Lessons in Lojban I : The Bridi Proposition
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- update - I have begun to slowly author a guide to Lojban which attempts to be approachable in the kind of way I had in mind for this series: mw.lojban.org/...
Come visit the lojban community at large on the Freenode IRC network: webchat.freenod... in the #lojban and #ckule channels (I am ldlework!)
None of the Lojban lessons on RUclips are uploaded consistently... You can find plenty of Lojban lesson 1 but never lesson 2.
+Zilong Lee (EvilPlanet) Hi I am sorry for dissapointing. However I have recently continued the series in text form where I hope to have maintained the approachable style: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
Please come visit the community on IRC :)
Sad
too bad you didn't continue the series, the pilot was great :)
+Sara E. Foster Sorry about that! I have continued the series in text form where I have tried to maintain the approachability: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
Make sure to visit the IRC if your interest is sparked again!
I've tried learning lojban off and on for several years; the available material was very dry or confusing. This is the *best* introduction to lojban I have ever seen and I wish you had continued this series. Perhaps if you received donations to offset the apparently tedious and time-consuming task of making these instructional videos? I'd be willing. Anyone else? This video alone has renewed my desire to revisit lojban.
I would happy to donate as well.
+Shawn Pennington Hi thanks for the words and sorry for the late reply. I encourage you to check out a new guide I'm authoring to see if it can reinvigorate you once more: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
And please come to the IRC and chat with the community!
Wow I almost forgot about lojban and this post! Thanks for the response Sir and I shall check out the links you graciously provided :)
@@shawnpennington6140 you still alive bro? It's been 7 years.
@@papaxsmurf7678 Yes I am. Wow -- 7 years. I keep meaning to get back to Lojban but I never found any other tutorials as good as this. And life happened: got married and moved and blah blah blah. Wouldn't mind jumping back in if this series ever gets revived. I think the main barrier to people picking up Lojban is the lack of intelligible, concise, precise, and accessible training materials.
It's almost like one constructs "parse trees" using lo and ku, and nest statements arbitrarily deep, or something.
I have no idea what I'm talking about.
You're pretty much right. lo and ku, (and other similar constructs) do indeed create new terms in the tree which can hold an entire subtree, which can also hold subtrees, and so on. Most human languages support this kind of nesting like "Did you know that I am hungry" where "I am hungry" is a totally legit sentence on it's own. Lojban's simple grammar that works the same way regardless of what you're talking about makes it very obvious though.
Lol this is honestly just a long explanation for saying: SVO, no particles or adpositions, you can tell what each noun means based on the context from the verb, and no inflection
T Chop I mean, you're not wrong. :)
easier to explain to a layman though
@T Chop, it appears that way on the surface, but the fundamentals are substantially different from the subject/verb/object-based syntaxes that natural languages typically use - predicates are not exclusively verbs; for example, there is no predicate for "is", so that if you want to use an adjective or noun, you have to use a predicate with that meaning. For example, to describe something as red ("this is red"), you have to use the predicate for redness ("xunre"), then you can say "ti xunre". Notice that there is no "verb" in this sentence. Rather, the verb "is" of English is baked into the definition of "xunre". In this way, most prepositions and basic verbs are baked into the definitions of selbri.
However, if a selbri doesn't have a particular preposition baked into it, you can usually use a short form of the gismu (root word) that has it. For example, "klama" is [x1 goes to x2 ...], "nenri" is [x1 is inside x2], and "zarci" is [x1 is a store ...], so I can say "mi klama lo zarci" ("I go to the store"), or if I want to be more specific and say that the store is inside a mall, I can say that "lo zarci" is related to the predicate "nenri", either with a subordinate bridi ("mi klama lo zarci poi nenri lo zairdijgunma", where "lo zairdijgunma" means "the mall" - this is akin to an English subordinate clause, e.g. "I go to the store, which is inside the mall"), or by using a short form of "nenri" called a modal sumti (namely "ne'i", i.e. "mi klama lo zarci ne'i lo zairdijgunma", which reads more like "I go to the store in the mall").
