The Death and Return of Isometric CRPGs | A History of Isometric CRPGs (Episode 8)
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2020
- This episode looks at what killed the isometric CRPG, what happened during the dark ages, and how the genre returned in 2014.
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#CRPGs #Divinity #BaldursGate #Fallout #Planescape #PillarsOfEternity #Obsidian #LarianStudios 
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So...are the new Shadowrun games isometric CRPGs? Yay or nay?
(I think they are strategy/tactics games, not CRPGs, but would like to canvass opinions)
Yay.
They are more tactically minded than I enjoy, but I definitely would consider them RPGs.
Did you maded a half-orc waifu?
Disco Elysium is great
i consider them isometric rpgs with xcom combat. so yes they count.
"There are only two difficulty levels: Normal, and No Thank You."
I felt that.
Everyone felt it 😅
In totally unrelated news Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous just passed 1 million on kickstarter.
I am skeptical of games that are tied closely to a tabletop ruleset. It limits creativity in order to avoid crying of the purists of said ruleset. That said, I really enjoyed Pathfinder Kingmaker. I am looking forward to Wrath of the Righteous.
@@thenightingale7405 if you'll install turn based mod and close to tabletop mod, game will be even better. BTW, both Kingmaker and Wrath of the Righteous are based on the official Adventure paths, covering all books from those APs. Which is cool, considering that there are TONS of content that isn't even in books, like entire Nyrissa's character, all NPCs etc. In fact, Amiri is suggested as a pregen player character for Kingmaker AP.
and guys promise turn-based mode
Chris Avellone's newest project
@@dzikripratama3776
When was the last time Avellone was anything but a consultant in a game? He's going to write couple characters at most and then oversee some of the work in the writing team does. While his contributions are appreciated calling it "his" project is a bit much.
This is why I think Dragon age origins is to often overlooked yes the series shat its self but the first game seemed to be attempting to push the CRPG style into the modern age with the Isometric pause and play combat people loved from Baldurs gate but with an environment you could explore in 3rd person. I hope future games adopt and improve on this style.
They outright advertised it as a spiritual successor of Baldur's gate
In my opinion that game and Kotor are the pinnacle of Bioware and its not even close.
@@oliviawilliams6204 exactly why I am hoping Baldur's gate 3 adopts this style and not just the pure Isometric style.
@@DagothDaddy im scared about BG3. If you look at BioWares last games the story have been pritty crappy and managed by marketing teams alot...
@@kallmannkallmann BG3 is being made by a different studio, you'll be pleased to know! The same studio that did Divinity: Original Sin 1 & 2
I binge your CRPG videos ALL the time, I love and appreciate all your hard work. Just thought i would share!! You got me to give Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment a play and I LOVE them both. I'm at the end of a lawful good playthrough of PT.
You're missing an important factor here: voice actors need to vocalize every line. That's a lot more expensive than writing a line in a dialogue box.
Yeah, but Morrowind didn't, and the story still feels bland to me compared to Fallout (Caveat: I never finished Morrowind.)
u mean like WOW? there is a lot of 3d games that do it like wow. Character has two voice lines one for greeting and one for saying bye rest is text.
inXile's Wasteland 3 managed to pull off a 98% fully voiced Tactical CRPG (before they got bought by Microsoft, on a budget partially kickstarted). All lines of dialogue by NPCs were voiced and custom player characters got battle barks with about 6 variations for 2 sexes, it was only the dialogue tree choice player dialogue that was left mute (because they didn't want to pay the 12 different people they hired for the battle barks to read EVERY dialogue tree line, I'm sure).
It's really about how you stretch your budget and resources, and what you prioritize. inXile seems to prioritze audio a lot more than other elements (including launch stability, which might not be the best choice to be honest).
@@shawnsorbom8907 You never got to the Heart of the story, then ;)
Man, you gotta play Disco Elysium, that game really hit the nail on CRPGs making a strong comeback. Not to say DOSII, Underrail, PoE and the like are not great, but Disco Elysium is the only recent experience I keep comparing to Planescape Torment on a relentless basis.
