The Forgotten Failure Of The New Universe
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- Опубликовано: 26 окт 2022
- A look at the origin and history of The New Universe, a line of comics published by Marvel Comics to coincide with and to celebrate the company’s twenty-fifth anniversary in 1986.
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CREDITS:
Written, edited and narrated by Allan Casavettes.
SOURCES:
“Jim Shooter Interview,” by Michael Thomas. Comic Book Resources. October 06, 2000.
www.cbr.com/jim-shooter-inter...
“Mark Gruenwald,” by Dwight Jon Zimmerman. Comics Interview #54. 1988.
New Universe Previews. Marvel Age #47, #48 and #50. 1987.
“Sparks In A Bottle, The Saga Of The New Universe,” by Dan Johnson. Back Issue #34. June 2009.
“Archie Goodwin,” by Dwight Jon Zimmerman. Comics Interview #36. 1986.
“Jim Shooter Fired, Marvel Cites No Reason,” by R. Fiore. The Comics Journal #116. July 1987.
“The Jim Shooter Interview,” by Joe Petrilak. July 22, 1998.
www.valiantarchive.com/valiant...
#BronzeAge #JimShooter #NewUniverse #MarvelComics #JohnByrne #comics #comicbooks 
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There was an element that you left out of your assessment of The New Universe's failure: the distributors H-A-T-E-D it! I attended a meeting of Marvel distributors just before the line was released. The editors of each title gave a presentation about their stories and characters. One of the prominent distributors, Chuck Rozanski, basically said "If the Marvel name wasn't posted on the cover of these books, they wouldn't stand a chance of selling!" Jim Shooter, to his credit, basically responded," These books WILL sell if I have to stand on a street corner and sell them myself!" Basically, Shooter probably wasn't impressed with the clout of the Direct Sales Market at that time, so he sold the titles to newsstands as well, proving his determination to succeed. Unfortunately, it could be argued that Shooter "shot himself in the foot" by doing that and prompted the distributors to under-order the titles and contributed to their failures. I don't know if his successors felt differently after he "left," but I don't recall seeing comics on newsstands as prominently as when Shooter was still at Marvel...
Thank you for adding that! I didn't see any mention of the direct market distributors disliking the concept when I was doing research. Now that you mention it, I could definitely see them wielding their power and expressing disinterest at the new line-up. It goes along very well with Shooter's aggressive campaign of flooding the market with Marvel titles and the disdain that seemed to engender from the smaller publishers.
As for titles disappearing from newsstands: If memory serves, it was the late 80's where the direct market became *the* distribution model for practically everyone. By roughly 1989/90, I don't recall seeing comics anywhere but in specialty stores. Naturally, that would vary from area to area. My point being, I think it was a natural progression to adopt the direct market (which was a guaranteed sale) as opposed to possibly overprinting and taking a guess at what sales would be three months down the line from newsstands.
In other words, I think it was just timing.
@@StrangeBrainParts I remember them still being in convenience stores in the very early '90s. Mainly remember this because,\ that's where I rediscovered the Now Comics "Ralph Snart Adventures" after having bought some of the early issues at a direct market shop in the '80s. I was surprised to find this underground-ish title at 7/11 or whichever convenience store it was.
I don't doubt your memory at all. From what I recall, newsstand distribution wasn't completely phased out until, roughly, 1994 or 1995.
@@StrangeBrainParts You're welcome. I was working for a distributor at the time who didn't want to attend the meeting so he let me go in his place. In Peter David's "But I Digress" columns, he's commented several times on how the Direct Sales market model was a far more attractive alternative to the newsstand model. Essentially it was "Buy 3 bundles, send back 2 unsold bundles" versus "Buy as many bundles as you want at a 60% discount and DON'T RETURN your unsellables." You might want to do a feature about how the Direct Sales model restructured the comic book industry and made a number of products available that would have never been sold at newsstands or even book stores (as one DC Comics insider once said "The book stores had their chance and THEY BLEW IT!") until Barnes & Noble changed their sales model to possibly compete with Amazon. If you're interested, you could also do a feature on how Marvel issued a Second Printing of a few GI Joe titles for a large retailer and CHEESED OFF distributors like Diamond at the same distributors meeting that I attended in '86...
@@noneofyourbusiness4616 I believe a few independent publishers like NOW Comics attempted to issue special comic collections sealed in polyethylene bags at a number of 7-11s around that time to expand their marketing options. I remember a Terminator package on display at one of those stores and I thought "That's odd." So odd that it even had a Comics Code label on it! So you might have been a witness to a failed retail experiment on NOW's part...
I was a big fan of the New Universe back in the day. I was a pretty casual reader at the time, but I was definitely familiar with the different vibes both Marvel and DC characters had. New Universe had a lot of interesting ideas and a more grounded tone that, by todays standards, feels more like pitches for some 'urban fantasy' tv series. But I don't see that as a detriment!
As a D&D kid, I'd gotten into other superhero TTRPG's like Heroes Unlimited and Champions at the time New Universes was happening. So being able to see a superhero continuity happen in real time was very fascinating, and still influences my writing and world continuity design to this day. In later years, of course, I learned about how divisive both the series and Jim Shooter was, and how the New Universe was basically shredded by behind the scenes shenanigans. But I don't think it's a coincidence that I also got in on the ground floor with Valiant, Ultraverse and Comics Greatest World back in the day, again to see how to start a superhero universe from the ground up.
Behind the scenes, Jim Shooter may have been resented for running tight ship in the looney bin that was Comics Publishing and Marvel Comics, but with the consistently strong work that appeared during his tenures in the business, I can't help but think he gets unjustly vilified for having a strong vision about this work and having the tenacity to follow through with it. All we can do is speculate. I wasn't there to see it happen behind the scenes. But while many may complain about the execution of his works, I still feel like I "get" what he was going for creatively and something about that brain space has always appealed to me. So thank for trying to make the New Universe work, Jim Shooter. Despite the industries attempt to bury it, I think it was more influential that anyone wants to admit.
