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Imagine caring about the matchmaking system on a copy paste game like call of duty and losing friends over it, actually insane. As usual, Taylor hits the nail on the head 30 seconds in.
It’s perfectly fine to dislike the matchmaking, it’s just that caring this much is silly. “Imagine caring” isn’t a great way of putting it. I mean it is the exact reason I stopped playing call of duty myself, and I’d like for it to be better so I’d want to play again.
Maybe before like 2022. Whatever they changed to matchmaking completely destroyed the game. Every single match became one side completely dominating the other until Round 6, then a couple people would be auto-teamed to balance, and the other team would dominate until Round 6. Every. Single. Game. Would go until match point. No one wants to play the same map with the same team for over an hour in CSGO. I haven’t played CS2 enough yet to know if this is still a problem. But it definitely seems back to how CSGO was before they completely destroyed it.
I definitely see both sides. This one game I’m in suffers from the problem Hutch is talking about. It’s called super fighters deluxe, the only people who play are veterans who’ve been playing for YEARS, new players join get killed and refund it before the refund window expires. And there is little single player content for them to fine tune their skills in. Maybe SBMM isn’t the answer tho. Maybe if there was more single player content for them to learn, or maybe if there were beginner lobbies, or lower the price. I def agree that connection should be #1 priority.
@@rickavory upon consideration the original point i was trying to make doesnt really hold. However i think i can explain what i think is BS about the pro sbmm argument. Which is that hey as a long time gamer who has sunk soo much money into games and what not for decades, i, like most gamers i know, hate sbmm. Therefor get rid of it... thanks to battlebit we KNOW a game CAN be made with the main customers considerations in mind (imagine that) and it can be profitable. Is it a bad thing for devs to be a little less focused on fingering us with micro transactions and maybe instead working with their core customers whose games very existence depends on. Absolute madness, how wi66ers be sticking up for "AAA" developers and their fingering i'll never know
Caught that. Guess he meant predators/carnivores, likrly carnivores as it sounds similar to cannibals. He can be a doof but tbf, if you talk for hours at a time youll say something stupid. By either relaxing too much or being uptight.
@@tpecky5835but literally every other game tries to match you with people of your skull Group in League a Gold 1 Player might play with a Gold 3 Player their skill is defenitely Not the same but similar cod on the other hand tries to literally match you against the same skill Player if kda is 2.5 it will only match you with other 2.5s no matter how far away they are instead of giving you a couple 2.4s. In your lobby to have a better connection
The solution is so simple and obvious it blows my mind nobody talks about it. Offer both SBMM and open modes. SBMM benifits lower skill players most. I consider myself semi-talented at fps games and SBMM feels like whiplash betweem stomping for a game and getting pushed in for 3 in a row. Its constant swing which is discouraging because there is no feeling of progression or reward for improving.
@@bobdrooples What is that for a reply to that op said????? they clearly are bringing up the point where sbmm does drive up ping to get a "similar" skilled lobby when the better you get the more ping comes into play.
@@tequilawhiskeyit’s not, I’ve experienced it firsthand on my own account, and my buddies account when I stayed over his house for a few days to grind levels/unlocks on his account for him. And it’s not just a like a little lag you can play around , it’s 100% negatively impacting your gameplay level lag
@@aidangraham892 thats pretty wild. I mean i would think theres a happy middle ground where you can have okay skill matching but also not destroy latency. Granted, the only game i put any comp effort is 4v4, and its got a less than ideal pop, so idk if ive ever seen a solid example.
@@essvd2524 You don't have to, but is how it works now better? I get you're doing devil's advocate, but it's pretty empty headed to say no benefit is better out of being a contrarion. What you should say is you want all games to not have sbmm at all
Please just listen to this story for me. I’m 21 my brother is 31 him and I are very close, I haven’t been playing cod for a few years now he still does but very casually with a few friends, he wanted to buy me mw3 2023 so we could relive the mw2 maps and play some zombies together like old times, (not to mention how trash the zombies is) he told me a few days ago in a very somber tone “hey bud it’s cool if you wanna stay in this lobby but I think I’ll queue one up alone because all these guys are freaks.” That broke my heart he spent money on this game for him and I to enjoy together and we CANNOT play together I’ll drop 40 and he can’t get 4 kills I am not exaggerating at all SBMM ruins games for the true community that keep games alive
Hutch mentions player retention as if skill based isn’t the main reason all of us aren’t buying the game. Woody’s point about his friends being way better and ruining it for him is exactly why I’m not playing it.
