I was recently alerted (10/3/21) by a kindly contributor in the Comments section of my Website that Triton X-100 has now been banned for use in Europe. Hence I now do *not* recommend Triton X-100 for use in vinyl cleaning. There is talk of a replacement being tagged as a safe alternative. Something called Nereid, which is a cousin of Triton X-100 but without the bad stuff, basically. I'll keep an eye on this contender because it's still in the testing stage, so I hear. When I can, I'll give it a test. You can find more information here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_X-100 Here's a précis of the Triton X-100 issue: “A Triton X-100 degradation product has indeed turned out to be ecotoxic as it possesses hormone-like (estrogeno-mimetic) activity that may act on wildlife.[12] The ECHA finally included the substance group in the Authorisation List (Annex XIV),[13] mandating the pharmaceutical and other industries to replace this detergent by the “sunset date” January 4, 2021, thereby affecting EU manufacturers, importers, and downstream users, as well as non-European manufacturers exporting their products into the EU.”
I understood that I have 20 drops of triton in 2 liters of water but how much of this solution should I add in 6 liters of distilled water in the ultrasonic machine ?????????????
Organic bass, subtle this and that…..oh oh. You know, I hear no differences at all if the groove is clean, so no residues at all, no matter what product I have used. I simply use denaturalised alcohol bought at the chemist, distilled water and some Fairy (or equivalent) dishwasher liquid. Did so for decades and continue to do so. Yes, the trusted Disco Antistat does the trick for me, as I mentioned for decades now. You know, my records are not destroyed by the alcohol at all, just use as little as possible which I do. The Fairy breaks the surface tension and gives the record surface a nice and smooth shine in which the stylus feels at home. No residu ( quite unlike the original Disco Antistat fluid! ) at all. Minimal costs, maximum results. Greetings from Holland, bye, Willem.
@@aerobill8554 Hallo William. 20% alcohol (bij apotheek halen) 80% gedestilleerd water, gedemineraliseerd zo je wil, en een scheutje Dreft. Dreft, omdat de samenstelling sterker is, twee theelepels is genoeg. Dit laatste geeft een minimaal maar wel effectief antistatisch effect en het breekt de oppervlaktespanning van het water. Dit is van belang bij het zoveel als mogelijk voorkomen van druppels als je de plaat in een rek, bijvoorbeeld van de Disco Antistat wasbak, wilt laten drogen. Ik droog de platen met keukenpapier, twee vellen per plaat, beide kanten van de plaat dus. Mét de groef mee (!) de plaat afdrogen. De capillaire werking van het keukenpapier neemt óók het achtergebleven vuil mee het papier in. Daarom dus per plaat twee vellen en die na de plaat te hebben gedroogd wegdoen. Platen die je bij de tweedehandswinkel hebt gekocht of heel vuile platen eerst onder de kraan met handwarm water en een beetje Dreft voorwassen. Dit om te voorkomen dat je waswater meteen enorm vervuild raakt. Om onder de kraan het label te beschermen gebruik je de schijf die uit twee helften bestaat die bij de Disco Antistat wasbak wordt geleverd. Het is niet nodig die net onder de kraan gewassen plaat helemaal droog te maken. Als laatste nog dit. Het kan voorkomen dat je na de totale behandeling tóch nog enige tikken hoort. Die verdwijnen zodra de plaat een keer is afgespeeld helemaal. Natuurlijk krijg je een echte kras of andere beschadiging niet meer weg. Succes! Groet, Willem.
@@DuzBee Hi! First of all, make sure your records are clean, that is, clean of visible dust and fingerprints. Do that by making the records wet (Pre wash). Protect the label. Use lukewarm tapwater and some dishwashing fluid. Flush all water and dishwashing liquid away. Dry the record, the record doesn’t need to be thoroughly dry. Second phase. Prepare a solution of one part denaturalised alcohol and three parts distilled (!) water and a few drops dishwashing liquid. Don’t know if you have “Fairy” in your area but this is a highly concentrated fluid that removes all grease and, as a side effect, makes the record anti static. Poor this mixture into the Disco Antistat basin and clean the record as described in the manual that comes with the Disco Antistat product. After cleaning, leave the record in the rack for a minute or two so most fluid will be in the bottom of the rack. Then, dry the record by wiping it dry with paper kitchen towel and wipe FOLLOWING THE GROOVE! This is utterly important so all contamination, if any left, will be sucked out of the groove by the capillaire action of the kitchen towel. It is labour intensive, I know. You will be rewarded though by a deep clean record. New records do not have to be pre washed. Pre washing is only needed in case of used records. Cleaned records should be put in lined inner sleeves. Oh, it might occur that a freshly cleaned record still produces some crackles and pops. If these are no real scratches they will disappear after one or two plays. Succes….!
These descriptions of the sonic differences between surfactants… I literally had to look and see if this video was posted on April 1st. You audiophile guys crack me up!
@@matthewtaylor7355 If you find any drinkers who discuss the taste differences depending on what coasters they put under their glasses, that would be a fair comparison.
Ive collected Jamaican singles for over 30 years and we (reggae collectors) have used ultrasonic cleaners forever, with unbelievable results on very dirty records. Keep it simple, a few drops of dish soap is all you need, followed by distilled water rinse ✌️
Thanks so much. I have watched the cleaning guide twice. I think that I have the process straight in my mind. Thank you for addressing my concerns. I'll let you know how it goes.
Great review Paul, good solid info. I would note that the EU & UK is set to ban all octylphenol ethoxylate detergents like Triton X-100 in new products at the beginning of the year as there is evidence that they negatively effect aquatic environments. Biodegradation produces a toxic aromatic hydrocarbon product (from the released octylphenol group) that mimics estrogen which interferes with the reproductive systems of fish. That said, they will still be available in N. America. I would use Tergitol 15-S-7 (Pareth-7) as a substitute in Europe. Never mix Tergitol with alcohol, as it causes rapid breakdown of the sufactant causing sticky precipitates to form. The Ilford Ilfotol used to contain approximately 6% Triton X with a trace amount of a preservative to extend shelf life, good for cleaning records, but you would need to use 16 times more to achieve the same detergency as pure Triton. Due to the ban about to take effect, Ilford has already changed to a more bio-friendly surfactant, not sure which. The PhotoFlo contains 5-10% Triton X, but also contains 25-30% Propylene Glycol which can leave a trace of sticky film on your record (sounds like the Kirmuss magic formula to me). The Tergikleen guy knows very little about chemistry, and won't tell us what his "proprietary" formula contains. We can hope that it is Tergitol 15-S-7, or even better yet a blend of 15-S-3 & 15-S-9, but we just don't know. What we do know is that his recommended concentration level of 1ml per gallon, is way below other recommendations for using Tergitol products to clean records. It should be about 0.1% to 0.5%, lesser for lightly soiled or US machine, higher for heavy soiling and hand cleaning. You are certainly on the right track, a high purity non-ionic surfactant in definitely the best way to go, and by adding a little pinch of quat (quaternary ammonium compound) you will never have a problem with static again.
I just needed to offer you a mighty thanks !! A week ago I received my 500 ml bottle of TritonX-100, and it just works fabulously !! I haven't tried any of the others, but this stuff just gets in there and loosens and cleans the grooves, and ultimately the sound improves . I'm thrilled as I sit in my music room, cleaning, and listening to, records. Thanks Again !! 🎩✌️💿
I may not have the equipment ( hearing and hi-fi kit ;-), to notice many of the improvements often mentioned, but really appreciate those who can. To this end I always rate these video’s highly. Triton x-100 ordered👌
Here in Australia I use filtered tap water. We have excellent quality non hard, non recycled water and the filtering deals with any unlikely bacteria. Never had any issues with my ultrasonic cleaning.
Hi Paul Thanks for this very interesting review. I am impressed by your hability to detect differences in sound. I à used to clean my records in home made US machine with 20% alcohol 79 % of distilled water and 1% triton x100. And it works fine. I tested today a prewash with distilled water and few drops of Triton x100 as you recommended. I have to say improvement is very significant. I cleaned today records from 70s and they are dead silent after precleaning and cleaning. So thank you very much for this advises.
Hi Paul, I just stumbled onto your channel today and found this video very informative. Nice to have an opinion on this subject with no invested interested on the brand, except your own money. I have already decided to buy the Tergikleen for my Ultrasonic Kirmuss cleaner. Well Done! Looks like I will be watching a lot more of your channel.
Hi Paul. I just came accross this very informative video. I have been using Mofi products for years but I am now keen to try one of the surfactanats that you reviewed, namely TergiKleen. Question, did you do a distilled water rinse after the cleaning as recommended? Using the TergiKleen would I still need to use a Mofi cleaner? Thanks, Dave.
Hi Paul. Subscriber here!👋🏼Thank you for another great and thorough video. Please can you update some of the UK links..they know longer work. Thanks. Best
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks for that. I've checked the UK ones and they seem to work. I saw the Tergikleen advice and link on your website, so decided to buy direct from them in the US. Came in at just under £40 with the current exchange rate. How long did it take for yours to arrive.
This is a wonderful review and very informative. Great work! I used Kodak PhotoFlo in my ultrasonic cleaner (1:200). I checked the MSDS (material safety data sheet) and the ingredients are Triton X100 and polyethylene glycol. Ilfotol uses a different surfactant (branched, ethoxylated isotridecanol) and a preservative. I was pleased with the result with PhotoFlo, with improved sound after the wash. Quieter and improved detail (both upper and lower frequencies). Most noticeably, the sound was more "relaxed" and the 3D soundstage/transparency definitely improved. I’ve ordered some Tergikleen to try as well as a new product from GrooveWasher, G-sonic which is claimed to be specific for ultrasonic record cleaning.
Just want to say thanks for putting out your videos, not sure people appreciate the work that is involved in the production, scripting, and production of RUclips videos. I appreciate your thoughts and perspective. Thank You!
A little story regarding the importance of rinsing. Although you mentioned it, somehow, I still believed the manufacturer of my vacuum machine, in this case, the keith monk prodigy, and only used the liquid they provided. Now I cleaned two new LPs without prior listening to them without cleaning, and was surprised that they had incredible surface noise. I ordered the clear audio liquid I saw in your videos and cleaned them once more with the new liquid, but again terrible surface noise. I then ordered Ilfotol and bought some distilled water and did a solution of 0.03% as suggested by @Dave Denyer. I did one cleaning with the 0.03% Ilfotol solution on the Keith Monk using a new kind of cheap 15 EUR Kabuki Brush (thank you for this amazing tip) with the Ilfotol solution and one afterwards with another Kabuki Brush with distilled water only. What should I say. The results are really impressive. First of all the surface noises is almost gone, secondly the overall sound quality has improved a lot. Can’t wait until my Degritter MK2 is delivered here in Germany. Hopefully it will be before Christmas. Thank you so much for making these videos.
There are different ways of deionising water - the best uses reverse osmosis (RO) This is the same tech as used in desalination and won’t contain bacteria. Ion exchange resins can also be used and these might potentially obtain some bacteria, but no more than might be found in drinking water. Surfactants can be used for cleaning - then we call them called soap or detergent!. Other types of surfactant have different properties. Cationic surfactants are often used as anti static agents which some record cleaners use. (Remember Permastat?) Surfactants are surface active. (Surfactant is a contraction of surface active agent). They stick to the surface of your record and help the water wet it and help it lift off any greasy deposits. Removing surfactants completely takes a lot of rinsing. Triton X is a non ionic surfactant and a mild detergent and emulsifier which should be perfectly safe to use. It will also kill any bacteria in the water. (But so would the 20% of isopropanol that I include in my solution... I know you would disapprove!)
Thanks for the extra info, Richard. Appreciate you taking the time. Although I reckon I'll stick with the system I mention in the vid. That said, there's lots of room for research here, as you have just confirmed :) Where I'm 'at' in terms of surfactants is merely one step on a long road, I'm sure. There will, no doubt, be updates to follow in the future.
Thank you for taking the time to do all of these great videos, Paul! You're very informative and detailed. I have decided it's time to get more serious about my record collection and take things to the next level. I have around 1000 LPs to clean so I've began building a cleaning station and I like your method of pre-treating the records with a surfactant solution. I was wondering, do you have a suggestion/opinion on method/timing? Does the pre-treatment surfactant solution perform differently if submersed in or applied directly to the vinyl and spread evenly with a goat hair brush? Have you noticed a difference between how long you wait before moving to the next step to wash? I'm curious if leaving the record moist with the surfactant solution for a few minutes helps to loosen any particles so that they come off easier when washing? Or should I be cautious not to let the record dry after applying the surfactant solution, before washing? This is important for me to understand since I plan on doing quite a few I want to be as efficient with my time as possible. Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide! :)
Check out my own vinyl cleaning guide. It's generally aimed at manual cleaning but if you read up until the Disco Antistat enters the scene then all of that, to that point is relevant to the Degritter. Give me a shout if you need further info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan excellent write up paul! its a lenghtly read but great,but was wondering how distilled water and the use of 1% alchohol lower the surface tension?
