I am struggling a bit with wether you are trying to troll or you actually think this was a good test and conclusion? 1. The paper filter is not invented by Weber. 2. There have been plenty of data on improved extraction with using paper filters. This is in my opnion only pronounced in light roasts (where this can give better clarity/flavor seperation) but comes at the cost of mouthfeel. I hated the papers when i first saw them - but after a lot of blind tasting with a group on light - medium/light coffees i had to conclude that i preferd the shots brewed with the filters. There was also a siginificant difference in messured TDS between filterno filter. But what is good espresso??? I HATE classic itallien espresso - Robusta rubber, burnt, bitter - i need tons of sugar to drink that. But i love fruity, sweet espresso (deffently not what the italiens call espresso) - so - Better espresso is quite subjective.....
Why not just grind finer. Works for me! The paper enables a much higher flow rate because it prevents the holes from getting clogged. And a finer grind size means a higher extraction as long as you're not getting channeling. I haven't tried the unifilter without papers does it clog up really badly?
@@mitchdoescoffee They do that sometimes it seems, but I think others were doing paper filters on the bottom of their baskets beforehand! They didn't come up with it. If the fines / clogging doesn't happen, then why do you have to grind so much finer with a paper filter, you don't have to use the Weber ones and achieve similar results, You can use an appropriately sized filter with any precision basket (Decent, VST, Pullman etc) with a flat bottom I have filter papers from Good brothers coffee which is 54mm and covers all the holes nicely (could be a little larger) I see now they have 55mm on their site which should fit even better. Alternatively you can make your own with hole cutter devices :)
@@mitchdoescoffee A lot of people DO find it improves espresso extraction, and taste, as well as workflow (maybe) at least cleaning is easier, especially with that basket that might get clogged up otherwise. If you weren't able to get shot timing right and it was coming out sour, your grinder might be the issue.
@@BensCoffeeRants I spend several hours trying to get what I think is a good espresso from it... using some of the best grinders in the industry... I just feel like they remove some of my favourite attributes of an espresso.
The paper works for me with a standard ims basket and only having to grind slightly finer. I like the taste either way but don't like the extra step and inconvenience.
@@mitchdoescoffee Not really but I do it for cholesterol reasons. Probably doesn't make a difference in the long run but I'm not giving up coffee yet...LOL!
The paper if for ease of nocking out the puck. Can you please make a video showing how the puck gets stuck when not using the paper? I’ve also heard if you grease the unifilter with coconut oil the puck will knock out easier.
My understanding is that the paper filter will help get a more even extraction for baskets that don't have holes going all the way to the edge (without papers these baskets will extract less at the edges). For a basket like this that has holes right to the edge it does seem unnecessary to use a paper filter.
Its thicker metal so without the paper filters the Weber seems to get clogged holes easier and it's harder to get them out. Whether it really affects anything I'm not sure might just come out in the next shot. I only tried it without a paper filter once. Easier to clean with the papers. I use them twice. Heh.
I can get a slower pull and a balanced espresso with the unifilter and a paper filter on bottom (perhaps because I use a Decent, or perhaps because of my grinder quality) yet I still agree with him, not a flavor nor mouthfeel I enjoy; and I tried it on a great variety of coffees! I won't say they were bad shots; just not stellar.
I use wetted paper filters at the bottom of the portafilter all of the time, and have tested with and without numerous times. Never go without now. Not using the filter causes espresso to have more body, yes, but definitely less unique flavor perception (or some may word it like decreased clarity). For my tastes, I don't care so much about thickness of the drink (so long as it's not overly thin) and I primarily want to taste unique interesting things, rather than have the flavors be muddy and muted, or even imperceptible. If it's sour, it needs to be finer grind and/or longer ratio.
Oh also, I do this on a 9 bar Gaggia, and while I can make it work easily for regular timed shots, I've also A/B'd and now use it all of the time with turbo shots (which similarly improves flavor).
Interesting... I think this is where the marketing of the product may have got it wrong... stating that the espresso will be improved is far too subjective...
That is what the science confirms. Puck screens don't have any real evidence to change anything currently but using a paper filter at the bottom, independent of the ratio, was proven to improve extraction constantly quite significantly.
I just got my unibasket today and it was shipped with Weber paper filters. I just couldn’t get a good shot but had way too many espressos today to keep trying. Tomorrow I will try like you did without the paper filter. And my shots we raining down instead of a nice centre stream, but from what I understand that is expected because the holes are all the way to the edge.
"Just have 1 more coffee" 😅 Yes, this basket isn't designed to give you the "instagram shots" but without the papers I found it to give me a coffee that is much more enjoyable.
Nice video! Have you tried grinding much finer up to the point of having extractions that are longer than normal (e.g 35+ seconds)? Also, what's your opinion about using full size paper filters (58mm or 58.5mm) on top of the puck, instead of puck screens?
Thanks mate. I tried & tried & tried all grind settings... I found no matter what I did to the coffee, I just couldn't get a good espresso while using papers... I'm sure will some crazy pressure profiling I might be able to achieve something drinkable... but I feel like we are just trying to solve a problem that shouldn't exist.
Mitch - yep has the same issues with a unibasket paper and a Weber HG2 - went 2 whole steps finer - battery acid - paper in out shaken about etc - finally after maybe 40+ shots bingo I cracked it with around 1 step finer (what’re that is in microns no idea ) and tbh no real difference with paper or not the secret for myself was to ensure a really through wdt (in spite of Weber having a stirring on its grinder) a couple of settle taps prior to tamp and I’m back to where I was prior to trying the basket - better no but my engineering head still says buy a unifilter……..