the biggest problem with sbmm isnt even sbmm, its how business models work for these companies. the fact that money is made based on player retention rather than a consumer just buying the game means that every possible way that the game can trick you into playing more, it must do. if low skill players leave because they get smacked around in their first games then that is entirely on them as players and no one else. they should not be protected because they clearly dont gaf about the game anyway. high skill players on the other hand having to play every single match like its the super bowl is awful and makes the game not enjoyable to play whatsoever. the counter argument to this being "oh so you just want to play an easy stomp game loser" is so retarded. i want to play a game where in an unranked gamemode i play against a random pool of people. in this random pool of people, i win and lose based on my relative skill to the community and am able to play in a casual manner and have a chill time.
@roguis3451 yeah but as a new player too battle royals games, it can be harder to find a lobby due to sbmm. When battlefront 1 came out it was so easy to get a lobby of 40. A year later its impossible. It should be connection settings, how can i get better if i can't even get into a lobby....arcade rewards is a literal farm.
Did MW2 have sbmm? I dont remember but I had a blast playing it in high-school even if i wasn't the best. Whenever i would get stomped it would motivate me.
@@ethanpeeples6187the long short of it is that no match feels like you did exceptionally well since you get paired with people around your skill level. Probably the worst system ever implemented because it makes learning the game less rewarding.
No, 2009 MW2 didn't have SBMM. I don't think COD had SBMM until maybe BO3. SBMM is great when you have a lot of drive in playing a game at the best of your ability all the time, but if you are a casual who wants to sweat sometimes you will play against better players. But the issue is when you want to chill and not have to worry going passed a line because that will switch up spawns or whatever. It can be very draining.
@@DakotaTheRotathere was always some amount of sbmm, it just prioritised connection, and was all based on party/lobby host. That's why we would manipulate it so we could stomp noobs on new accounts
People downplay sbmm, I physically cannot play a game without feeling like I’m playing ranked mode. Cs2’s casual mode is what og multiplayer used to feel like. All they gotta do is split it into a dedicated ranked mode like they have been failing to do for years.
Hutch didn't have any points other than it makes company more money, its clear it doesn't make the fans happy, nobody complained about it back in the day and he has no counter to this other than a player retention algorithm has decided the ideal way to milk the most money out of people with microtransactions. Does that sound it could ever be fun? blametruth was more coarse, sure, but it doesn't mean he's wrong. In the end, they still agreed with blametruth in spite of him being meaner about it.
It isn't the whole community. 90% of the people playing cod aren't on twitter, reddit, or youtube having deep discussions about it. It's some little kids, or some dads who play for like 25 mins to an hour and don't even know what sbmm is. All they know is that if they get stomped 3 times in a row, they'll never play/buy the game again. Yall people who are online complaining about sbmm are the vast minority of gamers. A publisher isn't gonna value your opinion any more than theirs, because they see both of you as walking money bags, and guess what homie, the other people are a much bigger pot of money than you guys are. It's literally that simple.
My wife doesnt like playing fortnite because i play with her in her lobbies, we get 5 wins im a row, it then puts her in my lobbies and she cant land without dying, then when she plays solo and with her friends it puts her in my lobbies
I think they should bring boot camp back. bo2 had it, where only players with a level of 1-10 could join in the lobbies. This would be a great way to get newbies in with other newbies and work to help them warm up and or get familiar with the game.
Pka is obsessed with these old af cod guys. Be cool if pka actually got people who have been relevant in the last 5 years in the game on. It's like when rogan brings up quake everytime someone mentions gaming
Hutch is literally wrong opinion’d about everything I have a solution tho and this is going to be crazy you have ranked which is based on sbmm and unranked based on connection
Hutch didn't have any points other than it makes company more money, its clear it doesn't make the fans happy, nobody complained about it back in the day and he has no counter to this other than a player retention algorithm has decided the ideal way to milk the most money out of people. Does that sound fun? blametruth was more coarse, sure, but it doesen't mean hes wrong. In the end, they still agreed with blametruth in spite of him being meaner about it.