I'm met Jim Shooter at a con last year, really nice guy, and I asked him about being burned in effigy. He told me that the story was true, but it was not the reason he was fired by the higher-ups. I can't remember the reason he gave, but he explained the higher-ups did not care what the people beneath them thought of Shooter.
Do you remember now
@yoyoyiggityyo16 yes. I believe he said it's because the owners of Marvel wanted to sell the company, and him being the editor in chief made it a hard sell because he used company money ethically for the employees (raised page rates, royalties, health benefits, etc). What's funny is when the company was put up for sale, he came 2nd in the bid. He would have come first, but the person who did win was in bed with the owners.
Strikeforce was amazing early on. I didn't realize it was originally envisioned as part of the New Universe.
Jim Shooter, what a legend.
That's very diplomatic.
Great video on the New Universe! I think part of the root problem with the line was a fundamental misunderstanding of what made Marvel a success in the 60s. Marvel did succeed with that 10% edge to DC in regards to realism but that was only in regards to its characters. The heavy use of science to justify the powers and technology was because that was the style of the time. The 50s and 60s were a renaissance period for science fiction and that carried over in so many major pieces of entertainment. Marvel was just riding that wave with the added draw of relatable characters. With the New Universe however, they just hyper focused on the “realism” angle without any sense of direction or purpose. If this was a universe without aliens or super science or magic then what does it have? You’re setting yourself up as a place with “have-nots” instead of “haves.” It’s negative marketing. Aside from the myriad of other problems the books had, maybe they could’ve done better if they promoted what they had to offer as opposed to what they didn’t offer.
"Aside from the myriad of other problems the books had, maybe they could’ve done better if they promoted what they had to offer as opposed to what they didn’t offer."
That is a *very* astute observation.
You have cyberpunk without the cyber.
So punks?
Shooter being the best thing to happen to the company, and being a creative dictator, are not necessarily opposing or contradictory assessments. They just represent the viewpoint of owners/investors and of the creative teams, respectively.
On paper, the New Universe is a cool idea. A shared superhero universe that moves in real-time & have grounded realistic stakes. It's a pity it didn't work out.
Wild Cards did it much better.
@@jackmars931 Probably because Wild Cards started out as prose stories created by science fiction authors that were later adapted into independent comic books. Time could have also been a factor. Maybe the S/F writers didn't have a tight deadline as the Marvel Bullpen did...
@@DavidTSmith-jn5bs I know how WC started out. I was talking about the books, not the comic adaptations. They did a much better job of creating a "shared superhero world" than Marvel did, regardless of the medium.
@@jackmars931 The point that I was making was that the S/F authors had an advantage over the comic book writers and artists. I added the fact that their work was adapted into comic book form while you were comparing apples to oranges. My mistake....
@@DavidTSmith-jn5bs Comparing the development and set up of a cohesive super hero world is apples and apples. But I'm not going to argue with you, I'll just leave you to stew in your own stupidity. Have a nice life.
I fail to see how the man who was responsible for putting Frank Miller on Daredevil and Walt Simonson on Thor pushed either of those creators to “compromise their talent”. Both were bold moves and gave us re-imagined versions of both characters from groundbreaking talents.
I do agree! Shooter was instrumental is supporting both Miller and Simonson. At the same time, creators such as John Byrne, Marvel Wolfman, Gene Colan and Mike Zeck, to name a few, are all on record for disagreeing with Shooter's editorial suggestions/demands. This simply highlights the seemingly contradictory nature of Shooter's tenure. There are those that found his direction and support helpful and those that found it too controlling.
@@StrangeBrainParts Well, and it seemed the stuff that creators were chafing at were some of the elements that we fanboys liked the best - the line-wide continuity and shared history, editorial cohesion, reliable publishing schedules. I remember hearing that a lot of the vitriol came in the latter parts of his tenure, when crossover events would mandate the creative team disrupt their narrative flow to incorporate whatever malarky the editorial staff had agreed on. Granted most of these crossovers were terrible, but it shortly became standard industry (meaning both Marvel and DC) practice.
Interesting to consider that Shooter is largely responsible for me becoming a decade-long dedicated superhero consumer, and then he was largely responsible for me stopping. After literally thousands of floppies churned out from two corporations, I became much more interested in stories that had the creative integrity of self-contained work unfiltered from a single cartoonist.
@@allenrubinstein3696 Yeah that makes it super challenging to read Marvel and DC now. Way too many changes and interruptions to tell a good story.
@@DrAJRobak So don't. There are so many other ways to enjoy fiction. Thiers is fake.
@@allenrubinstein3696 I basically am already following that advice. I think she Hulk the the only big 2 book I’m reading.
Little surprised that Psi-Force did not get much of a mention. Maybe because it was really strong from beginning to end in terms of writing and art. The characters made appearances in Ewing's Ultimates series.
Psi-Force was my favorite NU book, especially early on. I loved “psychic Voltron” as a concept, especially when different characters became part of the mix. It’s too bad all of it was ruined by The Pitt and what came after.
I think we as comic fans can all agree we could use Jim Shooter right about now in modern Marvel comics.
Yeah… but the art of the New Universe is on par with the art today.
@@austinreed7343 no.
@@austinreed7343 They art is way better than that of today.
Where DC comics had Alan Moore. Marvel had Jim Shooter. It was disappointing to see these two be kicked out. Jim Shooter was an amazing person of talent. Along the likes of Alan Moore.
@@jd6473
It really isn’t, when you take ALL of the art of today into account, the better stuff is better than this and the worst stuff is way worse.
I'm glad you touched upon the Valiant Universe. I remember reading a letter in an issue of Comics Buyer's Guide where the writer compared and contrasted the characters of the VU to their predecessors in the NU. The similarities seem to make it appear that Shooter was really keen on the idea of a universe where the laws of physics more closely resembled those of our own reality.
I thought the connection was kind of self-evident, which is why I didn't hammer that point too hard. Also, I didn't want to go back and read all the early Valiant and New Universe titles to actually have the evidence to back it up. Ha ha ha. But, on the surface, they do resemble one another.
