Nice save, man, something is not right with that engine acting like that. The only issue I see from your end is you moved that throttle very quickly from closed to full throttle, like bam, I checked out in a Cirrus turbo, no prop lever, but pretty much the same setup, and the mantra was smooth, 3 to 4 second move from idle to full, no exceptions, and very slow for any changes to allow the system to keep up. Barring system issues, that was probably the problem. I'm thinking what happened is that by moving the throttle to full quickly the turbos had no time to spool up, so your manifold pressure dropped. Meanwhile the fuel controller sees full throttle and starts on it's way to dumping 30 or 40 or whatever it is gallons per hour into an engine that has no manifold pressure, which means no air flowing through it, flooding it out. You can confirm the engine had stopped running by the egts, which were so low they weren't registering on the graphs, plus the rpms dropped to below 500 rpm. Fortunately your touchdown technique is great, you kept the nosewheel off the ground , no porpoise, so you didn't need the go around. Chopping the throttle was good at that point too, because had that engine roared to full power the turn to the left would have come quickly. Great video, I'm thinking smooth on the throttle application will solve the stall problem and make your engine last a lot longer. Thanks for sharing. Paul PS, if you look at 19:08 you see a puff of smoke come out, then around 19:14 to 19:17 a whole bunch of puffs of smoke as the engine catches again and the rpms come back from 300 to 1400, definitely looks like it flooded out and was stalled. Take care.
Can you buy a piston Malibu with a FADEC engine? Figuring out how to baby the turbos is a good problem for a computer to solve, not a pilot trying to make aeronautical decisions.
@@MalibuFlyer Way too rich for 4700 ft altitude. Full rich is for closer to sea level. you should have had the mixture about 25-30% lean at 4700 feet field elevation. Literally, there is so much gas in the mixture is ca barely ignite, and produces no power. The equivalent of a loaded up carburetor when you mash the throttle on an older four barrel when the choke is on. You lean to elevation. Even on landing.
I enjoy your videos and compliment you for sharing the good and “bad”. Many pilots would keep this to themselves, where you decide to share so others can learn. I have flown for 33 years and most of my hours are the past 5 years (I own a DA 40 and a Grumman Tiger). I watch videos like yours for the escape/entertainment, but also for education as I always feel the more I absorb can potentially be drawn on if I ever have a situation that demands my attention. And as we all know, no two flights are alike. Thank you again! Keep it up and safe travels!
Love the vids, my sister lives down the street from FFZ and I always hope to see you above. I am a new pilot, under 70 hours, so I am NOT an expert. I am somewhat knowledgeable on combustion engines, and I think boost, or lack there of, may have contributed to the engine flood. I see the situation as follows: High DA + low manifold pressure + immediate wide open throttle + mixture full rich = engine "bog." There just wasn't any time to let the boost build as you would normally advance the throttle gradually. I have no clue what could've been done differently. You handled it like a champ and I hope to one day even have the skill to apply the knowledge I am gaining from you.
Being based at a high altitude New Mexico airport, combined with our gusty winds, I agree with most that think the mixture was too rich. A low RPM, high manifold situation on the runway is the sign of an engine about to die, in this case from being flooded. Your move to reduce the mixture saved you. No flaps on a gusty day is a risky move in my opinion. It's better to land with partial flaps at a slightly slower speed and then raise them immediately after landing to dump lift. (even though some say not to touch configuration on the runway). It's been a challenge in NM this spring... unreal winds. My experiences from 20 years of flying from the up high airports. Love your videos, keep up the good work, and keep flying safe!
Full flaps on all landings period. That was drilled into our heads and was taught by my chief pilot in the late 70s at Dupage Aviation just west of Chicago. Spencer was a WWII P-51 fighter pilot. He was also an FAA designated flight examiner. His point is that the touchdown speed would have been slower, aircraft stability would have been better and the procedure is consistent. Also, leave the flaps down until you turn off the runway. The old argument that raising the flaps after touchdown puts more weight on the wheels is illogical and wrong. Once the plane is stalled on the runway, the wings are no longer producing lift and all the weight is already on the wheels. The flaps are now being used for pure drag and will slow the airplane down more efficiently. Also, leaving the flaps down until after you turn off the runway will minimize the risk of doing something stupid, like raising the gear instead of the flaps. Just watch the airliners, they leave full flaps down until they turn off as well.
daffidavit I’m sure your instructor was very good, and had a lot of great techniques, but this is wrong if you think full flaps for every landing..there are times when less than full flaps is appropriate. Also the wing isn’t stalled while rolling out on landing. The critical angle of attack isn’t exceeded, so it isn’t stalled. Airliners have lift dumping devices, so they get full weight upon touchdown. While it is good practice to not reconfigure the plane while rolling, there are times when you may need to. Wings with flaps are supporting some weight. Even stalled wings are supporting some weight. You retract flaps, you’ll get more weight on wheels. Yes you lose some aerodynamic braking, but what you gain in wheel braking ability from full weight is more significant. You just need to be careful that you don’t lose directional control or activate gear instead of flaps. Best to reconfigure when stopped if needed, but if proficient, comfortable and prepared, you can retract flaps on the rollout. It’s not good to try to apply airliner mentality to general aviation all the time, they are very different and need to be flown differently.
@@thomasaltruda I used to believe that too. But after 50 years of flying, I've tested both methods and find that my WWII mentor had taught me something that he and others like him knew better. I find that using full flaps in all situations works better than arbitrarily selecting a setting that "feels good" at the moment. But thanks for your comment, it is well argued and many will agree with you. BTW, the wing is stalled while it's rolling slowing down the runway. The critical angle of attack was reached when the wing came to a full stall at touchdown. After that point there is no longer an "angle of attack" because the wing has reached the "burble point". You can also argue that the wing isn't stalled while taxing either because the critical angle of attack hasn't been exceeded but that argument won't get you too far...
daffidavit I was made to use 90kias(172) on approach in instrument training by my CFIIs and I hated it. I fly the ILS much faster now on my own. Similarly, I never use full flaps on landing unless I’m going into a really short field. I like the control authority I have with more speed. I’ve been told both ways about raising or leaving flaps in after touchdown. Me and a bunch of guys kicked it around one rainy day and decided it doesn’t really matter. You’re either on the ground or you’re not. Unless there’s standing water and then raising the flaps could help settle the wheels down more. The wing is always producing lift if there’s a breath of wind over it. We lost two planes one afternoon to wind after lightning struck the tie down cable and broke it where those two were tied to it
@@jakeski3142 When a wing is undergoing a stall there are a lot of "breaths" of air going over it, but the airflow is not laminar, it's turbulent. Once stalled any residual lift is overcome by weight.
As a Turbo P210 driver from southern Colorado I have a lot of high winds and high density altitude. My best comment is to be careful of full rich mixture. I always leave mixture out some because a full power throttle will overwhelm the engine with fuel. There is plenty of time to bring up the mixture after a go around maneuver with increased power. My last experience was at Del Norte Colorado in the afternoon with gusty winds and wind shear on final at about 75 feet above ground. Partial flaps and increased power arrested the shear and large wing dip. Still made the runway but it was exciting, glad the engine did not flood and quit. You make great videos keep it up.
Good points. I flew at Alamosa, CO (7500 MSL) for 4 years back in the early 60's at Silver State Aviation (Gaines Schultz proprietor) during college and we never set the mixture in any of their airplanes at full rich on landing. Leaned them out by ear on run up prior to take-off.
Thanks for sharing. Still unable to fly due to social distancing, but your clear and concise videos make for some valuable armchair flying. Nice reward after completing a few Sporty’s lessons.
That's the only time I've watched your videos and was grateful I wasn't there...difficult conditions, well managed and appreciate the analysis and split screen too!
Looks like the issue started with your GUMPS check. At that density altitude, mixture does not go full rich. Lean for best power as you would for takeoff. Old flat land habits are hard to break. Happy the bounce wasn't any higher and go around was the right call.
As opposed to normally aspirated engines... Turbocharged engines are always at or below sea level below pressure when below critical altitude. Therefore full rich is needed, especially if a go around is required. Too lean and it will only take seconds to burn a piston.
@@justusetpecator Except in this case 6.9 manifold pressure is so low you might see that idling at Aspen. As he opened the throttle it came up to 25 inches. Field elevation would be about 25 inches. 25 inches is less than sea level 30 inches so the engine is acting normally aspirated at that point and would need to be leaned. If the turbo was spun up it should have been closer to 30 inches. While habit is mixture rich, habit is not right in all cases. If the mixture came in with the throttle the engine should have responded. Or a slower application of throttle allowing the turbo to spin up, assuming the 6.9 didn't already have the engine flooded. The gust might not have cooperated anyway or to put it another way lasted long enough for the engine to produce enough power to start a go around before throwing you back on the ground. My thought might be deploy spoilers as soon as the mains are on the ground so a gust doesn't pop you back in the air.
