I don’t have the experience right now as a player to talk on placement in the meta, but some things I find more enjoyable with Zen over Katsu is he doesn’t rely on hitting with attack actions hitting and having interesting plays with the chest piece generating resources. I think he suffers more against decks that offer strong disruption, but he can play better into decks that block well, from my perspective at least. I think if anything that I noticed is that he wants to snowball his advantage, but especially in Aggro mirrors, if he’s behind he would not have an easy time on the backfoot. Right now I think Zen is still not solved for the most part, but he is a nice change of pace over all!
One Deckbuilding choice that has been kind of working for me with Zen is using almost all of the transcend cards. Because, most of the time, if you have the new Chest you can make a 2 card/10 damage play by trancending the two cards, getting Qi Unleashed from deck with 1 Chi and pitching the other to play Qi Unleashed. Then, the other 3 damage come from the Crouching Tiger you created and the Khakkara you activated with the two resources you gained from the new chest
the main problem with zen imo is he completely falls apart if you need to block (at least from what I've seen). That being said if he doesn't get disrupted he can have very consistent high value hands.
That is what I have experienced. It seems better to make them block, eat their 2 cards worth of damage and keep giving them 3 or 4 cards value damage next turn
Tbh, I'm a little disappointed in Zen. I was looking forward to the "super disruptive combos" that Bryan Gottlieb had been teasing at, but I'm just not seeing it. Maybe it'll be a new Prism situation where we get an expansion slot card that really makes it work, but I don't think that's the right way to release a hero. I'm still going to be playing Zen, I might bring him to the Calling at Nats, but I still think Katsu is the better Ninja overall, even for Tigers. He's just more consistent with being able to fetch combo pieces. It's sad that everyone was ready for Mistveil to be the Ninja set and then the Ninja hero was the worst in the set, but oh well. If nothing else, Zen will be my fun deck to play at armories.
My take is that the difference between Katsu and Zen rely on what they need to get going. Katsu needs his attacks to hit, so he overperforms against other aggro decks but might struggle to pop off against decks that block efficiently. Zen does not rely on that, he relies on an early transcend on the game and he can pop off when he needs with the helmet. Also, there are decks that run the bonds and combo package, that if you transcend early can really put out crazy numbers without relying on any on hits. I find it different enough from Katsu (neither stronger or weaker yet, each deck has its own weaknesses) that he can coexist with the other ninjas.
So far I can threaten between 6 and 20 damage per turn with Zen. I have had better luck getting mask of momentum triggers with him than Katsu. Granted this open format talishar and no one has him figured out but I think he has more opportunities to get 3 to hit with all the tigers.
It's funny watching this now during worlds because I think people pretty much have come to the conclusion that Zen is just better than katsu ya? I know this is like right when he came out so it was hard to tell.
Double transcend --> trigger Kasaya twice --> Orihon of Mystic Tenets (1 floating) --> Art of War --> pop Pouncing Paws --> Activate Zen (I personally play a single copy of Dishonor and 3 copies of Find Center) Our group is small (6 people; this was not Talishar, we papered our decks) and we're not pros for sure, I only got 5 games in with Zen (been practicing with Enigma), but I pulled this off in 3 of those games, all three games I won (ended up winning 4 out of 5, with my 4th being with Breeze Riders pop into double Find Center AND Dishonor, but that was a nut draw) I think people are disappointed by the Bryan Gottlieb "Todd Howard hype" that it took away a lot of the steam from Zen. I also think a lot of people are legitimately building him wrong, but I guess we'll see in a month or 2 when the meta settles
The line you showed above in insanely situational and has to line up.I dont want to play a deck that relies on that. 2 Chi with a AoW and Book. 4 cards that dont block that all have to be in the hand at the same time.
@TCGTALKYT was going to have a long response, but I think We Make Best video shows exactly what the ceiling is. Might have to cut my Dishonor and Find Center for Leylines now
I don’t have the experience right now as a player to talk on placement in the meta, but some things I find more enjoyable with Zen over Katsu is he doesn’t rely on hitting with attack actions hitting and having interesting plays with the chest piece generating resources. I think he suffers more against decks that offer strong disruption, but he can play better into decks that block well, from my perspective at least.