@@davidpinnington213 if its acidic still pull a longer shot. I used to do more ristrettos but found you can extract longer with the Weber for better results. Although you lose out on some body that way. I found using lower rpm on my grinders seemed to give more acidic results although when cooled it seems better. I always thought higher rpm wasnt as good but lately been enjoying higher rpm for more balance.
I can make the paper filter work, with the vst basket. I do have to buy a smaller diameter (53.5 mm for the 58 mm basket) so it fits perfectly. I have so far a similar expedience with the uni basket and filter paper. It runs just way too fast.
@mitchdoescoffee more even extraction. I grind slightly finer, run in about the same time, and it gives higher extraction yields. Scott Rao developed the technique, and Lance Hedrick has a video about it showing extraction yields differences within one coffee puck.
I have a spirit basket, and using paper on the bottom of these super high HPI baskets (like the weber) typically gives me highly over extracted shots. On a regular basket like a standard VST/IMS etc, I think they are very useful, and help bump the EY up beyond 20-21%. So either get a VST and use papers, or just buy a Spirit (or knockoff) and don't. I do use puck screens on the top, but that's just for ease of cleaning.
@@mitchdoescoffee First thing you should try is to lower your head pressure when using the weber + paper - even as low as 6-6.5 bar. This reduced pressure allows for more ground expansion and reduced flow rate. Lots of good studies out there to check out on the increased flow properties of bottom papers. The basic principle is that the paper creates a solid horizontal 'wicking' layer that allows water to flow not only down through the puck and spread to adjacent holes in the basket, but also across the entire surface of the puck which is in contact with the paper. In practice, this results in higher flow across the entire surface area, meaning one can grind incrementally finer, which should lead to an increase in EY. With a high HPI basket, this is amplified to the point where you get super high flow rates, leading to fast, under extracted 'sour' shots, similar to what you experienced in the video. Grinding finer in this case typically results in either choking the machine, or more commonly a much higher density puck that is, by its nature, more prone to cracking and channeling. Similar to the concept of flexibility vs tensile strength - ie a more rigid structure is more likely to fracture than deform. At these ultra fine grind sizes, there is physically less space between particles to allow expansion. This is where reducing head pressure can sometimes help prevent this. IMO, a high HPI basket generates the same result as adding a paper to a lower HPI basket. That said, the highest EY I have ever measured was just shy of 28% using the spirit basket alone - I have never achieved greater than 25% on a 'normal' basket with any combination of paper, grind, etc. To me, this indicates there is a 'sweet spot' where grind size and flow intersect, where the particles have just enough room to expand - but are not so small that they cause cracking/channeling - and hole density is such that water can pass unimpeded straight down through the puck with maximum ground contact. Definitely try the papers with a standard HPI basket. Note that it is key to ensure the papers are not too large for the basket, and do not extend or deform up the side walls. This creates a junction that is parallel (or near) to the direction of water flow, and thus a path of least resistance. There is also a minor but statistically significant difference in using dry vs pre-wet papers. In my experience, dry papers, perhaps counterintuitively, flow faster. If you want to get extremely science-y, there are ways to change puck density without changing grind size or tamp. The Porcupress (sp?) has the effect of actually increasing puck density without changes to other variables. The advantage of this approach is that you can keep the grind size coarser, allowing for that particle expansion to take place, while simultaneously slowing flow rate. I would be very, VERY interested to see the results of using a high HPI basket like the weber/spirit, with a bottom filter paper, and using a porcupress with a slightly coarser-than-otherwise-needed grind size. If only I had the $$$.
Do you still recommend the puck screen? Also is your Sanremo Cube R still your favorite machine? I am still trying to decide if I should upgrade from my Flair 58. Thanks!!
No... I've found puck screens don't improve the espresso quality... and that's all I care about. In that price range... i absolutely stand by the Cube being the best machine. 🙏
@@mitchdoescoffee cool. Just curious. I compared Wafo spirit and Unifilter and the spirit won but I didn’t think the Unifilter was total garbage. I also didn’t use paper filters.
@@mitchdoescoffee thanks, I was not sure if it was only and the bottom. And that is supposed to be a good quality paper from Japan. I wonder what Weber would suggest based on the flavor you got.
Absolutely agree while I'm no professional when it comes to espresso making but i don't see or cant see any pros besides as mentioned yes its easier for cleaning. Thanks for reiterating that I'm saving my penny's and making more coffee :)
This is my issue with it... I understand what Weber are claiming it does, but this problem simply does not exist in any of my experiments. My coffees are incredible without this as a part of process, and using them simply made bad coffee in my opinion.
@@mitchdoescoffee it's probably your grinder, maybe alignment is off and you can't grind fine enough? I think you mentioned you had some good grinders? You've tried multiple grinders? Just because it's a commercial grinder doesn't mean it's good necessarily.
Off camera I have tried hours & hours of all types of temperatures & pressures with a huge array of recipes... and I still have no love for this product.
different kind of paper provide day and night difference , some paper (like weber one) running too fast and absorb so much superfine + oil . you have to find a paper just hold a good balance , but this is all for the "old" basket to prevent edge underextraction , new fancy basket doesn't need paper at all
I'm using a Cafelat Robot and getting better espresso with a bottom paper. I lose a bit of texture but I get better flavour separation and I can grind finer. Not sure why it didn't make a good coffee for you, maybe you should have gone even finer - rather than add a screen?