Yeah in interviews about Valiant (which Shooter wrote 99% of in the beginning) he talks about his aims to have more science-based worlds and problems, and his occasional frustrations with writers who weren't able to make that work. There is a fun interview out there somewhere where Tom DeFalco explains the hoops he had to go through to convince Shooter that they could have a Robot-like Tank in Kickers Inc #2. Continuity between issues and to a degree, the universe was big with him too.
I really liked a lot of the New Universe titles. In particular I loved DP7, Nightmask, and Spitfire and the Troubleshooters. I also liked Starbrand too.
There were some really cool concepts in The New Universe.
Nice to see someone who has love for Nightmask! That was my first New Universe from a bag of “collectible” comics I got at Town n Country in my little town in Missouri.
Such good memories!!!
I collected DP7 and Spitfire. Started ok,ended horrible
I totally loved this line, and every issue (and the later Quasar issues) are a permanent fixture in my collection
What caught my eye... that Ditko's creation of Speedball was initially for this project.
And, as far as I can see, it isn't being touted as 'from the creator of Spider-Man' or that Speedball was / could have been the Spider-Man of this project. Which seems like a missed opportunity!
Speedball is a really strange comic itself, Steve Ditko doing spider-man type stories in the 80s but making no adjustments to his art to make it seem contemporary.
@@erikwirfs-brock2432 That was a common problem with most his work in Marvel titles. His early work on Hulk and a Captain Mar-Vell book left me with that impression..
My only memory of these books is always seeing them in the quarter bin at my local LSC in the early 90’s, lol. Great channel btw!
Well, that's good timing. Here I was just three days after this video came out looking up what the Marvel New Universe was about. I remembered reading one of the the comics (Spitfire and the Troubleshootsers) as a back-up strip in the back of the UK print of Transformers but couldn't recall much about it.
I always thought the problem with the New Universe is they couldn't figure out how superheroes would change the world around them. once you have superheroes, you really can't have "the world outside your window" and attempts to both keep the realism, and the super heroics were doomed to fail.
Good point! When I look back on the titles I see a lot of them are actually like television proposals - the grounded nature of the concept lends itself to television adaptation. But as you say the fundamental problem (one of them that is) is that the White Event, by its nature, changed the world. Except for the purposes of the editorial direction, it didn't change it one bit!
DP7, Psi-Force, Star Brand, Spitfire, Justice... all of these characters operated below the public and media radar, and so disturbed absolutely nothing in the world order - when Ken Connell is going off to stop terrorists it is all done in stealth, no one knows he exists. And so the status-quo remains static.
The Pitt/Black Event on the other hand was so far off at the other end of the extreme that it destroyed any sense of reality for this universe and its characters.
If only Watchmen came out earlier, they could've ripped off some ideas from there. Like Dr. Manhattan spurring the advancement of technology by synthesizing large amounts of uncommon resources.
@@ThePinkMan Watchmen was one of few comics that really explored the effect of costumed heroes would have on the world around them. The New Universe tried to go in the opposite direction by having the "paranormals" somehow kept secret and the like. Then, suddenly they threw it aside as they had Starbrand destroy Pittsburg
@@DoomMomDot I think the problem is that New Universe writers were still stuck on lot of the older comic tropes.
@@ThePinkMan they didn't stick with one trope tho; they had a competent villain that didn't go for death traps or boring monologues.
Starbrand is an interesting book, at least under Shooter, as it's basically a man laying himself bare for us to see, right there on the page. It's almost overwhelming when you understand the self inserted nature of the main character; almost too revealing. Very peculiar, and some elements of the book clearly carry over to Shooters work on Solar. It is interesting, if nothing else.
DP7 is actually a fairly solid book, too. You could easily see it just being a normal Marvel title (just have the paranormals be mutants or something), and Gruenwald said as much; it would not have been difficult to sheer of it's New Universe trappings.
I had heard the rumor before of Speedball possibly being created for the line, but not Morituri. I suppose that makes some sense, as Morituri is so far removed from anything else Marvel was doing and seems to hardly fit into any part of their publishing ethos.
I agree. DP7 and Shooter's issues of Starbrand were the best of the New Universe. I think the consistency of the Gruenwald and Ryan team helped make it good. I'm usually a fan of Byrne, but his Starbrand was such a jarring departure from what Shooter established, I didn't care for it.
I suspect Morituri was disconnected from the New Universe because of the Horde alien takeover of Earth aspect of the book. It wouldn't have jived in a shared universe with the rest of the NU titles.
@@SamGuthrie1977 Seconded, or thirded I guess. Still have not forgiven Byrne for what he did to Starbrand. DP7 was just solid and likeable all through its run, although I don't love where they went with the characters past the book's end - which again, stems from Byrne's meddling with the line.
@@richmcgee434 Yeah I'm with you. I'm a huge Byrne fan, but I can honestly say that his Star Brand was probably the only thing he's ever done that I patently disliked. Turning Connell into a crazy villain and destroying Pittsburg, just because he didn't like Shooter, felt very petty. I think it makes it worse that the Shooter and Romita Jr issues were so good and established Connell as an interesting character.
Admittedly, the whole time loop concept Byrne injected at the end of Star Brand was kinda interesting. But I thought he explored that concept a lot better in Next Men a few years later, anyway.
@@SamGuthrie1977 Yeah, the loop was definitely better executed in Next Men. Everything Byrne did to Star Brand felt like deliberate sabotage, but that final concept was something he obviously decided deserved another try in a book he cared about.
Honestly can't say I've liked his work much at all past the old X-Men run with Claremont though. His art remains fine, but his plotting reeks of a hatred of what's come before and a desire to make changes solely for the sake of change - and his ego.
@@richmcgee434 Byrne's got a big ego, for sure. But I liked a lot of his post X-Men work. I thought his FF and Superman tapped the fundamental appeal of those characters really well. I was a big fan of his Alpha Flight too. I even kinda like his late 90's stuff that a lot of people are ambivalent about, like Superman Batman: Generations and his Wonder Woman, despite the fact that, like you said, his X-Men era is clearly his prime.
