$7,000 VariMu Limiter vs $125 Digital Limiter Worth It (Mastering Engineer Edition)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- ⭐ STEM MASTERING MASTERCLASS - www.panoramama...
📧 The BEST newsletter for working audio professionals who strive for more! Subscribe here - www.panoramama...
🎹 Proud of your mix? AWESOME! Get a fresh set of ears on board for mastering and let’s work together! - panoramamaster...
🛠️ Mastering Template for ProTools, Logic and Ableton- www.panoramama...
--
Hello, I'm Nicholas Di Lorenzo, Studio Owner, Mixing and Mastering engineer at Panorama Studios.
I'm an Italian-Australian born and raised in Melbourne. I've been a creative professional for 10 years managing some pretty awesome projects for artists, labels and producers all around the globe.
What motivates and drives me?
My family,
Good food,
Great coffee.
You can find me on many platforms:
Instagram: / panorama_mastering
Facebook: / panoramamastering
Twitter: / panoramamasters
Kit: kit.co/Panoram...
Very clear & excellent demonstration on the difference in result. It’s impressive to see that it’s still impossible to get the option of competitive loudness without a clipper or limiter in the digital domain. The Manley track sounded congealed and glued together with saturated excitement. The digital sounded clear & well- defined. I know with those Manley units, their frequency non-linearities vary significantly with input level (EQ unit included). I could not see myself only using the Manley for level limiting but it really shined in its low level compression & the shape it gives to a track (but you may not want all of the saturation/excitement). Thanks for the video!
Great observations! My pleasure! Thanks for watching!
Your channel is great. thanks for all the hard work making these videos It is much appreciated!
My pleasure!
i love your channel bro simply one of the most scientific audio channels ive seen would love to work with you one day
Thanks man; and hell yea! that would be cool!
Analogue sounded more musical, they usually do with vocals. Not sure why you didn't put the clipper before the limiter to get rid of the peaks, that would have made the Vari-Mu detected a quieter mix and pushed it louder than -10 no? That is what I see many people do, get rid of peaks to stop limiters being effected by them. Sometimes people do it manually in RX, or just put a clipper on.
This is great! A couple things to consider - I'm guessing the Manley has separate processing applied to the left and right channels and I can hear the image open up a bit as a result. You might try increasing the Stereo Independence in Maximizer so that both transient and sustain are at 100%. Another thing to try is the Ozone Vintage Limiter, which is modeled after the Fairchild 670. It has some of that soft knee goodness and vibe along with true peak limiting, so maybe best of both worlds! Love seeing the difference on quiet sections, that's huge.
Thanks for watching! Defintely! I'm keen to see how that vintage limiter interacts with various levels of input; is it like a typical Triode whereby the input signal has a direct effect on the negative/bias voltage; as the input signal increases; so too does the ratio of relative gain reduction as it leans into the ceiling of the limiter?
Hi Nicholas. I've listened this example in my studio on the same Neumann monitors. As far as the RUclips codec allows to hear it, the digital version is lacking depth, punch and 3d feeling below 250hz. Nice job!
Thanks for sharing!
Isn't clipping the AD/DA a more sophisticated way? Great video, the Manley sounds so gooood! 😍
Intersting observation; I used to clip my converters; and had a long-held (This is the best way) to get things loud; but as time goes on; there are many tools, processes and techniques at our disposal; I don't beleive it's more sophisticated; it's just "different"
What were your settings on the Manley? Threshold at 9oclock? Attack and Release?
The Vari-Mu made me dance, while Ozone made it loud and probably kept the integrity of the mix better. But the whole point of dance music is to make you dance. So I preferred the Manley.
