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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- (3*) Does getting double-blocked cause enrage abilities to trigger twice? What about "whenever you gain life" abilities"?
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A: No for enrage, yes for archangel.
Bonus: Umezawa's Jitte and Mephidross Vampire
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Regarding it being intuitive, personally, I would think the raptor should draw 2 for a similar reason. Obviously not how the rules work right now, but flavorwise, it feels like the raptor does something when it gets hit and it functionally got hit twice.
Maybe going forward, or even an errata, could just change how Emrage and similar abilities are worded to specifiy simultaneous damage from multiple sources.
Raptor does something when he gets enraged. He gets enraged when getting hit, but it makes sense he can't get "double enraged" in the same "fight"(combat).
@@Sharakad Except that logic completely breaks down if it gets blocked by a double striker. One fight, two enrage triggers.
@@jeezuhskriste5759 It's two different phases though. He takes damage in the first strike phase, things resolve. Then he takes damage in the normal phase and things resolve.
This is what I thought too. Since it was two individual sources dealing damage, it should count as two damage sources. Which is also a bit of a cheeky little trick you can do when attacking with, say, a Colossal Dreadmaw into a Phyrexian Obliterator and a squirrel token. If they choose to double block, you can order the squirrel to be first and then distribute all damage to the squirrel, therefore never damaging the Obliterator in the first place.
It genuinely doesn't make logical sense for two creatures to count as one damage source.
This was my question! Thank you so much!
It comes from the true stories collection. At the GRN prerelease, I controlled Dawn of Hope and I attacked with three 1/1 lifelink tokens. The judge ruled that I should only get one trigger! Thankfully it didn’t end up mattering, and after the game I showed the judge the Gatherer ruling on the card.
3 different pronunciations of "Jitte" within a minute and I still don't know which is right!
It's actually pronounced Umezawa's Yeet
It’s a loanword from Japanese, so it’s pronounced “Jitte” just like how it’s spelled.
The first syllable can also be pronounced like "joot" rhyming with "hoot" or "boot". It shouldn't matter much unless you're talking about martial arts or government official.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitte
The first pronunciation at 3:51 is closest to Japanese, minus the last syllable where Dave’s version sounds more like ‘tey’ than ‘te’.
There’s three parts: ‘ji’ sounds like jeans but shorter; ‘te’ is like above; and ‘t(te)’ asks you to hold the consonant - like saying ‘pat-ty’ rather than saying ‘pa-tty’
He did the same when referring to Voja. Cracks me up every time
Ugh, I knew the answer for each situation, but I had never thought about how these rules don't really "line up" with each other. A great reminder why Magic rules feel so dense and non-intuitive to new players!
I think if the rules were to be adjusted so that the two scenarios were not to be different, that it should be the scenario with the Dinosaur that changes, and for the same reason that Thune does it twice: "Each time a *source* deals damage" is a more intuitive way to think about damage. Yes, all the damage is happening at the same time, but that doesn't change that it's all coming from different sources. The Dino is taking two lots of 3 damage, from two different sources, as part of the same 'deal combat damage' game action, with no player getting priority between them - it is one game action responsible for all the damage happening, but it is still two sources, so it makes more intuitive sense to suggest damage is happening to it 'twice'. The game has no trouble with multiple things happening simultaneously, since any triggers they trigger will simply go on the stack based on the stack ordering rules already existent.
Both should only be one instance imo because its all happening at the same time. Raptor is a whenever as is the lifegain dude.
If it was when a source causes you to gain life it would make sense to have two triggers but since it specifies timing without a source it should just be one
If I had to choose, I'd choose the lifelink changing. It's unintuitive for somebody with a basic to intermediate knowledge of the rules.
The fact that it has a specific rule that grants it this exception is my evidence for that statement.
I agree. If ALL combat damage events were changed to be treated as separate source-to-source interactions by default, then sure, they would be consistent. But that is a much bigger change than simply getting rid of this special rule for "when you gain life". I'm okay with the intuition either way, except that I'm quite used to looking in card text for the distinction between "event" and "event from a source" now, so the cards are ALREADY written around the idea that the default is "one overall event" and that abilities can specify "source-to-source event" when desired. It would be strange to go back on that now, and would require a lot of errata.
And, it's not just that it has a specific rule - it's that when Judge Dave showed the rule on the screen, I immediately said "huh, that's weird, I wonder why they have that rule", and when Dave's answer was "I think it's mostly historical", I thought "okay so they obviously need to just drop that rule" 😑
Since Archangel does trigger specifically off its own lifelink, we might suspect on that card it's by design that EACH source of lifelink should trigger it. So new template: "When you gain life from any source, ..." as an equivalent to the deals-damage-to-a-source trigger condition.
I would intuitively have assumed the Ripjaw Raptor also triggers twice because it was dealt damage by 2 different creatures, similar to how Raptor being dealt damage by two different Lightning Bolts would trigger it twice. That seems like the best way to handle it if you´re going to change it.
