Tone Master PRO vs Fractal: is the new Firmware an upgrade as regards the real JCM 800?
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- Опубликовано: 29 июл 2024
- With this video we will check out how good is the Tone Master PRO new firmware in terms of Marshall JCM 800 simulation, also comprising versus Fractal I hope you enjoy!.
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⏰Timecodes:
0:00 - Intro
0:52 - Tests explanation
1:29 - Test 1: Full song
1:54 - Test 1: Just Guitar
2:18 - Test 2: Drive and eq
3:42 - Test 2: Bass Frequency
4:06 - Test 2: Dynamic range
5:16 - Test 2: Note Envelop
6:29 - My Two Cents
#Fender #ToneMasterPRO #FractalFM3 
Видеоклипы
As always, great video! Thank you very much for all your work and all the best, Leo!!
You are welcome and I'm really happy that you like the video!!!
Leo, we greatly appreciate the work you do for the guitar community!!! 🎸 We all thank you!!! 🙏🏽
You are welcome and I'm really happy that you appreciate the videos!!!!
I got a headrush gigboard a few years ago thanks to your review, but I’m considering upgrading to the fractal now because I’m starting to feel limited by the gigboard. And well now I’m back watching your videos on the fm3 and I thank you for helping me get to know the fm3 better. I definitely think I’ll be ordering one! Keep up the great work!
Thank you so much! I'm really happy to have been of some help!!!
Wow! Im really blown away by how "DARK" the noon settings on the Tone Master make it sound, its kinda mind blowing to see this because you'd at least think that this "noon" position of everything would be the easiest and closest thing to get right initially. Thank you Leo for the wealth of info as always!! Cant wait to see you do a Quadcortex vs Ampero Stage II shoot out!
Thank you for sharing your findings!!
Yes, I was really supersede too!!!
Thank you also for your suggestion!
Very thorough comparison as always Leo. You are the best at this. All sounded very musical and similar. I bet if you threw in a sub-$400 modeler, it would have also sounded very close. God bless and rock on 👍😎🎸
Hey, this is not a bad idea for a series, something like "David vs Goliath", trying to get the same tone out of cheap and top tier modelers.
Thank you! Yes, it would be an interesting test to do!!
Would be interesting a test between two jcm 800 amps to find if at same specs, sound stay consistent between the amps at same settings.
Great A/B/C Would you use the 800 for anything in todays music? I try to dial them in and its just not as good as some newer offerings. Even for metal gigs ill go BE100 or Bogner. would enjoy some Orange comparisons???
Thank you for sharing and I'm happy that you like the video!
Your channel is criminally underrated
Thank you soooo much!!!!
Hello Leo thank you for all your videos i know its very subjective but i never had chance to use a fractal or quad cortex unit i have but i use plugins like mercuriall amphub valhala with a good rme interface ect but becaus i never had hardware i always think that i can have a better tone using hardware from your experience do you think that tones with hardware are more good than plugins ?
Have a nice day and thank you for your always useful videos
Hi, you are welcome!
With plugin you can obtain amazing tones! With hardware you are not going to improve your tone, but maybe your experience. I mean you are gonna have an all in one unit to play live, typically latency is gonna be better, unless you run your plugin with something like an Apollo interface, etc.
I hope this could help.
@@LeoGibsonGtr thank you Leo yes it helps me a lot from a pro like you, i dont live just home studio so thank you for taking time to answer me :)
You are welcome!
They're all pretty close, pretty much in the realm of tone pot tolerances between amps. Certainly closer than different modelers were 10 years ago. I've owned two Studio 800s and, despite being PCB builds, both sounded noticeably different from each other. Both lacked bottom end and "oomph" but one had even less bottom end no matter how I tweaked the knobs. I don't think the TMP is modeling a Studio amp.
