This is a very interesting discussion. I hear you getting into things I’ve thought about myself. W the meta shift. In one sense, it’s perception. It was the perception that shifted the meta. But I think it’s not now. I think the meta was bound to shift around a lot, corrections and over corrections and back and fourth but it was always likely we would arrive at something approximating a stable equilibrium. Maybe this is that. This seems to be a place it doesn’t make much sense to shift in response to. In poker we have GTO, and there is an exploitative approach to play against every player who isn’t playing near “GTO” or “Nash Equilibrium”. We bet and raise less and call more against a maniac and against a calling station we stop bluffing and value bet thinner, etc. When players reach a stable equilibrium w each other there is no longer any incentive to shift strategies. Nothing to exploit. Now we can’t be and never will be exactly there but wr might be close enough to a stable equilibrium that there are no huge shifts that will create big edges. And if that’s the case then you might say “this is what cedh looks like” and it kinda makes sense to ask “why didn’t we do this last year?” But we didn’t know this last year. We still had to turbo and stax around at the edges to find out they were edges🤷♂️ Namaste homies 🖖 Great talk
The thing that changed is new players. Threat assessment and mulligans are easily the most difficult part of cEDH. It much easier to play a Rhystic Study then to sniff out counter magic for your adnaus then find a winning line. When u play more and more this pivot style becomes more natural. But it takes time. Imagine a scenario that u give a new player seat 3 ad naus, 5 treasures and 30 life. There playing a generic BlueFarm. That new player is more likely to fail that naus and kill themselves then the are to win. Now give that player the One Ring in the same turn. Cast the Ring. Leave a treasure. Draw a card. Pass. Then just wait. Counter threats on the stack. Wait More. Cast a tutor. Wait more. Draw more.
It is interesting how when playing a “value ad nauseam” is basically just running a worse necropotence. If you do not need to go fast, might as well run the harder to interact with enchantment.
I've been saying since the beginning of 23, adnause it is such a 2020 card. Especially in a midrange creature meta. Adnause is just 😢too often.😂 Yea, after flash/hulk, people saw cedh as this extreme fast games. So naturally they looked to the next fastest thing , oracle. As that is what cedh was about. With times more and more different cards were printed, like Hoarding brood lord people wanted to try out... with a few 8 drops , plus a few more 4 drop engines. Yea nause gets worse. And once you realize you can run decks without nause and still with creatures.
As far as the hypothetical discussion of banning Rhytic/mystic vs. Dockside. A good point of reference might be the data referenced to in the episode that had a spotlight on the cards that lead most to wins. If rhytic and mystic lead to the most wins then it would be more ban worthy than dockside right?
Card draw is stronger than mana. Rhystic is stronger than dockside. Dockside makes mana but you have to have something to do with it. Rhystic gets you everything you need.
I feel like if your dropping the ad naus then u should be playing peer especially if your argument is I want to run more 4 drops and don't want to telegraph
Talion is better then rhystic longer the games goes. And much better then one ring. As it draws more cards early game where one ring draws just a few. So you can create an overwelming board. Also in the past weeks there were numerous times I had choice one ring or talion... every time talion was cast, and didn't even bother casting the ring in thoes games.
Fish draws have diminishing returns. Yes., of course. There are bottle necks in the game that limit your efficiency. That’s why we have terms like mana screw or flood or, hell, efficiency. Once someone has 10 cards in hand mana is their bottleneck. The same way we all know if Tivit has a pile of clues you just give him more clues. I disagree w so much of what he says, guys, but this is not his opinion it is an actual fact and what there is to discuss is only the degree. Fish draws do have diminishing returns and is is some amount less valuable to feed the 11th than the 3rd
Mana has diminishing returns too. There is often a fairly negligible difference between a Dockside making eight treasures versus making fifteen, for instance. Meanwhile the difference between holding eight cards vs fifteen is massive. And mana comes from cards. I think cards will always be a bigger bottleneck. A huge Dockside does nothing without a payoff.
you guys do you, But if you are looking for feed back. I feel there was a LOT of time spent on talking about what one of you not saying and pressing minor points about definition and ranking rather than keeping the focus of your comments on the effect the subject card on a given deck/meta/format. And the chatting about what your trying to say and what "your not saying isn't good" is not as interesting for the viewer.
Kuma really needs to drop that BF being a turbo deck take…smh.
he's addicted to having bad opinions.
This is a very interesting discussion. I hear you getting into things I’ve thought about myself. W the meta shift. In one sense, it’s perception. It was the perception that shifted the meta. But I think it’s not now. I think the meta was bound to shift around a lot, corrections and over corrections and back and fourth but it was always likely we would arrive at something approximating a stable equilibrium. Maybe this is that. This seems to be a place it doesn’t make much sense to shift in response to.