I think the final example with the vampire shows how the wording could have been subtly different to make it clearer that multiple triggers could occur: if the text said "Whenever Ripjaw Raptor is dealt damage by A Source..." or "Whenever Ripjaw Raptor is dealt damage by A Creature..."
I'd say the rule should be changed to follow the Ripjaw Raptor example. Since combat damage all takes place simultaneously, it makes sense to me that enrage only triggers once. As there is only one "instant" when the raptor is taking damage even if it's from multiple sources. It should work the same way for lifegain in my opinion; although you may gain life from multiple sources of lifelink, because it's all simultaneous, it should only count as one instance of gaining life.
That vampire reminds me that we need a whole episode to just wayta, prodigy trainer. What is a "cause"?
All of the enraged cards being "whenever a source deals damage to it" instead of "whenever it takes damage" would make more sense flavor wise in mu opinion, and you would get to draw 2 cards
I feel like the lifelink thing should be a single instance, because, well, it's a deliberate, specific, hidden exception, where the words on the card don't actually say what they mean. If they want 'whenever you gain life' to mean 'whenever a source causes you to gain life', then they should have other things, that also don't talk about sources, to trigger multiple times from multiple sources, which would obviously hugely warp the game and obviously is not something they can do.
It might have been instated for backwards-compatibility, but as a player who was not even playing Magic during the time when lifelink was a triggered ability, it feels like a random inexplicable exception to the way that combat damage and its connected effects work in every other case.
Dave thank you for your videos. Your channel should definitely have more followers!
Honestly, when I hit 1000 subs, I was shocked that many people wanted to listen to what I had to say. I'm still not really over that shock.
as a supporting rule, there's also
> 702.15e If multiple sources with lifelink deal damage at the same time, they cause separate life gain events (see rules 119.9-10).
as a Karlov player, I think the status quo is fine. :D
Got it right immediately but had the same "Hmmmm, wait a second" moment when I realized how similar these situations are but how different the outcomes are. I'm not sure if anything needs to be changed, but if forced to pick, I'd nerf lifegain triggers on lifelink, those interactions are already strong enough lol
If it was "Whenever Ripjaw Raptor becomes blocked" it'd be two draws. It became blocked twice but was only dealt damage once. If it was subject to the same as the life gain trigger clarification, it'd be two draws, because it'd be treated as though it said "Whenever a source deals damage to Ripjaw Raptor" and that would be two draws. So I think that's the rule that should be changed, to make it more consistent with the other triggers.
I think it would need to be "Whenever Ripjaw Raptor becomes blocked by a creature" for this to work.
"Whenever Ripjaw Raptor becomes blocked" would be the same as "Whenever Raptor goes from being an unblocked crature to boing a blocked creature" which means it would trigger only once no matter how many creatures blocked it
I would change the Lifelink part of the ruling. It relies on a semantic difference between event and source.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat
I lean towards "Both should trigger twice" but clearly this video has taught me that I understand nothing about Magic's rules, I really felt like I should've gotten this one 😅
I'm with you. Having things happen per source is fine and having things happen at once is fine (my guess was it was all going to be the latter when I started the video), but having life gain work differently from damage reeks of legacy issues (that's “legacy” in the programming sense, not the Magic sense).
Of course, legacy issues are real, so maybe that's fine. Though if they got rid of combat damage on the stack, maybe they can fix this.
I like pronunciation “jit” because of the double consonant, but considering it’s from a more Asian inspired set and art, being a sai, I like “jeetay” as well.
A jitte is actually a distinct weapon from a sai though they are similar. I'm not exactly sure how the difference is classified but I believe jitte generally have a single hook while sai have two prongs on opposite sides.
I have a question.
My opponent plays a grafdigers cage. I ask "It only stops casting and entering from graveyard right?" He says "Yes". In his end step i play a chord of calling and he says that the creature can't enter.
What will be the rulling of a judge.
I had this situation but luckily reminded myself that the creature can't enter. And didn't play the chord
I didn't know the "whenever a player gains life" rule. I'm still a magic padawan I guess.
I'm going to regret asking, but how does the vampire change if the creatures have banding.
The blocking player can choose to have the vampire's damage be assigned to a single blocker. The excess damage is wasted, and the vampire only kills one blocker. It gets one +1/+1 counter and the jitte gets two charge counters.
Both things seems reasonable, specially considering the flavor part of "enrage" mechanic. They could introduce different levels of rage but that would be different mechanic then. I think it kinda gets weird (at least from "common sense" view) when we introduce trample to the lifelinker. I would expect that to cause the Angel to trigger twice since you need to do damage to two objects.
