SY Cable is Not Armoured, Not for Outside Use
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
- An example of some SY cable which had been used outside and underground. The outer covering is degraded and cracked, the inner steel braid is rusting away.
SY cable isn't suitable for use outside, it is not an armoured cable, despite many people using it like that.
► Social Media:
Twitter: / jwflame
Instagram: / jwflame
Facebook: / jwflame
► Support this channel:
Patreon: / jwflame
PayPal Donations: xo4.uk/?PPP
► Contact info, sending stuff in: etc.:
xo4.uk/?YTT
Website: www.flameport.com 
Наука
“Asbestos or cocaine or whatever”
wasn't expecting that, I spat my tea out 😂
Which one is it though, I urgently need to know.
@@jaro6985 Both were everywhere in the ‘80s, and nobody cared how deadly they were…
That’s what AC means.
I think it's powdered uranium.
no you didn't
“Cocaine spilling out” 🤣 love your dry humour JW
Or asbestos!
@@JimWhitaker proceeds to rub in it with his fingers
JW cracks me up with these witty remarks... you just have to love the guy👍
1:50 what a great invention JW. the police would never think to look there...you absolute Genius...
Yours sincerely. - El Chapo -
Seen various versions of this cable used in the plastics factory where I used to work, for all sorts of equipment, such as conveyor belts, water heaters/chillers, dryers etc, also seen it on some of the outside lighting, they even used it for 3-phase extension leads, I've even got a length I brought home once, supplying an outdoor garden socket box, it's been there 15 years & the bits that are visible don't seem to have degraded, the rest is buried under paving slabs!
Thanks for another informative video JW
This was used a lot on mobile telecom sites. The message is getting through now that it's classified as a control cable and its use is a departure from BS7671. It's not being installed generally anymore but still remains installed on older sites. It was generally only used for internal sites.
"And then we have the usual asbestos or cocaine or whatever spilling out from inside..." Part of my job is building maintenance, and I'm in the US. As a result, very little of the information presented in your videos is of practical use to me. However, it's hilarious lines like that delivered in your deadpan, matter-of-fact manner, combined with my strong sense of curiosity and desire to know how things work even if I'll never work with it, that keeps me coming back and watching. Keep it up!
Used this cable a lot back in the day, offshore use between panels, but mostly the larger multicore like 19c, and for instrument signals, not mains AC. Cheap and cheerful cable.
That's not sy cable, It's called ships braided cable. Often used in atex areas. Is much more robust than sy.
I saw this type of cable not so long ago feeding column lights to a carpark for a communal block of flats ,the section i saw came out of the ground by a path where it was cemented over running along a wall then cleated but outer sheath coming off from uv exposure then carried through a pipe which goes through the wall under a driveway to the carpark and grass area the other side at a higher elevation.
Ive always thought of this cable pretty much as "electrical wire inside a hosepipe" as thats what it's always looked like to me. The hosepipe would probably be better protection though ;)
We have the very problem on our site at the moment. Air conditioning installations which haven't been in very long using this SY cable, the braid inside has gone rusty and the outer insulation is breaking down from the UV. The installation contractors should have to return back and replace with SWA at their cost but I doubt that will happen.
Not UV rated yet its amazing how this appears to nearly be the industry standard to connect an external AC condenser to the internal unit.
Was called simplex in my area
I have always assumed the braided covering is for EMC shielding purposes, when driving a motor from a VFD for example. One needs to use to the correct glands to bond the braid to earth.
LAPP Cables state in their SY cable data sheet: "The braid of galvanized steel-wires is an additional mechanical protection". They also state "If using outdoors, observe the indicated temperature range and use with UV
protection".
You are correct Greg. Primary to reduce the effects of Electromagnetic interference.
@@jurassicsparks5220 iirc Some VFD manufacturers say to earth the brading at one end for EMC shielding.
SY is not for screening if you need screened cable try CY or one of many multi core screened cables not screen should only be connected to ground ,0v or input at one end
Note power cables for inverters/or vfds ,the outer shielding braid should be connected to ground at both ends
@@rogergregory5981 Wow, how wrong can you be.
Copper against some high frequencies is ok, but medium frequencies such as 10s of kHz copper is pointless.
10s to 100khz this steel braiding is perfect, its literally in the description of EMC, Electro Magnetic..., tell me how magnetic is copper?
Medium to high range frequencies can have a tendency to introduce currents, so connecting both ends of the SY braid and using an internal earth can give rise to circulating ground currents. (you have just built a transformer)
Low frequency, you are probably ok to earth both ends, it also can be used as extra earthing to bring down the resistance of the fault current path.