@@mitchdoescoffee For reference, I generally like pretty fruity (acidic) coffees. If I get it right then it's sweet and very clear with little/no bitterness, maybe because of the lack of fines. I know some people say that it can reduce the body of the coffee, but I am ok with the mouthfeel.
@@mitchdoescoffee I think the issue is you have to have flow profiling on the machine and preinfusion to lower the chances of channelling since you have to grind finer
glad I was not the only one having this issue. I have been using the papers and no matter what I have been doing the espresso came out way more bitter for me with less flavor notes than without the paper filters. Just thought I was not dialed in.
I think there are mixed results, mainly because there are so many variables to this. I think they have the potential to CHANGE a coffee... But not necessarily IMPROVE a coffee.
@@mitchdoescoffee I made some this morning without the paper filter and it brought back all that sweetness and flavor notes and dropped the bitterness back to normal, so much better in my opinion
I wasn't sure if it was the Weber paper that was spoiling your shots or the use of filter paper itself. I have a Weber Unifilter which I use with Cafelat papers (made for their Robot machine), which fit perfectly. I only tried once without the paper: as I recall the shot was similar but with lower TDS. I've never tried Weber's own filter papers.
Larger extraction surface area, a stiffer base (less flex) providing a more even extraction due to less curvature, smaller tolerances in hole discrepancy (compared to IMS)
For me, I use a 21g IMS basket with 18 grams in and 36 out. Wet Weber filter at the bottom, very very gentle tamp, weber filter on top and then screen puck. 30 sec.
@@mitchdoescoffee, Oh yes. You get a more accurate taste of the real coffee. If the coffee roasting process is not good, you will taste it. Usual extraction will give nice flavour but it will not reveal every aspects of the roasting.
Been telling people for the last two years paper has no place in the portafilter 😅. Yeah. Still haven’t tried with paper, but I do appreciate the Unifilter. 🦑
Papers work fine with any basket, doesn't NEED to be a Weber Unifilter, just needs to fit properly and be flat over the holes (not going up along the ledges). Good brothers coffee has a variety of sizes, you can also get a punch and make your own from cheap coffee filters. I think there's actually LESS benefit on already high extracting baskets like the Weber, but it does keep the basket holes from clogging (harder to clean out on those thick baskets). Results wise: maybe it depends on the grinder (and coffee type) you're using and how fine you can grind (not sure there's much benefit in using these with mass produced commodity coffees, it's mainly for specialty light roasts I believe). But I found Just like going from a lower extracting stock basket to a precision basket like VST/IMS etc it is trickier to pull nice looking shots, it gets even harder when you start using a high extracting basket or paper filters and you need to grind even finer. You either just notice the channeling more often with these or it's more likely to channel, but despite not looking great a lot of the times you SHOULD get better / higher extracting coffees. I noticed a bit more amplified flavours basically.
How so? Because from all of my experiments, I've found that the only useful thing the paper onto does is keep the shower screen slightly cleaner... the paper did not change the flavour or extraction at all.
@@mitchdoescoffee It made everything more consistent for me. Before using paper and Sworks screen on the top, my pucks were very soupy and difficult to knock out. Now it's dry and knocks out cleanly. Yes, keeps my whole group head cleaner also.. much less maintenance. That makes it work it to me.
@@mitchdoescoffee It's an E61 machine called the Crem ONE Infuser. It's designed by Expobar and made in China. I've had it three years now and it works like a champ. Plumbed in, programmable pre-infusion and other features. Got it from WLL. I took a chance on something new, but the features were just perfect for me at the time.
I don't have the Unifilter or any "fast flow / holes to the edge" baskets. The rational behind the paper filter is to increase the flow rate which allow a finer grind for same dose of coffee. I tried with a VST 20g basket with Decent DE1 and Niche Zero, and the above theory (for paper filter) seems true. Same flow rate and dose, but I can grind ~2-3 marks finer. The extraction visually is same as not using one, somehow different with your test results, so maybe worth a few tests with even finer grind? For espresso, I can't tell which one is better but the taste is different. For milk based drinks I like those without paper filter more.
This is all true, just like many products on the market they are marketed to "change" but not "improve" your coffee... If we aren't striving for BETTER coffee, what are we trying to do? Buy expensive things?
The paper filters made for the Unifilters/Unibaskets are meant to prevent the filter holes from being clogged. In your video, you should give a few more details about the beans that you use. It sounds as if you were expecting a classical syrupy and chocolaty flavor profile and I can clearly say that the paper filters are not made for these kind of shots. They filter out all the fines and oils. However, I was wondering why you didn’t change the grind size to an even finer setting and instead skipped the paper? The higher flow rate allows for a very fine grind setting and it is not impossible to pull a balanced shot with it. The only difference is the lack of texture. I usually use my Unibasket with a paper filter to extract very lightly roasted beans to highlight the fruity and floral notes and increase clarity while I keep using my VST baskets without paper filters for traditional espresso shots. It is also worth mentioning that paper filters work also pretty well for turbo shots. So what I guess here is that you are simply one of those guys preferring a classical darker roasted chocolaty espresso and therefore can’t stand the clarity it delivers. 😅
You can extract light beans without papers perfectly fine... 👌 These are silly & until someone serves me a BETTER espresso through one of these, I won't change my mind... I ground almost to the point of zeroing out my grinder & it still pulled a "TURBO SHOT" 🤣🤣🤣
I definitely could dive alot deeper... typically I would push VERY hard to find a perfect coffee, but I honestly just felt like I was wasting good beans... Off camera I even played with extraction pressures/temperatures to attempt a good cup... but all was just undrinkable.
