Thank you Geoff. I've been saying this for years. Its all about ethics. It's about problem solving to integrate human life with land for maximum biodensity and bio diversity with minimal effort over time.
I’m not arguing but I have to ask, who decides the ethics? It’s a broad term based on cultural notions. What is ethical in one culture might not be ethical in another. So l who decides what is ethical?
@@dr.froghopper6711 The culture where you're designing something. It's incredibly flexible so that you match it to whatever cultural traditions you have. They've implemented these systems in traditionally Christian/pagan societies, Islamic societies, African societies, Asian societies, etc. So you build around your own cultural and ethical norms and traditions. But notice that Permaculture was created by Australians and Geoff I believe I read is originally from Britain and is now Australian (most Australians are if you go back far enough). Hence Permaculture itself is based upon European Christian traditions that emphasize love and European pagan traditions that emphasize nature. So love, nature, harmony and an eye towards the future are part of the key ethics of Permaculture, specifically because its creators are the inheritors of Christian and pagan traditions. But they've also studied systems from every part of the world so they really apply universally when designed with the local people in mind. It's like a set of best practices.
Thank you for your explanation. I am from the Philippines. I intend to establish a food forest. And I will adopt the principles and ethics of permaculture.
Nice to see another video up. Yeah, it doesn't really matter what label someone puts on something they do, if it lines up with the ethics and goals of permaculture, then it's permaculture. You can call it restoration agriculture, agroforestry, holistic land management, etc, if the design of the land is focusing on long term soil building, long term ecosystem restoration, then it's permaculture.
Geoff you are a terrific teacher - because I remember what you told us 6 years ago. I took the 2015 online PDC. As you were reading the question I was already thinking about the wardrobe and the ethics. Thank you for continuing to share this knowledge, but more importantly, to empower people with confidence. I needed this video today to remind me that this knowledge and wisdom is worth knowing and using - it is vital for our continued survival.
Brilliant analogy, and easy to remember and convey. The content of your wardrobe is going to look slightly different according to you location and circumstances.
And every once in a while it's good to take a look into that wardrobe, find that old tweed jacket and think "why on earth do I have this thing" and compost it. A few years ago I did an inventory check of the shed. Right in the back is the rototiller. No need for that thing anymore. Bye bye "tweed jacket".
Hi Geoff . I took your online course a few years back and met you once at a farm in California. Been working on my own property for the last 3 years. Just did my first real consultation yesterday!The owner and I will be putting in a quarter acre fish pond and a large swale system. I’m so excited to get to work on this project. Thanks for everything!
There are so many hangers nowadays that fits into permaculture. What's obvious is that we don't need to destroy the soil, the environment and cause the death of all the creatures connected to Nature because everything plays a very important role. We can have it all without causing any destruction! What Jeoff has done in Jordan is an outstanding example for all! I love you Geoff, thanks for your contribution to the planet, humanity and all the earthlings! 💖🙏😀🌎😊🤗😁😘🌍
Groovy wardrobe analogy... because it's much more than land care. It's also about what one regards as ethical in terms of: lifestyle, people care, city planning, work, energy flows, resiliency, exploitation of resources, waste management, health, housing, services, education...
When focusing on the growing of food, the best clothing/tool now imo is "ecological agriculture" ("agriculture" being understood as gardening or farming). This way, one can focus on the ecological impacts of their food growing efforts, the main ones being soil and watershed health, and biodiversity.
the reality of it is that there are no differences between holistic management, permaculture, syntropic agriculture. What these things really are is a philosophy of agriculture. They all seek to go WITH nature, not against it.
I remember Bill using the wardrobe and hanger metaphor to explain the relationship between biodynamics and permaculture during an early PDC in Perth 1983 and he also went on to talk about how Fukuoka added strategy to PC design. You could say Fukuoka was just organic gardening but he made balls. That would be equally superficial to saying Syntropic agriculture is forest gardening but in straight lines. Just as seed balls the sometimes strait lines are part of a wide range of syntropic strategies which are missing in 'design'. As a PC teacher I do manage a syntropy system sometimes on contour and where needed slightly off contour. That does not make it less 'syntropic'. I guess some just cloth hangers are darn complex. K
I love permaculture design principals and have employed many of them in the decade plus long design of my property. The problem with permaculture are those who strive to make a nickel by minting "experts" who have no hope of walking onto a property and understanding all of its complexities. Long time subscriber and appreciate what you do Geoff, but there are those running around claiming to be design experts, charging big bucks for their services, only to leave disappointed clients. This is going to ruin the concept of permaculture. A prerequisite of becoming a designer should be designing your own property as a model for a specific geoclimate.
My understanding of holistic management is not only associated with animals on land. It’s a decision making framework taking in social, environmental and financial aspects. Living organisms such as cattle for example are merely a tool to use within your context. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Woah, so it's kind of like a meta-paradigm, and you do what works with the core ethics in mind, I guess? I was afraid it "competes" with regen and other things, but now I see it accepts those where they work and organizes them. Permaculture is awesome! Thanks for the explanation Geoff :)
Forget about Bill Gates and Elon Musk. 😒 Geoff lawton is the most important man in the world and on the internet in our age of economical and ecological decline. 🙏
I know the regenerative agriculture is based on Perma culture. The reason it works is the balance between animals and cover crops. It definitely works for using the land for raising animals but it is only a small part of the picture.
Hello, what email can be used to discuss a dedicated cooperation for a national food forest permaculture activity that is already going on in the island of Sardegna?
