The Alan Moore & Grant Morrison Feud: An Examination
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2023
- A look at the the allegedly long lasting, ongoing feud between the two popular comic book creators, Alan Moore and Grant Morrison. Links to all relevant material to follow below.
Please subscribe to be notified of future updates!
SUPPORT OVERLORD COMICS:
Join this channel to get early, ad free access to videos and other perks.
bit.ly/SupportOverlord
OVERLORD COMICS ON TWITTER:
bit.ly/OverlordComics
CONTACT:
overlordcomics@gmail.com
BACKGROUND MUSIC:
We Always Thought the Future Would Be Kind of Fun by Chris Zabriskie is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 license. creativecommons.org/licenses/...
Source: chriszabriskie.com/darkglow/
Artist: chriszabriskie.com/
SOURCES AND REFERENCES:
Alan Moore Talks To John Higgs About The 20th Century. Video source.
• Alan Moore talks to Jo...
Grant Morrison On Experimental Writing In Doom Patrol. Video source.
• Grant Morrison on Expe...
0:25 - “While Grant Morrison has criticized…”
Non-exhaustive list of Grant Morrison mentioning Alan Moore.
/ on_the_socalled_feud_b...
0:35 - “What made it a topic of discussion…”
Alan Moore And Superfolks. Part 3. The Strange Case Of Grant Morrison And Alan Moore, by Pádraig Ó Méalóid. Published November 18, 2012.
www.comicsbeat.com/alan-moore...
3:45 - “The origin seems to begin…”
Alan Moore And Superfolks. Part 1. The Case For The Prosecution, by Pádraig Ó Méalóid. Published October 25, 2012.
www.comicsbeat.com/alan-moore...
5:07 - “As did the writer of Super-Folks…”
"Superfolks" -- Apres Moi Le Deluge by Robert Mayer. Date unknown. Circa 2011?
web.archive.org/web/201108260...
6:00 - “In a separate article, published six day later…”
The Strange Case Of Grant Morrison And Alan Moore, As Told By Grant Morrison, by Laura Sneddon, with commentary by Grant Morrison. Published November 24, 2012.
www.comicsbeat.com/the-strang...
6:40 - “The earliest one can one Moore referencing Morrison…”
The Craft: An Interview With Alan Moore, by Daniel Whitson. Originally published September 09, 2002.
www.comicscube.com/2012/07/the...
7:22 - “Correction. Further searching…”
Boy From The Borough by Pádraig Ó Méalóid. March 17, 2011.
www.3ammagazine.com/3am/boy-f...
8:35 - “As Morrison accurately noted…”
Links to articles used in the following montage of mainstream news sources.
1. www.gq.com/story/alan-moore-i...
2. www.theguardian.com/books/202...
3. www.indiewire.com/2022/10/wat... (quoting the Guardian article)
4. www.avclub.com/alan-moore-gq-... (quoting GQ article)
5. screenrant.com/alan-moore-lsd... (quoting Guardian article)
10:19 - “Various articles on various websites…”
gizmodo.com/exclusive-grant-m...
uproxx.com/viral/grant-morris...
www.digitalspy.com/comics/a44...
sequart.org/magazine/17235/on-...
www.amazon.ca/Last-War-Albion...
411mania.com/movies/grant-mor...
/ digging-up-grievances-...
mysteriousuniverse.org/2019/0...
10:54 - The Last Alan Moore Interview? by Pádraig Ó Méalóid. January 09, 2014
slovobooks.wordpress.com/2014...
13:42 - “Alan Moore didn’t speak to me…
Grant Morrison Opens Up About Feuding With Alan Moore by Charles Pullman-Moore. Published December 11, 2018.
gizmodo.com/exclusive-grant-m...
15:06 - “In fact, that longer interview…”
Comics Legend Alan Moore Eviscerates Grant Morrison in “Last Public Interview” by Gavia Baker-Whitelaw. Published on January 10, 2014.
www.dailydot.com/parsec/fando...
#alanmoore #grantmorrison #modernage #comicbooks #comics #dccomics #feud 
Развлечения
Support Strange Brain Parts on Patreon: www.patreon.com/StrangeBrainParts
Grant Morrison has no hair, while Alan Moore has alot of hair. There you go, that’s the feud
I have a lot of hair and therefore I side with Alan Moore.
@@thumper8684 you clearly understand the feud better than most
My hair is starting to thin, so I've taken to wearing a Rorschach mask to Tesco.
I have hair but I have just read a few issues of The Invisibles so I'm a bit torn on sides. If we wanted to pick fault we might question his inclusion of a transphobic character!!!
Well, Majorkill said that bald white guy will be asshole...but clearly he didn't count on...Morrison.
(Also Morrison is they/them non-binary, so maybe they can become LGBT as well if you count Tarol Hunt of Goblins comic.)
It’s been said that the reason DC hasn’t collapsed from Alan Moore’s attack spells is because of Grant Morrison’s protective wards.
When was the last time something happened in DC comics that wasn't retconned midway through? For example, DC managed to botch Batman Inc with new 52 that tried to be a clean slate before they got bored and it wasn't.
@@volodymyrbilyk555 They're still making money.
@@sirmount2636They're owned by a corporation, they're not making much money but siphoning it.
Most comic debuts outside the top 10. 30% the roster are Bat Titles. Batman fell out of the top 50. Manga running rings round them. Woke writing and else world gimmicks.
Not imploding and still making some sheckles doesnt equal success.
@@TheMightyMidget Theor market share has certainly declined but they are still profitable. Comics are incredibly cheap to mass produce & the returns from film/merchandise are worth it.
lmao
Great comment
These two having a grudge between themselves seems like an obvious narrative direction in their lives. Both represent a different extreme of the comic fandom.
As always, great video Brain Man.
They do have two polar opposite approaches to comics. Moore is dark and has made a carrier of grim and gritty reboots. Morison has a certain hope to his writing style
@@robling1937
What Alan deconstructs, Grant reconstructs.