Hi Frank, the surfactant is there is lower surface tension. Alcohol is used to do part of the actual cleaning. Specifically the oils and related residues which it melts. Cavitation actually removes it. Distilled water is just the carrier for the whole process. Oh and thank you :)
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks paul!! so if i"m correct distilled water and the alcohol does lower the surface tension even without the use of a surfactant but not as much i assume
Thanks Paul. I am going to try this. The concerns that I have are:. Does the Glycol build up in the rinse solution? Or does the alcohol break it down completely? Also, the Tergikleen: At which point does the rinsing solution become saturated with Tergikleen? How many rinses can you do before the solution should be changed because of saturation of Glycol/Tergikleen. Also, how many cycles do you set the Degritter to do (1-4), before going into Drying mode? Thank you.
Check put my Guide here and that should help you out in terms of your concerns: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/ This is for manual cleaning but the vinyl prep is till valid of a Degritter. For now? Using my ratios, the alcohol breaks it down. But don't forget the final rinse. Re. saturation, I change my bath every 30 cleans (depending on how mucky your vinyl is) and that still provides effective cleans. I do a heavy cycle with a drying mode tagged on the end of around 6-7 min.
Based on a lot of research I did myself but especially your lenghty video about the Degritter I ordered one myself. Now I understood from this and the Degritter video that the use of Surfactants is done before you put the vinyl in the Degritter. I understand from this video which surfactants are best to use, but what I do not yet understand is how exactly you apply it to the vinyl??? Maybe a stupid question, but I would still like it answered…..😉
Interesting deep dive into surfactants. I use Triton X-100. About 3 years ago I bought a gallon of 100%. I clean a lot of records, maybe 50 to 75 a month and still have about half a gallon left. I use a manual basin so I use a lot. First off I reduce the Triton from 100 to 10 percent by taking a gallon jug of distilled water and pouring out 13 oz and pouring in 13 oz of the triton. Then I take another gallon of distilled water and pour out 18 oz. I pour 4 oz of the 10 percent triton into the jug and then pour 14 oz of 70 percent of IPA. That gets me to a one gallon cleaning solution which I use primarily to fill my vinyl styl basin but also put into a spray bottle depending on how I'm approaching the record cleaning. I can usually clean between 65 and 100 records with a gallon. I haven't heard anything regarding Triton being banned in the US but by the time I finally use up that gallon of concentrate perhaps it will be, should take another couple of years.
Great vid! I am using a Humminguru w/1 drop of Tergikleen on a 5 min bath, and then a second bath w/distilled water only + 10 min dry. I am going starting to test diluted solution as the producer suggests and see if there was a difference (my guess is no lol). reservoir
Like you I found the Degritter solution, used in their machine as directed, to do a good job of cleaning but things became rather opaque. I also have a reaction to it in terms of heart arrhythmia so, for me an obvious big strike against it. However I tried rinsing it. I'm a huge proponent of rinsing, even on products that claim not to need it. I set up a fan blowing the fumes away from me and did a before, then an "as directed", then a thorough multi step rinse. The recommended use running one cycle (heavy) and then listening was dull. I did two distilled water rinses (I have 3 tanks) then a lab grade water rinse on my vacuum machine. I really like it. I'm doing experiments with my Kirmuss I've used for two years, the new Degritter and a Pro-Ject vacuum machine. Each does some things well. The Degritter with Tergikleen seems the most open but sometimes seems slightly thin. I did. try the A.I. US product and it's OK. I like their products for vacuum machines. The Degritter was rinsed has really nice solidity and midrange textures, seems a bit more fleshed out than the Tergikleen but it is more open with a more expansive soundstage. It's almost like pick the one that suits a particular LP..... That way lies madness. But... what if I followed the Degritter/rinse with a Tergikleen rinse? Or tried the Triton X-100, which I have on order.
Polysorbate 80 is better than the muddy ILFOTOL and is very cheap 10.50 GBP for a litre. It ain't thin sounding... Tergikleen is piss takingly xpensive
Great information! Based on your test results, that I had no way of doing myself, I'm glad that I had already purchased Tergikleen prior to this. Also, when you put together the videos for manual and rcm using these surfactants...will you be using the same alcohol & distilled water cleaning solution for each video? Or will you be testing with multiple cleaning solutions? (Not sure if you plan on doing comparisons or just general proper method of use for manual & rcm)
Hi Jacob - many thanks :) For the rest? I'll be utilising the best combination of liquids and surfactants for each process and finding the best combo within that. That's why I did the alcohol video (see elsewhere) and this surfactant video now, to narrow down those variables.
Loved this one! I got recommended L'art du son record cleaning fluid when I began this hobby and have been using it with my ultrasonic cleaning system ever since. Have you had any experience with this cleaning fluid? I'm curious how it compares to just a pure surfactant. Thanks for the content!
Hi Jonathan - when the Loricraft RCM was my go-to cleaning machine, L'Art du Son was my go-to liquid but I no longer use it, I'm afraid. If it works for you, that's great though. I wouldn't personally compare that with surfactant, the latter is something I would use with a cleaning liquid, as an adjunct.
Great set of videos! Thank you very much. My Degritter arrives on Friday along with surfactant. Once you clean your albums and put them away in a new inner sleeve is there anything else that you do to your albums before you play them on another day? Do you just take them out and play them or do you usa a anti static brush or anything like that? Thanks.
Another incredible video. I have ordered a Disco Anti stat at your recommendation, and I have decided to go for the x-100 as it’s cheap. What should I apply the water/surfactant mix to the vinyl with?
Please read my cleaning guide here for more on that. Give me a shout later if you need more info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
That was extremely detailed and helpful. My application is a Spin Clean bath followed by a Record Doctor vacuuming. Earlier today a video discussed using 2-3 drops Dawn dish soap in one gallon (3.785L) distilled water with 7.4-14.7ml white distilled vinegar. White vinegar was described as a rinse agent. What are your thoughts, please?
I've sent you a link to my own Guide as per my reply elsewhere, from my site which includes plenty of background info, hopefully that helps. Soap is to be avoided because it leaves a residue that is tough to remove from vinyl so the stylus ends up playing it which veils detail (if you've ever smelt that "lemon fresh!" advertised smell on your dishes, you're smelling residue) while vinegar is not a pure substance even in that form (I wouldn't use vodka for the same reason) so I wouldn't chance that either.
Hi, Paul Love the channel, such a great resource. I'm using Ilfotol as my surfatant of choice using 1 part Ilfotol to 200 parts distilled water. What ratio of Propylene Glycol would you recommend if I added it to the solution? Cheers!
H Andrew - I'd advise checking out my Vinyl Cleaning Guide on my website first. See if that helps further: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Paul, I have a Kirmuss Audio Ultrasonic Cleaner. I do have Tergikleen as a surfactant, but want to mix it and use it correctly. The Kirmuss Audio uses close to two gallons of distilled water. Would that be 20 drops of Tergikleen? Or, should the Tergikleen be brushed I to the groves? If so, how do you mix it with glycol? Should 40mL of Isopropyl Alcohol be mixed o to the bath too? How many 5 minute cycles? How should the record be rinsed as it would have to be in a separate unit such as a spin clean. It would be amazing if you could create a step by step video on using Tergikleen with the Kirmuss Audio Ultrasonic. Thanks!
Hi Michael - checkout my manual guide to vinyl cleaning. The first part, the preparation section can be applied to ultrasonics too. Hopefully that helps. Give me a shout if you ned more help: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
In general, surfactants, ion guns, stylus cleaners, carbon fiber brushes, platter mats, micro fiber cloths, glue, disc flatteners, cleaning spray, disc washers, etc, etc…….just put your record on top of a Van Der Graaff generator. That’ll do the trick. 🤯🤯🤯(If it doesn’t try a Tesla Coil.)
My unproved thesis goes: Any post-cleaning residue would be in the most "hard to get at" nooks & crannies of the record groove's inner-wall protrusions & nodules, those nooks & crannies which water's surface-tension would protect from wetting thoroughly on an initial cleaning if a surfactant was not used. So would it not be worthwhile putting a half or quarter dose of it in the last post-cleaning rinse? ...based on the fact that the surfactant free rinse water's surface- tension would impedes the rinse, just as it would have impeded the initial clean if it were not used ...without getting too Howard Hughs about it! Just a thought. I have used 50% Isopropyl alcohol with distilled water damped onto fine camera cleaning brushes & lint-free cloth to try & wipe away what you cannot see in the groove (but I've not soacked L.P.s in it) for removing blobs of "i know not" on s/h L.P.s but i alway found extenting playing afterwards clears sometimes all, sometimes less of the grunge from whatever was dropped onto my s/h buys. I guess a stylus is just the right shape for scraping out whatever is laying where the dismond scrapes across, but it make your stylus caked in near-baked on filth quickly, as you mentioned. I'm thinking of buying a cheap linear tracking t/table with repeat, to leave dirtier sounding s/h buys, playing all night long per side, ive got many absolute fave's that cannot be got on CDs but need deep cleaning. My friends review on Chinese made Ultra Sound cleaners have not been good at all. But that was 10 or 15 years ago
Hi Paul. Excellent overall explaination. I've read somewhere to avoid using either Tergikleen or Ethanol as both are highly toxic. Not sure if this is true?
Isopropyl Alcohol is also toxic to some degree, can cause dizziness if inhaled in quantity, is dangerous on an ecological level and is highly flammable and dangerous to store - yet that substance is in just about ever cheap and cheerful vinyl cleaning liquid concoction currently for sale on the Internet. Treated with respect and used properly, all surfactants and vinyl cleaning solutions are useful, if not highly effective, in removing muck and grime from the vinyl groove. You just need to apply common sense, care and attention.
Hi Paul, great videos and insight for my USCleaning journey. I am going to use a pre wash method of 999ml of Deioised water and 1ml Triton X-100. My question is do i just cover the record surfaces and then pop it into the USC or should I scrub the solution with a brush to agitate it a bit just like a standard RCM method?
Check out my Guide here - it can still be adapted, even if you use a RCM or ultrasonic cleaner: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Pulling my records out of storage so they can be listened to again, so I had to start relearning all I ever knew about surfactants. Thanks for this video. QUESTION: Can't we make good surfactants at home?
Thanks for your comment, Paul. Yes, I've looked at this one in the past. Photo Flo consist of Glycol (which I recommend for all vertical cleaners - I refer to it in my Degritter and Disco Antistat reviews and my website-based vinyl cleaning Guide) plus Triton x100 which I include in this video and test as a separate substance. That said, I no longer recommend Triton (see the warning in the Comments) because it has been found to be dangerous to wildlife. It's now banned in Europe.
I came to your video because I had the idea of using Ilfotol but now I am interested in the Tergikleen. No matter how many times I watch the video I still have this question I I am using a manual record clean like the Spin Clean and plan on using Tergikleen do I still use the spin cleanfluid in addition to the Tergikleen? Or does the Tergikleen replace this? Thanks
Hi Paul and fantastic video! I am about to get a Degritter and looking to upgrade on the cleaning agent that comes with it. At the same time, I want to keep things simple and not have to do a separate rinse cycle. That being the case, what would you recommend? Would the Ifotol be the way to go and if so, how many mil of fluid would one use to the water tank? Sorry if this is written up somewhere and if so, please point me to a link and I will go and read! Thanks in advance!
I was just going to add a comment thanking you for this informative video which has helped me produce stunning results by applying a surfactant prior to my normal Disco Antistat (distilled water/alcohol) wash cycle. I can't believe how much positive difference it has made. Unfortunately I had not previously looked at your comments page and seen the top comment about Triton x100 (which I used after buying on eBay). Does anyone know why it is considered so dodgy?
I’m confused (it’s not hard). So I’ve purchased a Pro-Ject VC-E2 RCM. So based on your video, I’d need to: 1. Cover the record in a Surfactant/Dis Water mix first 2. Suck up Sufactant Mix with the RCM 3. Cover record with normal Record Cleaning Fluid 4. Suck up Cleaning Fluid with RCM 5. Put record though a distilled water only bath Is that right? I really don’t want to get it wrong :(
Hi and thanks for the great video! A quick question for you. I am currently using Ilfotol, since I had already opened a container. Do you feel that a distilled water rinse is needed after cleaning in diluted Ilfotol? I know that this product is supposed to offer anti static properties as well. I'm not sure if I would be doing myself any favors by doing a final rinse. I haven't been able to find any reliable information to determine if any Ilfotol residue is a concern or not. Thanks in advance for your advice!