Never ever leave it disconnected from earth, its an extraneous conductive part of the installation.
And no matter what you think, it does give some mechanical protection.
Not to be used outside in sunlight though.
the white powder is talc & the last time i came across this type of cable was in a cement works they are usually the cables that go between motors switches & fuses aswell as control boxes
Thanks for pointing this out..
SY flex (or CY and YY) does not comply for use in BS7671 at all. The ECA produce a leaflet about this. We recently had to rewire a petrol station that had been wired in SY just 12 months previously, but when we tested it we failed it and rewired in SWA. These cables are classed as for "control wiring" and do not have an appropriate BS number.
It's nuts how it's classed as "control wiring" but CEF sell it in sizes up to 35mm². What on earth needs 135A "control" current?
The amounts of that stuff I've used over the years. Mainly for control panel to moving machinery, or motor cables, the braiding is for emc purposes, and adds a bit of protection, but not much. OK in the right environment.
Your a legend, love your videos 👍🏻👍🏻🙏🏻
Thanks for this. Never personally seen it used outside (yet) but you pointed out some good tips such as no standards for it. Good to know. I have seen YY used on farm machinery (such as diet feeders) and I couldn't figure why the outer coating always cracked after a couple of years, now I know, not uv resistant!
There's some outside at my work lol.
The biggest problem I come across all the time with SY is- some bright sparks seem to think you don't need to ground the braid, I find it all the time just taped up, no excuses, there are several ways to connect, use the correct glands, or make up a drain/ground wire or clamp. can't believe how many times I have to explain the dangers of not doing this on a power cable!! I work in industrial automation.
It’s the details that matter JW and thanks to you for discussing them. Yes always obtain the manufacturers advice and technical sheets. That being said we do need manufacturers to improve the availability and comprehensive information nature of their technical sheets. Hopefully things will improve.
Trying to get hold of 70mm^2 120V black insulated twin flex. Any suggestions ;)
Fascinating information. I am not sure you do requests but if you are able to do a quick review of how to use armoured cable with IP67 junction boxes I would be obliged. For my use I find the trim and connection unsatisfactory and time consuming. I assume there is a tool or technique I am missing to make it both neater and quicker to work with.
SY is great for the right applications, i'm a retired maintenance engineer that's used it most of my working career, it's more flexible than SWA.
Even though it's technically not armored, the protection isn't insignificant. It's great for extension cables or long leads where idiots on the shop floor will repeatedly pinch it with a pallet truck. Never seen one get cut by hand tools by accident, the only time I've seen one shear is with a forklift ripping through it and taking a motor with it.
"The usual asbestos or cocaine." 😂😂🤣🤣
It's one kind of flex cable used here in Germany a lot. Mostly not shield and called ölflex manufacturered by Lapp.
Of course it is not for outdoor use, but to make industrial or commercial installations it is super!
Eg lighting in supermarkets, power supply for industrial machinery or for control circuits
Lapp say "If using outdoors, observe the indicated temperature range and use with UV protection".
On alot of construction sites that you are permitted to use special test equipment which is 220v mains operated you are only allowed to this sy flex extension leads for extra safety as opposed to standard flex extension leads . Thanks again John
You really think that
A: AC guys would be watching this and
B: Would be bothered it’s the wrong cable
Extensively used in factories for mobile appliances, pretty crap in food factories as any damage to the outer sheath results on rotten braid.
It's just chalk. Used to lubricate the cable during assembly. Also helps make it more flexible in use.
Dang it, I thought we had discovered a free source of cocaine :(
Its probably silicone powder nowadays.
Not worth a quick snort then? 👃
I have been in workshops where all the weding machines are connected up with that junk. The owners either think it is a must or the local HS have told them it is. The heavy rubber leads that the manufacturers send the machines out with lasts longer and stands up to things like fork lifts better.
Surely the outside steel can be used for cpc & protect cable for garden lights clipped surface or in containment like plastic kopex 🤔
Light bulb 😃
Asbestos or cocaine. Love it.
SY cable was designed for industry. For remote locating of instrument panels. Temperature gauges etc. The screen is a functional earth which helped precision. It is not designed as a circuit protective conductor. It is used extensively throughout the plastic industry. It is not designed as a flexible. It is usually mounted on a tray without the risk of "crosstalkk" through the screen it is also very tough because in industry there is always a risk of a heavy stacker truck reversing on to it!