Hello Geoff, I admit I’m intrigued by the Syntropic claims, but I have some healthy scepticism because I can’t find any writing kin English and the videos assume an unstated background. I do think Holistic Management does add something, primarily to arid land management and building decision strategies with feed-back loops. Obviously, by virtue of the many practitioners over many years who write and video there is heaps of resource materials on Permaculture.
Interesting, thanks! I believe that ability to grasp how a systematic approach works gains to be extended to as many people as possible but as of today at least, this number of people is a minority. Therefore, to advertise permaculture out there, people require a pre-chewed declination of permaculture (which can sometime lack concrete examples in a given context although it's gone a long way since the 80s) and that's what the regenerative and syntropic agricultures are : permaculture techniques and approach adapted to a more specific set of contexts. The longer permaculture exists, the more variants there's going to be. That's waht I like with permaculture: you can virtually plug as many variants, versions and approach as you like as long as they fit with the permaculture vision.
How I respond in this conversation is much like I respond to the many contexts I’d find myself in. This includes whom I might be speaking with and how they might bring themselves to the conversation on a broader level. For example.... mentioning permaculture to folks can leave very different reactions or inform in different ways. Whereas many don’t know about syntropic, key line and agro-?????..... this is all language, yes? Okay, what language works best given the situation, the people or the concepts being conveyed?
I like Geoff's content a lot and I am a Permaculture enthusiast! But in regard to this subject, where he talks about Syntropic Agriculture, he explained it in a very simplistic way. Ernst Götsch Cocoa plantation for example (and many other plantations in this style) is not done only in straight lines. It is very adaptable and works in very different climates as well it is not suitable only for tropical ones. His plantation in the state of Bahia-Brazil is not done in straight lines and it is merged into the forest with excellent productivity much higher than conventional agriculture. Unfortunately, the content showing it is in Portuguese language only. So, there is a big language barrier to people getting to know Syntropic Agriculture. Moreover, it seems that for the *Big agriculture* the Syntropic way is more suitable than Permaculture. Ernst is developing new machines that are adaptable to Syntropic agriculture aiming to cultivate big lands of Soy and cotton here in Brazil. I do not know how Permaculture would do that on a gigantic scale. Some, big land owners in Brazil have been interested in the Syntropic way, but they need to have big productivity. According to Ernst, the big obstacle until now is not having the right machines to do the Syntropic way in great productivity and efficiency.
I was thinking the same, regarding the oversimplistic explanation of syntropic agroforestry. It’s a shame about the language barrier, as I think there could be some exciting cross pollination of ideas between the two schools of thought. You’re right about the more commercial focus of syntropic agroforestry though. You mentioned Ernst Götsch’s cocoa plantation with rows that are not on straight lines. Do you know if it, or any other examples of syntropic agroforestry, where the rows follow the contour lines of the landscape? I’m very interested in this idea for my dry climate here in South Australia, but most of the information I’m finding is specific to wet tropical and subtropical climates.
@@guywhitworth5764 Hi Guy, fortunately, I have come back to this video and I saw your comment. RUclips did not send me any notifications. So, about your question, Ernst Götsch created his syntropic farming in the state of Bahia (localized in the northeastern part of Brazil) and he did not follow the straight lines on it, at least not in all his huge land. The climate in this state is very tropical, but in some areas of this huge state, the climate can be also dry. Moreover, Ernst helped one of his students to create a syntropic farming in this dry land and it worked completely. In the beginning, they planted in straight lines, but as the semi-arid forest become denser the shape changed to more circular and diverse. This drier land is known as Caatinga (it is a type of semi-arid tropical vegetation and it's the only exclusively Brazilian biome, which means that a large part of its biological heritage cannot be found anywhere else on the planet). There are some videos of Syntropic Farming on the Caatinga climate on the youtube channel called ''CEPEAS'', but it's only in the Portuguese language made by one of the Ernst students. They are producing right now a series of free episodes of syntropic farming on Caatinga - until now there are 9 free episodes. If you search on youtube by ''Caatinga CEPEAS'' - you will find some videos. But there is a language barrier. And the tree species are different from Australia's dry land (I'm guessing). Probably you already know... But I have found an Ernst group of students that teaches Syntropic Farming in Australia. They give many courses and workshops there. The name of their company is "Syntropic Solutions". They have a website syntropicsolutions (dot) com, an Instagram page, and a Facebook page with the company's name. I guess that it is a lot easier to consult them because they already know your climate, soil type, tree species, etc. Brazilian dry land (caatinga) only exists here in the world, so it's probably not compatible with the same tree species.
@@nlptrader8320 Yes, I'm watching the CEPEAS series about Syntropic Agriculture in drylands and it is amazing. CEPEAS means Syntropic Agriculture Research Center. They have a lot of information on their youtube channel. There are some projects to try Syntropic Agriculture in bigger lands right now and Fernando Rebello (CEPEAS host guy on youtube) said that they need modified machines to do Syntropic in a very efficient way.
@@guywhitworth5764 As NLP Trader said in the reply above. There is a group of Ernst students in Australia that give courses and workshops all around Australia about Syntropic Agriculture. Their company name is Syntropic Solutions. There is an interview made by an Australian youtube channel called Earth Heroes TV with Thiago Barbosa (Syntropic Solutions coach). The name of the video is Syntropic Solutions with Thiago Barbosa. And on their website there is a schedule with all their trainings dates and locations.
How can we be sure that the designed system is most efficient? Is there any research on comparing the production of Permacultural System and conventional monocultural grain farming?
Exactly my thoughts. Permaculture is a wholistic system that could use any of the other specific 'techniques'. They do not address water management, soil management, integrating the different types of ecosystems into a whole system, the integration of human needs and natural systems needs, and much more.