Hi Paul. I clean my records with a record cleaning fluid, a mold release agent . A work turntable (direct drive) and a record cleaning machine. Then to finish off, a bottle of record preservative. i do this to both used records and brand new ones. If this is not done there will be irreversible damage to the record after the first play.
Just watched your last comments - If we assume that neither Tergitol or Triton is adding anything to the actual sound in the groove, it would imply that Tergikleen is revealing things in the highs better, Triton in the lows. So what if you layer them? More to the point, clean with one rinse, then clean and rinse with the other. The best of both worlds? Disastrous? I'm going to try it. Having extra tanks for the Degritter makes it simpler. Sorry to keep bugging you. I'm really engaged in figuring out how I want to do it and then forget about the process and get on with music. Thanks
@@rabarebra I've moved on since then. Mainly to a Klaudio cleaner, far better in my view than the Degritter. If I feel that deep cleaning is necessary on a given album I prewash and thoroughly rinse on a vacuum machine first. The Klaudio is nother but distilled water. The filter on it is the size of a beer can as opposed to the pencil eraser one on the Degritter. The sound is great and less surface noise than anything I've used, including the Kirmuss and Degritter. I want nothing in the grooves when I'm finished, or as close to it as I can get.
What is a pound and how many drops are there in a milliliter? Also, I'd mark those drinking water bottles of solution in case there are any children or engineers nearby. I mistakenly bought tergitol 15-s-15 while 7 or a mix of 3 and 9 is recommended. There are over 20 formulations if I remember correctly for all types of cleaning and production. Im going to try ilfotol rather than tergitol as I'm frustrated that 7 is so hard to find. In the short research I've done I'm once again fascinated at industry and chemistry. How specialized products are and 1000s of them out there. I wonder how many people appreciate that when they think they have everything figured out.
Thank you very much for this and all your other videos. They are really excellent - balanced and clear on your opinions. Too many You Tube videos avoid critical opinions - so thank you. One question. When you say “applied directly to the record surface” can you say how you do this please (or is there a video I’m missing).
Thanks Clyde and no probs. You can apply the surfactant via a pipette like these in the here link: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00IZOCRB8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1 These are what I use to apply my surfactant to the vinyl surface.
I understood that I have 20 drops of triton in 2 liters of water but how much of this solution should I add in 6 liters of distilled water in the ultrasonic machine ?????????????
I wouldn't add surfactant to the bath itself. Only to the vinyl surface directly. In a bath? It loses efficiency. And I now don't recommend Triton which was banned in Europe after my video was published because it's harmful to nature/wildlife. For more info, please see my Vinyl Cleaning guides. Part 1 is here: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/. It focuses on manual cleaning but the vinyl preparation and general principles can be applied to ultrasonic cleaning. Part 2 is devoted to RCMs. I have yet to sort Part 3 for ultrasonics. As I say though, the vinyl prep for Port 1 will be in Part 3 as well.
Hi Paul, Thanks for this very interesting video. I have L'art Du Son cleaning fluid and a Okki Nokki machine. I'm willing to try surfactant, and I was wondering if I could mix it directly with my l'art du son - distilled water bottle, or should I keep the surfactant in another bottle? It would be easier if I could mix it all in one bottle, but I don't want to do anything wrong! Thanks a lot
I wouldn't mix L'Art du Son, Joseph. You need to apply the surfactant directly to the vinyl before cleaning. Once done, you clean with the L'Art du Son.
@@TheAudiophileMan Ok Thanks. I'll try it and will tell you what I think of it! Yesterday I read an article about cleaning solutions and surfactant by Michael Framer, and he claimed that different solutions/surfactants cannot sound different, since it's vacuumed before playing. What is your take on this? You seemed to think different on your video Thanks again for your videos and articles, I really enjoy it every time!
I'm not in the business of engaging in critical debate with other reviewers. If you read my opinions on my site and view my videos on this channel, you will be easily able to gauge my opinions on the matter.
@@TheAudiophileMan Oh I'm sorry, engaging a debate was certainly not my goal here. I just wanted to know why you think differently. I'll go back to your website as suggested! Sorry again for the misunderstanding, have a good evening and a good week-end Joseph
Hi Paul, I have just bought the Degriiter and am getting ready to put my first lot of LP’s through the process. My head is spinning a bit from all the videos and articles so I am hoping you can confirm the recipes you recommend from your research. I can readily get Illfotol in Australia but Triton x100 and Tergiklean are hard to get. For the surfactant mix I think your recommendation is 1 part Illfotol to 200 parts distilled water. Do you also add glycol to this? If so, can you suggest the mix. For the rinse your recommendation is 7 parts isoalcohol to 100 parts distilled water. Could you please confirm your recommendation. Thanks for your help
Hey Paul, I recently acquired the tergikleen which really sounds great. like your video states I'm getting excellent high mids and treble but I feel like I'm missing some lows. I'm thinking of trying the triton x-100. Have you tried using both on the same record, did that maybe bring up the lows and maintain the amazing clarity up top? Or did the sound signature change to whichever cleaner you used last?
Dear Paul, love your RUclips channel, but don't always have the time to watch enough of it as I am running my own business. I am about to purchase a Degritter on the basis of your review and my own research. However, I am a little perplexed by the procedure you recommend for it. I am also a bit unsure about what liquids to purchase. Is there a document I can download that will deal with these issues? Keep up the good work.
Thank you, Arthur and yes, there sure is. Read this Guide and I'm sure it will help. It's aimed at manual cleaning but everything before the actual use of the Disco Antistat is valid for the Degritter. The materials used, vinyl preparation, etc...
@@TheAudiophileMan Hi, just read your helpful guide. Any tips for applying the surfactant to the second side of the record prior to putting it into the Degritter? Do you just flip the record over and lay the wet side on a protective surface like a microfibres towel or do you avoid the first (wet) side coming into contact with anything somehow?
They're really two different things. L'Art du Son was my 'go to' when I operated a RCM a while back and its a good general cleaner for those machines. Tergitol is not recommended as a stand alone cleaner. It's there to assist and aid cleaning along with other hardware and liquid tools. I would always add a rinse cycle to remove all chemicals from the vinyl surface before drying.
Hi Paul, helful review as always. I've bought some Triton X1 could you confirm the mix ratio with distilled water before brushing onto a vinyl? I was intending to apply this prior to cleaning in a Knosti using water and isopropyl. Thanks
Hi , Ok I finally received my Tergikleen and found my distilled water! What am I missing to clean my vinyls with the Degritter as you please? Should I also buy the Ilford Ilfotol? What alcohol do you use please? Thank you !
Thank you , I've been using the Kodak without noticing it's expiration date is well long past . Ordered Triton X-100 for longer shelf life . Will refrigeration harm it or extend it's shelf life ?
I don't recommend Triton (as per my pinned comment) because it's now been found harmful to wildlife but, to answer your question, I am not wholly sure if refrigeration has an effect because I'm not sure how exactly it breaks down and if temperature, etc is part of that break down process. One thing, talking to others, I now have a feeling that 'use by' dates on this sort of stuff are rather conservative and that liquids like this last an awful lot longer than the date on the bottle would have it.
@@TheAudiophileMan In the Vinyl Cleaning Guide pt 1 you mentioned using a surfactant that included Tergitol and Propylene Glycol, if I recall correctly. In this video you mentioned Tergitol (10 drops per liter) only. What is your pre-treatment for the Degritter cycle? I am guessing it might be Tergitol (10 drops per liter) but not sure.
I use Glycol for upright cleaners - check out this Guide. Most of it applies to ultrasonics too: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@miguelbarrio I use a Kabuki brush on the vinyl surface to push the Tergitol/glycol mix into the grooves (which I think I detailed in the Degritter review)..
I have a question I’m planning on buying a Spin Clean or something similar. Could any of these surfactants be used with a entry level wet cleaner and make a difference in the sound quality?
I have been using Triton for some time now. After watching your video it sounds like I am using way too much. I have been putting a cap full (approx 10 ml) per 2 gallons of distilled water. The Triton I have is 99% so it is slightly thick and I usually warm the water so it will mix in easier. How many ml would you recommend or what would you dilute to and how much of the dilution would you use per gallon of water. I bought 16oz of the x-100 from Amazon for 26.00 US. It was listed as Biopharm Triton X100. Thanks for your informative video.
Hi Mark - you may find my Cleaning System of use, incidentally: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/ Let me measure my Triton here. Be back ASAP on that.
Hello Paul. I have used 'Ilford Ilfostop' on my vinyl records.i used 50ml on 950ml of distilled water making 1 litre. I put it in 'disco antistatic' manual cleaning machine. Turned it 6 times back and forth. I have tested it without rinsing and also rinsing in stilled water. It sounds bad with all the snaps and crackles through various records. Not sure what I am do wrong. These are new records that sounded OK before the clean but now they sound much worse. I have used distilled water to clean the stylus but it still sounds bad. Please can advise of what I am doing wrong. Thank you. Darin.
Give my Guide a bit of a read, and then give me a shout if you have issues after that: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Thank you paul. I have read some of it and I think and watched the video footage again and I have been doing it wrong. I have been diluting it in the the bath rather than doing it separately on the record surface. I put 50 ml of Ilford into 950ml of distilled water into the disco antistatic manual cleaning bath. Will I do my vinyl any damage by doing this? Thanks. Darin.
The Cardigans "paralyzed" begins as follows: "This is where your sanity gives in And love begins "- I find that cleaning vinyl records is a topic where one can end up in such a borderland. Your considerations about Kodak Photo-Flo and any bacteria in battery water might give such a hint? When I listen to a freshly washed record, I must admit that all too often I sit and listen to remnants of debris rather than indulge in music. It's a curse there. Thank you for an interesting video, driven by your unique enthusiasm and Renaissance curiosity - as usual. This was very helpful. I have just bought an ultrasound-based system of the simpler kind, and am trying to find a good cleaning routine. When it comes to the experience of sound, I am becoming less and less objective. I have realized that I am a being who takes in the world in a diverse way. Measurements and forms can rarely give exhaustive explanations of why I experience a product or system the way I do - even if though that side of the issue is obviously important. But as a technically interested person, I still become very curious about how it can be that one surfactant can have good properties in the bass range, while the other excels at the higher end of the frequency spectrum. What is going on? Can we see this in the grooves with a microscope? Is there something with the mechanical contact between diamond and groove? I must admit that it goes a little beyond my comprehension. But, by all means. I'm not denying that you may be right.
Thanks for your thoughts, Bjarne - the difference in sound quality can result in differences in the groove content. The stylus is dumb. It plays what it touches. Simple as that. If you clean the groove the stylus will play what's underneath and the sound will differ accordingly. It should, at any rate. What I suspect via Triton X-100 - and it's an increasing suspicion - is that this surfactant leaves a thin layer of residue which 'adds' to the bass. The stylus plays the groove and the residue. Something that Tergitol removes. With Tergitol, the sound is slowly revealed. That happens with Triton too but then bass is added and really, nothing should be added. That's my thoughts, so far at any rate.
I’m confused about your use of surfactant. I use the Degritter with the Audio Intelligent Enzymatic concentrate for ultrasonic cleaning machines. I also use all of the other formulas from Audio Intelligent with my VPI 16.5 cleaning machine as a prewash. However, the records washed on the VPI are vacuumed. All records are dry when added to the Degritter. Are you adding surfactant to the record and then adding to the Degritter while “wet” with surfactant? Is this in addition to another formula that is mixed in the Degritter? Lastly, have you tested the Audio Intelligent formulas? Are these formulas “surfactants”? I purchase these through Osage Audio Products.
Triton x Brings me back to dissolving cell surface membranes in a bio chemistry lab :) It’s amazing how many surfactant there are and the types, usually based on charges
I think that's how they all essentially work: think washing up liquids, soaps and shampoos - they all lower surface tension and many then dissolve grease. A lot of household cleaning agents use "anionic surfactants" in their ingredients lists
Paul great video. I own a kirmuss ultra sonic machine and don't want to spend $85 US dollars for 300ml of the cleaning solution. If I were to make my own with tergitol and ethyl glycol mix with 300ml of distilled water. How much of the 2 chemicals would I add to the water? A couple drops of each? I would just refill the spray bottle the kirmess comes with and spray the record directly. Just not sure how much chemical is to much. The kirmuss solution says it is 99% distilled water and 1% surfactant and ethyl glycol. Thanks for any advice. Cheers
This is my manual cleaning method recommendation but the early parts of it easily apply to ultrasonic too - the vinyl preparation parts. Hope this helps: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
I live in Brazil and was able to grab the Mofi super record wash while I was in the US. I really loved the results! Now I ran out of it and don’t want to pay 60 dollars for shipping (outrageous!!!!). So I wonder if those methods you’ve taught in the video are as effective as mofi’s super record wash and if it’s suitable for vacuum cleaner machines. Thanks again, Paul!