@@carbootstudios2459 That's such a succinct and accurate way of putting it!
@@robling1937
Really? Cheers.
It's curious that they are perceived as opposites because I see they work as quite complementary in a lot of ways, specially in the manners that Grant built (or destroyed, in some cases) some of Moore's ideas.
It’s a shame there isn’t more writers in comics like these two. No one else come close to them
Ewing and Cates???
@@DonShotta24 ha ha no
Peter Milligan, Los Bros. Hernandez, Chester Brown…
We don't need them. We just need good comic book writers with their own ideas. Not everyone has to be like them.
Neil Gaiman?
This always struck me as one of those instances where the public interested in the matter wants there to be more there. I do recall an interview with Warren Ellis (another name with his own issues) where when asked about the two said, "they don't get along. Leave it at that." That's what marked this whole thing out in my eyes. We want our epic thinking comics folk to have an epic feud; each see the other as a person in the same circles who they don't like and avoid. There's not much else there.
Moore and Morrison's esoteric beliefs is probably why the whole "feud" was played up. Most media around it frames it as a long standing mystical battle between two British comic writers, when it's just Morrison taking minor swipes at Moore and Moore giving one long response. It's not as epic or interesting as everyone makes it out to be.
You guys are so full of crap lol, because I watched some Morrison documentary and he said Moore threatened him when he asked Moore permission to continue miracleman, you just want to retroactively feel smart.
It's a real life 20th century version of the magic duel from "the prestige"
Nah...I'm not into this feud. Infact, I'd prefer it wasn't a thing
@@johnnyscifi i'd much prefeer if they had a friendship instead of a feud
These two are bound to not get along. Moore is that one cynical guy who always tries to distance his work from wacky and cartoonish stuff while Morrison embraces these elements. They can not be more different.
Two of my favourite writers, no doubt.
Personally, I've always preferred Morrison's work. I have my reasons, I'm Scottish and a Glasow native. Grant is the "local lad done good" and I recall him, in the 80's popping into the local comic shops to pick up is comics. I know Grant has an affection for comics and it's myriad of characters and I genuinely feel this comes across in his writing. All Star Superman and his Justice League run being two examples, there are many more.
Moore may have loved the medium at some stage but definitely not now and sometimes I interpret his work as being a bit mean spirited. Other times he exhibits a wonderfully wicked sense of humour.
Hate when ma and pa are fighting lol.
Ha ha ha. Yeah, I somewhat had the same perspective at times. It was like watching the parents go at it.
Moore loves comics, hates the industry. He clearly expressed this love in his BBC curse.
His X-Men run is another great example of his deep love for classic characters
I agree.
“As a wroiter, it’s important to make sure things never get stuck in your bum” 👍
- Alan Moore
Lol
Some of the negative attention to Moore's work comes from superhero comic fans who seem angry about Moore's attitude to superhero comics. They want to suggest his work was never good as an attempt to nullify his criticism.
Nah he just do alot of rapey shit. That's my issue with him
I harshly disagree. I love Moore's work, and I don't mind his criticism of superheroes. What I can't stand is his immature pettiness, hypocrisy, and how he trashes the fan base that gave him a name. If it weren't for comic fans, nobody would care what he has to say and he hasn't written anything particularly jaw dropping in over 30 years. And he definitely thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. I have personally never met him in real life, but I know people who have and they all say that he's just odd and he smells funny. Again, I love his work, but I don't really look up to him like I did in my younger days.
@@someperson9999 Cool, an anonymous person is claiming other anonymous people can definitely verify Alan Moore has body odor. Definitely sounds like an important and valid critique and not the sour grapes of a random person who feels disrespected by Moore's statements about comics. You've totally disproven my point.
@@noneofyourbusiness4616 You didn't even address anything else I wrote. Just the one outlier, and the experiences of people I've met which you may feel free disregard. And I think Moore's criticism of the industry is valid to an extend, but I don't like him calling comic book fans "emotionally retarded". I also think his argument of superhero stories being a precursor to Fascism is hyperbolic and just flat out wrong. Based on what I know about Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy, is that it had much more to do with the aftermath of WW1, the depression, political corruption, unemployment, crime, and politcal violence that laid the groundwork for these entities to rise up. It's not that the Germans read too many superhero comics and then thought killing all the Jews was A-okay. And my anonymity is my right to privacy.
@someperson9999 yes, Moore seems quite a card. He usually sounds hateful and arrogant.
I respect Moores impact on the industry. He's brought some great ideas. But I don't really care for the actual writing. Tastes vary. I prefer Russell, Gaiman, Kirkman, and Lemire. Or the earlier writers like Simonson, Thomas, Miller Englehart, Conway, and Lee.
Comic writers claiming plagiarism is silly. Every comicbook story draws from the past.
After the later issues of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, I started to agree with pretty much all of Morrison's criticisms. When Moore has no limitations his writing gets so crammed with inside-jokes and meta references that it's almost incomprehensible. And what's worst is I think that's exactly how Moore wants it to be - he WANTS the reader to feel confused and out of breath trying to keep up with his cleverness, and he keeps tweaking the reader in ways that sometimes feel like contempt. There's a kind of condescension that I can't stand with a lot of Alan Moore's work that kills my ability to appreciate it, and even though you could legitimately call it genius on some level, it still turns me off.
Very apt. I think his golden age of warchmen v for vendetta etc is long over. Also he got lucky with watchmen uf it was just charlton charachtwrs who would care abput it
If you've got similar taste to Moore that element of his work is great & if you don't get a reference it's something else to research that'll you probably enjoy as well. Personally I prefer his prose to his comics anyhoo. Each to their own init xxx
@@turtleanton6539 I think that's disingenuous. First, they were original characters based heavily of Charlton characters, so them being previously established heroes would've likely furthered boosted its popularity. And its not like he hasn't achieved success with a gritty reboot of an old-timey character: Miracleman being the obvious one.
@@turtleanton6539Most of Moore's America's Best Comics line was quite wonderful.