Att, Release FAST, Thresh 3'oclock (Pointing right)
@@panorama_mastering thanks, I'll give this a try with Acustica Magenta and see if I like it 🙏🏾☺️
I don’t understand why you’re comparing these. I have a Vari-Mu as well. It’s not the same thing as a digital limiter and should never be assumed to function as such. Brickwall digital limiting uses an Infinity:1 ratio. The Manley is 10:1 if I’m not mistaken when in limiting, maybe 12:1, don’t remember off the top of my head. Not even remotely the same thing. Limiting just means a compressor with a ratio of 10:1 or higher. A more meaningful comparison would be to compare, say, the Bettermaker Limiter to a digital plug-in, those are actually doing the same job. This is apples and oranges.
Check 04:03 where I both plot the curves in Plugin doctor and the ones published by manley;
It's not 10:1.
I'm comparing these; because I was curious how the limiting function would perform.
@@panorama_mastering My apologies, I was incorrect about the ratio values, it’s actually way less. 4:1 on Limit, 1.5:1 on Compress. Although as you point out, that scales up as you drive it, but only to 20:1 at maximum reduction in Limit mode, which in a limiting context on a stereo mix would just never be a realistic gain reduction amount. And you never show the VU meters on the Manley, so I have no point of reference here. So to that end, I don’t really see the point of comparing this to a digital limiter that has a brickwall ratio and functions completely differently. Even in turning of true peak it’s not the same thing. There is no literature in the Ozone ecosystem that says anything about the ratio drastically reducing with true peak off. You say in the beginning that both the digital and analog scale to infinity:1 ratio as the signal approaches the ceiling … which is just patently false in this case. Literally have the Manley manual sitting in front of me on the screen and the box sitting in front of me in my desk.
Your title is total click bait, and fair play, I get the RUclips hustle, but it’s specifically about comparing a $7000 limiter to a $125 limiter that… don’t do the same thing. The price difference is irrelevant. I would never begrudge your practical curiosity at the functional differences, just the way it’s being framed here, particularly “worth it”.
And by the way, the more telling Plug-In Dr section is the second time you pull it up at 7:39 where you see that the Manley doesn’t catch the initial transient - which I would never expect it to, it’s slow as hell. So again, you’re comparing apples to oranges dude.
If this was framed as an explanation between analog & digital limiting, or even more specifically VariMu vs Digital Limiting (because there are plenty of analog limiters that do exactly what Ozone does, again, Bettermaker), then this video absolutely does that! But the bottom line is I clicked on the video because of the title and because I own said $7000 limiter, and I wanted to see what it was all about.
I’m sorry, I’m not trying to be that mingy a*shole in the comment section, but this is false advertising 😢
@@SylvanPaul I really appreciate your feedback; so I hope this longer winded response isn't taken as rebuttal; because I seriously appreciate your input and have given all your points great consideration; Here's my response;
Fair enough; I did get lazy on shooting a second angle regarding my parameters and metering on the unit; that's my bad. No two ways about it.
Turning off true peak is not the same thing you're correct; the ratio doesn't change with true peak off on Ozone; it just oversamples the peak-detection module in the DSP for more accurate signal tracking to prevent overs; I've documented this well and had this confirmed by the iZotope team; Did I miss-speak on this point?
Regarding the ∞:1 ratio; you're right I do say that; and that is an oversimplification and lazy on my behalf as anything from 10:1 and above limiting;
Fair enough on the comments with the title; there's no downplaying that on my end. I've taken your feedback and adjusted the title more accordingly to your recommendation; VariMu vs Digital Limiting
You're not being a mingy a*shole! You're doing exactly what I appreciate most from my subs; I love teaching, exploring and learning myself; being called out on my shit helps me do better!
@@panorama_mastering Respect 👊🏼 I don’t think you mispoke regarding the true peak. My impression was that you turned it off in an attempt to more closely match the “floating ceiling” peaking style of analog. I am curious though, just to clarify, are you saying that turning true peak OFF turns on oversampling? Or turning it ON does? Cuz my instict would be to think that turning on true peak initiates the oversampling. But I don’t use the Ozone limiters that much so I’m not as well-versed in their under the hood functionality. Thanks!
Turning true peak limiting on will oversample the sidechain signal path which feeds the peak detection module;
The low end on the manley is grooving nicer and it also tucked the hi hat in a nice way. Digital felt a little stiff, although the drums were likely a bit more 'true' to the og mix.