I agree in the most part with Geoff, however his understanding of Holistic Management is limited. He described Holistic Planned Grazing, a coat hanger in the Holistic management wardrobe. Other hangers are Holistic Decision making, Holistic financial planning and Holistic land management. At the core of Holistic management is the Holistic decision making framework, which is a aid to any human, (land manager and anybody else) to create a holistic context to help manage the complexity of life ...
Just an optics argument which doesn't matter really, but I think calling it by the long name and saying permanent agriculture has more of an easy understanding whilst fitting in the other naming schemes pretty well. At least I'm gonna say it probably from now on, but just because I sometimes also got a small "cringy" feeling when communicating it to others under permaculture As I said this doesn't matter at all but is just a thought i wanted to share :)
I agree with Geoff, except, when you are working for a client, you are not always asked to help with designing a house or with designing a complete system, most often the client wants just one thing and that is land management. Because "permaculture" is viewed as a ridiculous hippy idea by many farmers who already have their houses, septic, etc built, they need to be coddled into change, for that, "regenerative farming" is a term they can relate to. So, how you explain things to your client, depends on what the client wants, and how you can best help them.
The idea is that you are clear what permaculture is and you use that type of thinking to resolve the clients requirements and perhaps you extend the client's vision of what is possible by multifunction and resiliency planning.
@@annburge291 if i understand you, yes, exactly, but, perhaps you leave the term "permaculture" out of it until you succeed with the clients needs first.
@@annburge291 all people have prejudices. it is how we are wired, not always bad, but hard to break thru when so many people believe in something. it is just easier to work with someone when you do not denigrate their belief systems, and prove something by actual results first.
@@richardruss7481 Try and forget about breaking through and the preferred solution...in design there is no perfect solution because the preferred solution for one thing conflicts with the solution for something else.. for example passive thermal design (large windows to capture solar energy) can conflict with natural lighting solutions ( because these windows show up all the dirt on the glass and why limit the fantastic view to the west) design for wheel chair accessibility (ramps) conflict with walking ambulant disabled (these people prefer steps)...acid car batteries for electric fencing Vs Lithium batteries ( political interference and economic sanctions )... it's your role as a designer and advisor to map out the most ethical solutions. How you involve the client and work with them to establish their needs (distinguishing them from wants) makes the permaculture design advisor different from other designers. It's the type of conversations you embark on that makes you valuable... because nothing is taken as given.
@@annburge291 your analogies do not fit with the question at hand, the "perfect" solution does not exist, and to present anything as such to a client is unrealistic, i agree. but the best solution for a client is a very different thing. You must first gain their trust, before trying to convince them of any other "ridiculous hippy ideas". You must listen to your client first. Talk comes much later.
The wardrobe analogy is nice and I appreciate your work and other permaculture pioneers as well as the overarching transdisciplinary concept foundations deeply - just, how you depict syntropic ag with "straight lines" is quite out of place. What would be a short description that expresses how much different approaches can learn from each other resp. serve different contexts and realities any transition has to deal with? Scaling up visionary/pioneer work always needs to be viable in two contradicting systems: the envisioned system and the socio-economic realities of e.g. current (food-)systems. Syntropic ag developed from observations and derived principles - just like the land use fraction of permaculture - very far from straight lines until the question came up how to transition, and to scale up (agro)biodiverse food growing for (peri)urban areas while maintaining viability in both systems, the vision and the reality - ideally without relying on excessive volunteer work resp. income from courses with most participants heading for consultant jobs, not their own productive farm - which I observe in many permaculture farms here.
Yes, I like Geoff's content a lot and I am a Permaculture enthusiast! But in regard to this subject, where he talks about Syntropic Agriculture, he explained it in a very simplistic way. Ernst Götsch Cocoa plantation for example (and many other plantations in this style) is not done only in straight lines. Sometimes quite the opposite. It is very adaptable. Unfortunately, the content showing it is in Portuguese language only. So, there is a big language barrier to people getting to know Syntropic Agriculture. Moreover, it seems that for the *big agriculture* the Syntropic way is more suitable than Permaculture. Ernst is developing new machines that are adaptable to Syntropic agriculture aiming to cultivate big lands of Soy here in Brazil. I do not know how Permaculture would do that on a gigantic scale. Some, big land owners here in Brazil have been interested in the Syntropic way, but they need to have big productivity. According to Ernst, the big obstacle until now is not having the right machines to do the Syntropic way in great productivity and efficiency.
Hi Geoff, I’ve seen a plot of land available in Spain. It’s about 120 acres and I’m thinking of buying it and starting a permaculture farm. I do have concerns over how quick I can start earning money because the land is very bare and dry. I suppose my question is - How long does it take to achieve the right level of water retention required to have a profitable and fruitful farm in a place like Spain?
Hello. I live in Portugal, which is right next door, and maybe I can give you some help in this matter. But for that, as the climate is very different along the Iberian peninsula, I need to know, at least, in which region of Spain the terrain is located.
@@PedroReisR Thank you Pedro, it is greatly appreciated. there are a few I'm looking at in Murcia and Almeria. It seems as though they are very dry and one already has an almond orchard. I'd be keen to know how long it could potentially take to achieve the right water retention and what kind of vegetables/fruit are recommended to make it profitable? It's also worth noting that I am keen for a challenge. I am keen to do this in an area where locals feel it might not be achievable. I want to make an impact.