As for order, the norm for Lojban resembles SVO, but SOV is used easily enough, too, since Lojban permits the selbri to appear anywhere after x1, e.g. "I eat that" could be said as "mi citka ta" or "mi ta citka", the latter resembling SOV. There are also {se, te, ve, xe} for swapping x2-x5 with x1, e.g. "ta se citka mi" has the same meaning as the previous two phrases. This resembles OVS, but reads more like the English passive voice ("that is eaten by me") than it does pure OVS. To better achieve an OVS effect in such cases, you can use the rafsi/lujvo system to compound "se citka" into a single word, "selcti", whence we can say "ta selcti mi". From here, OSV can be achieved as "ta mi selcti". VSO and VOS can be achieved with the use of {fa, fe, fi, fo fu}, which skip to the corresponding place x1-x5, or by using {se, te, ve, xe} and not specifying the modified x1 place, e.g. VSO can be achieved as "citka fa mi ta"; and VOS as "selcti fa ta mi", or "te citka ta mi" which can be contracted to "tercti ta mi".
Lojban is very flexible!
God dammit I busted out laughing because I am an idiot child. Every time someone says Firmly Grasp, EVERY TIME, I think of that stupid Spongebob joke. It has been y e a r s since I saw that episode. Why does it haunt me with immature giggles to this day
John Rice *muffled grunts of pain*
Mi peisku ti vidni xamgu.
I think this video is good.
Right?
What if I want to say "I sell this for 5 dollars"? In the absence of an indirect object (x3), the price would fall into the x3 slot and therefore the proposition would mean "I sell this to [a buyer with the weird name of] 5 dollars"... (One solution would be to have some indefinite pronoun to fill the x3 slot, but that's a bit cumbersome.) The same problem arises with tavla: if I want to say "You speak to us in Lojban", the x3 slot is left unoccupied (I haven't specified what you are speaking to us about), so "English" falls into the x3 slot, and the proposition means: "You speak to us about English".
iirc correctly there's a filler pronoun zo'e, and there are also the prepositions fa fe fi fo fu which fill the x1 x2 x3 x4 and x4 positions respectively. Hope this helps
could you say something like
"vecnu (currency)"
to describe selling an a certain price, without describing from who, to whom, or what item(s)?
also, what about something like "lo vecnu ku vecnu (item one) (item two) (buyer)"
would you link the two items being sold into one argument through the use of one of lojban's word modifiers? (eg: lo (selbri) ku, except something like lo vecnu ku vecnu (cheese and fireworks) lo pendo ku?)
sorry if this is a swam of questions, I'm really interested in Lojban.
also, what if you want to describe not the seller as an individual, but the selling, or use the idea of selling as a sumpti, etc?
+Ja-Shwa Cardell I highly recommend my tutorial that you can find here: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
Very slow and hard to desire to follow, but informative nonetheless. Thank you, good sir.
Me and my nerd friend will ise this to tapk in school
every single verb has its own grammar, DAMN.
"I thank you" Try to reverse the order of the arguments in this english sentence without removing or adding anything. Woah every english verb has its own grammar?! No. Predicates relate things to each other. Which thing plays each role in that relationship is important and not-arbitrary. This is true of every human language.
I think what they were referring to (or at least the part that has me a bit scared), is the fact that knowing the standard form for a verb includes knowing in what order prepositions and the like follow it. A lot of it is straightforward, but words like klama have seemingly arbitrary xN positions for various things. (i.e. why would the origin x3 come before the route x4?) It's extremely likely that there's a way to circumvent this already built into the language, or even that the order doesn't matter entirely and you can pick out what's meant to happen based on context, but I for one am not thrilled at memorizing every verb's standard form.
But its easy
Words seem to carry a lot of cultural and economic assumption within their meaning, I'm not sure how much use that is as a philosophical language.
Wittgenstein would probably have a serious hard-on for it, either way
Can you give a few examples?
You could put Lojban on Duolingo?
I watched this a month ago and thought it was awesome. I tried to play with it and my baby caught on! :) :) but there isn't much else out there for concise and clear... THIS video helped so much. PLEASE I'm BEGGING you can you make a few more? O.O Even teaching a word a day would make a world of difference for me.. The work you put into this could help many people, including my child^^
+lindsey miller Hi, thanks for the words and sorry for a late response. I encourage you to checkout my new guide which I have tried to make as approachable as the video. mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
Please come to the IRC and chat with the community :)
Wait, your baby speaks Lojban? I think that's a first.
Keep it up!
is there a way to say the price without talking about the buyer
*I have just one question, is there anyway to say the x3, x4 or x5 without having to say the x2, x3, and/or x4 first?*
+Mishtle Tsatsomoka Yes, you can with a variety of methods. First, you can use {zo'e} to fill the place without specifying with what. Secondly, you can use the FA family of particles to "absolutely address" what sumti place you are about to fill. They are, {fa}, {fe}, {fi}, {fo} and {fu} for x1 - x5 respectively. The grammar is simple: FA SUMTI => SUMTI'. For example: {mi dunda fi do} to skip x2 and specify x3 directly.
