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The retired US meditation teacher Adyashanti, originally in the Zen tradition, is very skilled at describing the phenomenology of meditation and different stages of awakening, as well as the risks and needs for integration. His teaching is secular in orientation and his talks include different ideas and traditions such as Jung and Christianity. He would be a great guest if this series goes to non-academics in differention traditions, as seems very adjacent to this space but from a personal practice perspective.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Buddha taught Jhana as an absorptive state to laypeople, generally. As someone who experienced several years of recovering from “Rabbit Hole Metaphysics”, I think many, at least Western people, are not psychologically prepared or culturally supported enough to experience the phenomenological deconstruction of their faculties and land wisely and healthfully. Thank you for highlighting this challenge.
Great to hear all four of you discuss this, and I loved the discussion around nested generative models. I am very much looking forward to hearing more from you all, particularly on the ethos scaffolding that can help us avoid the "bad bootstrapping" Marc alluded to. I'm excited to see Jonas' future work with Dr. Karl Friston and Dr. Michael Lifshitz. I also believe, as Jonas concluded, that an optimal cognitive stance can be pursued via a state of play. How and when do we expose ourselves to states of epistemic vulnerability within a sapiential framing to avoid known and unknown dangers, including fool's errands?
@@TheVeganVicar I am supporter for Dr.Vervaeke and his felllows. The meditation mentioning at the reply is to report declensive usage for meditation, which you wrongly declared as vegan. The thing is referential to people who really give meditational approach, as I have been supporting Dr.Vervaeke.
@@TheVeganVicar The modern Korean transformation in all areas of community is not to the spirituality but persecutive mechanisms, abusing religious term to the purpose. They are not Buddhists, and scholars who had rescue purposiveness did not want to participate. This is similarly when Jungian scholars are on pressure by Freudian followers, extended to religious area. The meditation is traditionally and rationally for 무아지경 無我之境, the ontological politics Buddhist's teachings are abused and for power games of this sort. When Dr.Peterson's theory on political correctness is introduced, some people also say harsh ontological shift in modern Korea, blamed religious rules, I suppose meditation reception is Korea is what we have to consider seriously when we think about Canadian people's sense too. (1) Korean people are immigrated to Canada and their experiences began in Korean cultures (2) Korean people's cultural thing such as dramas are known to international people too (3) Harsh on-air in paricularity of Korean entertainment community made many counteropinions on various cultural areas but not now (!!) (4) The influences forced out other community areas, including Buddhist practice especially on newer generation's morality These are only named a few, this is also determinative factor why some people are reluctance to have meditation. People who have relunctant have their background experiences of complexity so I reported it, I think my reply is referential to understand around meditation and people's various receptions.
@@TheVeganVicar Dr.Peterson's view on religion is what many people like when political correctness is introduced, because people can know everything in society are connected in inferential level, I also like the view too. Dr.Vervaeke is also scholar I have revere for it.
Great convo! John, you really need to get Ruben involved with this conversation. The end of this convo leads directly into my work on “epistemic hygiene” and the reason I’ve decided to do clinical first. Especially relevant to the Australian context here where psychedelic therapy is going full-mainstream. Hope you’re happy and well and excited for sabbatical. 🙏🏽❤️🎉💋 Happy NY.
16:05 How I make sense of this is the form of the Jhana in the absorbed state then becomes the Bodhisattva you entrust with organizing the information you perceive after the reemergence is complete.
i read awakening from the meaning crisis. Phenomenal. Now i can cite this in my seminar works finally. But when is your book with greg henriques coming out? Cant wait. Happy new year to you all.
