243121
      @david243121 4 месяца назад

      @@iamericlenz thanks for the reply. It does not seem destructive, though, from my experience. Even though it technically appears to be applied before your add additional color, grading effects, e.g. color wheels, it seems as though it functions as if it is applying these secondary effects before the camera LUT. Does not align with your findings? I’m curious as to what you found out with this.

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      @david243121 No, the Camera LUT is processed before the other instances. I’ll share everything in an upcoming video. As mentioned before, the built-in LUTs seem to allow for a bit more latitude but if you push it, you’ll find the same clipping limitations.
      But yeah, that’s a topic for an upcoming video. For now, I can only give you my “trust-me-bro” guarantee. :D

    • @david243121
      @david243121 4 месяца назад

      @@iamericlenz looking forward to the video!

  • @MakeSomething
    @MakeSomething 4 месяца назад

    Excellent video! Where in the chain is the LUT if you use the inspector tab in FCP?

    • @MakeSomething
      @MakeSomething 4 месяца назад

      Looks like you answered it in another comment. Thanks!

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      @@MakeSomething Haha yes. :D Dedicated video on that will come shortly. :)

  • @sowza1
    @sowza1 3 часа назад

    Great stuff as always! Just watch what nobody told you about color grading, which led me to rewatch this video again. The one question I have. The last music video I color graded I had the color transform (Custom LUT) on all the individual clips. But the director wanted this specific LUT and I put it on an adjustment layer above all the footage. Is this the correct signal chain for doing so?

  • @massele
    @massele 4 месяца назад

    thank u for this video, just one question, is that a trackpad on your desk? why it’s not the apple one? just asking because i’m looking for a desk setup and i’m in love with my macbook one😊

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      Thank you! It's an Apple Trackpad. Just an old one. :D

  • @patricknikola_
    @patricknikola_ 4 месяца назад

    Really insightful video. Already read your guide but this video is a great addition to that guide. Completely changed my workflow for grading and applying LUTs. Thanks so much!

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      @@patricknikola_ Thank you so much! :)

  • @brianparks1899
    @brianparks1899 9 дней назад

    A big help, thanks! One thing, I can't find the link to "The Basics" guide. Can you point me to it please? Thanks!

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  9 дней назад

      I’m currently reworking it and it’ll be up soon. But you can email me and I can send it to you. info@ericlenz.photography

  • @joshuatimmins2681
    @joshuatimmins2681 4 месяца назад

    Great Video! I have one question that I hope you can answer: If you have a creative LUT that is meant for LOG colour space, does this go before or after the conversion LUT?

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      Thanks! If a LUT is designed to work on log footage, there is no conversion LUT needed because usually, the colour space transformation is built into the LUT. Today, I'll release a video on that topic. So check back in a few hours. :)

  • @ThisisDigitalden
    @ThisisDigitalden 4 месяца назад

    Ohh wow, this is a great explanation and makes it very clear, also making clear the idea of destruction during grading, thanks Eric !

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Glad it was helpful! Thank you! :)

  • @Nath.Heimberg
    @Nath.Heimberg 4 месяца назад

    Oh that was interesting and so helpful! And also a bit painful since i have made quite some mistakes up to now but sometimes i did it right without realizing the difference…
    Thanks man!

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Glad it was helpful! And don’t worry! We learn all the time! :)

  • @EugenBrinzoiu
    @EugenBrinzoiu 4 месяца назад

    That was amazingly well explained. Thank you ❤

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      Glad it was helpful! Thank you! :)

  • @MarsonJack
    @MarsonJack 4 месяца назад

    Great video, Eric! But this totally upends my way of doing things!
    Quick question: let’s say you have a color wheel adjustment, and then a Custom LUT converting to Rec709. When making color wheel adjustments, do you have the Custom LUT applied and active (and being reflected in the viewer and scopes) OR do you make the color wheel adjustments and only then apply the LUT? If the latter, it seems like it would be difficult to do anything with precision. Thanks in advance!

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Thank you! Yes, your first assumption is correct. Have the LUT applied and active, otherwise you would be grading blindly. :)

    • @MarsonJack
      @MarsonJack 4 месяца назад

      @@iamericlenz Thanks for the clarification! 👍

  • @WatchingtheWorldBurning
    @WatchingtheWorldBurning 4 месяца назад

    Excellent information - as ever. I am very much a novice. Can I ask, if you convert to Rec 709 at the end, would you then add any other LUT after that?

