What is my ultimate Home Storage Battery - Is it better than a Powerwall or Givenergy?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- My Home Storage Battery choice. I created a wish list of features and specs and then chose this Victron Inverter and Pylontech battery combination.
In my mind, for my needs this is the ultimate battery system.
The him of the inverter can be heard when I'm not speaking, it's a noisey little inverter.
Solar config
PV all JA solar 9.2kwp
14X280w (3.68kw Huawei )
8X300w (2.0kw Solaredge)
4x450w (1.8kw)
3x370w (1.1kw)
Myenergi Zappi 1, Eddi and Hub
Battery:
Victron Multiplus II 48/5000
5 x Pylontech Us3000C
EV: Mini Electric Cooper SE Level 3 in midnight black
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Twitter: @EVPuzzle
My recommendation for solar/battery installer:
Power Different
Hethel Engineering Centre
Chapman Way
Hethel
NR14 8FB
Tel: 01603 406052
email: kris@powerdifferent.co.uk
www.powerdiffe...
We built an off grid farmhouse in South Africa 3 years ago, and after a lot of research and advice went with the same combination. Victron is very robust kit, modular, so it's more expensive but extremely reliable. The pylontech 3.5kw batteries, seem to be very reliable so far, and very flexible because you can expand capacity so easily. I'm running with 2 at the moment, which works well, runs all my appliances and tools, but three would probably ideal to give a bit of extra capacity for cloudy days and match the full supply capacity of the Multiplus 2 to the continuous supply capacity of the battery bank. You need to ensure that you have enough panels to charge them though.
The Australian Renewable Energy agency has been running comparative battery tests in a long term study and found them to be one of the most reliable batteries tested, also maintaining an impressive charge capacity over the lifetime.
Very happy camper so far. 👍
I have had these batteries for 6 years, they have saved me £1000s over that time. Flexible, upgradable and versatile system. They also contribute to the central heating system as I use heat batteries for the central heating. Using a My Energi Eddie to supply surplus to the heat batteries and a second solar array specifically for just that. In the winter months I would top up with overnight grid electricity at 5p per kWh (soon to be 7.5p).
Like you I spent many weeks working out what I really wanted and also what my future needs would be. So I’m glad to see you took the same route as I did some years back. The batteries look better in a dedicated cabinet I have to say, and now I have that they do look more professional, but in the end it’s what they do that gives you pride in bucking the trend of white boxes of dumb non expandable or flexible energy.
The future of export of excess electricity , this is really exciting I feel. The grid are playing with timed and on demand balancing from everyday people who can sell their energy for a very healthy KWh price. In time we could in theory make more than we consume, and with the original FIT that I have I already do.
Btw I’m no tech chap, I really had to work it all out as no one at the time understood what I was really trying to achieve. Even now companies really don’t understand this very much at all, they only see white boxes and not the larger picture.
Keep up the good work.
this sounds like a good system - did you install or could you recommend an installer
Solar energy storage limited is worth a try
Finally had two PylonTech 3000s installed last week. Loving the significant reduction in grid usage - now need a couple more. Keep up the good work.
How long do they take to charge off mains electricity?
After watching your video which I found very informative, I did some pricing over here in Sweden on the Pylontech batteries with some shocking results. Buying from Austria and including shipping to me, these came out at a little over £1200 equivalent, while trying to source them here in Sweden came to £1900 equivalent + shipping. Neither as good as the circa £1000 pricing you mentioned in your video, even allowing for inflation over time since your video was posted, but Austria wasn't a terrible difference, unlike the Swedish company who I feel are price gouging. I found the information on Victron and Pylontech both to be extremely useful, thanks for this.
A Eureka video for me. Wandering around this type type of generic video on google and RUclips without a clue Nigel has given me the laser focus on what I actually need. I immediately reached out to Nigel’s installer who are local to me but Power Different in Norfolk only do commercial installations. They suggested some reliable companies who do domestic. Installs so will be contacting them. Cannot thank Nigel enough for this video which held me spellbound for the entire 44 minutes. A great delivery from a highly trusted source.
You're too kind I or, thank you
A really informative video! I'm also really impressed with your ability to just naturally talk about it unedited, having to contend with constant video edits, is something that I struggle with sometimes!
That's the aim but there's always a few bits to cut as I get carried away sometimes.
I hate the idea of scripts and it should just flow but it's not easy to get it in one take
Probably the most useful, information-packed RUclips advice video on designing your own system, period
...especially when you add all the interesting and informative comments
You're very kind sir, thank you
I love that 3 years before this you were debating the pros of getting a 6kwh battery, now here you are with a 17.5kwh system! Will check back in 6 months for the 50kwh system review! :-)
Lol I know, 6kwh was a sensible size but hey why be sensible. Glad I went all In now.
An excellent choice of components. Pylontech battery system is easily expandable, I have done it. I was really sold on the fact that they are rack mountable. Not as nice looking as the force series, but I am not installing them in my living room.
For clarification, the 50A passthrough is from the network through the MultiPlus including energy from the battery. In a network blackout you will not get 50A because the inverter is 5kVA and can only output ~20A when inverting from battery.
Great video. Thanks for going through all that - that's quite a lot to take in, but definitely all worthwhile. I'm starting to look into these as they were also recommended by someone I know (who's also looking to get a whole solar+battery system) and those batteries always worried me because they were so cheap. After your video, I feel a bit better about them and are on my contender's list.
I'm going through your whole back catalogue Nigel! I've done my research and I'll be getting a Multiplus II 48/5000 with 15kWh of storage, probably Seplos Mason.