@@garycharpenter543 ... Any idea what the fuel flow was? Rich mixture is recommended by Piper for landing and go around. Especially go around, unless you want to burn a hole in the piston. At WOT full rich is a must. Popping spoilers is an interesting idea. Might even try it but I doubt if this procedure would be recommended by Piper or the FAA. So best to stay within normal procedures unless the checklist calls for something different. I mostly fly turbine engines now, except when instructing. Too bad turbines are so expensive it would be nice to dump those pistons. Thank you for the input Gary.
Full rich, DA was 5900', you pushed the throttle in fast and instantly flooded it. Leaning solved the problem but too late. 5900' DA also works for the engine as well as the wing. Next time, mixture for best power, smoother on the throttle. If the gear touches, and you maintain flying speed and accel, you'll get out of there. BTW, landing no flaps adds quite a bit of energy where you don't need it. This was not an X-wind situation, wind right down the nose. Just land it like a calm day, with flaps, and once down, get those flaps off. CFI - Kodiak AK.
Nice to see members of the Family of God back on the air. Been missing you. Very professional flying. I know now you could fly through any storm. Blessings
Nice save, and we have all had worse landings! When the power is at idle, there is very little mass airflow to spin the turbos. Also most modern turbo CMI engines are set up with a full throttle enrichment circuit, so if you firewall it, with the turbos not doing much at the high DA, then it probably was flooded. My preference in those conditions is a full flap landing. I’m familiar with the sight picture and airspeeds, just carry half the gust factor and obviously a bunch more power. Then, when the mains are down, flaps up and speed brakes extended. Really sticks the plane to the runway. Works safely in long body mooney as its hard to confuse gear and flaps. Thanks for all the content. I enjoy your channel.
And again you proved your strong personality by showing this little mishap. Landing is the most difficult part of the flight when conditions are less than great. As you will probably be able to use the plane again it was by definition a great landing ;-) Keep it up.
Dude, watching your instincts there when the plane lifted, all I had to say was "that guy is a great pilot". The throttle not responding to you there is nothing other than freaky, but your flight skills kept you from over-anticipating that full-power state (which didn't come) which perhaps could have caused an even more dramatic stall which could have seriously hurt y'all. Really, well done.
I did my private training in Clayton, NM and Dalhart, TX... You just brought back a lot of memories... Like my first cross country solo into Dalhart on a day like that... 😳
Better to be lucky than good any day of the week. Reminds me of the time I landed on a flat tire and just like you here, being precise staying on center and flying it right to the ground saves the day. I enjoy your videos and I'm glad you guys got away without harm. Thanks for sharing a great play by play
Wow! I felt like I was bumping along right with you. Exceptional landing considering the conditions. Thankful you and your plan are ok! Thanks for explaining things to us. Love your videos!
On your rollout on landing, you reduced the mixture and the engine came back alive. Definitely wasn’t the DA that ‘enriched the mixture’, it was at full rich. Strong work, great video!
a lot of incredible readings on the JPI gauge after touchdown happening. Makes me wonder how they are transducing those values to begin with. I doubt the rpm ever really reached 230, and the MP was way below one atmosphere, indicating a vacuum - what was it 6.5 psi at one point?
One of the reasons I rarely go full rich on my Mooney, even on cold days. I have a general idea on best power mixture setting and set accordingly. Awesome video and great job getting it on the ground safely!
Don't see alot of the mainline guys show big bumbs. I know they happen but they don't show them. Thanks. Huge winds and a butt pucker landing handled perfectly!!! Thanks guys!!! Have seen a couple of your vids in the past. Get them out! We're watching!!! 👍👍👍
I remember Santa Rosa 40 years ago when i was in my 20's ...4 POB in a Grumman Tiger, full fuel and temperatures in the 80's. At that time you had to call the Highway Patrol to get fuel, he was the guy running the pumps back then. I still remember that take off and the stall warning going off, what a learning experience that was. That's when i realized density altitude was really a thing. LOL
Thanks for sharing your flight with us. Quite a curve ball right at the end. Nice cool response though. You have an excellent cool-headed first officer there I see as well! :)
Nice job! My wife's sister lives in Dalhart, hoping you were landing there. Nice little terminal. I flew from Chicago and picked my wife up there after she watched her sister after surgery. It was really windy that day and 105 at 5pm!
Ah yes. Santa Rosa. Had to divert there during my return to KFFZ from KPHN. Not a whole lot there. Thank goodness for that little FBO. Although the walk to the truck stop isn’t too bad.
Wow, you guys live an exciting life. Your videos are amazing and I guess if you keep this up, Spielberg will be looking for a new job. Thank you for sharing this with us all and please stay safe and Covid free in the future. All the Best for St Patrick's day from the UK 🇬🇧
I love seeing when things go wrong... it's great for setting expectations for hopeful future pilots. I'd seen all your videos now, and would love to see some on your flying background and more about you, your work, and why you fly. Thanks!
A bit of a scary landing. Glad it came out ok in the end and both of you made it safely. Smart move to wait it out till better winds. Saw that Katey got her license in record time. Bet you are both proud parents. Take care - God Bless and be safe. 'Spin'
Watching this, when you ran your GUMPS check and pushed the mixture rich that set off an alarm bell for me with the high density altitude. I’m not familiar with the Malibu and what’s normal for that engine but in the deep recesses of my mind and old mountain flying training full rich and high da’s aren’t friends. Glad you had the runway left to get her down and stopped and bonus points for waiting it out. Thanks for posting this. A learning experience for all.
Scary stuff. This could’ve ended a lot worse but thankfully it didn’t. Great job being a proactive pilot and not getting frazzled. Like everyone else said, it was your mixture that did that. I’m based out of APA (Field Elevation 5,800ft), we’ve had multiple incidents where the mixture is brought to full rich prior to takeoff, and the airplane typically won’t climb out as usual. I had an instructor who was on one of these incidents in a multi engine plane (Seminole). Next time lean for best power and you should be fine. I also agree with the fact that the throttle was applied too abruptly, the turbocharger has no time to suck in the air it needed, but also probably wouldn’t have worked because of the engine being flooded
Good landing considering the conditions. I was doing a low approach in COS and when I went full throttle the engine "hickuped". I had a 737 coming up behind me that is why I was given a low approach. I was setup for landing about 10 feet up and quickly decided to put it on the ground instead of continuing the low approach. I keyed the mic and said "66N I just lost my engine". I was unable to clear the active runway and the 737 had to do a go-around. In order to clear the runway I had to do a 135 degree turn. I did not have the momentum because I had to brake to keep from running off pavement. Turns out I had flooded the engine when I went full throttle. I got the engine restarted and cleared runway with no further issues. I no longer "slam" the throttle in. I gently go to full power. Excellent video!
Turbo lag... High DA, loads of fuel being dumped into the combustion chambers in a short enough period of time to cool things too much... I'm nowhere close to being the pilot you are but I know engines from a misspent youth building drag cars. A little slower on pushing the throttles up, let the turbo catch up... you're reaction to what was actually a forced landing was super understated... great recovery and very instructive video. Thank you for taking the time to post it.
It was kind of cool hearing you check in with mizzou approach few days ago. Hope your time in Missouri was good. My wife and I were in our 182 en route to KC area. Safe travels and God bless!
Good to hear from you and thanks for saying "hello". We just returned yesterday and had a great time in Branson and NW Arkansas. God bless you and your family as well!
Malibu Flyer we frequent Branson and Northwest Arkansas. If you are ever back in the area my buddy is the FBO at KMAW. Cheap fuel, long runways, old army air base, and hanger space if needed. Thanks for the reply.
I have flown into Dalhart and it's always windy there as well as NE New Mexico. Lots of crabbing going on. Actually did blow off the run flying It down at Dalhartand was able to correct before the wheels touched. Enjoy your airtime
Howdy, I'm thinking about buying my first airplane next Spring/Summer '2021; and have narrowed it down to the PA32 vs PA46. I'm a member of the Piper's Owners Society (and planning to join the MPOPA (but haven't yet). Low time VFR only pilot (but plan to get IFR next year) in the Seattle area. I like the PA46 but don't want to buy 'too much plane', the PA32 seems like a better choice as a starter, but I also don't want to have to upgrade after a year or two lol :) Just curious if you could address owning the PA46, cost of ownership / operation, REAL WORLD runway lengths, etc. Also I like the split doors of the PA32 (loading bikes and gear). How hard / easy is it to load the PA46, climb over the seats to the front, remove the rear seats, etc. Thanks in advance. Would LOVE a RUclips to cover this lol, or just a follow up message or email.