The more I hear about the behavior of some people in the comics industry and especially "fandom", the more I realize writer J.D. SALINGER and STEVE DITKO might have been right all along to let their work speak for them!
Ditko was a rare one. He also didn't bad mouth Marvel, or DC toward the end of his career.
@@deadpilled2942 He didn't have to "badmouth" them , he just wrote honestly and let the truth stand on its own. He understood what the game was. Don't like the system, do your best work but fight to improve conditions or leave it and go to another company! Whining achieves and produces nothing.
I always thought that the best way to do fame as a writer is anonymously (for as long as you can get away with it). The fewer assumptions brought by the reader then the better. The nightmare (which you see in other fields and especially in something where the ''talent'' is questionable to begin with, like reality tv star or whatever) is when your private life becomes what you are known for.
Grant himself said you can refer to him as “he/him” just FYI, he had a recent interview touching on it during his LALivetalk and how that site and others ran with the “they/them” idea
Gets a bit confusing on here especially when you have to “correct” old quotes
Do you know if there's a copy of that interview online? I just tried looking for it briefly but it couldn't seem to find anything other than short articles written about parts of it.
@@commandercello search ‘LAlivetalk Grant Morrison’ on RUclips, it’ll come up. It was back in September
@@doomdazed Ah, thanks! Totally blanked on checking RUclips, for some reason. If anyone else is curious, here's the link to that ruclips.net/video/67Tc05rf2Mw/видео.html and he talks about gender identity and pronouns around 46 minutes in-in short, they're okay with any pronouns (though I don't want to deter people from listening to it by just giving a TL;DR, as it is some interesting stuff).
For real. When you're talking about two people (Moore and Morrison) and you refer to one of them as "they", it sounds like you're talking about both of them. Singular pronouns exist for a reason.
It’s funny how Grant Morrison is always represented by a photo of him in his heyday, while Alan always gets the most recent, most haggard picture available. For balance, I should note that Grant is old and fat now
He's not that fat
I think there's also a bit of difference in mindset, not just criticism here and there....Grant Morrison did interview with Rolling Stone (which I read just to know more about their falling out with Mark Millar), and when asked about "alt comic" like Chris Ware and so forth, Grant got really harsh with them, basically calling them overly educated elitists who dismiss superheroes because they're too cool and pompous to acknowledge the importance and significance of superhero comic in the pop culture. I know Alan hasnt been active in comic scene but it's true that he's been in that scene for a while, like Fantagraphics crowd, praising Love and Rockets, working with Fantagraphics to make In Pictopia, etc. I do feel like those 2's difference in fundamental idea about comics is pretty different; it's clear Alan LOVES superhero comic but maybe he's not as passionate or defensive about it compared to Grant who's shown more love toward the medium.
After reading Supreme and learning about things like Tom Strong and Top 10, it's very hard for me to see Moore as this cranky old man kind of personality that's been formed as of now.
Like, the guy LOVES superheroes. I'd say he loves Superman nearly as much as Grant does, which does have kind of tragic tones in regards to their relationship. And while I see and at points agree in his criticisms regarding their invasion in their invasion of the film industry, I still doubt he's automatically against them in their genre.
And while he's attributed as the one who killed superheroes along with Pat Mills' Marshall Law (sorry Ennis, The Boys just doesn't reach Marshall Law, but you have other works), I'd say it was in a way that felt necessary.
Personally, I'm more of a Morrison guy, but man if I don't have comics from Moore. Can't help but love them both.
@@tonym.s7988 Personally, I saw Supreme as kind of an apology. I mean his most influential works were deconstructions of Superman and other heroes: Marvelman is constantly compared to Superman in the story and places him in a grounded setting, and he attempts to explore a series take on Captain Atom in Doctor Manhattan. Supreme was him taking a serious character and placing them in a lighter setting.
In my opinion, both of them are fantastic, superb creators that have molded the face of comic books with their astounding work over the years and are deserving of all the respect in the world. Whatever so-called feud they have (wich I agree with you is pretty much non-existent), is meaningless and of no real importance in the grand scheme of things.
We should be grateful for all the masterpieces they've gifted the medium with.
Excellent video, Overlord!
Very clarifying and informative on a somewhat nebulous topic that I had only known of in a tangential way. 👍🏻👍🏻
Fantastic video! I’ve always heard about this supposed feud but I never knew the full context until now. I will take Morrison’s side on how Moore’s comments/attitude on the industry are perceived and his consistent use of SA. These two points are worth a larger discussion and Morrison is allowed to raise those critiques. I also find it funny that Morrison’s early attitude towards Moore is basically akin to a child rebelling against their dad and them looking back on that attitude and cringing. Moore may still have that outlook towards Morrison, like a dad saying “Kids today don’t know how to respect the elders”
I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who mentioned this a while ago as a topic of examination. So, I thought I'd give a look over and try to put in into perspective for those that might be unaware of its existence. Or for those that might only know of it, but not the full context.
Moore is literally a ‘KIDS THESE DAYS’ kind of guy so this all checks out. He may not have SA in every title he’s written but it’s half of them (roughly speaking) so still a valid criticism that I doubt Morrison originated.
As always, your work never fails to impress. VERY great job on putting this together. I never knew this situation carried so much gravitas.
This video's a bit melancholy for me, as I enjoy both writers. I wondered what would happen if things had been amicable between them, if they could've collaborated on something.
They are two big swinging dicks. Alan Moore is a notorious grump and Morrison was using the feud (by his own admission) to build his career up. He managed to get under Moore's skin finally by pointing out the sexual violence issue. That's kind of all of it.
My favorite Alan Moore work is Saga Of The Swamp Thing & my favorite Grant Morrison work is Doom Patrol. I'm a sucker for dark horror & absurd superhero comic book stories. I have the entire runs of both Saga Of The Swamp Thing & Doom Patrol.