Good decision...if mounted on a non adjoining internal wall . I'm really happy with ours , in fact I often think of doubling down with a 48/8000 or even 10000
@@EVPuzzle I'd certainly prefer the 8000. My caveat on the 5k is that it doesn't leave much scope for expansion above 15kWh and still being able to comfortably charge within a Go slot in the depths of winter. Our house is 200m2 and the elec demand is significant over Dec and Jan (ASHP is running at a SCOP of 4.6 I might add).
@@TomThomas-jj9tq from memory the 8000 isn't on the UK approved list for some odd reason
@@EVPuzzle I assume the comment about non-adjoining wall is due to fan noise?
I got solar panels in January now I want more batterys and an electric car love these videos have done one on my choice
Brilliant choices Nigel, the Victron stuff is world class and user programmable unlike the powerwall. The Pylon tech batteries are more reliable and also have better round trip efficiency when compared to the powerwall (Less conversion stages). 100% agree with your choices here well done.
Phew I'm not mad after all, glad for the thumbs up. My installer is swearing though, it's their first Victron 🤭🤣 but they should offer it as a premium solution imo
@@EVPuzzle sounds like good job by power different wish had gone with them if I had know how good they are and would love a system like yours with all the geeky stuff but I got mostly the system I asked for and was ordered about 18 months ago . The hardware is great it’s just the software 🤨😡 that’s crap . I agree with you the diy look of this type of battery if I had know the look of them I would have asked them to put in a rack
Thanks for the video Nigel. DC to DC batteries and power modules are much, much more efficient than DC to AC batteries as it is much easier to drop/ increase the voltage using a DC/DC inverter, especially on the charge cycle where the inverter converts the PV output to AC and then the AC battery converts that AC power back to DC, so you’re double a double conversion which looses so much power especially on days where it’s sunny then cloudy and back again, your charging/ discharging the AC battery maybe fifty times a day wasting a lot of energy doing the converting. That’s why hybrid inverters with matched batteries are superior.
Your old Huawei system had firmware updates approximately every two months, and they will continue to update the Luna battery and power module for the the foreseeable future.
I’m delighted you’re experimenting and having fun doing so. I have done all this myself and had the AC coupled batteries too, but I’m now very happy with my 6kW Huawei hybrid inverter, 10kWh Luna batteries and the backup box. The last two firmware updates have given some extra improvements in performance, especially in low light conditions.
I understand that you’re a spreadsheet junkie and need your daily fix of statistics, but I prefer to concentrate on just generating more power and am happy with the reporting from the Huawei and MyEnergi apps. And yes, I know that it’s difficult to see all the power the PVs are generating when a large chunk of that power can hide in the batteries, but all is revealed when the batteries are discharged, the app knows what proportion of the charge was generated using the panels and what percentage came from charging at night, I think that’s pretty smart.
I’m looking forward to your next update, can up the fantastic analyses.
Appreciate the update on huawei. I could only go with ehT I saw which was very poor generation compared to other systems and a rather poor software interface for charging. Non existenct really. I'm really pleased to hear its improving as it has the makings of an excellent system
Good look with the new car too, it looks gorgeous and you were 100% right to treat yourself to the full options pack. Gadget men need all the gadgets we can get.
I’ve carefully watched a ton of online videos and decided I’m going down the Victron Pylontec route. I have found a company that can design and specify a system and visit site to commission with my installer who has never worked with or been trained on Victron 😎
Thank you for the videos!
Make them out the grid monitor in the right place , unlike mine that's taken far to long to get right
@@EVPuzzle I’ve contacted Howetec for the design. Is this the same company you used
No, not heard of them.
I'd say one of my installers mistakes is not drawing up the design and discussing how that design would work, they were more the install immediately then document afterwards
Looks like such a great setup, well researched and explained! Sounds like you have a great installer, so far the installers I’ve seen will only do the one brand of system that they prefer.
Try keeping up with all batteries out there. I have done 4 makes
It's a nightmare. The market is mad enough.
Keep life simple has gone, it's not solar anymore, it's batteries, ev cars, energy bills, solar, inverter and G99 on every job. Each job we install we have to register with 6 bodies.
Red tape is killing the industry.
Then all the design work and multiple quotations for every customer .
Prices are going up because of all the above.
Try keep it simple guys, do your homework and tell your installer what you want.
One more comment, are there any women on here? It seems like a man's world, why?
Good to hear from someone who understands the importance of being in control of your own data and equipment. The words you didn't use were 'open protocol' and 'free software/open source' (oh, no you did eventually, 34mins in :-). These are the things that guarantee that control. If we have the details of how to talk to a device then we can write our own software and not be dependent on what manufacturers choose to provide. And it doesn't matter if they go bust and fall off the net one day. Far too many providers only give you their proprietary app or 'platform' so stuff becomes useless if they go bust, and you have no control, and their kit only works with other components from the same manufacturer.
I too have concluded that the pylontech kit is flexible, compatible, has an open protocol and free software available to do monitoring.
I've always had Victron down as 'top quality, but unnecessarily expensive' kit. Sounds like I should take a more serious look at what they provide as we are clearly coming from a very similar point of view. Thanks for the details.
Which disconnector/transfer switch did you pick?
Inbuilt in the Victron
Paralell - yes but you can also seriese them.... Unsupported config but not outside Victron spec... I have and it works great whilst maintaining redundency!
I am on the brink of deciding next steps for a 20kWh battery and your videos help a lot, thank you
I would love wiring schematic of how you have wired your system. I'm about to start this journey and have same system planned
The answer to everything as you present it , has been my dilemma... My solution was to cut my system in blocks that each are not enough to run the whole show, but a % of the show. I estimated what the best of one ultimate system would give me all that I could ever want, then I divided that into 4 systems that total the ultimate system. Then I set up 2 of the systems(50% of my ultimate setup)... so, I could feel how that serviced me, then I installed the 3rd one and saw that I may never install the 4th one. That gives me contingency power... if one system blows up, I am not down. All I do is swap a few plugs and keep going. If I need to add later, and technology has improved drastically, I can add the 4th system at that level. Compatibility is not necessary and actually no very possible, unless one buys backwards... not a good idea!