@@mitchdoescoffee The paper filter decreases resistance by keeping the holes from being partially or fully clogged, and the unifilter itself also decreases resistance vs a standard basket, so you’ll definitely want to grind finer to have a dialed in shot when using this combo. It sounds like it might not be possible for you to do that, which could be because of a mild alignment issue in your grinder? You’re probably talking about a finer grind than is usually used for espresso to be able to pull shots this way, so it’s totally conceivable that a workable grind setting would be outside of the range of a lot of otherwise espresso-capable grinders. You could arguably call this a point against the paper filter + unifilter combo. I’ve been able to pull good shots with the combo at home, however. Whether these shots are better than what I’d get without paper filters, I couldn’t tell you, because I haven’t compared. If you’re getting shots you’re happy with without paper filters, then there’s probably nothing to worry about, but I personally think you need more information (a dialed in shot, one way or another) to reject the paper filters entirely.
@Trenton Osborn hi Trenton... as I have explained a few times now... I've tried with many extremely high end & well serviced grinders to get great coffee using these & i have replicated reasonable shot times... however, all I have achieved is a sour, under extracted, watery espresso... if this is some new version of good espresso that people are happy with, that's fantastic... But all I see is a really hard way to make inferior espresso.
It certainly looks that way sometimes... unfortunately, the goal of quality espresso is sometimes outweighed by the need for accessory accumulation. (Aka instagram points)
@@mitchdoescoffee I guess Instagram coffee porn brings new people to the love of the bean, so there's a silver lining there. Your content is top...and the Pavoni is the star of the show 🙂
I have tried these with every possible combination possible, with every roast profile & with every grind size imaginable. IN MY OPINION these DO NOT improve my espresso.
You don't need to use anything you don't want. But if you want to get the most out of a really high quality light roast coffee some of these accessories and extra steps like WDT is a good way to achieve that. Puck screens help keep things a lot cleaner longer so I like em.
I am struggling a bit with wether you are trying to troll or you actually think this was a good test and conclusion?
1. The paper filter is not invented by Weber.
2. There have been plenty of data on improved extraction with using paper filters.
This is in my opnion only pronounced in light roasts (where this can give better clarity/flavor seperation) but comes at the cost of mouthfeel.
I hated the papers when i first saw them - but after a lot of blind tasting with a group on light - medium/light coffees i had to conclude that i preferd the shots brewed with the filters. There was also a siginificant difference in messured TDS between filterno filter.
But what is good espresso??? I HATE classic itallien espresso - Robusta rubber, burnt, bitter - i need tons of sugar to drink that.
But i love fruity, sweet espresso (deffently not what the italiens call espresso) - so - Better espresso is quite subjective.....
Exactly... better espresso is subjective. I found it certainly didn't improve my espresso. 👍
Good Italian espresso shouldn’t taste like rubber. You’re probably making it wrong. But enjoy what you like!
Why not just grind finer. Works for me! The paper enables a much higher flow rate because it prevents the holes from getting clogged. And a finer grind size means a higher extraction as long as you're not getting channeling. I haven't tried the unifilter without papers does it clog up really badly?
Because basket clogging simply doesn't exist... Weber has done a very poor job of creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist... #marketing101
@@mitchdoescoffee They do that sometimes it seems, but I think others were doing paper filters on the bottom of their baskets beforehand! They didn't come up with it. If the fines / clogging doesn't happen, then why do you have to grind so much finer with a paper filter, you don't have to use the Weber ones and achieve similar results, You can use an appropriately sized filter with any precision basket (Decent, VST, Pullman etc) with a flat bottom I have filter papers from Good brothers coffee which is 54mm and covers all the holes nicely (could be a little larger) I see now they have 55mm on their site which should fit even better. Alternatively you can make your own with hole cutter devices :)
I just find its completely unnecessary... If it doesn't improve espresso quality or workflow... I don't use it.
@@mitchdoescoffee A lot of people DO find it improves espresso extraction, and taste, as well as workflow (maybe) at least cleaning is easier, especially with that basket that might get clogged up otherwise. If you weren't able to get shot timing right and it was coming out sour, your grinder might be the issue.
@@BensCoffeeRants I spend several hours trying to get what I think is a good espresso from it... using some of the best grinders in the industry... I just feel like they remove some of my favourite attributes of an espresso.
The paper works for me with a standard ims basket and only having to grind slightly finer. I like the taste either way but don't like the extra step and inconvenience.
Would you say it makes for a BETTER espresso?
@@mitchdoescoffee Not really but I do it for cholesterol reasons. Probably doesn't make a difference in the long run but I'm not giving up coffee yet...LOL!
The paper if for ease of nocking out the puck. Can you please make a video showing how the puck gets stuck when not using the paper? I’ve also heard if you grease the unifilter with coconut oil the puck will knock out easier.
I'm not sure if you are making jokes... 🤣
I'm a coffee newbie and the first time I saw the paper and screen, I thought they were just to keep the group head and portafilters clean 😅
To be fair... that is about the only real benefits I've seen. 😅
My understanding is that the paper filter will help get a more even extraction for baskets that don't have holes going all the way to the edge (without papers these baskets will extract less at the edges). For a basket like this that has holes right to the edge it does seem unnecessary to use a paper filter.