@strangebrainparts You've done an excellent job of tracking down the times where these two authors have referred to each other, and the to-and-fro that has followed. One work (by Morrison) that must be considered in this ongoing dialogue between the two is DC's Seven Soldiers of Victory, specifically Manhattan Guardian #1 and 2, which depicts two "subway pirates" at war with one another. Crucially, their names are All-Beard and No-Beard, (stand-ins for the hirsute Moore and the cue-ball Morrison). It's Morrison's sideways look at Vertigo, and magic in general in the DCU.
Morrison contrasts their approach to the characters with Moore's. Moore imagined what the superhero's impact might be on our world, Morrison chose to attempt to understand what it might be like for us to visit theirs
I still enjoy grant Morrison on the Fatman podcast talking killing joke and praising Alan Moore writing the last joker story.
Morrison likes more than a few of Moore's comics, Miracleman for example, but doesn't necessarily bow before those generally considered groundbreaking (Watchmen). On the other hand, Moore pretends not to know Morrison's work, and when someone catches him in a lie he throws crap at his work.
There's very thin gruel in this for anyone looking for an actual feud. They're just two different writers, ultimately. I can say I love them both equally for their work.
Fascinating video. Thank you very much for taking the time to explore and explain this. Fantastic work
Voldemort vs Dumbledore
Although I admire and enjoy the work of both men, it would be hard, given their respective personalities, for them not to clash on something at some stage. Kudos to both though in elevating comics to be viable as a mature literary genre. And many thanks for the continuing excellent videos on this channel.
I alwas found interesting that, while Moore wrote a comic about Swamp Thing, reinventing the character and bringing him closer to the natural world, Morrison did something similar with Animal Man, reinventing the character and bringing him closer to the animal world, although it should be noted that exploring the natural/animal world is not the only goal of both series.
Maybe it was a coincidence, maybe not. Just an observation.
It's not. You will find almost all of Morrison's plot lines in previous works from Moore, Milligan, and a handful of others. I suspect Morrison's comix space wizard persona is a riff on Moore's own equally cringey comix earth wizard.
I've enjoyed a lot of work from both men but Morrison's work, outlook and career path owe so much to Moore that it's no wonder he took shots at Moore as a young man. The phrase "anxiety of influence" comes to mind.
Morrison's Animal Man was based more on the creator-creation feedback loop, David Bohm's physical theories and was a love letter to Silver Age comics. It was later creators who came up with Red and so on.
@@piotrd7355 🤣 keep telling yourself that, at least until you read Moore's Swamp thing and can no longer deny the obvious.
@@RarebitFiends I read the whole thing. Runs by Moore, Veitch and Millar. There's as much esoterica there as in Dungeon & Dragons.
Great video. Not related directly but I always wonder were this hatred that people attribute to Moore on disparaging comics is based on. His most recent comic work on superheroes is very optimistic (the ABC line, Supreme etc) even to the extent of his Simpsons appereance that has a deleted scene of him singing the Little Lulu theme. Although the most recent work like Providence is grotesque, that's on par with the subject matter and deep dive into Lovecraft more than the contemps he may have.
After reading much on the dealing behind the scenes, the "True Hollywood story" I have come to realize that by all accounts Moore is a man disilussioned with the mainstream industry itself. Were it had claimed to dismiss professionalism and the creators for profit and although the likes of DC wish to put face and say they don't need Moore, they clearly like to regurgitate his ideas quite often (Manhattan in the DCU, V on the Alfred show, Tom Stron in Terrifics and the recent tease to finding the "Watchman")
I'm more of a grant morisson guy. I respect Moore as an artist but I honestly have a better time reading all star superman than watchmen.
I don't think you're meant to have a good time reading Watchmen as it shows superheroes are kind of f...ed up
This was so good! I really love both authors, and it bums me out they have so many issues between them. As usual, top notch research and presentation.
It's a fairly fascinating rivalry for a lot of reasons. One of them is because it's full of mutual contradictions. Moore claims he never quite heard of Morrison (outside of a chance meeting early in Morrison's career) before Morrison debuted in Vertigo, but Vertigo editor-in-chief Karen Berger has confirmed that she heard of Morrison to begin with by *Moore* recommending them to Berger, and in reverse Morrison claims Moore prohibited them from writing Miracleman but this is supported by nobody but Morrison. It can be a legitimately hard thing to pierce which of them is telling the truth.
I recommend a lot Elizabeth Sandifer's book/blog "The Last War in Albion" which takes a extremely detailed look at the paralleling career/feud of Morrison and Moore in the context of comics and the British Invasion through a very esoteric, magical lenses (as no doubt both writers would be amused by). Sandifer has a personal bias towards backing Alan Moore, but otherwise it's broady even-handed and a fascinating breakdown of two of the most iconic and most talented writers of the medium who are both eerily similar but also starkly different, united by magic as applied to art and divided by how to apply it.
I'll point out that Moore has slagged a lot of writers and artists, often for things he's done himself, including exercising such comic book conventions as taking past stories of a character and building upon it. So while, e.g., it was okay for Moore to build upon the original John Broome silver age Green Lantern stories, it was then somehow terribly wrong and supposedly an act of plagiarism (in Moore's opinion) for GeoffJohns to then further build upon what Moore did with that continuing character and his continuing history. It isn't just Moore's use of public domain characters that was hypocritical, but his apparent insistence that he was the only one with any right to build upon a comic character's history and backstory, building on top of what people did before. Morrison was just another person caught up in this general attitude Moore has. When it comes to his critique of Morrison "ripping off" Moorcock, 1) Morrison was very open whenever he did a tribute to Moorock, 2) Moorcock invited the general public to create their own takes on Jerry Cornelius, which is what Morrison did, 3) Moore inconsistently has highly praised other takes on Jerry Cornelius such as Bryan Talbot's Luther Arkwright, 4) Moore seems to have encouraged this attitude in Moorcock, and 5) it was a very small part of Morrison's output, and well in the past (except a couple of pages of tribute in the Invisibles). I admire both writers, so I hate seeing the silliness between them. But to me, Morrison has never claimed to be faultless in the pairs' history, and seems to have addressed it once and put it behind him, and that comes off to me more mature, honest and objective. One thing I'll agree with Moore on is that Morrison's Marvelman story was of little value, but I accept Morrison's account of its origin as not being some desperate attempt to ride the Moore wave.