Good points in your prez, that I hadn't thought about. Well done.
Super detailed update from a cold garage at 07:30am! Thanks for the mention too. Great to hear and understand your decision process and I liked the wants and needs portion. Seems the solution you have chosen ticks all your requirements. Will be great to see how you get on with it.
Still not up and running all because of a grid meter! When it's working it should be good.
We RUclipsrs have to stick together so of course I'll give you and your excellent channel a mention or 3👍
The force L2 is in stock at ITS for next day delivery
5k for 15kw.
L1 is wider and lower while L2 is Narrower and taller. To fit all spaces.
Modular upto 25kw i believe and then stackable.
Typical 🤦♂️
@@EVPuzzle We have all ordered something out of stock Then it comes in stock moment the alternative arrives.
In Fairness i don't think the L2 can interchange between versions. Whereas the US3000c's can Like the US5000 are out already and work with the 3000s. So your alternative buy was the better one i personally think.
Interesting that you have come up with the same mix of battery tech and inverter / control as I have. Ie Pylontech and Victron for many of the reasons you state. My choice of Victron was driven by my installing a solar / victron based system on a boat recently. Victron ticks my boxes
Was just about to make the same comment, I spent nearly a year researching all the options and came up with the same answers and have just taken the plunge. Just seen this video and your comment has taken away the last niggling doubt I'd made a very expensive mistake! 👍
My installation went live at the the end of August '22. 4* US2000c giving 10KWh, Victron Multiplus II 5kWh and SolarEdge Invertor, 16 * PV's. Going into the first winter solar energy is dropping as expected. The Victron ESS has been set up to charge the batteries on a low tariff rate. This works well as it has reduced my day time grid use to zero. I am assessing adding more batteries to increase to 15KWh to more. 10KWh can be used up by early evening if the solar yield is low. (only 3-4KWh per day in November!) and we could do with running more electric heaters in the evening. Myenergi Eddi works really well, hot water always on hand. Couldn't get a Eddi relay card to monitor HW temp, used a RUUVI Bluetooth temp monitor and set up Centro GX to display and track HW temp via the Victron VRM.
Thanks for the video as always. Raised a whole suite of issues I’ve never considered before. Will follow the commissioning with interest and hope you’ll be jumping for joy when it’s all up and running…
had an installer call today to discuss batteries and they mentioned Givernergy and pylontech. I’d never heard of the latter until this video so that’s given me confidence to hear more about them.
Outdated technology and half the warranties of the giv equipment. We stopped selling pylon tech about 4 years ago. Modern batteries much safer to have in the home too. This video is honestly nonsense, nothing he has mentioned the pylon tech doing, other battery systems can't
Installer no doubt who likes to install Givenergy ?
Amongst others. We're here to give people the best possible solution for their homes. I'm not sure what your argument is for outdated tech, that is less safe and poor warranties?
Your opinion. Was going to reply in depth but just not worth it youre entitled to your opinion but there's no need to dis another system unless you've got facts.
Safety. Love to hear the facts on why Pylontech lifepo4 is unsafe and Givenergy is safe
It isn't an opinion, it is fact. You've only to compare the systems via technical sheets at a base level to see it. Factually it is less safe, it also doesn't have the life span either. Pylon tech was great as the initial gateway to domestic battery storage, things have moved on now.
Been running lux with pylontech for 2 years now. Lux side is ok but the pylontech batteries seem to be rock solid and no fuss. Looks like a good setup. In some respects I should have done more research and gone victron but only considered them for off grid.
That’s deffo the right way to go making your storage batteries upgradable but also if one module has a problem if can be unplugged till someone can look at it and leave the rest still running. I didn’t realise you could now get a inverters that has a blackout mode a lot has certainly changed since 2014 when I had my solar installed. Can’t wait to move back into the house so i can upgrade it and add more.
very informative - we are installing 7kw solar panel system in Sydney- it will be installed on 14tth march- and we are now investigating whether we incorporate a battery system- thanks for this video
Hi Pal ... Great Vid .... I got so much from this and THANK YOU
Welcome 👍
We've got 3x3.5kWh pylontechs with a victron easy solar gx II. Been rock solid in the over 2 years we've had it. Acts as a UPS too for us. It's a great choice.
Just need to get our grid meter working correctly so it drops out of passthru mode then it should be live
@@EVPuzzle I’m still trying to understand the problem. By passthrough mode on the grid inverter that is? The grid inverter just inverts your solar right? So it’s either charging the batteries or supplying the load or sending energy back to the grid. As the battery charger just appears as another load to the grid, I’m trying to work out what your issue is? Passthrough mode is usually only on hybrid inverters like the Victron.
I'm not inverting anything, I'm just on grid power and AC connected solar
There is a lot of good advice in this vid, but. re trading power. In Australia where I live there is one electricity supplier. To buy a kWh from the grid costs 22c/kWh, if I export a kWh from my solar panels during the day I get 8c/kWh. About a ratio of 3:1. Until this is more equitable I will maximise the usage of power from my solar panels either by using it in the house or directing it into battery storage.