Great video, Paul, question, what would be the result if one mixed tegikleen and triton x-100, in proportionally reduced amounts, together and used in record cleaning fluid. Just a thought since they both seem good but different. enjoy the music
Good question and I have no idea, Peter. My instincts say that they would combat each other and the result would be inconclusive because of that but that's only my hunch.
@@TheAudiophileMan Fair enough, i have no idea either, i asked a 70yr old chemical scientist guy i sell records to about it too, and his comment was that he had no idea either, so we are going to get some tergikleen and triton and experiment on some junk albums to see. Tergikleen is a mix of tergitol 15-2 and 15-9 to make teergitol 15.7, which is ideal for records but hard to get because apparently the U.S. military has commandeered it for their use. He feels a mix of terikleen and triton might be good, but without trialing it he has no idea. will let you know....
Superb information. I have a bath type cleaner and have backed the Kickstarter Humminguru ultrasonic cleaner. Edit: purchased the Triton x1000 and used in my Disco Knosti bath cleaner. I cleaned my old Van Morrison Veedon Fleece. Unbelievable improvement! Best £8 upgrade ever!
You might like to look into reverse osmosis water withe a tds of 0.4, {tds is total desolved solids} from a tropical fish shop and is cheap, and is maybe the most pure water.
So there's an argument against surfactants- they allow the cleaner/water to get into the grooves easier yes, but they can also allow the dirt to settle back into the grooves before you get a chance to rinse/dry. MOFI makes a cleaner that advertises 'high surface tension' for this purpose- after wet scrubbing the liquid 'suspends' the dirt on the surface where it can be wiped away easier. This theory does make sense, IMO your cleaning brush should be able to work any cleaner deep into the grooves as you apply pressure. Any thoughts?
Hi Adam - reinfection of dirt into the grooves is a problem with all cleaning technologies, techniques, liquids, tools, etc. It's not a surfactant-only problem. The emphasis is on you to do the best you can to minimise it. Better tools can reduce that reinfection. For example, ultrasonic cleaners do a better job than RCMs which do a better job than manual cleaners. But following a considered manual treatment regime can, in itself, reduce the problem. See my latest Guide, recently published on my site for manual cleaning (a video version should follow soon): theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Hi Jerry - have you seen my Vinyl Cleaning Guides on my website? (theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/) They are under the Vinyl Care menu. Each Guide is...long but does feature an illustrated section to prepare your vinyl for cleaning, tools and liquids needs, proportions/quantities, etc. Part 1 is aimed at manual cleaning and Part 2 is aimed at RCMs. I've still to sort Part 3 aimed at Ultrasonics. Saying that, the vinyl prep is the same for all three so please check that out. You might want to look at my Degritter video on this channel for more ultrasonic info in terms of my approach to cleaning on such a machine.
Although this website Guide is aimed at manual cleaners, the preparation of the record and the core techniques are the same for my Degritter use - give me a shout if you need more info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
I may have missed this- but in reviewing the Audio Desk it is mentioned the product contains cleaning fluid. The pure surfactants are rated , but if it is only a surfactant (and here is what I may be forgetting from earlier) what is the cleaner/ cleaning solution being used with them?
I don't know. No-one outside of Audiodesk knows, to be honest. So I had to work it out for myself either from experience or from cryptic interviews with people in and around the company. Honestly? It looks, smells and acts like a surfactant. And when you talk about ultrasonic cleaning, there is no 'only'. Surfactant is everything. Without surfactant, you cut the cleaning efficiency in half. Cavitation is your 'cleaning liquid'. That is, distilled water and bubbles. The right surfactant allows that to happen. It pushes that process closer to the groove. So buying the right surfactant is critical and there are plenty of superior liquids out there over and above the 'secret' one supplied by Audiodesk. That companies who supply their own ultrasonic hardware fail to provide superior surfactants is not new, incidentally. I don't rate the one supplied by Degritter either :)
@@TheAudiophileManThank you for the fast and detailed reply. I guess what I am wondering, and did not articulate well, is should the Tergikleen be used with a cleaning solution for say a Spin Clean cleaning or can it be used by itself in distilled water? Thanks again
No probs and...ok, I see now. I would only use distilled water and 7% alcohol in the bath. Then add Tergikleen mixed with Glycol, brushed onto the vinyl surface, then pop that into the ultrasonic machine itself. Nothing else. I would bin the Audio Deck liquid. For manual cleaning such as Spin Clean? Check out my vinyl cleaning guide here (which focuses on the Disco Antistat but can be used with the Spin Clean): theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Paul, Based largely on your recommendation I have just bought a Degritter . I've used it for the first time today. My question for you is regarding the use of cleaning solutions with this machine. The importer here in the United States says he uses only distilled water in his machine. No other cleaning solution. Based on your research, what do you recommend as a best practice? Lab grade or other very pure distilled water only or add the supplied cleaning solution to it or some other surfactant? Thank you!
Hi Arshad - in broad terms (I hope to provide more detailed website reviews and RUclips videos later), I use distilled water and 7% alcohol in that bath. On the vinyl itself, I use a Tergitol surfactant and Glycol mixed into that. The latter keeps the Tergitol in the grooves because gravity wants to pull it off :) That's why I use 7% alcohol, to melt the Glycol off the grooves. If I wasn't using Glycol, I'd only need 1% alcohol to do the job. You don't need much alcohol and too much is aggressive to the disc. I know...all of that sounds very confusing but I hope to explain all soon. You're welcome to ask questions if you need to, of course.
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks very much Paul! Happy new year. Do you think regular distilled water from the grocery store or pharmacy it's OK, or should one use laboratory or reagent grade distilled water?
I have been cleaning my records in the spin clean with its default fluid then running them through again with distilled water to rinse. How much improvement could I get by applying the tritonx (that one is much cheaper on ebay) first?
Well I talk about the sonic benefits of that product in this video and the written version on my site so my thoughts are right there. Applying a surfactant directly to a vinyl surface is recommended.
i use the Amazon Boundless spray bottle, alcohol free, and obviously, directly sprayed onto the record, then wipe off with towel. I don't want to spend the $$$ on a machine, so I wonder how to just use one of the surfactants?
Tergikleen recommends 10-20 drops per gallon (I guess us gallon 3,8l) => 3-5 drops/liter and you used 10 drops/liter. How com did you use so much more cleaning fluid that were recommended?
Trial and error and sound testing afterwards. But you're welcome to use less if you wish, of course. Also, just so I don't paint myself into a corner here, that's where I'm at right now. I try to tweak and test constantly so may change that in the future depending on other variables.
Great review, Tergitol is available on eBay in the UK, 5ml of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 5ml of Tergitol 15-S-9 for £5. The seller does suggest that 2 drops of each to be added to 2 Litres of a 4 : 1 mix of distilled water and rubbing alcohol! It does sound a bit heavy on the Isopropyl...
Here's my Guide for manual cleaning - although it can easily be adapted for RCM and ultrasonic cleaning too: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/ Any questions, pleases shout.
Do you mean a vinyl cleaning 'how to'? Not yet. Recently published Part 1, manual cleaning, on my site. RCMs will form Part 2 and Ultrasonics will be Part 3.
I find adding surfactant to a ultrasonic bath is good - it does help - but it's not as efficient as applying it, diluted, directly to the vinyl surface and facing that surfactant into the grooves with a Kabuki brush. Check out this Guide, the first - what - 14 steps I think, also applies to ultrasonic cleaners: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Hi Paul, matbe I have lost some points but I want to ask because I have a Degritter since July 20. How do You apply the surfactant on the surface of the vinyl before inserting in the cleaning machine? Do you keep it in your fingers or do you use some particular tool? My concern is that liquid may flow from the disc before being inserted into the machine. Thanks Lorenzo
Hi Lorenzo - no, that's my fault. I haven't addressed that yet. You need to add Glycol to your surfactant which will keep the latter in the grooves when vertical. I will be addressing this in a forthcoming video but, if you need info now, ask away.
Thanks for your reply. Do You think that a machine such as Spin Clean Vinyl (or similar) could be useful for applying the surfactant before inserting into Degritter?
I would apply directly via a pipette then push the liquid into the grooves using a Kabuki brush (lady's make up brush - very stubby bristles) in a spiral fashion, clockwise then anti-clockwise. Get your fingers right down the bristles to stiffen them up. That's a better method than a Spin Clean option.
Also cheaper... Last question (I promise): Should Glycol be added to the surfactant before applying to vinyl and stored in the same bottle or directly on the record? Could you tell me the dosage and maybe a type to buy online?
I would add 2 pipette droppers-worth of Glycol to the pipette bottle (each pipette will probably fill just over half the glass vial in actuality) and fill the rest with surfactant. Give the bottle a good shake and then the mixed surfactant is ready to apply to the vinyl surface.
I'm using your formulas for diluted Tergikleen and Glycol found on your website. I'm unclear on the amount of glycol you add as you dispense two "half vial" amounts into the liter of diluted Tergikleen. If you were to guess what is that volume of glycol? Does the exact amount matter?
I would say between 1-2ml. You really want to stay in that zone, otherwise you’ll need more alcohol to melt it off and you don’t want to go above 7% really.
Just received my bottle of Triton X 100 and the paper says "next test date 2031" so in 10 years . One question are you saying that 20 micro drop[s for 2 litres ? so my question, do you transfer to a smaller spray bottle for clean records , spray on the records before it goes into the ultra sonic ??
You mention that the first product contains no alcohol, making it safe to use... I have heard many channels recommend using alcohol and distilled water. What about alcohol do you believe makes it unsafe, or is this just put out there by the makers of cleaning fluids to get you to purchase their product rather than use a homemade version?
I use alcohol and distilled water and I'm one of those channels, Eric :) But not directly on the vinyl surface and not in too high concentration. Alcohol can soften vinyl causing groove distortion, damaging/harming/wrecking sound. To work, you only need 1% in any quantity of distilled water (in the bath, that is). I use 7% when using upright cleaners because I also use Glycol and the 7% is needed to melt the Glycol. See more here: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
I was recently alerted (10/3/21) by a kindly contributor in the Comments section of my Website that Triton X-100 has now been banned for use in Europe. Hence I now do *not* recommend Triton X-100 for use in vinyl cleaning. There is talk of a replacement being tagged as a safe alternative. Something called Nereid, which is a cousin of Triton X-100 but without the bad stuff, basically. I'll keep an eye on this contender because it's still in the testing stage, so I hear. When I can, I'll give it a test. You can find more information here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_X-100 Here's a précis of the Triton X-100 issue: “A Triton X-100 degradation product has indeed turned out to be ecotoxic as it possesses hormone-like (estrogeno-mimetic) activity that may act on wildlife.[12] The ECHA finally included the substance group in the Authorisation List (Annex XIV),[13] mandating the pharmaceutical and other industries to replace this detergent by the “sunset date” January 4, 2021, thereby affecting EU manufacturers, importers, and downstream users, as well as non-European manufacturers exporting their products into the EU.”
Thanks Paul, please keep us posted and updated
Banned in Australia too
Sorry if this a stupid question, but why can't I use less scary products like dish soap? I've heard that many people have good results with that
I understood that I have 20 drops of triton in 2 liters of water but how much of this solution should I add in 6 liters of distilled water in the ultrasonic machine ?????????????
@@Andrew-ps9zpAs mentioned below dishsoap works perfectly. Just use very little. Its not the foam that cleans. Just the opposite.
Organic bass, subtle this and that…..oh oh. You know, I hear no differences at all if the groove is clean, so no residues at all, no matter what product I have used. I simply use denaturalised alcohol bought at the chemist, distilled water and some Fairy (or equivalent) dishwasher liquid. Did so for decades and continue to do so. Yes, the trusted Disco Antistat does the trick for me, as I mentioned for decades now. You know, my records are not destroyed by the alcohol at all, just use as little as possible which I do. The Fairy breaks the surface tension and gives the record surface a nice and smooth shine in which the stylus feels at home. No residu ( quite unlike the original Disco Antistat fluid! ) at all. Minimal costs, maximum results. Greetings from Holland, bye, Willem.
What are the ratios you use ?
