These units were all the rage in the late 70s. I remember my parents having an Amcor model with transformer/multiplier combination. It came with a small 'tester' which was a neon lamp and a small value high voltage capacitor in parallel on a small PCB. You would hold one end about 2-3 inches away from the needles, and the other end between the thumb and forefinger. The charge would build up in the capacitor, reach the neon strike voltage giving a small blink of the neon, discharging the capacitor and so on. I was fascinated by Ionisers, and still am.
Like you I was fascinated with Ionisers when I was young, I built a few and brought a commercial unit made by Crusair. While it worked very well, I was forced to stop using it because it covered the walls with the pollution it takes out of the air. A process that takes some time to notice, the clue is the clean vertical strips that develops in the corners of the room. The room corners providing the inverse potential gradient to that of spikes. A second observable effect of having the ioniser on, particularly on a dry day, is that the touch activated light switches trigger randomly on and off as clouds of ioniser air is wafted passed them by movement in the room. I too was concerned by ozone bring generated, as it has an an LD50 at least ten times less than that of hydrogen cyanide.gas. Fortunately my ioniser does not generate very much ozone. ( I have a powerful ozone generated used for cleaning pond water, fully capable of sterilising a whole room. It can actually corroded exposed metal parts if left on too long.) I am not convinced of the advantages of breathing in negative ioniser air, but it does feel fresher than untreated air. The difference maybe attributed to the effective removal of dust, pollen, fungal spores and dirt from the air, all of which act as allergens. So their removal clearly has health benefits to the human immune system. It seemed to me that most of the benefits of using an ioniser can be gained by enclosing it in a plastic box and blowing room air through the box using an equipment fan at the inlet. Fitting an earthed metal grill and dust trap at the outlet cleans the air and reduces the amount of negatively ioniser air that escapes into the room. My experiments suggests the system works reasonable well, to the point that the accmulated dust collected represented a fire hazard. Unfortunately the relative small size of the box and its earthing arrangements does not allow the the charged air to build up in the room in quite the same way as a free standing unit. So the choice seems to be clean air and dirty walls. Static electric dust collection has an advantage over nano or micro air filters in that they do not block and do not use any consumables.
yeh my black pyramid ionizer left a dirty, un-wash-offable soot mark on my wallpaper where it was sat in front of on a sideboard. I still have it, its upstairs, unplugged and getting dusty LOL the sweet revenge of dust.
@@JohnnyX50 At about the same time as the popularity of ionisers, there were cheaper , lower tech, fan based air cleaners that used replaceable filters loaded with activated carbon contained in porous artificial fibre packets. I have often wondered why they were not combined with electrostatic cleaners. My experiments with a Tupperware plastic boxes fitted with a fan and ioniser suggest that they are effective and do not suffer from the dirty wall problem. Their biggest drawback is they work too well, making it difficult to design the dust tray so as not to be a fire hazard or blow the accumulated dust and fluff back into the air. If I was to repeat my experiments now, I might design the dust trap with a cyclone feature to separate the charged dust from the clean air. Do you know if the Dyson air filter uses electrostatic precipitation or does it just use expensive microfiber filters? I have seen advertised on television shopping channels a water based air filter, that some how blows air through scented water. The water turns black as the air is cleaned. I am not sure how these avoid excessive evaporation, raising the room air humidity to an acceptable level. Maybe they don't, which explains why I have not seen them for a while.
The water probably also turns black from the microorganisms happily multiplying in that pond, nourished by the influx of dust particles, which in turn love to travel on droplets carried with the "cleaned" air back into the room. Yay! - If you already decided to go with forced airflow (by means of fans), perhaps you might want to experiment with vacuum cleaner bags (perhaps cut them into mats and fit them into custom frames), or commercially available replacement air filters and their frames, possibly from the automotive industry.
@@Anvilshock you are right, I think the water based filters would be a good way to breed legionella bacteria. They certainly increase the room humidity to unacceptable levels, as does those water based evaporative coolers. ( Horrible things). In my experiments I used a pair of metal speaker mesh grille as the earthed catcher electrode. I could have used one and some of the mineral wool used in cooker hoods, but my concern was the dust becoming a fire hazard. In my tests the dust built up on the mesh and fell to the bottom of the box where it could be periodically sucked out with a vacuum cleaner. Care was needed in opening the box, lest the fine trapped dust was puffed back into the room as a dirty noxious cloud. I did not run the experiment for long as the plastic of the box turned black with ingrained dirt, maybe because the plastic used to make Tupperware has its own surface charge. It was not the most attractive contraption,. But it did prove the principle.
As an idea, you could add two ports to the dustcatcher housing, each with a cap. When it comes to emptying the catcher, you attach your regular vacuum cleaner to one while the other one acts as a high-flowrate purging intake. That way you could leave the whole thing assembled while still having convenient access to emptying the thing.
For anyone playing along at home: acupuncture needles can be found on ebay for next to nothing and have an incredibly fine tip. You may want to experiment and invest in a name brand options if you want long lasting tips though - the cheapie batch I purchased (to clean the nozzle of a clogged 3D printer) claimed to be stainless steel but turn out to be highly magnetic...
If Clive covered this and I missed it, its early. But is there a set number of needles per volts I noticed both units looked to have 5 needles, I watched his unit he made his folks, under the sink it only had one needle.
The main advantage of using lots of needles is that as one gradually gets eroded or furred up with dust the others take over. I made a version with a single needle for aiming at a wound, but usually use a bunch of needles in a hedgehog style.
10:40 Theres a limit to how many stages you can use since there is a lot of voltage drop thru them, depending on what diodes you use. We use them to generate 120 kV for oilfield tools, and about 26-28 stages is the most you can reasonably use, but this depends on the supply impedance and diode resistance.
My favorite use of this type of technology is the ‘electrostatic precipitator’ that uses metal plates and tensioned wires. A fan draws the air through the stack, you have metal plates spaced a couple inches apart with the wires strung between them, the wire is negative and the plate is positive, then there’s another stack of plates that alternate in charge behind this first stack. I prefer these because it contains and traps the dirt in the machine as opposed to just forcing it to settle around the unit for you to clean up later. All you do is remove the ‘collector cell’ as it’s called, and wash it with a mild alkaline cleaner, let dry and reinstall.
We used to have a big version of something like that hanging from the ceiling in the smoking room at work, many years ago. No pyramid design and obviously no paper on top, but a similarly shaped base and mesh. It was designed for removing smoke from the air.
Awesome video, I always wondered about the practical functioning of these. I actually bought a few ionic breeze devices for my parents, they worked wonderfully to improve the air quality in their house, unfortunately, their pets shed way too much hair and quickly overcame the intakes. Also, I love that bit at 14:45 after counting 21 capacitors "That's odd..." Thanks Clive, we really needed you to tell us that 21 was odd.