I actually didn't care for the storylines of dos2 or pillars. Hadn't heard of Underrail, though. Hard agree that Disco Elysium is a true revival of the genre, though.
@@amyyost2753 Pretty much exactly this
@@amyyost2753 Three words: Age of Decadence
Love Underrail, got it on a whim back in 2016 - it whipped my ass. It’s definitely a hostile game and people going into it should be aware of this - in terms of the experience playing it, it’s a bit like one of those STALKER overhaul mods like Misery or Anomaly that take an already hostile game and make it even more arduous - but in CRPG format. The highs are extremely high, and the lows reach crush depth.
Planescape had a sequel called tides of numenara. Came out a few years back.
Thank you for not giving up on the series Chris. It might not be a hit, views wise, but I really enjoy watching these videos, and have learned quite a bit from them.
Pillars of eternity is a great modern crpg for me. I know it wasnt as in depth as something like dos but there was something about it.
The lore is better and darker especially first Pillars
I agree man, once it started I was instantly hooked in. Luckily I didn’t know about pillars until the 2nd one came out therefor I got to binge both games back to back
First game was alright, but it was up its own ass with its lore. Boooring. That second game, tho.... that's the good stuff.
@@bacchusnominus5251 Companion dialogues in both games I supremely enjoyed. I was thinking if I cared about them maybe I'd be more interested in the larger world that these characters are supposed to be interested in as well. Mostly it worked. PoE 2 is on par with New Vegas for me. Similar faction / no villian vibes.
Though I can understand quest fatigue like you describe. It happened to be in Divinity OS 2. I want to play that and like it but god it's overwhelming. I'd like to play Wasteland 3 because I like 2 so much but I'm worried the whole 'co op story driven rpg' is going to fuk up what I like about single player stories.
This is probably the best punchline of the whole video (9:45): "There are only two difficulty levels. Normal and no thank you." 🤣
I love that 😂😂👍
I found your channel through this series, and I’m a big fan of this retrospective! Thanks for covering some of the more obscure stuff. Its always interesting to look back at the stuff that didn’t get immortalized as a “classic” and thus got forgotten
I hope that eventually this series of yours somehow draws in the numbers it deserves. Honestly this is a fantastic project and I think it has a longevity to it as a resource of essays/critiques mapping out an important part of the history of gaming.
Thank you for making it and I hope you keep doing what you want to and find the recognition you deserve.
Great work man
Your motivation re: DOS2 is exactly why I started watching this series, as I'm playing DOS2 right now. Please keep making these! Your long-style documentary is an excellent retelling of this genre.
I thoroughly enjoy each of your videos in this series. Thank you for your hard labor in making these, I appreciate it.
I love this kind of videos. They are so nostalgic and relaxing.
Great work!
See, I think the core aspect is party based. Or rather, I think that the three essential ingredients to create a "D&D like experience" are 1.) Stats 2.) Customization (this point is here mostly to exclude most JRPGs, since those are usually also both party and stats based) 3.) Party based combat. That's where to me the big split happens. Isometric makes it easier to do party based combat because of this "on top" view of things. While if you do first person like Morrowind, it's a lot harder to do party based combat where you control the other party members and creating actual tactical choices with things like positioning (tanks draw agro, while mages or ranged are in the back) or set up (character A spills oil on enemy, character B sets it on fire). It's not that it's impossible to do party based with 3D engines, that's why imo Dragon Age still feels like so much of a CRPG, it's just that it is generally harder and more fiddly.