Yeah; I like using the manley to gel the low end on some mixes when it comes in a bit too flabby;
In my opinion the comparison is...THE HARDWARE IS THE PHOTO...the digital, is A "PAINTING" OF THE PHOTO! So...would you like the " actual picture or a painting. ?
Interesting analogy! I like it!
The analogue limiter sounded better to me. It was more alive and like it was surrounding me. It's interesting how with analogue, you place the limiter before the clipper. Yet with digital, it's usually the limiter after the clipper. I wonder if it would sound even better using an analogue clipper, something like the dangerous, or clipping the converter? Reducing digital processing seems like a bonus.
Nice observation; and it's possible to use analog clippers; definitely something for me to try out!
Hey, hey !...
Am i spotting a coffee right over there too close to the gear ?
And yeah the analog had more snappines.
But not only that, it also had way much more depth... like separation of all the individual sounds.(could be just that edge on some mixes maybe )
The digital sounded more glued together as a whole.
Haha empty cup ;)
Thanks for watching mate!
The comparison between analog vs digital is always fun to see, but the cost ceiling between the two makes it irrelevant for most people. The digital sounds great and I don't have to take out a loan to have that option. Would you do a video about how you acquired your gear? It just seems so impossible to have a studio like this without having a high paying job and then deciding to do music or is mixing/mastering truly that lucrative when you find a lane and create the service?
Yeah; more than happy to do that!
Good job in bringing understanding and some interesting ideas to a complicated subject
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!
Awesome stuff! Happy to see this thanks so much
Glad you enjoyed it! My pleasure!
Love the Manley hardware a bit better... not a huge difference though. Oh, by the way, I would suggest to adjust the consistent level of your voice in your videos. Everytime there's music it jumps out and I have to bring down the level and then raise again when you talk. Thanks for your channel and for sharing top content, love it!
Thanks mate! And YES ! I agree; I get lazy on my edits; you're not the first one to flag this; I need to leave a post-it note on my laptop to gain down the music!
i used them (digital) for trial analog simulation learning, because I don't have that stuff. sometimes thes plugins are useful too as neural machine (cheapest sidechain🥶)
Would love one of these Manley units! Whatever you put in it comes out juicier haha! Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks. Gonna try a clipper after the RND MBC built in limiter.
Let me know how you go!
Very interesting, thank you, i would like to see a comparison with the bettermaker limiter
This is a totally different beast from the bettermaker- but I’d agree I’d love to see a bettermaker vs plugin- as that would be a more apples to apples comparison
Anyone know people at bettermaker that could send me a unit? haha... I don't have a bettermaker; I'm not too familiar with them;
@@panorama_mastering I was just emailing them recently to find out about the darth limiter they made awhile ago. It seems pretty spectacular honestly. Im told all of the new ones have the upgraded signal path of the darth limiter series
plug-in sound like $125 customers. it would have been interesting to compare with the original mix to realize even more of the difference . Merci pour votre vidéo .
Great suggestion for next time! Definitely!
I was about to comment in some of your videos to make a video about analog and digital limiter and here it is already 😅 much appreciate it. Also would you be willing to try the better maker limiter sometime?
Happy to help! !!
Well done! Now I need a Vari Mu.
Haha ! Enjoy!
I much prefer the Manley result. Soft knee of any sort always sounds more musical to me as it "moves" with the signal - that said, I'm not a fan of soft clipping! 🙃
Me too!
I liked the analog more, it just enhanced the life in the mix
Some people don't prefer enhancing but keep the original sound
I agree! And there would be some clients of mine; that if I used the analog limiter and changed the tone as much as I did; they'd chop my head off!
For this one; me too!
Maybe that’s why some engineers like clipping the A/D on the way back in?🤷🏻
Possibly so!
What was the converter used?
Antelope Orion.
I wish the focus is using each piece to where it sounds best. Sod the meters. They sound loud but really kill the track..