I built one of these for 120V (Bag of 100 caps and bag of 100 diodes from AliExpress was like $5 delivered). The caps and diodes are all soldered together deadbug style (no PCB) in a long rod type form, reinforced with hotmelt glue, and stuffed into a 1/2" PVC pipe for a case. A few resistors (in a bit of vinyl tubing for add'l safety) and tied to the emitter. The emitter was a bit of aluminum flashing cut into a star shape with very sharp points, and it works fine in as much as on dark, dry nights you can see a faint purple glow at the tips and it makes bits of tissue paper fly around from the static buildup. Could likely be better/more efficient but it works! Been meaning to try adding a second electrode like the Dezac just to see how it would perform. Alternatively, I might modify my room filter to make the inner metal mesh of the filter element the opposite electrode, and have the ion generator near the filter unit inlet, so the crap gets caught directly in an air filter with some forced circulation. Hmmm!
My grandma had one of the later models of Ionic Breezes that were updated to fix the excess ozone production and it worked really well. She was a heavy smoker and it really did wonders for getting rid of the smoke and the smell. After she passed I used it for when my allergies got to the point the meds stopped working and it worked amazingly. Still have it but haven't used it in ages though.
"Let's look at this appliance!" *spends more than half the video giving a detailed explanation of what said appliance does prior to teardown* I love you, Clive.
"Before christmas was even finished, I had it open." That sounds a lot like me as a kid. I'd play with my toys until I was bored with them, then disassemble them. My dad got mad at me for it, and asked me why I was doing that, and I replied simply "I was bored with it and now I understand how it worked." He was unable to come up with a cogent reply.
Sadly, I have yet to come up with one that will work reliably on NA mains. My next attempt will involve trying to create a custom current limited step-up transformer (thats probably a bit ambitious...).
Im glad you mentioned the lighty up pink Himalayan rock salt lampy thing. My mum bought me one (cost a fair chunk of money) saying the lady in the shop said put it in a room with electronics and it will take away all the headaches and bad feelings caused by said electronic devices. Crap, I said. Its a lump of salt with a light inside it, at best it will slightly dehumidify the room but start melting in the process. So its sat in my kitchen and lo and behold. it has started leaving salty dribble marks down the wooden bit and done sweet FA to anything electrical. Besides the only thing it could do to electronics is have a corrosive effect if it ever got spludged onto them. LOL. 1 - 0 to us electronics enthusiasts against wacko hippy grass munchers.
Ah, that would explain why a colleague at work has one of those things on her desk. Until this video I had no idea what it was supposed to be for (thought it might have even just been decorative, but I should have known better, given its owner!), but yeah, no surprise it's some quack nonsense :)
I got one for a reasonable price*... as purely decorative object (was sold without claims whatsoever) *= ~20€ ... which I probably would have had to pay for any other decorative lamp, too
@@MrMegaPussyPlayer Yeah, they're really neat looking. I like them. I've just shied away from getting one, in case people thought I was buying into the claims. (To be clear, I'm not saying that they don't have benefits, as I truly have no idea if they do or don't.)
Years ago, I bought one of the small Ionic Breezes (integrated plug like a night light) and used it very briefly. Visibly and audibly arcing in there made me nervous to leave it unsupervised. As it was plugged in in the bathroom, I was not about to continually monitor it. If I want to try again, it will be something Big Clive approves of.
I know less than nothing about these things but was interested in your story about your workmates adverse reaction. Any time we have had a cheap ionizer at home I get a headache within 5mins. Everyone gets pissed, says Im mad and just looking for attention. VERY interesting - I must check out something like the Mountain Breeze (smoker, asthma and cats so I could do with something!)! Thanks Clive!
I was also fascinated as a kid. I wanted one too - they were in Argos at the time (the beige Mountain Breeze). I just wanted to take it apart and see how it worked.
@rustybuttpate I used to travel for a living I'm up on I 80 in Wyoming restrooms are far and few between up there. Matter of fact I hate the dam "Elk Mountain" coming up sign for like 300 miles every mile or so. Anyway there was a truckers only stop I had to piss I figure better there then In front of some family along side the road, as I pull into the sleeping / rest area NO BATHROOMS NO WIFI I pull far right and there was a trucker standing on the passenger side of his truck. Standing up mind you with this Logg dangling between his legs pinching a loaf he was standing up, this wasn't his first time ( I'm thinking this guy must have Ben a bread maker at some point keeping in mind my pun about pinching a loaf). I have to say I was impressed a bit. But then he turns his head looks at me and pulls up his (about to have a real shitty day underwear) and pants jumps in his truck and hauls ass. I'm thinking man the next stop is 200 miles bro, he didn't wipe. I know we've all had that brick that didn't require wiping but this was not that. Hell I was about to ask if he needed some shit paper I always carry some but he hauled ass so quick I didn't have the chance. I tried to forget I had seen this but then bigclive froidle slip of the tungetangleation. I remembered it all over agian. Thanks for sharing your story. Cheers/ have a good one/ good day mate.
Many thanks. I have a similar one without the metal grid base that I bought probably 20 years ago. I will dig it out of the cupboard and get it back into use. It has an orange neon, which I never liked! I reckon these could be designed as part of LED replacement lamps, especially downlighters. Now I know the current is in the order of microamps I can leave mine running continually. I will chop out that neon...
I don't know Clive. If I found myself shitting an ionizer, I think I'd be fairly concerned. I'm guessing I would be pretty prompt in my visit to the ER to make sure I wasn't going to shit out any more small household appliances. Then I would probably get around to finding out exactly how it got in there in the first place... :-)
The amcor ionisers came with an indicator. It was a neon bulb that was mounted on a pcb with a capacitor. Similar to the screw drivers but it would flash when held (grounded). Like Mr Clive I persuaded my parents to buy one. I still use it, the carbon fiber thread in low light gives mini static 'bolts' and makes that high pitched static noise when you place a finger near. About 20/25 years on and it's still going. Model Multi 6/8, I'm guessing the highest version has 8 stages of filtration.
I long for the days of the crt television sets. they were the perfect air cleaner. If you ever opened one that had been working for a long time, you would find a massive amount of dust and dirt packed into the high voltage area.
Having worked on old CRT TVs. Gaming computers put them to shame. Can clean one and then a week or two later it already has a layer of dust building, very small but it seems to grow exponentially.
In the early 60's I read an article in Popular Mechanics or mag like that about ion propelled helicopters of the future. Ever notice those futures never came? So I built one out of aluminum screen and an array of needles. The power supply was external. It never lifted off, but made quite a breeze. Current limiting resistors, we don't need any stinking resistors. Had my parents only known the stuff I worked on.
Speaking of low voltage powered ones, check out the Ioncare GH2151. 40mm muffin fan, tiny UVC lamp, positive spring tensioned corona wire before the negative collection plates, and the carbon fiber bristles also negatively charged, IE electrically in parallel with the plates. Oh and the potted HV supply has an adjustment pot for the output voltage. The HV is current limited to about 50 microamps short circuit, so it just barely pegs an analog multimeter on that range. The one I have was left behind at a rental property.
Clive, we do also have household 240v in America, primarily for large appliances. But I doubt anyone would ever think about using it for such physically small things as an ionizer.