Hey Willem. William hier. Mijn dochter van 16 is net begonnen met (2e hands) vinyl. Wat is je advies tav mengverhouding ? Gr. uit Limburg 😊
@@aerobill8554 Hallo William. 20% alcohol (bij apotheek halen) 80% gedestilleerd water, gedemineraliseerd zo je wil, en een scheutje Dreft. Dreft, omdat de samenstelling sterker is, twee theelepels is genoeg. Dit laatste geeft een minimaal maar wel effectief antistatisch effect en het breekt de oppervlaktespanning van het water. Dit is van belang bij het zoveel als mogelijk voorkomen van druppels als je de plaat in een rek, bijvoorbeeld van de Disco Antistat wasbak, wilt laten drogen. Ik droog de platen met keukenpapier, twee vellen per plaat, beide kanten van de plaat dus. Mét de groef mee (!) de plaat afdrogen. De capillaire werking van het keukenpapier neemt óók het achtergebleven vuil mee het papier in. Daarom dus per plaat twee vellen en die na de plaat te hebben gedroogd wegdoen. Platen die je bij de tweedehandswinkel hebt gekocht of heel vuile platen eerst onder de kraan met handwarm water en een beetje Dreft voorwassen. Dit om te voorkomen dat je waswater meteen enorm vervuild raakt. Om onder de kraan het label te beschermen gebruik je de schijf die uit twee helften bestaat die bij de Disco Antistat wasbak wordt geleverd. Het is niet nodig die net onder de kraan gewassen plaat helemaal droog te maken. Als laatste nog dit. Het kan voorkomen dat je na de totale behandeling tóch nog enige tikken hoort. Die verdwijnen zodra de plaat een keer is afgespeeld helemaal. Natuurlijk krijg je een echte kras of andere beschadiging niet meer weg. Succes! Groet, Willem.
Hi Mate, what ratios do you use? Cheers.
@@DuzBee Hi! First of all, make sure your records are clean, that is, clean of visible dust and fingerprints. Do that by making the records wet (Pre wash). Protect the label. Use lukewarm tapwater and some dishwashing fluid. Flush all water and dishwashing liquid away. Dry the record, the record doesn’t need to be thoroughly dry. Second phase. Prepare a solution of one part denaturalised alcohol and three parts distilled (!) water and a few drops dishwashing liquid. Don’t know if you have “Fairy” in your area but this is a highly concentrated fluid that removes all grease and, as a side effect, makes the record anti static. Poor this mixture into the Disco Antistat basin and clean the record as described in the manual that comes with the Disco Antistat product. After cleaning, leave the record in the rack for a minute or two so most fluid will be in the bottom of the rack. Then, dry the record by wiping it dry with paper kitchen towel and wipe FOLLOWING THE GROOVE! This is utterly important so all contamination, if any left, will be sucked out of the groove by the capillaire action of the kitchen towel. It is labour intensive, I know. You will be rewarded though by a deep clean record. New records do not have to be pre washed. Pre washing is only needed in case of used records. Cleaned records should be put in lined inner sleeves. Oh, it might occur that a freshly cleaned record still produces some crackles and pops. If these are no real scratches they will disappear after one or two plays. Succes….!
These descriptions of the sonic differences between surfactants… I literally had to look and see if this video was posted on April 1st. You audiophile guys crack me up!
These descriptions of the taste differences between types of alcoholic drinks.. Drinkers crack me up
@@matthewtaylor7355 If you find any drinkers who discuss the taste differences depending on what coasters they put under their glasses, that would be a fair comparison.
Ive collected Jamaican singles for over 30 years and we (reggae collectors) have used ultrasonic cleaners forever, with unbelievable results on very dirty records. Keep it simple, a few drops of dish soap is all you need, followed by distilled water rinse ✌️
Thanks so much. I have watched the cleaning guide twice. I think that I have the process straight in my mind. Thank you for addressing my concerns. I'll let you know how it goes.
I got the Tergikleen thanks to you Paul, amazing improvement, thank you!!
Great review Paul, good solid info. I would note that the EU & UK is set to ban all octylphenol ethoxylate detergents like Triton X-100 in new products at the beginning of the year as there is evidence that they negatively effect aquatic environments. Biodegradation produces a toxic aromatic hydrocarbon product (from the released octylphenol group) that mimics estrogen which interferes with the reproductive systems of fish. That said, they will still be available in N. America. I would use Tergitol 15-S-7 (Pareth-7) as a substitute in Europe. Never mix Tergitol with alcohol, as it causes rapid breakdown of the sufactant causing sticky precipitates to form.
The Ilford Ilfotol used to contain approximately 6% Triton X with a trace amount of a preservative to extend shelf life, good for cleaning records, but you would need to use 16 times more to achieve the same detergency as pure Triton. Due to the ban about to take effect, Ilford has already changed to a more bio-friendly surfactant, not sure which.
The PhotoFlo contains 5-10% Triton X, but also contains 25-30% Propylene Glycol which can leave a trace of sticky film on your record (sounds like the Kirmuss magic formula to me).
The Tergikleen guy knows very little about chemistry, and won't tell us what his "proprietary" formula contains. We can hope that it is Tergitol 15-S-7, or even better yet a blend of 15-S-3 & 15-S-9, but we just don't know. What we do know is that his recommended concentration level of 1ml per gallon, is way below other recommendations for using Tergitol products to clean records. It should be about 0.1% to 0.5%, lesser for lightly soiled or US machine, higher for heavy soiling and hand cleaning.
You are certainly on the right track, a high purity non-ionic surfactant in definitely the best way to go, and by adding a little pinch of quat (quaternary ammonium compound) you will never have a problem with static again.
I just needed to offer you a mighty thanks !!
A week ago I received my 500 ml bottle of TritonX-100, and it just works fabulously !!
I haven't tried any of the others, but this stuff just gets in there and loosens and cleans the grooves, and ultimately the sound improves .
I'm thrilled as I sit in my music room, cleaning, and listening to, records.
Thanks Again !!
🎩✌️💿
I may not have the equipment ( hearing and hi-fi kit ;-), to notice many of the improvements often mentioned, but really appreciate those who can. To this end I always rate these video’s highly.
Triton x-100 ordered👌
Here in Australia I use filtered tap water. We have excellent quality non hard, non recycled water and the filtering deals with any unlikely bacteria. Never had any issues with my ultrasonic cleaning.
Hi Paul
Thanks for this very interesting review. I am impressed by your hability to detect differences in sound.
I à used to clean my records in home made US machine with 20% alcohol 79 % of distilled water and 1% triton x100. And it works fine.
I tested today a prewash with distilled water and few drops of Triton x100 as you recommended.
I have to say improvement is very significant. I cleaned today records from 70s and they are dead silent after precleaning and cleaning.
So thank you very much for this advises.
Hi Paul, I just stumbled onto your channel today and found this video very informative. Nice to have an opinion on this subject with no invested interested on the brand, except your own money. I have already decided to buy the Tergikleen for my Ultrasonic Kirmuss cleaner. Well Done! Looks like I will be watching a lot more of your channel.
I don't even care what subject you'd be teaching, I'd attend every one of your lectures. Party on, man.
Thank you Anthony, very kind of you.
Hi Paul. I just came accross this very informative video. I have been using Mofi products for years but I am now keen to try one of the surfactanats that you reviewed, namely TergiKleen. Question, did you do a distilled water rinse after the cleaning as recommended? Using the TergiKleen would I still need to use a Mofi cleaner? Thanks, Dave.
Hi Paul. Subscriber here!👋🏼Thank you for another great and thorough video. Please can you update some of the UK links..they know longer work. Thanks. Best
I've just done a quick patch job - did I miss anything? Thanks for the heads up.
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks for that. I've checked the UK ones and they seem to work. I saw the Tergikleen advice and link on your website, so decided to buy direct from them in the US. Came in at just under £40 with the current exchange rate. How long did it take for yours to arrive.
Can't remember, to be honest. I don't recall fretting at all so it couldn't have been too long.
This is a wonderful review and very informative. Great work! I used Kodak PhotoFlo in my ultrasonic cleaner (1:200). I checked the MSDS (material safety data sheet) and the ingredients are Triton X100 and polyethylene glycol. Ilfotol uses a different surfactant (branched, ethoxylated isotridecanol) and a preservative. I was pleased with the result with PhotoFlo, with improved sound after the wash. Quieter and improved detail (both upper and lower frequencies). Most noticeably, the sound was more "relaxed" and the 3D soundstage/transparency definitely improved. I’ve ordered some Tergikleen to try as well as a new product from GrooveWasher, G-sonic which is claimed to be specific for ultrasonic record cleaning.
Just want to say thanks for putting out your videos, not sure people appreciate the work that is involved in the production, scripting, and production of RUclips videos. I appreciate your thoughts and perspective. Thank You!
That's very kind of you, many thanks :)
A little story regarding the importance of rinsing. Although you mentioned it, somehow, I still believed the manufacturer of my vacuum machine, in this case, the keith monk prodigy, and only used the liquid they provided. Now I cleaned two new LPs without prior listening to them without cleaning, and was surprised that they had incredible surface noise. I ordered the clear audio liquid I saw in your videos and cleaned them once more with the new liquid, but again terrible surface noise. I then ordered Ilfotol and bought some distilled water and did a solution of 0.03% as suggested by @Dave Denyer. I did one cleaning with the 0.03% Ilfotol solution on the Keith Monk using a new kind of cheap 15 EUR Kabuki Brush (thank you for this amazing tip) with the Ilfotol solution and one afterwards with another Kabuki Brush with distilled water only. What should I say. The results are really impressive. First of all the surface noises is almost gone, secondly the overall sound quality has improved a lot. Can’t wait until my Degritter MK2 is delivered here in Germany. Hopefully it will be before Christmas.
Thank you so much for making these videos.
The U.S. Library of Congress uses Tergotol (Tergikleen is the same exact formula) for all their archival cleanings.
There are different ways of deionising water - the best uses reverse osmosis (RO) This is the same tech as used in desalination and won’t contain bacteria. Ion exchange resins can also be used and these might potentially obtain some bacteria, but no more than might be found in drinking water. Surfactants can be used for cleaning - then we call them called soap or detergent!. Other types of surfactant have different properties. Cationic surfactants are often used as anti static agents which some record cleaners use. (Remember Permastat?) Surfactants are surface active. (Surfactant is a contraction of surface active agent). They stick to the surface of your record and help the water wet it and help it lift off any greasy deposits. Removing surfactants completely takes a lot of rinsing. Triton X is a non ionic surfactant and a mild detergent and emulsifier which should be perfectly safe to use. It will also kill any bacteria in the water. (But so would the 20% of isopropanol that I include in my solution... I know you would disapprove!)
Thanks for the extra info, Richard. Appreciate you taking the time. Although I reckon I'll stick with the system I mention in the vid. That said, there's lots of room for research here, as you have just confirmed :) Where I'm 'at' in terms of surfactants is merely one step on a long road, I'm sure. There will, no doubt, be updates to follow in the future.
Thank you for taking the time to do all of these great videos, Paul! You're very informative and detailed. I have decided it's time to get more serious about my record collection and take things to the next level. I have around 1000 LPs to clean so I've began building a cleaning station and I like your method of pre-treating the records with a surfactant solution. I was wondering, do you have a suggestion/opinion on method/timing? Does the pre-treatment surfactant solution perform differently if submersed in or applied directly to the vinyl and spread evenly with a goat hair brush? Have you noticed a difference between how long you wait before moving to the next step to wash? I'm curious if leaving the record moist with the surfactant solution for a few minutes helps to loosen any particles so that they come off easier when washing? Or should I be cautious not to let the record dry after applying the surfactant solution, before washing? This is important for me to understand since I plan on doing quite a few I want to be as efficient with my time as possible. Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide! :)
Check out my own vinyl cleaning guide. It's generally aimed at manual cleaning but if you read up until the Disco Antistat enters the scene then all of that, to that point is relevant to the Degritter. Give me a shout if you need further info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan excellent write up paul! its a lenghtly read but great,but was wondering how distilled water and the use of 1% alchohol lower the surface tension?
Hi Frank, the surfactant is there is lower surface tension. Alcohol is used to do part of the actual cleaning. Specifically the oils and related residues which it melts. Cavitation actually removes it. Distilled water is just the carrier for the whole process. Oh and thank you :)
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks paul!! so if i"m correct distilled water and the alcohol does lower the surface tension even without the use of a surfactant but not as much i assume
Thanks Paul. I am going to try this. The concerns that I have are:. Does the Glycol build up in the rinse solution? Or does the alcohol break it down completely? Also, the Tergikleen: At which point does the rinsing solution become saturated with Tergikleen? How many rinses can you do before the solution should be changed because of saturation of Glycol/Tergikleen. Also, how many cycles do you set the Degritter to do (1-4), before going into Drying mode? Thank you.
Check put my Guide here and that should help you out in terms of your concerns: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/ This is for manual cleaning but the vinyl prep is till valid of a Degritter. For now? Using my ratios, the alcohol breaks it down. But don't forget the final rinse. Re. saturation, I change my bath every 30 cleans (depending on how mucky your vinyl is) and that still provides effective cleans. I do a heavy cycle with a drying mode tagged on the end of around 6-7 min.