Really great, (Nice to put a face on Rick.) discussion. Nice to see more data on what is going on in these states (there was a study recently that compared Zen and Vajrayana practices which I have lost, it might not have been printed yet, I will ask). One thing that was not mentioned is that once you get to level 4 you get a non sensory manifestation of light, sound (various), and or smell (roses) before what I can only describe as falling off the seat/ground of the body, like mind detaching into an entirely non physical, non sensory state of presence. Regarding insight, in Vajrayana we call that hearing the "secret Lama", in theosophy this is "Higher Self" or the "Guardian Angel". So to Rick I would say that whether you are a Christian or a Buddhist depending on the practice both are experiencing the same thing, but as was mentioned our cultural baggage influences the interpretation. I would agree on the dangers of these practices being distributed without a framework, I find Sam Harris and his ilk very dangerous in this, the atheistic disregard of the higher practices and the systems that guide them. Very easy to turn this into a drug. Also I will note that what was mentioned about the narrowing of response has two aspects depending on how far you go; not being startled by a car backfiring is interesting and pleasant, but when you start being disassociated from the world you run into problems that perhaps a monk might not have a problem with, but going to work as a lay person can be problematic. On a final note is just to mentioned that these practices come with the sidhas, tummo, healing, telepathy, emitting light, becoming translucent, remote viewing, seeing the dead, levitation, emitting the smell of roses, etc. all of which have been reported by both Christian Saints and Yogis. I know that this is not something that western academics like to talk about but it comes with the territory, it would be interesting to see more of this looked at seriously. There has been a recent study on the Rainbow Body begun at the request of the Dalai Lama. Cheers
dhamma: the Pāli cognate of “dharma”. However, in this case, it invariably refers to the teachings of Gautama Buddha, rather than the eternal law (“sanātana dharma”, in Sanskrit). In this book, it is used in the former sense, that is, of “holy and righteous concepts and deeds”. Therefore, the term “Buddhist dhamma/dharma” is somewhat nonsensical, since dhamma/dharma is fundamentally non-sectarian. Despite being the most atheistic human being to have ever existed, I often PRAY that I am not in the process of consuming a meal whenever I hear a Buddhist monk or lay teacher referring to his or her lecture as being a “dhamma talk”. If you have carefully read the entirety of this Holy Scripture, “F.I.S.H”, and you have listened to many Buddhist sermons, you may have already guessed the reason for my fervent prayer. This is because the assertion that the overwhelming majority of Buddhist monks are teaching authentic dharma, is so excruciatingly cringe-worthy and laughable, I am genuinely fearful of choking on my food upon hearing such silly claims! First of all, the founder of Buddhism himself, Siddhārtha Gautama was hardly a paragon of virtue, having abandoned his family in order to become a mendicant monk, being an animal-abusing carnist, and encouraging females to become loose women (so-called “nuns”). In my half a century of life, I have only ever encountered one or two Buddhists who adhered to (actual) dharma, so in that sense, they were factually SUPERIOR to Gautama himself! For instance, the abbot of the largest Buddhist society in my homeland, Australia, believes that it is dharmic (legitimate) for men to insert their reproductive organs inside the faeces holes of other men, and of course, like his idol, Gautama, he is a murderer of poor, innocent, defenceless animals, and a filthy feminist. Furthermore, despite being an indigenous Englishman, and a graduate of one of the most prestigious universities on earth, University of Cambridge, he is entirely unable to coherently speak his native tongue! Should not a supposed “spiritual leader” be an exemplar in at least his own language? Of course, no human being (including so-called “Avatars”) who has ever lived was morally perfect, but those who claim to be spiritual masters ought to be beyond reproach in respect to their own ethical practices. In the aforementioned case, Gautama should have returned to his family as soon as he understood the immorality of his actions, just as I, when I began adhering to dharma, repaid two persons from whom I had stolen goods and cash. Furthermore, assuming that Gautama was really a carnist (and knowing the typical diet of Bhārata, it would be safe to assume that he was at LEAST a lacto-vegetarian, and therefore an animal-abusing criminal), he was certainly sufficiently intelligent to understand that it is unnatural for an adult human to suckle the teats of a cow or a goat, and that human beings are fully herbivorous. Otherwise, how could he possibly be considered a member of the priestly class of society (“brāhmaṇa”, in Sanskrit) if he was not able to even comprehend some of the most basic facts of life? Make no mistake, carnism (see that entry in this Glossary) is a truly abominable, horrendous, wicked, hateful, evil, immoral, sinful, demonic ideology, as is feminism and unlawful divorce (in the case of Prince Gautama, the abandonment of his wife and son would be considered an act of divorce). When a so-called Zen Buddhist priest asks another MALE so-called Zen Buddhist priest (as occurred in a video interview I just watched on the Internet), "Do you and your husband have any kids?”, one can be fully assured that the lowest point in the history of humanity has been reached. The fact that both the aforementioned so-called priests are American men, is not coincidental, since the most decadent religionists seem to be of Western/first-world origin. I don't believe I have come across a single Western Buddhist monastic who is not at least slightly left-leaning (“leftism” being a common term in the English-speaking world for “adharmic”). If even 0.00001% of all Buddhists who have ever lived, were strict adherents to the teachings of the so-called “Buddha”, this would establish serious doubts regarding the holiness of Gautama’s precepts, because truth be told, hardly a single soul in human history has adhered to proper dharma/dhamma. 😇 सत्यमेव जयते! 😇