First person or behind the shoulder games want to put you more immediately into the action, but if you are directly in the action you don't want to "pull out" to control other party members. (even Diablo is like that, creating a more visceral style, but just for a single character. I think that is kind of the ultimate irony of CRPGs, that if the combat becomes "too good" on a one on one level you ruin the party based aspect because you don't want to leave the entertaining combat. But you rob yourself of the tactics aspect that party based can afford. Also party based goes against the the direct power fantasy approach to gaming since the whole point of a party is that rather than one character getting ALL the useful skills, you spread the wealth around and distribute some things like healing to other characters. You create a party of rock, paper and scissor rather than than creating one character who is rock, paper and scissor. Now I think in most successful CRPGs the main player character still feels like the most powerful one, but even if your character is rock and scissor, you usually at least still have paper to distribute out to other party members, letting them contribute to the combat)
So to me isometric games with just one character and no party members feel like less as part of the legacy of "D&D style games" than Dragon Age Origins which is party tactics based. Party tactics, where you don't just skill up one character, but a combination of characters (who fulfill different oh right ROLES) are definitely not everybody's cup of tea, but for those people who do feel drawn to party based setups it makes sense that they would fund the isometric renaissance, because good party based tactics gaming is something you don't see a lot of in the 3d era of games, with the few times where it is done and done reasonably well drawing a lot of surprise.
Really good analysis regarding team-strategy based combat on isometric rpgs VS single-action based one in 1st/3rd person ones, leaving out "depth of story" sort of arguments. Have you had a go at the last 2 of the wasteland series?
I've recently started playing isometric games.
I've been a life long gamer but I've always played console. I've played most of the great games.
Fallout 3 got me interested in RPG's in general and I went and played most of the good ones(IMO) over the last 6 years
I finally played fallout 2 last year and now am stumbling onto Baldurs gate. What a treasure it has been to discover these gems.
I'm diving deep in isometric/crpg games and am even considering picking up a DnD starter kit and finding a group 0.o
Your videos are well made and I enjoy them very much, Chris.
Same, for all the abuse Fallout 3 gets from the hardcore it was the gateway that got me into classic CRPGs
Dont forget to check out the nexus for mods.
Allot of them as well as newer RPGs have many many thousands of mods that can shake up the experience or let you tune it to your liking
I am so jellous of you. I wish I could experience them again(or had time to replay them all once more). Enjoy. Happy to see there are still people gatting into the genre
you might enjoy morrowind 🤷🏼♂️
Great video. Captivating throughout.
I have never played a crpg. Ever. But I loved everyone of your crpg retrospectives because I love hearing about video game history and you deliver it so well. I have watched many of these multiple times. Just hope you keep doing something in the same realm of video game history. You do such a great job with the research and delivery. Got a good voice for it.
loved it. lucky to have this at the top of my YT feed :D
Favorite series on RUclips!! Thanks so much you do great work
I know you mention it being hard making this series since it doesn’t pull a large audience but just know that I really appreciate you making it. I started watching before I had ever tired a crpg and it pushed me to try to get into the genre. I started with Dos2 and it’s now literally my favorite game of all time. So thanks for this great series 💕
A fantastic video! I couldn't stop watching.
Fantastic video, mate. Love the series
Love this series and the dedication to it. Definitely inspired me to pick back up some of the old ones I never finished.
Been checking youtube everyday for a new episode so excited
Thanks Chris, I really appreciate the work you put into your videos. :)
I absolutely adore this series. CRPGs are a big passion for me and your videos are both well interesting and enjoyable to watch.
Keep it up!
Great film, thanks for production and dedication.
Another great video. Cheers Chris. Reliving my childhood through your videos and now also reinstalling Pillars 1 :P
this is probably the best and most keen series of videos on the topic on the entire platform! thanks to you i’ve finally fully and thoroughly acquainted myself with the classic interplay CRPG series and it would be an understatement to say that i am overwhelmed by the result. you have my deepest gratitude!
How do you know it's the most keen series of videos on the topic if you aren't familiar with the genre? A lot of the information could be wrong and you would have no idea.
I'm just going to join many others and thank you for the amazing series. It was wonderful to relieve these games through the eyes of someone elese and your commentary is always both insightful and entertaining. Granted I was rediscovering these games by myself about 10 years ago so I don;t know how they felt at the time of release. Nontheless I'm still very nostalgic about them and replay them as often as I can (which is not much they take a lot of time)
I have been looking forward to watching this all day
Love the series, can't wait for the next!
This content is great, much appreciated!