Idc what anyone says SBMM is fine. But not on a match by match basis. Should be based on overall statistics per player. To my knowledge it's match to match based. Youll pop off one game and get thrown in with absolute sweats. But people saying "oh its because the commection is worse." No. You're just mad you cant go 30-1 every single match and are being forced to get better against better players.
Definitely telling that the one dude was like “I just disagree, there’s no beef on my end I just like skill based matchmaking for xy and z” and the other is so titled he lost a friend over it and tried to make it political
We didnt need sbmm as much back in the day.... We did t have people with 15 years of fps experience. Also I find whining about sbmm kinda lame. I play alot of pickup basketball. Its much more fun when everyone is close in skill. I would rather have a compettive game than "pubstomp" and get my jollies from humilating some one just trying to get in shape. Kinda weak if you dont want to play the best but thats just me.
@@JuryRigJohn youre right! But It's never the lower skilled players complaining. I have no idea what compelled me to say anything lol I personally enjoy a competitive game than blow outs. But you're right I selfishly want to play against the best.
@@MrVaNiLlApHaNtAsY see and that's the beautiful thing you don't have to sweat it out and you will play against people of that skill. You also won't ruin the game for those that do want to get sweaty!
@@jakeshook7323 my normal play, which isn’t the best, puts me in lobbies that I have to sweat to barely go positive. I’m not trying to roll over anyone but I’d like to be able to play the game casually from time to time and not feel like every match is ranked
SBMM will always be an excuse to me. I just accept the truth that people are just better than me and its not like the old days 🤷♂ Blame Truth just cant accept that Hes a grown man and needs to accept that
The biggest problem with SBMM is its constrained by whos online You can be matched against only people of your skill level, but those people need to actually playing at the time and that game mode youre playing So yeah, its not perfect and realistically cant be
![[4K] Watch SpaceX Catch A Starship Rocket From Space!!! #IFT5](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pIKI7y3DTXk/mqdefault.jpg)
Imagine caring about the matchmaking system on a copy paste game like call of duty and losing friends over it, actually insane.
As usual, Taylor hits the nail on the head 30 seconds in.
If you lose your friends over it. They werent a friend
they were never “friends”. acquaintances maybe
lol taylor knows probably the least about call of duty and sbmm
Games or politics.
It’s perfectly fine to dislike the matchmaking, it’s just that caring this much is silly. “Imagine caring” isn’t a great way of putting it. I mean it is the exact reason I stopped playing call of duty myself, and I’d like for it to be better so I’d want to play again.
Just do what CSGO does. Both Ping and Skill are weighed
Maybe before like 2022. Whatever they changed to matchmaking completely destroyed the game. Every single match became one side completely dominating the other until Round 6, then a couple people would be auto-teamed to balance, and the other team would dominate until Round 6.
Every. Single. Game. Would go until match point. No one wants to play the same map with the same team for over an hour in CSGO.
I haven’t played CS2 enough yet to know if this is still a problem. But it definitely seems back to how CSGO was before they completely destroyed it.
I definitely see both sides. This one game I’m in suffers from the problem Hutch is talking about. It’s called super fighters deluxe, the only people who play are veterans who’ve been playing for YEARS, new players join get killed and refund it before the refund window expires. And there is little single player content for them to fine tune their skills in.
Maybe SBMM isn’t the answer tho. Maybe if there was more single player content for them to learn, or maybe if there were beginner lobbies, or lower the price. I def agree that connection should be #1 priority.
Connection first is the best way with a level-based matchmaking system to keep new players from running into swears
as a person that doesnt play cod, it sounds to me like they should continue with sbmm but just crank it down
these extra players that they apparently get, how long do they stay???? i bet it aint long...
@@dploi what?
@@rickavory upon consideration the original point i was trying to make doesnt really hold. However i think i can explain what i think is BS about the pro sbmm argument. Which is that hey as a long time gamer who has sunk soo much money into games and what not for decades, i, like most gamers i know, hate sbmm. Therefor get rid of it... thanks to battlebit we KNOW a game CAN be made with the main customers considerations in mind (imagine that) and it can be profitable.
Is it a bad thing for devs to be a little less focused on fingering us with micro transactions and maybe instead working with their core customers whose games very existence depends on.