Good update, be interesting to know how it all works out in practice versus the research. Completely agree that understanding how you use energy is vital to specifying the correct system, both in total available storage size and peak discharge. Ideally I'd like to see local control be an option going forward both for data storage and system access.
nigel a few people i know have had issues with these batteries, check with the company on where your buying them from on the warranty coverage as they can suddenly fail, others have said pylon require the product back to china to do repairs not replace in the event of a problem such as internal battery failure, further to this i have had experience with these packs in the past at work as a workstation ups for a critical local setup. there first gen 1.5kwh was ok but out of the 5 we had but we had 3 failures in a year. it took 6 weeks to get them back in the end the company swapped them for an RS unit. others have had trouble free use, its a real mixed bag. im convinced that it has to do with deep cycle discharge setups overheating the pack bms so I would recommend making sure you don't drop below 10% regularly
Many thanks over working anything is likely to reduce the mtbf I guess. I'm hoping to keep well within 90% most of the time and look after temperatures so fingers crossed.
In reality any battery system can fail so it's all about the warranty and your relationship with your installer who needs to take the unit back to the distributor bought from. I'm not expecting to deal with China directly
Wow, excellent video, very informative, have to admit the 19" rack mount batteries have caught my attention because of the flexibility they confer provided, as you have, the inverter side is compatible. I was worried I would have to question some of your ideas early on where you were talking of a small battery option. Then you developed with the inverter solution and as I agree supporting the grid is going to be gaining ground over the older issues of battery longevity. The future is looking, sustainable, green and economically viable. Go Nigel!
Many thanks mate, it is looking good... If only I could get this blooming grid meter working
Thanks for this video this is exactly what I want. Modular and expandable
I'm having 4 kw panels installed on a south west facing roof. I also am having the i-boost water heater installed. I don't have an EV at present and have gas heating. I will collect a year's data before deciding what to do next. I'd love to go to electric for heat (potentially expensive but gas servicing and standing charge would be dropped). In order to do this I may need more panels and definitely a battery with decent storage. Your videos are very useful for information - thanks.
Robert yes to more panels and a battery to keep electric heating costs minimal .
It's not hard to test like I did using cheap heaters. Even if you switch gas off for some of the rooms and lower the temp at the boiler you should see good savings using solar energy.
Thank You for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
*Absolutely perfect for what we use . **Generater.Systems** for Our 500wt power station! Love it!!!!*
Great long form video - thanks for the detailed walkthrough!
Find a decent installer... yeah thats the tricky bit 🙂 Hope the new system works as you hope, it looks like it should!
I find this ironic because my brother had (and still has) pylontech and had numerous issues to do with firmware and incompatibility between batteries, replacements, and also control ( he has to flip a physical switch to control something or other)
GiveEnergy now seem to be pretty well established so whilst I understand your concerns time seems to have got over most of those plus there is (AUIUI) local as well as internet control of the batteries and inverter.
Pylontech are just the batteries, if you've got a naff inverter you'll experience issues I'm sure . Mine and others I know are all faultless
@@EVPuzzle it was all to do with the battery firmware. This was in, I think 2021.
I did exactly the same, only with a lux hybrid inverter, and in April 21. I have had no problems with Pylontech batteries. You should get the bat-view system that shows cell voltages and general battery health.
I'll. Look up the batview thing, thanks
Can you link or name the view system?
I've been using Victron kit on my boat for years and the battery sensor is a very useful bit of kit. It overcomes the voltage drop between the controller and the batteries p,us any temperature differences. They are very good on warranties and have replaced stuff for me after the warranty had run out.
We have a Lux Power AC controller with Pylontech batteries and a 4kw solar array, but we still draw on average about 1kwh per day from the grid, even when the batteries still have ample charge, during the night we are drawing 30-50w from the grid....🤔
It'll happen with changing loads and weather. Those tenths all add up
For once I agree with all your ‘wants’ namely modularity, interchangeablity, ability to control and configure and able to get data out of it.
Very informative, thank you for making this video. It has given me a lot to think about when deciding on the best system to install at my house
It's been a month since I 1st watched this and watching again makes even more sense. Thank you for taking the time to go through all this in so much detail!
You're welcome , hoping to have an update soon but still waiting on a part . Crazy shortages
@@EVPuzzle can't wait, it's all these shortages giving me time to reassess my options.
Went from no idea, to then watching your video and believing Victron/Pylontech was the ultimate solution then a potential installer put me off and said Givenergy is the best and now... after watching your video again I am back to Victron/Pylontech as I want the same as you, I want control, modular and expandable systems which I guess comes with more hands on approach to get things working smoothly compared to a fully hands off system which would be awesome but I do like to be in control and maintain things, extending capability via Home Assistant. 🤘😎🤘
Sounds like you know what's right for you.
I've been talking to a guy called Shane at Solar energy storage LTD. He seems to know Victron really well
The new US5000 Pylontech batteries are going for about £1100 now, available in the UK in a couple of weeks.
Wow....just looking at the prices of these now, and they seem to be £1700 minimum.......BUT nowhere has any of these is stock.
If you wanted the zappi on the ups side of the inverter you could set the zappi to reduce charging at a specific maximum system current if you put a ct clamp on the output of the inverter
Exactly both Eddi and zappi could sense for 50amp limit. I often charge at 3.85kw anyway. Rarely need full power .
Installer was unsure of me putting everything else on so more to appease them. Might be a later change 😜
Hey Nigel,
Shouldn't be a need to perform the automation outside of Victron.
If you flash VenusOS Large onto your CerboGX it will come with NodeRed.
Yes ,, sizing is a tricky one, I need a year of data to see if another battery is right! Alpha 3with 8.7 kw, and 5.2 pv , thinking March to October will be fine but will there be enough sun to charge more battery’s for the 4 bad months …
Interesting video thanks
Really interesting video Nigel. You have really done your homework. Definitely got me thinking about a battery system for my new property.
Love this vid, this is your best one yet purely because I’m looking at these options to so this has come up before I’ve took the plunge, great job 👏🏾
Cheers Darren it's been a long time coming , I've had to have patience getting the right system for me.