I would have gotten all of these wrong
I have a question I just thought of, just in case this scenario should ever occur:
Let's say Amy casts Emrakul, the World Anew, taking control of all of Nick's creatures. Then, on Nick's next turn, he plays Metamorphic Alteration on any of those creatures, turning it into a copy of Emrakul, the World Anew. This will cause there to temporarily be two Emrakuls on Amy's field at once. So, the Legend rule should cause one of them to be sent to the graveyard. However, Emrakul, the World Anew has protection from permanents that were cast that turn, which should cause the Metamorphic Alteration to immedately fall off, and then that creature will no longer be a copy of Emrakul.
Does the Legend rule still cause one of the Emrakuls to be sent to the graveyard (and subsequently force Amy to sacrifice all of her creatures)? I'm thinking this'll still happen, due to both state-based actions occurring simultaneously, but I'd like to have full confirmation on this.
Relevant rule:
704.3. Whenever a player would get priority [...], the game checks for any of the listed conditions for state-based actions, then performs all applicable state-based actions
simultaneously as a single event. [...]
So in this situation, when the SBAs are checked, the game will see that Amy controls two creatures with the name Emrakul, the World Anew and that Metamorphic Alteration is an Aura attached to an illegal object. Next the game will instruct Amy to choose one of the two Emrakuls. The other will be put in its owners graveyard and simultaneously Metamorphic Alteration will be put in Nicks graveyard
@@feliksporeba5851
Yep, that's what I thought. Thanks.
(So, maybe I should be ready to use a deck containing Metamorphic Alteration if I think I'm going up against an opponent who uses Emrakul, the World Anew. :P)
@@SomeGuy712x Just remember that this won't give you back your creatures or prevent them from being stolen. It will just return them to your graveyard by Emrakuls LTB trigger
@@feliksporeba5851
Oh, I know. But, I'd much rather have a board wipe than let the opponent keep my army.
Why can't they template "whenever you gain life" as "whenever you gain life from a source" and avoid the special rule?
As written on the card, the life gain rule doesn't make sense
Honestly, I feel like this is the cleanest solution. Maybe the prospect of needing to errata all the old cards to maintain the previous functionality is what's holding this one back. It's actually not that many cards, though
@@JudgingFtW Is there not also some difficulty caused by life gain being less rigorously sourced than damage? I sent in a question about this, but things like (and maybe it's just this) Words of Worship replacing your draw step don't (in my limited understanding) have a 'source' object that the life gain can point to.
Personally, id prefer if only 2 triggers from archangel occured. its just the most intuitive conclusion based on knowing damage happens at the same time
I honestly would have thought both triggered twice, because I consider each source separately. It is annoying that they are different and I think Wizards should change that
You mispronounced "Jitte". The S is silent.
If I have zur, eternal schemer, assault suit and lunar force on the battlefield, I equip assault suit on lunar force, what happens, do I counter every opponents spells because lunar force won’t be sacrificed ? Thanks in advance
TLDR: I works as you think it does.
Whenever an opponent casts a spell Lunar Forces' ability will trigger and when it resolves it tries to [sacrifice Lunar Force and counter that spell] since Assault Suits ability does't allow the first part to be executed the ability will do only as much as it can, so [counter that spell]. The second part of the effect doesn't depend on the first actually occuring. For this combo to not work, Lunar Force's ability would need to be formated something like:
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, sacrifice Lunar Force. If you do, counter that spell.
Also remember not to pass the Force to the next player with Suits upkeep trigger. All your spells would be countered then
the raptor should be drawing 2 cards because 2 creatures damaged it,.. that is what i thought,. with regards to the Jitte, does that mean a double strike trample creature could deal damage with the initial strike, the trample from that initail strike, and then again with the double strike putting 6 counters on the Jitte?
It only deals damage twice though, that damage just hit 4 things. So it would gain 4 counters
@@fhortedakwhil2904 i was under the impression it dealt damage to the creature blocking it, and then trample damage to the player, then double strike damage, creatures that have 'when damage a player' trigger effect do trigger when the trample,.. so i thought it was 3 damage instances.
@@Magdavianyou have it slightly backwards. It was the vampire, not the jitte, that triggered twice from trampling, and it’s because the vampire triggers off dealing combat damage “to a creature,” and it dealt combat damage to two creatures. Jitte doesn’t have any such specifications, so it can trigger off combat damage a maximum of once per step of damage calculation (in the case of double strike, first strike damage + normal damage for two total triggers, even with trample).
I feel like ripjaw raptor should draw you two cards in that case, since it was dealt damage from two different things
Doesn't matter. It was only dealt damage once.
What about a rakdos charm and pariah on the raptor?
The same situation. Rakdos Charm causes all the creatures to deal damage to Raptor (not you thanks to Pariahs ability) simultaneously. It's controller will only get one trigger. Damage dealt by spells is considered separate events mostly only when instructions to deal that damage are separate sentences in the spells text
I think ripjaw raptor should be dealt damage twice and give two cards.
This hurt my head I mean you hurt my head... I swear people and magic conjure up problems and are so delusional they have no grounding of common Sense nor act like they've played any other game.😢