But pass for me on that Star Band run. It wasn't only the story there, his art looked completely phoned-in too; as if his heart wasn't in it at all, and he was just there to stick it to Shooter.
Great video. Missed one detail - Al Ewing also revived Psi Force and Psi Hawk idea relatively recently in his Ultimates run.
I had forgotten that, as well!
Good catch! I missed that completely. And I rather enjoyed that run, too!
Star Brand started out with an interesting concept: an ordinary everyday guy is suddenly gifted with the most powerful weapon in the Universe. He spends the first twelve issues of the series being wishy-washy, unsure of what to do and how to live his life; while events are happening all around him. But that wasn't what the readers wanted. Sales dropped to the point where Marvel decided to revamp the series, and the entire New Universe as a whole. That was when they brought in John Byrne to revamp the New Universe. He did what he always does in his comic books, namely massacre uncountable number of innocent people in an attempt to shake things up. This was known as THE PITT. 😁
Byrne's writing has had a streak of cruelty to it from the very beginning, though it seemed to get worse after he left Fantastic Four and revamped Superman. He had no problem with allowing people to be killed off in his stories in horrifying numbers, usually innocent bystanders. Even in his Superman stories, rarely did an issue of the series take place without the Byrne Body Count growing little by little. I'm long since convinced Byrne was playing some sort of a joke by having Star Brand become a "super hero," and end up being present at a comic book convention when his alien nemesis showed up and blew the entire place up. "Estimated casualties are over five thousand!" screamed the TV news...until two pages later in that issue, when the "second White Event" or "Black Event" occured and left a smoking crater where the city of Pittsburgh had been Hence the title THE PITT. It was at this point that I decided to stop reading John Byrne's stories in general.
Update: Out of curiosity, I looked on Google for some commentary on the New Universe. CBR (Comic Book Review) had an article stating "11 Reasons Why The New Universe Failed." Halfway through this article was this little tidbit: "But Shooter's reputation didn't exactly help the [New Universe] project; he was hated by many people inside Marvel. After he was fired, Marvel artist and writer John Byrne held a party at his house where disgruntled employees literally burned Shooter in effigy, stuffing the dummy with unsold New Universe comic books. Byrne also used 'Star Brand' to destroy Shooter's beloved Pittsburgh."
Fair points.
I actually loved the New Universe. There was a very science fiction feel to the whole thing. I thought it was wonderful. You can see how Shooter used similar concepts for a science fiction super hero universe where people age in real time in his Valiant and Broadway Comics line. Also John Byrne's Next Men had similar concepts.
The only titles I have missing issues from are Merc, PSI Force and some later issues of Justice.
It's a great book through issue 7, after Shooter there aren't that many great moments in my opinion. The editors have said later that the Pitt was not an jab at Shooter, but it's too perfect to not be at least somewhat intended.
I've really been enjoying the new universe though, a friend and I are reading it chronologically and podcast reviewing each issue. It's been a lot of fun so far, with not as many "dud" issues as I would ahve thought (we are getting to the issue #9's)
I cut that bit (the Shooter effigy) of the video down to its core because I couldn't find really solid sources of information about it. Although, I do believe the party occurred before Shooter was fired? Honestly, I read that it happened before and after a few times. I went with before because I believe Mark Gruenwald said it happened before the firing. (If memory serves.)
I didn't read everything. I pretty much skimmed the books to get a good feel for direction and story and all that. Aside from the first few issues of some books, once a creative settled in they weren't too bad.
I hope you continue to enjoy reviewing them. Do The Pitt, The Draft and The War, too. You might as well be complete. :)
Tu comentario es interesante y tienes un punto Byrne mata extras por montones como en la mayoría de las películas de acción los 80s y 90s (Incluso las de ahora) pero rara vez esas muertes eran gratuitas. En todo caso de Pitt deja mucho que desear y si la historia de la quema del monigote es verdad escogió una forma muy poco profesional y mezquina de vengarse.
Always a pleasure to be notified with new content from this amazing channel
This universe was like a proto valiant universe.
I agree. Sci fi with characters that aged in real time. Broadway Comics had similar ideas too.
It's still bizarre to me that Shooter thought to sell this and basically nothing else (with an exception of covers) as 25th anniversary. Imagine you have a birthday and somebody creates completely different human being as a gift and than doesn't even give it to you. Also, Kickers Inc. is something that should be in third wave of titles, not at the launch of new line.
I tried to read these titles recently and while some titles were interesting (Archie Goodwin did good job on Psi Force), they felt like nobody wanted to write them.
I think nobody wanted to write them because Marvel didn't want to pay them. Reading an interview with Shooter years ago, he said their original budget was $2 million. After a while, the owners of the company told him to only spend $1 million. Later, they told him only spend $500,000. Then they asked him how much money had they spent up to that point, which was $50,000, and they told him to not spend any more. So he couldn't attract the high quality creators and writers that he had wanted, they had to make do with artists just starting out that would work for low pay and whatever creators would sign on. Hence the disjointed nature of the New Universe. I remember some very iffy artwork in some books (I'm pointing at you, Justice), but then there were some really well-drawn titles. It's just a shame that Marvel couldn't manage more than a half-hearted attempt at creating a new shared universe.
Both of the Big Two have had multiple imprints fail because ultimately they end up leeching talent and sales from the main line. The only notable exceptions were Epic and Vertigo, which succeeded by targeting a mostly different audience from traditional comics readers and often a very different talent pool of creators, too.
True, it almost felt like a knock off of the big two but was created by one.
I've not forgotten them because I'm reminded every time I look in the 50 cent bins....there they are!
Glad you're back up and running! The New Universe was a thing I was only peripherally aware of via that iconic ad featuring the white event bolt. This is the most informative thing I've encountered about it in the almost 40 years (!) since, and I'm grateful to finally have that bit of industry lore laid out and hole in my knowledge filled.
I hope you have a deep dive on the professional history of Jim Shooter on the docket. In recent years a fuller and less creator-based propagandized picture of the man has slowly been revealed, so it'd be cool to get as much of the whole story as possible from as thorough and even handed historian as yourself.