Absolute madness, how wi66ers be sticking up for "AAA" developers and their fingering i'll never know
I think woody needs a refresher on what a cannibal is because by definition the cannibals don’t eat the deer and other prey
Caught that. Guess he meant predators/carnivores, likrly carnivores as it sounds similar to cannibals. He can be a doof but tbf, if you talk for hours at a time youll say something stupid. By either relaxing too much or being uptight.
Connection is the most paramount thing to retain me as a player...
Apex literally has this all figured out with this little game mode called ranked it’s an insane concept
Cod and every other aaa fps game has ranked and also sbmm in there unranked playlists, including apex. Dunno how people are this uninformed.
@@tpecky5835but literally every other game tries to match you with people of your skull Group in League a Gold 1 Player might play with a Gold 3 Player their skill is defenitely Not the same but similar cod on the other hand tries to literally match you against the same skill Player if kda is 2.5 it will only match you with other 2.5s no matter how far away they are instead of giving you a couple 2.4s. In your lobby to have a better connection
yeah but casual matches still have some kind of matchmaking algorithm, cods is just too strong i guess
The solution is so simple and obvious it blows my mind nobody talks about it. Offer both SBMM and open modes. SBMM benifits lower skill players most.
I consider myself semi-talented at fps games and SBMM feels like whiplash betweem stomping for a game and getting pushed in for 3 in a row. Its constant swing which is discouraging because there is no feeling of progression or reward for improving.
Well said, the contrast is not fun and like you mentioned you don't feel like you are making any progress
SBMM, 4 letters that completely ruin a series that literally only had to copy and paste for success.
I feel like Hutch isn’t addressing this most important point, which is the connection. That should 100% be the #1 priority.
Nope, you pay the same price for the game. Shouldn't make a difference.
@@bobdrooples What is that for a reply to that op said????? they clearly are bringing up the point where sbmm does drive up ping to get a "similar" skilled lobby when the better you get the more ping comes into play.
Ive never heard of that being a thing until now, but i dont really play comp shooters.
It sounds like it could be a BS argument.
@@tequilawhiskeyit’s not, I’ve experienced it firsthand on my own account, and my buddies account when I stayed over his house for a few days to grind levels/unlocks on his account for him. And it’s not just a like a little lag you can play around , it’s 100% negatively impacting your gameplay level lag
@@aidangraham892 thats pretty wild. I mean i would think theres a happy middle ground where you can have okay skill matching but also not destroy latency.
Granted, the only game i put any comp effort is 4v4, and its got a less than ideal pop, so idk if ive ever seen a solid example.
Hutch is wrong. Ranked playlists is where you go to play against people of your skill level.
You completely missed his point
so if you want to play a couple of matches to chill, you shouldnt play casual, you should play ranked?
@@roguis3451 yes
Imagine caring about this for one, but imagine being trash at cod like Hutch and BlameTruth and caring about this LOL
Wings has a lot of great insight into this
its just the haters that arent camping
Honestly, I feel like the way to combat this is to pad peoples' egos. And just heavily weight their sbmm "skill value" into their competitive rank
What if people don’t want to play competitive all day
@@essvd2524 You don't have to, but is how it works now better? I get you're doing devil's advocate, but it's pretty empty headed to say no benefit is better out of being a contrarion. What you should say is you want all games to not have sbmm at all
Please just listen to this story for me. I’m 21 my brother is 31 him and I are very close, I haven’t been playing cod for a few years now he still does but very casually with a few friends, he wanted to buy me mw3 2023 so we could relive the mw2 maps and play some zombies together like old times, (not to mention how trash the zombies is) he told me a few days ago in a very somber tone “hey bud it’s cool if you wanna stay in this lobby but I think I’ll queue one up alone because all these guys are freaks.” That broke my heart he spent money on this game for him and I to enjoy together and we CANNOT play together I’ll drop 40 and he can’t get 4 kills I am not exaggerating at all SBMM ruins games for the true community that keep games alive
Hutch mentions player retention as if skill based isn’t the main reason all of us aren’t buying the game. Woody’s point about his friends being way better and ruining it for him is exactly why I’m not playing it.