This series may not be a huge hit, but I love them! Thanks for the hard work.
Love your videos. Great work!
Great video series Chris - I loved the whole series
Excellent video, subscribed.
Thank you for the fun essays. I am nostalgic for the experiences for the old games but we can never get the first-time awe back - I've tried replaying BG2 so many times but its hard to push through.
You're series of videos is what convinced me to get the enhanced editions of boulders gate 1 SODS 2 planescape tournament and ice wind dale. And I'm loving all these games. I wish I got into this genre sooner
Dear Chris! Thank you for your work. It is actually rewarding seeing video games treated this way.
My favorite CRPG will always be the first fallout game. It has such an incredible atmosphere to it, extremely bleak yet balanced with dark humor (and not in the pop culture sort of way that 2 does it)
Second part two. Played both on release, that was something really different that other games, and still they are. Choices.
2 is mechanically superior, and if bigger is better, then it has that too. the story is great and the villians are cool. but it is the game where the humor started to stand out and force it's way over the tightly focused, realistic narrative / environ of the first game.
Wish I can join if I can figure how to get it on my phone . Man it's frustrating lol . Bethesda needs to rerelease it. Do they own the rights?
I'd highly recommend the new Wasteland games if you want that OG Fallout vibe back. They're basically Fallout 1/2 but with XCOM combat and a squad based approach rather than using a solo MC.
love this series, dude
I'm really looking forward to hearing your takes on DOS1 and DOS2.
Just leaving a comment for the algorithm to help the channel.
Amazing, Brilliant, Outstanding, good work, nice video, great work, this is quality content, I like this video, i want more.
Another really great video. It's been a real pleasure watching these as I finally get to see a lot of games from my childhood (or ones that I missed) completed. It's like a checklist of stories I never managed to see the end of.
A note on the 2d iso vs 3d. Other than isometric views looking really cool I always enjoyed the less detailed versions of an iso view because it left room for the imagination to define what a character looked like. Fallout is a great example of this. Even though NPCs used the same couple of sprites, every character looked and felt different because I would imagine them thanks the amazing writing. This was a little lost in the 3d versions, which made NPCs all feel the same (more or less), which wasn't helped with the limited number of voice actors.
Thanks again!
Great videos, That CRPG book looks really interesting too.
awesome video. i'm just getting into these kinds of games so this video has been very informative and entertaining. i plan on watching your entire series and have subscribed to your channel. great job!!!
Damn, I’ve never played any of these games but feeling nostalgic and can’t stop listening to you
Loved the series good job
Hi Chris your stuff is great and it is a joy to find in depth videos about CRPGs, looking forward to hear what you think about Divinty: OS2 and Disco Elysium, some of the best stuff I played since baldurs gate 2 and planescape. Keep up the great work :)
For just under a decade now my gaming experience was limited to handheld consoles and old laptops for practical reasons. This lead to me missing out on many modern titles and the ability to play many older titles. Your series has helped widen my horizons and educate me on the history of a favorite hobby.
Thanks for all the effort you've put into the series!
that was simply EPIC. Thank you. Great vid......
Thanks for making these. I thought I heard you despair as to the viewership a few times but please know that it is appreciated. Interesting pronunciation of pseudo BTW :)
That must be specific to him right? Brits(?) don't normally say that as 'sway-do' over 'sudo'... right?
Great video!
You mentioned about these videos not being too popular, just thought I'd add my view, I love watching this series as asmr when i go to sleep or im napping, i espeicially love the fallout ones specifically the first when you talk about ian and how he cant be trusted with the 10mm smg, dont know why I love that bit, I think because in my life only strange or mysterious people ive known have been called Ian. I love your voice, the looks of the games, their sounds, its so dreamy to me and just helps me sleep.