Sometimes these videos just work, I adlib them in a few takes so it's rewarding to hear when theyre liked
Really looking forward to showing the systems performance and data.
Fantastic video from an extremely intelligent and well researched gentleman. This has helped me a lot.
I already have a 3kw installation on a solis 2.5k in inverter. I ordered another 3kws and x3 3.5 pylon batteries, a few weeks ago. pylon does look like a nice solution.
Hello Nigel, thank you for taking the time to go through your system in such detail. I am getting ready to install a very similar set-up - 5 Pylontech 3000's paired with 3 Victron MP II 5000's and your video has confirmed that this is a set-up for me. For me, it is also critical to have an instant response time as many of the home monitoring systems rely on uninterrupted power supply to function correctly. Paired with my 10 kWp solar system this will be an awesome duo allowing me and my home to function during a blackout. Thanks again!
You're welcome, I'm really pleased to see others discovering this is the right system for them too. Has its draw backs and complexities and hopefully it'll be satisfying
According to the Victron spec sheet your inverter is rated at 4000 watts at 25C, 3700 watts at 40C - so keep it cool! Also at 25C it’s rated at 5000VA and that does equal 5000 watts if the power factor is 1 for these loads. For any purely resistive load (oven, water heater etc) the PF=1. Only devices that are not PF corrected such as some induction motors will take the PF
Yeo I've read those too, other users see 3.6kw continuous so I'm not expecting more anything else is a bonus .
@@EVPuzzle I'm a bit confused about your system. You said you are running the whole house (less EV charger) though the Victron yet also said it puts out 3.6kW continuous. That's only enough to run a rapid boil kettle and a computer?
Battery + solar + grid
@@EVPuzzle Understood but I was thinking more of a grid down situation. For example; it's evening, lights are on, you've got the oven and a couple of rings going cooking dinner, someone on the computer and someone watching TV. Then there is a grid down event and everything goes off because the draw is too much for the inverter. I admit this is unlikely. I've had my off grid ability for 8 years and in all that time we've never had a power cut for me to use it :(
In an emergency of grid down I can limit our use to 3.6kw easilly. That's the oven and hob together us TV lights and internet . After sun down we typically use very little energy , our peak is during the day
Really appreciate your videos like this, you've clearly put a ton of time and thought into it - and then made (even more) time to share it with us. Just great.
I'm at the "just beginning to even think about this stuff" stage - we don't have solar pv, heatpump or home battery, but we do have an EV. I found it hard to understand why an inverter would need you to spec more batteries than you needed, how 48V batteries would have adequate voltage to take over from the grid in a power outage. And so the comments about Low Voltage vs High Voltage sort of went over my head. Will go off now to try and learn though!
A rare comment, very much appreciated, recognising the effort to share let alone to think all this stuff through.
Some great questions too. I read that high voltage was better in theory to inverter from solar directly ie.. As a DC coupled battery as the voltages were more closely aligned which explains why solaredge batteries are DC coupled and typically high voltage.
In practise having used both 48v and 400v high voltage, you don't notice a difference. Volts x amps = W.
Lower voltage wins for me as its more common place and hence likely to be more affordable.
Which is best seems irrelevant if I can't tell the difference.
More batteries for the bigger inverter is to achieve its spec of charging rates and discharge rates. Something to do with C rates? The smaller the battery capacity the lower the charge and discharge rates without damaging the battery
@@EVPuzzle The logic behind the SolarEdge high voltage battery system is that since the string voltage is held at close to 415V dc, with the battery at 400V or thereabouts there is no need to convert the dc from the string to 230V ac in the inverter, then convert the ac back to dc in the charger to charge the battery. This saves the energy wasted by conversion to heat during both processes. Can't remember what the figure they quote, but I think I read that it is around 5% or so, which over time amounts to a reasonable number of kWh...
I'm aware of what solaredge claim but their other deficiencies make it a non starter for me.
Thank you Nigel.
I’m so jealous 😆 I have a pokey 6.5kw growatt battery with 19 380w panels and two growatt inverters (5kw+2kw)
I was right , everyone wants more power
Thanks for this info. I was looking at Victron a while ago. Interesting to see you could put 3 Victron's together and have a 3 phase set up
Perfect on the farm etc
Great Nigel, another great very in-depth review, keep them coming
Wow Nigel, missed you and just chanced upon this... I'll catch-up!
Hope so then ill remember who superdiagnostic is🤦♂️🤷♂️🤣. Sounds like I'll be embarrassed
24:05 - Bet you’re glad you went with 5 batteries now with potential blackouts on the way this winter dependent on the madman in Moscow with his finger on the disconnect button.
Very pleased with that decision
@@EVPuzzle if power cuts become more newsworthy then it’d be worth you making a video on how to counter it with battery/solar as I’m sure that’ll bring your channel more traffic.
I have had no responses to my enquiries of UK companies when I wanted to ask about batteries. It seems that they are too busy to respond to requests. Curious to see videos like this, that stimulate an interest despite there being no way to enquire further!
I have ordered batteries only this week.
Have looked at battery packs like Pylontech, Jakiper, etc.
Decided to build my own with 16x 280ah LifePo4 Cells.
14KwH for £1,700 plus a £150 BMS
Will be paired with Multiplus 48/5000
Wish I had the ability to do the same
@@EVPuzzle not sure if I do yet!
Been doing allot of research and finally decided to make the purchase.
Thank you for your informative videos as usual!
@Gavin NoName I'm interested in this idea but would there be any difficulty getting certification or whatever is needed to be allowed to connect to your house/the grid?
@@HiruS22 I believe the certification is around the inverter and how it handles the connection to the Grid.
When setting up the Victron with VictronConnect app you tell it the country that you are in so it will comply to the local regs.