I think if anything that I noticed is that he wants to snowball his advantage, but especially in Aggro mirrors, if he’s behind he would not have an easy time on the backfoot. Right now I think Zen is still not solved for the most part, but he is a nice change of pace over all!
One Deckbuilding choice that has been kind of working for me with Zen is using almost all of the transcend cards. Because, most of the time, if you have the new Chest you can make a 2 card/10 damage play by trancending the two cards, getting Qi Unleashed from deck with 1 Chi and pitching the other to play Qi Unleashed. Then, the other 3 damage come from the Crouching Tiger you created and the Khakkara you activated with the two resources you gained from the new chest
I really thought zen will be distruption ninja that happens to have a tigers but he is tiger ninja no distruption
the main problem with zen imo is he completely falls apart if you need to block (at least from what I've seen). That being said if he doesn't get disrupted he can have very consistent high value hands.
That is what I have experienced. It seems better to make them block, eat their 2 cards worth of damage and keep giving them 3 or 4 cards value damage next turn
Tbh, I'm a little disappointed in Zen. I was looking forward to the "super disruptive combos" that Bryan Gottlieb had been teasing at, but I'm just not seeing it. Maybe it'll be a new Prism situation where we get an expansion slot card that really makes it work, but I don't think that's the right way to release a hero.
I'm still going to be playing Zen, I might bring him to the Calling at Nats, but I still think Katsu is the better Ninja overall, even for Tigers. He's just more consistent with being able to fetch combo pieces.
It's sad that everyone was ready for Mistveil to be the Ninja set and then the Ninja hero was the worst in the set, but oh well. If nothing else, Zen will be my fun deck to play at armories.
I see Zen as a more variance higher power spikes
Can have clunky no block hands but also 40+ combo turns that is not reliant on hitting like katsu
My take is that the difference between Katsu and Zen rely on what they need to get going. Katsu needs his attacks to hit, so he overperforms against other aggro decks but might struggle to pop off against decks that block efficiently. Zen does not rely on that, he relies on an early transcend on the game and he can pop off when he needs with the helmet. Also, there are decks that run the bonds and combo package, that if you transcend early can really put out crazy numbers without relying on any on hits. I find it different enough from Katsu (neither stronger or weaker yet, each deck has its own weaknesses) that he can coexist with the other ninjas.
I would say Zen is better in defense then other ninjas and have more options to be played as mid-range deck. Edit: also card pool
Great video! Just a tip - Wind Chakra is pronounced "shock-ruh", not "shuh-kar-uh" :)
So far I can threaten between 6 and 20 damage per turn with Zen. I have had better luck getting mask of momentum triggers with him than Katsu. Granted this open format talishar and no one has him figured out but I think he has more opportunities to get 3 to hit with all the tigers.
It's funny watching this now during worlds because I think people pretty much have come to the conclusion that Zen is just better than katsu ya? I know this is like right when he came out so it was hard to tell.
Fai is no longer playable when you can just banish my Phoenix Flames
Double transcend --> trigger Kasaya twice --> Orihon of Mystic Tenets (1 floating) --> Art of War --> pop Pouncing Paws --> Activate Zen (I personally play a single copy of Dishonor and 3 copies of Find Center)
Our group is small (6 people; this was not Talishar, we papered our decks) and we're not pros for sure, I only got 5 games in with Zen (been practicing with Enigma), but I pulled this off in 3 of those games, all three games I won (ended up winning 4 out of 5, with my 4th being with Breeze Riders pop into double Find Center AND Dishonor, but that was a nut draw)
I think people are disappointed by the Bryan Gottlieb "Todd Howard hype" that it took away a lot of the steam from Zen. I also think a lot of people are legitimately building him wrong, but I guess we'll see in a month or 2 when the meta settles
The line you showed above in insanely situational and has to line up.I dont want to play a deck that relies on that. 2 Chi with a AoW and Book. 4 cards that dont block that all have to be in the hand at the same time.
@TCGTALKYT was going to have a long response, but I think We Make Best video shows exactly what the ceiling is. Might have to cut my Dishonor and Find Center for Leylines now