For more information, I have begun authoring a guide to Lojban which I have tried to make approachable like the video. Here is the relevant section of FA: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda#FA_Labels
+Dustin Lacewell ohh, thank you for answering, and something alse… uhmm, I just noticed that this video is like 3 years old I was looking for the next video lesson, aren't you going to upload any more lessons? ттдтт
As I've explained in other comments, video production is way too intensive. I've continued the series in prose form that you can find in the link in my previous reply to you.
Dustin Lacewell
Uhmmmm
¿Could I continue with the video series by using your prose and putting links and credits in description and at the beggining of video?
*UwUr ~
I think you're probably underestimating the task but if you think you have the patience and you have a strong enough grasp of Lojban to add value with your commentary, go right ahead!
I don't see much point in simply making a video version of la karda though.
Looking forward to Lesson 2. :D
+Heinrich Tsanov (靳禮赫) Hello, I have continued the series in text form where I have tried to maintain the approachability and clear explanation: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
Come visit the IRC if you are once again inspired!
+Darkwisp Check out my new lesson if you think you might still be interested in Lojban: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda
And visit the IRC too!
.i mi nelci ti
(Subject) gives (Object) to (Receiver) -- Ooook. (Subject) sells (Object) to (Receiver) --- Aha, ok. (Subject) talks to (Receiver) about (Object) --- whaaat? You call it logic?
...what
...what
It is more like "(Subject) talks to (Object)" with additional arguments for topic.
@@c4llv07e Is there any, uhm, *complete* course for the language, starting from the very beginning and up to the ability to speak in the language? Is there any valuable information written in the language, any news, any original books?
@@SergeRibalchenko I can't say for sure, I'm learning it right now. But I can recommend the "waves of lojban" - some say it's a good place to start.
10:46 I came here for a logical language, not subjectivity.
Is there a term for simply 'this thing' regardless of subjective distance? Or even what about objective distance? Are there terms for 'the thing within 5 meters of me/you/them' or 'the thing outside 5km of me/you/them'
This is beautiful.
+Emergency Temporal Shift can you speak esperanto?
+Фауст Мефистофелес Not yet, I wanted to work on Lojban first.
Emergency Temporal Shift i would recommend to begin with esperanto.
+Фауст Мефистофелес Lojban is a logic based language, which I find interesting.
Emergency Temporal Shift I know this comment is 3 years old, but honestly, Esperanto is much better to learn first. Learning Lojban doesn't feel like learning a language. It feels more like learning to code.
Chrystal clear! Can't wait part 2! :)
i've seen in what i assume is official guide selbri being converted to sumti with "le" instead of "lo" and "ku", for example "le ctuca" instead of "lo ctuca ku" (the teacher), so are they both correct or which one of them is?
Have you read the section about {le}, {lo}, {la}, etc yet? If not, doing so will answer your question.
*points gun menacingly* make a lesson II
fascinating constructed language
insanely helpful thank you keep it up!
Hey thanks, but producing this was an incredible chore! Not likely :)
darn! well where did you learn what you learned? if you could point me to a website that you like that'd awesome!
+Dustin Lacewell I'm sorry to hear that, since this was an incredible lesson. As so many others have said, if you are unable to continue the series any recommendations for a good place to learn is appreciated. Your presentation was precise, concise, and many other -ise words. And you actually made me want to learn lojban.
I have distilled much of my lesson material here: mw.lojban.org/papri/la_karda and is what I recommend to new learners to get an impression of the language. Once you want to really dig in, mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban#Learning_Lojban is a good resource.
But hands down, the best place to learn is to come to the Freenode IRC network and join the #lojban channel. I am ldlework there. If you find me, I'm usually available for tutoring.
Excellent video! Good pacing and content. When is lesson 2 coming out?
You are a good teacher 😊
Muy buena lección. Espero la segunda. Muchas gracias.
Ha anunciado que probablemente no va a hacer un segundo. Siento decirte. :(
Great job! I can't wait for lesson II :)
.i'esai. For the last bit, it might be worth annotating words with gloss words, like “talk”, “give”, “friend” &c. pei
do ba finti xu lu pagbu re li'u
Are you going to make part two?