@@gavinnoname1424 Thanks, I'm only at the beginning of this journey, think I have a lot of research to do
Great and very helpful video
Thanks
Thanks for a thorough but very down to earth journey/review. Your approach/setup is pretty much exactly what I need...charging at cheap rates, allowing for 90% DoD a 17.5Kwh storage system would cover the vast majority of my total daily requirements (15 Kwh and around 2.5Kw peak), and I like your choice of charger/inverter and communications module. Other reviewers have used additional Victron units including shunts, multifunctional display, etc, and they seemed to be overly complex (to me at least).
One question/comment - you mentioned at great length the need for granular and customisable data (I'd be the same - I'd want to really understand how the system is performing) but did not go into the same level of detail in terms of what the Victron comms module can/can't provide. Has it met your requirements ?
I am more than happy with the Victron Multiplus II and Cerbo GX set up I have. The Victron VRM portal offers a good range of stats on all aspects of the ESS. Good luck with your installation
Fantastic video. Really keys into important points when spending your hard earned. Alot of batteries are just relabeled Chinese generics with poor support. The importers know nothing about programming embedded microcontrollers for firmware updates, but rely on Chinese factory support which may no longer exist.
Ramp up and down issues are all down to cost and complexity, Tesla gets round it by being able to dynamically integrate the grid so that the power is always coming from the Tesla system and it then pulls from the grid where necessary. Other systems are just grid connected storage where they just add power into your grid connected home. The Tesla approach is expensive and complicated to provide which is why there systems often seem quite costly compared to the competition but people don't realise benefits.
Mine does the same as the Powerwall and wasnt as expensive. There are options out there.
Very long story preamble. You finally have taken a step in the right direction. Victron is where its at for resilience of home energy use for its adaptability and reliability. Mpst other systems with hybrid inverters just don't have all these capabilities.
I agree completely with the Victron engineer however. It's not worth cycling your batteries and shortening their life for the very small bone some energy supplier will throw you for the use of them. The same goes for a two way ev charger system.
Depends on the life of your system.
If it's a lease car, it doesn't matter to you I guess
For my battery, if it lasts my life time, do I care?
I've yet to do the math but I saw a day this week where I could've made £4 net. That'll improve thru to till September so there's lots of potential to reduce payback period but yes at the expense of cycles, it all depends if you've oversized your battery enough
@
WoodyJim I don't agree, you can make an informed choice, it is an easy decision, you can approximate the cost of a cycle + Export rate vs what it would cost you to buy / replace the energy. Typically Agile export has been paying £0.50 - £0.60 at peak times, that easily covers the cycle cost let alone when it goes crazy. Last year there was a day when they were paying £2.21/KWh and if things carry on the way they are, I suspect that might be a more common occurrence.
I see it as shortening the payback and the reality is I would move withing the that time, so the quicker it comes back the better and furthermore it is better for the environment. It is at peak times they fire up the coal stations etc, so every KW you can replace with cleaner energy the better. I'm actually writing a program to make these decision based on logic and automatically sell if appropriate.
Thanks for your advice on this - really helpful and good to know ahead of going to the Fully Charged Show in April. I'm trying to size up a solar+battery configuration and then next year HT ASHP with Sunamp heat battery! So much to consider and like you say, so important to work out in detail what you need ahead of making decisions - good luck with it!
Hi, would be interested to know what panel/inverter/battery system you have chosen (or not yet decided) following your visit to Fully Charged show, I couldn’t attend as was at a race event at Brands Hatch, thanks
Thanks for the video. I’m going through the same process of figuring out everything I need. I like the Victron inverters too and the server rack batteries. Out in the Midwestern United States we use 240v (split phase) well pumps and I also want to be able to use the 240v on demand water heater at the same time. I’ll either go for 2 5kva inverters or possibly 2 10kva Victron inverters to install in a lakefront property to either sell or use as a weekend rental. That’s the plan anyway.
Just about to get my first PV and battery system installed. With the Pylontech US2000 batteries I’m getting I couldn’t find a huge amount online about them. Thanks for the reassurance that they’re not cheap tat! Good to know I can always scale them up too for a reasonable price. Excited to get up and running and start saving (and making on Agile Outgoing) some cash!
Bit confused as to why everyone is saying they are 'so cheap?' They seem to be about 950 online with the Givenergy ones about £1200? Am I missing something?
Price per kwh is pretty good and considering you can mix and match the smaller ones at around £650 each they do appear cheap
Absolutely fantastic setup. Exactly what I've been looking at doing but I've been struggling to find a decent reasonably priced AC coupled inverter to pair with at least 25kwh of Pylontech batteries but can charge them up during the 4 hour off peak Go period. The Victron kit looks good albeit the 8000VA model is a lot more expensive but we would need to be able to charge/discharge at 5kw+ but good to know they can be connected in parallel. Been looking at Luxpower inverters too that can also do the same basic functions bit struggling to find a supplier for those though. And you are totally right about always wanting more. 12 months ago we installed 6.2kw of solar. At the time that was fine for us but now I'm wanting to add a 2md array and a huge bank of batteries! 🤦🏻♂️
What did you go for in the end? I need 40 kwh of batteries and 8kw + inverter
Mate... I think I've pulled a muscle punching the air so often watching this vid!
I'd stumbled upon the Victron ESS solution a few weeks ago and the more I read the more it seemed to be the best setup BY FAR. I KNEW (hoped) you we talking about Victron from early on.
My only issue is finding an experienced installer who'll cover Northampton - I've already sent a begging email to Power Different - you never know...
Lol, like that punching the air 😉😂
My installer might bit be a fab as the hours to get this going aren't good for profit but it is one if their first with this setup. There are some complexities to the meter sensors . Experienced Victron installers are probably down the boat yards 🙄
yeh I’m in MK and would be interested in who you find
@@eliotmansfield I'll keep you posted!