I thought I would be less addicted to your videos when I finally own my own 310P but I guess that therapy went wrong. Ok, maybe it is because I sent it right into the avionics shop to get an upgrade myself. And now I am sitting here for 2 months (finger crossed) and have nothing to do :) I have no idea how nice the result will look. Yours is hard to beat. On the other hand I opted for the GFC600 and a GI275 instead of the Mid Continent Standby Instrument. I am sooo exited to see her finished :)
..thanks for sharing Kory..very scary..never liked high winds or difficult conditions on approach..usually stop in Santa Rosa when driving back and forth on I-40 to California... the elevations there change dramatically...
Thanks for sharing. I don't know anything about Malibus, but when I was watching the video, I wondered if mixture full-rich was still valid at 5900ft and for a split second I flashed the connection that perhaps the video's title had to do with that small detail. Glad you are safe!
this. here in Colorado where high DA is ubiquitous , a full rich mixture on gumps is almost never used. do that at leadville and you'll be lucky to survive.
That looked pretty dicy on the landing. It’s pretty scary when you add power to do a go around and you get nothing, lose 20 mph wind speed and drop back onto the runway(nice recovery by the way) after hearing the stall warning. I’d say you got lucky you landed safely. Could have all gone bad pretty quickly. Thanks for sharing the experience.
Piper Malibu’s are turbocharged. The turbo charger makes sea level air at full power therefore you need all fuel available in order to avoid detonation ( back fire ). Going full rich at high density altitude for go around is standard procedure and necessary. Doing it rapidly after a long low power descent has caused mine to balk. Landing with a little throttle in seems to help. ( I fly a turbocharged Mooney out of Denver)
Choosing to land without flaps was a major contributor to your problems with that landing. If you had used flaps, you would have had more drag and the airplane would have settled faster with the throttle closed at touchdown and most likely stayed down. From 1,500 lbs gross weight to 875,000 lbs gross weight I have always been trained and trained other to use flaps to land unless they're busted. In all kinds of general aviation and airline operations that has proven to be the right choice. In thousands of hours of instructing I have never advocated landing without flaps EXCEPT to practice for the time the flaps fail. The drag on that airplane, clean, in ground effect is soooo low it could easily fly hundreds of feet in ground effect with little or no power with just a few knots extra airspeed and no flaps. That's a bad thing when there's a gusty crosswind. You showed that very well. The most important function of flaps on a light airplane: increased drag. Better lift at low airspeeds and lower stall speeds are of secondary importance. But more lift lower, stall speeds and more drag are ALL very useful for any landing. I can't think of an advantage to having no flaps when dealing with gusts. No flaps means you have to carry more airspeed to the runway and have less drag to get rid of that extra airspeed. The safety of flying in gusts is not enhanced by failing to use flaps. In high wing loaded, heavy airplanes we use flaps and add half the headwind component and all of the gust factor (difference between steady wind component and the gust) to the normal no-wind landing speed. That much extra approach speed would be way overkill in a light airplane ( much lower inertia and lower wing loading) but some extra speed gives protection against gusts and using flaps provides enough drag to easily bleed off airspeed crossing the threshold and in the flare so as to keep the airplane on the ground at touchdown. When you're touching down high airspeed is not your friend. The other problem with not using flaps is that we are generally not used to the much higher pitch attitude at touchdown. If we keep the same landing attitude we use with flaps when not using flaps, we are very likely never going to get rid of airspeed during the flare. So if you don't regularly practice no-flap landings and the pitch attitude higher pitch attitude required you are putting yourself in unfamiliar territory at a time when you need your attention to keep the airplane straight and in the center of the runway. Your nose wheel was only about 8" above the pavement at the first touchdown. In that airplane, landing without flaps, the nose should have obscured the runway at touchdown. If you don't like to land with that pitch attitude - use flaps. When carrying extra airspeed due to winds it is good practice to bleed off that speed crossing threshold to keep floating to a minimum. Floating only prolongs the time you have to work to keep the airplane under control. Yep, high density altitude makes for a rich mixture. Very often it's necessary to lean for takeoff at high density altitudes. It's a practice that could destroy an engine at sea level but many engines will sputter and cough through the take off roll, loosing a lot of power if they weren't properly leaned for the density altitude. I agree with the comment that a slower, smoother application of power might have gotten a better response from the engine. It's certainly better for the engine. The drag caused by flaps would have required more power during the approach and therefore engine cooling would have been less of a factor. While we're on the subject of density altitude, high DA will increase the landing roll significantly. High DA and a no flap landing makes for a really long roll. Obviously runway length was sufficient in this case, but high DA and no flap landings should be carefully considered. And no flap landings on wet runways invites hydroplaning. Light airplanes have low tire pressure and therefore hydroplane at quite low speeds. Just not a lot of positives for no flap landings, except they're fun when conditions are acceptable for them.
Well one observation. I know it was gusty and flaps should be at minimum extension but no flaps is where your trouble began. You touched down way too fast and the aircraft because of the airspeed wanted to still fly and when the gust came it lifted you up with no problem. You are lucky that the lift was not too much because the landing would not have been pretty. Thank you for sharing though. It was very cool.
It appears to be just the right combination of variables. Procedure calls for full rich regardless of DA. Two years ago I landed full rich at 10,800' DA and did a go-around due to sudden gusts with no issues at all. Conversely, I have forgotten to go full rich at high elevations and had the engine sputter as I was rolling out due to fuel starvation. This was a weird one for sure!
When he said gusting at 51... I choked on my pizza a bit. I would be like “let’s land now, let’s pull a Sully,” because hearing that right now would be an emergency in my mind haha. I would keep a dead goose in the cockpit just in case.
Have a neighbor going yesterday from HUT to AEG. Due to winds (aloft and at AEG), he wisely decided to sit things out until Wednesday ((a wee bit lower wing load than what you have)) Yeah, in this country, you NEVER operate with the Mixture firewalled. It may go up there briefly during the start sequence, but thereafter is never more than 3/4 the way to full rich. We had a guy that landed at SAF during the AOPA Fly In 2 summers ago that made the mistake of landing with the mixture firewalled and his engine QUIT before he finished rolling out (to the guffaws of locals watching his arrival)
Love your pronunciation of Dalhart (dullhart). Not sure if that is a Freudian slip but if so it"s appropriate (just kidding Dalhart people). It's actually pronounced like the dal in Dallas. Great video! Stay safe.
Love your airplane and all of your videos. Did you really put those window shades on your glare shield blocking your front windscreen? I get flying at the flight levels and on a IFR clearance, but you are still ultimately responsible for traffic management when in VMC even though you have ATC and ADSB IN in the cockpit.
That was a tough one. I'd say you did everything you could, given your limited options due to the low MP and then subsequent high MP and low RPMs! A nasty combination when you need a go around, but thankfully a safe, if forced, landing.
Great Job staying on top of things. At least that happening prevented you from having to do a go-around. Things happen for a reason. God is Good. A safe landing is a good landing. God Bless!
Very nicely done. I know how much work it is to assemble and edit this footage. Thanks for posting! Excellent CRM at the end, asking your FO to call your speeds.
Very nice, I was in Santa Rosa before the crazy junk started happening, though I was 80 feet under water at that point and not in the air, LOL. Blue Hole is very interesting and would be fun to hit when it's really hot out. I wish I could fly there though rather than drive, it's something I have always wanted to learn how to do and wanted to be able to take my wife for a trip at some point. Sadly she passed away last year before I could take a single lesson.
My time in a PA28RT-201T taught to keep the turbo spooled up when landing otherwise you can't get rapid power response. Also, I have to ask why you thought your air time was so precious that you disregarded the pattern and chose a long straight-in at an uncontrolled field. A little time in the pattern may have helped your throttle management in addition to improving visual traffic, "see and be seen," recognition.
Remember that METAR, TAF, and Winds Aloft are reported in degrees TRUE. Winds over the ASOS/ATIS/etc are reported magnetic. So, because magnetic variation is 9 degrees east there at KDHT, that means the wind was from ~231 degrees magnetic. Runway 21 is 216 degrees magnetic. So, now you're only down to a 15-degree off-center difference instead of 30-degrees. But of course, when the wind is that strong, the direction can sometimes be a little unpredictable
Never seen that before.. that's scary stuff. Great job landing rubber side down with a major "what the heck" moment at *the worst* possible moment. I agree with other comments with DA + full rich, in combination with sudden full throttle, causing the flood. Next chance you get, you should pull the spark plugs and check for fouling. That there is one of those "Teachable Moments". You might want to forward this vid to Piper and ask for their input. Piper has some really great people, and they will have an answer, and maybe even a recommendation.