That is what I was originally thinking... however all I found was very poor extraction quality... 🙃
Its thicker metal so without the paper filters the Weber seems to get clogged holes easier and it's harder to get them out. Whether it really affects anything I'm not sure might just come out in the next shot. I only tried it without a paper filter once. Easier to clean with the papers. I use them twice. Heh.
I can get a slower pull and a balanced espresso with the unifilter and a paper filter on bottom (perhaps because I use a Decent, or perhaps because of my grinder quality) yet I still agree with him, not a flavor nor mouthfeel I enjoy; and I tried it on a great variety of coffees! I won't say they were bad shots; just not stellar.
❤️
I use wetted paper filters at the bottom of the portafilter all of the time, and have tested with and without numerous times. Never go without now. Not using the filter causes espresso to have more body, yes, but definitely less unique flavor perception (or some may word it like decreased clarity). For my tastes, I don't care so much about thickness of the drink (so long as it's not overly thin) and I primarily want to taste unique interesting things, rather than have the flavors be muddy and muted, or even imperceptible. If it's sour, it needs to be finer grind and/or longer ratio.
Oh also, I do this on a 9 bar Gaggia, and while I can make it work easily for regular timed shots, I've also A/B'd and now use it all of the time with turbo shots (which similarly improves flavor).
Interesting... I think this is where the marketing of the product may have got it wrong... stating that the espresso will be improved is far too subjective...
That is what the science confirms. Puck screens don't have any real evidence to change anything currently but using a paper filter at the bottom, independent of the ratio, was proven to improve extraction constantly quite significantly.
I just got my unibasket today and it was shipped with Weber paper filters. I just couldn’t get a good shot but had way too many espressos today to keep trying. Tomorrow I will try like you did without the paper filter. And my shots we raining down instead of a nice centre stream, but from what I understand that is expected because the holes are all the way to the edge.
"Just have 1 more coffee" 😅
Yes, this basket isn't designed to give you the "instagram shots" but without the papers I found it to give me a coffee that is much more enjoyable.
Did you try without a edge to edge basket ?
Yes... No positive results to report. 🤐
Nice video! Have you tried grinding much finer up to the point of having extractions that are longer than normal (e.g 35+ seconds)?
Also, what's your opinion about using full size paper filters (58mm or 58.5mm) on top of the puck, instead of puck screens?
Thanks mate. I tried & tried & tried all grind settings... I found no matter what I did to the coffee, I just couldn't get a good espresso while using papers... I'm sure will some crazy pressure profiling I might be able to achieve something drinkable... but I feel like we are just trying to solve a problem that shouldn't exist.
Mitch - yep has the same issues with a unibasket paper and a Weber HG2 - went 2 whole steps finer - battery acid - paper in out shaken about etc - finally after maybe 40+ shots bingo I cracked it with around 1 step finer (what’re that is in microns no idea ) and tbh no real difference with paper or not the secret for myself was to ensure a really through wdt (in spite of Weber having a stirring on its grinder) a couple of settle taps prior to tamp and I’m back to where I was prior to trying the basket - better no but my engineering head still says buy a unifilter……..
@@davidpinnington213 if its acidic still pull a longer shot. I used to do more ristrettos but found you can extract longer with the Weber for better results. Although you lose out on some body that way. I found using lower rpm on my grinders seemed to give more acidic results although when cooled it seems better. I always thought higher rpm wasnt as good but lately been enjoying higher rpm for more balance.
I can make the paper filter work, with the vst basket. I do have to buy a smaller diameter (53.5 mm for the 58 mm basket) so it fits perfectly. I have so far a similar expedience with the uni basket and filter paper. It runs just way too fast.
What exactly are you achieving by using the filter paper? 🤔
@mitchdoescoffee more even extraction. I grind slightly finer, run in about the same time, and it gives higher extraction yields. Scott Rao developed the technique, and Lance Hedrick has a video about it showing extraction yields differences within one coffee puck.
I have a spirit basket, and using paper on the bottom of these super high HPI baskets (like the weber) typically gives me highly over extracted shots. On a regular basket like a standard VST/IMS etc, I think they are very useful, and help bump the EY up beyond 20-21%. So either get a VST and use papers, or just buy a Spirit (or knockoff) and don't. I do use puck screens on the top, but that's just for ease of cleaning.
I've never tried on a standard basket like an IMS. I will give it a go.
@@mitchdoescoffee First thing you should try is to lower your head pressure when using the weber + paper - even as low as 6-6.5 bar. This reduced pressure allows for more ground expansion and reduced flow rate.
Lots of good studies out there to check out on the increased flow properties of bottom papers. The basic principle is that the paper creates a solid horizontal 'wicking' layer that allows water to flow not only down through the puck and spread to adjacent holes in the basket, but also across the entire surface of the puck which is in contact with the paper. In practice, this results in higher flow across the entire surface area, meaning one can grind incrementally finer, which should lead to an increase in EY.
With a high HPI basket, this is amplified to the point where you get super high flow rates, leading to fast, under extracted 'sour' shots, similar to what you experienced in the video. Grinding finer in this case typically results in either choking the machine, or more commonly a much higher density puck that is, by its nature, more prone to cracking and channeling. Similar to the concept of flexibility vs tensile strength - ie a more rigid structure is more likely to fracture than deform. At these ultra fine grind sizes, there is physically less space between particles to allow expansion. This is where reducing head pressure can sometimes help prevent this.