Yeah, considering how he got his start with building upon previously existing characters its quite hypocritical for him to get mad at "plagarism". Like, lets not act like Doctor Manhattan wasn't just a ripoff of the original Captain Atom, or that Rorschach was The Question with an alt color scheme. Also, the Marvelman story was really off base and I don't think it understands what made Bates such a terrific antagonist in the first place.
The feud is so strong they decided to have the opposit ammounts of hair
Excellent topic for a video, nicely done. I’m so glad i discovered your channel a few years ago. You never fail to impress with your insightful coverage on this medium.
Every time you said "they," I thought you were talking about both Morrison AND Moore.
Just found this channel and amazing narration and analysis of everything. Subscribed!
Two of the best, perhaps simply THE 2 best, writers in the history of the medium. Too bad they never got along to see it themselves.
Add Neil Gaiman and you’ve got the triad.
I don't know if this can really be said when one's career is a ripoff of the other. If you want to replace Morrison with Milligan in that statement though, I can agree.
@@RarebitFiends When it comes to the "magical" approach to comics, Grant is years ahead of Moore.
@Piotr D lol, if that is true, it's only because Moore has retired from comics.
@@RarebitFiends In the sense that when Moore started writing Promethea Grant was already finishing The Invisibles. Promethea is not bad, but about 2/3 of the length the whole "magic" starts to fall apart, and it starts to occur to a person that Moore has a very "librarian" understanding of all the occult stuff he tries to include there.
Great video like always!
very well put together! cheers from texas
This is what happens when two dudes who spend way too much time sitting around and thinking stuff up decide to think about each other... While I genuinely love many works by both of them, this whole tif just seems very poncey, to borrow a British term.
It did seem, at times, that both did a bit too much overthinking.
both are brilliant. love them both been following teh work of both of them since the mid 80s. in comparison my fave Moore: DR and Quinch, ballad of Halo jones, Swamp thing, Watchmen, miracleman, V for Vendetta, Killing JOke, League of Extraordinary gentlemen, (so that is 8 works), Grant Morrison: Loved: Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Zenith, Arkham Asylum, Legend of the dark knight : Gothic, Hellblazer, (so that is 6 works).
There was a tweet I think, by Leah Moore (Alan's daughter) a while back that stated that Alan once read Superman to his grandkids during the holidays, and stated, (paraphrasing here) "How can anyone think he HATES the superhero genre?"
Moore's recent book ILLUMINATIONS, particularly the novella "What We Can Know About Thunderman," is a scathing, acidic, "How the Sausage is Made" satire/expose of the US comics industry, particularly the big two, Marvel and DC - not by name, of course. "Where did the comic/superhero industry go wrong? It was never right in the first place," seems to be the theme of the novella, along with "so much wasted potential," as well.
Saying that, it may not be a stretch to infer that what many people think is a "feud" between Moore and Morrison may be Moore lamenting (albeit subtly) that writers like Morrison have such influence in the superhero genre and do nothing substantial to change the industry for the better. Of course, since Morrison is in the thick of it, he may be aware that if rocks the boat in the Big Two too much, he will be replaced; the characters, not the writers, are what matter to Corporate.
The problem more or less comes from his prejudices that one should expand their horizons as they get older. He has locked superheroes in his mind as the simple thing to be enjoyed in childhood but to be moved past from in adulthood. Which triggers his buttons whenever it's brought up how much grown people like superheroes in modern pop culture.
It seems with Watchmen he thought he could take the superhero into a place where it could be fit for adults. But he thinks he failed because the peers and future peers took a very different lesson from what he thought his work had been preaching. As most of Moore works are clearly just his rationalist spell casting to make you think like he does.
Personally i'm much more the tear the divisions down person. So i'm openly against such a concept. I just wish people were more inclined to try many different things instead of looking for reasons why they don't have to care. Phrases like "oh it's for kids" and "Oh you're not old enough for that" will tick me off until the day and die and then my sassy ghost will still be mad.
Great video! I really enjoyed it!
this video is great. so well balanced and thought out!!!
The quote from Supergods skips over a bit you might have considered quoting: "...We (Morrison and Zenith co-creator Steve Yeowell) praised creative theft and plagiarism, quoted the French playwright Antonin Artaud and sneeringly suggested that the likes of Watchmen were pompous, stuffy, and buttock-clenchingly dour." It's not the only criticism offered of Moore's work.
Re the so-called "contradiction" at 9:00 : No, that isn't a contradiction. There is a difference between "trying" to get famous on a particular someone else's coattails, and getting some noteriety due to a critique of that same person. Motive is an important element. Morrison wrote a number of columns where he was playing a snarky character, only one was about Moore. And Morrison was quite open about writing a silly column when he was immature, and that he regrets it. And it'd probably be long forgotten if Moore hadn't rehashed it long after Morrison already had an acclaimed, established career. Additionally, the fact is the context of Morrison's "contradictory" statement is that it was in response to Moore claiming everything Morrison did was a ripoff of Moore or Moorcock, when Morrison ably demonstrated otherwise with an accurate timeline and analysis.He wasn't denying writing the column and never has, just its motives and supposed role as evidence of a career Moore claims was built entirely around Moore. That is BS.
As a comics fan who spwcifically enjoys the worl of both Grant Norrison and Alan Moore equally, i cant help but notice uow extremely one sides this entire video is. Its fisappointing, when i was just hoping to learn something hy watching this.
Its very clever, yhe order you brong things up on, the way you amplify some things and minimise others, conjecturing in favour of Morrison and assuming negatively towards Moore throughout.