Nice video! I have 0 hours on a PA46, but the first thought that came to my mind during y our GUMPS check was "why mixture full at 5000 ft elevation?" that may have contributed to the engine bogged down when you applied full throttle. Again, I'm no expert.
@@MalibuFlyer Wrong... mixture is still going to need to be back on a turbocharged engine. Full rich is for sea level, maybe up to 1500 MSL. Above that, you should lean for cruise, then, coming in to land, just richen it up to allow EGT to come down a bit. Your best performance will always come from a properly leaned engine, whether turbocharged or naturally aspirated.
@@WilliamTeasdale You're incorrect. A turbocharger produces sea level pressure up to it's critical altitude. Takeoff, climb, and short final call for full rich.
Malibu Flyer 43 years of experience tells me otherwise. Bush flying in both turbocharged and naturally aspirated engined aircraft. Your airplane... do what you want. But it almost bit you on this one.
I agree with Bill. We fly a Piper Turbo Lance and we landed in Utah with 9,500ft. density altitude two months ago and we had to lean way back to maintain full power on approach, we had full mixture per our POH and the engine almost quit on final and put us into the side of a mountain. That's why the new checklists state "lean for best power". Experience is not kind, she gives you the test first and the lesson after.
Good save you had me fooled with “forced landing” to me that means you were off airport. Good save again!! Hopefully your door didn’t get tweaked in the wind
Most pilots are fearful of winds above 15 knots. X-winds above 10 knots even more so. So in that respect I applaud you, however, once you get above 30 knots I would seriously reconsider flying a small GA aircraft in these conditions. Even if the wind is directly down the runway the hidden danger is windshear and you probably do not have enough power to extract yourself from a situation like that on final approach or takeoff climb. Flying a large twin turbo-prop I would decline flights when winds got up above 35kts, even now flying a small heavy wing loaded jet I tap out at 35 knots. Could I do it? sure. Is the risk worth the reward? Nope. You mitigate/eliminate risk first and foremost with the decisions you make. Glad you were able to keep filling the experience bucket without draining the luck bucket. Blue skies.
@@kellyhouseholder6737 No, the controller you're seeing is a Garmin GCU 485. It's simply a remote controller for the G500TXi. I can set baro, vertical speed, altitude preselect, etc using the knobs instead of the touchscreen on the G500.
I’m a student pilot (pre-solo) and no mechanic, so I’m wondering if some of the newer engines would help in this situation. The consensus here seems to be that rich mixture caused the engine to bog/flood. I don’t have a mixture knob in my 21 year old car, so would a full FADEC engine avoid this using electronic fuel injection and a computer + a “map” to handle mixture on behalf of the pilot? One of my instructors is OLD SCHOOL and doesn’t trust anything with a single circuit, but I think in this case the ECU on my car has proven very reliable and I’d rather unburden myself with fuel mixture if possible to do so safely. Thoughts?
This is an ancient ancient ancient debate. The "keep it simple, less to go wrong" versus the "new tech is reliable now, it can help" The Lycoming engine is about as medieval as it gets, but it is a KNOWN medieval, it's very well understood what the failure modes are on these engines. The trouble in this vid was a pilot error, not taking DA into account, not an engine problem.
Troy Bradley ... There is an understandable lack of knowledge about the operation of turbocharged engines. Full rich is proper procedure. The only thing I would have changed was full flaps instead no flaps. (different subject) At the point where he was gusted back into the air full power was applied, it does take a moment for the fuel controller to respond and the engine takes a moment to spin up. As the gust went away what power he did have gave him the ability to execute a controlled landing. I do not see an engine issue or a procedure issue. It simply was challenging conditions. The average pilot rarely sees those conditions. For southwest flyers, winds gusting 30 to 50 not so uncommon. Good video, lots to learn and discuss.
Eric Jon Isn’t there a full FADEC turbo engine available? Wouldn’t the computer be able to react faster than any pilot? I’m not lazy, and I want to be the best, safest pilot I can be. But at the same time I don’t want a lack of encyclopedic knowledge and instant recall of the most obscure details to spell disaster for my passengers and myself. I see technology as a way to mitigate pilot workload in just this type of situation, but only if it is reliable. Thanks for the reply. I’m glad the “pilot error” chorus isn’t unanimous.
@@autophile525i - FADEC is not typically needed on a turbocharged reciprocating engines. Unless you are attempting to run the engine as efficiently as possible. There are efficiency advantages to an electronically control engine but in this situation it would not have helped much, some maybe, but not enough to really make a difference. Pilots reaction was spot on, gusted off the runway, full power go around. Gust goes away, airspeed drops instantaneously while the engine is coming up to full power, the airplane settles back down to the runway. So to be the safest pilot you can be, study then train and practice continuously. When it comes to difficult conditions have a qualified instructor take you out and let you train in difficult conditions. (provided the conditions are within the limits of the airplane and the instructor) Technique varies between pilots. Even though technique varies good pilots will follow proper procedures and safe practices. If you do that you will have very few flights where you say I'm never doing that again.
Eric Jon Sound advice, I’m sure! My Old School instructor would be good for that kind of practice. He learned crosswind takeoff and landing in the 70s. On a runway that cut through a pond and an orchard! Thank you for the benefit of your experience.
The issue with your power coming up was not a flooded engine. It was a too rapid advance of the throttle. Watch at 17:59 as you advance the throttle, it is fully up by 18:00, much too fast. On a big bore Conti, especially a turbo charged one, it should take between 4 and 6 seconds to go from idle to full throttle. It is a deliberate movement not a shove. I know this can be hard when you've got lizard brain during a go-around, but with practice you can get the cadence right. Of note is the fact that you don't need full smash right away for a go-around. You're at 90 knots and already airborne. All you need is enough to keep you airborne in ground effect while the turbo spools. 15" - 20" of manifold should be plenty. For me the steps for a go around are, handful of power to stop the descent, mixture set for climb out, then deliberately advance the throttle to full.
@@MalibuFlyer As others have said this was an issue of density altitude and mixture control.. I also agree with others that noted that partial flaps should have been used. I don't know where the switch is for your speed brakes. Mine is on my yoke. In conditions such as this as soon as my mains touch, I flip the speed brakes on. During taxiing in high gusty winds I leave the speed brakes deployed till I get to my hangar. They are great for killing lift and keeping the wind from lifting a wing during taxi. Nice job!! Enjoyed the video
Nice save, man, something is not right with that engine acting like that. The only issue I see from your end is you moved that throttle very quickly from closed to full throttle, like bam, I checked out in a Cirrus turbo, no prop lever, but pretty much the same setup, and the mantra was smooth, 3 to 4 second move from idle to full, no exceptions, and very slow for any changes to allow the system to keep up. Barring system issues, that was probably the problem.
I'm thinking what happened is that by moving the throttle to full quickly the turbos had no time to spool up, so your manifold pressure dropped. Meanwhile the fuel controller sees full throttle and starts on it's way to dumping 30 or 40 or whatever it is gallons per hour into an engine that has no manifold pressure, which means no air flowing through it, flooding it out. You can confirm the engine had stopped running by the egts, which were so low they weren't registering on the graphs, plus the rpms dropped to below 500 rpm. Fortunately your touchdown technique is great, you kept the nosewheel off the ground , no porpoise, so you didn't need the go around. Chopping the throttle was good at that point too, because had that engine roared to full power the turn to the left would have come quickly. Great video, I'm thinking smooth on the throttle application will solve the stall problem and make your engine last a lot longer. Thanks for sharing.
Paul
PS, if you look at 19:08 you see a puff of smoke come out, then around 19:14 to 19:17 a whole bunch of puffs of smoke as the engine catches again and the rpms come back from 300 to 1400, definitely looks like it flooded out and was stalled. Take care.
This is excellent feedback and as far as I can tell, you've nailed the reason why this happened. Thank you.
Looks sporty!! Lol
Can you buy a piston Malibu with a FADEC engine? Figuring out how to baby the turbos is a good problem for a computer to solve, not a pilot trying to make aeronautical decisions.
Paul_Flies nailed it. You would want to get your Fuel Controller Unit checked out.
@@MalibuFlyer Way too rich for 4700 ft altitude. Full rich is for closer to sea level. you should have had the mixture about 25-30% lean at 4700 feet field elevation.
Literally, there is so much gas in the mixture is ca barely ignite, and produces no power. The equivalent of a loaded up carburetor when you mash the throttle on an older four barrel when the choke is on.
You lean to elevation. Even on landing.
