Large Rifle Primer Evaluation using 6.5 Creedmoor
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- In this video I test 7 different large rifle primers in 6.5 Creedmoor. Velocity and group data is provided.
Data starts at 5:04
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Mag primers are generally used with slow burning powders for a hotter spark to ignite it.
FOR what its worth. In the extream cold in Alaskas bush the ONLY primers that ALWAYS worked in my rifles & 44 mag was the CCI mag primers in everything..Ran really HOT loads due to bears/moose. ( 45/70, 300 Win Mag, 243 & 22 hornet, 44 magnum) But the trick I found worked best was inside reaming the flash holes & ENLARGING the flash hole just a tad. Never had more than a 10 FPS variance but was fanatical about EXACT charge weights. Always set my primers just below flush. Case life sucked w super hot loads but that was insignificant w big ass grizzlies in your face. 243/22 hornet were primary cold winter fur rifles. Just got my 1st 6.5CM but cant imagine that being any different. The cold does NOT so funny things to guns/loads.
Great video on a topic that isn't usually covered in this manner.
Very interesting data.
Keep the good work up.
Cheers
+Ken Altoft thanks for the comment. I have more work to do on the but I certainly thought it was interesting. I am really interested to see what happens for the small rifle brass.
good data!
Thank you for the testing.
I shot over 20 rounds this past week with Lapua brass, CCI 450s, and 43.0 of RL19.
Results with a 30" Bartlein/REM 700 action was 5 for 5 on a 6" target @685 yds, and 4 for 4 on 10" swinger @850 yards. Three shots at 375 yds 1.1" group, two touching. Muzzle velocity average of 2749. SD of 7 with El cheapo chrono!
Results with Savage LRP 26" factory tube was 4 hits on 6" plate @685 yds, one just barely off, and one sighter.
Three shot group at 375 yds of 1.8" and an overall SD of 12 according to, yet again, El cheapo chrono!
I really need one of those high speed, low drag magnetos!
My FIL also has great results with CCI450, Lapua brass, and RL17. And better velocity than RL19.
Also, fyi, I'm shooting Berger 140 VLDs, and FIL is shooting Hndy 140 ELDs.
Revisiting this video as I've never had good results (compared to what I've read) and I started to suspect my Winchester primers. This video confirms my concern- and now I'll have to add the Magnum CCI to my comparison test.
Thanks to your great video and the sudden appearance of cci 210 at my local supply I am onward with my load development! Thanks again, keep it up (PLEASE)!
+John Shusdock glad you are enjoying the videos. Always interested to hear any info you guys learn as well!
Laurie Holland in a UK-based test also found S&B LR primers to be some of the best around.
I like the FEDERAL 210 primers because they have a low SD and ES with a decent velocity AND decent group size.
I'll take CONSISTENCY of SD and ES over a 5 shot group size because other factors including human are involved in group size.
A higher velocity means less flight time for wind to play with the bullet so, again, I like the FED 210 primers, especially for longer shots from 600 yards to 1,000 yards.
BTW, I shoot a RPR in 6.5 CM so thanks for this.
NOW I would like to see a primer comparison for the 6.5 PRC cartridge using H1000 powder. Are magnum primers would seem to be called for with the case capacity around 62 grains of H2O. I use 6.5 PRC in my Browning X-Bolt Pro which is a very accurate rifle.
Have tested this load in my custom AR 6.5 and was able to achieve .348 moa and .377 moa with .020 jump. Excellent load!
The statistics for the CCI 250 being so good and the horizontal spread insignificant, it's the one I'd try again. It almost looks like you're at the worst load for the barrel harmonics. I'd work on that charge up and down to see if you could find the sweet spot that is if group size is your priority and not velocity. I've seen all the groups you've fired and I don't recall any of they having such a small horizontal spread. If there is a sweet spot for that powder primer combination, you could have a dandy load.
38.7 grains with accurate 4350 and br2 primes with Hornady brass and 143 gr Hornady eldm bullets put 4 shots nearly in the same hole out of my Ruger American chamber in 6.5 Creed
This video was money! Along with your other videos too. I just got done building an AR10 in 6.5cm and I'm looking at all these options on what to load with. I'm really looking forward to your video on small rifle primers! I really want to see how those magnum primers do with those lapua cases
+Alex Stewart glad you enjoy the channel. The video is coming, and honestly it's one I'm really looking forward to as well. It's taking a minute to track down as many options as I can without having to buy 10k small rifle primers and I bought a couple more tools to eliminate as many variables as possible. Hope you sick around and enjoy the channel while you wait.
S&B LR primers are $18.88 per 1000 right now (cabellas) . I ordered 5 just because. hope I get good results!
shooting 1/2 moa with them.