@@JasonLockwood87 If you are looking for something that is not easy, Murcia and Almeria are quite a challenge. My land is located in the Lisbon area where the annual rainfall distribution is similar to that of Murcia and Almeria but it rains about two to two and a half times more. Temperatures in Murcia and Almeria are three degrees higher in winter, and six degrees higher in summer, than in Lisbon. However, in higher altitude areas in the Sierra Nevada or elsewhere, temperatures are milder. In my experience, here it is possible to plant directly on land impoverished by conventional farming practices, peach, pear, apple, orange, plum, cherry, cherry, pomegranate, loquat, chestnut, hazel, walnut, fig, almond, mulberry, rowan and vines, planting in the fall or winter and watering only the first summer if necessary. I use oaks, myrica faya, alders, elaeagnus ebbingei and umbellata, broom, oleander, cacti, albizia and various spontaneous plants as supporting plants to obtain biomass, fix nitrogen and create shade. I do not use swales because even in the most intense rains I did not observe superficial runoff. Under the above conditions, vegetative growth and entry into production are slower between two to four years than if organic fertilizer is mixed in the planting pit and watering is extended to the first three summers, but my objective was to find the minimum conditions for implantation as this is particularly relevant if the area to be implanted is large. Another way to speed up the process is to use supporting plants in high density right from the start as I am doing now. Depending on the altitude at which the land you buy is located, the implantation may have some similarities to the one I'm doing, but it will probably be more like this: ruclips.net/channel/UCSax3rj--OBIbgdtYepOsQw
@@PedroReisR thank you so much for the information Pedro. I don’t think Geoff could have answered that any better himself. There’s a lot for me to think about. You should start a channel so that I can see some of your work. You clearly know what you’re talking about. Best of luck with what you’re doing and again thanks for your support.
Holistic management is a decision making framework. Holistic planned grazing is just a part of it that it is most famous for. It is definitely not just about ranch land, that would be like saying permaculture is about swales ;-)
Your a real life super hero love all ur work all u share so greatful for ur life's work u are a epic hero Can u please make video with Paul stamits let's save the bees food forest full of mushrooms Old grow food forests
It seems obvious to me, PermaCulture is the design tool, the others are application tools. I tend to start from Keyline, but I could start from Holistic or PermaCulture. PermaCulture is about PEOPLEs use and input to the environment AND applies in EVERY environment, from Inner City urban to wide open pastoral.
Mollison Permaculture Designer Manual is the most important, then Holmgren books, Carol Deppe's books, Mark Shepard & Masanobu Fukuoka. Combine with modern knowledge of the soil and then put in your 10,000 hrs.
Sorry you don't understand syntropic agroforestry. Permaculture is only permanent.syntropic is way more than that. It is the fastest way to get to abundance without input. You can use it for everything nof just food forest. And no you don't have to grow in lines. You should learn a bit more about it.
@@bigdog1391 Other ways of thinking such as magical, non-scientific and region-specific. Permaculture dilutes its academic credentials by holding lesser agricultural systems up as equals, though they tend to be devoid of any design or science.
@@bigdog1391 There was zero criticism. Zero. Each and every other “name-tagged” coat hanger has an important place in the permaculture wardrobe. For example, a desertification programme in one part of the dry world, whether approached “holistically”, geographically or with ancient tribal/religious/modern cancel culture attitudes... can all be brought together. All viewpoints recognised. Such an approach wouldn’t necessarily work in a tropical rainforest or on Mount Everest. An example (that might inflame your attitude or .... help you understand the complexities).... The “peace to prosperity” roadmap for the Middle East included every single existing permaculture “coat hanger” for each narrow minded agriculture “know-it-all” but also included face-saving, dignity, hope, financial independence, education and a halt to foreign interference in Middle East affairs. I call that PERMaculture. But hey, I’m just a dumb blonde with wide open eyes. My biggest fault is having zero patience with narrow minded bigots who think it’s best to ignore, then cancel history and science, and latch onto a baseless phenomenon that merely supports revamped plantation politics control.
Thank you Geoff. I've been saying this for years. Its all about ethics. It's about problem solving to integrate human life with land for maximum biodensity and bio diversity with minimal effort over time.
I’m not arguing but I have to ask, who decides the ethics? It’s a broad term based on cultural notions. What is ethical in one culture might not be ethical in another. So l who decides what is ethical?
@@dr.froghopper6711 The culture where you're designing something. It's incredibly flexible so that you match it to whatever cultural traditions you have. They've implemented these systems in traditionally Christian/pagan societies, Islamic societies, African societies, Asian societies, etc. So you build around your own cultural and ethical norms and traditions.
But notice that Permaculture was created by Australians and Geoff I believe I read is originally from Britain and is now Australian (most Australians are if you go back far enough). Hence Permaculture itself is based upon European Christian traditions that emphasize love and European pagan traditions that emphasize nature. So love, nature, harmony and an eye towards the future are part of the key ethics of Permaculture, specifically because its creators are the inheritors of Christian and pagan traditions.
But they've also studied systems from every part of the world so they really apply universally when designed with the local people in mind. It's like a set of best practices.
Excellent! Only a master with complete subject expertise could answer so completely and simply. I'm so grateful to have such a wonderful teacher!
Thank you for your explanation. I am from the Philippines. I intend to establish a food forest. And I will adopt the principles and ethics of permaculture.
Awesome, I wish you great success.
Nice to see another video up. Yeah, it doesn't really matter what label someone puts on something they do, if it lines up with the ethics and goals of permaculture, then it's permaculture. You can call it restoration agriculture, agroforestry, holistic land management, etc, if the design of the land is focusing on long term soil building, long term ecosystem restoration, then it's permaculture.
Geoff you are a terrific teacher - because I remember what you told us 6 years ago. I took the 2015 online PDC. As you were reading the question I was already thinking about the wardrobe and the ethics. Thank you for continuing to share this knowledge, but more importantly, to empower people with confidence. I needed this video today to remind me that this knowledge and wisdom is worth knowing and using - it is vital for our continued survival.