Great video! Now, can you get to the bottom of the Morrison / Millar feud? Seems like A LOT of vitriol from the Morrison camp considering it seems to have started after lack of credit for 1 issue of The Authority ghost written by Morrison.
On the other hand, Moore and Gaiman are best pals.
Also Gaiman and Morrison or Peter Milligan and Morrison.
Great video,
I couldn't care less about any feud between them. I just want great comics and novels from them both. I'm selfish.
I see. Makes sense to me 😊
Handled the right way, this feud could have resulted in amazing work that garnered lots of money for all involved. Providing both men felt the competitive juices to participate.
Alan Moore wasnt wrong about Morrison's Arkham Asylum. I never cared for Morrison trying to make the Batman mythos weirder and "darker" than it naturally was instead of just focusing on decent plots and storylines. Great to find out that he admitted to being a Morrissey-inspired edgelord because his stories came off that way.
I'm absolutely sure I've read Morrison telling a story of asking Moore permission to write a MiracleMan story whereupon Moore's refusal was rude and almost gangster-like. I love both writers and have been enjoying Starnge Brain parts for years.
I saw an interview on RUclips last week where Morrison said that. I think he was on stage doing a talk. Good luck if you decide to look for it.
What about Supergods? Morrison made a extensive review of Moore's work and impact on industry years before Moore gave the "last interview". Morrison aknowledges that was Marvelman that bring he back to be involved with comics. At the same time, a lot of criticisms, some with a hint of mean-spiritedness, come from the same book. His critique of Watchmen pictures Moore as a self-obsessed writer and Watchmen as a flawed work. "The God of Watchmen could not hide and begged for our attention at every page turn. He was a
jealous Maker who refused to allow any of his creations to be smarter than he was". "Take out Moore’s passion, his excellence as a wordsmith, and his formal obsessions, and save only his cynicism, his gleeful descriptions of cruelty, and his need to expose the potentially wounded sexuality of cartoon characters, and you had the germ of a strain of superhero-porn comics." "It was the violated superhero nally confronting the voyeuristic reader. I
wanted the superhero to face up to us-to challenge the zealous missionary work of Moore and his successors, who had inicted real-world tortures and judgments upon the ethereal, paper-thin constructs of unfettered imagination." "Alan Moore scored payback when he praised Dave McKean’s eorts but described the result as “a gilded turd” nevertheless. This was, I must add, after I’d cruelly dismissed Watchmen as “the 300-page equivalent of a 6th form poem” in a semispoof interview with style magazine i-D, so I felt compelled to take my lumps with a grin."
By Rao, I love this channel.
Id love to see how one last comic by Moore. I feel with how dry the industry is atm, we need one more work to shake things up a bit
Great video 👍
I'm surprised you didn't mention how apparently when Morrison was offered Miracle Man they called Moore and Moore told him to backoff
Yes, this is a good video but there's a lot it doesn't go into. Of course, that can be said for any video on a lengthy topic, but both men explicitly point to the "feud" as having started over Morrison wanting to take over Marvelman / Miracleman before Moore was even done on it, although their accounts dispute each other. According to Morrison, they contacted both Dez Skinn and Moore, with Moore writing a letter back essentially telling Morrison to eff off. Moore denies he ever sent the letter but acknowledges Morrison went to Dez Skinn and tried to take MM away.
Two greatest minds behind storytelling will always butt heads at some point in their lives when working together. They are both geniuses and masters of storytelling
Most If not all of Moore's work seems to stand the test of time. His retcons still valid within the characters he then wrote. Morrison's X-men Run was retconned almost immediately. GM does what he wants and says what he thinks is right, like his opinion of Joker being choked by Batman at the End of Killing Joke. That is his interpretation but he states it as Fact. He 'creates' Damian Wayne But never acknowledges the original work that predates his idea, dismissing those stories. Moore has never dismissed anything that happened prior to his work. Not Squadron Supreme or the Fact He wanted to use the Charleston Characters but was told not to, hence the Watchmen. One of these guys likes to prop himself up by putting people, or rather their work down; the other only tries enhance the work of those who came before him, and hence bring them up with him for modern audiences to discover. Moore is not rehashing characters that were popular and milking them for what they are worth. That is what DC is doing so they can sell another book, like Before Watchmen. A set of stories that really does nothing more than make you realize how good the original book was.
Had no idea they fueded
I love both!
as an artist, my personal philosophy is that if an artist has the vision of something disturbing, its important to express it within the universe of their work. there is also the influence of early crime and horror comics with these themes. comics which had motives to sell through sex and violence for money, not art.