Nope, but I have made a guide with the same sensibilities, ldlework.com/lojban/la-karda/
.ui
ha
lo'ai lu pagbu re li'u sa'ai le remoi pagbu le'ai
the word is sumti not samti
Why are selbri, pre-existing, defined sentence structures, necessary for Lojban communication? Is there a reason that Lojban rejects case endings or prepositions, that is, syntactic markers that tell you the relationships between "objects" (= subjects and objects) in a sentence? How many selbri are there? It seems that there would need to be an almost unlimited number to cover all possible relations among things, instead of allowing people to directly express the relationships they intend to describe. Or, put differently and perhaps better: why are there "selbri" and not simply "verbs"?
You should try to conceptualize both verbs and selbri as ways of working with what are really predicates. Consider the following, English, non-lojban sentence: "I gave you this". Does "gave" not have an intrinsic ordering? Try to rearrange the nouns, or predicate arguments, without adding or removing words. Predicates represent a relationship among arguments. Each argument in the relationship plays a specific role in that relationship. There must be some way for a listener to understand which role in the predicate relationship each noun is playing, to understand what the speaker means.
Lojban selbri have default ordering, but just like in English and many other languages, you can add special modifier words to use different orderings. The idea that you need an infinite number of predicates to represent all possible relationships is only true if /all you have/ is basic predicates to work with. But again, like English and many other languages, there are additional features that allow complex ideas to be expressed, such as prepositions, descriptions and so on. And of course, there are many many more English verbs than there are Lojban selbri words.
But the overall point is, verbs and selbri, and the expressivity of English and Lojban is not as different as it first appears.
Thank you for your reply. If verbal concepts (especially in English, where word order is much more fixed than in inflected languages like Latin) imply a specific ordering, then, again, why is there a need for defined "selbri"? Let the verbal concept do its work. It just seems like an unnecessary semantic layer to establish.
its good but too complex my idea is to correct english
All grammar is complicated if you don’t learn it by just, like, trial and error and being immersed in it
Source: I’ve been learning Romanian for a bit more than 2 months :)
When the speaker says "claim", a more correct word would be "assertion". I think JCB was right in saying that "claim" should only be used for when the speaker is saying something belongs to the speaker. "Judy claimed her gloves from the lost-and-found." "Johannes claimed to have attended Georgia Tech."
as per google "define:claim" - verb 1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
"he claimed that he came from a wealthy, educated family"
I was never interested in the convoluted culture of positivism that gave birth to Lojban even if I'm grateful that it did.
The usage Google refers to has only been attested since 1864.
I use a lot of words newer than that so seems fine. Thanks though!
So you can make a noun out of x1, but how do you make a noun out of x2. I.e.: how do you say "the buyer"
Great question. Instead of making additional videos in this series I wrote the following guide. Here is the section on the SE family, which rearranges the places of a verb, so that lo can steal the new x1: ldlework.com/projects/cards/la-karda/#rearranging-verbs
i really don't understand why you don't use tags for single selbri instead of every sumpti. and do you really need closing tag?
+Фауст Мефистофелес Sorry for the late reply. I don't think I understand your first question. As for your second, it is my experience in trying various strategies out on new learners that by teaching terminators from the start it is *far easier* to later explain the cases where elision is allowed if the student has a strong foundation in where they should go.
i've learned esperanto already.
Cool, congrats!
what's better/easier/has wider community Esperanto or Lojban?
esperanto is easier and more popular.
seems like it would be impossible to describe abstract and complex relations with this, especially if newly imagined/discovered because there would be no sumti for them that the creators of the language would have thought up. your thoughts are literally limited by what is already known. this does not allow for description. in english you could get around this by slightly mis-using verbs and describing complex relations.
how would you say that x1 jumped on x2 and x3 began to wobble and ripple tearing it into x4 which flew into the sun. surely there's no sumti for jumping wobble and ripple then tearing and flying. it seems limiting to me that every relation requires an entirely new word to be memorised. in english you have verbs that can be related in whatever way you want, in this shit language even if a verb comes up in some sumti, if the relation is different, you need a whole ass new word, and there is like a virtually infinite number of relations that i could come up with in english, but this shit requires an entirely new word for each, so how would that ever fucking work. and how would you describe NEW abstract relations that you have found in mathematics, surely the creators of this language could not have had the insight to describe these relations because they did not make the same mathematical discovery as you did. in conclusion this language gives no freedom and limits development. it's logical and non-ambiguous but not without compromising the practical end of logic. what an ironic joke of a language. it simply falls under the theme of intelligent which is why these lows leach onto it, but it's fucking dumb.