Curiously, I also asked for an ioniser for Christmas (in the 80s, from DAK industries in the states)! Mine was fairly sealed, though, so I didn't try taking it apart until a couple years later when it started arcing between the emitter and collector (this was an oval cylinder with the midsection as the collector and one side of the tilted top as an emitter with a fibre pad doing the emitting -- wish I could find a photo). During the pandemic, I've been keenly interested again in ionisers, as I found a study that showed active ionisation as extremely successful in preventing virus transmission in mice. I've been thinking of building powerful ones with separate collector plates (ideally self contained and hanging on an opposite wall) to have friends and family install in their homes and local restaurants put in to keep themselves safe.
Wow I use to have one of these when I was about 14 and was fascinated with ionizers and ozone. Good nostalgia. I remember I used to touch the pins and my radiator (ground) for fun to make sparks and get shocked. I am not a smart man.
I have been considering something along these lines to serve a function in a fine dust particle separator. Managed to build a pretty good separator out of random things I had around and a lot of care with measurements. However more fine dust than I like is still finding it's way into my HEPA filter that sits at the tail end of the system. The idea I was thinking of is to use a small box to house an ioniser after depositing into the main dust collection bin, basically sitting in line between bin and vacuum source. Just worried the effect isn't fast enough for the intense air flow needed to serve as proper dust collection.
Have you considered modifying the unit to increase the length of the path from the needles to the mesh? Block the existing holes and drill some more round the top? Add an insulating square spacer to jack the pyramid up? Make it from perspex and you could see the works safely.
You've just bought back a long-lost memory with that Dezac. I'm 95% sure that my Dad had a similar model in his office. (he was a manager in a shopping center in the 80s). I remember seeing the pyramid with the needles sticking out, and he explained what it did. Well, not quite in the detail you've gone into here, but I got the gist. lol I knew it probably wasn't a good idea to stick a finger near or on the needles, but I of course did try it once, and the current was incredibly low. I'm guessing the pyramid was available without the grid + paper? I don't recall seeing that at the time.
I've mentioned my old pyramid ionizer before, it was black, and about 2/3 of the way up, there was a carbon fibre like 'string' made by Amcor, and it came with this strip of PCB material with a bulb on, that you held with your finger & thumb on pads on the PCB, it was kept on my desk, about 2 ft from my bed, and the sooty marks would form around it. My parents bought it to try and help with my asthma, which was an issue as we had a coal fire, and no central heating in the house at the time, what are your views on this for asthma issues Clive?
I used to put my finger very close to the 'string' and turn my bedroom light off, and could see and feel the purple sparks that it emitted. Next time I'm back in Yorkshire, I will see if it's in my dad's loft
Don't underestimate the power of the plastic pyramid's role in cleaning the air and balancing your chakra. Shame these devices have had any beneficial properties utterly smothered by quackery nonsense.
Clive I hope you don't mind but I listen to your videos when I can't sleep. Very soothing. informative as all hell but I never make it to the end. Sorry and thank you.
You mention that 110V units would require 'double the stages', but it actually only requires one additional stage? That's why they're called Cockroft-Walton Voltage DOUBLERS
in the US all homes have two separate 120 volt lines going into them so they can be combined to create 240. 120 is often not enough for quite a few applications most older homes will have 240 sockets in there basement it might be a good place too put an ioniser. I wonder if the uk ones would run okay at 60hz. Just to avoid certain replays i'll mention a lot of people have the misconception that one line is 240 and one is 120 but that is not the case
The important thing with the ionizers is the reference to ground. It doesn't matter if you connect it to a 240V in the US. It's still only 120V to ground.
It probably wont be efficient to run voltage multiplier ionizer from two phases since you want HV between ionizer needle and ground. Chinese have negative ion generator modules and they most likely use switching transformer instead of diode-capacitor voltage multiplier so they can be run from low DC voltage
If you need a dust-free "Clean-Room" where you don't spend a lot of time then this kind of unit can be quite useful to keep dust particulates to a minimum.
It's been running for a few days with an extra small square of paper on top of one area to see if there is a colour difference. So far I'm not impressed.
16:13 It can sound counterintuitive to say that the neon's resistor was in fact *over-rated* but that doesn't stop it from being correct. It only takes a few seconds of thinking before the pleasing moment when the penny drops and then you can't wait to tell everyone.
I have a potted ionizer module which runs on 5V, the output do want to be arcing to the 5V input side so I think the 5V side is tied to 1 side of the output transformer, I guess we could just connect the 5V side to earth so it will create a better imbalance between grounded surfaces and the high voltage output?
I assumed a Yank would just have to add one extra multiplyer stage to make up for the 120 volt U.S. mains. Then I remembered I/R. Definitely a voltage doubling transformer first. Thank you for jogging my brain.
I've got an ionic pro, which was a clone of the ionic breeze. They do seem to help with my roomate being allergic to everything, and the plates inside do seem to collect a fair amount of stuff out of the air... It has three super thin wires at the back and three plates inside that are removable for cleaning. We had it too close to him and he kept getting shocked while using his PC because it kept charging him up
I wonder if something like a small fan behind a filter with a shroud pulling air across a set of these ionising needles would work well to contain the mess and maybe improve the efficiency. Anyone had a go or got any insight?
Regarding negative vs positive it helps to remember that all electrons are negatively charged so they are always chasing positively charged atoms to make that atom neutral. Conversely protons are positively charged and are always chasing negatively charged atoms to become neutral. Charge is quantized thus a system won't necessarily achieve neutral atoms (there is resistance). It also means free electrons can be trapped in an atom at high voltage or called electrically charged ionization. Or in other words it increases the negative charge of an atom because electron is just another way of saying negative.
this tech is so cool! ...... one thing though, what would that do with nearby electronics? ... and can it build up high voltage charges on nearby ungrounded metal surfaces?.
It's best kept away from electronic stuff and it does cause a charge build up on adjacent surfaces. If you hold your hand near the needles it charges your body up and you get a static zap from grounded objects.
Ionizers...yep..have had a few myself and was always wondering how come some gave the mountain breeze effect while others did #ff all...I was always hoping to find a way of keeping my vinyl dust free...vv informative informative vid
I remember buying an ioniser in the late 80s for my 2 year old who had allergies, I was itching to pull it apart to see what was inside but missus banned me from doing so. Never know what happened to it but I know it did something because I recall the dirt collection along the front of it. I recall there was a sort of silk string across its front and I put my finger near it when the room was semi dark and I saw a gentle blue spark. Interesting stuff. Can you still buy these things??
Clive can you Mod this one with a needle where the neon is and demonstrate the way it collects dirt/dust on a piece of paper. Compared to how it does with the needles on one side. Cheers Garry.
The reason why a negative charge is used is because both Carbon and Oxygen have either half or more of the secondary ring of electrons filled (2,8,8....) which basically means they gain negative charge easier as the atoms want to fill those electron rings more than it wants to lose the electrons from the rings
Given how dirt precipitates around it, people probably put them in a section of the room that's *easy to clean* yeah? Like way out on it's own sitting on the middle of a rug or something.
Fascinating! I also just realised that THIS might help massively with my allergies! Any recommendations, range from £35 upwards....any better to spend more? Thanks Clive!
