Notching & Drilling Joists - Keeping it Legal
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- Опубликовано: 19 ноя 2018
- Roger goes over the best practices and rules for notching and drilling holes in joists while filming our bathroom series.
It's important to calculate the size and location of notches and holes in joists correctly for safety. Ensure your holes and notches are in the right position and do not affect the structural integrity of the building. This applies to notching a joist for pipes and cables if you need to run them under your floor.
Follow the building regulations closely or use a joist notch reinforcement and hole calculator if you're unsure. Plan your legal notches.
Learn how to maintain floor strength when you have to cut or drill your joists for ducts, pipes, cables or other modifications. Following this video guide will keep your floors strong and safe.
#joists #woodworking #notching
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Lovely to hear a knowledgable tradesman talking seriously about paying attention to the detail required to ensure engineering of structure is respected whilst routing services, and further communicating it well. Well done !
Loved this vid. I knew about sizes of notches & holes, but I NEVER thought about checking to see if the joist is oversized. Shall be using this tip in the future! Thanks.
Nice one Roger good advice. Basically use your noggin too. Don't cut big chunks out near the support.
Plain and simple. Perfect
Another useful video, thanks Roger!
Really good and well-explained video. Thanks for sharing 👍
Stuff like that was never mentioned when training as spark. Learn something new everyday. All makes perfect sense when explained great work.
They should cover it. As a plumber we did general construction including bricklaying,carpentry, roofing and electrics.
Even as a layman I would've thought it's bl**dy obvious.
One more excellent video from my mentor.
Hi roger and the team! Great tip and video content!
thanks Roger. I watch and enjoy loads of your videos so please don't take my criticisms to heart about this particular video :)
1) the camera didn't pan enough to where you were explaining different parts of the joist. I struggled to follow what you were talking about.
2) all your measurements your were saying were in inches and the table was in mm.
Hi! I'm in the process of buying a home and the previous owner notched the joist at the bottom to run wires. That's not legal correct?
awesome info, cheers
@Skill Builder Is this video applicable in U.S.A? I plan to run two 1/2 inch water pipes, one cold, one hot. also I plan to run a 3/4 inch gas pipe. also what drill do you recommend to make these holes?do you have a Snap-On Drill bit recommended set and a drill? I plan to run wires as well. I have done it industrially which I think is much easier than residential since everything is out in the open to see.
Hi will noggins stop or reduce bouce of a suspended floor (loft).
Hi Roger, are there any guidelines for notches in timber frames? I’ve had builders cut a 50% notch out off a triple beam timber frame support by a window to fit a basin waste through
I can't find the previous episode for the kitchen sink and plumbing series. You state "I have already installed the waste pipe in my last episode". Can you please send video episode link. I'm relocating the kitchen sink and will be drilling holes through 3 joists and would find your video helpful. Thank you
What was that angle tisner you had on yer drill me babs?
I wish you'd looked at the joist you were pointing at when you spoke about drilling. That was the info i needed.
Sorry Mike . Not great work.
@@SkillBuilder No that's not true, great work just a minor slip. I have to put a waste through joists and I need to put it through the least number possible. Like the screw and glue plywood to the one you drill through. Enjoy the vids.
I feel more comfortable adding a reinforcing plate as well.
Its surprising that some enterprising company hasn't started selling reinforcing steel plates with pre-made say 50mm holes already in them. The steel plate is sized equivalent to a whole joist in strength. You could just screw the plate onto the joist drill through the hole and it's stronger than it was before.
saw your comment and googled 'reinforcing joists with holes'... got the following product show up :)
www.proremodeler.com/innovative-products-metwood-building-solutions-joist-reinforcements
really like to see you reinforce the structure after weakening it with holes, makes me feel safer knowing builders consider it, if not all of them
Search for beam bending, specifically neutral axis.... the top of the joist is in compression and the bottom in tension under normal loading. the centreline of the beam sees no stress hence the hole placement, reinforcement isn't needed.
@@markbarlow4918 Yeah, you can put an awful lot of hole in the centreline of a solid timber joist without making any real change in its load-bearing capabilities. I worry a great deal more about notches than centreline holes.
Couldn't be explained better.
V useful tips ..helps to keep an eye on those freshie builders :)
Great guide Roger, luckily we never have to notch joists here in Ontario and seldom have to drill holes for waste pipes (think bulkheads) roughing in the plumbing is much easier than back in UK.