Dr. Vervaeke *correctly** points out the dangers of doing this from outside of a tested sapiential framework - but I would go a step further and say it requires *mastery* of the *right frameworks*. It does matter. Some frameworks will just leave you there and tell you you are done. Propositional knowing *is not enough*. This sub-participatory and the temptation to compare these states to psychedelics is a joke. It is *not* the same. And Jon's statement about psychedelic tourism is right. I would offer some correction on the stated method, but the problem is that, done correctly it is *far too easy* to get to this state, and far too dangerous for anyone who doesn't already *know*. Popularizing these methods is akin to popularizing heroin. There is a reason why many esoteric traditions do not go out and advertise master level skills. It's not because they are difficult. They aren't. Jhanas are phenomenologically completely different than pure consciousness event. PCE is *empty*. Jhana is the opposite - it is precisely identical to "Divine Illumination". It is overflowing - not empty. Time is optional. You go in and there is nothing relevant to speak of - infinite joy in infinite dimensions - absent of all meaning. Then the overflowing irrelevant "excellence" eventually pushes "you" back out. As far as I can tell the meaningless is "the point". After going in and out enough times you recognize the futility and loneliness of eternal joy (notice I did not say emptiness - its full). The only reasonable conclusion is that in order to "be meaningful" one must facilitate "it's" expansion out into the emerging chaos of existence. So you return to the cave - not to beckon others to take the journey but to save them the potential horror of discovering the truth by demonstrating the efficacy of its conclusion. Let's face it - most people, despite their claims, are not ready to even accept that all rhetoric is bullshit and *far less* ready to accept responsibility for what they experience. Almost no one should go there. Not everyone should be Shaman. It's a genetic anomaly to be so far out on the schizotypal side and certain types of temporal lobe epilepsy / cluster headaches, and we evolved that way specifically so the rest of society doesn't have to. It is not a blessing - it is a burden that has been wrongly romanticized. They forget or do not understand the price that Socrates, Jesus and many others had to pay for knowledge of the Abyss, the One, and Self that lies in between. Normal people should be highly discouraged from mystical journey and practices beyond the level commensurate with their level of understanding and experience. Anyway - good talk - next time Chamil Chandra or Michael Levin, please,
meditate: to think on, from Latin “meditat-”, meaning “contemplated”, from the verb “meditari”, from a base, meaning “measure”. In most religious/spiritual traditions, particularly those originating in Bharāta (India), meditation is a mental practice in which one either allows thoughts to appear in the mind (and simply observe those thoughts without judgement) or else one tries to focus all thought upon a single object. That object can be almost anything, yet most commonly is a religious figure (such as God, a demigod, or a spiritual master), a point in one’s visual field (such as a candle flame), a brief prayer (normally referred to as a “mantra”), or else, observing or focusing on one’s own breath (a fundamental part of “vipassanā”, in the Buddhistic tradition [“vipaśyanā”, in Sanskrit]). The main benefit of meditational practices is to free the mind of superfluous thoughts. Some individuals in the so-called “ultra-spiritual” community mistakenly believe that the cause of suffering is any thought whatsoever, and therefore, embark on a fruitless endeavour to eradicate all thoughts from the mind (or at least from the intellect - see Chapter 05). How I wish that every single one of those persons end-up in a coma for the remainder of their lives, since that is the only way that they will possibly achieve their impossible goal. Humorously, even coma patients can experience dream thoughts, so even then, their aim may be thwarted! Fortunately, as demonstrated in Chapter 15 of this “Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”, the source of suffering is NOT due to thoughts as such, but due to a misunderstanding of how life operates. The cure for such nescience is unerring knowledge. In fact, I would posit that excessive meditational practices, such as that observed by the stereotypical Hindu/Buddhist monk who flees to a mountain cave in order to meditate for about fifteen hours per day, is actually detrimental to one’s spiritual development, because it weakens the intellect. Just as the physical body requires regular exercise, the intellectual dimension of the human person also needs to be exercised via the study of philosophy and yoga, which is especially important for those who profess to be spiritual teachers. Therefore, a healthy balance between contemplative practice, intellectual endeavour, and physical exercise is most beneficial. Possibly the most apposite form of meditation for the overwhelming majority of humans is a kind of ACTIVE meditation, in which one is perpetually contemplating how to best benefit society. Because it is practically impossible for one to fully control one’s thoughts, one should use the hyperactive nature of the intellect to its advantage, by constantly devising methods how to further dharma. This is the principal meditation practice of the current World Teacher Himself, The Saviour of Humanity, Jagadguru Svāmī Vegānanda. Some persons believe that one can learn the “secrets of life” (that is, to fully understand life/existence, and how to live one’s life in accordance with the universal, Divine Will) by sitting in the lotus position and focusing one’s attention on the base (or tip) of one’s nose for several hours per day! Undoubtedly, some have received wise insights during their meditation practice, but to assume that one can replace the accumulated wisdom of the sages over the past twenty thousand years or so, with an introspective path of illumination, is, sad to say, one of the many delusions of pseudo-spirituality. None of the great sages in history were so naturally enlightened as to dispense with a living guru. Even a single day spent at the feet of an actual spiritual master can be more valuable to gaining knowledge and insight into the meaning of life, than an entire lifetime of meditating on one’s navel (figuratively speaking).
Dr.Vervaeke can makes difference for healing purpose when he teaches about meditation. People who have revere for it can feel it and I also feel it when I watched his teachings. The meditation he gives to people is like Jungian idea of dream analysis, because for better explanation of self-experiences, he gives trust while speaking about meditation. Of course there is thing in some cultural influences, meditation is understood reluctantly, Dr.Vervaeke can concern this for improving meditation theory. He is good, not incorrect. He can continue rescue to people is what innocent victims can have revere, spirituality and his practice for respecting fellow scholars, is very great thing young people should learn from it. He does not force victimized people for meditation and he approves various ways of asking relating meditation. He can approve poetry or musical reviews too. The meditation is one of the many things he approves victims, as he has been doing with trust to them.