I wonder if the mess could be contained. Say you put an array of needles in a box oposing a pan and blow air through it, then all the dust would collect in the pan to be vacuumed out? Edit: Would say 20 to 30cm distance between needles and pan.
Given the low current draw, I feel like you could design a battery powered version. Would a joule thief be powerful enough for it? 2nd thoughts, maybe the power supply has to swing negative for the voltage multiplier to work. I also wonder what an increase of frequency would achieve.
What would you suggest for controlling dust in a plastic cyclone - piped with pvc? Its high velocity - with a 5 horse motor. I think the static is causing the particles to cling and not drop out. Thank you!
So you're saying that all you need to make one of these right, is to have a low volume fan + a dirt trap that's in the way of the needles and the exit from a tube?
Presumably a different Ion Tech to the one that built those very good ion mills used in electron microscopy? (They were justifiably famous for their saddle-field ion beam sources, with their very rapid beam abrasion performance!).
Chinese trading sites have negative ion generator modules they self contained so you only need to add an enclosure for a device, they probably have switching transformer inside instead of diode voltage multiplier since they come in 110V and even 12V
Wonder if anyone's used an ionizer to reduce the intake of dust into a PC. Or would that be a bad idea... Maybe build the case so that before entering the case, the air passes through a chamber with negatively-charged points at the entrance and a positive-charged grid on the other end before the entrance to the PC.
I'm still learning about ionizers but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a jacobs ladder effectively the same ? Positive or negative ? Hmmmm.... I'm still learning 👍 great vid again 😉
Definitely worth thinking about negative charge and health (or the loss of positive charge to ground). Thanks for the info again on ionisers. I'm surprised these aren't more popular. It seems most organisms are constantly trying to shed positive charge. If biological systems go out of control charge wise, they likely become acidic. Excrement exports net positive, for example, urine contains (amongst other things) urea. A barely charged product of converting positively charged metabolites such as ammonia and amino acids. Effectively mopping up positive charges and excreting them. Sweat as well sheds net positive (Na+, K+ etc...). Its documented that people gain weight in subcutaneous water in planes - sign of inflammation - (planes are basically an RF amplification tube charging people up lol!). Feels rubbish on a flight! Are DVT and increased BP recognised risks on planes but less so on other modes of transport closer to ground? Cool breeze or wind will strip positive ions off animals too. Would hairs or feathers amplify this effect being thin sharp tubes? Refreshing standing in the breeze anyway. Or bare foot on a beach! Ha ha ha 😂 Birds seem to be masters at staying well when in the air (unlike humans)! The higher above ground level we go the more positive charge we accumulate. There is a book that collects the science but I can't for the life of me remember what it is :( if anyone here is interested I'll look into it. I dont have access to it right now :(
This product places dust collecting paper on the suction side of ion flow, it is not ionized. Make sure the direction of the ionization needle is charged dust. Is not it more efficient for the air current to go to the collection paper?
Some theories believe that a blunt flat surface departs ionized particles better than sharp points, in the same counter-intuitive behavior to recent lighting rod discoveries. Whereby a flat blunted lighting rod is far superior to pointed spikes and silly expensive porcupine toppers.
How many HV systems have you ever seen or worked with? Ions *very definitely* are lost through sharp points at a much greater rate than smooth, flat areas.
The trick with making an ionizer is to find an old ccfl backlight driver so that you have 400-1000V instead of 240 to start. Less capacitors and lower value of them that way.
These units were all the rage in the late 70s. I remember my parents having an Amcor model with transformer/multiplier combination. It came with a small 'tester' which was a neon lamp and a small value high voltage capacitor in parallel on a small PCB.
You would hold one end about 2-3 inches away from the needles, and the other end between the thumb and forefinger. The charge would build up in the capacitor, reach the neon strike voltage giving a small blink of the neon, discharging the capacitor and so on. I was fascinated by Ionisers, and still am.
I have always assumed that an ioniser was the exact same as an ozone generator. Thanks for the video that helped me reevaluate my misunderstanding.
I good bit of my time as an electrician on submarines was spent cleaning and maintaining the ionizing (electrostatic) precipitators. What a pain!
@@Francois_Dupont pedal powered.
@@Francois_Dupont doesn't matter. It's clearly dirty and broken.
+SueBobChicVid
Why did you need to clean them?! Any grunt can clean them.
I imagine crew space being a premium on subs, there wasn't the manpower for that level of labor division.
Like you I was fascinated with Ionisers when I was young, I built a few and brought a commercial unit made by Crusair. While it worked very well, I was forced to stop using it because it covered the walls with the pollution it takes out of the air. A process that takes some time to notice, the clue is the clean vertical strips that develops in the corners of the room. The room corners providing the inverse potential gradient to that of spikes. A second observable effect of having the ioniser on, particularly on a dry day, is that the touch activated light switches trigger randomly on and off as clouds of ioniser air is wafted passed them by movement in the room.
I too was concerned by ozone bring generated, as it has an an LD50 at least ten times less than that of hydrogen cyanide.gas. Fortunately my ioniser does not generate very much ozone. ( I have a powerful ozone generated used for cleaning pond water, fully capable of sterilising a whole room. It can actually corroded exposed metal parts if left on too long.)
I am not convinced of the advantages of breathing in negative ioniser air, but it does feel fresher than untreated air. The difference maybe attributed to the effective removal of dust, pollen, fungal spores and dirt from the air, all of which act as allergens. So their removal clearly has health benefits to the human immune system.
It seemed to me that most of the benefits of using an ioniser can be gained by enclosing it in a plastic box and blowing room air through the box using an equipment fan at the inlet. Fitting an earthed metal grill and dust trap at the outlet cleans the air and reduces the amount of negatively ioniser air that escapes into the room. My experiments suggests the system works reasonable well, to the point that the accmulated dust collected represented a fire hazard. Unfortunately the relative small size of the box and its earthing arrangements does not allow the the charged air to build up in the room in quite the same way as a free standing unit. So the choice seems to be clean air and dirty walls. Static electric dust collection has an advantage over nano or micro air filters in that they do not block and do not use any consumables.
yeh my black pyramid ionizer left a dirty, un-wash-offable soot mark on my wallpaper where it was sat in front of on a sideboard. I still have it, its upstairs, unplugged and getting dusty LOL the sweet revenge of dust.
@@JohnnyX50 At about the same time as the popularity of ionisers, there were cheaper , lower tech, fan based air cleaners that used replaceable filters loaded with activated carbon contained in porous artificial fibre packets. I have often wondered why they were not combined with electrostatic cleaners. My experiments with a Tupperware plastic boxes fitted with a fan and ioniser suggest that they are effective and do not suffer from the dirty wall problem. Their biggest drawback is they work too well, making it difficult to design the dust tray so as not to be a fire hazard or blow the accumulated dust and fluff back into the air. If I was to repeat my experiments now, I might design the dust trap with a cyclone feature to separate the charged dust from the clean air. Do you know if the Dyson air filter uses electrostatic precipitation or does it just use expensive microfiber filters?