We would like to see some photographs of how you do it.
@@SkillBuilder Would love to Roger, could you send me your cell or email address, through my website. Beaney Plumbing, Barrie , Ontario
Top notch, as usual Roger. Pardon the pun. Peace be unto you.
Hi, just a question. We have built an extension and the builder has laid the floor boarding. However, the plumber seems to think that out only option now is to drill the central heating pipes in but this would mean that he cannot use copper and must stick to plastic. Can you advise?
Ana Karlovic
Hi Ana
This is the best option by far. Notching in the top of joist and laying copper pipe in is not a great thing to do. I and many plumbers use copper above the floor but where it is hidden we now use PEX pipe for hot and cold water and central heating. It should outlast copper. The pipe is guaranteed for 50 years which is twice the guarantee of copper.
My joists are supported by bearers, can sections of the bearers be removed instead of cutting the joists?
The stress in a section of a beam subject to bending is linearly proportional to the distance of that section from the neutral axis of the beam (stress = bending moment x distance of section from bending axis / second moment of area), which will be the centre in this case. So, the centre of a beam is almost unstressed, which is why it is OK to drill holes there. Notching a beam, on the other hand, is removing strength from the area that is most highly stressed and has the biggest contribution to supporting the load. Obviously, then, drilling holes in the centre makes sense. Notching does not and only works because the joists are bigger than they theoretically (by way of stress calculations) need to be in the first place.
Currently renovating a bathroom. Drilling in the centre is preferable but then, depending on the run, you've got to use small sections of pipe with couplers. The exception being plastic pipe for water supply.
Thanks for another great vid 👍
However if notching for say a shower waste is the ONLY way to fit that shower - is there a proper way of strengthening the joist after it's been "notched" please?
He covered that by fitting the extra sheet
I thought this was a creed 2 trailer when I saw Drago in the picture😂😂
Hoping someone can help, I have a problem where the previous owners have put 2 x 22mm pipes and a 15mm pipe notched Into the top of a joist, but when ever I walk on the floor I can here them rattle, can I take the notch down more and try and secure them, then use a thin metal plate on the joist the bridge the notch, and fill this with a duct sealing kit ?
That is a good plan. It happens a lot and you can buy hairfelt pipe lagging to put on the pipe. You can buy those plates for protecting gas pipes from nails and screws. www.screwfix.com/p/sabrefix-protecta-safe-plate-galvanised-90mm-x-45mm-20-pack/30038
I've been to loads to fit t&g floorboards obviously after the plumbers and electricians have been and they have notched out, absolute nightmare trying to get some fixings in when their notches are as wide as the floorboards and there full of cables/pipes
It should never be done. I hate to see that. I was trying to come up with a metal clip that would go over but it is hard to design and wouldn't sell.
Hi Roger and team. I’m wanting to put 150mm ducting through several I joists for a flush ceiling kitchen extractor. Not opened the ceiling yet and can’t remember whether the upright of the I (is this called webbing??) is OSB or ply. Either way, one or the other, I have a 150mm hole saw. can this material be cut out to 150mm round, and maybe reinforced with ply or OSB (with the same hole cut through it and sandwiched onto each side where accessible? The last joist is probably tight to the wall and only accessible on the room side). Thanks for any advice you can offer!
How deep it the I joist? You can look up the permissible hole size. It is usually marked on there. Is there no way to go parallel with the beam?
@@SkillBuilder approx 10 inch but haven’t got the ceiling down yet. Having an extension soon and planning to do kitchen DIY. There will be a steel blocking the parallel route to the outside so only option is through the webbing of the iJoists. It could go central to the span (only 3m)
If you have an old notched joist, where the wire is no longer needed, would plugging it with wood strenghten the joist and is it advisable?
It can do no harm because the top is in compression when a load is placed on the beam so putting the bit back is going to restore that bit of compression.
Can I ask what the rules are for studs? (non load bearing) i'd like to hide my 32mm pipe and my BCO doesn't want 2" notched out of 3x 4" studs in a row. Bit bemused personally as it's not a loading wall.