@@colorfulbookmark Of course. Please don't let me be misunderstood. Dr. Vervaeke's work has both inspired and directed understanding while charting course, and his series are truly great. I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Vervaeke. I was responding to the comment that Jhanas are becoming very popular. I think this is problematic and dangerous. Not everyone should be exiting the cave at all. Jhanas and direct contemplation of the One are different. And I am not talking about skill level. Jhana practice is no more difficult - in fact its much easier. But should not be shared with uninitiated. Why? Because if you take people directly from the shadows and point them directly at the sun, they will go blind. Knowing without first understanding can cause a catastrophic collapse of all beliefs and opinions. Masters have reasons for not taking on every student. And not everyone should be taking Ayahuasca or mushrooms. Jhanas and direct contemplation of The One are on that level. Without a sapiential framework, these people will go blind or get addicted to the phenomenology.
The most brilliant feature of Dr.Vervaeke's view is that he started talk with unconditional trust to victimized man, from the past things happened, and with this condition, communication is possible to heal victims even with cognitive scientific ways.
I suppose meditation is in first place good thing for people such as ritual, however, when some people become reluctant is because of complexity of their experiences that were forced out experiences to think common sense to otherwise. The things like meditation is sometimes symbolic unable to do things and "dependent on others" this is not abnormal psyche, but complexity of experiences by others to put them on things. Things are working like differently, for example, modern transformative in Korean buddhism, utilisation of meditation as pseudo-ritual, in this sense too, people feel "are we just gear of society?" when some people say meditation is good thing. BUT, I think Dr.Vervaeke is great man to do meditation teachings and some similarity in topical phenomena made his teachings as if not, and we can distinct how he can do difference to declensive methods some modern Korean buddhism transformed by otherwise stuffs. The conditioned life, chronic depressions, can be healed by removing the root causes and keeping it into continuation, is also resolving the issues about these people. The trust given by these people are so amazing thing.
Dr.Vervaeke's way of teaching meditation is not framing someone, he approves alternatives such as poetry or musical reviews by people who were victimized. The meditation is symbolic gatekeeper which gives welcoming inquiry, many people like me can feel it. It also indicates people painstaking mode happened in their life. He gave people for foundation of trust, which is great theory he has on people's mental health. I didn't participate meditation of Zen practice, I could learn much about his teachings of spirituality, in a form of emotional expressions which I do better in Korean language, in English language too, his teachings approved my poetry and music reviews are also good, it is very great support amelioriation for suffering body. The opinions about it is often fallback into opposite position's tackling, I think Dr.Vervaeke also can listen it up because he is spiritual scholar who have warm mind in it.
It's truly sad that JV has succumbed to audience-capture & shunned his insight "we are comprehensively prone to self-deception." While his smile-a-while cohorts are obviously way too comfortable within their own skin to comprehend how well-being can be the dark-side of the human-condition, or understand their 'mind' as an emotional-complex? Demonstrating the existential prison of logical positivism and the failure to grasp the fantasy-of-knowing inherent in language & the reality of the ancient Son-of-Man (aka humanity) prophecy about the inevitable fate of the Word for Semi-Conscious Humanity, upon the Cross-of-Space-Time? Please try to be 'reality-wise' beyond mere words gentlemen.
@aaronmichaelseckman We are social creatures with a semi-conscious sense of reality, through our historical confusion about the nature of language & reality, or as St Augustine said, the mind is alienated from truth? The truth is that 95% of our reality cannot cross the threshold of conscious awareness and we need to create an abstract, consensual-reality vision of reality, because we can't be certain our perceptions of reality are exactly the same. Want to prove how semi-conscious you really are? Just wiggle your fingers & notice how this nervous-system synchronised motion occurs without instructions from your mind? Or try explaining 'how' you perform any of the quintessential behaviours that make you human? To awaken to the fantasy-of-knowing inherent in language, or as Einstein put it, "our delusion of consciousness, a kind of prison for us?"
From my limited knowledge, I imagine that beginning from Cessation, emerging from it, would seem to be the ideal starting point for modeling. Is there a practical reason Jhana was chosen as the starting point?
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Happy holidays, everyone! From the 21st of December to the 10th of January, The Lectern is offering a 25% discount on yearly memberships from Alpha to Delta tiers in The Lectern Lounge.
Head over here to find out more! - lectern.teachable.com/p/lectern-lounge
I like conversations like these where John is inquiring but also pushing back. For me, it's an example I want to follow
I heard someone once said that to pray is talking to the universe but meditation is listening to the universe. Thank you all so much.
The retired US meditation teacher Adyashanti, originally in the Zen tradition, is very skilled at describing the phenomenology of meditation and different stages of awakening, as well as the risks and needs for integration. His teaching is secular in orientation and his talks include different ideas and traditions such as Jung and Christianity.