Another lovely video on my favorite genre just a heads up on a few more modern ones is Ember and Sword Coast Legends and Pathfinder Kingmaker
Just got the Cprg book. Thanks for the recommendation its amazing and thank you for doing these videos
Thanks for doing this analysis and for including Geneforge! :)
We appreciate the series
Can’t wait for you to talk about Kingmaker!
great video! I haven't played that many CRPGs, but Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 have been some of my favorite games ever for the longest time, so I am happy to see the genre has made a comeback. I've got a lot of both the classics and newer games in my backlog (Pathfinder, Solasta, Fallout 1-2, Planescape: Torment, Underrail, etc), but so far I've only really played Divinity: Original Sin 2 and Disco Elysium, and both are fantastic. I've yet to finish DOS2, but Disco Elysium I couldn't put down until I finished it and it was something else, man. Wish there were more games out there like Disco Elysium with the same effort put into a unique setting, world building, and that tabletop RPG feeling.
If it makes you feel any better, I value this kind of content.
this series is my straight up favourite thing on youtube, I know in terms of youtube numbers we are in a minority but I bet the people that love your work really LOVE your work
We really do...
Awesome video! You're easily on par with channels like Indigo gaming, instant sub
I really like these videos, they are in fact how i came across your channel, and I'm sad to hear that they are not as popular as some of your other content. Also, I fucking love Geneforge and I am so excited to hear you talk about them. Spiderweb Software just announced that they are going to be remaking the Geneforge games and the KS for the first in the series either just went up, or is just going up. Might be worth checking out?
Anyway, great video, keep up the great work and I can't wait for the next one.
this video series has given me more joy in the past 2 years than most media has
Hey Chris as you said in this video your self this series isn't doing that great for your channel but I just want you to know that this series does have some die hard fans, I know I don't comment very often but I have watch and loved every single video in this series. I remember asking your thought on divinity original sin before this series was even a thing and you said that you couldn't really say because you had no experience with CRPG's this was maybe a year or so before the first video in this series came out, I got so excited because I knew at some point divinity was going to be covered. I've been having so much fun watching you cover all of these games over the last few years, so please know that even though they aren't very popular there are some among us that love them and want more.
I played Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 in 2020, now I'm playing Planescape Torment and it's incredible
Divinity 2 and Baldurs gate 2 are the best two games in that genre
Can't wait to see what you have to say about Baldur's Gate 3!
Hey, new sub here. I have been falling absolutely in love with this video series. I see that it's only 12 videos long, which makes me sad. I'm guessing you hit a point where the effort to payoff ratio just wasn't reasonable anymore.
I just wanted to chime in here to say I appreciate you and the work that very clearly went into making them. I've recently been binging on CRPGs and reminiscing about the ones I grew up with. It's been great taking this journey through the past with you with detailed insight to accompany the trip.
Cheers.
I really liked the video series! And this vid too
Subscribed to this channel for these videos and I eagerly wait for the next installation. Looking forward to Planescape: Torment sequel (kind of a sequel?) Torment: Tides of Numera.
"I didn't read the manual".. HERETIC!
Great video man! It’s awesome to see someone showing some love to the crpg genre. Appreciate seeing Spiderweb games in there too. If you haven’t played them, I would highly recommend playing the newer avernum series which there are three of. I hadn’t been as immersed with the exploration and world like those since games like baldurs gate or mass effect. The mechanics are somewhat basic and the story is pretty good but for me, the exploration aspect just nails it and is really fun. Anyways, have a good one.
I might also attribute the return of Iso CRPGs to the growing popularity of tabletop RPGs again. The market for games has expanded and changed, but now there are more people than ever interested in RPGs in general then there used to be. And since ISO CRPGs so faithfully emulate the experience of tabletop, perhaps that's a factor.
agreed
Don’t really have much to say, I’m mostly commenting for the algorithm. But this was a well made and well scripted video, thanks again Chris
Really looking forwards to see what you think about Tyranny, it's become my favourite of the new rpgs.
Man I love Tyranny. I really hope that game eventually gets a sequel because the ending to that game was such a disappointment.
I would love to see your take on Shadowrun! It's kind of a shame this series isn't doing very well. I've enjoyed what you've released so far, and I'm looking forward to new entries in this series. I never really got into isometric RPGs personally, but I like seeing what other people were playing while I was busy with Pokemon and Final Fantasy back in the day. I have since played the original Fallout, I loved Shadowrun Returns, and this Baulder's Gate thing looks interesting. I hope you do continue this series.