Morrison's an idea man whose mind is so expansive it's occasionally thrilling. Moore deconstructs other people's ideas cleverly and sometimes even incisively. They both have been hugely influential. Any "feud" between them is far less interesting than comparing and contrasting them critically. Of course, that sort of thing introduces yet another author, which is the critic. This journalist does everything he can to remain factual, neutral, and succinct on the topic of their media bickering, and it's a great video on that topic. That said, Morrison's probably read everything Moore's published, and is therefore an informed critic of his work; Alan Moore is a snob who heard someone who does something as vile as writing superhero comics dared to suggest he's not God, so he sniped back a bit because a journalist asked him about it. When's the video comparing/contrasting Moore's Jerusalem with Joyce's Ulysses? (Ulysses is better. SPOILERS)
I've been reading both these writers since they appeared in the American comic scene. I can't think of two writers who are totally not like each other in every style. Both are masters at retconing and updating concepts in Super Heroes no one ever thought could be updated past their beginnings. However there is one huge difference. Alan Moore single-handedly changed comics forever. I honestly don't think Alan Moore even intended to do this, but he did and it happened. Grant Morrison, on the other hand, has changed heroes, or super teams but his impact on comics begins and ends with his specific stories. And if not heavily controled by his editors Morrison will always go from great concept to to weird even for weird. (There are way to many examples to even try to list.) Alan Moore is and always has been Alan Moore. However, the earlier implication that Alan Moore is some kind of fading star is utter insane. Alan Moore walked away from DC, they didn't fire him. Alan Moore has made it clear since forever he wants nothing to do with mainstream comics quite loudly. So loudly we heard it way before there was an internet. Alan Moore turns down every single big money offers to convert his stories into other mediums. And every single time some director wanted to translates Alan Moore's work to a movie they always ask him first. Which seems weird to me because after the third one was told off, you had to wonder why anyone would even bother anymore. There is one big truth though. There is a lot of sexual violence in Alan Moore's work. I think Miracleman is probably the only series where there isn't any. I have no problem with sex in stories but after Necronomicon I just couldn't read anymore Alan Moore. I mean it feature two issues of a woman constantly being assaulted by a monster then teaming up with that monster for revenge. I'm a comic collector but I threw that series away because it was just insanely gross and I expected better from him. It's also funny that Alan Moore complains about mainstream comics given, from my POV, they were the best things he's ever done up until now. Grant Morrison isn't as bothered by the business of comics as Moore is. He is an amazing writer. But in the end there's just one hard truth that is totally self-evident. The one thing Grant Morrison will never be is an Alan Moore I honestly don't think anyone will ever reach that level. Because Alan Moore didn't seek that level, but he damn sure earned it. Grant Morrison is a great comic writer - when they control his "let's get weird" levels. He's just done too man excellent series not to be considered one of the greats. But feuding with Alan Moore? I'm glad you debunked it because it's just something one should really think about before doing. It won't end like one thinks. After all, we are talking about Alan Moore.
This could be simplified as Ancient Traditional Warlock disagrees with Multi-faceted Modern Futurist Chaos Mage’s approach to largely the same subject matter : Using Comics as a Weapon Against Reailty Itself .
Beautifully written
It would be poetic to go from enemies to friends.
It probably doesn’t help the urge for outlets and fan to overstate the depth of this conflict that they both, as has been long joked about, kinda look like comic book characters. There are many other very real, very no none sense bitter conflicts in the history of comics. But none where it seems like one guy might actually pull out a ray gun or hit the other with a lightning bolt. People want to see life imitating art when in reality things rarely get that serious between the artists themselves.
i love that our great comics aunties can't stand each other
This video has reinforced my view of Alan Moore as courting controversy for its own sake and Grant Morrison as a bit of a ponce.
On the business of pronouns, it’s fine to use them in your script but replacing them in quotations is unethical, especially when the quotation is someone’s answer in an interview. Journalists have been sacked doing just that in the past. It would be better to put a note underneath the quotation in question saying it was from an interview/article published before the individual changed which pronouns they use.
That's the entire point of [brackets]. It's to show you have changed the word from the actual quote to fit your usage.
@@TheOldMPClub It’s unethical to go back and change the language, regardless to whether you have pointed out you have changed the language by using brackets or not.
Great video! As an admirer of both, I feel you have given this topic the unemotional discussion it deserves. I myself have always wondered if their different attitudes towards the occult might have something to do with it; Moore being a traditionalist & openly dismissive of Chaos Magick, which is Morrison's preferred occult mode.
In the end, I feel the animosity probably comes from their different positions towards superheroes and the comics industry. Moore is dismissive of it all, while Morrison proudly engages with it. One feels the genre is childish, proto-fascist and beyond repair, the other is hopeful about it and wants to achieve its potential.
Ultimately, I like both, but I think Morrison has the more healthy approach to the problems of the industry & the genre. They work within the machine to create work that is still meaningful to many people. While I do agree with Moore on many things, I do feel that he throws a lot of interesting and subversive creators under the bus by being so wide in his dismissal. It's certainly understandable, but it doesn't do much for the medium apart from venting his grievances and confirming people's prejudices about comics.
Actually IMHO Moore is mainly dismissive of the Big 2 of the comics industry DC and Marvel, he has gone out of his way to highlight works from quite a few "interesting and subversive creators" such as Brian K. Vaughan (Saga) and Chris Ware (The Acme Novelty Library) Zander Cannon (Kaijumax) James Vance (Kings in Disguise & On the Rope) among some others. I've always felt that Moore's issues are with the comics industry and it's history towards the people who created it more than a dismissal of comics as a medium myself.
@@cha5 Isn't praising something for being subversive is just another way of quietly throwing shade at the way it regularly works?
@@laststrike4411 If “the way it regularly works” meant that comics and sequential art as a medium were solely limited to superhero material that the Big 2 put out, that has never been the case though. Plus if Moore had limited himself to “the way it regularly works” we would never have gotten works such as From Hell or TLOEG or Lost Girls and Providence among others.
Luv Both Of Emmm (Pause), Enjoyed Their Work......🦸🦹💯🦁💯🦹🦸
I didn't realize they had a feud 😅
Moore is seen as the big/important comic book author by the literati, now. In thirty years Morison and Gaiman will be sharing the number one rank and Moore will be in the top ten or top five. Frank Miller will be further down the list.
I doubt it
@keithparker1346 That's your right. But much of Moore's reputation is about getting there first. Morison and Gaiman have put out high volumes of quality, and much of what they have done is enduringly popular. Moore's stock with the critics was crazy high and bound to come down. Meanwhile, the other two gentlemen (no sane person would call Miller gentle) have been slowly building respect. That will count in the end.
Frank Miller has proved a straight jacket for Batman and DC generally. Miller's output has been limited and combined the dull with the shocking. Once the shock value goes away, only the dullness is left.
@@thomasdevine867 until Morrisons work gets a Hugo or in a 100 best books of all time he will be small time... Gaiman I like but he's a bit too mainstream to stand out imo
Its interesting how different things were back then. Moore nowadays is only really given headlines based on his comic industry opinions and many ppl focus on that nowadays, while the issues of certain racial portrayals and how he uses sexual assault in his work isn't talked about as much. Also, I do recall Moore did explain his reasoning for disliking ppl doing sequels to his work while defending his use of characters in league in an old livestream a while back, uploaded on youtube as Alan Moore chats with Harvey Pekar Library Statue contributors.