He would be a great guest if this series goes to non-academics in differention traditions, as seems very adjacent to this space but from a personal practice perspective.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think the Buddha taught Jhana as an absorptive state to laypeople, generally.
As someone who experienced several years of recovering from “Rabbit Hole Metaphysics”, I think many, at least Western people, are not psychologically prepared or culturally supported enough to experience the phenomenological deconstruction of their faculties and land wisely and healthfully. Thank you for highlighting this challenge.
Great to hear all four of you discuss this, and I loved the discussion around nested generative models. I am very much looking forward to hearing more from you all, particularly on the ethos scaffolding that can help us avoid the "bad bootstrapping" Marc alluded to. I'm excited to see Jonas' future work with Dr. Karl Friston and Dr. Michael Lifshitz. I also believe, as Jonas concluded, that an optimal cognitive stance can be pursued via a state of play.
How and when do we expose ourselves to states of epistemic vulnerability within a sapiential framing to avoid known and unknown dangers, including fool's errands?
Dr.Vervaeke and his fellows are great people!
Great and lowly are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, are you VEGAN? 🌱
@@TheVeganVicar I am supporter for Dr.Vervaeke and his felllows. The meditation mentioning at the reply is to report declensive usage for meditation, which you wrongly declared as vegan. The thing is referential to people who really give meditational approach, as I have been supporting Dr.Vervaeke.
@@TheVeganVicar The modern Korean transformation in all areas of community is not to the spirituality but persecutive mechanisms, abusing religious term to the purpose. They are not Buddhists, and scholars who had rescue purposiveness did not want to participate. This is similarly when Jungian scholars are on pressure by Freudian followers, extended to religious area.
The meditation is traditionally and rationally for 무아지경 無我之境, the ontological politics Buddhist's teachings are abused and for power games of this sort.
When Dr.Peterson's theory on political correctness is introduced, some people also say harsh ontological shift in modern Korea, blamed religious rules, I suppose meditation reception is Korea is what we have to consider seriously when we think about Canadian people's sense too.
(1) Korean people are immigrated to Canada and their experiences began in Korean cultures
(2) Korean people's cultural thing such as dramas are known to international people too
(3) Harsh on-air in paricularity of Korean entertainment community made many counteropinions on various cultural areas but not now (!!)
(4) The influences forced out other community areas, including Buddhist practice especially on newer generation's morality
These are only named a few, this is also determinative factor why some people are reluctance to have meditation. People who have relunctant have their background experiences of complexity so I reported it, I think my reply is referential to understand around meditation and people's various receptions.
@@TheVeganVicar Dr.Peterson's view on religion is what many people like when political correctness is introduced, because people can know everything in society are connected in inferential level, I also like the view too. Dr.Vervaeke is also scholar I have revere for it.
"Awakening is always by accident, but meditation makes you more accident prone." Zen saying
What an unexpected blessing, John 🙏🏼
Can you please share the papers ??
Great convo!
John, you really need to get Ruben involved with this conversation. The end of this convo leads directly into my work on “epistemic hygiene” and the reason I’ve decided to do clinical first. Especially relevant to the Australian context here where psychedelic therapy is going full-mainstream.
Hope you’re happy and well and excited for sabbatical.
🙏🏽❤️🎉💋 Happy NY.
Absorption: Altered state of consciousness
Choiceless Awareness: Altered mode of being
16:05 How I make sense of this is the form of the Jhana in the absorbed state then becomes the Bodhisattva you entrust with organizing the information you perceive after the reemergence is complete.
i read awakening from the meaning crisis. Phenomenal. Now i can cite this in my seminar works finally. But when is your book with greg henriques coming out? Cant wait. Happy new year to you all.
Really great, (Nice to put a face on Rick.) discussion. Nice to see more data on what is going on in these states (there was a study recently that compared Zen and Vajrayana practices which I have lost, it might not have been printed yet, I will ask). One thing that was not mentioned is that once you get to level 4 you get a non sensory manifestation of light, sound (various), and or smell (roses) before what I can only describe as falling off the seat/ground of the body, like mind detaching into an entirely non physical, non sensory state of presence. Regarding insight, in Vajrayana we call that hearing the "secret Lama", in theosophy this is "Higher Self" or the "Guardian Angel". So to Rick I would say that whether you are a Christian or a Buddhist depending on the practice both are experiencing the same thing, but as was mentioned our cultural baggage influences the interpretation. I would agree on the dangers of these practices being distributed without a framework, I find Sam Harris and his ilk very dangerous in this, the atheistic disregard of the higher practices and the systems that guide them. Very easy to turn this into a drug. Also I will note that what was mentioned about the narrowing of response has two aspects depending on how far you go; not being startled by a car backfiring is interesting and pleasant, but when you start being disassociated from the world you run into problems that perhaps a monk might not have a problem with, but going to work as a lay person can be problematic. On a final note is just to mentioned that these practices come with the sidhas, tummo, healing, telepathy, emitting light, becoming translucent, remote viewing, seeing the dead, levitation, emitting the smell of roses, etc. all of which have been reported by both Christian Saints and Yogis. I know that this is not something that western academics like to talk about but it comes with the territory, it would be interesting to see more of this looked at seriously. There has been a recent study on the Rainbow Body begun at the request of the Dalai Lama. Cheers
dhamma:
the Pāli cognate of “dharma”. However, in this case, it invariably refers to the teachings of Gautama Buddha, rather than the eternal law (“sanātana dharma”, in Sanskrit). In this book, it is used in the former sense, that is, of “holy and righteous concepts and deeds”. Therefore, the term “Buddhist dhamma/dharma” is somewhat nonsensical, since dhamma/dharma is fundamentally non-sectarian.