I enjoy your videos and compliment you for sharing the good and “bad”. Many pilots would keep this to themselves, where you decide to share so others can learn. I have flown for 33 years and most of my hours are the past 5 years (I own a DA 40 and a Grumman Tiger). I watch videos like yours for the escape/entertainment, but also for education as I always feel the more I absorb can potentially be drawn on if I ever have a situation that demands my attention. And as we all know, no two flights are alike. Thank you again! Keep it up and safe travels!
Love the vids, my sister lives down the street from FFZ and I always hope to see you above.
I am a new pilot, under 70 hours, so I am NOT an expert. I am somewhat knowledgeable on combustion engines, and I think boost, or lack there of, may have contributed to the engine flood. I see the situation as follows: High DA + low manifold pressure + immediate wide open throttle + mixture full rich = engine "bog."
There just wasn't any time to let the boost build as you would normally advance the throttle gradually. I have no clue what could've been done differently.
You handled it like a champ and I hope to one day even have the skill to apply the knowledge I am gaining from you.
Being based at a high altitude New Mexico airport, combined with our gusty winds, I agree with most that think the mixture was too rich. A low RPM, high manifold situation on the runway is the sign of an engine about to die, in this case from being flooded. Your move to reduce the mixture saved you. No flaps on a gusty day is a risky move in my opinion. It's better to land with partial flaps at a slightly slower speed and then raise them immediately after landing to dump lift. (even though some say not to touch configuration on the runway). It's been a challenge in NM this spring... unreal winds. My experiences from 20 years of flying from the up high airports. Love your videos, keep up the good work, and keep flying safe!
Full flaps on all landings period. That was drilled into our heads and was taught by my chief pilot in the late 70s at Dupage Aviation just west of Chicago. Spencer was a WWII P-51 fighter pilot. He was also an FAA designated flight examiner. His point is that the touchdown speed would have been slower, aircraft stability would have been better and the procedure is consistent. Also, leave the flaps down until you turn off the runway. The old argument that raising the flaps after touchdown puts more weight on the wheels is illogical and wrong. Once the plane is stalled on the runway, the wings are no longer producing lift and all the weight is already on the wheels. The flaps are now being used for pure drag and will slow the airplane down more efficiently. Also, leaving the flaps down until after you turn off the runway will minimize the risk of doing something stupid, like raising the gear instead of the flaps. Just watch the airliners, they leave full flaps down until they turn off as well.
daffidavit I’m sure your instructor was very good, and had a lot of great techniques, but this is wrong if you think full flaps for every landing..there are times when less than full flaps is appropriate. Also the wing isn’t stalled while rolling out on landing. The critical angle of attack isn’t exceeded, so it isn’t stalled. Airliners have lift dumping devices, so they get full weight upon touchdown. While it is good practice to not reconfigure the plane while rolling, there are times when you may need to. Wings with flaps are supporting some weight. Even stalled wings are supporting some weight. You retract flaps, you’ll get more weight on wheels. Yes you lose some aerodynamic braking, but what you gain in wheel braking ability from full weight is more significant. You just need to be careful that you don’t lose directional control or activate gear instead of flaps. Best to reconfigure when stopped if needed, but if proficient, comfortable and prepared, you can retract flaps on the rollout. It’s not good to try to apply airliner mentality to general aviation all the time, they are very different and need to be flown differently.
@@thomasaltruda I used to believe that too. But after 50 years of flying, I've tested both methods and find that my WWII mentor had taught me something that he and others like him knew better. I find that using full flaps in all situations works better than arbitrarily selecting a setting that "feels good" at the moment. But thanks for your comment, it is well argued and many will agree with you. BTW, the wing is stalled while it's rolling slowing down the runway. The critical angle of attack was reached when the wing came to a full stall at touchdown. After that point there is no longer an "angle of attack" because the wing has reached the "burble point". You can also argue that the wing isn't stalled while taxing either because the critical angle of attack hasn't been exceeded but that argument won't get you too far...
daffidavit I was made to use 90kias(172) on approach in instrument training by my CFIIs and I hated it. I fly the ILS much faster now on my own. Similarly, I never use full flaps on landing unless I’m going into a really short field. I like the control authority I have with more speed. I’ve been told both ways about raising or leaving flaps in after touchdown. Me and a bunch of guys kicked it around one rainy day and decided it doesn’t really matter. You’re either on the ground or you’re not. Unless there’s standing water and then raising the flaps could help settle the wheels down more. The wing is always producing lift if there’s a breath of wind over it. We lost two planes one afternoon to wind after lightning struck the tie down cable and broke it where those two were tied to it
@@jakeski3142 When a wing is undergoing a stall there are a lot of "breaths" of air going over it, but the airflow is not laminar, it's turbulent. Once stalled any residual lift is overcome by weight.
As a Turbo P210 driver from southern Colorado I have a lot of high winds and high density altitude. My best comment is to be careful of full rich mixture. I always leave mixture out some because a full power throttle will overwhelm the engine with fuel. There is plenty of time to bring up the mixture after a go around maneuver with increased power. My last experience was at Del Norte Colorado in the afternoon with gusty winds and wind shear on final at about 75 feet above ground. Partial flaps and increased power arrested the shear and large wing dip. Still made the runway but it was exciting, glad the engine did not flood and quit. You make great videos keep it up.
Good points. I flew at Alamosa, CO (7500 MSL) for 4 years back in the early 60's at Silver State Aviation (Gaines Schultz proprietor) during college and we never set the mixture in any of their airplanes at full rich on landing. Leaned them out by ear on run up prior to take-off.
@@3964GC I knew Gaines back in the eighties. Great guy and aviator.
Thanks for sharing. Still unable to fly due to social distancing, but your clear and concise videos make for some valuable armchair flying. Nice reward after completing a few Sporty’s lessons.
That's the only time I've watched your videos and was grateful I wasn't there...difficult conditions, well managed and appreciate the analysis and split screen too!
Nice to see you fly again and good to know that you are ok and nothing is broken!
Looks like the issue started with your GUMPS check. At that density altitude, mixture does not go full rich. Lean for best power as you would for takeoff. Old flat land habits are hard to break. Happy the bounce wasn't any higher and go around was the right call.
That's the key danger word right there - "habits" There should be no habit, only carrying out certain actions for certain confirmed reasons.
As opposed to normally aspirated engines... Turbocharged engines are always at or below sea level below pressure when below critical altitude. Therefore full rich is needed, especially if a go around is required. Too lean and it will only take seconds to burn a piston.
@@justusetpecator Except in this case 6.9 manifold pressure is so low you might see that idling at Aspen. As he opened the throttle it came up to 25 inches. Field elevation would be about 25 inches. 25 inches is less than sea level 30 inches so the engine is acting normally aspirated at that point and would need to be leaned. If the turbo was spun up it should have been closer to 30 inches. While habit is mixture rich, habit is not right in all cases. If the mixture came in with the throttle the engine should have responded. Or a slower application of throttle allowing the turbo to spin up, assuming the 6.9 didn't already have the engine flooded.
The gust might not have cooperated anyway or to put it another way lasted long enough for the engine to produce enough power to start a go around before throwing you back on the ground. My thought might be deploy spoilers as soon as the mains are on the ground so a gust doesn't pop you back in the air.
@@garycharpenter543 ... Any idea what the fuel flow was? Rich mixture is recommended by Piper for landing and go around. Especially go around, unless you want to burn a hole in the piston. At WOT full rich is a must. Popping spoilers is an interesting idea. Might even try it but I doubt if this procedure would be recommended by Piper or the FAA. So best to stay within normal procedures unless the checklist calls for something different. I mostly fly turbine engines now, except when instructing. Too bad turbines are so expensive it would be nice to dump those pistons. Thank you for the input Gary.
Full rich, DA was 5900', you pushed the throttle in fast and instantly flooded it. Leaning solved the problem but too late. 5900' DA also works for the engine as well as the wing. Next time, mixture for best power, smoother on the throttle. If the gear touches, and you maintain flying speed and accel, you'll get out of there. BTW, landing no flaps adds quite a bit of energy where you don't need it. This was not an X-wind situation, wind right down the nose. Just land it like a calm day, with flaps, and once down, get those flaps off. CFI - Kodiak AK.
Nice to see members of the Family of God back on the air. Been missing you. Very professional flying. I know now you could fly through any storm. Blessings
Nice save, and we have all had worse landings! When the power is at idle, there is very little mass airflow to spin the turbos. Also most modern turbo CMI engines are set up with a full throttle enrichment circuit, so if you firewall it, with the turbos not doing much at the high DA, then it probably was flooded.
My preference in those conditions is a full flap landing. I’m familiar with the sight picture and airspeeds, just carry half the gust factor and obviously a bunch more power. Then, when the mains are down, flaps up and speed brakes extended. Really sticks the plane to the runway. Works safely in long body mooney as its hard to confuse gear and flaps. Thanks for all the content. I enjoy your channel.