Based on a lot of research I did myself but especially your lenghty video about the Degritter I ordered one myself. Now I understood from this and the Degritter video that the use of Surfactants is done before you put the vinyl in the Degritter. I understand from this video which surfactants are best to use, but what I do not yet understand is how exactly you apply it to the vinyl??? Maybe a stupid question, but I would still like it answered…..😉
Check out the vinyl prep section of this Guide for the answer to that one: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Interesting deep dive into surfactants. I use Triton X-100. About 3 years ago I bought a gallon of 100%. I clean a lot of records, maybe 50 to 75 a month and still have about half a gallon left. I use a manual basin so I use a lot. First off I reduce the Triton from 100 to 10 percent by taking a gallon jug of distilled water and pouring out 13 oz and pouring in 13 oz of the triton. Then I take another gallon of distilled water and pour out 18 oz. I pour 4 oz of the 10 percent triton into the jug and then pour 14 oz of 70 percent of IPA. That gets me to a one gallon cleaning solution which I use primarily to fill my vinyl styl basin but also put into a spray bottle depending on how I'm approaching the record cleaning. I can usually clean between 65 and 100 records with a gallon. I haven't heard anything regarding Triton being banned in the US but by the time I finally use up that gallon of concentrate perhaps it will be, should take another couple of years.
Great vid! I am using a Humminguru w/1 drop of Tergikleen on a 5 min bath, and then a second bath w/distilled water only + 10 min dry. I am going starting to test diluted solution as the producer suggests and see if there was a difference (my guess is no lol). reservoir
Outstanding review, Paul. Have shared this with friends who need considered advice re. cleaning and I look forward to the three parter.
Like you I found the Degritter solution, used in their machine as directed, to do a good job of cleaning but things became rather opaque. I also have a reaction to it in terms of heart arrhythmia so, for me an obvious big strike against it. However I tried rinsing it. I'm a huge proponent of rinsing, even on products that claim not to need it. I set up a fan blowing the fumes away from me and did a before, then an "as directed", then a thorough multi step rinse. The recommended use running one cycle (heavy) and then listening was dull. I did two distilled water rinses (I have 3 tanks) then a lab grade water rinse on my vacuum machine. I really like it. I'm doing experiments with my Kirmuss I've used for two years, the new Degritter and a Pro-Ject vacuum machine. Each does some things well. The Degritter with Tergikleen seems the most open but sometimes seems slightly thin. I did. try the A.I. US product and it's OK. I like their products for vacuum machines. The Degritter was rinsed has really nice solidity and midrange textures, seems a bit more fleshed out than the Tergikleen but it is more open with a more expansive soundstage. It's almost like pick the one that suits a particular LP..... That way lies madness. But... what if I followed the Degritter/rinse with a Tergikleen rinse? Or tried the Triton X-100, which I have on order.
Polysorbate 80 is better than the muddy ILFOTOL and is very cheap 10.50 GBP for a litre. It ain't thin sounding... Tergikleen is piss takingly xpensive
Great information! Based on your test results, that I had no way of doing myself, I'm glad that I had already purchased Tergikleen prior to this. Also, when you put together the videos for manual and rcm using these surfactants...will you be using the same alcohol & distilled water cleaning solution for each video? Or will you be testing with multiple cleaning solutions? (Not sure if you plan on doing comparisons or just general proper method of use for manual & rcm)
Hi Jacob - many thanks :) For the rest? I'll be utilising the best combination of liquids and surfactants for each process and finding the best combo within that. That's why I did the alcohol video (see elsewhere) and this surfactant video now, to narrow down those variables.
Loved this one! I got recommended L'art du son record cleaning fluid when I began this hobby and have been using it with my ultrasonic cleaning system ever since. Have you had any experience with this cleaning fluid? I'm curious how it compares to just a pure surfactant. Thanks for the content!
Hi Jonathan - when the Loricraft RCM was my go-to cleaning machine, L'Art du Son was my go-to liquid but I no longer use it, I'm afraid. If it works for you, that's great though. I wouldn't personally compare that with surfactant, the latter is something I would use with a cleaning liquid, as an adjunct.
Great set of videos! Thank you very much. My Degritter arrives on Friday along with surfactant. Once you clean your albums and put them away in a new inner sleeve is there anything else that you do to your albums before you play them on another day? Do you just take them out and play them or do you usa a anti static brush or anything like that? Thanks.
Yes
Another incredible video. I have ordered a Disco Anti stat at your recommendation, and I have decided to go for the x-100 as it’s cheap. What should I apply the water/surfactant mix to the vinyl with?
Please read my cleaning guide here for more on that. Give me a shout later if you need more info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
That was extremely detailed and helpful. My application is a Spin Clean bath followed by a Record Doctor vacuuming. Earlier today a video discussed using 2-3 drops Dawn dish soap in one gallon (3.785L) distilled water with 7.4-14.7ml white distilled vinegar. White vinegar was described as a rinse agent. What are your thoughts, please?
I've sent you a link to my own Guide as per my reply elsewhere, from my site which includes plenty of background info, hopefully that helps. Soap is to be avoided because it leaves a residue that is tough to remove from vinyl so the stylus ends up playing it which veils detail (if you've ever smelt that "lemon fresh!" advertised smell on your dishes, you're smelling residue) while vinegar is not a pure substance even in that form (I wouldn't use vodka for the same reason) so I wouldn't chance that either.
Hi, Paul
Love the channel, such a great resource. I'm using Ilfotol as my surfatant of choice using 1 part Ilfotol to 200 parts distilled water. What ratio of Propylene Glycol would you recommend if I added it to the solution? Cheers!
H Andrew - I'd advise checking out my Vinyl Cleaning Guide on my website first. See if that helps further: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Paul, I have a Kirmuss Audio Ultrasonic Cleaner. I do have Tergikleen as a surfactant, but want to mix it and use it correctly. The Kirmuss Audio uses close to two gallons of distilled water. Would that be 20 drops of Tergikleen? Or, should the Tergikleen be brushed I to the groves? If so, how do you mix it with glycol? Should 40mL of Isopropyl Alcohol be mixed o to the bath too? How many 5 minute cycles? How should the record be rinsed as it would have to be in a separate unit such as a spin clean. It would be amazing if you could create a step by step video on using Tergikleen with the Kirmuss Audio Ultrasonic. Thanks!
Hi Michael - checkout my manual guide to vinyl cleaning. The first part, the preparation section can be applied to ultrasonics too. Hopefully that helps. Give me a shout if you ned more help: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
With Biopharm triton x-100 how much do you use per liter of water? At what temperature do you run your ultrasonic?
In general, surfactants, ion guns, stylus cleaners, carbon fiber brushes, platter mats, micro fiber cloths, glue, disc flatteners, cleaning spray, disc washers, etc, etc…….just put your record on top of a Van Der Graaff generator. That’ll do the trick. 🤯🤯🤯(If it doesn’t try a Tesla Coil.)
My unproved thesis goes: Any post-cleaning residue would be in the most "hard to get at" nooks & crannies of the record groove's inner-wall protrusions & nodules, those nooks & crannies which water's surface-tension would protect from wetting thoroughly on an initial cleaning if a surfactant was not used. So would it not be worthwhile putting a half or quarter dose of it in the last post-cleaning rinse? ...based on the fact that the surfactant free rinse water's surface- tension would impedes the rinse, just as it would have impeded the initial clean if it were not used ...without getting too Howard Hughs about it! Just a thought. I have used 50% Isopropyl alcohol with distilled water damped onto fine camera cleaning brushes & lint-free cloth to try & wipe away what you cannot see in the groove (but I've not soacked L.P.s in it) for removing blobs of "i know not" on s/h L.P.s but i alway found extenting playing afterwards clears sometimes all, sometimes less of the grunge from whatever was dropped onto my s/h buys. I guess a stylus is just the right shape for scraping out whatever is laying where the dismond scrapes across, but it make your stylus caked in near-baked on filth quickly, as you mentioned. I'm thinking of buying a cheap linear tracking t/table with repeat, to leave dirtier sounding s/h buys, playing all night long per side, ive got many absolute fave's that cannot be got on CDs but need deep cleaning. My friends review on Chinese made Ultra Sound cleaners have not been good at all. But that was 10 or 15 years ago
Hi Paul. Excellent overall explaination. I've read somewhere to avoid using either Tergikleen or Ethanol as both are highly toxic. Not sure if this is true?
Isopropyl Alcohol is also toxic to some degree, can cause dizziness if inhaled in quantity, is dangerous on an ecological level and is highly flammable and dangerous to store - yet that substance is in just about ever cheap and cheerful vinyl cleaning liquid concoction currently for sale on the Internet. Treated with respect and used properly, all surfactants and vinyl cleaning solutions are useful, if not highly effective, in removing muck and grime from the vinyl groove. You just need to apply common sense, care and attention.
Hi Paul, great videos and insight for my USCleaning journey. I am going to use a pre wash method of 999ml of Deioised water and 1ml Triton X-100. My question is do i just cover the record surfaces and then pop it into the USC or should I scrub the solution with a brush to agitate it a bit just like a standard RCM method?
Check out my Guide here - it can still be adapted, even if you use a RCM or ultrasonic cleaner: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Pulling my records out of storage so they can be listened to again, so I had to start relearning all I ever knew about surfactants. Thanks for this video.
QUESTION: Can't we make good surfactants at home?
I use Kodak Photo-flo 200. Used it for negatives for years and now use it for cleaning vinyl. Recommended.
Thanks for your comment, Paul. Yes, I've looked at this one in the past. Photo Flo consist of Glycol (which I recommend for all vertical cleaners - I refer to it in my Degritter and Disco Antistat reviews and my website-based vinyl cleaning Guide) plus Triton x100 which I include in this video and test as a separate substance. That said, I no longer recommend Triton (see the warning in the Comments) because it has been found to be dangerous to wildlife. It's now banned in Europe.
Where are the links to the video you mentioned of how to use a spin clean and how to use an ultrasonic?
Check out this folder which features a host of vinyl care, etc articles. Video is included within: theaudiophileman.com/category/features/vinyl-care/
I came to your video because I had the idea of using Ilfotol but now I am interested in the Tergikleen. No matter how many times I watch the video I still have this question
I I am using a manual record clean like the Spin Clean and plan on using Tergikleen do I still use the spin cleanfluid in addition to the Tergikleen?
Or does the Tergikleen replace this?
Thanks
Hi Paul and fantastic video! I am about to get a Degritter and looking to upgrade on the cleaning agent that comes with it. At the same time, I want to keep things simple and not have to do a separate rinse cycle. That being the case, what would you recommend? Would the Ifotol be the way to go and if so, how many mil of fluid would one use to the water tank? Sorry if this is written up somewhere and if so, please point me to a link and I will go and read! Thanks in advance!
See if this helps you, first Vincenzo: ruclips.net/video/NN9X1Op8eVo/видео.html
I was just going to add a comment thanking you for this informative video which has helped me produce stunning results by applying a surfactant prior to my normal Disco Antistat (distilled water/alcohol) wash cycle. I can't believe how much positive difference it has made. Unfortunately I had not previously looked at your comments page and seen the top comment about Triton x100 (which I used after buying on eBay). Does anyone know why it is considered so dodgy?
I’m confused (it’s not hard).
So I’ve purchased a Pro-Ject VC-E2 RCM.
So based on your video, I’d need to:
1. Cover the record in a Surfactant/Dis Water mix first
2. Suck up Sufactant Mix with the RCM
3. Cover record with normal Record Cleaning Fluid
4. Suck up Cleaning Fluid with RCM
5. Put record though a distilled water only bath
Is that right? I really don’t want to get it wrong :(
Check out my Guide here, have a read, give me a shout if you have problems: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-pt-2-rcms/
Hi and thanks for the great video! A quick question for you. I am currently using Ilfotol, since I had already opened a container. Do you feel that a distilled water rinse is needed after cleaning in diluted Ilfotol? I know that this product is supposed to offer anti static properties as well. I'm not sure if I would be doing myself any favors by doing a final rinse. I haven't been able to find any reliable information to determine if any Ilfotol residue is a concern or not. Thanks in advance for your advice!
Yes. A rinse is recommended.
Hi Paul. I clean my records with a record cleaning fluid, a mold release agent . A work turntable (direct drive) and a record cleaning machine. Then to finish off, a bottle of record preservative. i do this to both used records and brand new ones. If this is not done there will be irreversible damage to the record after the first play.
Just watched your last comments - If we assume that neither Tergitol or Triton is adding anything to the actual sound in the groove, it would imply that Tergikleen is revealing things in the highs better, Triton in the lows. So what if you layer them? More to the point, clean with one rinse, then clean and rinse with the other. The best of both worlds? Disastrous? I'm going to try it. Having extra tanks for the Degritter makes it simpler. Sorry to keep bugging you. I'm really engaged in figuring out how I want to do it and then forget about the process and get on with music. Thanks
@@rabarebra I've moved on since then. Mainly to a Klaudio cleaner, far better in my view than the Degritter. If I feel that deep cleaning is necessary on a given album I prewash and thoroughly rinse on a vacuum machine first. The Klaudio is nother but distilled water. The filter on it is the size of a beer can as opposed to the pencil eraser one on the Degritter. The sound is great and less surface noise than anything I've used, including the Kirmuss and Degritter. I want nothing in the grooves when I'm finished, or as close to it as I can get.