How would you go about doing an electrical installation certificate, on double insulated fixed appliances such as a iskra 3 phase meter
I've seen this kind of shielded cable both in transparent and in normal grey variants. I've always wondered if the transparent sheathe makes any difference. Not electrically obviously, but there has to be some reason both exist, rhight? Is it just so you can see at a glance that it is shielded?
The grey shielded version is CY, the grey unshielded version is YY.
That looks a lot like a multi-core cable for machine tool signaling: hooking up control switches, limit switches, and safety interlocks back to the main controls. Igus makes a lot of cables similar in appearance.
That's mainly what it's intended for.
The ones from Igus are energy chain rated, usually thousands of bending operations, SY is for a few bends during installation, bending radius is often smaller than SWA.
A very informative video, who'd fancy getting a rollicking of Mr Ward...er', not me !!....lol.
Found automotive trailer cable being used in a refrigeration machine recently, original equipment by the manufacturer.
As long as the conductor will carry the current and the insulation cope with the voltage - who cares ?
@@millomweb Well not you apparently!
The cable is intended to connect machines or parts of machines. Maybe also to connect a sensor. But certainly only in the house or garage.
Can you do a video on IT earthing arrangement. No one seems to go in much depth
The cable loved by air conditioning companies 😡🤬. SY should only be used for short lengths from rotary isolators to moving machinery or equipment that suffers from vibration. Not recognised by BS7671.
Your right James doesn't carry the BS kitemark. But should have the European CE mark, if your going to buy SY cable make sure it's got the ce mark on it and buy the cable from a reputable electrical wholesaler.
@@sparkygazza Glad you said that, I have seen some from china and its a joke, massive gaps in the screening, and only a few strands.
The CE rated stuff is near 100% fill, no gaps and loads of strands.
My air con at my house (in the UK) is wired with much more robust looking heavy black sheathed cable. It isn't armoured, but then it doesn't need to be as it is not installed underground.
It's probably NYY cable.
@@robertbritton656 The covering feels rubbery. One of them is 3 core providing mains out to the compressor, the other is 4 core bringing mains back from the compressor to the indoor half of the mini split (within a foot of where the power came from in the first place but apparently the power goes to outside first and then back in) and the 4th core is the control link between the two or so the chap that installed it told me.
@@owensmith7530 That sound like H07 then.
Good morning I have an issue with a job I’m on where a electrician has used a single core SWA as live constructor and the armour as the neutral conductor from the main three false coming into the building to the fuse bored on three separate fuse boards. Is this dangerous. Thanks in advance.
I was told that SY does not provide EMC shielding, you need CY for that.
yes you are correct on this one, John is mistaken, the braiding on SY is for mechanical protection hence why its made of steel not copper. John is right that is definately is not armoured or suitable for outdoor usage though.
@@mawoodmain If the braid is for mechanical protection, there's no need to earth it then. If the braid is to form an earthed metallic covering as mentioned in regulation 522.6.204, then it needs to comply with BS 5467, BS 6724, BS 7846, BS 8436, or BS 60702-1. John says SY cable does not satisfy any of these standards so there's no point in earthing it. What sort of external influence is this steel braid particulary suitable for?
I wouldn't rely on the braid for a cpc, but I would ensure it is bonded to earth just as I would the armour of an swa
I think this problem is down to wholesalers and their stocking/supply. . There is only limited choices when ordering from wholesalers but a wealth of options on the market. .
I'm rather relieved tat I seem to have used SY correctly in my fixed instalations in my workshops particularly vfd driven three phase equipment like my lathe. I have to admit I never realised the powder was cocaine. I should have collected it up and sold it to offset the cost of the instalations 😁
"three phase equipment like my lathe"
You show me yours.......
Used a lot in food factories great for control panels very versatile easier to manipulate than armoured, nothing wrong with it used in the right environment, swa companies hate it.
What is it that makes SY more suitable that standard 6242Y twin & earth?
@@westinthewest Used extensively on factory floors, for the interconnection between the switchgear, and the machine. Think of it as a braided flex, rather than for static installations.
Yeah this stuff is in most factories I’ve been in. Never seen anyone use a proper gland for it though
@@uhhhhh262 that's down to the individual, up to them to terminate it correctly.
@@sparkygazza I suppose?
AC folk likely to be up in arms about this revelation.
Asbestos or cocaine…😂😂😂😂
I was honesty going to put up a sarky comment about JW having a new signature start to his talk with a joke…but even better!
Great video John, one thing that has always puzzled me is, if the osg advises us not to use SY cable, then why is it even stocked by wholesalers in the UK? Also why is this crap cable included as part of the AM2 assessment? 🤷♂️
Couldn't agree more. Iv asked those questions many times
The cable is suitable in some applications. This is why it is available.