Finally a new video! Thanks for constantly putting up new content that’s always great and always covering comics I haven’t read.
Thanks for dropping by and watching!
If you're interested in this line, Star Brand and DP7 were the best titles. I think they are worth reading.
I was 13 years old when New Universe launched and I remember standing in line to buy a copy of every #1. Since I hadn't experienced many new comic launches, I was convinced that these #1 issues were going to be worth a fortune in short order. I knew nothing of the creators, politics, or mandates going on behind the scenes, I only knew the advertisements I'd seen in other Marvel books. After the 2nd issues came out, I whittled it down to only 2 or 3 that I wanted to keep following, but didn't go beyond #7 with anything. These days, I barely remember any of the content or characters at all except for a scene here and there. I sometimes wonder if this might be worth revisiting.
Star Brand is still one of my favorite characters. I also liked PSI Force, and Spitfire, and still have all of my New Universe comics.
Good stuff as always dude. Really informative 👍
I’d be down to read these.
I was a kid when the New Universe came out and was very hyped for it. It was cool getting in in the ground floor of a new line of comics. Me, my brother, and a bunch of our friends couldn’t wait to get them when they came out. I liked Starbrand and Nightmask. My brother like Spitfire and the trouble shooters and Kickers inc. A friend of mine was into Merc and Justice and Psy Force. I even have the Starbrand tattooed on my left shoulder. That’s how much fun the NU concept was to me. But, alas, it did fall apart fairly quickly for all of us. Probably with that first year. Mainly when the creative talent that started the books left the books as you mentioned. Still, I loved the concept and wished the Warren Ellis reboot had been able to be fully fleshed out and explored. Sure, Hickman brought in the concept into his Avengers run but it wasn’t the same to honest. Anyway, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for the NU. What’s funny is the failure of the NU is partly why I avoided the Ultimate line when it started. I figured it would fall apart after a year. Boy was I wrong.
Great great work ! I appreciate this so much.
Thanks for mentioning CrossGen too; that was a wild ride!
Another fantastic video!
I was also a huge fan of New Universe, especially Star Brand - it felt like I was on the ground floor of so,etching cool and new.
And then the Pitt happened, and the rest was a ***ing mess.
Though to be fair, in hind sight, it’s probably what would happen if supers suddenly showed up in real life: whole world would probably crash and burn in a year 😂
Just another reminder. Comic books forget NOTHING.
All of these characters have, are and will come back the second any writer with a good idea gets half a chance.
I know for instance that Starbrand and Nightmask came roaring back rather recently.
Don't think of the New Universe as a failure. Think of it as a primordial soup that will always produce sparks of life.
Marvel is mythology. And mythology always comes back around.
With the current rot that's a part of the writing crew of Marvel as well as Disney, I don't think so in my opinion.
I was a big fan of Justice. I recently completed my run of Psi-Force, which crossed over directly with Justice, and the "realism" felt like a detraction from that title.
The New Universe was obviously the forerunner to the original Valiant. I always wondered how that would've turned out if Shooter hadn't been ousted from Valiant.
Shooter had some...interesting ideas in what turned out to be his closing months at Marvel. Replacing all the heroes with new people and such. As current day sales prove, that wouldn't have worked. Still, creating an all new universe from the ground up is a Herculean task at the best of times and when your budget is slashed overnight, it's darn near impossible! I wonder why they still tried to push ahead with this once that happened?
Great video! Thanks for the info.
I actually loved the New Universe, especially D.P.7, Nightmask, and Star Brand.
I enjoyed DP7! Would make a good TV series.
People would think it was a knockoff Doom Patrol if they made it now.
Or X-Men...which was the comparison made at the time.
si
It was called Misfits of Science, and it was lovely. Also brief. :)
@@FerretPirate I loved Misfits of Science as a child but I tried watching it not too long ago and found it to be unwatchable.
I loved star brand in the early issues. It was unsure of itself but the concept had so much potential. I think the DP7 the Pitt and star brand would make great TV shows.
I read the New Universe comics until the bitter end. It was much better after they chopped the line in half and made the overarching storyline more concise.
Agreed.
Glad to see you back. Great presentation as always, love this channel's aesthetic
I read these when they were new. Loved Starbrand, Justice, and DP7. I actually just bought and am rereading DP7 in TPB. But definitely was Proto-Valiant.
Wish they'd do the whole series
I completely forgot about this. I remember seeing the ads and not finding the look and design of the characters very appealing.
I loved DP7 back in the day
I was a senior in HS and was slowly moving from Marvel to DC. I was also buying Eclipse and other indie comics, my comic dollar was stretched to the limit and nothing in the NU (except for the first few issues of Star-Brand) was interesting enough to make me want to drop current titles. When I saw the title Kickers Inc it made me believe the NU was not serious.
DP7 and Starbrand were the best of line, in my opinion. The first 6 issues of Spitfire were solid, and PSI Force would have been good but the inconsistency of constantly changing creative teams hurt it. Changing creative teams seemed to be standard for the New Universe and I think that hurt it as much anything. Justice, for example, reads like an entirely different title altogether after Peter David takes over, essentially ignoring all of the first year of the book. I always felt like they put all their effort into the initial concepts, but then seemed noncommittal about executing them in any consistent way.
I tend to be dismissive of complaints about Jim Shooter, especially from entitled creators who are always saying they aren't given enough creative freedom. Jim was a working class guy who'd been in the business since he was 13. He turned Marvel Comics around by running it like a respectable business; expecting books to be published on time, continuity to be respected, and storytelling to be clear and concise. He also went to bat for his creators, getting them increases in pay, more benefits, and he established the Epic Imprint so they could own their own creations. There were too many seminal runs published under his tenure, and sales were too high, for me to believe he was some sort of tyrant doing something wrong.
Agree one hundred percent.
David doesn't ignore Justice's first year. It's a pivotal part of the character's arc: from his emergence as a Dexter-ish serial killer, and later a legal enforcer, to cope with his justice warrior persona.
Only five issues into the reboot and the justice warrior returns, through Tensen's issues of powerless. With that re-awakening of the old, comes the world of Damon Conquest for at least two issues.