I'm also in MK so would like to here of any good installers feedback. Anyone used First4Solar (have panels, just need battery)
Any update on finding anyone?
I have read that a good rule of thumb for the size of the battery bank to be checking the worst average production month and use that number (or a bit more).
Production? Hmm what do you Mean worst avg production month?
@@EVPuzzle Sorry, English is not my first language...
Worst month of production e.g. 500 kW, divide that for the number of days of that month e.g. 31, this would be the rule of thumb for the size: 16kW.
My worst month was 90kwh in December, that'd be less than 3
Usage related variables is a better starting point in my opinion
WOW, now I have a bigger headache, I am early days researching, and it is a minefield of mixed info. I want some solar, battery storage and something that just works, saves me money, and will offer good returns on my investment. I haven't gone down the electric car route yet, but that will follow. So, do I go AC or DC, I never even knew that was a choice yet.
I need a specialist who is going to be unbiased, not selling me anything, but can provide the best options for my needs. HELP!!!
Thank you for your video, it has given me even more to think about.
Absolutely Jim it's an unbiased good installer you're after BUT YOU have to know what YOU want. If you don't want to touch it and have it just work that's very different to you want to monitor it and optimise it.
Are you going to be into energy trading and Agile tariffs or is a economy 7 type tariffs as far as you'll go?
Know your data too. How much energy do you use, overnight, during the day, during winter 3 pm to 7pm etc. How many devices do you commonly use at once? Add up the kw ratings.
These sort of questions help narrow the field. An installer can recommend technically but doesn't know you and what you will want in the future. That bits down to you to figure out.
I would like to build my own solar system and your presentation will help me and others but I have seen people state that unless you get it MCS certified you will have trouble selling the house. What do you think of this statement? Are there MCS certified engineers that want to help specify the system you want or do you think that they will just want to sell you an off-the-shelf system that they already have setup?
This is exactly my concern, and I can't seem to get answers. Is everyone absolutely certain that home insurance policies are not impacted by such an installation? BTW what exactly is "MCS certified"? Maybe I'm missing something - short-sighted ignorant lazy me - but aren't the electricity suppliers getting involved in this? I mean, it's a biz opportunity. And, it's a serious benefit to the suppliers themselves - indeed the whole country - to get punters off the peak.
I've got the Multiplus-II 5000, no regrets at all, it's an excellent piece of kit.
Does yours hum too? Having to mount on rubber mounts to avoid the harmonics being heard.
Great kit though 👍
@@EVPuzzle Yep, the humming is normal.
Normal for Victron . Hoping the rubber mounts improve it
@@EVPuzzle mine came with rubber mounts. The fan is annoying, its very loud compared to what normal 12v PSU fans are. I did some research into it and found they are all quite noisy but if you take the fan out, then on it's own its very quiet, must be just down to the way it channels the air flow. Its under a spare room in our house, if we have guests then I limit the overnight charging to about 800W then it doesn't need to come on.
Curious ours didn't come with rubber mounts
Thanks for the analysis. Would love to see a video on your complete home energy setup at present.
Won't be long
I was seriously considering the Pylontech Force H2 battery with a Solax inverter.
However I went with the SolarEdge Energy Bank. My biggest reason for doing so was simply to avoid the headache of seeking out G99 DNO connection approvals all over again.
I was hesitant with the fact that the energybank is NMC rather than LFP battery chemistry, but it is offered with a 10 year warranty without limitations to number of charge cycles or depth of discharge, and that was enough for me to make a leap of faith into their technology.
Delivery is due in 'April'. So I'll be looking forward to reviewing its performance.
Reassuringly the tesja powewall is NMC too I believe , their car batteries
Similar - 10kWp of solar, feeding a 6kW Solaredge, Powerbank expected soon (It's already overdue), with a Multiplus II 5000 being fed by a 2.8kW turbine, and server rack batteries (almost certainly Pylontech as the EG4/Jakipers aren't available here).
And yes, I've been running Home Assistant for ages too (but they dont yet have a specific turbine integration)
My Solar panels have been installed since mid-April 22 and working just fine - SEW facing but getting almost the maxoim of 9 x 410W.
However, my SolarEdge Energy Bank - ordered early January 22 - are still awaited. Original date missed, end May 22 date most likely to be missed, and a new delkivery date of 'sometine in June 22. I'm not holding my breath that this will be the winner! The current downside is that I'm giving away 70% energy to the grid for free.
Good luck with your solar / battery system Anthony.
Excellent video Nigel. Many thanks. I would have loved to be able to the sort of custom setup you have worked on and the Raspberry Pi monitoring and programmability sounds really fun. Perhaps, in 10 or so years, when we need to look at the next stage, I will be able to spend the time and “play” in this manner. For now we have our off-the-shelf GivEnergy system that I am more than happy with for our immediate needs. Next will come the Eddi then the EV + Zappi and I will be happy that we are doing the best we can for now. Oh… perhaps a SE Solar PV array to go with the SW facing array we have now. Pick up those morning rays (hooray for an L shaped house).
Thank you so much for sharing these experiences.
Great video Nigel. A few Qs. 1) noise levels of the inverter and battery fans?.. 2) how do you choose the best size for the battery and inverter. 3) the inverter can take ac or dc connected solar. Does this impact agreements with DNO? Slightly confused on rules. A diagram of your setup would be great to see.
It's the noisiest inverter I've tested. Very noisey
Everything effects DNO decision, but ultimately its about what you're allowed to export. Charge and discharging rates are what you choose your inverter on. The victron 3000 will charge at 2. 4kw yet the 5000 will charge at 3.6kw
@@EVPuzzle ta for reply,
Would be great to see a video for this kit similar to the one you did for GivEnergy a year ago. Did GivEnergy software improve over the year? Was it still drawing power at night?