Interesting as mine is in a stud wall 🤔 let me know how you get on with bc 👍
@@kingofthetrowel1725 Sorry late on the reply, long story short, I didn't get on with them. Ended up using a service void with counter battens. meant less holes in the vcl but 2" smaller room, kind of a big deal in a space which was only 85 cm wide in the first place! looks neat tho
Back in the real world many tradesmen, particularly plumbers, notch the hell out joists and pay no mind to weakening. Slap the floorboards over and no one will ever know.
Yep you see it all the time. Better to have woodworm in your house than a plumber.
I’m a plumber and it’s something I never really thought of , but after this video I will be taking the advice on and applying it .
Dealing with this now due to remodel nightmare
@David Lewis just need them to make a video on clearing up after yourself now, for the rest of the plumbers to take on board 😜🤙
What 90 degree drill bit attachment was used and what drill bit was used. A manufacturer and part description would help lots of readers. Thanks
We'll never know
How do know the joists will be weakened if you drill a hole of 16 - 25mm or notching it? Is there a test for it. I think timber joist will deflect to .003% in the middle 4-5meter.
You don't have to know. Some things are just there in the regs and you do them. The centre line on a beam is the neutral axis and provided the holes is not too large it will not weaken it. The top is in compression and the bottom is in tension with the middle being neither. If you cut away the top with a notch the compression is reduced so the joist is weaker
how bad is it of the holes are closer together? ive bought a house and we are rewiring it and in some places there are 3 holes very close together from whoever did the job last
It should be fine provided the holes aren't massive and their is no creeking or movement. If it's weak you can sister the joist/s, add noggins or even add angle iron or steels.
How do these rules apply to I beams? These have timber top and bottom but particle board in between.
Never notch an I beam, they are usually marked for drilling.
how do you have a shower drain on the joist or is this not option ? would you have to modify shower base?
You have to order the base to avoid the joists. That said I see plenty that have been notched
The plumber has notched the top of several joists for plastic radiator pipes, does this need strength ing now?
Not if the are less than one sixth of the depth.
all plumbers & electricians note this
This is a very important topic as these rules are so frequently flouted. I think this video is missing some vital additional information. For instance how far apart a hole in a joist has to be from a notch in a joist. The region of a joist that is permitted to have a hole through it is different to the allowable region for notches. What is the required spacing between holes? Is that dimension measured from closest edge to closest edge, or center to center? Unfortunately, this Video shows a hole and a notch in the same joist closer together than is permissible. I think it would also be useful to advise that trades cooperate as much as possible when routing services through joists given that every joist has limited real estate through which holes or notches can be cut electricians and plumbers should make sure they can both run their services without limiting the options or routes for the other. that might mean drilling a hole larger than the size you immediately need but within permissible limits if it is likely that other wiring or pipework will need to be routed through the same zone. It is an awful lot harder to increase the size of a hole when there is already a cable or pipe in it. perhaps there could be a more in-depth follow-up video.
You are right and those holes are closer together than they should be. We hoped the diagram would explain it but not everybody reads.
I took a bath out about a year ago and some one had notched 6 inches out of a 8 inch joist for a waste pipe lol
Stephen Wright 😂 but the house and floor were still standing right!
There is very little loss in the strength of a joist if you drill a hole in the middle of the joist, the strain is taken up by the low and high edges. Notching on the other hand does have a significant effect and should be avoided. There is no excuse for electricians putting-cables in a notch, and it’s dangerous. Even plumbers can put plastic water pipe through holes drilled in the centre of the joist.
Totally agree
I was (rather naively, in hindsight) screwing some creaky floorboards down in my new house recently, only to discover that one of the floorboards wasn't attached at all. I lifted it up to discover the electrician had notched the joist and sloppily put the wires through, without even covering it up on top. Every time you stood on that floorboard, you were pressing onto wires - if I'd tried to screw it in without checking, I'd have had a nasty surprise.
We had a guy come to sand some of the boards down and he said he couldn't do the job because of the weight of the machines on top of those cables.
So the max hole size hole on a 2x6 would be 3/8? That’s not enough to fit a romex cable.
I believe the video said 0.25 which would be 1.5 inch .... and you can still fit a romex cable through 3/8"
Really clear video - thank you. I think a few tradesmen (including a recent electrician we had) are a bit cavalier about drilling holes anywhere that suits them.
Interested in your plywood technique - do you glue/screw/both this onto the joists? My (layperson) thoughts were that with screwing/bolting there are even more holes in the joist.