Brilliant analogy, and easy to remember and convey. The content of your wardrobe is going to look slightly different according to you location and circumstances.
And every once in a while it's good to take a look into that wardrobe, find that old tweed jacket and think "why on earth do I have this thing" and compost it. A few years ago I did an inventory check of the shed. Right in the back is the rototiller. No need for that thing anymore. Bye bye "tweed jacket".
@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Cool to see you here. Do you watch Rob's discovery, too?
Geoff, you make the world a nicer place. All the best from Croatia, EU.
@Whatsapp +❶❻❸❶❸❹❶❹❹⓿❽ Neither Geoff nor me do this for profit.
Geoff, really appreciate the work you do. Love the analogies.
Hi Geoff . I took your online course a few years back and met you once at a farm in California. Been working on my own property for the last 3 years. Just did my first real consultation yesterday!The owner and I will be putting in a quarter acre fish pond and a large swale system. I’m so excited to get to work on this project. Thanks for everything!
There are so many hangers nowadays that fits into permaculture. What's obvious is that we don't need to destroy the soil, the environment and cause the death of all the creatures connected to Nature because everything plays a very important role. We can have it all without causing any destruction!
What Jeoff has done in Jordan is an outstanding example for all!
I love you Geoff, thanks for your contribution to the planet, humanity and all the earthlings!
💖🙏😀🌎😊🤗😁😘🌍
If it complies with all the principles of permaculture, then its a good addition to the tool set of permaculture.
Groovy wardrobe analogy... because it's much more than land care. It's also about what one regards as ethical in terms of: lifestyle, people care, city planning, work, energy flows, resiliency, exploitation of resources, waste management, health, housing, services, education...
When focusing on the growing of food, the best clothing/tool now imo is "ecological agriculture" ("agriculture" being understood as gardening or farming). This way, one can focus on the ecological impacts of their food growing efforts, the main ones being soil and watershed health, and biodiversity.
Wonderful explanation! Also very useful to explain permaculture to interested people in a kind of short way🙂
the reality of it is that there are no differences between holistic management, permaculture, syntropic agriculture. What these things really are is a philosophy of agriculture.
They all seek to go WITH nature, not against it.
I remember Bill using the wardrobe and hanger metaphor to explain the relationship between biodynamics and permaculture during an early PDC in Perth 1983 and he also went on to talk about how Fukuoka added strategy to PC design.
You could say Fukuoka was just organic gardening but he made balls. That would be equally superficial to saying Syntropic agriculture is forest gardening but in straight lines. Just as seed balls the sometimes strait lines are part of a wide range of syntropic strategies which are missing in 'design'.
As a PC teacher I do manage a syntropy system sometimes on contour and where needed slightly off contour. That does not make it less 'syntropic'.
I guess some just cloth hangers are darn complex.
K
Well, you can fit alot of ties on a coat hanger😉
I love permaculture design principals and have employed many of them in the decade plus long design of my property. The problem with permaculture are those who strive to make a nickel by minting "experts" who have no hope of walking onto a property and understanding all of its complexities. Long time subscriber and appreciate what you do Geoff, but there are those running around claiming to be design experts, charging big bucks for their services, only to leave disappointed clients. This is going to ruin the concept of permaculture. A prerequisite of becoming a designer should be designing your own property as a model for a specific geoclimate.
My understanding of holistic management is not only associated with animals on land. It’s a decision making framework taking in social, environmental and financial aspects. Living organisms such as cattle for example are merely a tool to use within your context. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Well said. Those descriptions are more marketing descriptions than sustainable concepts anyway.
Woah, so it's kind of like a meta-paradigm, and you do what works with the core ethics in mind, I guess? I was afraid it "competes" with regen and other things, but now I see it accepts those where they work and organizes them. Permaculture is awesome! Thanks for the explanation Geoff :)
Love the similarity to a wardrobe. Good example Geoff!
This man is a treasure. When I buy my land I am going to fly him in to help me design more than 100acres!
Forget about Bill Gates and Elon Musk. 😒
Geoff lawton is the most important man in the world and on the internet in our age of economical and ecological decline. 🙏
Yeah man, i wish i can absorb all his knowledge 😁
I would be happy with a student. Someone that has taken his course and learned it very well.
Good luck, tried that already. He's in demand and not bad easier with global lockdown
@@bbob288 don't compare those selfish with this legend
Excellent question and awesome answer! Makes it clear immediately
That was SO helpful. Thank you very much! I love the emphasis on 'ethical'.
I know the regenerative agriculture is based on Perma culture. The reason it works is the balance between animals and cover crops. It definitely works for using the land for raising animals but it is only a small part of the picture.
Another great simplified explanation Geoff. Thanks for taking the time to share.
Hello, what email can be used to discuss a dedicated cooperation for a national food forest permaculture activity that is already going on in the island of Sardegna?
HI Geoff , will you come one day to Egypt,
The Permaculture Wardrobe. Helpful analogy, Geoff. "Begin with ethics. We are an ethics-designed science."
I have been researching and writing as well as testing my “urban housing wordrobe kit”.
Hello Geoff, I admit I’m intrigued by the Syntropic claims, but I have some healthy scepticism because I can’t find any writing kin English and the videos assume an unstated background. I do think Holistic Management does add something, primarily to arid land management and building decision strategies with feed-back loops. Obviously, by virtue of the many practitioners over many years who write and video there is heaps of resource materials on Permaculture.