I have seen advertised on television shopping channels a water based air filter, that some how blows air through scented water. The water turns black as the air is cleaned. I am not sure how these avoid excessive evaporation, raising the room air humidity to an acceptable level. Maybe they don't, which explains why I have not seen them for a while.
The water probably also turns black from the microorganisms happily multiplying in that pond, nourished by the influx of dust particles, which in turn love to travel on droplets carried with the "cleaned" air back into the room. Yay! - If you already decided to go with forced airflow (by means of fans), perhaps you might want to experiment with vacuum cleaner bags (perhaps cut them into mats and fit them into custom frames), or commercially available replacement air filters and their frames, possibly from the automotive industry.
@@Anvilshock you are right, I think the water based filters would be a good way to breed legionella bacteria. They certainly increase the room humidity to unacceptable levels, as does those water based evaporative coolers. ( Horrible things).
In my experiments I used a pair of metal speaker mesh grille as the earthed catcher electrode. I could have used one and some of the mineral wool used in cooker hoods, but my concern was the dust becoming a fire hazard. In my tests the dust built up on the mesh and fell to the bottom of the box where it could be periodically sucked out with a vacuum cleaner. Care was needed in opening the box, lest the fine trapped dust was puffed back into the room as a dirty noxious cloud. I did not run the experiment for long as the plastic of the box turned black with ingrained dirt, maybe because the plastic used to make Tupperware has its own surface charge. It was not the most attractive contraption,. But it did prove the principle.
As an idea, you could add two ports to the dustcatcher housing, each with a cap. When it comes to emptying the catcher, you attach your regular vacuum cleaner to one while the other one acts as a high-flowrate purging intake. That way you could leave the whole thing assembled while still having convenient access to emptying the thing.
For anyone playing along at home: acupuncture needles can be found on ebay for next to nothing and have an incredibly fine tip. You may want to experiment and invest in a name brand options if you want long lasting tips though - the cheapie batch I purchased (to clean the nozzle of a clogged 3D printer) claimed to be stainless steel but turn out to be highly magnetic...
"Controversial"
If Clive covered this and I missed it, its early. But is there a set number of needles per volts I noticed both units looked to have 5 needles, I watched his unit he made his folks, under the sink it only had one needle.
The main advantage of using lots of needles is that as one gradually gets eroded or furred up with dust the others take over. I made a version with a single needle for aiming at a wound, but usually use a bunch of needles in a hedgehog style.
Now I'm picturing someone doing acupuncture with electrically charged needles. Probably been tried before, at someplace like Guantanamo Bay.
@@tncorgi92 its how people are tortured with car batterys most of the time ^^
When you are a kid and want an air ionizer on christmas haha
I wanted a variac lol but never got one I'll try this year 😉
I remember back when getting a flash drive with 64MB was top of the line XD
I asked once for a G807 but Santa was out of...
@Penguins Forall LUXURY! The first hard drive I bought (for my employer) was $5000 and 10MB.
That must have been after the faux wood fad.
10:40 Theres a limit to how many stages you can use since there is a lot of voltage drop thru them, depending on what diodes you use. We use them to generate 120 kV for oilfield tools, and about 26-28 stages is the most you can reasonably use, but this depends on the supply impedance and diode resistance.
I assume the high voltage is to power instruments at the end of the string?
My favorite use of this type of technology is the ‘electrostatic precipitator’ that uses metal plates and tensioned wires. A fan draws the air through the stack, you have metal plates spaced a couple inches apart with the wires strung between them, the wire is negative and the plate is positive, then there’s another stack of plates that alternate in charge behind this first stack. I prefer these because it contains and traps the dirt in the machine as opposed to just forcing it to settle around the unit for you to clean up later. All you do is remove the ‘collector cell’ as it’s called, and wash it with a mild alkaline cleaner, let dry and reinstall.
We used to have a big version of something like that hanging from the ceiling in the smoking room at work, many years ago. No pyramid design and obviously no paper on top, but a similarly shaped base and mesh. It was designed for removing smoke from the air.
Awesome video, I always wondered about the practical functioning of these. I actually bought a few ionic breeze devices for my parents, they worked wonderfully to improve the air quality in their house, unfortunately, their pets shed way too much hair and quickly overcame the intakes.
Also, I love that bit at 14:45 after counting 21 capacitors "That's odd..." Thanks Clive, we really needed you to tell us that 21 was odd.
It really was odd. Most multipliers have an even number of capacitors.
I built one of these for 120V (Bag of 100 caps and bag of 100 diodes from AliExpress was like $5 delivered). The caps and diodes are all soldered together deadbug style (no PCB) in a long rod type form, reinforced with hotmelt glue, and stuffed into a 1/2" PVC pipe for a case. A few resistors (in a bit of vinyl tubing for add'l safety) and tied to the emitter.
The emitter was a bit of aluminum flashing cut into a star shape with very sharp points, and it works fine in as much as on dark, dry nights you can see a faint purple glow at the tips and it makes bits of tissue paper fly around from the static buildup. Could likely be better/more efficient but it works!
Been meaning to try adding a second electrode like the Dezac just to see how it would perform. Alternatively, I might modify my room filter to make the inner metal mesh of the filter element the opposite electrode, and have the ion generator near the filter unit inlet, so the crap gets caught directly in an air filter with some forced circulation. Hmmm!
As a kid we had one of those pyramid style ionisers (without the crazy mat)
Thanks for the nostalgia
My grandma had one of the later models of Ionic Breezes that were updated to fix the excess ozone production and it worked really well. She was a heavy smoker and it really did wonders for getting rid of the smoke and the smell. After she passed I used it for when my allergies got to the point the meds stopped working and it worked amazingly. Still have it but haven't used it in ages though.
Something that sits around, hisses, and makes an awful mess? I had a GF like that once, too.
Kitty.
Haha you made my day . . .
Did you manage to train her to shit on sheets of paper?
@@robinturner2300 i trained mine to use the toilet. Still doesn't know how to put seat down yet though.
Giovani Tapini most girlfriends insist upon it...
"Let's look at this appliance!"
*spends more than half the video giving a detailed explanation of what said appliance does prior to teardown*
I love you, Clive.
I built an ioniser from a kit here in Australia. Works a treat... Even after 40 years.
"Before christmas was even finished, I had it open."
That sounds a lot like me as a kid. I'd play with my toys until I was bored with them, then disassemble them. My dad got mad at me for it, and asked me why I was doing that, and I replied simply "I was bored with it and now I understand how it worked." He was unable to come up with a cogent reply.
Sadly, I have yet to come up with one that will work reliably on NA mains. My next attempt will involve trying to create a custom current limited step-up transformer (thats probably a bit ambitious...).
My dad not only encouraged that behavior, he helped. I was never done until it worked again.
Im glad you mentioned the lighty up pink Himalayan rock salt lampy thing. My mum bought me one (cost a fair chunk of money) saying the lady in the shop said put it in a room with electronics and it will take away all the headaches and bad feelings caused by said electronic devices. Crap, I said. Its a lump of salt with a light inside it, at best it will slightly dehumidify the room but start melting in the process. So its sat in my kitchen and lo and behold. it has started leaving salty dribble marks down the wooden bit and done sweet FA to anything electrical. Besides the only thing it could do to electronics is have a corrosive effect if it ever got spludged onto them. LOL. 1 - 0 to us electronics enthusiasts against wacko hippy grass munchers.