Under David and Weeks, the new version is an ongoing conflict between Justice 1.0 and the world outside your window as Tensen struggles to find purpose and peace. In this way it mirrors the war between Winter and Spring.
@@AndrewLuke I get what you're saying. I suppose David didn't entirely ignore the beginning, but he did change the initial concept of Justice being an off-world alien to a human.
That was my point about all the New Universe titles. I thought the constantly changing creative teams and jarring direction changes in almost all of them generally hurt the line. DP7 was the only one that had consistent creators with the same direction and feel throughout the whole run.
@@SamGuthrie1977 I think your view of Justice is the general consensus on the book's structure. There's many reasons, outside of the story, which support that.
From Justice #15 (aka 2.0) you've stable creatives for more than three issues. You've got new in-house approaches to New U editorial including copy-writing and graphic design. Then fresh paper stock and full bleed. All these detract from the subtext, that, this is the same story. (Even tho like Moore's Swamp Thing it's a retcon.)
DP7 did retain it's creators throughout the run, but I found the direction quite shaky after the initial Clinic storyline. (Wasn't that classic fun!) Less shaky with the other books. They got creators who stayed through year 2 to year 3. A much over-looked one is Fabian Nicieza's Psi-Force (#15-#32) There were two or three artists on that run, but it's distinctive, organic and a great read. If you find it, snap it up! Gripping thoughtcomics!
Agreed. A great deal of the resentment toward Shooter stems from his demanding that deadlines be met. It's a sharp contrast from the way things run at the Big Two these days, and it's been getting worse for the last twenty years. No one knows how to herd the cats any more.
Excellent work as always! You always seem to hit my personal sweet spot. Picked up Star Brand #14 last week in a quarter bin… one of the weirdest Byrne issues I’ve ever read…
The good parts of Star Brand are all before Byrne got his hands on it. DP7 is arguably the best (and most consistent) book in the line overall, but Star Brand's early run is very good too.
Whats funny is guys like Byrne who hated Shooter did the best work of his entire career under him. Some of the best runs in Marvel history came out under Shooter.
Very true! Life/business is so very complicated.
Because basically Shooter knows that creativity needs some degree of discipline when you have to create fictional universes, expecially if many different people contributes at once.
I agree. One of the reasons Marvel went so off the rails for a lot of people was guys like Morrison and Bendis really had no editors to keep them in check and were allowed to just do what they wanted regardless of the long term damage the stories might have been creating. Really most editors at Marvel even today are just empty chairs.
@@legionkahn Hell yes…and it continues to this day. The writers have destroyed X Men and the editors are afraid to do anything lest they be called a racists/homophobe/sexist
I think were three major problems with the New Universe: 1. Inferior talent, compared to DC's having John Byrne on Superman, Frank Miller on DARK KNIGHT and BATMAN: YEAR ONE. Alan Moore on WATCHMEN, etc. 2. Recycled characters. Many of the New Universe's character felt like dollar store takeoffs of established characters: Star Brand for Green Lantern and Justice for Judge Dreed, for example. 3. And overcrowded market. The year 1986 was the year of the black-and-white boom (which quickly turned into a bust) and Marvel was putting a crapton of new titles at the same time. Something had to give.
To me, the mid-80s were the golden age of comics, soo many amazing titles both independent and major published, not to mention foreign graphic novels began appearing not just in comic specialty shops, but Walden Books and Barnes & Noble. By the early 1990s it all came crashing down. At that point I remember shifting to exclusively buying independently published graphic novels.
actually you hit it. Shooter said in a later interview that new universe was gonna be mainly marvel's run on DC heroes. it's just that the idea got reworked so much that starbrand (green lantern) was the only one left that resembled the orig plan.
Blows my mind... So many covers of comics I own flashed on the screen... And sadly no where near as many as I wish!
I just found this channel and subscribed! Can't wait to see what's on here!
Awesome and thanks! I hope you find a fair amount to keep your attention. :)
Thanks for this! Only discovered your channel recently and had no idea if you were still doing these retrospective or not. Glad to see you are.
Glad to have you around. I do have more retrospectives planned, so I got you covered there.
@@StrangeBrainParts Really loved your overview of Flex Mentallo BTW, made me go reread it. Would love to see your take on some of the original Valiant titles as opposed to just the universe (but that too).
Thank you. Oddly, that's one (Flex Mentallo) I'd like to remake and add more to it. But, ahh, so many other topics to get to first.
I'd say you have to judge the New Universe in the context of its times. I was heavily into comics back then. I've always thought of the mid 80s as the Alan Moore era. Swamp Thing and Miracleman were a breath of fresh air. Lots of Marvel stalwarts had moved over to DC over the first few years of the 80s and it livened some DC books up. The indie comics that existed then gave us more variety than we'd had in years. When the New Universe arrived, it was a flop. There was nothing fresh about it. In a comics world of many flavors, the New Universe gave us melted vanilla ice cream. So disappointing.
Mark Gruenwald is one the greatest! Especially considering this situation from future perspective and his dedication to the craft
Great episode as always. Still hoping you will talk about elfquest one day
I swear I have a mostly finished script about Elfquest. I paused on it because I have yet to read its conclusion.
A bunch of the new universe characters were used in the 2015 secret wars tie-in mini series "squadron sinister" . Very fun comic, i highly recommend it
This was a great video on new universe I heard about it but I've never got the full depth of it you did a good job I almost want to go and read it and I love the fact that you did the until next time this episode
It had to make its return!
@@StrangeBrainParts Well met
Been waiting for somebody to make a video about this for like 3 years. It's like a black hole of comics history in terms of what people actually talk about or gets called backs. Which is weird because anybody who has collected comics probably has a ton of new universe titles just because they're in every quarter bin. The amount of information on some of these titles is next to nothing. It's like lost media but the media is ubiquitous because they printed so many and they're worth next to nothing
I just love the intros to your videos!
You are the comic book scholar! It is nourishment for my soul. 🙂
Too bad the new universe didn't last. I first discovered these comics at a candy store near my elementary school (after the New Universe had long been over)
I don't understand how this channel still only has 24k subscribers.