And again you proved your strong personality by showing this little mishap. Landing is the most difficult part of the flight when conditions are less than great. As you will probably be able to use the plane again it was by definition a great landing ;-) Keep it up.
Dude, watching your instincts there when the plane lifted, all I had to say was "that guy is a great pilot". The throttle not responding to you there is nothing other than freaky, but your flight skills kept you from over-anticipating that full-power state (which didn't come) which perhaps could have caused an even more dramatic stall which could have seriously hurt y'all. Really, well done.
I did my private training in Clayton, NM and Dalhart, TX... You just brought back a lot of memories... Like my first cross country solo into Dalhart on a day like that... 😳
Better to be lucky than good any day of the week. Reminds me of the time I landed on a flat tire and just like you here, being precise staying on center and flying it right to the ground saves the day. I enjoy your videos and I'm glad you guys got away without harm. Thanks for sharing a great play by play
Wow! I felt like I was bumping along right with you. Exceptional landing considering the conditions. Thankful you and your plan are ok! Thanks for explaining things to us. Love your videos!
Wow that was a rough landing due to gusts. You did a good job controlling the situation, well done and thanks fir the video. 🇬🇧💜
On your rollout on landing, you reduced the mixture and the engine came back alive. Definitely wasn’t the DA that ‘enriched the mixture’, it was at full rich. Strong work, great video!
a lot of incredible readings on the JPI gauge after touchdown happening. Makes me wonder how they are transducing those values to begin with. I doubt the rpm ever really reached 230, and the MP was way below one atmosphere, indicating a vacuum - what was it 6.5 psi at one point?
One of the reasons I rarely go full rich on my Mooney, even on cold days. I have a general idea on best power mixture setting and set accordingly. Awesome video and great job getting it on the ground safely!
We’re gonna stay here for a bit because “it’s a mess”. Best narrative I’ve heard in a long time. Glad you are safe and keep up the videos!
Don't see alot of the mainline guys show big bumbs. I know they happen but they don't show them. Thanks. Huge winds and a butt pucker landing handled perfectly!!! Thanks guys!!! Have seen a couple of your vids in the past. Get them out! We're watching!!! 👍👍👍
What a cool couple. Many flying hours ahead!
Your plane is perfect, love it and the panel! I'm planning to buy a Malibu in a year or two!
I remember Santa Rosa 40 years ago when i was in my 20's ...4 POB in a Grumman Tiger, full fuel and temperatures in the 80's. At that time you had to call the Highway Patrol to get fuel, he was the guy running the pumps back then. I still remember that take off and the stall warning going off, what a learning experience that was. That's when i realized density altitude was really a thing. LOL
To be fair flying solo with half tanks in a Grumman yields a pretty low climb rate as well... :D
I REALLY appreciate your videos. I’m sure they take a lot of time and effort. Much appreciated.
Thanks for sharing your flight with us. Quite a curve ball right at the end. Nice cool response though. You have an excellent cool-headed first officer there I see as well! :)
WOW! Some good flying there, thanks for sharing!!
Nice job! My wife's sister lives in Dalhart, hoping you were landing there. Nice little terminal. I flew from Chicago and picked my wife up there after she watched her sister after surgery. It was really windy that day and 105 at 5pm!
Ah yes. Santa Rosa. Had to divert there during my return to KFFZ from KPHN. Not a whole lot there. Thank goodness for that little FBO. Although the walk to the truck stop isn’t too bad.
Wow, you guys live an exciting life. Your videos are amazing and I guess if you keep this up, Spielberg will be looking for a new job. Thank you for sharing this with us all and please stay safe and Covid free in the future. All the Best for St Patrick's day from the UK 🇬🇧
I love seeing when things go wrong... it's great for setting expectations for hopeful future pilots. I'd seen all your videos now, and would love to see some on your flying background and more about you, your work, and why you fly. Thanks!
A bit of a scary landing. Glad it came out ok in the end and both of you made it safely. Smart move to wait it out till better winds. Saw that Katey got her license in record time. Bet you are both proud parents. Take care - God Bless and be safe. 'Spin'
Watching this, when you ran your GUMPS check and pushed the mixture rich that set off an alarm bell for me with the high density altitude. I’m not familiar with the Malibu and what’s normal for that engine but in the deep recesses of my mind and old mountain flying training full rich and high da’s aren’t friends. Glad you had the runway left to get her down and stopped and bonus points for waiting it out. Thanks for posting this. A learning experience for all.
Scary stuff. This could’ve ended a lot worse but thankfully it didn’t. Great job being a proactive pilot and not getting frazzled. Like everyone else said, it was your mixture that did that. I’m based out of APA (Field Elevation 5,800ft), we’ve had multiple incidents where the mixture is brought to full rich prior to takeoff, and the airplane typically won’t climb out as usual. I had an instructor who was on one of these incidents in a multi engine plane (Seminole). Next time lean for best power and you should be fine. I also agree with the fact that the throttle was applied too abruptly, the turbocharger has no time to suck in the air it needed, but also probably wouldn’t have worked because of the engine being flooded
That was sweaty to watch. Both you and the FO did a good job, starting with the decision to divert.
Good landing considering the conditions. I was doing a low approach in COS and when I went full throttle the engine "hickuped". I had a 737 coming up behind me that is why I was given a low approach. I was setup for landing about 10 feet up and quickly decided to put it on the ground instead of continuing the low approach. I keyed the mic and said "66N I just lost my engine". I was unable to clear the active runway and the 737 had to do a go-around. In order to clear the runway I had to do a 135 degree turn. I did not have the momentum because I had to brake to keep from running off pavement. Turns out I had flooded the engine when I went full throttle. I got the engine restarted and cleared runway with no further issues.
I no longer "slam" the throttle in. I gently go to full power.
Excellent video!
You are a brave man showing that landing. Glad it worked out.
Turbo lag... High DA, loads of fuel being dumped into the combustion chambers in a short enough period of time to cool things too much... I'm nowhere close to being the pilot you are but I know engines from a misspent youth building drag cars. A little slower on pushing the throttles up, let the turbo catch up... you're reaction to what was actually a forced landing was super understated... great recovery and very instructive video. Thank you for taking the time to post it.
I am glad you are safe brother! Good job. Love you both.
Thank you!
Outstanding Cory! Nice work!
OMG. It looks like a turbo issue. Thanks for sharing. I like your videos.
What an exciting flight, and landing! Glad it played out well for y’all and way to fly that plane! Great work!
I love that little Santa Rosa airport lol. the bathroom is always clean
Id say the captains seat in this plane aint that clean or its got some foam missing from the pucker
It was kind of cool hearing you check in with mizzou approach few days ago. Hope your time in Missouri was good. My wife and I were in our 182 en route to KC area. Safe travels and God bless!
Good to hear from you and thanks for saying "hello". We just returned yesterday and had a great time in Branson and NW Arkansas. God bless you and your family as well!
Malibu Flyer we frequent Branson and Northwest Arkansas. If you are ever back in the area my buddy is the FBO at KMAW. Cheap fuel, long runways, old army air base, and hanger space if needed. Thanks for the reply.
I have flown into Dalhart and it's always windy there as well as NE New Mexico. Lots of crabbing going on. Actually did blow off the run flying It down at Dalhartand was able to correct before the wheels touched. Enjoy your airtime
Howdy, I'm thinking about buying my first airplane next Spring/Summer '2021; and have narrowed it down to the PA32 vs PA46. I'm a member of the Piper's Owners Society (and planning to join the MPOPA (but haven't yet). Low time VFR only pilot (but plan to get IFR next year) in the Seattle area. I like the PA46 but don't want to buy 'too much plane', the PA32 seems like a better choice as a starter, but I also don't want to have to upgrade after a year or two lol :)
Just curious if you could address owning the PA46, cost of ownership / operation, REAL WORLD runway lengths, etc. Also I like the split doors of the PA32 (loading bikes and gear). How hard / easy is it to load the PA46, climb over the seats to the front, remove the rear seats, etc.
Thanks in advance. Would LOVE a RUclips to cover this lol, or just a follow up message or email.
Great video. I have had a couple similar landings in crazy winds and they are not fun at all. Good job getting it down.
I thought I would be less addicted to your videos when I finally own my own 310P but I guess that therapy went wrong. Ok, maybe it is because I sent it right into the avionics shop to get an upgrade myself. And now I am sitting here for 2 months (finger crossed) and have nothing to do :) I have no idea how nice the result will look. Yours is hard to beat. On the other hand I opted for the GFC600 and a GI275 instead of the Mid Continent Standby Instrument. I am sooo exited to see her finished :)
That will really be something when it's done! I would love to see a picture of it. Congratulations on the new Malibu!