In poker we have GTO, and there is an exploitative approach to play against every player who isn’t playing near “GTO” or “Nash Equilibrium”. We bet and raise less and call more against a maniac and against a calling station we stop bluffing and value bet thinner, etc. When players reach a stable equilibrium w each other there is no longer any incentive to shift strategies. Nothing to exploit. Now we can’t be and never will be exactly there but wr might be close enough to a stable equilibrium that there are no huge shifts that will create big edges. And if that’s the case then you might say “this is what cedh looks like” and it kinda makes sense to ask “why didn’t we do this last year?” But we didn’t know this last year. We still had to turbo and stax around at the edges to find out they were edges🤷♂️
Namaste homies 🖖
Great talk
The thing that changed is new players. Threat assessment and mulligans are easily the most difficult part of cEDH.
It much easier to play a Rhystic Study then to sniff out counter magic for your adnaus then find a winning line. When u play more and more this pivot style becomes more natural. But it takes time.
Imagine a scenario that u give a new player seat 3 ad naus, 5 treasures and 30 life. There playing a generic BlueFarm. That new player is more likely to fail that naus and kill themselves then the are to win.
Now give that player the One Ring in the same turn. Cast the Ring. Leave a treasure. Draw a card. Pass. Then just wait. Counter threats on the stack. Wait More. Cast a tutor. Wait more. Draw more.
Hey I was wondering what is the song in the background I love it
Thank you. it was actually made by our sound engineer! He goes by fcunkle on discord.
With the addition of borne
I’m still all in on nas baby.
(I haven’t listened yet, so let’s hear whatcha have to say).
It is interesting how when playing a “value ad nauseam” is basically just running a worse necropotence. If you do not need to go fast, might as well run the harder to interact with enchantment.
soon it will be time for gitrog to return
I've been saying since the beginning of 23, adnause it is such a 2020 card.
Especially in a midrange creature meta. Adnause is just 😢too often.😂
Yea, after flash/hulk, people saw cedh as this extreme fast games. So naturally they looked to the next fastest thing , oracle. As that is what cedh was about. With times more and more different cards were printed, like Hoarding brood lord people wanted to try out... with a few 8 drops , plus a few more 4 drop engines. Yea nause gets worse. And once you realize you can run decks without nause and still with creatures.
Omg the point about turbo Rocco! Lol. I think I agreed w you twice in one show🤘
As far as the hypothetical discussion of banning Rhytic/mystic vs. Dockside. A good point of reference might be the data referenced to in the episode that had a spotlight on the cards that lead most to wins. If rhytic and mystic lead to the most wins then it would be more ban worthy than dockside right?
Card draw is stronger than mana. Rhystic is stronger than dockside. Dockside makes mana but you have to have something to do with it. Rhystic gets you everything you need.
We can ban dockside, rhystic, and mystic, because theyre all equally egregious. Yay! Compromise!
I feel like if your dropping the ad naus then u should be playing peer especially if your argument is I want to run more 4 drops and don't want to telegraph
Talion is better then rhystic longer the games goes. And much better then one ring. As it draws more cards early game where one ring draws just a few. So you can create an overwelming board.
Also in the past weeks there were numerous times I had choice one ring or talion... every time talion was cast, and didn't even bother casting the ring in thoes games.
Fish draws have diminishing returns. Yes., of course. There are bottle necks in the game that limit your efficiency. That’s why we have terms like mana screw or flood or, hell, efficiency. Once someone has 10 cards in hand mana is their bottleneck. The same way we all know if Tivit has a pile of clues you just give him more clues.
I disagree w so much of what he says, guys, but this is not his opinion it is an actual fact and what there is to discuss is only the degree.
Fish draws do have diminishing returns and is is some amount less valuable to feed the 11th than the 3rd
Mana has diminishing returns too. There is often a fairly negligible difference between a Dockside making eight treasures versus making fifteen, for instance. Meanwhile the difference between holding eight cards vs fifteen is massive. And mana comes from cards. I think cards will always be a bigger bottleneck. A huge Dockside does nothing without a payoff.
Lets be real no one runs natures claim cuz of boseiju
Dockside def needs to be checked its a great card but ive witnessed pods where rhystic did nothing in comparsion to dockside.. it warps the format
you guys do you, But if you are looking for feed back. I feel there was a LOT of time spent on talking about what one of you not saying and pressing minor points about definition and ranking rather than keeping the focus of your comments on the effect the subject card on a given deck/meta/format. And the chatting about what your trying to say and what "your not saying isn't good" is not as interesting for the viewer.