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      If you have a LUT for a look, for example, yes, you can put that after the colour space transformation. :)

  • @NeilSMSofNSProductionsFilms
    @NeilSMSofNSProductionsFilms 4 месяца назад

    Thank you. I often do my individual clip colour adjustments to each clip on the timeline but put the Lut in an adjustment layer across all clips allowing me to sample and change luts to suit. Do you see any issue doing it this way?

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Yep, that works out! It’s often my workflow of choice, too! :)

  • @Aukusitino79
    @Aukusitino79 4 месяца назад

    What are your monitor recommendations?

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Tough one. I only every used Apple Displays and the LG Ultrafine since they are the best package in terms of functionality and image quality. Eizo makes really good reference monitors, too, but I haven‘t used them myself. Again, tough question for me because I always look for the best package.
      My next monitor will either be a studio display or a ProDisplay XDR if I can get one used for cheap. But if you‘re more on a budget, I‘d recommend the LG Ultrafine 5k. If you‘re picking that up used, make sure the panel is alright. Some models suffer from nasty image persistence.

  • @OranTeach
    @OranTeach 28 дней назад

    You are an incridibie teach it is just fun and interesting to listen to you,keep on & thank you for this lesson !
    I never knew this was the reason I was doing stuff the way I did on final cut haha but I developed an order in the way I do stuff and now I see that my method was correct because of this haha.

  • @dwoodog
    @dwoodog 4 месяца назад

    so being kind of new to video color grading, I'm trying to think of this as taking a raw photo and turning it in to a jpeg then trying to edit it? Also I wish you would touch on where, if necessary to get a LUT to keep rec 2020, as rec 2020. I'm trying to upload 4k HDR to youtube, but find the color grading (manually) a bit time consuming.

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      In a broader sense your analogy works, yes. As for HDR workflows, I don’t do much HDR myself so I don’t feel qualified to talk about that. I will dive into this but first, I have to get a proper HDR monitor. Then I’ll learn my way around HDR. But if you film in Rec2020 and you deliver in rec2020, there is nothing to be done in terms of colour If You’re shooting log, you still need to conform your footage to your target gamma. :)

  • @Jonathan_Kirsch
    @Jonathan_Kirsch 4 месяца назад

    Great explanation, Eric. Thanks for making it make sense. For me it's just annoying because a Log to Rec709 Custom LUT is the first effect I apply and each additional adjustment/grade I decide to apply gets put at the bottom of the signal chain so I have to go to the inspector and move it above the LUT before I affect it. It's an extra couple mouse clicks that waste time. Time is money. Do you know if there's a way to have those adjustments automatically be placed before the Custom LUT? Or am I doing something wrong? I would think the LUT would have to be the first adjustment you make so you can see the effect of the rest of the adjustments properly. Does that make sense?

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +2

      No, you're doing nothing wrong and you think about that correctly. That's just how it is (unfortunately). If you're using the same camera throughout your project, you could use an adjustment layer, drag it over the entire project and put the LUT on there. That way it stays at the end of your signal chain.
      What you could also do is save an effects preset (blank, with no adjustments made) of a typical signal chain you build and apply that. That saves a lot of time, too!

    • @sowza1
      @sowza1 4 месяца назад +1

      Yes, this is what I do. I have a custom Lut effect with my preferred camera input, then I have a curves correction and a color wheels correction. I save this as a preset for my camera and now with 10.8. I just redid it and have the color wheels and the curves named, saves a lot of time

  • @philvfilms
    @philvfilms 4 месяца назад

    Great stuff, how com me when you try and push the highlights up when you put the colour wheels before the LUT that it does not go to 100 and often squashes

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Because the LUT handles highlight- and shadow-roll-off and clamps any information that wouldn’t fit into rec709. So it lets nothing go >100 and

    • @philvfilms
      @philvfilms 4 месяца назад

      @@iamericlenz thanks. So with the Sony phantom luts is this the same workflow ?