Ah, that would explain why a colleague at work has one of those things on her desk. Until this video I had no idea what it was supposed to be for (thought it might have even just been decorative, but I should have known better, given its owner!), but yeah, no surprise it's some quack nonsense :)
Thank you for saying something about energy crystal salt lick lamps
I got one for a reasonable price*... as purely decorative object (was sold without claims whatsoever)
*= ~20€ ... which I probably would have had to pay for any other decorative lamp, too
@@MrMegaPussyPlayer Yeah, they're really neat looking. I like them. I've just shied away from getting one, in case people thought I was buying into the claims. (To be clear, I'm not saying that they don't have benefits, as I truly have no idea if they do or don't.)
@@xenonram Stuff what other people think. If you think they look cool and you want one, get one.
@@skunkcabbages5040 I find a good ale cures what ales me.
Fossil98 fair enough, had to like that comment, you cheeky little shit
Years ago, I bought one of the small Ionic Breezes (integrated plug like a night light) and used it very briefly. Visibly and audibly arcing in there made me nervous to leave it unsupervised. As it was plugged in in the bathroom, I was not about to continually monitor it. If I want to try again, it will be something Big Clive approves of.
Those ones in Egypt are obviously broken.....
Not true! The dust collects in Sahara! works 10/10 ;)
touche'
It's because people stole the pointy bits at the top.
Aliens did it!
The batteries ran out years ago! Now if only they'd thought about solar power!! 😂
You asked for an air ionizer for Christmas when you were a kid? And I thought I was a little goofy!
Electrical engineers are a really really weird breed.
When I was little I asked for a 12V battery.
I know less than nothing about these things but was interested in your story about your workmates adverse reaction. Any time we have had a cheap ionizer at home I get a headache within 5mins. Everyone gets pissed, says Im mad and just looking for attention. VERY interesting - I must check out something like the Mountain Breeze (smoker, asthma and cats so I could do with something!)! Thanks Clive!
Yeah, but the rock salt ones taste good. Go through one every few months.
are you a moose in disguise?
I had a very old one with a fan and ultraviolet lamps inside, oh the air blowing out smelled so good! I miss that thing!
I was also fascinated as a kid. I wanted one too - they were in Argos at the time (the beige Mountain Breeze). I just wanted to take it apart and see how it worked.
If you shit it on a seat of paper, you will see the shit stains around it. I dig it. Cheers
Its 616 am I had to type this out 3 times to get it right.
Shut the shutters and sit in the shop.
Sally sells shit stains down by the shell store
If you shit on something, you'd better see shit stains. A lack of shit stains means your shit's teleported away and it's scavenger hunt time.
Dyslexia can be though to live with.
You can make it!
@rustybuttpate I used to travel for a living I'm up on I 80 in Wyoming restrooms are far and few between up there. Matter of fact I hate the dam "Elk Mountain" coming up sign for like 300 miles every mile or so. Anyway there was a truckers only stop I had to piss I figure better there then In front of some family along side the road, as I pull into the sleeping / rest area NO BATHROOMS NO WIFI I pull far right and there was a trucker standing on the passenger side of his truck. Standing up mind you with this Logg dangling between his legs pinching a loaf he was standing up, this wasn't his first time ( I'm thinking this guy must have Ben a bread maker at some point keeping in mind my pun about pinching a loaf). I have to say I was impressed a bit. But then he turns his head looks at me and pulls up his (about to have a real shitty day underwear) and pants jumps in his truck and hauls ass. I'm thinking man the next stop is 200 miles bro, he didn't wipe.
I know we've all had that brick that didn't require wiping but this was not that. Hell I was about to ask if he needed some shit paper I always carry some but he hauled ass so quick I didn't have the chance. I tried to forget I had seen this but then bigclive froidle slip of the tungetangleation. I remembered it all over agian. Thanks for sharing your story. Cheers/ have a good one/ good day mate.
I slit a sheet, a sheet I slit, upon the slitted sheet I sit.
Around the slitted sheet the shitted sheep slept
Many thanks. I have a similar one without the metal grid base that I bought probably 20 years ago. I will dig it out of the cupboard and get it back into use. It has an orange neon, which I never liked! I reckon these could be designed as part of LED replacement lamps, especially downlighters. Now I know the current is in the order of microamps I can leave mine running continually. I will chop out that neon...
I don't know Clive. If I found myself shitting an ionizer, I think I'd be fairly concerned. I'm guessing I would be pretty prompt in my visit to the ER to make sure I wasn't going to shit out any more small household appliances. Then I would probably get around to finding out exactly how it got in there in the first place... :-)
Mushrooms or the LSD. Would be my guess.
@@manitoba-op4jx Better out than in!
Thanks!
Thumbs up Indiana USA.
The amcor ionisers came with an indicator. It was a neon bulb that was mounted on a pcb with a capacitor. Similar to the screw drivers but it would flash when held (grounded).
Like Mr Clive I persuaded my parents to buy one. I still use it, the carbon fiber thread in low light gives mini static 'bolts' and makes that high pitched static noise when you place a finger near.
About 20/25 years on and it's still going. Model Multi 6/8, I'm guessing the highest version has 8 stages of filtration.
I long for the days of the crt television sets. they were the perfect air cleaner. If you ever opened one that had been working for a long time, you would find a massive amount of dust and dirt packed into the high voltage area.
Right up to the point it caused anode tracking.
Having worked on old CRT TVs. Gaming computers put them to shame. Can clean one and then a week or two later it already has a layer of dust building, very small but it seems to grow exponentially.
In the early 60's I read an article in Popular Mechanics or mag like that about ion propelled helicopters of the future. Ever notice those futures never came? So I built one out of aluminum screen and an array of needles. The power supply was external. It never lifted off, but made quite a breeze. Current limiting resistors, we don't need any stinking resistors. Had my parents only known the stuff I worked on.
Lifters. They're nice in theory, but require a lot of force to counteract gravity. They'd also put out a lot of ozone.
The tape holding the wires that go to the Neon is interesting. Only the tape that is 'exposed' turned brownish.
Speaking of low voltage powered ones, check out the Ioncare GH2151. 40mm muffin fan, tiny UVC lamp, positive spring tensioned corona wire before the negative collection plates, and the carbon fiber bristles also negatively charged, IE electrically in parallel with the plates. Oh and the potted HV supply has an adjustment pot for the output voltage. The HV is current limited to about 50 microamps short circuit, so it just barely pegs an analog multimeter on that range. The one I have was left behind at a rental property.
Had one when I was young. Recall the needles could make interesting blue glow in the dark. I also recall the mess could be hard to remove.
My first experience of an ioniser was touching one of the needles, that certainly woke me up with a zing... :P
Clive, we do also have household 240v in America, primarily for large appliances. But I doubt anyone would ever think about using it for such physically small things as an ionizer.
14:40 I didn't realise these things were filled with jelly beans!