S&B has always attempted to make a quality product as reflected by this test. Reloaders have been requesting a S&B magnum large rifle primer for years but S&B has been so successful with their current product line that they have very little reason to change. I am a fan of CCI 250 in all of my large rifle loads. H4350, RL19 are both difficult to ignite and a magnum primer can only help if you can find a consistent lot. Thanks for the video and I would recommend further testing of your loads using the S&B primers to see if there is a sweet spot.
Sellier & Bellot are no longer importing primers into the US, since the primer plant explosion more than 4 years ago. I contacted their importer Magtech, and was told if they get enough calls for them, they will try to deal with S&B to start to import again. So if you want them, get on the phone! I have used over 20 thousand and never had a single failure to ignite. Can't say that for any other primer manufacture.
I use a CCI 450 Small Rifle Magnum primer in all my .357 Maximum pistol loads in my 14" T/C Contender pistol. I use CCI the BR-2 primers in all of my F-class target rifle loads.
I have had really good results with small magnum rifle primers.
Magnum primers are confusingly named. They are better to ignite certain sluggish powders. Some perceive they are for “ magnum “ designated cartridges
I use magnum primers on H110, Imr 4227, varget, and 5744 for sure.
If you notice unburnt powder in your reloads, try a magnum primer. That’s what has been proven to me
Thanks for your hard work. As you said in your vid Some of us have thousands of primers me included. 3000 Fed-M and 3000 BR-2 however this test will lead me to try CCI 250 and CCi 450. Thanks again.
+acasper9 thanks for the comment as always. I thought the results were interesting. Need a bigger sample next time of course.
Extremely interesting and xerox useful.
Great info. Feel free to preform more primer test. I’ve also watched your other vids on primers. I’ve watched johnnys primer test. More info the better.
Hi Jeff, thank you, Johnny's series on hang fires has so much info I watch it for a refresher quite a bit. I am actually doing some more soon actually, though it may take a minute to show up. Lots to do with little time.
I appreciate you taking the time to preform these test.
I’ve found that the weakest primer gives the best result. CCI BR2 and FED 210-210match are my favorite. The magnum primers seem to always be the worst.
when you specify the best result are you talking about groups or SD / ES?
Now a question I have is the hardness of the primer in regards to primer seating depth, I am unfamiliar with s and b primers but I’ve heard talks in the depths of the internet regarding primer seating depth and harmonics (ignition timing) and am curious if that was the results that were shown in this video if we we’re strictly looking at group size
I try to determine what velocity my guns shoot best in my guns and stick around that velocity. To me it looks like you are just past the accuracy node for your rifle. I would try to slow some of the speeds down considering this video with the s&b primers shooting the best group around 2641 and the video where you achieved just under .4 moa group with the speed averaging around 2633 if I remember correctly.
41.1 grains of Reloader 16 5/8" groups 143 Eldx. As far as small rifle primers go I did a test like this in 2010. On the .223 Remington with 77 seirras. I found Federal 205M and Remmy 7.5 to be the best performers. All my tests were 10 shots allowing the barrel to cool from the lead sled. 205M were my favorite because they show smaller groups and radius shows book pressures were 7.5s just started to loose radius before blowing primers
+Mike Eikey so you have started using reloader 16 already? I just bought some. So far my rifle hates the 143, worst groups from the rifle. I am very interested what kind of velocities and sd / es you are getting using rl-16
moparmadman velocities are 2670FPS at 46'F with Aforementioned load from the Ruger American Predator. ES 6 FPS 210M primer 5 shots 100 yards. 143s seem to favor RE-16 slightly over H4350 in the Predator. Go to Midway USA under Reloader 16 or 143 ELDX and you will see the actual target under the comments section.
I checked out your photo seems the writing on the load says 2650-2673. I have tried this projectile with RL-17 (I actually have a video on it ruclips.net/video/hlJNVgnFJdQ/видео.html) and the best group was only 2569 fps and just under 3/4 of a MOA, but honestly that was probably a fluke. I will be doing some videos on RL-16 in the future but I haven't loaded anyhting with it yet. Thanks for the info.
moparmadman this weekend I'm trying H4831SC under 147ELDs with Chronograph Data and federal primer visuals. 43 to 46.6 grains ish... Through my buddies RPR. if you PM me on Facebook I'll give you my pictures from my entire load work ups with the predator.
I tried Reloader 17 under 143s as well up to 44 grains. No good on groups. I'm sure it will hold minute of deer to 500 though
vertical stringing = possible cheek weld variance...bipod loading or forearm bag support point variance
I ran into the same vertical stringing problem on one range trip - forgot to pack my cheek riser pad and had no cheek weld to speak of. This was with a scoped M1A.