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      @@philvfilms Yep, same thing. :)

    • @philvfilms
      @philvfilms 4 месяца назад

      @@iamericlenz thanks. I’ve done it and notice the extra dynamic range but one thing that I can’t work out is how do you know when the max and minimum are reached

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Pay close attention to the scopes. When pulling back highlights, you'll reach a point where the waveform doesn't expand anymore. That's the point where nothing can be gained anymore. :) Same for the shadows. Try to develop a feeling for this as you go. :)

  • @benjamin.kelley
    @benjamin.kelley 4 месяца назад +1

    I believe in Premiere Pro the lumetri color panel is in the incorrect hierarchy, as adding the CST LUT happens last (even after a creative look LUT), and this is wrong because you want the look to be the absolute last thing that's applied, as the LUT usually destroys information, and you want all the color and light grade-ability you can have under the creative look.

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      Yep, 100%. Earlier this week, I helped a friend who’s editing with Premiere. After testing, I came to the same conclusion. The LUT in the Lumetri panel comes before everything else. You can work around that by using a LUT on an adjustment layer above though. :)

  • @microcreations
    @microcreations 4 месяца назад

    What’s the behavior of the lut if you put it trough the metadata panel?

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      @@microcreations That‘s the right question to ask! :D Please see the pinned comment. I‘ll do a dedicated video on that soon! :)

  • @4dventurers
    @4dventurers 2 месяца назад

    I’ve been running around the internet all day today tumbling down this rabbit hole. Perhaps you can help.
    10bit slog3 footage. In DR you’d do a CST to transform the original to e.g. davinci wide gamut then do the grade then do another CST to convert to rec709 at the end.
    In Final Cut Pro if I want to make the most of HDR footage would you recommend some equivalent signal chain?
    And if I want to export to an HDR format for e.g. an OLED TV then I don’t do that last CST?
    This may all be total nonsense! Help!

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  2 месяца назад

      If I understand you correctly, you got it mostly right. If you want to deliver in HDR, your last CST needs to be set accordingly to HDR delivery.
      In FCP, you don't have a CST. If you want to deliver in Rec709, use an S-Log to Rec709 LUT at the end of your signal chain. Hope that helps. :)

  • @ChrisSpeda
    @ChrisSpeda 4 месяца назад

    Hallo Eric, ich finde Deine Tutorials total cool. Gratuliere!! Eine Frage: kannst Du auch mal ein Tutorial zu Split Toning machen? Liebe Grüsse Chris

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      Dankeschön! Ja, das ist ein Thema für Look-Development. Kommt auch bald, dauert aber noch ein bisschen. :)

  • @seecraig
    @seecraig 4 месяца назад

    This is why adding the camera LUT in the clip metadata view in FCP is a problem. A common mistake is someone does an ETTR and then adds the Camera Lut in the metadata view and now can't pull back the information. I almost wish FCP didn't offer to add the camera LUT there.
    Perhaps the only reason to do this is if the clip is exposed and white-balanced perfectly and you just want to send that off to a client for a quick view.
    And even then you have to go back and remove the LUT in the metadata for all clips before doing the real correction and grade.
    Perhaps you should talk specifically mention the problem with using the metadata view to add LUTS to clips. I'm not sure people are clear about that.

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад +1

      You're absolutely right. A dedicated video on the camera LUT and why one shouldn't use it is in the works. :) I think it'll be up in the next two weeks. :)

    • @Okiyah
      @Okiyah 4 месяца назад

      I think it has its use. When reviewing clips in the browser it gives a better idea of the shots and you can more easily identify problematic exposure/white balance/etc at a glance. And since it always linked to the clip (timeline or browser) and you can activate or deactivate it in batch, its easy to use. I often use it for my WIP in collaborative projects. Definitely not for the final output.

    • @iamericlenz
      @iamericlenz  4 месяца назад

      @@Okiyah Yep. Using it for preview is fine but if you want to grade, remove it and build a proper signal chain. :)

    • @seecraig
      @seecraig 4 месяца назад

      @@Okiyah But you can just as easily see the exposure issues by adding a filter which gives you the immediate ability to make adjustments preceding it.

    • @Okiyah
      @Okiyah 4 месяца назад

      @@seecraig Not in the browser though, and at the editing stage I never make color adjustments.