IMO, a high HPI basket generates the same result as adding a paper to a lower HPI basket. That said, the highest EY I have ever measured was just shy of 28% using the spirit basket alone - I have never achieved greater than 25% on a 'normal' basket with any combination of paper, grind, etc. To me, this indicates there is a 'sweet spot' where grind size and flow intersect, where the particles have just enough room to expand - but are not so small that they cause cracking/channeling - and hole density is such that water can pass unimpeded straight down through the puck with maximum ground contact.
Definitely try the papers with a standard HPI basket. Note that it is key to ensure the papers are not too large for the basket, and do not extend or deform up the side walls. This creates a junction that is parallel (or near) to the direction of water flow, and thus a path of least resistance. There is also a minor but statistically significant difference in using dry vs pre-wet papers. In my experience, dry papers, perhaps counterintuitively, flow faster.
If you want to get extremely science-y, there are ways to change puck density without changing grind size or tamp. The Porcupress (sp?) has the effect of actually increasing puck density without changes to other variables. The advantage of this approach is that you can keep the grind size coarser, allowing for that particle expansion to take place, while simultaneously slowing flow rate. I would be very, VERY interested to see the results of using a high HPI basket like the weber/spirit, with a bottom filter paper, and using a porcupress with a slightly coarser-than-otherwise-needed grind size. If only I had the $$$.
Do you still recommend the puck screen? Also is your Sanremo Cube R still your favorite machine? I am still trying to decide if I should upgrade from my Flair 58. Thanks!!
No... I've found puck screens don't improve the espresso quality... and that's all I care about.
In that price range... i absolutely stand by the Cube being the best machine. 🙏
@@mitchdoescoffee Thank you for the quick reply! Great info!
Did you updose at all since the basket is deeper or rather holds more coffee? I had to updose one or two grams to get a better shot.
I have tried MANY different recipes including up dosing etc.
@@mitchdoescoffee cool. Just curious. I compared Wafo spirit and Unifilter and the spirit won but I didn’t think the Unifilter was total garbage. I also didn’t use paper filters.
@espressofun6091 awesome feedback mate. Thanks so much
Hi, are you using the paper filter at the bottom or top of the portafilter?
Hello. I tried many different combinations & did not find it to give me any benefits.
@@mitchdoescoffee thanks, I was not sure if it was only and the bottom. And that is supposed to be a good quality paper from Japan.
I wonder what Weber would suggest based on the flavor you got.
What beautiful espresso machine is that? Is this a modded Sanremo?
It sure is... I have some more special mods coming in the near future.
Thank You. Do you make the same observation (paper) with a La Pavoni?
I have never bothered to try them with the LaPavoni... My LP produces incredible coffee, I wouldn't dare mess with such a beautiful coffee. Haha
Absolutely agree while I'm no professional when it comes to espresso making but i don't see or cant see any pros besides as mentioned yes its easier for cleaning. Thanks for reiterating that I'm saving my penny's and making more coffee :)
Thanks Aaron. Happy Brewing mate. 😎
Enables you to grind finer and get a higher more even extraction and potentially better tasting coffee with good coffees at least!
This is my issue with it... I understand what Weber are claiming it does, but this problem simply does not exist in any of my experiments. My coffees are incredible without this as a part of process, and using them simply made bad coffee in my opinion.
@@mitchdoescoffee it's probably your grinder, maybe alignment is off and you can't grind fine enough? I think you mentioned you had some good grinders? You've tried multiple grinders? Just because it's a commercial grinder doesn't mean it's good necessarily.
@@BensCoffeeRants Mahlkonig EK in perfect condition, Sanremo Allground & Mythos 1... It definitely isn't the grinder. Hahaha
Perhaps try changing the temp. Certain coffees gain a lot of clarity from BPF. Consider the thermal mass between portafilters is not the same.
Off camera I have tried hours & hours of all types of temperatures & pressures with a huge array of recipes... and I still have no love for this product.
@@mitchdoescoffee well that is life! we all taste things a bit differently. Good on you for trying!
@finder2267 absolutely. Thanks so much for tuning in. 🙏
Why does this coffee machine look like a gaming rig
I like to modify everything. 😅
different kind of paper provide day and night difference , some paper (like weber one) running too fast and absorb so much superfine + oil . you have to find a paper just hold a good balance , but this is all for the "old" basket to prevent edge underextraction , new fancy basket doesn't need paper at all
Thanks so much for the info. 🙏
I'm using a Cafelat Robot and getting better espresso with a bottom paper. I lose a bit of texture but I get better flavour separation and I can grind finer. Not sure why it didn't make a good coffee for you, maybe you should have gone even finer - rather than add a screen?
Thanks for the feedback mate.
I tried MANY times, and for my taste preference. I just didn't get a great espresso.
@@mitchdoescoffee It's probably just a preference for the sharper acidity on my end.
what brand espresso cup is that? Great video mate!
The Kruve? I can't remember which one I used in this video 😄
haha, no it's like a teal looking thick ceramic espreso cup@@mitchdoescoffee
@@gcn1982 ah. It's a Premiere Tazze 😎😎😎
@@mitchdoescoffee thank you mate!
I have found that because the paper speeds up the extraction I have to grind even finer... and I like it.
So what exactly is it doing to the coffee that you enjoy?
@@mitchdoescoffee For reference, I generally like pretty fruity (acidic) coffees. If I get it right then it's sweet and very clear with little/no bitterness, maybe because of the lack of fines. I know some people say that it can reduce the body of the coffee, but I am ok with the mouthfeel.