Interesting, thanks! I believe that ability to grasp how a systematic approach works gains to be extended to as many people as possible but as of today at least, this number of people is a minority. Therefore, to advertise permaculture out there, people require a pre-chewed declination of permaculture (which can sometime lack concrete examples in a given context although it's gone a long way since the 80s) and that's what the regenerative and syntropic agricultures are : permaculture techniques and approach adapted to a more specific set of contexts. The longer permaculture exists, the more variants there's going to be. That's waht I like with permaculture: you can virtually plug as many variants, versions and approach as you like as long as they fit with the permaculture vision.
Been waiting for a comparison video like this for some time....thanks, Geoff !!!
How I respond in this conversation is much like I respond to the many contexts I’d find myself in. This includes whom I might be speaking with and how they might bring themselves to the conversation on a broader level. For example.... mentioning permaculture to folks can leave very different reactions or inform in different ways. Whereas many don’t know about syntropic, key line and agro-?????..... this is all language, yes? Okay, what language works best given the situation, the people or the concepts being conveyed?
Great explanation 🥰 Blessings Gerowyn
Great video Geoff, thanks for the simple analogy 😁
The Netflix show called KISS THE GROUND talk about Regenerative Agriculture. And soil health in general
I like Geoff's content a lot and I am a Permaculture enthusiast! But in regard to this subject, where he talks about Syntropic Agriculture, he explained it in a very simplistic way. Ernst Götsch Cocoa plantation for example (and many other plantations in this style) is not done only in straight lines. It is very adaptable and works in very different climates as well it is not suitable only for tropical ones. His plantation in the state of Bahia-Brazil is not done in straight lines and it is merged into the forest with excellent productivity much higher than conventional agriculture. Unfortunately, the content showing it is in Portuguese language only. So, there is a big language barrier to people getting to know Syntropic Agriculture.
Moreover, it seems that for the *Big agriculture* the Syntropic way is more suitable than Permaculture. Ernst is developing new machines that are adaptable to Syntropic agriculture aiming to cultivate big lands of Soy and cotton here in Brazil. I do not know how Permaculture would do that on a gigantic scale. Some, big land owners in Brazil have been interested in the Syntropic way, but they need to have big productivity. According to Ernst, the big obstacle until now is not having the right machines to do the Syntropic way in great productivity and efficiency.
I was thinking the same, regarding the oversimplistic explanation of syntropic agroforestry. It’s a shame about the language barrier, as I think there could be some exciting cross pollination of ideas between the two schools of thought. You’re right about the more commercial focus of syntropic agroforestry though. You mentioned Ernst Götsch’s cocoa plantation with rows that are not on straight lines. Do you know if it, or any other examples of syntropic agroforestry, where the rows follow the contour lines of the landscape? I’m very interested in this idea for my dry climate here in South Australia, but most of the information I’m finding is specific to wet tropical and subtropical climates.
@@guywhitworth5764 Hi Guy, fortunately, I have come back to this video and I saw your comment. RUclips did not send me any notifications. So, about your question, Ernst Götsch created his syntropic farming in the state of Bahia (localized in the northeastern part of Brazil) and he did not follow the straight lines on it, at least not in all his huge land. The climate in this state is very tropical, but in some areas of this huge state, the climate can be also dry. Moreover, Ernst helped one of his students to create a syntropic farming in this dry land and it worked completely. In the beginning, they planted in straight lines, but as the semi-arid forest become denser the shape changed to more circular and diverse.
This drier land is known as Caatinga (it is a type of semi-arid tropical vegetation and it's the only exclusively Brazilian biome, which means that a large part of its biological heritage cannot be found anywhere else on the planet).
There are some videos of Syntropic Farming on the Caatinga climate on the youtube channel called ''CEPEAS'', but it's only in the Portuguese language made by one of the Ernst students. They are producing right now a series of free episodes of syntropic farming on Caatinga - until now there are 9 free episodes. If you search on youtube by ''Caatinga CEPEAS'' - you will find some videos. But there is a language barrier. And the tree species are different from Australia's dry land (I'm guessing).
Probably you already know... But I have found an Ernst group of students that teaches Syntropic Farming in Australia. They give many courses and workshops there. The name of their company is "Syntropic Solutions". They have a website syntropicsolutions (dot) com, an Instagram page, and a Facebook page with the company's name. I guess that it is a lot easier to consult them because they already know your climate, soil type, tree species, etc. Brazilian dry land (caatinga) only exists here in the world, so it's probably not compatible with the same tree species.
@@nlptrader8320 Yes, I'm watching the CEPEAS series about Syntropic Agriculture in drylands and it is amazing. CEPEAS means Syntropic Agriculture Research Center. They have a lot of information on their youtube channel. There are some projects to try Syntropic Agriculture in bigger lands right now and Fernando Rebello (CEPEAS host guy on youtube) said that they need modified machines to do Syntropic in a very efficient way.
@@guywhitworth5764 As NLP Trader said in the reply above. There is a group of Ernst students in Australia that give courses and workshops all around Australia about Syntropic Agriculture. Their company name is Syntropic Solutions. There is an interview made by an Australian youtube channel called Earth Heroes TV with Thiago Barbosa (Syntropic Solutions coach). The name of the video is Syntropic Solutions with Thiago Barbosa. And on their website there is a schedule with all their trainings dates and locations.
Love your logical explanations!
How can we be sure that the designed system is most efficient? Is there any research on comparing the production of Permacultural System and conventional monocultural grain farming?
exactly what I need, thanks Geoff❤️👍
Exactly my thoughts. Permaculture is a wholistic system that could use any of the other specific 'techniques'. They do not address water management, soil management, integrating the different types of ecosystems into a whole system, the integration of human needs and natural systems needs, and much more.