Thank you for the great video, it is a shame as both are such good writers.
Do you still have a discord server?
Strong personalities can tend towards conflict, a tale as old as time.
And likely as not, utterly made up in the minds of one or both (or all) participants.
To the shock and confusion of onlookers.
Alan Moore is a person that people should avoid irritating, and maybe just avoid.
Enjoy his work (or not) and leave it at that.
I just noticed how similar bits of Zenith were to Moore's run on Captain Britain
Didn’t Grant base Mandrakk, the main antagonist of Final Crisis, off of Alan himself and his beliefs.
I do believe that's true.
@@StrangeBrainParts okay
That's hilarious but I thought the antimonitors were editors
I remember that Last Alan Moore interview and the firestorm it set off in the online fandom. I'd been a fan and supporter of Moore prior to it and generally agreed with a lot of his sentiments towards the big 2.
And then i read that interview and Jason Aaron's subsequent response and decided Moore was ab angry old man using his platform and notoriety to lash out at innocent people who merely worked for the companies (aka the actual entities that fucked him over) as if they had a role in fucking him over.
The way he went after the rank and file creatives who work for the Big 2 was extremely misguided and callous. Most of the people he slagged off hadn't even been working in the business at the time DC screwed him over on Watchmen (which understandably seemed to be the main driver of the bile in the interview), so they definitely didn't have a hand in any of the exploitation in his Big 2 contracts (and the carrying out/blame for exploitation occurs at the editorial level and higher, not at the writer/artist level where they have zero authority or control over other creators' contracts, yet he seemed to aim just as much bile at the writers and artists as he did at the corporate entities).
These writers and artists were also being exploited much the same way Moore had been - thats what the Big 2 have always done, it's their MO as profit-driven corporate entities - so attacking fellow professionals being taken advantage of in the same way he was by the same corporations who did it to him because...? Why? They were just trying to make a living by pursuing a dream of working in the comics industry, where its notoriously low paying so you pretty much have to take every gig offered to you if you want to keep a roof over your head? This was a crime in Alan's mind?
Blaming the writers and artists for the exploitative sins of the comic book industry just comes off like a climate change activist blaming the role cars have contributed to the crisis on rank and file UAW members just trying to pay their bills. He had a legitimate gripe and it was with the expoitative system and the corporate entities who profit off it, the fact that he couldn't keep the cross hairs purely on the parties responsible in that interview and had to start attacking people who had nothing to do with his personal exploitation is why no one should have any respect for the man until he he gives some kind of apology.
Nice! Just found this, God bless 🙏 Moore calling Morrison a "Scottish Tribute Band" must surely be here. 😅
In the Cartoonist Kayfabe interview with Frank Quitely, he said that Morrison wrote Pax Americana as a slight against Moore
Yeah I think news wanted these guys to have a bigger feud than it was. When it was just 2 guys who didn’t like one another
Another thing I just want to add is that if we’re on the topic of contrasts, Moore is literally covered in hair while Morrison is completely bald
I wonder where did the rumors that Alan Moore wrote a letter threatening to kill Grant Morrison started from. It's one of those things edgy comic pages put on iceberg countdowns, but a lot of people just take as a genuine fact, completely ignoring the true nature of the feud
The rumors are based on a joke in a letter Moore did send Morrison. Long story very short, Morrison sent letters to Dez Skinn and Alan Moore saying they'd be the perfect person to take over Marvelman / Miracleman. Moore wrote a letter back saying, according to Morrison, "I don't want this to sound like the softly hissed tones of a mafia hitman, but back off." It wasn't an actual death threat of course, just Moore being florid while telling them to eff off, but it's where the rumors came from in the game of telephone.
I think, while Morrison is more persistent in the feud, they do give good start to talk about how Moore's work seems to be less scrutinized than others, considering something like Rorschach being the most popular character of The Watchmen with prominence of sexual violence (with r@pist apologia some could say) being spinned as public perception problem and not oversight of Moore writing. While you can do same with Morrison, it is undeniable that Moore was the setter of grimdark = deep attitude of 90s -00s, which sidelined actually good and pretty dark stories before Watchmen and turned comic industry into edgelord factory, which Morrison really openly hates.
What you are saying is not “undeniable” at all, it is your own personal speculation at best.
People always want to point at specific works or creators and blame them for movements and changes in industry and it is almost never accurate.
I never even knew there was a feud
I wish I could say that I like anything these two have ever written...
I think both are amazing writers and have enjoyed both their works as not only entertaining but intellectually engaging. That being said, while Moore tends to be very cynical in his weakest moments, Morrison on the other hand can go a bit to high concept and high brow in places or sometimes edgy violent for edgy violent's sake. But they are both human after all.
The interview where Morrison pointed out about Moore's proclivities is also where he threw shade at Warren Ellis, without mentioning him.
Both did fantastic stuff. But Moore has nearly no duds, while grant has some real bad work out there
I have always found Morrison has an uncanny inability to finish stories. He sets up some great ideas and worlds but never quite delivers the goods when it comes to getting the whole thing to land properly.
What you said reminded me of his New X-Men run.
@@willamdafoe9300 His New X-Men run in the end was big f... off towards stupid editor.
This is the comic equivalent of Morrissey vs robert smith
It always struck me funny how Moore came first followed by Morrison. Almost like a father and son with Gaiman as the holy ghost.
4:30 interesting though that is, it reminds me as much of General Glory in Justice League (or even Grant Morrison's run on Action Comics) as it reminds me of Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? (which is two Comics, by the way, not three).
Also, that really IS a stretch to claim that quote is about Alan Moore imho. The reader, however, should be the judge, ideally without allowing personal bias to influence that judgement.
OMG THANK YOU I ASKED FOR THIS ONE
As always great job - cerebral, clear-cut, professional.
Alan Moore is the King. Unbeatable. Genius.
I love when two comic book wizards throw magic shit at each other🤣