@@ybbobmurphy awesome. Thanks for the info. 🙏
Just grinder finer. I use it all the time on my flair 58 with the unifilter and the clarity and sweetness is ridiculous
Unfortunately no matter how fine I ground, I didn't experience any good coffees. 🙃
@@mitchdoescoffee I think the issue is you have to have flow profiling on the machine and preinfusion to lower the chances of channelling since you have to grind finer
glad I was not the only one having this issue. I have been using the papers and no matter what I have been doing the espresso came out way more bitter for me with less flavor notes than without the paper filters. Just thought I was not dialed in.
I think there are mixed results, mainly because there are so many variables to this.
I think they have the potential to CHANGE a coffee... But not necessarily IMPROVE a coffee.
@@mitchdoescoffee I made some this morning without the paper filter and it brought back all that sweetness and flavor notes and dropped the bitterness back to normal, so much better in my opinion
I wasn't sure if it was the Weber paper that was spoiling your shots or the use of filter paper itself. I have a Weber Unifilter which I use with Cafelat papers (made for their Robot machine), which fit perfectly. I only tried once without the paper: as I recall the shot was similar but with lower TDS. I've never tried Weber's own filter papers.
Are you getting a BETTER shot with the Weber?
The shots are a tad sweeter than those from the VST@@mitchdoescoffee
@@matthewhoffman6868 ah awesome. Are you finding the same results for all roast types?
@@mitchdoescoffee I use the Unifilter for light roasts only. I find it over-extracts darker roasts.
@matthewhoffman6868 thanks mate. I'll have another go with something lighter and see how it pulls. 👍
Ok so my question. What does the unfilter offer that a standard portafilter and basket doesn't?? Other than some really nice aesthetics.
Larger extraction surface area, a stiffer base (less flex) providing a more even extraction due to less curvature, smaller tolerances in hole discrepancy (compared to IMS)
@@mitchdoescoffee did it make a tastier espresso than traditional setup ?
@@jessandrin I wouldn't say that so much... maybe safer to say it would remove some variables... $550usd worth of variables...? Maybe not. 🤣
@@mitchdoescoffee playing it safe with the reply haha
Gotta keep it strategic... 🤣
For me, I use a 21g IMS basket with 18 grams in and 36 out. Wet Weber filter at the bottom, very very gentle tamp, weber filter on top and then screen puck. 30 sec.
In your opinion, does this IMPROVE the coffee?
@@mitchdoescoffee, Oh yes. You get a more accurate taste of the real coffee. If the coffee roasting process is not good, you will taste it. Usual extraction will give nice flavour but it will not reveal every aspects of the roasting.
Some coffee will not taste good with that process because it reveals the lacks of the roasting.
@@panikpas are you referring to light roasts?
@@mitchdoescoffee, no, just bad roast and bad coffee.
Been telling people for the last two years paper has no place in the portafilter 😅. Yeah. Still haven’t tried with paper, but I do appreciate the Unifilter. 🦑
"But lance told me to use them" 😝
Papers work fine with any basket, doesn't NEED to be a Weber Unifilter, just needs to fit properly and be flat over the holes (not going up along the ledges). Good brothers coffee has a variety of sizes, you can also get a punch and make your own from cheap coffee filters.
I think there's actually LESS benefit on already high extracting baskets like the Weber, but it does keep the basket holes from clogging (harder to clean out on those thick baskets).
Results wise: maybe it depends on the grinder (and coffee type) you're using and how fine you can grind (not sure there's much benefit in using these with mass produced commodity coffees, it's mainly for specialty light roasts I believe). But I found Just like going from a lower extracting stock basket to a precision basket like VST/IMS etc it is trickier to pull nice looking shots, it gets even harder when you start using a high extracting basket or paper filters and you need to grind even finer. You either just notice the channeling more often with these or it's more likely to channel, but despite not looking great a lot of the times you SHOULD get better / higher extracting coffees. I noticed a bit more amplified flavours basically.
Thanks for the info mate. I think they just don't suit my taste preference...
Try the paper on the top of the puck. It's amazing.
How so? Because from all of my experiments, I've found that the only useful thing the paper onto does is keep the shower screen slightly cleaner... the paper did not change the flavour or extraction at all.
@@mitchdoescoffee It made everything more consistent for me. Before using paper and Sworks screen on the top, my pucks were very soupy and difficult to knock out. Now it's dry and knocks out cleanly. Yes, keeps my whole group head cleaner also.. much less maintenance. That makes it work it to me.
@blutcherama that's awesome! 🙏 What machine are you using?
@@mitchdoescoffee It's an E61 machine called the Crem ONE Infuser. It's designed by Expobar and made in China. I've had it three years now and it works like a champ. Plumbed in, programmable pre-infusion and other features. Got it from WLL. I took a chance on something new, but the features were just perfect for me at the time.
@blutcherama ah yes, I know that machine very well. What's your typical extraction recipe? Temp, pre-infusion pressure & extraction pressure?
I don't have the Unifilter or any "fast flow / holes to the edge" baskets. The rational behind the paper filter is to increase the flow rate which allow a finer grind for same dose of coffee.
I tried with a VST 20g basket with Decent DE1 and Niche Zero, and the above theory (for paper filter) seems true. Same flow rate and dose, but I can grind ~2-3 marks finer.
The extraction visually is same as not using one, somehow different with your test results, so maybe worth a few tests with even finer grind?