..thanks for sharing Kory..very scary..never liked high winds or difficult conditions on approach..usually stop in Santa Rosa when driving back and forth on I-40 to California... the elevations there change dramatically...
Thanks for sharing. I don't know anything about Malibus, but when I was watching the video, I wondered if mixture full-rich was still valid at 5900ft and for a split second I flashed the connection that perhaps the video's title had to do with that small detail. Glad you are safe!
this. here in Colorado where high DA is ubiquitous , a full rich mixture on gumps is almost never used. do that at leadville and you'll be lucky to survive.
That looked pretty dicy on the landing. It’s pretty scary when you add power to do a go around and you get nothing, lose 20 mph wind speed and drop back onto the runway(nice recovery by the way) after hearing the stall warning. I’d say you got lucky you landed safely. Could have all gone bad pretty quickly. Thanks for sharing the experience.
Piper Malibu’s are turbocharged. The turbo charger makes sea level air at full power therefore you need all fuel available in order to avoid detonation ( back fire ). Going full rich at high density altitude for go around is standard procedure and necessary. Doing it rapidly after a long low power descent has caused mine to balk. Landing with a little throttle in seems to help. ( I fly a turbocharged Mooney out of Denver)
Great job, missed your videos and glad you are back.
Choosing to land without flaps was a major contributor to your problems with that landing. If you had used flaps, you would have had more drag and the airplane would have settled faster with the throttle closed at touchdown and most likely stayed down. From 1,500 lbs gross weight to 875,000 lbs gross weight I have always been trained and trained other to use flaps to land unless they're busted. In all kinds of general aviation and airline operations that has proven to be the right choice. In thousands of hours of instructing I have never advocated landing without flaps EXCEPT to practice for the time the flaps fail. The drag on that airplane, clean, in ground effect is soooo low it could easily fly hundreds of feet in ground effect with little or no power with just a few knots extra airspeed and no flaps. That's a bad thing when there's a gusty crosswind. You showed that very well. The most important function of flaps on a light airplane: increased drag. Better lift at low airspeeds and lower stall speeds are of secondary importance. But more lift lower, stall speeds and more drag are ALL very useful for any landing. I can't think of an advantage to having no flaps when dealing with gusts. No flaps means you have to carry more airspeed to the runway and have less drag to get rid of that extra airspeed. The safety of flying in gusts is not enhanced by failing to use flaps. In high wing loaded, heavy airplanes we use flaps and add half the headwind component and all of the gust factor (difference between steady wind component and the gust) to the normal no-wind landing speed. That much extra approach speed would be way overkill in a light airplane ( much lower inertia and lower wing loading) but some extra speed gives protection against gusts and using flaps provides enough drag to easily bleed off airspeed crossing the threshold and in the flare so as to keep the airplane on the ground at touchdown. When you're touching down high airspeed is not your friend. The other problem with not using flaps is that we are generally not used to the much higher pitch attitude at touchdown. If we keep the same landing attitude we use with flaps when not using flaps, we are very likely never going to get rid of airspeed during the flare. So if you don't regularly practice no-flap landings and the pitch attitude higher pitch attitude required you are putting yourself in unfamiliar territory at a time when you need your attention to keep the airplane straight and in the center of the runway. Your nose wheel was only about 8" above the pavement at the first touchdown. In that airplane, landing without flaps, the nose should have obscured the runway at touchdown. If you don't like to land with that pitch attitude - use flaps. When carrying extra airspeed due to winds it is good practice to bleed off that speed crossing threshold to keep floating to a minimum. Floating only prolongs the time you have to work to keep the airplane under control. Yep, high density altitude makes for a rich mixture. Very often it's necessary to lean for takeoff at high density altitudes. It's a practice that could destroy an engine at sea level but many engines will sputter and cough through the take off roll, loosing a lot of power if they weren't properly leaned for the density altitude. I agree with the comment that a slower, smoother application of power might have gotten a better response from the engine. It's certainly better for the engine. The drag caused by flaps would have required more power during the approach and therefore engine cooling would have been less of a factor. While we're on the subject of density altitude, high DA will increase the landing roll significantly. High DA and a no flap landing makes for a really long roll. Obviously runway length was sufficient in this case, but high DA and no flap landings should be carefully considered. And no flap landings on wet runways invites hydroplaning. Light airplanes have low tire pressure and therefore hydroplane at quite low speeds. Just not a lot of positives for no flap landings, except they're fun when conditions are acceptable for them.
Never a dull moment, good job. Down safe.
Couple of cool heads in the cockpit. Impressive.
Wow ... intense winds and mixture problems at just the wrong time ! Well done 👍
well flown.....you got her down never mind the bumpy landing and you stopped well before the end of the rwy and remained on the rwy!!!!
Well one observation. I know it was gusty and flaps should be at minimum extension but no flaps is where your trouble began. You touched down way too fast and the aircraft because of the airspeed wanted to still fly and when the gust came it lifted you up with no problem. You are lucky that the lift was not too much because the landing would not have been pretty. Thank you for sharing though. It was very cool.
So was your idle mixture off or just due to the density altitude? Stressful landing non the less. Good job staying safe 👍
It appears to be just the right combination of variables. Procedure calls for full rich regardless of DA. Two years ago I landed full rich at 10,800' DA and did a go-around due to sudden gusts with no issues at all. Conversely, I have forgotten to go full rich at high elevations and had the engine sputter as I was rolling out due to fuel starvation. This was a weird one for sure!
Okay. That landing had a pucker factor of +10. Good airmanship and decision making.
Thank you for getting me a chance to see manifold pressure sudden drop
There’s one thing about Piper, that gorgeous wing they designed for the Malibu sometimes has a mind of its own
Just caught your video....Thanks for posting. Good video!!!
I used to travel a lot through Santa Rosa. Nice blue hole for diving. Always at least briskly blowing.
Wow, what an eventful flight! Good work keeping up with it when it didn't respond as expected on the go around
When he said gusting at 51... I choked on my pizza a bit. I would be like “let’s land now, let’s pull a Sully,” because hearing that right now would be an emergency in my mind haha. I would keep a dead goose in the cockpit just in case.
I drive through Santa Rosa NM a lot and frankly, I'm surprised the whole town hasn't blown away by now.
Have a neighbor going yesterday from HUT to AEG. Due to winds (aloft and at AEG), he wisely decided to sit things out until Wednesday ((a wee bit lower wing load than what you have))
Yeah, in this country, you NEVER operate with the Mixture firewalled. It may go up there briefly during the start sequence, but thereafter is never more than 3/4 the way to full rich.
We had a guy that landed at SAF during the AOPA Fly In 2 summers ago that made the mistake of landing with the mixture firewalled and his engine QUIT before he finished rolling out (to the guffaws of locals watching his arrival)
Wind sheer and stall! Ballooned then stalled into forced landing !! Glad you made it safe..don’t push it Tim be safe 🙏🏻
Love your pronunciation of Dalhart (dullhart). Not sure if that is a Freudian slip but if so it"s appropriate (just kidding Dalhart people). It's actually pronounced like the dal in Dallas. Great video! Stay safe.
Love your airplane and all of your videos. Did you really put those window shades on your glare shield blocking your front windscreen? I get flying at the flight levels and on a IFR clearance, but you are still ultimately responsible for traffic management when in VMC even though you have ATC and ADSB IN in the cockpit.
That was a tough one. I'd say you did everything you could, given your limited options due to the low MP and then subsequent high MP and low RPMs! A nasty combination when you need a go around, but thankfully a safe, if forced, landing.
Sorry if I missed it, but what was behind the decision to land with no flaps?
Great Job staying on top of things.
At least that happening prevented you from having to do a go-around.
Things happen for a reason.
God is Good.
A safe landing is a good landing.
God Bless!
That looked really hairy and scary. Pilot was very cool through it all.
Very nicely done. I know how much work it is to assemble and edit this footage. Thanks for posting! Excellent CRM at the end, asking your FO to call your speeds.
Great video, thanks for sharing
Very nice, I was in Santa Rosa before the crazy junk started happening, though I was 80 feet under water at that point and not in the air, LOL. Blue Hole is very interesting and would be fun to hit when it's really hot out. I wish I could fly there though rather than drive, it's something I have always wanted to learn how to do and wanted to be able to take my wife for a trip at some point. Sadly she passed away last year before I could take a single lesson.