What's your primer seating depth ? Factory spec is 0.004" below flush my groups are better at 0.007" .. Some like 8 to 10 Thousandths deep..
I would suggest verticals stringing with that kind of SD would be more inconsistent cheek pressure or breaking positions from shot to shot rather than blaming load.
I had this same thing
I’ve noticed very little difference between WLR-CCI-Fed in my loads.
Thanks for your good work and an interesting video. I think 5 shots is not enough to be of statistical significance.. I know it's a lot of work and you have done more the just about everyone else. Here is an idea: repeat the test using your 2 or 3 best choices and do more rounds, say 10-20, to see if there is a different result. I know you have many other things you want to test and may not have time. Perhaps some of your readers could do the same and write you. I would love to contribute but cannot find H4350 for sale.
+wayne Pursell thanks for the comment. With 7 options I wanted to narrow it down a little. I really want to get some small primers tested. I am sure that this may be somewhat lot dependent too.
Your data, and other data I have seen indicates the standard deviation of velocity has little to do with group sizes The load with the largest SD had a smaller group than the load with the smallest SD...I would have thought overall the groups would be MUCH better...The Ruger should be a solid half MOA rifle...
When it comes to velocity, I've always played it like this:
1. Chase the nodes, and ignore where they are velocity wise.
2. Fully develop all promising loads. I've had loads look good at 100 and 200 yards that fall apart at extended ranges.
3. The rifle will always dictate the load, all too often people get hung up on some factor because of past success.
5. Once you have a fully developed load, strive for consistency. This is when you look at standard deviation, seating pressure, and other minutia.
I shy away from ever calling a rifle things like "sub MOA", "half MOA" or anything like that. While I have seen more than enough .5 MOA RPRs to know they are good shooters, I've seen plenty shoot much worse. Another man's data should always be taken with a grain of salt.
Drop your charge .2 with that stringing group.
I would like to know what exactly determines and/or what process determined the actual size of the flash hole? Maybe everybody except me already knows this, I just don't know this. What is it that I need to consider, if for just an example, I want to use a magnum primer and a larger flash hole to ignite the powder in the cartridge? OK, I know all the relatives, no need to spend time telling me that I can "assume" to expect higher immediate pressures, etc. Are there any real facts? Why isn't the flash hole a slightly smaller size than the primer cup to allow a support shelf for the cup and allow the full force of the primer to ignite the charge? Is there any professional related technical and supportive data related to flash hole aperture size? I'm sure it affects projectile performance and charge burn rates.
I did the same test with H4350 in my 6.5 creedmoor. I also tried Remington 9 1/2 primers and got my schedule down to 2. Try some and see how they work for you.
Autocorrect S.D.
HI Billy, Thanks for commenting. I have a video upcoming on this subject but with different brass. I try the 9 1/2 M in that test.
Thank you, for reviewing both small & large primers. Sure would like to know why the magnum primers perform better. Same design and same formula or just more material?
+David Dale your welcome. Not sure but glad I know.
I know why,
Now do the test with the rifle clamped in a vise
This. When you're testing components you need to remove the human factor.
They all look close enough for me
Now you have reached true insanity. Lol Magnum primer was interesting.
+meditech I knew you would love it. Sometimes you just have to know.
+meditech thanks for the comment. I knew you would think I was crazy. The lower velocity in the Lapua brass is really bothering me though, so I have to find out. Enquiring minds want to know.
Went out yesterday to hit 1300 and goose egged. Fifteen shots, real close but nothing. Had an odd wind change from position to target and high mirage still disappointed in myself. Oh well, next time.
+meditech 1300 is a waze out there. We're your shooting those 147s?
Yes I was. As far as drop the ballistic calculator seems to be spot on. I had a 3-7mph full val wind with gusts to ten from the left to right and seemed to push more than the 2.2 moa the calc called for. I would have liked to spend more time but my spotter was my 14 year old daughter and she was complaining about BUGS. LOL.
Have you thought of using the federal gold medal match large rifle Magnum primers? I know of a place that has a bunch in stock here in Colorado.
I actually just found some a couple weeks ago and bought 2k. Hope they are a good lot.
Bolt Action Reloading Have you done any testing with them?
Not yet. I am sure I will be.
Bolt Action Reloading k let me know how it goes. I am curious if they are better. I also have some starline small rifle brass I am trying to work out with different primers. Have you done a video on seating depths?
I have not covered depth. Partially because I am not sure how to control it as well as I would like. I plan on doing some testing with a couple new primes that I have in stock now. I personally wonder if there is "really" a difference in the fed match primes since the lots I have used I have actually had better SDs with the standard level. I have a feeling it's more about lot control than it is match vs not.