I hear you; that's fair enough!
Hi Panorama,I love and share all of your videos to colleagues of mine and the context you bring behind any analysis you do is so invaluable. Just a couple of questions for you if you dont mind expanding on the techniques displayed here:
Have you tried using a TP limiter after the Manley limiter instead of a clipper? Even with a -0.1dBFS margin of error I wonder how effective a TP limiter would be in handling the peaks left behind after the analog limiting. What differences would you anticipate between using true peak limiting and highly oversampled hard clipping?
Also, if using plugin emulations of the Manley Vari-Mu such as the UAD version, how replicable would “analog-style limiting” be in the box? Are there significant difference in the knee shaping with different input/threshold relationship as well as the amount of leftover peak information?
Ill definitely experiment and attempt to answer these on my end but would greatly appreciate your insight given your expertise on mastering tools and True Peak detection. Thank you again!!
Hey Thanks for watching!
Have you tried using a TP limiter after the Manley limiter instead of a clipper? No I haven't tried that; I believe (Haven't tested yet) that a TP limiter will simply squash all that snappiness back down; that's why I opted for a clipper.
RE: Emulations
I think the UAD emulation and also the MJUC emulation are incredible true to the sound of an analog VariMu, I've in previous video's done A/B comparisons of the MJUC to the Vari-MU and was surprise by the results and they way it reacted to input signals.
Warmly,
N.
whats up with your keyboard :P. Did you wrap it in cling film to keep doritos crumbs out?
I have a disease where I never take the plastic packaging off electronic devices.... I had to bring in my computer to the mac store where one of my clients works and he was pissing himself laughing when the tech removed the plastic from the keyboard because he knows I notoriously keep that on there;
@@panorama_mastering hahaha oh no.
Thanks again for another great comparison... i've only had the chance to listen via my earbuds on the handy for now. Maybe tat's vodoo, but i think the analog one sounds a bit wider in terms of the stereo field?🤔
Thanks for watching! Let me know when you listen on a proper system too!
@@panorama_mastering Hey Nicholas,
now i had the time to listen to it in the studio. I still love the analog vibe more than the digital. Digital is not bad, but sounds "smaller" so to speak... i think especially percussive sounds like the "clap" sounds much wider in the stereofield. Definately, it was no vodoo! :-)
All the best from Germany,
Sebastian
The low end really shines on the Manley. Super interesting.
Interesting observation!
Great video!
Did you hardclip or softclip when using the analog limiter? Thank you !
Hard clip. He used soft clip mode but didn't move the slider so it is still a hard clipper.
Hardclip.
Great video
Thanks mate!
You are kinda distributing the transients across the spectrum as you clip so I think it's bound to be snappier one way or the other using that chain. I can't prefer either one though, both work for me. Great video, man.
You are correct That's the exact reason why I chose to integrate clipping into that process; thanks for watching!
Honestly analog sounds way better
My thoughts too!
The Hum Audio LAAL limiter sounds noticeably better than the digital limiters when compared head to head, but man, that's a pricey beast.
The only analog limiter I would ever buy is the HUM Audio LAAL.
Nice shout! Never seen this unit before;
@@panorama_mastering Man it sounds fucking amazing. I wish i could afford one lol
where is my post?Btw that stepped digital waveform is false.... even with a few sample points digital waveform reconstruction is smooth. Also try a clipper and saturation before digital limiter and post tge results.... 7k for a little snap??
Which post? Digital waveform reconstruction is SMOOTH; you're correct; I was referencing the data differences at low sample rates (44.1 and 48k) in which the detection circuit reads the discrete values from; see the video I did on TP limiting that goes into it on more detail;
Yes; I could have added some clipping and saturation before the limiter; but my aim was to see how far I could push the analog one; digital limiters have so many other parameters and features sets I could pull at to a multitude of things;
P.s towards the end; it shows the softer passages of the material and how that knee effects the macroloudness across the track;
🫡🫡🫡
Thanks mate!