What is a pound and how many drops are there in a milliliter? Also, I'd mark those drinking water bottles of solution in case there are any children or engineers nearby. I mistakenly bought tergitol 15-s-15 while 7 or a mix of 3 and 9 is recommended. There are over 20 formulations if I remember correctly for all types of cleaning and production. Im going to try ilfotol rather than tergitol as I'm frustrated that 7 is so hard to find. In the short research I've done I'm once again fascinated at industry and chemistry. How specialized products are and 1000s of them out there. I wonder how many people appreciate that when they think they have everything figured out.
Thank you very much for this and all your other videos. They are really excellent - balanced and clear on your opinions. Too many You Tube videos avoid critical opinions - so thank you. One question. When you say “applied directly to the record surface” can you say how you do this please (or is there a video I’m missing).
Thanks Clyde and no probs. You can apply the surfactant via a pipette like these in the here link: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00IZOCRB8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
These are what I use to apply my surfactant to the vinyl surface.
Great video thanks - just found your site and subscribed. Quiock question re Distilled water: is De-Ionised water suitable?
Distilled is preferable - de-ionised retains bacteria.
@@TheAudiophileMan Thanks Paul.
I understood that I have 20 drops of triton in 2 liters of water but how much of this solution should I add in 6 liters of distilled water in the ultrasonic machine ?????????????
I wouldn't add surfactant to the bath itself. Only to the vinyl surface directly. In a bath? It loses efficiency. And I now don't recommend Triton which was banned in Europe after my video was published because it's harmful to nature/wildlife. For more info, please see my Vinyl Cleaning guides. Part 1 is here: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/. It focuses on manual cleaning but the vinyl preparation and general principles can be applied to ultrasonic cleaning. Part 2 is devoted to RCMs. I have yet to sort Part 3 for ultrasonics. As I say though, the vinyl prep for Port 1 will be in Part 3 as well.
Hi Paul,
Thanks for this very interesting video.
I have L'art Du Son cleaning fluid and a Okki Nokki machine. I'm willing to try surfactant, and I was wondering if I could mix it directly with my l'art du son - distilled water bottle, or should I keep the surfactant in another bottle?
It would be easier if I could mix it all in one bottle, but I don't want to do anything wrong!
Thanks a lot
I wouldn't mix L'Art du Son, Joseph. You need to apply the surfactant directly to the vinyl before cleaning. Once done, you clean with the L'Art du Son.
@@TheAudiophileMan Ok Thanks. I'll try it and will tell you what I think of it!
Yesterday I read an article about cleaning solutions and surfactant by Michael Framer, and he claimed that different solutions/surfactants cannot sound different, since it's vacuumed before playing. What is your take on this? You seemed to think different on your video
Thanks again for your videos and articles, I really enjoy it every time!
I'm not in the business of engaging in critical debate with other reviewers. If you read my opinions on my site and view my videos on this channel, you will be easily able to gauge my opinions on the matter.
@@TheAudiophileMan Oh I'm sorry, engaging a debate was certainly not my goal here. I just wanted to know why you think differently. I'll go back to your website as suggested!
Sorry again for the misunderstanding, have a good evening and a good week-end
Joseph
Hi Paul, I have just bought the Degriiter and am getting ready to put my first lot of LP’s through the process. My head is spinning a bit from all the videos and articles so I am hoping you can confirm the recipes you recommend from your research. I can readily get Illfotol in Australia but Triton x100 and Tergiklean are hard to get. For the surfactant mix I think your recommendation is 1 part Illfotol to 200 parts distilled water. Do you also add glycol to this? If so, can you suggest the mix. For the rinse your recommendation is 7 parts isoalcohol to 100 parts distilled water. Could you please confirm your recommendation. Thanks for your help
Hey Paul, I recently acquired the tergikleen which really sounds great. like your video states I'm getting excellent high mids and treble but I feel like I'm missing some lows. I'm thinking of trying the triton x-100. Have you tried using both on the same record, did that maybe bring up the lows and maintain the amazing clarity up top? Or did the sound signature change to whichever cleaner you used last?
I haven’t but a viewer has done that experiment on my behalf and declared the result a sonic mess. So make of that what you will :)
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks!
Dear Paul, love your RUclips channel, but don't always have the time to watch enough of it as I am running my own business. I am about to purchase a Degritter on the basis of your review and my own research. However, I am a little perplexed by the procedure you recommend for it. I am also a bit unsure about what liquids to purchase. Is there a document I can download that will deal with these issues? Keep up the good work.
Thank you, Arthur and yes, there sure is. Read this Guide and I'm sure it will help. It's aimed at manual cleaning but everything before the actual use of the Disco Antistat is valid for the Degritter. The materials used, vinyl preparation, etc...
@@TheAudiophileMan Which guide - can't see a link to one?
@@lions903 Here you go: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan Hi, just read your helpful guide. Any tips for applying the surfactant to the second side of the record prior to putting it into the Degritter? Do you just flip the record over and lay the wet side on a protective surface like a microfibres towel or do you avoid the first (wet) side coming into contact with anything somehow?
How about Tergitol vs L'art Du son? Also, how long should you leave the cleaning fluid on the vinyl before drying?
They're really two different things. L'Art du Son was my 'go to' when I operated a RCM a while back and its a good general cleaner for those machines. Tergitol is not recommended as a stand alone cleaner. It's there to assist and aid cleaning along with other hardware and liquid tools. I would always add a rinse cycle to remove all chemicals from the vinyl surface before drying.
Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with misting/frosting on records caused by those horrible thick PVC sleeves.
You could try a surfactant-based clean. Ultrasonic would be best but a Disco Antistat would be worth a go. Again, surfactant-based.
Hi Paul, helful review as always. I've bought some Triton X1 could you confirm the mix ratio with distilled water before brushing onto a vinyl? I was intending to apply this prior to cleaning in a Knosti using water and isopropyl. Thanks
I think I added 20 drops (but they are very small drops from the bottle's dispenser) per litre.
Hi ,
Ok I finally received my Tergikleen and found my distilled water! What am I missing to clean my vinyls with the Degritter as you please? Should I also buy the Ilford Ilfotol? What alcohol do you use please? Thank you !
Check out my Cleaning Guide for more help on this: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Thank you , I've been using the Kodak without noticing it's expiration date is well long past . Ordered Triton X-100 for longer shelf life . Will refrigeration harm it or extend it's shelf life ?
I don't recommend Triton (as per my pinned comment) because it's now been found harmful to wildlife but, to answer your question, I am not wholly sure if refrigeration has an effect because I'm not sure how exactly it breaks down and if temperature, etc is part of that break down process.
One thing, talking to others, I now have a feeling that 'use by' dates on this sort of stuff are rather conservative and that liquids like this last an awful lot longer than the date on the bottle would have it.
Great video. Which mix of Tergitol are you using in the Degritter cleaning process? Thx.
Can you clarify that question please? Not sure what you mean by "which mix".
@@TheAudiophileMan In the Vinyl Cleaning Guide pt 1 you mentioned using a surfactant that included Tergitol and Propylene Glycol, if I recall correctly. In this video you mentioned Tergitol (10 drops per liter) only. What is your pre-treatment for the Degritter cycle? I am guessing it might be Tergitol (10 drops per liter) but not sure.
I use Glycol for upright cleaners - check out this Guide. Most of it applies to ultrasonics too: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan So in the Degritter cycle you only use Tergitol with a goat hair brush?
@@miguelbarrio I use a Kabuki brush on the vinyl surface to push the Tergitol/glycol mix into the grooves (which I think I detailed in the Degritter review)..
I have a question I’m planning on buying a Spin Clean or something similar. Could any of these surfactants be used with a entry level wet cleaner and make a difference in the sound quality?
Hi Daniel - yes, check out this Guide for more info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
I have been using Triton for some time now. After watching your video it sounds like I am using way too much. I have been putting a cap full (approx 10 ml) per 2 gallons of distilled water. The Triton I have is 99% so it is slightly thick and I usually warm the water so it will mix in easier. How many ml would you recommend or what would you dilute to and how much of the dilution would you use per gallon of water. I bought 16oz of the x-100 from Amazon for 26.00 US. It was listed as Biopharm Triton X100. Thanks for your informative video.
Hi Mark - you may find my Cleaning System of use, incidentally: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/ Let me measure my Triton here. Be back ASAP on that.
Hello Paul. I have used 'Ilford Ilfostop' on my vinyl records.i used 50ml on 950ml of distilled water making 1 litre. I put it in 'disco antistatic' manual cleaning machine. Turned it 6 times back and forth. I have tested it without rinsing and also rinsing in stilled water. It sounds bad with all the snaps and crackles through various records. Not sure what I am do wrong. These are new records that sounded OK before the clean but now they sound much worse. I have used distilled water to clean the stylus but it still sounds bad. Please can advise of what I am doing wrong. Thank you. Darin.
Give my Guide a bit of a read, and then give me a shout if you have issues after that: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Thank you paul. I have read some of it and I think and watched the video footage again and I have been doing it wrong. I have been diluting it in the the bath rather than doing it separately on the record surface. I put 50 ml of Ilford into 950ml of distilled water into the disco antistatic manual cleaning bath. Will I do my vinyl any damage by doing this? Thanks. Darin.
The Cardigans "paralyzed" begins as follows:
"This is where your sanity gives in
And love begins "- I find that cleaning vinyl records is a topic where one can end up in such a borderland. Your considerations about Kodak Photo-Flo and any bacteria in battery water might give such a hint? When I listen to a freshly washed record, I must admit that all too often I sit and listen to remnants of debris rather than indulge in music. It's a curse there. Thank you for an interesting video, driven by your unique enthusiasm and Renaissance curiosity - as usual. This was very helpful. I have just bought an ultrasound-based system of the simpler kind, and am trying to find a good cleaning routine.
When it comes to the experience of sound, I am becoming less and less objective. I have realized that I am a being who takes in the world in a diverse way. Measurements and forms can rarely give exhaustive explanations of why I experience a product or system the way I do - even if though that side of the issue is obviously important. But as a technically interested person, I still become very curious about how it can be that one surfactant can have good properties in the bass range, while the other excels at the higher end of the frequency spectrum. What is going on? Can we see this in the grooves with a microscope? Is there something with the mechanical contact between diamond and groove? I must admit that it goes a little beyond my comprehension. But, by all means. I'm not denying that you may be right.
Thanks for your thoughts, Bjarne - the difference in sound quality can result in differences in the groove content. The stylus is dumb. It plays what it touches. Simple as that. If you clean the groove the stylus will play what's underneath and the sound will differ accordingly. It should, at any rate. What I suspect via Triton X-100 - and it's an increasing suspicion - is that this surfactant leaves a thin layer of residue which 'adds' to the bass. The stylus plays the groove and the residue. Something that Tergitol removes. With Tergitol, the sound is slowly revealed. That happens with Triton too but then bass is added and really, nothing should be added. That's my thoughts, so far at any rate.
@@TheAudiophileMan Sounds like a very plausible explanation. Thanks.
I’m confused about your use of surfactant. I use the Degritter with the Audio Intelligent Enzymatic concentrate for ultrasonic cleaning machines. I also use all of the other formulas from Audio Intelligent with my VPI 16.5 cleaning machine as a prewash. However, the records washed on the VPI are vacuumed. All records are dry when added to the Degritter. Are you adding surfactant to the record and then adding to the Degritter while “wet” with surfactant? Is this in addition to another formula that is mixed in the Degritter? Lastly, have you tested the Audio Intelligent formulas? Are these formulas “surfactants”? I purchase these through Osage Audio Products.
Audio Intelligent? Help me out in this one please, is this an enzyme-based system? I’m not that familiar with it.
Triton x Brings me back to dissolving cell surface membranes in a bio chemistry lab :) It’s amazing how many surfactant there are and the types, usually based on charges
I think that's how they all essentially work: think washing up liquids, soaps and shampoos - they all lower surface tension and many then dissolve grease. A lot of household cleaning agents use "anionic surfactants" in their ingredients lists
Paul great video. I own a kirmuss ultra sonic machine and don't want to spend $85 US dollars for 300ml of the cleaning solution. If I were to make my own with tergitol and ethyl glycol mix with 300ml of distilled water. How much of the 2 chemicals would I add to the water? A couple drops of each? I would just refill the spray bottle the kirmess comes with and spray the record directly. Just not sure how much chemical is to much. The kirmuss solution says it is 99% distilled water and 1% surfactant and ethyl glycol. Thanks for any advice. Cheers
This is my manual cleaning method recommendation but the early parts of it easily apply to ultrasonic too - the vinyl preparation parts. Hope this helps: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks very much. This is very helpful indeed.