New Givenergy platform has just been released . Not seen it yet though to comment .
I'll be doing operational videos as soon as I can for the Victron. Just a shame the highr usage months are behind us now, my summer use will make it look overkill
Good discussion. Basically the market now is stuffing a feeding frenzy. There will be so much regret and so much man maths that falls apart as the reality of what’s been bought sinks in and a need/want to swap out and buy again. Imagine your own case if you hadn’t had the ability to borrow and test and change your mind!
Exactly
@@EVPuzzle I noticed your mainframe IT background. All that time spent investigating the claims of OEM suppliers re their compatibility etc leaves a useful skepticism and an ability to focus on what is not said (or not marketed) - me too.
It’s unusual for the public to be making a high capital value, technical, long payback decision and many will make the wrong one and lose money rather than make any return too.
I guess that's why I share in the hope it at least gets people to ask more questions
Great list of wants, interested in future videos. I do hope you get what you want.
It's looking good so far, ticking many boxes, keep following for updates when I get chance
Wow Nigel I think my head’s going to explode 🤯
I’ve been thinking about solar and thought I’d see what you’re up to and you’ve covered everything. Have you ever spoken to Spartek in Watton? They’ve given me an initial quote but are quoting for 5,10,15kw batteries, which is what you seem to indicate isn’t the way to do it.
No not heard of spartek.
I wouldn't say I don't suggest going with 5kwhs it's just how granular do you want it and what's available . Some batteries aren't as modular in reality either like puredrive
Well simply well done and congratulations. Much much better than my system. Just as a note though, your installer is now so busy they can not take on anymore domestic installs until October 2022, I tried them for my next upgrade :-( Cant find an installer in the East who has any time available actually.
I've referred quite a few people. Ooops.
Think they'll be recruiting more people and taking bigger stocks to meet demand if it continues
@@EVPuzzle That is exactly what they said. Recruiting and training. Interesting your video came out the same day as givenergy release their 9.5kw battery. But I do agree with the "quality" of giv energy products and services, lots to complain about. But I am set on my path now so have to stick to it.
You can only go with your gut feeling at the time
Great video. I have three 2.4 kWh Pylontech batteries with SoFar SE3000-sp inverter and predictably need more. I have been reluctant to 'just add one more' because I could find very little from Pylontech saying I could mix battery ages (mine have around 700 cycles). Can you please point me to information on adding batteries the way you have suggested ?
I'm only aware of others installing batteries at a later date and my own data showing the same voltage and health as from new . Installing extra batteries seems to be a non issue . Given banks of 4 are recommended us3000 there will be opportunities to mix and Match for best effect
Another useful and insightful video, can you give a view of the 'other costs' as, whilst the batteries are £1k each and converter £2k, you haven't mentioned any of the installation or electrician costs.
These costs seem to vary massively as I have had quotes to install just solar panels from £5k to £10k for the same house and panels...!
Shop round. The best thing can say. I had some one quote 50% more for exact system Know how much the materials will cost. Then you know if the quote is fair or not.
Absolutely fantastic Video, thanks for the info.
Thanks Nigel, loads of really useful information in here that I keep coming back to! I have a Victron, Home assistant and LiFePo4 off grid system which has worked brilliantly in a off grid capacity since install. I would like to couple it to the house and am wondering how you have configured your setup with change overs and disconnects to be able to continue to run the house if you had to take the Victron out of service? Thanks! Brilliant stuff.
A 1-phase grid connection greatly simplifies the setup of such a system. I actuall envy house owners that do not have to deal with the constraints of a 3-phase installation - at least when it comes to connecting PV and energy storage systems. However, I am not convinced that 48V battery systems for home installations will still be state of the art in 5 years time. When it comes to 3-phase HV battery systems, Victron unfortunately fails to deliver and it is not clear if they ever will catch up on this system architecture. And with the Pylontec Force H2 the same trusted manufacturer now can also provide modular HV battery systems. I fully agree to what you said about the superior software and off-grid/UPS backup capabilities provided by Victron, but in a 3-phase setup this needs a lot of money, installation space and copper wiring.
3 victron inverters needed I presume one each phase .
Although am I imagining it or did I read it nearly all the first phase used so you can in fact just install on the first phase ? Might be sounding rather silly here
I did used to be jealous of my European 3-phase friends, but now after putting PV and battery energy storage in I am quite thankful for a simple 100A single phase service.
You are right, it is possible to connect the Victron to just one phase. In this case only one phase would be covered by the battery backup during an outage. But the even bigger showstopper is that I must also use a 3 phase grid-connected solar inverter to feed power back to the grid. 3 phase grid providers will not allow you to connect a 5kW solar inverter to one phase to avoid unbalanced loads. So it is 3 times the cost and installation space.
Battery output is limited by Volts not Amps.
12v x 100A = 1200W,
24v x 100A = 2400W,
48v x 100A = 4800W.
48v Parallel 48v x 100A = 9600W.
Been looking at a system with a couple of the Pylontech Us3000C batteries. watching diligently 🙂
Ive got a Multiplus in my van already so comfortable with their gear.
Installer here is having more issues with the grid sensors for the critical and non critical loads
@@EVPuzzle has 'the installer' got a little shed on site that he lives in? Might be an idea if he hasn't done it yet ;-)
I keep him in coffee and cake and bacon butties, he's keen to stay 🤣
Hi Nigel. Great videos. Where did you buy your Pylontech batteries from please? I was looking at the Givenergy system but support seems very poor on the reviews and also from what you have said.
Ccl online I think
Well done... Now your garage is not a garage any more. You' d better call it a CPD.