Despite being the most atheistic human being to have ever existed, I often PRAY that I am not in the process of consuming a meal whenever I hear a Buddhist monk or lay teacher referring to his or her lecture as being a “dhamma talk”. If you have carefully read the entirety of this Holy Scripture, “F.I.S.H”, and you have listened to many Buddhist sermons, you may have already guessed the reason for my fervent prayer. This is because the assertion that the overwhelming majority of Buddhist monks are teaching authentic dharma, is so excruciatingly cringe-worthy and laughable, I am genuinely fearful of choking on my food upon hearing such silly claims!
First of all, the founder of Buddhism himself, Siddhārtha Gautama was hardly a paragon of virtue, having abandoned his family in order to become a mendicant monk, being an animal-abusing carnist, and encouraging females to become loose women (so-called “nuns”). In my half a century of life, I have only ever encountered one or two Buddhists who adhered to (actual) dharma, so in that sense, they were factually SUPERIOR to Gautama himself! For instance, the abbot of the largest Buddhist society in my homeland, Australia, believes that it is dharmic (legitimate) for men to insert their reproductive organs inside the faeces holes of other men, and of course, like his idol, Gautama, he is a murderer of poor, innocent, defenceless animals, and a filthy feminist. Furthermore, despite being an indigenous Englishman, and a graduate of one of the most prestigious universities on earth, University of Cambridge, he is entirely unable to coherently speak his native tongue! Should not a supposed “spiritual leader” be an exemplar in at least his own language?
Of course, no human being (including so-called “Avatars”) who has ever lived was morally perfect, but those who claim to be spiritual masters ought to be beyond reproach in respect to their own ethical practices. In the aforementioned case, Gautama should have returned to his family as soon as he understood the immorality of his actions, just as I, when I began adhering to dharma, repaid two persons from whom I had stolen goods and cash. Furthermore, assuming that Gautama was really a carnist (and knowing the typical diet of Bhārata, it would be safe to assume that he was at LEAST a lacto-vegetarian, and therefore an animal-abusing criminal), he was certainly sufficiently intelligent to understand that it is unnatural for an adult human to suckle the teats of a cow or a goat, and that human beings are fully herbivorous. Otherwise, how could he possibly be considered a member of the priestly class of society (“brāhmaṇa”, in Sanskrit) if he was not able to even comprehend some of the most basic facts of life? Make no mistake, carnism (see that entry in this Glossary) is a truly abominable, horrendous, wicked, hateful, evil, immoral, sinful, demonic ideology, as is feminism and unlawful divorce (in the case of Prince Gautama, the abandonment of his wife and son would be considered an act of divorce).
When a so-called Zen Buddhist priest asks another MALE so-called Zen Buddhist priest (as occurred in a video interview I just watched on the Internet), "Do you and your husband have any kids?”, one can be fully assured that the lowest point in the history of humanity has been reached. The fact that both the aforementioned so-called priests are American men, is not coincidental, since the most decadent religionists seem to be of Western/first-world origin. I don't believe I have come across a single Western Buddhist monastic who is not at least slightly left-leaning (“leftism” being a common term in the English-speaking world for “adharmic”).
If even 0.00001% of all Buddhists who have ever lived, were strict adherents to the teachings of the so-called “Buddha”, this would establish serious doubts regarding the holiness of Gautama’s precepts, because truth be told, hardly a single soul in human history has adhered to proper dharma/dhamma.
😇 सत्यमेव जयते! 😇
This is fascinating!
"Ecology of practices" ...the hinge for optimal/higher coherence existence post radical undoing.
Does the lightness mentioned relate to chi?
Dr. Vervaeke *correctly** points out the dangers of doing this from outside of a tested sapiential framework - but I would go a step further and say it requires *mastery* of the *right frameworks*. It does matter. Some frameworks will just leave you there and tell you you are done.
Propositional knowing *is not enough*. This sub-participatory and the temptation to compare these states to psychedelics is a joke. It is *not* the same. And Jon's statement about psychedelic tourism is right.
I would offer some correction on the stated method, but the problem is that, done correctly it is *far too easy* to get to this state, and far too dangerous for anyone who doesn't already *know*. Popularizing these methods is akin to popularizing heroin. There is a reason why many esoteric traditions do not go out and advertise master level skills. It's not because they are difficult. They aren't.