In part it's because I'm not shouting SUBSCRIBE in every video and believe those that like what I do will do the right thing. Another is because the RUclips algorithm *completely* ignores this channel. It gets very little exposure, despite being in existence and consistently updated for the last five years.
@@StrangeBrainParts That's a shame, maybe it's got something to do with the variety of comics you cover and not just superhero stuff, I don't know but personally that's the reason why I appreciate your channel so much. Keep up the good stuff.
Thank you! I hope I can continue to maintain that level of appreciation for many years.
Yes, objectively, you are also right. I don't exclusively focus on superhero stuff, or hot topics such as forthcoming movies or TV shows. So, that definitely plays a part.
Thanks for another great video! I have a friend who still has a soft spot for this line. I’m glad you mentioned Malibu at the end, that was my personal comics obsession. Lol I can’t believe the New Universe has found its way into Marvel continuity but the Ultraverse still hasn’t! I would love to see you tackle that often-overlooked comics line. :) Thanks again for everything!
The history of Malibu/Ultraverse is partially written! There's a lot of history in that story and I definitely want to get to it soon rather than later.
I read a few of the New Universe titles, but "Psi Force" was the one I liked best and still revisit every few years.
As for what did it in, I noticed one annoying thread throughout all of the titles I read -- from Psi Force, to Star Brand, to DP7 -- all of the characters HATED their powers and wanted to get rid of them! But the books are being marketed to an audience of readers whose ultimate dream is to have superpowers! It was tough to relate to characters who were constantly whining about the thing all of us comic fans DREAMED about :D
Yes, I bought the New Universe being a loyal Marvel reader and MMMS member. I kept waiting for something interesting to happen and found the stories and art tedious. I never cared for Shooter's mandate that all the stories needed to be self-contained into a single issue; I felt this removed the nuances and characterization that made Marvel books so endearing and relatable. I recall one FF panel by Jack Kirby of Reed and Sue sitting at a table with a cup of coffee, discussing the upcoming battle with Dr. Doom. It was so relatable as watching my parents sit down and discuss making a house payment. What Shooters Universe lacked was an organic feel to it. The above FF scene was written and drawn by people that experienced such a moment with their spouses.
PS. Am I the only one thinking Jim Shooter looks like Bizzaro Superman going for a job interview in the photograph?
Good stuff!
I remember seeing those comics and not being remotely interested purely because I had no idea what it was. Perhaps if they at least advertised it in the regular Marvel comics it could have been better..? That and more stable team working on them - with a decent budget of course.
That being said it's ironical that it was John Byrne's work that drawn me to the comics. And I really really liked it then.
Oh and about Jim Shooter: controversial as he was to me he was the best thing to ever have happened to Marvel as a whole. Not great for artists - writers included - but very very good for the stories and to us readers by extent.
I usually say that he was to Marvel what Steve Jobs was to early days Apple: helped the company to be the best out there as well as making himself the most hated person in the business.
This is really cool and interesting. Thanks for talking about it. I was wondering where star brand came from. 👍👍👍😁
Thanks for watching!
As a pre-teen(at the time)comics lover Marvel kid, I know I personally hated all the New Universe titles. Not a single one of them held my interest or inspired ideas of my own. I loved to draw the X-Men and Daredevil and had aspirations to be a comic penciler(which I actually did for a few years) so comics that captured my imagination were like gold to me. Ironically, I met both Jim Shooter and John Byrne on separate occasions as a youth. Jim was gracious and like a mentor the second he saw my work. Provided me with advice and cards of people to send work to once I upped my chops. Conversely, I met my hero John Byrne at a con in the 80s. I was about thirteen and waiting in line for his autograph or sketch. When my turn came up, he decided to ignore me and glad hand some guy who walked up to make some original art deal. I get it, but Byrne looked over at me as I was not getting the hint and told me to “F@ck Off.” This grown man told this kid who worshipped the ground he walked on to Eff off. Great. What an icon. I walked away pretty confused until a hand gently touched my shoulder and this bear of a guy asked me to come sit with him. He and I drew all day long as people came up to him for autographs and sketches. He was the sweetest guy to me and to everyone. He drew the most awesome drawing for me at the end of the day. He taught me so much that afternoon. About comic illustration and ego and how to be kind to people. His name? George Perez. I guess it’s true what they say…never meet your heroes. I guess the point is the New Universe and John Byrne both equally sucked…lol.
This story is awesome
Great video
Also: Marvel UK, Ultimate Marvel, Marvel 2099, Marvel Mangaverse, and Shadowline/Epic Comics. Marvel made a number of efforts to create new IP. Strikeforce Morituri also comes to mind.
My god!! I love the New Universe and EPIC Marvel series. Thanks for sharing and making this episode.
I think I gave PSI Force or Star Brand a try, can't quite remember. Those covers looked absolutely dismal on the spinner racks!!
Interesting that Jim Shooter hated the way that DC editor Mort Weisinger treated him and other writers and artists. But, when in power, Shooter acted pretty much the way Weisinger had.
Wow... I started reading comics regularly around the time when SM 2099 began to be published, I always wondered who the hell that Nick Prophet character was, he seemed so damn random and both important and unimportant at the same time....and now I finally have an answer, amazing! haha Very interesting story about the New Universe, great content
If I remember right, Peter David even wrote a novel with Justice/Tensen/Net prophet as a main character
@@DrAJRobak ah cool, I wasn't aware
DP-7 was awesome! Unfortunately, today the title sounds like the precursor to Backdoor babies 9. 🤣🤣🤣
Lol! 😂 Yeah the name couldn't be taken seriously today. Like the old sword and sorcery comic book Thongorr. It was a great Conan the Barbarian and Red Sonja: She-Devil With A Sword spin-off comic from the late 1970s to the early 1980s. But that name would make people laugh their asses off, lol! 🤣
I love this review of The New Universe! well done!
I hope you get the chance to review Impact Comics.
Seeing the photo of Jim Shooter suggests there was a subtle contribution to the visual design of Jigsaw.