See my comment above, a friend and I in the 80s each had an 800 and they were wildly different. I've always thought that you shouldn't try to match the knob settings if you have the amp vs the modeler, because there are so many variables.
all sounds good to me, i choose FM3 because it's cheaper than the real amp and tmp. i believe in a mix with drum, bass and vocal it will be harder to notice the differences between these unit. thanks for the comparison leo
Hi, thank you for sharing your findings!!!
Hi Leo. What brand tubes are you running in the real marshal. It would be interesting to see how much the tone of the real amp changes with some tube swaps. I’ve noticed that power tubes and preamp tube brands can make as much of a difference as is being noticed between the different units.
Hi, I'm using the original ones, I mean the ones that come with the amp and the amp is pretty new...it has around 6 to 8 months....
Thank you for your question!
Thanks for the reply. I would be interested to know what tube brand they are. Different brands can have more or less midrange. More midrange would generally increase the overall gain of the amp. High mids tend to make an amp sound brighter. The fender could be be replicating some NOS Vintage tubes or a specific modern tube that is more flat in its frequency response. The modelers are generally trying to mimic how a tube amp would react in different stages in the signal chain. How the amps responds to pick attack at volume control clean up etc. Where a profile is just capturing the sound being created in the moment by that device. That being said, a modeler still needs to be modeled after a particular component whatever that component may be. And whatever specific variation of that component.
Agree they did a nice job with the update and I’m glad I held onto my TMP and looking forward to more improvements and updates
Hi, thank you for sharing!
Are you sure the same model of Marshall JCM800 is available everywhere? Because it seems to me that the 'real amp' is the 2203, while in the Tone Master Pro and Fractal it's the 2204. There's a significant difference in sound between the 2203 and the 2204.
The differences between all 3 were noticeable. Have you ever compared your "real Amp" against other units of the same model? Is it a good representative of Classic Marshall tones? Your Amp seems to be particularly bright. I've heard a number of Marshall Amps on RUclips that vary widely in tone. It makes it difficult to assess such comparisons.
I think there should be an "Amp Database of Tones" online that can be used to compare Modelers to. Some time ago, I started saving links to examples of Classic Amp tones that I liked so I have something to compare to when I dial in my Modeler. This is the best I've been able do. 🤷
Hello Leo, to do a fair comparison, you CANNOT use your own IR. You have to route the Fractal to the TMP and use the "internal" TMP IR. The reason is that native IR's handle power amp modelling, whereas external IR's still have a bug in the TMP, where the poweramp/speaker impedance modelling does NOT work yet. The next update is supposed to fix this.
Well, that routing would need some digital ADA conversion, if I understood it well...therefore it would mess up the results....and there is an also a problem with the real amp...Should I route the real JCM into the TMP? How can I do it? Honestly, if Fender has a bug...it's up to them to correct it...Actually I think that the approach used in the video is correct...
Thank you for your message!
@@LeoGibsonGtr Please try the new firmware...it has proper IR impedence curve modelling now :)
@@algorithm007ify Hi, thank you for letting me know!
I appreciate you doing this and I understand why you do this, but I also think there's limited value in it due to the variation in JCM800s.
Perhaps the brand new ones are more consistent, but in the 80s, I played in a band with a friend and we both had Marshall 50 watt JCM800s. Mine sounded very shrill and had much less gain available than his did. And I tried plugging into his cab and changing all the tubes a few times, which adds up. I went to try and buy a different one and it was different from either of ours, so I ended up with a Peavey VTM120.
Hi, thank you for sharing!
Let me add that this is exactly why in this comparison I've added also the FM9...which is more close to the real amp... and, honestly, I've never heard a real JCM lacking so much highs and presence like the TMP...the basic settings of the TMP (in my opinion) are kind of messed up...fortunately now, tweaking, we can get much closer than with the previous version.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
@@LeoGibsonGtr As I said, maybe they're more consistent now, but the one I had and the other I tried out in the 80s were far too shrill while my friend's sounded good. Aside from tube changes, they were all stock.