The idea of the plywood is simply to close any stress points around the hole. If, for example you had a split in the timber joist. You must glue it so it acts like a plywood beam.
Can someone point me to the actual regulation all this info was taken from? I can find a million places where this info is (some with slight contradictions or missing/additional info). But I want to read the official document, the actual reg or page number.
The Building Regulations England and Wales
@@SkillBuilder yes, I have downloaded them I can not find these actual figures in there. Do you have a page no and part?
With the materials available for building these days I don't see any need for noticing joists
and how you can run a shower waste when the joists are crossed on its way..
We see that problem all the time. One thing you can't do it notch the joists within an inch of their life.
Screw that. In North America we drill holes willy nilly
For many reasons I thank God I'm in the UK then.
Jim McDonald that’s why we are world leaders.
Hi Roger and team! I Tweeted you about a collaboration. Would you be interested in getting together and talking about the trades? All the best, James (Copenhagen!)
Just an informal chat about the trades plus a catch up? Could host a bit on both our channels. All the best guys, James. 😎
Hi James
Sorry I am not on Twitter much so don't pick up these messages. We are up in Colchester, so not too far from you and I am sure we can hook up for a chat.
Skill Builder wicked guys! How do you want to get in contact? I can email you my number if you like? All the best, James.
Skill Builder I thought you said you’re in surrey! 🤔
Here’s a tip for ya,build a furr down, move the stack figure it out, never notch a joist or truss and it looks shitty
I always say plumbers should be taught some carpentry skills . How to take up floorboards without smashing them to pieces would be a start . I have loads of jobs repairing floors for customers because sparks and plumbers don’t cut them properly and I think that’s part of their job as they are lifting floor board all the time .
I always say carpenters should learn how to frame with some considerations for the trade coming after them. Remember it’s a glorified dog house until plumbing and electrical goes in.
@@ptech88not the way we build houses as we are not framers i am guessing your American?
Thanks for the video; it might be slightly more useful if the camera could follow the presenters hands when explaining and pointing stuff out on the materials as opposed to just staying focused on his face.
Best way to actually cut the notches? Literally just a saw and chisel?
Notching is a last resort. Drilling mid way is preferred.
You must be stating requirements of the LOCAL code where you're at. The IRC (International Residential Code) is NOT the same. Like the size of a bore: You say 1/4 depth max but the IRC says 1/3. And a notch, as YOU state, should be within the outer 1/4 of the span whereas the IRC says 1/3.
The International code often quoted by our American viewers is little more than an American standard. Americans are fooled into thinking is applies to lots of countries but really it is only America and a few other smaller countries that are under their standards to save them having to write their own. We have British Standards and European Standards which are closely aligned but we also have difference between England and Scotland. All jobs for the boys.
@@SkillBuilder Damnit man! I suspected as much. Yep.....that's us......half-ass. It's like this damn Schluter crap over here: We can't get Kerdi-Col, which ACTUALLY makes the membrane/band bonding "waterproof." Our code is plain, unmodified thinset. From what I understand, actual "waterproof" mortar is required in Europe for membrane/band bonding? Know anything about that? I won't use that system for JUST THAT REASON. If ya ask me, it's a damn money grab, as the way that system done over HERE is NOT "waterproof." It's RESISTANT enough to assure that the system lasts long enough to rid the maker of the liability but not so long that the maker can't make money on it aGAIN....sooner rather than later.
@@SkillBuilder bit like the baseball World Series 😆
inches?! Ack
Never drill holes bigger than you need
Roger is surely due for a knighthood.
Enjoyed the context, but you showed so little of the actual work at hand, I struggled to understand application. Not sure why the camera stayed on you 95% of the time.
Why are you brits still talking about inches? :)
Because we are leaving the E.U and we will return to the old ways. Seriously we use both, multilingual.
Cause its easy to see on a tape measure. If it aint broke why fix it.
For some things it's easier to visualise, especially for those that grew up using it more.
It's an old age thing. I'm 49 and we are definitely metric
USA people - disregard this ! Not code, in USA.
Interesting! This was never intended to be for anyone outside the U.K but just out of interest I looked at the USA code and it seems to be almost identical. Admittedly the average American is a heavier unit than the U.K counterpart but most of the details about size of holes and depth of notches is the same. Can you point to one or two places that it differs?
@@SkillBuilder Tumbleweed...