Jhanas are phenomenologically completely different than pure consciousness event. PCE is *empty*. Jhana is the opposite - it is precisely identical to "Divine Illumination". It is overflowing - not empty. Time is optional. You go in and there is nothing relevant to speak of - infinite joy in infinite dimensions - absent of all meaning. Then the overflowing irrelevant "excellence" eventually pushes "you" back out.
As far as I can tell the meaningless is "the point". After going in and out enough times you recognize the futility and loneliness of eternal joy (notice I did not say emptiness - its full). The only reasonable conclusion is that in order to "be meaningful" one must facilitate "it's" expansion out into the emerging chaos of existence. So you return to the cave - not to beckon others to take the journey but to save them the potential horror of discovering the truth by demonstrating the efficacy of its conclusion.
Let's face it - most people, despite their claims, are not ready to even accept that all rhetoric is bullshit and *far less* ready to accept responsibility for what they experience. Almost no one should go there. Not everyone should be Shaman.
It's a genetic anomaly to be so far out on the schizotypal side and certain types of temporal lobe epilepsy / cluster headaches, and we evolved that way specifically so the rest of society doesn't have to. It is not a blessing - it is a burden that has been wrongly romanticized. They forget or do not understand the price that Socrates, Jesus and many others had to pay for knowledge of the Abyss, the One, and Self that lies in between.
Normal people should be highly discouraged from mystical journey and practices beyond the level commensurate with their level of understanding and experience.
Anyway - good talk - next time Chamil Chandra or Michael Levin, please,
meditate:
to think on, from Latin “meditat-”, meaning “contemplated”, from the verb “meditari”, from a base, meaning “measure”.
In most religious/spiritual traditions, particularly those originating in Bharāta (India), meditation is a mental practice in which one either allows thoughts to appear in the mind (and simply observe those thoughts without judgement) or else one tries to focus all thought upon a single object. That object can be almost anything, yet most commonly is a religious figure (such as God, a demigod, or a spiritual master), a point in one’s visual field (such as a candle flame), a brief prayer (normally referred to as a “mantra”), or else, observing or focusing on one’s own breath (a fundamental part of “vipassanā”, in the Buddhistic tradition [“vipaśyanā”, in Sanskrit]).
The main benefit of meditational practices is to free the mind of superfluous thoughts. Some individuals in the so-called “ultra-spiritual” community mistakenly believe that the cause of suffering is any thought whatsoever, and therefore, embark on a fruitless endeavour to eradicate all thoughts from the mind (or at least from the intellect - see Chapter 05). How I wish that every single one of those persons end-up in a coma for the remainder of their lives, since that is the only way that they will possibly achieve their impossible goal. Humorously, even coma patients can experience dream thoughts, so even then, their aim may be thwarted!
Fortunately, as demonstrated in Chapter 15 of this “Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”, the source of suffering is NOT due to thoughts as such, but due to a misunderstanding of how life operates. The cure for such nescience is unerring knowledge. In fact, I would posit that excessive meditational practices, such as that observed by the stereotypical Hindu/Buddhist monk who flees to a mountain cave in order to meditate for about fifteen hours per day, is actually detrimental to one’s spiritual development, because it weakens the intellect. Just as the physical body requires regular exercise, the intellectual dimension of the human person also needs to be exercised via the study of philosophy and yoga, which is especially important for those who profess to be spiritual teachers.
Therefore, a healthy balance between contemplative practice, intellectual endeavour, and physical exercise is most beneficial.
Possibly the most apposite form of meditation for the overwhelming majority of humans is a kind of ACTIVE meditation, in which one is perpetually contemplating how to best benefit society. Because it is practically impossible for one to fully control one’s thoughts, one should use the hyperactive nature of the intellect to its advantage, by constantly devising methods how to further dharma. This is the principal meditation practice of the current World Teacher Himself, The Saviour of Humanity, Jagadguru Svāmī Vegānanda.
Some persons believe that one can learn the “secrets of life” (that is, to fully understand life/existence, and how to live one’s life in accordance with the universal, Divine Will) by sitting in the lotus position and focusing one’s attention on the base (or tip) of one’s nose for several hours per day! Undoubtedly, some have received wise insights during their meditation practice, but to assume that one can replace the accumulated wisdom of the sages over the past twenty thousand years or so, with an introspective path of illumination, is, sad to say, one of the many delusions of pseudo-spirituality. None of the great sages in history were so naturally enlightened as to dispense with a living guru. Even a single day spent at the feet of an actual spiritual master can be more valuable to gaining knowledge and insight into the meaning of life, than an entire lifetime of meditating on one’s navel (figuratively speaking).
Dr.Vervaeke can makes difference for healing purpose when he teaches about meditation. People who have revere for it can feel it and I also feel it when I watched his teachings. The meditation he gives to people is like Jungian idea of dream analysis, because for better explanation of self-experiences, he gives trust while speaking about meditation.
Of course there is thing in some cultural influences, meditation is understood reluctantly, Dr.Vervaeke can concern this for improving meditation theory. He is good, not incorrect.