I agree in the most part with Geoff, however his understanding of Holistic Management is limited. He described Holistic Planned Grazing, a coat hanger in the Holistic management wardrobe. Other hangers are Holistic Decision making, Holistic financial planning and Holistic land management. At the core of Holistic management is the Holistic decision making framework, which is a aid to any human, (land manager and anybody else) to create a holistic context to help manage the complexity of life ...
Inspirational as always.
Do a video about clothing storage solutions.
Great and very comprehensive ansver; Thank you!
Just an optics argument which doesn't matter really, but I think calling it by the long name and saying permanent agriculture has more of an easy understanding whilst fitting in the other naming schemes pretty well. At least I'm gonna say it probably from now on, but just because I sometimes also got a small "cringy" feeling when communicating it to others under permaculture
As I said this doesn't matter at all but is just a thought i wanted to share :)
I agree with Geoff, except, when you are working for a client, you are not always asked to help with designing a house or with designing a complete system, most often the client wants just one thing and that is land management. Because "permaculture" is viewed as a ridiculous hippy idea by many farmers who already have their houses, septic, etc built, they need to be coddled into change, for that, "regenerative farming" is a term they can relate to. So, how you explain things to your client, depends on what the client wants, and how you can best help them.
The idea is that you are clear what permaculture is and you use that type of thinking to resolve the clients requirements and perhaps you extend the client's vision of what is possible by multifunction and resiliency planning.
@@annburge291 if i understand you, yes, exactly, but, perhaps you leave the term "permaculture" out of it until you succeed with the clients needs first.
@@annburge291 all people have prejudices. it is how we are wired, not always bad, but hard to break thru when so many people believe in something. it is just easier to work with someone when you do not denigrate their belief systems, and prove something by actual results first.
@@richardruss7481 Try and forget about breaking through and the preferred solution...in design there is no perfect solution because the preferred solution for one thing conflicts with the solution for something else.. for example passive thermal design (large windows to capture solar energy) can conflict with natural lighting solutions ( because these windows show up all the dirt on the glass and why limit the fantastic view to the west) design for wheel chair accessibility (ramps) conflict with walking ambulant disabled (these people prefer steps)...acid car batteries for electric fencing Vs Lithium batteries ( political interference and economic sanctions )... it's your role as a designer and advisor to map out the most ethical solutions. How you involve the client and work with them to establish their needs (distinguishing them from wants) makes the permaculture design advisor different from other designers. It's the type of conversations you embark on that makes you valuable... because nothing is taken as given.
@@annburge291 your analogies do not fit with the question at hand, the "perfect" solution does not exist, and to present anything as such to a client is unrealistic, i agree. but the best solution for a client is a very different thing. You must first gain their trust, before trying to convince them of any other "ridiculous hippy ideas". You must listen to your client first. Talk comes much later.
thank you
The wardrobe analogy is nice and I appreciate your work and other permaculture pioneers as well as the overarching transdisciplinary concept foundations deeply - just, how you depict syntropic ag with "straight lines" is quite out of place. What would be a short description that expresses how much different approaches can learn from each other resp. serve different contexts and realities any transition has to deal with? Scaling up visionary/pioneer work always needs to be viable in two contradicting systems: the envisioned system and the socio-economic realities of e.g. current (food-)systems. Syntropic ag developed from observations and derived principles - just like the land use fraction of permaculture - very far from straight lines until the question came up how to transition, and to scale up (agro)biodiverse food growing for (peri)urban areas while maintaining viability in both systems, the vision and the reality - ideally without relying on excessive volunteer work resp. income from courses with most participants heading for consultant jobs, not their own productive farm - which I observe in many permaculture farms here.
Yes, I like Geoff's content a lot and I am a Permaculture enthusiast! But in regard to this subject, where he talks about Syntropic Agriculture, he explained it in a very simplistic way. Ernst Götsch Cocoa plantation for example (and many other plantations in this style) is not done only in straight lines. Sometimes quite the opposite. It is very adaptable. Unfortunately, the content showing it is in Portuguese language only. So, there is a big language barrier to people getting to know Syntropic Agriculture.
Moreover, it seems that for the *big agriculture* the Syntropic way is more suitable than Permaculture. Ernst is developing new machines that are adaptable to Syntropic agriculture aiming to cultivate big lands of Soy here in Brazil. I do not know how Permaculture would do that on a gigantic scale. Some, big land owners here in Brazil have been interested in the Syntropic way, but they need to have big productivity. According to Ernst, the big obstacle until now is not having the right machines to do the Syntropic way in great productivity and efficiency.
Hi Geoff, I’ve seen a plot of land available in Spain. It’s about 120 acres and I’m thinking of buying it and starting a permaculture farm. I do have concerns over how quick I can start earning money because the land is very bare and dry. I suppose my question is - How long does it take to achieve the right level of water retention required to have a profitable and fruitful farm in a place like Spain?
Hello. I live in Portugal, which is right next door, and maybe I can give you some help in this matter. But for that, as the climate is very different along the Iberian peninsula, I need to know, at least, in which region of Spain the terrain is located.
@@PedroReisR Thank you Pedro, it is greatly appreciated. there are a few I'm looking at in Murcia and Almeria. It seems as though they are very dry and one already has an almond orchard. I'd be keen to know how long it could potentially take to achieve the right water retention and what kind of vegetables/fruit are recommended to make it profitable? It's also worth noting that I am keen for a challenge. I am keen to do this in an area where locals feel it might not be achievable. I want to make an impact.