My time in a PA28RT-201T taught to keep the turbo spooled up when landing otherwise you can't get rapid power response. Also, I have to ask why you thought your air time was so precious that you disregarded the pattern and chose a long straight-in at an uncontrolled field. A little time in the pattern may have helped your throttle management in addition to improving visual traffic, "see and be seen," recognition.
My favorite RUclips channel by far!
Remember that METAR, TAF, and Winds Aloft are reported in degrees TRUE. Winds over the ASOS/ATIS/etc are reported magnetic.
So, because magnetic variation is 9 degrees east there at KDHT, that means the wind was from ~231 degrees magnetic. Runway 21 is 216 degrees magnetic. So, now you're only down to a 15-degree off-center difference instead of 30-degrees. But of course, when the wind is that strong, the direction can sometimes be a little unpredictable
aviatortrevor ... ATIS wind are magnet, plus you can see the actual winds on the PFD which is even better than forecast or reported winds.
Never seen that before.. that's scary stuff. Great job landing rubber side down with a major "what the heck" moment at *the worst* possible moment. I agree with other comments with DA + full rich, in combination with sudden full throttle, causing the flood. Next chance you get, you should pull the spark plugs and check for fouling. That there is one of those "Teachable Moments". You might want to forward this vid to Piper and ask for their input. Piper has some really great people, and they will have an answer, and maybe even a recommendation.
Btw, your daughter is quite the young pilot. Very cool to see her progress.
Nice video! I have 0 hours on a PA46, but the first thought that came to my mind during y our GUMPS check was "why mixture full at 5000 ft elevation?" that may have contributed to the engine bogged down when you applied full throttle. Again, I'm no expert.
The difference here is that it's turbo charged so you don't lean for altitude as you would in a normally aspirated engine.
@@MalibuFlyer Wrong... mixture is still going to need to be back on a turbocharged engine. Full rich is for sea level, maybe up to 1500 MSL. Above that, you should lean for cruise, then, coming in to land, just richen it up to allow EGT to come down a bit. Your best performance will always come from a properly leaned engine, whether turbocharged or naturally aspirated.
@@WilliamTeasdale You're incorrect. A turbocharger produces sea level pressure up to it's critical altitude. Takeoff, climb, and short final call for full rich.
Malibu Flyer 43 years of experience tells me otherwise. Bush flying in both turbocharged and naturally aspirated engined aircraft. Your airplane... do what you want. But it almost bit you on this one.
I agree with Bill. We fly a Piper Turbo Lance and we landed in Utah with 9,500ft. density altitude two months ago and we had to lean way back to maintain full power on approach, we had full mixture per our POH and the engine almost quit on final and put us into the side of a mountain. That's why the new checklists state "lean for best power". Experience is not kind, she gives you the test first and the lesson after.
Good save you had me fooled with “forced landing” to me that means you were off airport. Good save again!! Hopefully your door didn’t get tweaked in the wind
Most pilots are fearful of winds above 15 knots. X-winds above 10 knots even more so. So in that respect I applaud you, however, once you get above 30 knots I would seriously reconsider flying a small GA aircraft in these conditions. Even if the wind is directly down the runway the hidden danger is windshear and you probably do not have enough power to extract yourself from a situation like that on final approach or takeoff climb. Flying a large twin turbo-prop I would decline flights when winds got up above 35kts, even now flying a small heavy wing loaded jet I tap out at 35 knots. Could I do it? sure. Is the risk worth the reward? Nope. You mitigate/eliminate risk first and foremost with the decisions you make. Glad you were able to keep filling the experience bucket without draining the luck bucket. Blue skies.
WOW !
You seemed so cool about it.
GREAT video, airport diversion and landing "issues". Good job getting to SR and on the ground! !! !!!
God was looking out for you! Great video thanks for sharing.
great video. curious why you have two AP in the plane? Looks like a G500 and a KFC150?
Just one autopilot, the KFC150
@@MalibuFlyer Ok thanks.. the other controller that looks like a GFC500 must be an interface to your G3X?
@@kellyhouseholder6737 No, the controller you're seeing is a Garmin GCU 485. It's simply a remote controller for the G500TXi. I can set baro, vertical speed, altitude preselect, etc using the knobs instead of the touchscreen on the G500.
Good video. Love the detail.
I’m a student pilot (pre-solo) and no mechanic, so I’m wondering if some of the newer engines would help in this situation.
The consensus here seems to be that rich mixture caused the engine to bog/flood.
I don’t have a mixture knob in my 21 year old car, so would a full FADEC engine avoid this using electronic fuel injection and a computer + a “map” to handle mixture on behalf of the pilot?
One of my instructors is OLD SCHOOL and doesn’t trust anything with a single circuit, but I think in this case the ECU on my car has proven very reliable and I’d rather unburden myself with fuel mixture if possible to do so safely.
Thoughts?
This is an ancient ancient ancient debate. The "keep it simple, less to go wrong" versus the "new tech is reliable now, it can help" The Lycoming engine is about as medieval as it gets, but it is a KNOWN medieval, it's very well understood what the failure modes are on these engines. The trouble in this vid was a pilot error, not taking DA into account, not an engine problem.
Troy Bradley ... There is an understandable lack of knowledge about the operation of turbocharged engines. Full rich is proper procedure. The only thing I would have changed was full flaps instead no flaps. (different subject) At the point where he was gusted back into the air full power was applied, it does take a moment for the fuel controller to respond and the engine takes a moment to spin up. As the gust went away what power he did have gave him the ability to execute a controlled landing. I do not see an engine issue or a procedure issue. It simply was challenging conditions. The average pilot rarely sees those conditions. For southwest flyers, winds gusting 30 to 50 not so uncommon. Good video, lots to learn and discuss.
Eric Jon Isn’t there a full FADEC turbo engine available? Wouldn’t the computer be able to react faster than any pilot?
I’m not lazy, and I want to be the best, safest pilot I can be. But at the same time I don’t want a lack of encyclopedic knowledge and instant recall of the most obscure details to spell disaster for my passengers and myself.
I see technology as a way to mitigate pilot workload in just this type of situation, but only if it is reliable.
Thanks for the reply. I’m glad the “pilot error” chorus isn’t unanimous.
@@autophile525i - FADEC is not typically needed on a turbocharged reciprocating engines. Unless you are attempting to run the engine as efficiently as possible. There are efficiency advantages to an electronically control engine but in this situation it would not have helped much, some maybe, but not enough to really make a difference. Pilots reaction was spot on, gusted off the runway, full power go around. Gust goes away, airspeed drops instantaneously while the engine is coming up to full power, the airplane settles back down to the runway.
So to be the safest pilot you can be, study then train and practice continuously. When it comes to difficult conditions have a qualified instructor take you out and let you train in difficult conditions. (provided the conditions are within the limits of the airplane and the instructor) Technique varies between pilots. Even though technique varies good pilots will follow proper procedures and safe practices. If you do that you will have very few flights where you say I'm never doing that again.
Eric Jon Sound advice, I’m sure!
My Old School instructor would be good for that kind of practice. He learned crosswind takeoff and landing in the 70s. On a runway that cut through a pond and an orchard!
Thank you for the benefit of your experience.
Well that ending was scary. Glad you are okay.
That long wing is great for climbing.....not so much for Gusts ! Had a Malibu some years back
The issue with your power coming up was not a flooded engine. It was a too rapid advance of the throttle. Watch at 17:59 as you advance the throttle, it is fully up by 18:00, much too fast. On a big bore Conti, especially a turbo charged one, it should take between 4 and 6 seconds to go from idle to full throttle. It is a deliberate movement not a shove. I know this can be hard when you've got lizard brain during a go-around, but with practice you can get the cadence right. Of note is the fact that you don't need full smash right away for a go-around. You're at 90 knots and already airborne. All you need is enough to keep you airborne in ground effect while the turbo spools. 15" - 20" of manifold should be plenty. For me the steps for a go around are, handful of power to stop the descent, mixture set for climb out, then deliberately advance the throttle to full.
I think you might have figured this one out. Great advice, thank you.
@@MalibuFlyer As others have said this was an issue of density altitude and mixture control.. I also agree with others that noted that partial flaps should have been used. I don't know where the switch is for your speed brakes. Mine is on my yoke. In conditions such as this as soon as my mains touch, I flip the speed brakes on. During taxiing in high gusty winds I leave the speed brakes deployed till I get to my hangar. They are great for killing lift and keeping the wind from lifting a wing during taxi. Nice job!! Enjoyed the video
That's keeping a cool cerebellum, sir. Well done, and the same to your passenger.
Always learning from you - thanks for sharing!
Great Vid! What app/program are you using to show crosswind/wind calculations?
I'd like to know too. Good job.
it’s called HMC Crosswind Calculator
why did you turn yoke to the right on the takeoff roll??? sshould be past P torque