For espresso, I can't tell which one is better but the taste is different. For milk based drinks I like those without paper filter more.
This is all true, just like many products on the market they are marketed to "change" but not "improve" your coffee... If we aren't striving for BETTER coffee, what are we trying to do? Buy expensive things?
I use papers on the top just to protect the group head
Does it change your coffee taste at all?
This needs more views. I’ve stoped using bottom filters on my espresso since your last vid. Much better
Thanks Pascal. My goal is never to talk bad about a product... However we do whatever it takes for a better coffee.
over 300USD for a unifilter. its a crazy amount of money for a sieve
😅 nailed it.
Yea wow I only like the paper because of knocking the puck out. I find it makes such a mess
I agree. It definitely removes some great flavours though.
@@mitchdoescoffee I’ll make sure I try it again
Maybe worth try some of those E&B nano coated baskets. The puck falls out very easily, but the basket scratch very easily as well...
@@tamninja thanks for that
I’ve got pull man precision baskets they seem to be good
@@antoniokozmas9916 I think Lance Hederik said Pullman taste best if you’re not getting those fancy baskets!
The paper filters made for the Unifilters/Unibaskets are meant to prevent the filter holes from being clogged.
In your video, you should give a few more details about the beans that you use. It sounds as if you were expecting a classical syrupy and chocolaty flavor profile and I can clearly say that the paper filters are not made for these kind of shots. They filter out all the fines and oils.
However, I was wondering why you didn’t change the grind size to an even finer setting and instead skipped the paper? The higher flow rate allows for a very fine grind setting and it is not impossible to pull a balanced shot with it. The only difference is the lack of texture.
I usually use my Unibasket with a paper filter to extract very lightly roasted beans to highlight the fruity and floral notes and increase clarity while I keep using my VST baskets without paper filters for traditional espresso shots. It is also worth mentioning that paper filters work also pretty well for turbo shots.
So what I guess here is that you are simply one of those guys preferring a classical darker roasted chocolaty espresso and therefore can’t stand the clarity it delivers. 😅
You can extract light beans without papers perfectly fine... 👌 These are silly & until someone serves me a BETTER espresso through one of these, I won't change my mind...
I ground almost to the point of zeroing out my grinder & it still pulled a "TURBO SHOT" 🤣🤣🤣
@@mitchdoescoffee That sounds pretty unusual and you should definitely give more details about the beans and parameters from your tests. 🤔
I definitely could dive alot deeper... typically I would push VERY hard to find a perfect coffee, but I honestly just felt like I was wasting good beans... Off camera I even played with extraction pressures/temperatures to attempt a good cup... but all was just undrinkable.
@@mitchdoescoffee The paper filter decreases resistance by keeping the holes from being partially or fully clogged, and the unifilter itself also decreases resistance vs a standard basket, so you’ll definitely want to grind finer to have a dialed in shot when using this combo. It sounds like it might not be possible for you to do that, which could be because of a mild alignment issue in your grinder? You’re probably talking about a finer grind than is usually used for espresso to be able to pull shots this way, so it’s totally conceivable that a workable grind setting would be outside of the range of a lot of otherwise espresso-capable grinders. You could arguably call this a point against the paper filter + unifilter combo.
I’ve been able to pull good shots with the combo at home, however. Whether these shots are better than what I’d get without paper filters, I couldn’t tell you, because I haven’t compared. If you’re getting shots you’re happy with without paper filters, then there’s probably nothing to worry about, but I personally think you need more information (a dialed in shot, one way or another) to reject the paper filters entirely.
@Trenton Osborn hi Trenton... as I have explained a few times now... I've tried with many extremely high end & well serviced grinders to get great coffee using these & i have replicated reasonable shot times... however, all I have achieved is a sour, under extracted, watery espresso... if this is some new version of good espresso that people are happy with, that's fantastic... But all I see is a really hard way to make inferior espresso.
I use the bottom filter paper for cholesterol reasons.
LDL is a subject I've been looking into & yes, unfiltered espresso can show signs of raised LDL, but not anywhere near as much as many "normal" foods.
@@mitchdoescoffee I agree 100 percent. Great educational/informative content you are providing. Awesome.
@@Luka-kb5tk thank you so much for the kind words ❤️
more abuse is needed, these companies are having a giraffe
It certainly looks that way sometimes... unfortunately, the goal of quality espresso is sometimes outweighed by the need for accessory accumulation. (Aka instagram points)
@@mitchdoescoffee I guess Instagram coffee porn brings new people to the love of the bean, so there's a silver lining there. Your content is top...and the Pavoni is the star of the show 🙂
@shinchima for sure... plus it gives me controversial content 😅
God Bless Mitch does Coffee 🙏☕
God Bless President Trump 🙏🇺🇲
All I'm saying is... Trump or God didn't make anyone a coffee today. 😎
You used the papers incorrectly. The must be wet at the bottom of the portafilter, please re do the test and ask Jonathan Gagneau for info
I have tried these with every possible combination possible, with every roast profile & with every grind size imaginable. IN MY OPINION these DO NOT improve my espresso.
@@mitchdoescoffee Did you measure using a TDS gadget?
Paper Filters, puck screens..it never ends
Hopefully it will one day... 🤣
You don't need to use anything you don't want. But if you want to get the most out of a really high quality light roast coffee some of these accessories and extra steps like WDT is a good way to achieve that. Puck screens help keep things a lot cleaner longer so I like em.