He can continue rescue to people is what innocent victims can have revere, spirituality and his practice for respecting fellow scholars, is very great thing young people should learn from it. He does not force victimized people for meditation and he approves various ways of asking relating meditation. He can approve poetry or musical reviews too. The meditation is one of the many things he approves victims, as he has been doing with trust to them.
@@colorfulbookmark Of course. Please don't let me be misunderstood. Dr. Vervaeke's work has both inspired and directed understanding while charting course, and his series are truly great. I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Vervaeke.
I was responding to the comment that Jhanas are becoming very popular. I think this is problematic and dangerous. Not everyone should be exiting the cave at all.
Jhanas and direct contemplation of the One are different. And I am not talking about skill level. Jhana practice is no more difficult - in fact its much easier. But should not be shared with uninitiated.
Why? Because if you take people directly from the shadows and point them directly at the sun, they will go blind.
Knowing without first understanding can cause a catastrophic collapse of all beliefs and opinions. Masters have reasons for not taking on every student.
And not everyone should be taking Ayahuasca or mushrooms. Jhanas and direct contemplation of The One are on that level. Without a sapiential framework, these people will go blind or get addicted to the phenomenology.
The most brilliant feature of Dr.Vervaeke's view is that he started talk with unconditional trust to victimized man, from the past things happened, and with this condition, communication is possible to heal victims even with cognitive scientific ways.
I suppose meditation is in first place good thing for people such as ritual, however, when some people become reluctant is because of complexity of their experiences that were forced out experiences to think common sense to otherwise. The things like meditation is sometimes symbolic unable to do things and "dependent on others" this is not abnormal psyche, but complexity of experiences by others to put them on things. Things are working like differently, for example, modern transformative in Korean buddhism, utilisation of meditation as pseudo-ritual, in this sense too, people feel "are we just gear of society?" when some people say meditation is good thing.
BUT, I think Dr.Vervaeke is great man to do meditation teachings and some similarity in topical phenomena made his teachings as if not, and we can distinct how he can do difference to declensive methods some modern Korean buddhism transformed by otherwise stuffs.
The conditioned life, chronic depressions, can be healed by removing the root causes and keeping it into continuation, is also resolving the issues about these people.
The trust given by these people are so amazing thing.
Dr.Vervaeke's way of teaching meditation is not framing someone, he approves alternatives such as poetry or musical reviews by people who were victimized. The meditation is symbolic gatekeeper which gives welcoming inquiry, many people like me can feel it. It also indicates people painstaking mode happened in their life. He gave people for foundation of trust, which is great theory he has on people's mental health.
I didn't participate meditation of Zen practice, I could learn much about his teachings of spirituality, in a form of emotional expressions which I do better in Korean language, in English language too, his teachings approved my poetry and music reviews are also good, it is very great support amelioriation for suffering body.
The opinions about it is often fallback into opposite position's tackling, I think Dr.Vervaeke also can listen it up because he is spiritual scholar who have warm mind in it.
I do Jhana when I do kettlebell workouts, which is like yoga with weights, and run
It's truly sad that JV has succumbed to audience-capture & shunned his insight "we are comprehensively prone to self-deception." While his smile-a-while cohorts are obviously way too comfortable within their own skin to comprehend how well-being can be the dark-side of the human-condition, or understand their 'mind' as an emotional-complex?
Demonstrating the existential prison of logical positivism and the failure to grasp the fantasy-of-knowing inherent in language & the reality of the ancient Son-of-Man (aka humanity) prophecy about the inevitable fate of the Word for Semi-Conscious Humanity, upon the Cross-of-Space-Time? Please try to be 'reality-wise' beyond mere words gentlemen.
You might need to unpack that for most of us, me included.
@aaronmichaelseckman We are social creatures with a semi-conscious sense of reality, through our historical confusion about the nature of language & reality, or as St Augustine said, the mind is alienated from truth? The truth is that 95% of our reality cannot cross the threshold of conscious awareness and we need to create an abstract, consensual-reality vision of reality, because we can't be certain our perceptions of reality are exactly the same. Want to prove how semi-conscious you really are? Just wiggle your fingers & notice how this nervous-system synchronised motion occurs without instructions from your mind? Or try explaining 'how' you perform any of the quintessential behaviours that make you human? To awaken to the fantasy-of-knowing inherent in language, or as Einstein put it, "our delusion of consciousness, a kind of prison for us?"
From my limited knowledge, I imagine that beginning from Cessation, emerging from it, would seem to be the ideal starting point for modeling. Is there a practical reason Jhana was chosen as the starting point?
…and over so soon :’( Fantastic conversation. Thanks to all participants!
Great conversation
I heard Jannah, pulled out a cushion and meditated on my top 72 list. It works! My insight was that I'm an idiot
I suggest that any feeling of pleasantness is “participant” mind not “observer” mind.
I'll see you
Listening to a jhana talk by Leigh Brasington would be more productive.