@@BULLEAD does it have a bs number? What types of applications?
@@gbelectricks Taken from Eland cables website statement: Statement on the use of SY, CY and YY cables in the UK
SY, CY and YY cables are flexible control cables, designed for measurement and control in equipment such as assembly and production lines. They have finely stranded, flexible Class 5 copper conductors, and the SY and CY variants have a steel or copper braid layer. These cables are widely used in the UK and Europe yet are not manufactured to a designated standard - anyone claiming conformance to BS EN 50525-2-11 is doing so incorrectly as the insulation thickness doesn’t meet the minimum requirements and this standard does not include allowance for a steel or copper braid.
Confusion has arisen in the market around the applications these control cables can be used for. It has been suggested that these cables are not ‘fit-for-purpose’ without defining the ‘purpose’. For the avoidance of doubt, SY, CY & YY cables are compliant when used appropriately in UK applications for control functions under BS EN 60204.
@@BULLEAD so basically they are shit under heavy load but ok for signalling🥴 personally, I’d be inclined to listen to the osg, and I’d rather steer clear of the stuff 🤷♂️
As people have said, it's common and appropriate use is in the food industry, basically it's a flex with a bit of screening and a bit more mechanical protection. Eland cables have their own testing laboratory and test SY to the German standard VDE0250, which I would think is enough to make it harmonized and compliant. I wouldn't specify it for outdoor use, but look at all the 6242Y cables installed in housing for external lighting and power. It's not UV rated either. I think H07RN-F is great cable, but when you look back over time TRS just crumbled away. HiTuf, H07RN-F and SWA are all in the same price range, we have lot's of choice.
VDE standards are for Germany only, they are not harmonised or of any real use outside of Germany.
VDE0250 is a whole suite of individual standards covering a wide variety of different cables, so 'VDE0250' on it's own doesn't mean anything.
www.vde-verlag.de/quicksearch/?searchterm=0250
Gets used a lot for connecting UPS to commando sockets.
The powder used in cables to stop the jacket sticking to the conductor insulation is usually talc.
Called ölflex here in Sweden or translated beer flex.
What do you think to split concentric cable for use outdoors?
Any videos on this cable?
It could be used outside, but would require mechanical protection in many situations and can't be used underground either. It's usually a poor choice, much better alternatives exist.
Thanks. It was used in the past at my house to power outdoor lights, buried underground.. I believe this was ok in the 16th edition regulations?
What are your thoughts on Hi Tuff for outside use 🤔
Can be used, provide it's not somewhere that requires mechanical protection.
Ahh... just bought some of this to use in the garden for LED lighting in the flowerbeds... largely because the foxes (and probably rats) keep chewing through other 'tuf' flex that I've used and SWA feels like overkill. I thought the braided shielding might help stop them getting through it... but pointless if it can't take the sun of a south facing garden or will corrode... dammit...!!
I always imagined the white stuff was cornflour...I've never tasted it mind you...
We are forced to use a lot of this stuff, in multicore 16mm, and ive never figured out what the advantage is. The glands are a pita to fit compared to swa so the only benefit seems to be flexibility.
Why don't designers go for H07 rubber cable if they want flexibility? Even standard PVC flex would be more pliable and resistant to vibration as it doesn't have the pointless braided covering.
What glands are those that you were using with the SY?
Used by every HVAC engineer I’ve ever met.
I think you'll find it was a case of... be a HVAC 'engineer' (if you can honestly use that description alongside HVAC!) ... or flip burgers when they left college?[Though flipping burgers does require a bit of skill] 😂
@@Sparks1Plumbers0HVAC technician.
Let's get the terminology right..They are not engineers.
1:55 John, I think it's powdered uranium.
I can honestly say the only time I ever came across this in the world was my AM2. Never come across it on motors, Air Con or anything like that be it domestic, commercial or factories. Never deemed appropriate for the situations so never installed it either.
When used with 230/415v AC it is IMPORTANT to earth the screen otherwise the capacitive linkage will give a shock when touched.
Unless earthed the 'sceening' is in- effective.
Used in the correct application this cable is fine.
Is the insulation rated for 415 ?
@@millomweb yes
You should work for radio 4 .
Yes we know we also went to collage !
Finally, a video on SY hate!
Yessssssssss!
People who install Air Con/ Air Conditioner always see sys cable and have see been used to pull power in one place to another
I appreciate what your saying but how would you terminate swa into a commando socket?
For a fixed socket on a wall, a suitable SWA gland and a suitable size hole in the enclosure.