Curiously, I also asked for an ioniser for Christmas (in the 80s, from DAK industries in the states)! Mine was fairly sealed, though, so I didn't try taking it apart until a couple years later when it started arcing between the emitter and collector (this was an oval cylinder with the midsection as the collector and one side of the tilted top as an emitter with a fibre pad doing the emitting -- wish I could find a photo).
During the pandemic, I've been keenly interested again in ionisers, as I found a study that showed active ionisation as extremely successful in preventing virus transmission in mice. I've been thinking of building powerful ones with separate collector plates (ideally self contained and hanging on an opposite wall) to have friends and family install in their homes and local restaurants put in to keep themselves safe.
Its weird that this hasnt been spread the word, as it kills viruses
Watching this while modifying my ioniser. Gonna give it a precipitating surface.
Wow I use to have one of these when I was about 14 and was fascinated with ionizers and ozone. Good nostalgia. I remember I used to touch the pins and my radiator (ground) for fun to make sparks and get shocked. I am not a smart man.
I have been considering something along these lines to serve a function in a fine dust particle separator. Managed to build a pretty good separator out of random things I had around and a lot of care with measurements. However more fine dust than I like is still finding it's way into my HEPA filter that sits at the tail end of the system. The idea I was thinking of is to use a small box to house an ioniser after depositing into the main dust collection bin, basically sitting in line between bin and vacuum source. Just worried the effect isn't fast enough for the intense air flow needed to serve as proper dust collection.
Have you considered modifying the unit to increase the length of the path from the needles to the mesh? Block the existing holes and drill some more round the top? Add an insulating square spacer to jack the pyramid up? Make it from perspex and you could see the works safely.
You've just bought back a long-lost memory with that Dezac.
I'm 95% sure that my Dad had a similar model in his office. (he was a manager in a shopping center in the 80s).
I remember seeing the pyramid with the needles sticking out, and he explained what it did. Well, not quite in the detail you've gone into here, but I got the gist. lol
I knew it probably wasn't a good idea to stick a finger near or on the needles, but I of course did try it once, and the current was incredibly low.
I'm guessing the pyramid was available without the grid + paper? I don't recall seeing that at the time.
2:27 😂 “Shit on a sheet of paper” 🚽
lol
I've mentioned my old pyramid ionizer before, it was black, and about 2/3 of the way up, there was a carbon fibre like 'string' made by Amcor, and it came with this strip of PCB material with a bulb on, that you held with your finger & thumb on pads on the PCB, it was kept on my desk, about 2 ft from my bed, and the sooty marks would form around it. My parents bought it to try and help with my asthma, which was an issue as we had a coal fire, and no central heating in the house at the time, what are your views on this for asthma issues Clive?
I think they do have a distinct effect on cleaning air, so that should help with asthma. The big Amcor units had a transformer and multiplier in them.
I used to put my finger very close to the 'string' and turn my bedroom light off, and could see and feel the purple sparks that it emitted. Next time I'm back in Yorkshire, I will see if it's in my dad's loft
I would keep it away from myself. Those charged dust particles stick very well, probably also to my lungs.
Don't underestimate the power of the plastic pyramid's role in cleaning the air and balancing your chakra.
Shame these devices have had any beneficial properties utterly smothered by quackery nonsense.
Quackery such as "balancing your chakra" comes to mind, xP
Chakra Khan? Doesn't it rock you?
Clive I hope you don't mind but I listen to your videos when I can't sleep. Very soothing. informative as all hell but I never make it to the end. Sorry and thank you.
That happens to a lot of people. Some use my videos to help them sleep.
You mention that 110V units would require 'double the stages', but it actually only requires one additional stage? That's why they're called Cockroft-Walton Voltage DOUBLERS
Nope. Each stage adds one more multiple of the original AC p-p voltage it's not exponential.
Nice video Clive, just wondering if you've received the KiloVolter and Avo MultiMinor I sent?
Yes I have, thanks.
bigclivedotcom OK, cool
haha I just yelled out "No don't!" at a youtube video when you decided to test-touch the needle
"beige", we had it, it was off white and gradually got beiger as time went by!
Making my parts list now.
No PCB even needed....
www.bigclive.com/ioniser.htm
Cool! Thanks.
in the US all homes have two separate 120 volt lines going into them so they can be combined to create 240.
120 is often not enough for quite a few applications most older homes will have 240 sockets in there basement it might be a good place too put an ioniser. I wonder if the uk ones would run okay at 60hz.
Just to avoid certain replays i'll mention a lot of people have the misconception that one line is 240 and one is 120 but that is not the case
The important thing with the ionizers is the reference to ground. It doesn't matter if you connect it to a 240V in the US. It's still only 120V to ground.
They will run slightly more efficient at 60Hz as the impedance of the capacitors is lower.
ChrisD4335 z
It probably wont be efficient to run voltage multiplier ionizer from two phases since you want HV between ionizer needle and ground. Chinese have negative ion generator modules and they most likely use switching transformer instead of diode-capacitor voltage multiplier so they can be run from low DC voltage
If we're being real specific, one line is +120v at the same moment the other is -120v, referenced to ground they are both 120v tho
Would it benefit this model at all if you reworked it & had a little carbon fiber brush coming out of the top?
That would be a huge improvement.
If you need a dust-free "Clean-Room" where you don't spend a lot of time then this kind of unit can be quite useful to keep dust particulates to a minimum.
Could we see a test of that unit as an experiment over say 2/3weeks? And assess the results?
It's been running for a few days with an extra small square of paper on top of one area to see if there is a colour difference. So far I'm not impressed.
A followup video would be nice, interested to see the results, thanks Clive 👍🏼
16:13
It can sound counterintuitive to say that the neon's resistor was in fact *over-rated* but that doesn't stop it from being correct. It only takes a few seconds of thinking before the pleasing moment when the penny drops and then you can't wait to tell everyone.
Strange the same Kind of dirt is sticking on TV flybacks when you have the ones with the grey casings ,maybe a similar thing?
It is down to electrostatic effects. The back of a TV tube is part of a capacitor with the other part being the anode coating inside.
I have a potted ionizer module which runs on 5V, the output do want to be arcing to the 5V input side so I think the 5V side is tied to 1 side of the output transformer, I guess we could just connect the 5V side to earth so it will create a better imbalance between grounded surfaces and the high voltage output?
I assumed a Yank would just have to add one extra multiplyer stage to make up for the 120 volt U.S. mains. Then I remembered I/R. Definitely a voltage doubling transformer first. Thank you for jogging my brain.
I've got an ionic pro, which was a clone of the ionic breeze.
They do seem to help with my roomate being allergic to everything, and the plates inside do seem to collect a fair amount of stuff out of the air...
It has three super thin wires at the back and three plates inside that are removable for cleaning.
We had it too close to him and he kept getting shocked while using his PC because it kept charging him up
I wonder if something like a small fan behind a filter with a shroud pulling air across a set of these ionising needles would work well to contain the mess and maybe improve the efficiency. Anyone had a go or got any insight?
Blueair does that in addition to their HEPA filters. Before the air enters, they ionize the air and then pull it through a metallic grating.