Leo you did get closer with the JCM tone in the FTM but still it was off,the Hotone Ampero sounds better then the FTM with the JVM 800 amp sim compared to the original JVM 800 amp!
Leo, its well known that the TMP interaction with 3rd party IRs needs some attention. A more apt comparison would be to use each untits stock internal irs no?
Hi, to make an apple to apple comparison, we should use the same IR for both the modellers and the real amp, in my opinion.
As regards the IR problem...it's a pity that Fender does not list this problem among the open issues, in the firmware upgrade download page....there are other issues, but this one is not mentioned....this is a pretty bad behaviour...in my opinion. These are the known issues listed in the Fender web page: "Cannot re-download cloud preset after deleting it from My Downloads . Closing Desktop App while Tuner is active on hardware unmutes Tuner . Wrong Cab edit name displayed if User IR is replaced with factory cab in a preset"
Thank you!
@@LeoGibsonGtr I see your point, but there are also a lot of people in the modeling world who have no desire to go down the IR rabbit hole. I think for those folks a comparison with stock IRs is also valid. I know the Fender reps have acknowledged the IR issue on forums, Facebook, etc., but you're right it should be on the fw notes. Really dig your channel, by the way. Thank you for the quality content and thoughtful reply!
They both sound good
Thank you for sharing!
After ten seconds my ear gets used to and enjoys all of them
Thank you for sharing!
Will you do Headrush Core or Prime?
Hi, unfortunately I don't have the new Headrush units...if Headrush will send me a unit, I will be happy to review and compare. Thanks!
Would be interesting to have a more scientific approach in the tests by comparing frequency spectrum for exemple. Good video anyway, thanks 👍
Thank you for your suggestion!
This again brings me to my main point: these units basically are all the same. It is only the computer code, the algorithms etc. that are different and only this is what we are comparing. Kind of sad but that's what it is. Find better programmers that program "better" zeros and ones and you have it. This being said, you can expect the TM to become better and better. This is also the reason why cheap modellers have become so good in our days. At some point you won't notice differences in digital units.
Hi, thank you for sharing your experience and your findings!
The huge advantage, in my humble opinion, that the Tone Master has is the incredibly intuitive interface. There is literally no unit that matches it, including the Head Rush for ease of use. I have several units and sold several others. I kept my Kemper(too much invested in profiles), ToneX(value for the money is too good), and Tone Master. I find myself enjoying the process of editing and building rigs on the Tone Master way better than the other units.
I don't understand the expectation that they should all be exactly the same. You'll find that kind of variation in the amps themselves. The 800 Fender used to model will be different than the 800 Fractal used and the 800 Line6 used etc. If you had them all lined up next to each other with all controls at noon, they'll each sound different.
I feel like both modelers sound nearly identical. But I bet money that if the samples weren’t labeled people on here would be saying the real amp has too much digital fizz in the top end. lol.
😀 Thank you for sharing!
Can you review friedman IR-X
Hi, unfortunately I don't have it...maybe in the coming months!!!
While the TMP was much darker it seemed to have better high end when adjusted than the Fractal. Fractal was giving a little bit of digital fizz.
Hi, thank you for sharing your findings!
It always amazes me how good Fractal is. Except for the price. I guess it's fair enough.
Hi, thank you for sharing!
My outdated AX8 straight up destroys the TMP!
I’m sorry to say the actual amps blows them away. The tone master sounds better to me. What says you? Being in the room you can really hear the difference
Hi Leo. Have you ever compared two or more real amps of the type? I think you will find that no two amps sound exactly the same with the same settings. They are analogue. You need to tweak EVERY amp to get the sound that you want. So these tests are point less as all the sims can sound like a real a real amp. No one on earth can pic sim from real in a mix.
Yes, I did. I made a video also checking out two captures of the same amps in two different moments....