I live in Brazil and was able to grab the Mofi super record wash while I was in the US. I really loved the results! Now I ran out of it and don’t want to pay 60 dollars for shipping (outrageous!!!!). So I wonder if those methods you’ve taught in the video are as effective as mofi’s super record wash and if it’s suitable for vacuum cleaner machines. Thanks again, Paul!
Hi Diego - check out my website guide, it might help: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Great video, Paul, question, what would be the result if one mixed tegikleen and triton x-100, in proportionally reduced amounts, together and used in record cleaning fluid. Just a thought since they both seem good but different. enjoy the music
Good question and I have no idea, Peter. My instincts say that they would combat each other and the result would be inconclusive because of that but that's only my hunch.
@@TheAudiophileMan Fair enough, i have no idea either, i asked a 70yr old chemical scientist guy i sell records to about it too, and his comment was that he had no idea either, so we are going to get some tergikleen and triton and experiment on some junk albums to see. Tergikleen is a mix of tergitol 15-2 and 15-9 to make teergitol 15.7, which is ideal for records but hard to get because apparently the U.S. military has commandeered it for their use. He feels a mix of terikleen and triton might be good, but without trialing it he has no idea. will let you know....
Superb information. I have a bath type cleaner and have backed the Kickstarter Humminguru ultrasonic cleaner.
Edit: purchased the Triton x1000 and used in my Disco Knosti bath cleaner. I cleaned my old Van Morrison Veedon Fleece. Unbelievable improvement! Best £8 upgrade ever!
Hiya, please can you tell me where you found the Triton x1000? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
You might like to look into reverse osmosis water withe a tds of 0.4, {tds is total desolved solids} from a tropical fish shop and is cheap, and is maybe the most pure water.
So there's an argument against surfactants- they allow the cleaner/water to get into the grooves easier yes, but they can also allow the dirt to settle back into the grooves before you get a chance to rinse/dry. MOFI makes a cleaner that advertises 'high surface tension' for this purpose- after wet scrubbing the liquid 'suspends' the dirt on the surface where it can be wiped away easier. This theory does make sense, IMO your cleaning brush should be able to work any cleaner deep into the grooves as you apply pressure. Any thoughts?
Hi Adam - reinfection of dirt into the grooves is a problem with all cleaning technologies, techniques, liquids, tools, etc. It's not a surfactant-only problem. The emphasis is on you to do the best you can to minimise it. Better tools can reduce that reinfection. For example, ultrasonic cleaners do a better job than RCMs which do a better job than manual cleaners. But following a considered manual treatment regime can, in itself, reduce the problem. See my latest Guide, recently published on my site for manual cleaning (a video version should follow soon): theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Voice crack @9:23
But seriously this is an awesome video, extremely comprehensive and helpful! Thank you for making it!
Do you have a video for cleaning and rinsing vinyl for an ultrasonic machine?
Hi Jerry - have you seen my Vinyl Cleaning Guides on my website? (theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/) They are under the Vinyl Care menu. Each Guide is...long but does feature an illustrated section to prepare your vinyl for cleaning, tools and liquids needs, proportions/quantities, etc. Part 1 is aimed at manual cleaning and Part 2 is aimed at RCMs. I've still to sort Part 3 aimed at Ultrasonics. Saying that, the vinyl prep is the same for all three so please check that out. You might want to look at my Degritter video on this channel for more ultrasonic info in terms of my approach to cleaning on such a machine.
Check or grocery store or pharmacy for distilled water. All pharmacies in Canada carry distilled water and my grocery store does also.
Hi, i know, it‘s a bit late, but did you ever try the Groovewasher G-sonic?
Regards , Raoul
I've heard of it but never used it. I'll make a note, thanks.
Hi, whats your cleaning regime with the degriter whilst using tergikleen please
Although this website Guide is aimed at manual cleaners, the preparation of the record and the core techniques are the same for my Degritter use - give me a shout if you need more info: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Gary Numan Cars was my first album ever. Maybe around 1979'ish.
I may have missed this- but in reviewing the Audio Desk it is mentioned the product contains cleaning fluid. The pure surfactants are rated , but if it is only a surfactant (and here is what I may be forgetting from earlier) what is the cleaner/ cleaning solution being used with them?
I don't know. No-one outside of Audiodesk knows, to be honest. So I had to work it out for myself either from experience or from cryptic interviews with people in and around the company.
Honestly? It looks, smells and acts like a surfactant. And when you talk about ultrasonic cleaning, there is no 'only'. Surfactant is everything.
Without surfactant, you cut the cleaning efficiency in half. Cavitation is your 'cleaning liquid'. That is, distilled water and bubbles. The right surfactant allows that to happen. It pushes that process closer to the groove. So buying the right surfactant is critical and there are plenty of superior liquids out there over and above the 'secret' one supplied by Audiodesk.
That companies who supply their own ultrasonic hardware fail to provide superior surfactants is not new, incidentally. I don't rate the one supplied by Degritter either :)
@@TheAudiophileManThank you for the fast and detailed reply. I guess what I am wondering, and did not articulate well, is should the Tergikleen be used with a cleaning solution for say a Spin Clean cleaning or can it be used by itself in distilled water? Thanks again
No probs and...ok, I see now. I would only use distilled water and 7% alcohol in the bath. Then add Tergikleen mixed with Glycol, brushed onto the vinyl surface, then pop that into the ultrasonic machine itself. Nothing else. I would bin the Audio Deck liquid.
For manual cleaning such as Spin Clean? Check out my vinyl cleaning guide here (which focuses on the Disco Antistat but can be used with the Spin Clean): theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileManThank you!!!
Paul, Based largely on your recommendation I have just bought a Degritter . I've used it for the first time today. My question for you is regarding the use of cleaning solutions with this machine. The importer here in the United States says he uses only distilled water in his machine. No other cleaning solution. Based on your research, what do you recommend as a best practice? Lab grade or other very pure distilled water only or add the supplied cleaning solution to it or some other surfactant? Thank you!
Hi Arshad - in broad terms (I hope to provide more detailed website reviews and RUclips videos later), I use distilled water and 7% alcohol in that bath. On the vinyl itself, I use a Tergitol surfactant and Glycol mixed into that. The latter keeps the Tergitol in the grooves because gravity wants to pull it off :) That's why I use 7% alcohol, to melt the Glycol off the grooves. If I wasn't using Glycol, I'd only need 1% alcohol to do the job. You don't need much alcohol and too much is aggressive to the disc.
I know...all of that sounds very confusing but I hope to explain all soon. You're welcome to ask questions if you need to, of course.
@@TheAudiophileMan thanks very much Paul! Happy new year. Do you think regular distilled water from the grocery store or pharmacy it's OK, or should one use laboratory or reagent grade distilled water?
I have been cleaning my records in the spin clean with its default fluid then running them through again with distilled water to rinse. How much improvement could I get by applying the tritonx (that one is much cheaper on ebay) first?
Well I talk about the sonic benefits of that product in this video and the written version on my site so my thoughts are right there. Applying a surfactant directly to a vinyl surface is recommended.
i use the Amazon Boundless spray bottle, alcohol free, and obviously, directly sprayed onto the record, then wipe off with towel. I don't want to spend the $$$ on a machine, so I wonder how to just use one of the surfactants?
Did you think of testing a common surfactant such as Dishwasher Rinse Aid. Ideally a non-perfumed one. But the main active ingredient is a surfactant.
Absolutely not, Julian. There's far too many other chemicals in those things which don't help at all. Please avoid.
Tergikleen recommends 10-20 drops per gallon (I guess us gallon 3,8l) => 3-5 drops/liter and you used 10 drops/liter. How com did you use so much more cleaning fluid that were recommended?
Trial and error and sound testing afterwards. But you're welcome to use less if you wish, of course. Also, just so I don't paint myself into a corner here, that's where I'm at right now. I try to tweak and test constantly so may change that in the future depending on other variables.
Great review, Tergitol is available on eBay in the UK, 5ml of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 5ml of Tergitol 15-S-9 for £5. The seller does suggest that 2 drops of each to be added to 2 Litres of a 4 : 1 mix of distilled water and rubbing alcohol! It does sound a bit heavy on the Isopropyl...
The seller recommends that no alcohol is used because it destroys the tergitol.
Here's my Guide for manual cleaning - although it can easily be adapted for RCM and ultrasonic cleaning too: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/ Any questions, pleases shout.
Did you end up doing the Part 2 video on how to use surfactants with ultrasonic cleaners?
Do you mean a vinyl cleaning 'how to'? Not yet. Recently published Part 1, manual cleaning, on my site. RCMs will form Part 2 and Ultrasonics will be Part 3.
Hello, would you ad a few drops of any of the surfactants to the water as in the Humminbird ?
I find adding surfactant to a ultrasonic bath is good - it does help - but it's not as efficient as applying it, diluted, directly to the vinyl surface and facing that surfactant into the grooves with a Kabuki brush. Check out this Guide, the first - what - 14 steps I think, also applies to ultrasonic cleaners: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
Excellent video, thank you! Could you comment on the Nitty Gritty FIRST rv as a treatment to new records or records in really bad shape? Thank you
I have yet to test this one, Italo but it should work well as it's enzyme based.
Hi Paul, matbe I have lost some points but I want to ask because I have a Degritter since July 20. How do You apply the surfactant on the surface of the vinyl before inserting in the cleaning machine? Do you keep it in your fingers or do you use some particular tool? My concern is that liquid may flow from the disc before being inserted into the machine.
Thanks
Lorenzo
Hi Lorenzo - no, that's my fault. I haven't addressed that yet. You need to add Glycol to your surfactant which will keep the latter in the grooves when vertical. I will be addressing this in a forthcoming video but, if you need info now, ask away.
Thanks for your reply. Do You think that a machine such as Spin Clean Vinyl (or similar) could be useful for applying the surfactant before inserting into Degritter?
I would apply directly via a pipette then push the liquid into the grooves using a Kabuki brush (lady's make up brush - very stubby bristles) in a spiral fashion, clockwise then anti-clockwise. Get your fingers right down the bristles to stiffen them up. That's a better method than a Spin Clean option.
Also cheaper... Last question (I promise): Should Glycol be added to the surfactant before applying to vinyl and stored in the same bottle or directly on the record? Could you tell me the dosage and maybe a type to buy online?
I would add 2 pipette droppers-worth of Glycol to the pipette bottle (each pipette will probably fill just over half the glass vial in actuality) and fill the rest with surfactant. Give the bottle a good shake and then the mixed surfactant is ready to apply to the vinyl surface.
Amazing video thank you I just saw a man washing his viynl in fairy liquid in his sink and one chap using WD40 I was shouting down my phone nooooooo
I'm using your formulas for diluted Tergikleen and Glycol found on your website. I'm unclear on the amount of glycol you add as you dispense two "half vial" amounts into the liter of diluted Tergikleen. If you were to guess what is that volume of glycol? Does the exact amount matter?
I would say between 1-2ml. You really want to stay in that zone, otherwise you’ll need more alcohol to melt it off and you don’t want to go above 7% really.
Thank you so much. Just re-watched it.
I followed the Tergikleen link and there are large postage and customs charges to add on.
Just received my bottle of Triton X 100 and the paper says "next test date 2031" so in 10 years .
One question are you saying that 20 micro drop[s for 2 litres ? so my question, do you transfer to a smaller spray bottle for clean records , spray on the records before it goes into the ultra sonic ??
Please see my pinned comment for more on Triton.
Great video. Thank you. How do you spread the diluted surfactant on the vinyl.?
Hi Gordon - hopefully this Guide will be of use: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/
@@TheAudiophileMan Thank you Paul.
to anyone else wondering, as I was.....the answer is . .a kabuki brush!
HOW MUCH DROPS OF TRITON X 100 WOULD I PUT IN A 10LITRE ULTRASONIC CLEANER BEFORE START OF CLEANING PROCESS THANKS IN ADVANCE
You mention that the first product contains no alcohol, making it safe to use... I have heard many channels recommend using alcohol and distilled water. What about alcohol do you believe makes it unsafe, or is this just put out there by the makers of cleaning fluids to get you to purchase their product rather than use a homemade version?
I use alcohol and distilled water and I'm one of those channels, Eric :) But not directly on the vinyl surface and not in too high concentration. Alcohol can soften vinyl causing groove distortion, damaging/harming/wrecking sound. To work, you only need 1% in any quantity of distilled water (in the bath, that is). I use 7% when using upright cleaners because I also use Glycol and the 7% is needed to melt the Glycol. See more here: theaudiophileman.com/vinyl-cleaning-guide-part-1-manual-cleaning/