If you mean a trailing socket, SWA is entirely inappropriate for that use, HO7 flex would be a more usual choice.
@@jwflame OK so H07 for outdoor use then over the SY cable to a 32a command outlet
I love the distain in John's voice when he's talking this crap. I share his loathing!
I wondered what the police did with all that coke that had been sized from the crims.
I've seen SY used by cowboys in peoples gardens usually by somebody who has worked in factory.
See this used all the time outside on aircon units along with fp200, aircon fitters should know better sy should be left for use on control panels and fp200 for fire alarms and emergency lighting.
It feels to me that there is a missing middle ground between tough rubber flex and SWA. People try and use SY to cover that middle ground but as you say it's not really suitable.
NYY-J can be a good option
@@alexacb63 NYY-J is solid core, so not a flex cable.
What kind of gland would you use with this cable?
An SY gland, designed specifically for use with SY cable.
@@jwflame thanks. I've also seen this used for AC a few times without understanding the reason.
You can use some swa glands. Brands like CMP and the Hawke universal are often used in atex environments where braided cable is the norm.
Wasn't this called metalfllex one time
Does anyone want to buy a reel of SY cable....?
Hello Jhon
See contractors buying this stuff all the time, as you say for some reason Aircon people love it, personally rather use normal flex.
I absolutely hate the stuff right from the start! I’m for ever picking it up on EICRs but no one seems to give a crap that it hasn’t been installed it correctly. From AC installers to 3phase extension leads. Forever explaining why not to use it till red in the face. Met with why do they sell it then? 🤬🤬
The hot tub company I used specifically asked for SY, I wanted armour they wouldn't install unless SY :(
They had probably tried SWA once and hated it!
John ward you are my idol
They should just scrap the SY name and class it as CY cable, like you said it is more of a screened cable. I really dislike this cable, it is never terminated correctly. The company I work for has banded us from using it at all.
Bit of Hosepipe,Be rate.
Can't have cocaine or asbestos without Cool wHip
Great for indoor use where the cable will be seen. Apart from that that it. Should never be sold for outdoor use.
Asbestos????
What is a SY?
Steel & PVC. Also CY which is Copper and PVC, and YY which is all PVC.
The AC guys live on this stuff, always found NYY J much better for it
asbestos or cocaine... haha Legend
YAWN 🥱
Bet you have the police looking at all cables suspiciously now after that cocaine comment.
Just seen a factory completely wired in sy such a joke!
Not just for machine flex but as building wiring
I think in most cases rubber H07RN-F cable should be used instead of this SY crap, ive never been a fan of this cable , Having no British standard is always a bit iffy . H07 has a BS standard. And in the places that need it use SWA. Another possible option is doncaster cables TUF sheath, its just armored cable without the steel.
I'm a fan of H07RN-F and H05RN-F too. The sheath is neoprene, which if it's good enough for diver's suits, should be good enough for rainwater in a garden.
n.b. Doncaster Tuff Sheath doesn't technically conform to a BS standard, as it's only manufactured "generally" to the standard, which the IET doesn't recognise.
There's an awful lot of so called electricians that don't k ow about the special glands for this stuff.
Wholesalers, too, in my experience. At a minimum they don't bother to stock them, though sell plenty of the cable...
Because this cable had no British standard. And shouldn't even be sold here.
@@arcadia1701e What is cable type in British standard for cabling from VFD to motor?
@@peto22 wouldn't rubber h07rn-f cable be what you are after ? Super durable, available in many core configs and DO have a BS rating.
@@arcadia1701e I was thinking EMC shielding, h07rn-f has no EMC shield witch is requirement in EU with VFD:s. I was thinking that BS standard must have some altenative to CY?
Ironically you might not be far off with the asbestos comment. If it's talc, it could well contain asbestos.
Should be talc, but I gather asbestos can be a contaminant.
Worst offenders for using this stuff are aircon installers and telecoms companies. I've lost count the amount of times I've had to replace this stuff.
I like working with it but its completely unsuitable for the applications most people tend to use it for. People need to check the BS compatibility and also the insulation voltage rating for it.
Aircon installers only use this cable.
😬🤣👌
So you are telling me I should not of used this for a EV charging point.
Yep
Yes
@@martinwinfield2935 I have changed it now to 3 lots of 1.5mm together in to a 4 way wago connector. It's only get a little bit hot and smoky so I thought a small fan in the box.
If you think that's garbage because it's falling to bits, disintegrating and rusty.
Try this one: ruclips.net/video/lm-wRotMWdw/видео.html
Cocaine cable John is this sold by length or weight 🤪