Actually, that's why I added also the FM9 to this comparison....where you can notice that for instance at the basic setting the FM9 is much closer to the real deal....at the basic settings...the TMP (in my opinion) is pretty odd....it's so lacking presence and treble....
tmp has an ir/ic issue that fender is not admitting to or addressing.
Hi, I hope they will solve it soon...actually not admitting such a problem it's a pretty not acceptable behaviour...in my opinion.
Thank you for sharing!
As early as three months ago Fender has responded to this issue several times, acknowledging that the SIC is not applied to 3rd party IRs and you might get less than optimal results using them. They have also stated that they will improve 3rd party IR support in the future, but that their most important priority at launch was to make the Tone Master Pro sound great out of the box. It's hard for me to understand how you project yourself as an expert on these devices but were not aware of this conversation. In my opinion, calling out people for not doing something that they actually have already done in not acceptable behavior.
Man, I'm simply responding to a comment...do you work for Fender? they issued some firmware upgrades without solving such a big problem and you take their part? I honestly don't understand such position...this is not a cheap product...this is very very expensive...and such problems are simply NOT ACCEPTABLE!
Furthermore these are the known issues highlighted by Fender in their web site: "Known Issues: Cannot re-download cloud preset after deleting it from My Downloads . Closing Desktop App while Tuner is active on hardware unmutes Tuner . Wrong Cab edit name displayed if User IR is replaced with factory cab in a preset ".... Where is the IR tone problem?
I don't work for Fender. I have just grown tired of people that present their uninformed opinions as some sort of unbiased experiments.
You said that they have not admitted the problem. You insinuate that they are doing something underhanded and trying to hide a problem. They have been engaged with users on TGP and Discord and this issue has been discussed since last November.
I am new to modelling and the TMP is the first device of its type that I have owned. I am kind of shocked that a novice like me can have a better knowledge of this device than all of the self-proclaimed experts on you tube.
Why they are not reporting this very important IR issue in the issue log in the firmware upgrade page? Not every body is following their discord channel...and the easiest and more transparent way is to write explicitly their issues in the firmware upgrade page (and not just some of them)...they are reporting some of the issues but not all...this is misleading and quite a bad behaviour.... Nobody has to be obliged to follow all the posts or the social channels of a brand to know the weaknesses of a product, being him and expert or a novice...
Leo, both modelers couldn't emulate the real amp yet, but in the mix a normal audition can't tell the difference and a tube amp is out of reach for a lot of people these days. 😁
Hi, thank you for sharing!
And that is why I only record real Marshall amps. My quad cortex is just for convenience and lightweight travel. For a real recording it is always the real deal
Hi, thank you for sharing!
Big tonal differences between fender and real amp , less evident in the mix as expected
Hi, thank you for sharing your findings!
When the first Tonemaster amplifier was launched on the market the message was: we want to concentrate all the computing power on a single model and do it to the best of the possibilities provided by the DSP; when the Tonemaster pedalboard arrived, it seems to me that the basic philosophy of the project was lost, and the quality of the emulations, like the JCM 800 for example, seems to me to be a bit of a confirmation.
That's why I didn't expect the Tonemaster to be better than other modelers already on the market.
Fractal still the best👌🏻…
Fractal is loads better tone then TM
Thank you for sharing!
Yes....
I like the design of the hardware, but the tones just aren’t quite there yet. I hope Fender figures it out, because they did a great job on the hardware. With Fractal, it’s the opposite. Amazing tones, but not the best UI or layouts in their hardware design. QC probably has the best balance between the two right now, but I keep hoping that Fractal comes out with a better UI and pedal format.
Hi, thank you for sharing!
The tone master pro is just not on the same levels as Fractal, Neural and line 6. The price they asking is ridiculous.
Hi, thank you for sharing!
Tone master👎
Thank you for sharing!
These never sound like the amp they are modeling, Your only fooling yourself with that modelling garbage.