Hello, I went out shooting my 140RDF, H4350, CCI 200 load which is usually a .7 MOA Load, in cold weather in the high 20's F. My Magnetospeed showed awful SD 52, ES of 140! I am wondering if the freezing weather needs a Mag Primer? A 223 with a CCI 450 primer has very low SD and ES.
I have basically switched to Mag primers in all my 6.5 creedmoor loads. Johnnys reloading bench actually just did a series on hangfires in 6.5 creed and it is very primer related. He is using SR primers which make this worse I think. Best of Luck
This is very valuable info so thank you for taking the time to run the tests and share them. I can't wait to see how the tests go with the Lapua brass because I have a new batch of 100 waiting to be primed and loaded. It would be interesting is to see the same load test conducted for the Lapua brass with a Magnum primer like the CCI #450. Will the velocity tail off like before or will it be more linear? Will ES and SD be better? FYI, I have gotten a lot better ES and SD with the Fed 215 in my .300 Win Mag by weight sorting my primers. They range from 5.50 to 5.68 grains. I separate mine into two groups: 1) 5.54-5.56 and 2) 5.58-5.60 grains. The rest get set aside for sighters.
You could do a test!
Can you load 215 fed primers to 6.5 creedmoors
New to your channel, especially like the detail. U mentioned owning RPR; do u find it to be a bit picky on what reloads it accepts?
Hi Bill,
Glad you are enjoying the channel. There is a lot of info here but if you are interested in something specific I can try and help you out. I am somewhere around 1750+ rounds though thre rifle at this point and have tested a lot of combos. Picky is a hard description, it will shoot moa or better with most anything. (I have had the worst luck with nosler rdfs but some claim they shoot well for them.) If you can tell me specifically what you want to know, I am happy to tell you what I would pick.
Bolt Action Reloading do u have an email I could ask vs sending here? Thanks for the quick response.
The channel email is moparmadmanyt@gmail.com but I dont check it super frequently just fair warning. But ask me anything you like. I don't mind answering questions in the comments because its pretty frequently that others may have the same questions. Up to you.
Bolt Action Reloading Thanks. Long day, will reach out to you tomorrow.
Bolt Action Reloading Sorry for not stating my issue clearer. I own a RPR Gen II, in 6.5 Creedmoor. I’m a novice reloader but enjoy your channel to pick up tips and advice. A problem I’m having with some, but not all reloads, is they will not feed all the way into the chamber; the bolt will not lock in the down position.
I discovered this while using Hornady 160 RN bullets. I use RCBS full length dies and follow all the measurements in the Hornady manual. I trim when required and check every round in a Lyman headspace gauge which reflects the cases are within limits. Lastly, I also own a Savage Model 11 in 6.5, it will feed everything I’ve reloaded without any issues. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
That is funny that a 210m didn't shoot as good numbers as the plain 210. Hmmmmmmmm!!!
Didn’t get 210 primers yet
I think the test should have been at 450 to 550 yards and not at 100 yards and that's why no significant difference was noticed? Powder, bullets and primers are capable of really making us scratch our heads wondering why.
$20 for 1000 primers, ahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
What was your COAL?
2.852" if I remember correctly.
You really need to get a 6 Creedmoor, your 6.5 doesn't impress me accuracy wise.
This bullet has historically not been a spectacular performer in my rifle. The Berger 135, 140eld and the 147 eldm have performed much better.
fill a sock with sand.
WLRM primers are the best and you didn't even use them! Funny you give CCI a chance but not Winchester?
Does everyone always have to tell you everything first? Why didn't you use them? No excuses.
+Sir Maxwell I actually just picked some up.
Haven't done any testing yet.
Ya right,.Now that I told you about them suddenly you just picked some up !LOL
+Sir Maxwell actually picked them up for reloading some 338 LAP and 300 WM. I do need to do some more primer testing though
I really appreciate your work in doing these test for everyone though and that's the only reason I shared my secret about WLRM's with you. I have only been hand loading for a year and have never shot competitively. Yet I have determined this? Why hasn't the Bench rest people discovered these thing years ago? I'll tell you why because most people like lemmings always except what their told and never do their own research in life. Just like the Libtards and their Mainstream liberal News Handlers. To many people are pathetic crowd and media follower sheep!
Nobody ever gives the WLRM primers a chance for non magnum cartridges.
Now a question I have is the hardness of the primer in regards to primer seating depth, I am unfamiliar with s and b primers but I’ve heard talks in the depths of the internet regarding primer seating depth and harmonics (ignition timing) and am curious if that was the results that were shown in this video if we we’re strictly looking at group size