I'm hooked on that Battlebit now
the biggest problem with sbmm isnt even sbmm, its how business models work for these companies. the fact that money is made based on player retention rather than a consumer just buying the game means that every possible way that the game can trick you into playing more, it must do. if low skill players leave because they get smacked around in their first games then that is entirely on them as players and no one else. they should not be protected because they clearly dont gaf about the game anyway. high skill players on the other hand having to play every single match like its the super bowl is awful and makes the game not enjoyable to play whatsoever. the counter argument to this being "oh so you just want to play an easy stomp game loser" is so retarded. i want to play a game where in an unranked gamemode i play against a random pool of people. in this random pool of people, i win and lose based on my relative skill to the community and am able to play in a casual manner and have a chill time.
how can you care about a game you just got if you cant enjoy it in any way? why put in the effort if you could just play something fun
@roguis3451 yeah but as a new player too battle royals games, it can be harder to find a lobby due to sbmm.
When battlefront 1 came out it was so easy to get a lobby of 40. A year later its impossible.
It should be connection settings, how can i get better if i can't even get into a lobby....arcade rewards is a literal farm.
Did MW2 have sbmm? I dont remember but I had a blast playing it in high-school even if i wasn't the best. Whenever i would get stomped it would motivate me.
I never thought it did, I saw someone bring up how no1 complained back then so if it did have sbmm it was nothing like it is now for sure
@@bleach_my_eyes_plz I haven't touched COD since BLack ops 2 so idk what it's like now.
@@ethanpeeples6187the long short of it is that no match feels like you did exceptionally well since you get paired with people around your skill level. Probably the worst system ever implemented because it makes learning the game less rewarding.
No, 2009 MW2 didn't have SBMM. I don't think COD had SBMM until maybe BO3. SBMM is great when you have a lot of drive in playing a game at the best of your ability all the time, but if you are a casual who wants to sweat sometimes you will play against better players. But the issue is when you want to chill and not have to worry going passed a line because that will switch up spawns or whatever. It can be very draining.
@@DakotaTheRotathere was always some amount of sbmm, it just prioritised connection, and was all based on party/lobby host. That's why we would manipulate it so we could stomp noobs on new accounts
My favorite MW2 bug was the couple days of full auto 105mm on the AC-130.
People downplay sbmm, I physically cannot play a game without feeling like I’m playing ranked mode. Cs2’s casual mode is what og multiplayer used to feel like. All they gotta do is split it into a dedicated ranked mode like they have been failing to do for years.
Hutch didn't have any points other than it makes company more money, its clear it doesn't make the fans happy, nobody complained about it back in the day and he has no counter to this other than a player retention algorithm has decided the ideal way to milk the most money out of people with microtransactions. Does that sound it could ever be fun? blametruth was more coarse, sure, but it doesn't mean he's wrong. In the end, they still agreed with blametruth in spite of him being meaner about it.
Watch the entire video.
Kyle would probs end himself if Wings kicked him out of a party.
Gotta love how one of the biggest criticisms from the WHOLE COMMUNITY is that they don’t like SBMM, yet Hutch just goes “hurr durr RUclipsrs”
and how trying to convince devs to change things "is just stupid"
It isn't the whole community. 90% of the people playing cod aren't on twitter, reddit, or youtube having deep discussions about it. It's some little kids, or some dads who play for like 25 mins to an hour and don't even know what sbmm is. All they know is that if they get stomped 3 times in a row, they'll never play/buy the game again. Yall people who are online complaining about sbmm are the vast minority of gamers. A publisher isn't gonna value your opinion any more than theirs, because they see both of you as walking money bags, and guess what homie, the other people are a much bigger pot of money than you guys are. It's literally that simple.
The vocal minority is not the WHOLE COMMUNITY.
@@JohnHilton-dz4mi it’s still one of the biggest criticisms about the new games
My wife doesnt like playing fortnite because i play with her in her lobbies, we get 5 wins im a row, it then puts her in my lobbies and she cant land without dying, then when she plays solo and with her friends it puts her in my lobbies
I think they should bring boot camp back. bo2 had it, where only players with a level of 1-10 could join in the lobbies. This would be a great way to get newbies in with other newbies and work to help them warm up and or get familiar with the game.