@@JasonLockwood87
If you are looking for something that is not easy, Murcia and Almeria are quite a challenge.
My land is located in the Lisbon area where the annual rainfall distribution is similar to that of Murcia and Almeria but it rains about two to two and a half times more. Temperatures in Murcia and Almeria are three degrees higher in winter, and six degrees higher in summer, than in Lisbon. However, in higher altitude areas in the Sierra Nevada or elsewhere, temperatures are milder.
In my experience, here it is possible to plant directly on land impoverished by conventional farming practices, peach, pear, apple, orange, plum, cherry, cherry, pomegranate, loquat, chestnut, hazel, walnut, fig, almond, mulberry, rowan and vines, planting in the fall or winter and watering only the first summer if necessary. I use oaks, myrica faya, alders, elaeagnus ebbingei and umbellata, broom, oleander, cacti, albizia and various spontaneous plants as supporting plants to obtain biomass, fix nitrogen and create shade. I do not use swales because even in the most intense rains I did not observe superficial runoff. Under the above conditions, vegetative growth and entry into production are slower between two to four years than if organic fertilizer is mixed in the planting pit and watering is extended to the first three summers, but my objective was to find the minimum conditions for implantation as this is particularly relevant if the area to be implanted is large. Another way to speed up the process is to use supporting plants in high density right from the start as I am doing now.
Depending on the altitude at which the land you buy is located, the implantation may have some similarities to the one I'm doing, but it will probably be more like this: ruclips.net/channel/UCSax3rj--OBIbgdtYepOsQw
@@PedroReisR thank you so much for the information Pedro. I don’t think Geoff could have answered that any better himself. There’s a lot for me to think about. You should start a channel so that I can see some of your work. You clearly know what you’re talking about. Best of luck with what you’re doing and again thanks for your support.
Any intelligent “Regenerative” agriculture will work, the “tests” to my mind are: costs/return, in other words, how effective is the return on input?
This was a good video for me at this moment 😊.
Love the info 🤠
Holistic management is a decision making framework. Holistic planned grazing is just a part of it that it is most famous for. It is definitely not just about ranch land, that would be like saying permaculture is about swales ;-)
Your a real life super hero love all ur work all u share so greatful for ur life's work u are a epic hero
Can u please make video with Paul stamits let's save the bees food forest full of mushrooms
Old grow food forests
Hi Friend! Thank you and have a nice day! 👍 12
It says cant be played ?
Need to meet Ernst Gotsch will be a nice meeting
Salam from Malaysia !!!
Salam from Moldova!
@@Нарангэрэлэнэхэнбэ 😮 Moldova? Wow Borscht!!
@@ahmadhasif979 Also mămăligă/ plăcinte/ and red wine/
@@ahmadhasif979 We have from Malaysia only wd-40/ Muddah tehbakir
@@Нарангэрэлэнэхэнбэ Hahaa, placine looks delicious, mudah in malay mean easy.
I didn't know wd-40 from Malaysia 😅
It seems obvious to me, PermaCulture is the design tool, the others are application tools. I tend to start from Keyline, but I could start from Holistic or PermaCulture. PermaCulture is about PEOPLEs use and input to the environment AND applies in EVERY environment, from Inner City urban to wide open pastoral.
You may only get 5 books on the topic of permaculture. Which books are these?
You may have only one book on permaculture. Which one is this?
Mollison Permaculture Designer Manual is the most important, then Holmgren books, Carol Deppe's books, Mark Shepard & Masanobu Fukuoka.
Combine with modern knowledge of the soil and then put in your 10,000 hrs.
Sorry you don't understand syntropic agroforestry. Permaculture is only permanent.syntropic is way more than that. It is the fastest way to get to abundance without input. You can use it for everything nof just food forest. And no you don't have to grow in lines. You should learn a bit more about it.
What kind of bird said hello to us? 💖
A dern loud one
Sounded like a Magpie having a territory dispute with another bird. So not saying hello, it's saying "get off my lawn!!"
One might argue that the meat industry and animal slaughter is unethical but it's a apart of permaculture design..
The way he describe syntropic agr. Is not correct it's much deeper than growing on rows,...
permaculture mind_()_
Om Ah Houm
Reduce syntropic agriculture to comercial fruit forest is so nonsense
Lol fail no understanding of other ways of thinking at all
Completely the opposite. Listen again.
@@amandar7719 maybe I was a bit harsh. But criticism of other methods while demonstrating an incomplete understanding of them is poor.
@@bigdog1391 Other ways of thinking such as magical, non-scientific and region-specific.
Permaculture dilutes its academic credentials by holding lesser agricultural systems up as equals, though they tend to be devoid of any design or science.
@@bigdog1391 There was zero criticism. Zero. Each and every other “name-tagged” coat hanger has an important place in the permaculture wardrobe. For example, a desertification programme in one part of the dry world, whether approached “holistically”, geographically or with ancient tribal/religious/modern cancel culture attitudes... can all be brought together. All viewpoints recognised. Such an approach wouldn’t necessarily work in a tropical rainforest or on Mount Everest.
An example (that might inflame your attitude or .... help you understand the complexities).... The “peace to prosperity” roadmap for the Middle East included every single existing permaculture “coat hanger” for each narrow minded agriculture “know-it-all” but also included face-saving, dignity, hope, financial independence, education and a halt to foreign interference in Middle East affairs.
I call that PERMaculture.
But hey, I’m just a dumb blonde with wide open eyes. My biggest fault is having zero patience with narrow minded bigots who think it’s best to ignore, then cancel history and science, and latch onto a baseless phenomenon that merely supports revamped plantation politics control.
@@dampdoily I really hope this is intentional satire