Night mask looks interesting
Can you maybe do a follow up video on the individual titles
D.P. 7 and Starbrand remain my favorite titles. Used to enjoy Psi-Force a bit when I was a teen, but doesn't stand the test of time quite as well.
New Universe was ahead of its time.
I read exactly one issue of New Universe: an issue of _Spitfire._ I skimmed the wiki page, and I note that the title changed mid-series, so I’m just going to use the part that remained the same.
And I think, years later, it was some sort of transitional issue. Someone had murdered the tech team who had mechanically augmented specialties, and the young woman nicknamed Spitfire was imprisoned in a dark room being harassed by a huge lumbering monster of a man named Brick as a test by some disembodied voice.
I thought the issue was at least interesting, and had a kind of adult feel-not like those dubious bookstores, but there was a feeling of reality, that I didn’t see in a lot of comics I had read up to that time. In all honesty, I don’t think I’d seen a New Universe comic on a spinner rack before or since (at least during those years, and honestly I’ve waaaay moved on)-I don’t think they were getting to the spinner racks at the local drug stores! Somehow this issue made it.
I’ve used the term “Interesting Failure” for a work that has good hooks, but the execution didn’t work. Based on what I read in that issue long ago, I’d call it an Interesting Failure.
Postscript: Ever consider a video covering the history of !-mpact comics? (Spelled this way because of spell check and auto-formatting-sorry!)
Yes, I have! I actually liked !mpact back in the day. I've been kind of wary to go back and re-read them in case they aren't as good as I recall. Also, I'm not sure why it didn't last...so that's something I'd need to research. Which is incentive. :)
@@StrangeBrainParts As someone who keeps liking comic lines that fail, such as New Universe, 2099, and !mapct, I also would be interested in your take on !mapct.
i loved dp7 back in the day
Was Shooter an authoritative, no nonsense leader who was a hard ass? Yes. But Marvel was in a rough spot and sailing adrift because it had no real leadership. It had some major issues. Marvel needed that kind of leader to get it on track and help it live to its full potential. It didn't make him the most popular, but popularity doesn't lead to a good business.
Kid me loved DP7 the most.To this day Randys powers were some of the most unique I have come across.Psiforce was cool too.I was sad to see them go.
The Universe that failed twice.
A universe so nice it failed twice.
Star Brand, drawn to resemble Luke Skywalker.
DC , with their 1986 mini series Legends, made a Star Brand parody named Sun Spot, who met an embarrassing defeat from Green Lantern Guy Gardner! It was drawn by John Byrne!
I remember my brother buying a couple of the books. Spitfire and the Troubleshooters looked like it was the coolest one back then. Being a Valiant fan, I'll probably check out some of the other titles as well.
I recently found a couple of issues of JUSTICE drawing by Keith Giffen, those are really cool.
I've been waiting for years for someone to do a video about the failure of the New Universe.
Any chance of doing a video about the failure of the Inhumans during their huge push in Marvel Comics
This is an awesome video for a line that few people probably still care about or even remember.
And if anyone actually read it and liked it, I am glad you did -- at least someone like it. :)
But compared to all the other things going on the actual Marvel Universe in the 80s: from Cloak & Dagger and other min-Series, Spidey being like a dozen of his own comics, Clairmont and Byrne's X-Men being the best that comic has ever been, to Alpha Flight, and Wolverine starting to become popular, Miller's Daredevil, Walt Simonson's Thor, and then eventually Peter Davidson's Hulk, etc. -- this New Universe stuff was like a really lame shared universe from an unheard of company just starting with some pretty bland new heroes.
Now some actual independent companies launched some pretty cool stuff -- from American Flagg, Nexus, and Mage to TMNT to the Tick!
But this "New Universe" seems like it was from an *alternate* universe than our own -- it's hard for my mind to equate it to MARVEL Comics -- and I was there when they were getting published. :)
I liked it. It was something different. Followed it the entire way through.
Even to Quasar and Starblast!
I liked the New Universe at its start; now I know that it was under Shooter that it was to my liking and under Byrne that I disliked it. Interesting, since Byrne's DC post-Crisis work I disliked so much that after a decade and a half of always getting at least 1 Superman title per release (sometimes all the ones on the stand, including any slight cameos) I stopped buying or even reading about the character. Even more than the actual works themselves, I liked the potential the New Universe had. The same potential Valient got closer to in many ways, before also changing for the worse to my tastes. Shooter again did well and even closer with The Good Guys' and much of that universe before that also met an untily demish two issues into Schism. What a shame; the New Universe didn't get the proper backing it deserved; it might very well have been exactly the groundbreaking milestone that Shooter envisioned. And who knows, we might be over a decade into an MCU where Justice, DP7 and Starbrand are the household names?
Awesome vid. I’ve never really read a lot of western comics, but I found out about the New Universe after reading Spider-Man 2099 (because of spiderverse lol) and getting curious on who the Net Prophet guy was.
Really interesting hearing about all the stuff happening behind the scenes. Burning an effigy is actually crazy lol
DP7 was my favorite
That was the best comic book story out of all of them. It also was the best team with the best characters. They even had the best super powers. The only real mistake that they had made with that cool concept was taking the great premise of that sci-fi story so far like they did, and then ending it in such an anticlimactic way due to all of the other titles having horribly executed outcomes.
i still have all of my Jvstice books.
One of the things I appreciate about the New Universe is the small number of titles compared to the normal Marvel Universe. In order to follow something like Secret Wars you would have had to buy all these different comic titles. It didn't matter if you liked those characters or comics. Want to follow the story? Buy ALL the comics! ugh. But, with NU you could follow everything that was going on without having to buy 20 different titles, especially after everything got paired down to just four books. I think if the budget hadn't gotten blown up, and they'd been able to put some veteran talent on it, the project could have succeeded. Or, at least lasted somewhat longer. There were some solid characters and titles. Starbrand, DP7, and Justice were the best of the bunch imo. Some of the character's stories ended up going some interesting directions, but some of the others felt rushed and half assed, like nobody really knew what to do with them.