I get both sides but hutch makes me irrationally angry
ngl he seemed more reasonable than the other guy
@@roguis3451No way, hutch is so whiney. Everything he hears he just says the opposite
Man this guy really likes to hear himself talk. Why doesnt he just sit on his channel and talk about it to himself or his "viewers"
Pka is obsessed with these old af cod guys. Be cool if pka actually got people who have been relevant in the last 5 years in the game on. It's like when rogan brings up quake everytime someone mentions gaming
Lol woody always gets so salty about MW2 because it was/is so popular
You can hear the cope leaking from Hutch.
why
Hutch is literally wrong opinion’d about everything I have a solution tho and this is going to be crazy you have ranked which is based on sbmm and unranked based on connection
But there has always been a solution. Comp/ranked play
Regardless of the SBMM debate everyone agrees the Border Crossing map is trash.
as a non fps player skill based match making is just the norm how is this a convo?
I’m against in SBMM in FPS’s pro SBMM in FG’s.
Hutch is definitely right on this, blametruth always comes off like an angry kid who hasn’t got his way
Hutch didn't have any points other than it makes company more money, its clear it doesn't make the fans happy, nobody complained about it back in the day and he has no counter to this other than a player retention algorithm has decided the ideal way to milk the most money out of people. Does that sound fun? blametruth was more coarse, sure, but it doesen't mean hes wrong. In the end, they still agreed with blametruth in spite of him being meaner about it.
@@Sippio I don't like it either, but clearly most fans do, because the implementation of SBMM increases player retention
Reverse boosting is pathetic
I mean I get it, but its pathetic
Blame truth is honestly a toddler and a grifter of cod hate.
what's a cod?
🐟
Just have casual and ranked modes. Hasn't this been the standard forever now?
Cbmm made ever match fair because everyone was different. Sbmm makes every match unfair because everyone is a little better than you
If you're the worst player in every lobby that's a skill issue.
every match in the cod is the same. there’s always 1 player doing great. 2 doing okay and then 2 doing terrible. in every match on both teams.
LOL hutch saying it seems the same to me is an obvious tell he is terrible at the game and doesn’t have any idea what sbmm even really is
Meow
Idc what anyone says SBMM is fine. But not on a match by match basis. Should be based on overall statistics per player.
To my knowledge it's match to match based. Youll pop off one game and get thrown in with absolute sweats.
But people saying "oh its because the commection is worse." No. You're just mad you cant go 30-1 every single match and are being forced to get better against better players.
My issue is the matchmaking that ensures 50% win rate. I want to play a game not flip a coin.
Definitely telling that the one dude was like “I just disagree, there’s no beef on my end I just like skill based matchmaking for xy and z” and the other is so titled he lost a friend over it and tried to make it political
big ups
16 minutes in before i realised that was call of duty footage
Cringe
5:02 sweat lords should have more fun against other swear lords, unless they're small children who just want to hit a button that says "you win"
We didnt need sbmm as much back in the day.... We did t have people with 15 years of fps experience.
Also I find whining about sbmm kinda lame. I play alot of pickup basketball. Its much more fun when everyone is close in skill. I would rather have a compettive game than "pubstomp" and get my jollies from humilating some one just trying to get in shape.
Kinda weak if you dont want to play the best but thats just me.
“Kinda weak if you don’t want to play against the best” arguing to keep low skill players away from high skill players. That seems inconsistent
I work 10 hour days. I don’t want to come home and sweat at a game throughout the few free hours I have
@@JuryRigJohn youre right! But It's never the lower skilled players complaining. I have no idea what compelled me to say anything lol I personally enjoy a competitive game than blow outs. But you're right I selfishly want to play against the best.
@@MrVaNiLlApHaNtAsY see and that's the beautiful thing you don't have to sweat it out and you will play against people of that skill. You also won't ruin the game for those that do want to get sweaty!
@@jakeshook7323 my normal play, which isn’t the best, puts me in lobbies that I have to sweat to barely go positive. I’m not trying to roll over anyone but I’d like to be able to play the game casually from time to time and not feel like every match is ranked
SBMM will always be an excuse to me. I just accept the truth that people are just better than me and its not like the old days 🤷♂ Blame Truth just cant accept that Hes a grown man and needs to accept that
counterstrike is a nearly 30 year old game with no sbmm, also arguably more popular than cod
Counterstrike definitely has SBMM.
Make it a toggle, easy done. everyone happy.
be able to join ranked, or unranked.
EASY
The biggest problem with SBMM is its constrained by whos online
You can be matched against only people of your skill level, but those people need to actually playing at the time and that game mode youre playing
So yeah, its not perfect and realistically cant be