Yeah the Shadowrun games are the only ones I didn't find boring after a few hours. probably because it's not your typical fantasy setting, and because they are shorter. Pillars and D:OS 2 put a nail in the coffin for me when it comes to isometric CRPGs.
I really love this series, not only is it nostalgic but it feels like a thorough and worthy send off to that age of cRPGs. So many of the ones listed here will likely never really be heard of again as they fade into the obscurity of time, so it’s cool to have this preserved to a degree here
Oh my gosh, finally. Someone realises time is limited and getting to grips with some of the older games takes a while.
the only reason i can get through alot of them is due to me cheating to get through the combat. that cuts alot of the time it takes to finish them in half.
@@megamike15 I finished morrowind pretty much when it came out. If I ever decide to do it again (since I've forgotten everything) I'll cheat the heck out of it. This applies to pretty much every old rpg of every genre.
@@Cepuminator but then whats the point in "playing" them?? if you just want to see the ending, just youtube it
@@sonic-bb The point is experiencing the story at my own pace. Or exploring.
@@Cepuminator lolol sure okay
I loved this series, any chance you’ll do videos on divinity OS 1 and/or 2? I love both of those games and I know they’d be right up your alley.
Only few a minutes in but seeing a flash of Geneforge in there made me smile.
Now you beckomed my friend. I never played Genoforge, but i ventured into depths of Avernum and guard borders of Avernum.
i recently got to play the geneforge games afew month ago. they are really good games and i highly recommend them. while a remaster of the first game is coming out i find they have aged alot better then say the first 3 avernum games [ which i recommend people buy the remakes].
A remaster of the first is currently on kickstarter.
Very pleased to see some Ultima footage on here. That game was a big part of my childhood and arguably one of the most potent influences on computer RPGs since Dungeons and Dragons.
Wasn't there footage of ultima pagan
Wasn't there footage of ultima pagan
In my opinion the first two Divinity games have more in common with crpgs than with a typical diablo-clone.
BtW, this is a great video series and I hope to see more of it.
This guys notion of CRPG is kind of all over the place.
Icewind Dale 2 was my first party-based CRPG and I LOVED it. I just finished Baldur’s Gate I and it’s great, but IWD2 will always have a special place in my heart.
Cool overview of the history! Really enjoyed.
yeah it really is a shame whats known as the old AD&D "gold box" CRPGs haven't been re-released on modern systems. I grew up playing those games. Pools of Radiance was only one of them. There was a mess of them... including games like Curse of the Azure Bonds, Gateway to the Savage Frontier, Treasures of the Savage Frontier, Champions of Krynn, Pools of Darkness, even Buck Rogers Countdown to Doomsday. I forget how many there were.
I just purchased the cRPG book from Bitmap Books! It's amazing.
There was one that came out this year named Stygian, which very few people seem to know about.
It's actually really good, the main issue with it being it wasn't finished.
37:43 That is an over-exaggeration. Sure 3D game engines are technologically more demanding to make, but once you have the assets, building a dungeons is really easily. NWN was extremely easily for developer and modders to build campaigns once the engine was in place. And today it is not hard for developers to simple license prebuilt engines for their games.
I played genforge when I was 6-8 years old on wild tangent of all things. I was way to young to appreciate the game or hell even understand it. I have even considered buying it for nostalgias sake. I would love to see you tackle some of these not so key games in the same level of detail potential at the end of the series cause these videos are great.
I hope you'll take a look at the Expeditions series. First one came out in 2013 and the next one, which was more of a traditional crpg, came out in 2017.
awesome!
:)
Homie, you didn't know back then, but you were cooking
I love you man.
The fact that I no longer play games as a whole, but from all the games I've played during my active years, I only go back to Baldur's gate and Fallout speaks a lot. I would also love to see the Fallout enhanced edition
Great video love my crpgs