Very intriguing and interesting video Clive
Regarding negative vs positive it helps to remember that all electrons are negatively charged so they are always chasing positively charged atoms to make that atom neutral. Conversely protons are positively charged and are always chasing negatively charged atoms to become neutral. Charge is quantized thus a system won't necessarily achieve neutral atoms (there is resistance). It also means free electrons can be trapped in an atom at high voltage or called electrically charged ionization. Or in other words it increases the negative charge of an atom because electron is just another way of saying negative.
this tech is so cool! ...... one thing though, what would that do with nearby electronics? ... and can it build up high voltage charges on nearby ungrounded metal surfaces?.
It's best kept away from electronic stuff and it does cause a charge build up on adjacent surfaces. If you hold your hand near the needles it charges your body up and you get a static zap from grounded objects.
Ionizers...yep..have had a few myself and was always wondering how come some gave the mountain breeze effect while others did #ff all...I was always hoping to find a way of keeping my vinyl dust free...vv informative informative vid
You can draw sombrero’s really well 😂👍🏼
*Electrostatic Precipitator!*
(I want something like this!)
I remember buying an ioniser in the late 80s for my 2 year old who had allergies, I was itching to pull it apart to see what was inside but missus banned me from doing so. Never know what happened to it but I know it did something because I recall the dirt collection along the front of it. I recall there was a sort of silk string across its front and I put my finger near it when the room was semi dark and I saw a gentle blue spark. Interesting stuff. Can you still buy these things??
You can find them on eBay second hand. If the string along the front was black then it was probably carbon fibre string.
Clive can you Mod this one with a needle where the neon is and demonstrate the way it collects dirt/dust on a piece of paper. Compared to how it does with the needles on one side. Cheers Garry.
I got to build on of these winter in Kansas is cold.
Why don't they have an isolated supply so the dust only sticks to the mesh? Ie no reference to ground. What am I missing?
The reason why a negative charge is used is because both Carbon and Oxygen have either half or more of the secondary ring of electrons filled (2,8,8....) which basically means they gain negative charge easier as the atoms want to fill those electron rings more than it wants to lose the electrons from the rings
I picked up one of those Ionic Breeze things from a thrift store. I'm not really sure if it ever worked right. I need to open it up one of these days.
Given how dirt precipitates around it, people probably put them in a section of the room that's *easy to clean* yeah? Like way out on it's own sitting on the middle of a rug or something.
"You know, there are limits to how much you should breathe" -BigClive 2018 ;)
"There seems to be a problem with your respiratory system."
"What's that?"
"You're still breathing."
Fascinating! I also just realised that THIS might help massively with my allergies! Any recommendations, range from £35 upwards....any better to spend more? Thanks Clive!
I wonder if the mess could be contained. Say you put an array of needles in a box oposing a pan and blow air through it, then all the dust would collect in the pan to be vacuumed out?
Edit: Would say 20 to 30cm distance between needles and pan.
An up to date version would be Air purifier / ionizer Viktor, Stadler Form.
Could be interesting to stick the small ioniser unit in a vacuum might make the visually effect easier to see or do nothing~
Given the low current draw, I feel like you could design a battery powered version.
Would a joule thief be powerful enough for it? 2nd thoughts, maybe the power supply has to swing negative for the voltage multiplier to work. I also wonder what an increase of frequency would achieve.
What would you suggest for controlling dust in a plastic cyclone - piped with pvc? Its high velocity - with a 5 horse motor. I think the static is causing the particles to cling and not drop out. Thank you!
So you're saying that all you need to make one of these right, is to have a low volume fan + a dirt trap that's in the way of the needles and the exit from a tube?
Presumably a different Ion Tech to the one that built those very good ion mills used in electron microscopy? (They were justifiably famous for their saddle-field ion beam sources, with their very rapid beam abrasion performance!).
Clive, for those of us wanting to buy an off-the-shelf ioniser, can you recommend what to look for?
It depends where you are in the world as the traditional ones tend to be for European voltage.
Chinese trading sites have negative ion generator modules they self contained so you only need to add an enclosure for a device, they probably have switching transformer inside instead of diode voltage multiplier since they come in 110V and even 12V
Just use the garden blower and Hoover combo like the rest of us. Particulate intake will spike while near road traffic much more than at home.
Eventually I'll have mad Clive skills and be able to fix my bork'd air filter/ioniser unit :-/
Wonder if anyone's used an ionizer to reduce the intake of dust into a PC. Or would that be a bad idea... Maybe build the case so that before entering the case, the air passes through a chamber with negatively-charged points at the entrance and a positive-charged grid on the other end before the entrance to the PC.
I'm still learning about ionizers but correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a jacobs ladder effectively the same ? Positive or negative ? Hmmmm.... I'm still learning 👍 great vid again 😉
'Down to Earth ioniser.' Groan!
you say it would take double the number of stages from 120v? Wouldn't it just be one more stage, since they approximately double at each stage?
Each stage is just based on the incoming voltage. It doesn't double each time.
Definitely worth thinking about negative charge and health (or the loss of positive charge to ground). Thanks for the info again on ionisers. I'm surprised these aren't more popular. It seems most organisms are constantly trying to shed positive charge. If biological systems go out of control charge wise, they likely become acidic. Excrement exports net positive, for example, urine contains (amongst other things) urea. A barely charged product of converting positively charged metabolites such as ammonia and amino acids. Effectively mopping up positive charges and excreting them. Sweat as well sheds net positive (Na+, K+ etc...). Its documented that people gain weight in subcutaneous water in planes - sign of inflammation - (planes are basically an RF amplification tube charging people up lol!). Feels rubbish on a flight! Are DVT and increased BP recognised risks on planes but less so on other modes of transport closer to ground? Cool breeze or wind will strip positive ions off animals too. Would hairs or feathers amplify this effect being thin sharp tubes? Refreshing standing in the breeze anyway. Or bare foot on a beach! Ha ha ha 😂 Birds seem to be masters at staying well when in the air (unlike humans)! The higher above ground level we go the more positive charge we accumulate. There is a book that collects the science but I can't for the life of me remember what it is :( if anyone here is interested I'll look into it. I dont have access to it right now :(
This product places dust collecting paper on the suction side of ion flow, it is not ionized.
Make sure the direction of the ionization needle is charged dust.
Is not it more efficient for the air current to go to the collection paper?
The mystery of the Egyptian pyramids is solved.
Some theories believe that a blunt flat surface departs ionized particles better than sharp points, in the same counter-intuitive behavior to recent lighting rod discoveries. Whereby a flat blunted lighting rod is far superior to pointed spikes and silly expensive porcupine toppers.
How many HV systems have you ever seen or worked with? Ions *very definitely* are lost through sharp points at a much greater rate than smooth, flat areas.
The trick with making an ionizer is to find an old ccfl backlight driver so that you have 400-1000V instead of 240 to start. Less capacitors and lower value of them that way.
I have a box full of those - and the CCFL's. I need to find a way to get rid of them :)
Why not put an air ionizer in front of fans to stop build up of dust on the blades to help maintain performance...